On Saturday, June 10, 2023 at 7:34:35 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
> On Sat, 10 Jun 2023 11:08:42 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
> <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Saturday, June 10, 2023 at 12:10:20?PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
> >> https://amgreatness.com/2023/06/05/mike-rowe-is-on-a-mission-to-reverse-the-unspeakable-stupidity-of-devaluing-work/
> >>
> >> He's right. Not everybody can play the college-essay game, and we
> >> don't need millions of artists and sociologists and film-makers
> >> surviving as Uber drivers and baristas.
> >>
> >> "America is lending money it doesn't have to kids who can’t pay it
> >> back to train them for jobs that no longer exist. That’s nuts."
> >>
> >> We do need more electronics and manufacturing techs, more good HVAC
> >> and auto mechanics, more good IT support people, more good PCB layout
> >> people.
> >
> >Have you ever attended any kind of vocational training?
> I did visit the controls class at Sierra College. They were doing
> really cool stuff. The class project was to build a control system
> with motors and sensors and stuff. They machined the mechanical parts,
> did their own PCB design and layout and assembly, wrote the code.
>
> I bet the average MIT EE grad doesn't know how to drill a hole or
> solder.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIhk9eKOLzQ

The video creator is a sh_t-for-brains low-life.

Get back to us when you find a school with this track record:

https://www.businessinsider.com/compaines-founded-by-mit-grads-2014-8

Hardly a complete or even significant list...

Kind of mind boggling that back in the day, as in 19th century, four year graduates would start a major firm like this with BIG projects:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_%26_Webster

There are hundreds more...and don't forget the chief scientist at Ting was an MIT grad too.

https://www.tingfire.com/company-product/electrical-fire-safety-in-the-home-tings-deep-roots/

On Sun, 11 Jun 2023 06:43:04 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
<bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, June 10, 2023 at 7:34:35?PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
>> On Sat, 10 Jun 2023 11:08:42 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
>> <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >On Saturday, June 10, 2023 at 12:10:20?PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
>> >> https://amgreatness.com/2023/06/05/mike-rowe-is-on-a-mission-to-reverse-the-unspeakable-stupidity-of-devaluing-work/
>> >>
>> >> He's right. Not everybody can play the college-essay game, and we
>> >> don't need millions of artists and sociologists and film-makers
>> >> surviving as Uber drivers and baristas.
>> >>
>> >> "America is lending money it doesn't have to kids who can’t pay it
>> >> back to train them for jobs that no longer exist. That’s nuts."
>> >>
>> >> We do need more electronics and manufacturing techs, more good HVAC
>> >> and auto mechanics, more good IT support people, more good PCB layout
>> >> people.
>> >
>> >Have you ever attended any kind of vocational training?
>> I did visit the controls class at Sierra College. They were doing
>> really cool stuff. The class project was to build a control system
>> with motors and sensors and stuff. They machined the mechanical parts,
>> did their own PCB design and layout and assembly, wrote the code.
>>
>> I bet the average MIT EE grad doesn't know how to drill a hole or
>> solder.
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIhk9eKOLzQ
>
>The video creator is a sh_t-for-brains low-life.

My experience is mostly with UC Berkeley and Stanford EE grads, but
the results are similar. Most of them don't understand electicity and
many are afraid of it. Few can coherently explain their senior
project. That's a good test, after the 9K:1K voltage divider
challenge: tell me about your senior project.

I did a tour of the Cornell EE department and counted screens. I saw
22 computer monitors and one oscilloscope. Laptops paid for by
students are cheaper than labs with benches and equipment.

On 6/10/2023 4:13 PM, John Larkin wrote:
> On Sat, 10 Jun 2023 01:32:38, Wanderer<dont@emailme.com> wrote:
>
>> While I agree with you that our education system does a lousy job of helping people find their place in the world, where they can earn a living and build a life for themselves. And I agree with you that the meritocracy devalues skills compared to knowledge, even though skills can be harder to obtain and more useful in the long run than knowledge. But skills can become obsolete very quickly. I got my start in engineering as a PCB designer on computer, while there were still drafters working by hand to maintain existing designs.
>
> I kept a few tape-and-mylar examples to show to the kids. I don't miss
> that at all.
>
> I still sometimes draw schematics on D-size paper and give them to my
> layout guy to enter. I enjoy drawing; I have a big wooden drafting
> table with a giant window with a view.
>
>> I would use these scanning tables to convert hand drawn schematics into computerized ones, slowly putting people out of work. What happens to your PCB designers when they get replaced by AI?
>
> I doubt that AI can do decent PCB layouts. Autorouters are still
> pretty bad and auto-place really sucks.
>
> Flux now claims AI capability. Flux.ai. It will be interesting to see
> if they survive.
>
>>
>> The reason for these over-priced community college degrees is that high school degrees are almost worthless.
>
> There was a guy, used to post here, teaches industrial automation, a
> 2-year program, at Sierra College. We visited one of his classes. It
> was awesome. He said that 100% of his grads get job offers, running
> factories and such. One his grads, a girl, runs the gigantic Budweiser
> brewery near Sacramento.
>
>> All a high school proves is that you achieved minimum basic skills, and then the education is not equivalent among the students. We should end high school after the 10th grade. You've achieved minimum basic skills. Then hand out tuition vouchers for two to four year schools with advanced degrees that will mean something on a resume. And yes we should include skill training but it needs include a general enough knowledge base to last a lifetime. Having the state pay for education up front, allows them to negotiate costs up front instead of dealing with this nonsense of uncontrolled borrowing.
>> We should get kids into college earlier and get the alcohol off campus. Get kids
>> into the workforce at a younger age and get more kids to go for advanced degrees.
>
> One reason to go to college is to learn to drink beer. But that's not
> worth graduating $200K in debt.
>
>
>

But the fact is that most people going to 4 year colleges aren't going
200k into debt getting English degrees, anthropology degrees, or degrees
in underwater basket weaving.

You can see what they're doing and the liberal arts ranks pretty far
down the list:

<https://www.statista.com/statistics/185334/number-of-bachelors-degrees-by-field-of-research/>

The lure of being "white collar" is strong and despite rising interest
rates and a few well-publicized layoffs the white collar world economy
is still roaring, there has rarely been a better time to be in finance,
biomed, business, marketing, accounting, engineering, etc.

It shows in that the housing market in the Boston area is still plenty
hot with people making 700k cash offers on 2 bedroom gutjobs with no
garage 30 miles outside the city. The white collar world has wealth to
burn, it's not very many baristas with English degrees making those
offers, or very many auto mechanics, either.

On 6/10/2023 10:13 PM, Don Y wrote:
> On 6/10/2023 2:18 PM, bitrex wrote:
>> Nah but if you want more people to get educated towards entering a
>> given field, and there's a dearth of employees and an urgent need for
>> the work, then Econ 101 says once the pay goes up commensurate to the
>> need people will show up to do it.
>
> This is the perennial
> "we-need-more-guest-workers-cuz-we-can't-find-people-to-
> do-these-jobs"  (so, lets rewrite child labor laws to solve the problem!
> After all, we VALUE FAMILIES -- even if they end up suffering injuries
> or forfeiting their childhoods!!)
>
>> "CTE, and skilled trade professions, need a public relations makeover
>> and a champion. "
>>
>> Shouldn't the market adjust? IMO money is an easy sell, shouldn't need
>> a PR campaign to get people interested in money.
>
> Perception too often drives reality.  I'm sure dairy farmers THOUGHT that
> they had to (conspire to) keep costs down to keep their products
> affordable.
> But, lo and behold, when something affected the entire industry AND THEIR
> COMPETITORS SIMILARLY FACED INCREASED COSTS, the market still managed to
> exist -- albeit with some likely changes.
>
> Is a sheepskin from X "worth more" than one from Y?  Will it command a
> higher
> pay (or level of respect/responsibility)?  Who wants to roll those dice
> given that the results will likely be severely decoupled from the decision
> (and likely costly to reverse)?
>
> "Nobody ever got fired for buying IBM..."
>
The statistics show that most kids going to college aren't going to get
"useless degrees", conservatives are living in the past (if it was ever
true.)

4 year college enrollment is down something like 20% over the past
decade with community college enrollment down 40%.

Most of the kids that haven't bailed on college already are shooting to
become managers, not baristas with English Lit degrees. That's an
understandable decision, being a manager has rarely paid better or
required less work.

On 6/10/2023 7:47 PM, John Larkin wrote:

>> Nah but if you want more people to get educated towards entering a given
>> field, and there's a dearth of employees and an urgent need for the
>> work, then Econ 101 says once the pay goes up commensurate to the need
>> people will show up to do it.
>
> Any time you fight supply and demand, it fights back.

Yeah, like dieting. Better to just stay fat.

>>
>> "CTE, and skilled trade professions, need a public relations makeover
>> and a champion. "
>>
>> Shouldn't the market adjust? IMO money is an easy sell, shouldn't need a
>> PR campaign to get people interested in money.
>
> Mexican construction guys and house cleaners can make $100 an hour
> here.
>

The media tends to pick the biggest idiots they can find to run a story
on to represent whatever generation they're trying to slur, Gen Z I
guess in the case of recent grads. "I spent 500k on my two anthropology
degrees and have four kids by four baby daddies, how will I ever get out
of debt?! Help me Biden!" will serve to get clicks but isn't the reality
of most college grads, as you can see from the stats.

Something like 50% of college debt is held by PhD grads, it's hard to
get too riled up over the fate of their debt repayment they chose that
life, and almost nobody I know of who didn't have parents with a good
chunk of scratch, and/or a spare family home to fall back on, backing up
their decision, went into academia.

On 6/11/2023 7:39 AM, bitrex wrote:
> But the fact is that most people going to 4 year colleges aren't going 200k
> into debt getting English degrees, anthropology degrees, or degrees in
> underwater basket weaving.
>
> You can see what they're doing and the liberal arts ranks pretty far down the
> list:
>
> <https://www.statista.com/statistics/185334/number-of-bachelors-degrees-by-field-of-research/>

NUMBER of degrees says nothing about the cost (or value) of those degrees.

Going into business doing "landscaping" work, here, is roughly a $75-100K
income level -- with little more than a pickup truck as your "investment"
(and that can be written off as a business expense).

Working *as* a landscaper drops that to the $15K ballpark.

No degree (or trade school!) required.

But, you need to be willing (and able) to work outdoors all the time
(very few indoor opportunities for landscapers).

Folks spending stupid amounts of money on degrees (or "training") are
in need of better counseling. Do you blame the *business* that willingly
lets you buy a useless item? Or, do you blame the friends and family members
who SHOULD have the individual's best interest at heart?

[I've had friends/neighbors often ask me to talk to their kids about their
curriculum choices and career plans -- I guess I'm seen as more "relatable"
than Mom/Dad (who OBVIOUSLY have some ulterior motive to interfere with their
"happiness")]

> The lure of being "white collar" is strong and despite rising interest rates
> and a few well-publicized layoffs the white collar world economy is still
> roaring, there has rarely been a better time to be in finance, biomed,
> business, marketing, accounting, engineering, etc.
>
> It shows in that the housing market in the Boston area is still plenty hot with
> people making 700k cash offers on 2 bedroom gutjobs with no garage 30 miles
> outside the city. The white collar world has wealth to burn, it's not very many
> baristas with English degrees making those offers, or very many auto mechanics,
> either.

People pay ridiculous amounts for all sorts of things -- because they convince
themselves that they *have to* have them. (or, let advertisers/society do that
for/TO them) And, willingly accept the notion of "debt" as a means of getting
those things (without ever figuring the actual cost).

$5 for a CUP OF COFFEE (to give that barista a JOB)??? <rolls eyes>

On 6/11/2023 8:00 AM, bitrex wrote:
> On 6/10/2023 10:13 PM, Don Y wrote:
>> On 6/10/2023 2:18 PM, bitrex wrote:
>>> Nah but if you want more people to get educated towards entering a given
>>> field, and there's a dearth of employees and an urgent need for the work,
>>> then Econ 101 says once the pay goes up commensurate to the need people will
>>> show up to do it.
>>
>> This is the perennial "we-need-more-guest-workers-cuz-we-can't-find-people-to-
>> do-these-jobs"  (so, lets rewrite child labor laws to solve the problem!
>> After all, we VALUE FAMILIES -- even if they end up suffering injuries
>> or forfeiting their childhoods!!)
>>
>>> "CTE, and skilled trade professions, need a public relations makeover and a
>>> champion. "
>>>
>>> Shouldn't the market adjust? IMO money is an easy sell, shouldn't need a PR
>>> campaign to get people interested in money.
>>
>> Perception too often drives reality.  I'm sure dairy farmers THOUGHT that
>> they had to (conspire to) keep costs down to keep their products affordable.
>> But, lo and behold, when something affected the entire industry AND THEIR
>> COMPETITORS SIMILARLY FACED INCREASED COSTS, the market still managed to
>> exist -- albeit with some likely changes.
>>
>> Is a sheepskin from X "worth more" than one from Y?  Will it command a higher
>> pay (or level of respect/responsibility)?  Who wants to roll those dice
>> given that the results will likely be severely decoupled from the decision
>> (and likely costly to reverse)?
>>
>> "Nobody ever got fired for buying IBM..."
>
> The statistics show that most kids going to college aren't going to get
> "useless degrees", conservatives are living in the past (if it was ever true.)

How does a customer (student) KNOW that the degree he is BUYING from
organization X will have value to justify its cost? When I was going
to school (in beantown), we sat around trying to name as many schools as
possible "in the area". ISTR about *50*.

Aside from Tufts, MIT and Harvard, I'd be hard-pressed to give you an
assessment of their relative merits vs. costs/investments.

Does Wellesley give you a good education? Or, just improve your
chances of landing a successful *man*? Where does BU sit on that
list? BC? etc.

Can you find authoritative costs (factoring in likely financial aid)
for each AFTER you've assessed the values of their degrees?

Look around at the schools that operate out of old supermarkets
and other similar edifices (none of which exude ideas of permanence).

> 4 year college enrollment is down something like 20% over the past decade with
> community college enrollment down 40%.
>
> Most of the kids that haven't bailed on college already are shooting to become
> managers, not baristas with English Lit degrees. That's an understandable
> decision, being a manager has rarely paid better or required less work.

Who would WANT to be a manager given the types of people you'd invariably
have to *manage* (and whose performance would reflect on YOUR job performance)?

Students tend not to understand what "work" is about. There's no time off
for "teachers conferences", summer break, etc. You can't decide to skip
a class/exam and hope to make up for it <somehow>. You're now an *adult*,
not an overgrown baby.

On 6/11/2023 8:25 AM, Don Y wrote:
> Who would WANT to be a manager given the types of people you'd invariably
> have to *manage* (and whose performance would reflect on YOUR job performance)?

(old) Neighbor used to be a manager at Target. And, was proud of this!
("I'm important!")

We chuckled when we saw him rounding up shopping carts in the parking lot...

On Sunday, June 11, 2023 at 10:39:55 AM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:

> But the fact is that most people going to 4 year colleges aren't going
> 200k into debt getting English degrees, anthropology degrees, or degrees
> in underwater basket weaving.
>
> You can see what they're doing and the liberal arts ranks pretty far
> down the list:

But the liberal arts is where we get the literati; all the worthwhile writing in
the world (pre-ChatGPT) was honed by the liberal arts coursework, perhaps in the
sidelines of folk doing other degrees. Authors and editors, and video
producers and musicians... our world would be poorer without those
skills that can be implanted in young adults during an academic year,
or written into comprehensible books... to educate generations yet unborn.

Steinmetz, Terman, Shockley, Grove, Horowitz and Hill... they're on my bookshelves.

On 6/11/2023 11:45 AM, whit3rd wrote:
> On Sunday, June 11, 2023 at 10:39:55 AM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
>
>> But the fact is that most people going to 4 year colleges aren't going
>> 200k into debt getting English degrees, anthropology degrees, or degrees
>> in underwater basket weaving.
>>
>> You can see what they're doing and the liberal arts ranks pretty far
>> down the list:
>
> But the liberal arts is where we get the literati; all the worthwhile writing in
> the world (pre-ChatGPT) was honed by the liberal arts coursework, perhaps in the
> sidelines of folk doing other degrees.

That ^^^

There's no reason you can't have coursework that isn't ALL "hard sciences".
However, it's dubious that there is much practical value of a degree in
"English Lit" or "Philosophy" -- at least not in large numbers.

[Even fiziks degrees are of limited commercial value]

"What do you expect to DO with that degree?"

> Authors and editors, and video
> producers and musicians... our world would be poorer without those
> skills that can be implanted in young adults during an academic year,
> or written into comprehensible books... to educate generations yet unborn.
>
> Steinmetz, Terman, Shockley, Grove, Horowitz and Hill... they're on my bookshelves.

R Crumb, G Shelton, J Lynch, C Adams, etc.

John Larkin wrote:
>
> https://amgreatness.com/2023/06/05/mike-rowe-is-on-a-mission-to-reverse-the-unspeakable-stupidity-of-devaluing-work/
>
> He's right. Not everybody can play the college-essay game, and we
> don't need millions of artists and sociologists and film-makers
> surviving as Uber drivers and baristas.
>
> "America is lending money it doesn't have to kids who can’t pay it
> back to train them for jobs that no longer exist. That’s nuts."
>
> We do need more electronics and manufacturing techs, more good HVAC
> and auto mechanics, more good IT support people, more good PCB layout
> people.
>

Most EEs now end up working process at defense contractors as "systems
engineers". There are FPGA and hardware people still but that takes
too long and does not survive the contracts process. I submit that a
$10k per unit product is all but officially extinct without a patron.

Here's hoping for said patron's heart health.

IT support is being utterly hollowed out. I spent most of the week
watching a small ad hoc team trying to get past permissions and
licensing to *get my email working*. Great people pushing some
invisible, variable sized boulder up an imaginary mountain.

But mainly, the dominant force in capitalism now is the merger and
that applies debt to the acquired. It's "technology on the halfsies". so
the kids do what could be done in a medium sized board as a software
stack on some gigahoochie processor.

I hope there's some "maker" style ecosystem to support the production of
board layout pros because the number of people who understand even the
basics of a transmission line seem very thin on the ground to me.

M&A is burning the marble of the temples into quicklime to bury the dead.

> ---------------
>
> Have you noticed that many excellent PCB layout people are dyslexic?
> They are great with geometry but bad with words. This shows up as bad
> text placement and spelling (PARTS NOT USE) and inattention to
> reference designators. That's one reason that women are usually better
> at PCB layout. Boys are about 3x more likely to be dyslexic than
> girls, and things like PCB layout may selectively attract dyslexics.
>

--
Les Cargill

On 6/16/2023 7:48 PM, Les Cargill wrote:
> Most EEs now end up working process at defense contractors as "systems
> engineers". There are FPGA and hardware people still but that takes
> too long and does not survive the contracts process. I submit that a
> $10k per unit product is all but officially extinct without a patron.
>
> Here's hoping for said patron's heart health.

There are still a fair number of products in the 10K *and up* range.
But, their markets are usually far better understood AND the folks
making the decisions are considerably more savvy about *each* decision.

By contrast, the bottom end of the market is full of hand-wavers.

> IT support is being utterly hollowed out. I spent most of the week watching a
> small ad hoc team trying to get past permissions and licensing to *get my email
> working*. Great people pushing some invisible, variable sized boulder up an
> imaginary mountain.

(sigh) I have a sad respect for IT folks. There's is a thankless job as
the decisions are made by folks who "count checkboxes" with little regard
for the costs of supporting each of those boxes checked. Then, cringing
when their (labor) costs skyrocket -- and flail about trying to bring
them back under control (by hiring less and less qualified people).

> But mainly, the dominant force in capitalism now is the merger and
> that applies debt to the acquired. It's "technology on the halfsies". so the
> kids do what could be done in a medium sized board as a software stack on some
> gigahoochie processor.

This always *looks* like the expeditious way to an end. It's the
embedded version of "lets build it around a PC!" -- without thinking
about what the PC brings to the table that is ESSENTIAL and the
attendant risks.

I can't count the number of clients who cringed at the idea of laying out
a custom board -- "Why can't we just buy a __________ and use that?".
The notion that __________ likely won't have the I/Os, packaging constraints,
documentation, etc. that an in-hose design would have escapes them.

"Can't we use Linux?" Sure! And how many MILLIONS of lines of code do
you think are HIDDEN in that statement? Even at a latent bug per *10,000*
LoC (an order of magnitude better than reality), you're looking at thousands
of yet to be discovered (or exploited!) bugs. "We'll just let the Linux
folks maintain that portion of the product FOR us..." implies you are willing
to update every unit, in the field, as regularly as the kernel sees updates.

And, as this is a burden to the user, design something extra in the product
to support AUTOMATIC updates -- connectivity that your product may neither
need nor want -- and pretend the problem is off your hands. And hope
the user is happy with the decision you've forced on him.

> I hope there's some "maker" style ecosystem to support the production of board
> layout pros because the number of people who understand even the
> basics of a transmission line seem very thin on the ground to me.

Why would there be? How many folks still make their own woodworking tools?
Skills only have value in the face of need (demand). If you can buy a
ready-made jack plane, why would you want to make one? If you can buy
a ready-made PCB, why would you want to design/make one?

[Sure, there may be A FEW who want to -- out of curiosity -- but it seems
as an obsolescent skill while others are sorting out how to USE those
ready-made items to achieve tangible goals.]

How many folks want to wade through a 1500 page datasheet to figure out
how to *use* a component?

> M&A is burning the marble of the temples into quicklime to bury the dead.
>
>
>> ---------------
>>
>> Have you noticed that many excellent PCB layout people are dyslexic?
>> They are great with geometry but bad with words. This shows up as bad
>> text placement and spelling (PARTS NOT USE) and inattention to
>> reference designators. That's one reason that women are usually better
>> at PCB layout. Boys are about 3x more likely to be dyslexic than
>> girls, and things like PCB layout may selectively attract dyslexics.
>>
>
> --
> Les Cargill

On Fri, 16 Jun 2023 21:48:54 -0500, Les Cargill <lcargil99@gmail.com>
wrote:

>John Larkin wrote:
>>
>> https://amgreatness.com/2023/06/05/mike-rowe-is-on-a-mission-to-reverse-the-unspeakable-stupidity-of-devaluing-work/
>>
>> He's right. Not everybody can play the college-essay game, and we
>> don't need millions of artists and sociologists and film-makers
>> surviving as Uber drivers and baristas.
>>
>> "America is lending money it doesn't have to kids who can’t pay it
>> back to train them for jobs that no longer exist. That’s nuts."
>>
>> We do need more electronics and manufacturing techs, more good HVAC
>> and auto mechanics, more good IT support people, more good PCB layout
>> people.
>>
>
>Most EEs now end up working process at defense contractors as "systems
>engineers".

Is that numericlly true? I do work with a lot of aerospace engineers
at big defense contractors (and I'm related to one) who in fact work
way up the abstraction stack and don't know much about what's inside
the boxes they buy. The old guys who used to design stuff have
retired... more business for us.

>There are FPGA and hardware people still but that takes
>too long and does not survive the contracts process. I submit that a
>$10k per unit product is all but officially extinct without a patron.
>
>Here's hoping for said patron's heart health.
>
>IT support is being utterly hollowed out. I spent most of the week
>watching a small ad hoc team trying to get past permissions and
>licensing to *get my email working*. Great people pushing some
>invisible, variable sized boulder up an imaginary mountain.

Given the mess that computing is these days, IT support is hard.

>
>But mainly, the dominant force in capitalism now is the merger and
>that applies debt to the acquired. It's "technology on the halfsies". so
>the kids do what could be done in a medium sized board as a software
>stack on some gigahoochie processor.
>
>I hope there's some "maker" style ecosystem to support the production of
>board layout pros because the number of people who understand even the
>basics of a transmission line seem very thin on the ground to me.

I'm looking for smart kids in the maker spaces, ones who can get a
Raspberry Pi to do something real before they go to Stanford and think
that equations rule life.

On Fri, 16 Jun 2023 23:37:46 -0700, Don Y
<blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

>On 6/16/2023 7:48 PM, Les Cargill wrote:
>> Most EEs now end up working process at defense contractors as "systems
>> engineers". There are FPGA and hardware people still but that takes
>> too long and does not survive the contracts process. I submit that a
>> $10k per unit product is all but officially extinct without a patron.
>>
>> Here's hoping for said patron's heart health.
>
>There are still a fair number of products in the 10K *and up* range.
>But, their markets are usually far better understood AND the folks
>making the decisions are considerably more savvy about *each* decision.
>
>By contrast, the bottom end of the market is full of hand-wavers.
>
>> IT support is being utterly hollowed out. I spent most of the week watching a
>> small ad hoc team trying to get past permissions and licensing to *get my email
>> working*. Great people pushing some invisible, variable sized boulder up an
>> imaginary mountain.
>
>(sigh) I have a sad respect for IT folks. There's is a thankless job as
>the decisions are made by folks who "count checkboxes" with little regard
>for the costs of supporting each of those boxes checked. Then, cringing
>when their (labor) costs skyrocket -- and flail about trying to bring
>them back under control (by hiring less and less qualified people).
>
>> But mainly, the dominant force in capitalism now is the merger and
>> that applies debt to the acquired. It's "technology on the halfsies". so the
>> kids do what could be done in a medium sized board as a software stack on some
>> gigahoochie processor.
>
>This always *looks* like the expeditious way to an end. It's the
>embedded version of "lets build it around a PC!" -- without thinking
>about what the PC brings to the table that is ESSENTIAL and the
>attendant risks.
>
>I can't count the number of clients who cringed at the idea of laying out
>a custom board -- "Why can't we just buy a __________ and use that?".
>The notion that __________ likely won't have the I/Os, packaging constraints,
>documentation, etc. that an in-hose design would have escapes them.

It's so easy to lay out and buy a custom 2 or 4-layer board nowadays.
You can do a nice little board design in a day and have some built in
a week. That's hugely better than it was a few decades ago, when the
same would have taken a couple of months and cost 20x what it does
now.