It is very difficult to follow the development of the word svekar (father-in-law) in Slavic languages. It seems that this is a compound word (sve- + kar-). First word (sve-) might indicate that husband’s father was "sveti otac" (kind of 'holy father') to the married woman- ie. SSl. sveti otac > sve-tac 'saint'.

In Serbian and most other Slavic languages, husband’s father-in-law is not svekar – but he is named differently - tast. Although we have no clear etymology for this word, it seems that tast was derived from the word tazbina (the property and family of the wife's father). Tazbina, as we can see, is very close to the SSl. otadžbina (fatherland) and now we can understand that Serb. tast has the same meaning as Sl. otac ‘father’.

This bound morpheme –bina or – vina (domo-vina ‘homeland’, otadž-bina ‘fatherland’, rod-bina ‘family’, kralje-vina ‘kingdom’, sud-bina ‘destiny’ etc.) serve as a descriptor of the “round” form (Serb. oblina ‘roundness’, Serb. oblik ‘form’; from *ho(n)bl-hn-); I named it “the secret of the ‘round circle’” :)

The second word -kar-, -kor-, -kir- and similar, probably has the meaning 'lord' (cf. gr. κύρος). I suppose that Gr. κύρος comes out from the same “arsenal” as SSl. kralj, Russ. король, Lat. rex, regulus (loss of the initial velar, formed in a similar way as SSl. krugljevina > kraljevina (Serb. okruglo ‘round’, okrug ‘district’).

If we take Hungarian király (king) we’ll see that this is a word based on Gr. kiros blended with Serb, kralj. Now we can clearly understand that Slavic kralj (kral, krol, karolj, kraljat) has nothing to do with the name of Carolus Magnus.

To corroborate the above thinking, let’s mention the Slavic words krajina/pokrajina (Ukraine) which means province, region, district (similar to Serb. okrug ‘district’). If we now compare Latin regulus and region with Slavic kralj and krajina (from kraljevina > krajevina, cf. Craiova in Romania) it becomes absolutely clear that all these words were derived from the same source.

Possessive case of SSl. svekar is svekrova, and mother-in-law’s is svekrvina. There is a possibility that the meaning of svekar is ‘holy master’ (a sort of a king among the husband’s family members). In fact, wife’s father-in-law for centuries was considered as a prominent and most important figure of the new household.

On 16.05.2021 10:37, Dušan Vukotić wrote:

>It is very difficult to follow the development of the word svekar (father-in-law) in Slavic languages. It seems that this is a compound word (sve- + kar-). First word (sve-) might indicate that husband’s father was "sveti otac" (kind of 'holy father') to the married woman- ie. SSl. sveti otac > sve-tac 'saint'.

• Compare Latin socer [soker] / socerus / socrus "father-in-law"; plural
soceri. Also: consocer; socer magnus; socer maior.
• cf. Greek ἑκυρός
• cf. German Schwieger- [švi:gəː]: Schwiegervater, Schwiegermutter,
Schwiegereltern. Also cf. Schwager [šva:gəː] "brother-in-law"
• cf. Norwegian & Danish svigerfar
• cf. Swedish svärfar

(Germanic idioms seem to best reflect a pattern SUOKəR/SUIKəR and
SUAKəR/SUOKəR. Which fits all examples in this ad-hoc list. Prior
to look up the ancient word/root in Pokorny's/Walde's (P)IE list.)

• cf. Hungarian: latter adapted in Hungarian as sógor [šo:-gor]
"brother-in-law", sógornő "sister-in-law"
• cf. Romanian socru, pl. socri "father-in-law", soacră, pl. soacre
"mother-in-law"
• cf. Italian suocero "father-in-law"
• cf. Portuguese & Galician sogro
• cf. Spanish suegro
• cf. Catalan sogre
• cf. Corsican soceru
• cf. Slovak svokor "father-in-law
• cf. Bulgarian свекър [svekər]
• cf. Croatian svekar
• cf. Armenian skesrayr
• cf. Hindi sasur

> In Serbian and most other Slavic languages,

"Most"? Rather "some" of them.

>If we take Hungarian király (king) we’ll see that this is a word based on Gr. kiros blended with Serb, kralj.

But Hungarians have always had the "superstrong" word úr for the Gr.
meaning. Incl. when referring to God/their Lord: Úristen verbatim "Lord
God" and Atya Úristen verbatim "Lord God Father". The usage is attested
in the oldest scripts in medieval Hungarian. No kyr in use, despite
centuries of Latin mass and official bureaucracy in Latin, incl.
Greek "Kyrie, eléison" instead of Lat. "Domine, miserere". Király
is definitely deemed (by alls scholars) as a medieval Slavic borrowing
(along with the 'vice-king': nádor < Slavic nadvornik & the chief of
a county (an incipient count/earl), ispán [išpa:n] < Slavic župan).

>Possessive case of SSl. svekar is svekrova, and mother-in-law’s is svekrvina. There is a possibility that the meaning of svekar is ‘holy master’ (a sort of a king among the husband’s family members). In fact, wife’s father-in-law for centuries was considered as a prominent and most important figure of the new household.

Why? Only because Slavic SVENT- almost looks like SVE- in SVEKAR?
SWA SWE SWI SWO SWU in other IE languages seem to have turned
SVA SVE SVI SVO SVU in Slavic languages. Me thinks, no problem
here.

Besides:

the father-in-law couldn't have been that important since throughout
Europe fathers- and mothers-in-law have been the target for the
wrath (and violent deeds) by the son-in-law alias Pater Familias;
and it is also quite a "tradition" that daughters-in-law and mothers-
in-law hate one another. Hence whole lotta literature and movies
inspired by such tales, legends and myths. :-)

Tim
--
Is soccer a football game played by fathers-in-law only? And only
in Brunswick and Braunschweig? :-D

(I add comments, not a slavic speaker nor a linguist.)

On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 4:37:11 AM UTC-4, Dušan Vukotić wrote:
> It is very difficult to follow the development of the word svekar (father-in-law) in Slavic languages. It seems that this is a compound word (sve- + kar-). First word (sve-) might indicate that husband’s father was "sveti otac" (kind of 'holy father') to the married woman- ie. SSl. sveti otac > sve-tac 'saint'.
- sveti ~ saintly ~ tzintli@Azt: saintly <~ tsuointli ~> otli@Azt: holy order vs potli: border, boundary
Suo ~ Xyua: through + uamb: womb/wamba/home => xyuambuatlay ~ family: father+mother+all(o)y/order
- > In Serbian and most other Slavic languages, husband’s father-in-law is not svekar – but he is named differently - tast. Although we have no clear etymology for this word, it seems that tast was derived from the word tazbina (the property and family of the wife's father). Tazbina, as we can see, is very close to the SSl. otadžbina (fatherland) and now we can understand that Serb. tast has the same meaning as Sl. otac ‘father’.
- Taz, tast, otac ~ father, dad, pops
- > This bound morpheme –bina or – vina (domo-vina ‘homeland’, otadž-bina ‘fatherland’, rod-bina ‘family’, kralje-vina ‘kingdom’, sud-bina ‘destiny’ etc.) serve as a descriptor of the “round” form (Serb. oblina ‘roundness’, Serb. oblik ‘form’; from *ho(n)bl-hn-); I named it “the secret of the ‘round circle’” :)
- Bina, vina, oblina, *ho(n)bl-hn- oval, bowl?, (pig) pen/fence/pit?
- >
> The second word -kar-, -kor-, -kir- and similar, probably has the meaning 'lord' (cf. gr. κύρος). I suppose that Gr. κύρος comes out from the same “arsenal” as SSl. kralj, Russ. король, Lat. rex, regulus (loss of the initial velar, formed in a similar way as SSl. krugljevina > kraljevina (Serb. okruglo ‘round’, okrug ‘district’).
- Okruglo ~ *(k)wkwelo@PIE, kolo@Pol, gulu@Chn, circular
- >
> If we take Hungarian király (king) we’ll see that this is a word based on Gr. kiros blended with Serb, kralj. Now we can clearly understand that Slavic kralj (kral, krol, karolj, kraljat) has nothing to do with the name of Carolus Magnus.
>
> To corroborate the above thinking, let’s mention the Slavic words krajina/pokrajina (Ukraine) which means province, region, district (similar to Serb. okrug ‘district’). If we now compare Latin regulus and region with Slavic kralj and krajina (from kraljevina > krajevina, cf. Craiova in Romania) it becomes absolutely clear that all these words were derived from the same source.
>
> Possessive case of SSl. svekar is svekrova, and mother-in-law’s is svekrvina. There is a possibility that the meaning of svekar is ‘holy master’ (a sort of a king among the husband’s family members). In fact, wife’s father-in-law for centuries was considered as a prominent and most important figure of the new household.

On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 4:37:11 AM UTC-4, Dušan Vukotić wrote:
> It is very difficult to follow the development of the word svekar (father-in-law) in Slavic languages. It seems that this is a compound word (sve- + kar-). First word (sve-) might indicate that husband’s father was "sveti otac" (kind of 'holy father') to the married woman- ie. SSl. sveti otac > sve-tac 'saint'.
>
> In Serbian and most other Slavic languages, husband’s father-in-law is not svekar – but he is named differently - tast. Although we have no clear etymology for this word, it seems that tast was derived from the word tazbina (the property and family of the wife's father). Tazbina, as we can see, is very close to the SSl. otadžbina (fatherland) and now we can understand that Serb. tast has the same meaning as Sl. otac ‘father’.
>
> This bound morpheme –bina or – vina (domo-vina ‘homeland’, otadž-bina ‘fatherland’, rod-bina ‘family’, kralje-vina ‘kingdom’, sud-bina ‘destiny’ etc.) serve as a descriptor of the “round” form (Serb. oblina ‘roundness’, Serb. oblik ‘form’; from *ho(n)bl-hn-); I named it “the secret of the ‘round circle’” :)
>
> The second word -kar-, -kor-, -kir- and similar, probably has the meaning 'lord' (cf. gr. κύρος). I suppose that Gr. κύρος comes out from the same “arsenal” as SSl. kralj, Russ. король, Lat. rex, regulus (loss of the initial velar, formed in a similar way as SSl. krugljevina > kraljevina (Serb. okruglo ‘round’, okrug ‘district’).
>
> If we take Hungarian király (king) we’ll see that this is a word based on Gr. kiros blended with Serb, kralj. Now we can clearly understand that Slavic kralj (kral, krol, karolj, kraljat) has nothing to do with the name of Carolus Magnus.
>
> To corroborate the above thinking, let’s mention the Slavic words krajina/pokrajina (Ukraine) which means province, region, district (similar to Serb. okrug ‘district’). If we now compare Latin regulus and region with Slavic kralj and krajina (from kraljevina > krajevina, cf. Craiova in Romania) it becomes absolutely clear that all these words were derived from the same source.
>
> Possessive case of SSl. svekar is svekrova, and mother-in-law’s is svekrvina. There is a possibility that the meaning of svekar is ‘holy master’ (a sort of a king among the husband’s family members). In fact, wife’s father-in-law for centuries was considered as a prominent and most important figure of the new household.

Dusan baby - is there still something new to be said about a common word like "father-in-law"?

Pyysalo seems to have made a monster breakthrough in PIE reconstruction - what do you think about it?

On 2021-05-16, Dušan Vukotić <dusan.vukotic@gmail.com> wrote:

> The second word -kar-, -kor-, -kir- and similar, probably has the meaning 'lord' (cf. gr. κύρος). I suppose that Gr. κύρος comes out from the same “arsenal” as SSl. kralj, Russ. король,

The Slavic word is generally agreed to be a loan of Germanic karl,
specifically from the name of Charlemagne.

> Lat. rex, regulus (loss of the initial velar,

No, you cannot just ignore an initial k- because it is inconvenient.
Latin rēx has a secure cognate in Celtic rīx and a plausible cognate
in Sanskrit rāj.

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de

On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 1:29:54 PM UTC+2, Tim Lang wrote:
> On 16.05.2021 10:37, Dušan Vukotić wrote:
>
> >It is very difficult to follow the development of the word svekar (father-in-law) in Slavic languages. It seems that this is a compound word (sve- + kar-). First word (sve-) might indicate that husband’s father was "sveti otac" (kind of 'holy father') to the married woman- ie. SSl. sveti otac > sve-tac 'saint'.
> • Compare Latin socer [soker] / socerus / socrus "father-in-law"; plural
> soceri. Also: consocer; socer magnus; socer maior.
> • cf. Greek ἑκυρός
> • cf. German Schwieger- [švi:gəː]: Schwiegervater, Schwiegermutter,
> Schwiegereltern. Also cf. Schwager [šva:gəː] "brother-in-law"
> • cf. Norwegian & Danish svigerfar
> • cf. Swedish svärfar
>
> (Germanic idioms seem to best reflect a pattern SUOKəR/SUIKəR and
> SUAKəR/SUOKəR. Which fits all examples in this ad-hoc list. Prior
> to look up the ancient word/root in Pokorny's/Walde's (P)IE list.)
>
> • cf. Hungarian: latter adapted in Hungarian as sógor [šo:-gor]
> "brother-in-law", sógornő "sister-in-law"
> • cf. Romanian socru, pl. socri "father-in-law", soacră, pl. soacre
> "mother-in-law"
> • cf. Italian suocero "father-in-law"
> • cf. Portuguese & Galician sogro
> • cf. Spanish suegro
> • cf. Catalan sogre
> • cf. Corsican soceru
> • cf. Slovak svokor "father-in-law
> • cf. Bulgarian свекър [svekər]
> • cf. Croatian svekar
> • cf. Armenian skesrayr
> • cf. Hindi sasur
> > In Serbian and most other Slavic languages,
> "Most"? Rather "some" of them.

Are you joking? No need for the above list at all. Everyone can find it easily. For instance, follow this link: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/father-in-law

> >If we take Hungarian király (king) we’ll see that this is a word based on Gr. kiros blended with Serb, kralj.
> But Hungarians have always had the "superstrong" word úr for the Gr.
> meaning. Incl. when referring to God/their Lord: Úristen verbatim "Lord
> God" and Atya Úristen verbatim "Lord God Father". The usage is attested
> in the oldest scripts in medieval Hungarian. No kyr in use, despite
> centuries of Latin mass and official bureaucracy in Latin, incl.
> Greek "Kyrie, eléison" instead of Lat. "Domine, miserere". Király
> is definitely deemed (by alls scholars) as a medieval Slavic borrowing
> (along with the 'vice-king': nádor < Slavic nadvornik & the chief of
> a county (an incipient count/earl), ispán [išpa:n] < Slavic župan).

The etymology of the Hun. word nádor is still disputable.

> >Possessive case of SSl. svekar is svekrova, and mother-in-law’s is svekrvina. There is a possibility that the meaning of svekar is ‘holy master’ (a sort of a king among the husband’s family members). In fact, wife’s father-in-law for centuries was considered as a prominent and most important figure of the new household.
> Why? Only because Slavic SVENT- almost looks like SVE- in SVEKAR?
> SWA SWE SWI SWO SWU in other IE languages seem to have turned
> SVA SVE SVI SVO SVU in Slavic languages. Me thinks, no problem
> here.

I am talking about possibilities. Don't you see that? If you already know the etymology of the word svekar, please, announce it to the world.

> Besides:
>
> the father-in-law couldn't have been that important since throughout
> Europe fathers- and mothers-in-law have been the target for the
> wrath (and violent deeds) by the son-in-law alias Pater Familias;
> and it is also quite a "tradition" that daughters-in-law and mothers-
> in-law hate one another. Hence whole lotta literature and movies
> inspired by such tales, legends and myths. :-)

Obviously you have no idea how the Slavic families were organized in the Balkans a century ago.

> Tim
> --
> Is soccer a football game played by fathers-in-law only? And only
> in Brunswick and Braunschweig? :-D

On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 4:33:49 PM UTC+2, S K wrote:
> On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 4:37:11 AM UTC-4, Dušan Vukotić wrote:

> Dusan baby - is there still something new to be said about a common word like "father-in-law"?

Not a common word at all.

> Pyysalo seems to have made a monster breakthrough in PIE reconstruction - what do you think about it?

Talking about Jouna Pyysalo? Good scientist, hardworking, systematic. But I think that "reconsruction of PIE" is a futile work, infertile beating about the bush.

On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 2:17:25 PM UTC+2, daud....@gmail.com wrote:
> (I add comments, not a slavic speaker nor a linguist.)
> On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 4:37:11 AM UTC-4, Dušan Vukotić wrote:
> > It is very difficult to follow the development of the word svekar (father-in-law) in Slavic languages. It seems that this is a compound word (sve- + kar-). First word (sve-) might indicate that husband’s father was "sveti otac" (kind of 'holy father') to the married woman- ie. SSl. sveti otac > sve-tac 'saint'.
> -
> sveti ~ saintly ~ tzintli@Azt: saintly <~ tsuointli ~> otli@Azt: holy order vs potli: border, boundary
> Suo ~ Xyua: through + uamb: womb/wamba/home => xyuambuatlay ~ family: father+mother+all(o)y/order
> -
> > In Serbian and most other Slavic languages, husband’s father-in-law is not svekar – but he is named differently - tast. Although we have no clear etymology for this word, it seems that tast was derived from the word tazbina (the property and family of the wife's father). Tazbina, as we can see, is very close to the SSl. otadžbina (fatherland) and now we can understand that Serb. tast has the same meaning as Sl. otac ‘father’.
> -
> Taz, tast, otac ~ father, dad, pops
> -
> > This bound morpheme –bina or – vina (domo-vina ‘homeland’, otadž-bina ‘fatherland’, rod-bina ‘family’, kralje-vina ‘kingdom’, sud-bina ‘destiny’ etc.) serve as a descriptor of the “round” form (Serb. oblina ‘roundness’, Serb. oblik ‘form’; from *ho(n)bl-hn-); I named it “the secret of the ‘round circle’” :)
> -
> Bina, vina, oblina, *ho(n)bl-hn- oval, bowl?, (pig) pen/fence/pit?
> -
> >
> > The second word -kar-, -kor-, -kir- and similar, probably has the meaning 'lord' (cf. gr. κύρος). I suppose that Gr. κύρος comes out from the same “arsenal” as SSl. kralj, Russ. король, Lat. rex, regulus (loss of the initial velar, formed in a similar way as SSl. krugljevina > kraljevina (Serb. okruglo ‘round’, okrug ‘district’).
> -
> Okruglo ~ *(k)wkwelo@PIE, kolo@Pol, gulu@Chn, circular
> -
> >
> > If we take Hungarian király (king) we’ll see that this is a word based on Gr. kiros blended with Serb, kralj. Now we can clearly understand that Slavic kralj (kral, krol, karolj, kraljat) has nothing to do with the name of Carolus Magnus.
> >
> > To corroborate the above thinking, let’s mention the Slavic words krajina/pokrajina (Ukraine) which means province, region, district (similar to Serb. okrug ‘district’). If we now compare Latin regulus and region with Slavic kralj and krajina (from kraljevina > krajevina, cf. Craiova in Romania) it becomes absolutely clear that all these words were derived from the same source.
> >
> > Possessive case of SSl. svekar is svekrova, and mother-in-law’s is svekrvina. There is a possibility that the meaning of svekar is ‘holy master’ (a sort of a king among the husband’s family members). In fact, wife’s father-in-law for centuries was considered as a prominent and most important figure of the new household.

Very inventive, interesting associations. Piercing mind. Congrats.

Sun, 16 May 2021 09:04:04 -0700 (PDT): Dušan Vukoti?
<dusan.vukotic@gmail.com> scribeva:

>On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 1:29:54 PM UTC+2, Tim Lang wrote:
>> On 16.05.2021 10:37, Dušan Vukoti? wrote:
>>
>> >It is very difficult to follow the development of the word svekar (father-in-law) in Slavic languages. It seems that this is a compound word (sve- + kar-). First word (sve-) might indicate that husband’s father was "sveti otac" (kind of 'holy father') to the married woman- ie. SSl. sveti otac > sve-tac 'saint'.
>> • Compare Latin socer [soker] / socerus / socrus "father-in-law"; plural
>> soceri. Also: consocer; socer magnus; socer maior.
>> • cf. Greek ??????
>> • cf. German Schwieger- [švi:g??]: Schwiegervater, Schwiegermutter,
>> Schwiegereltern. Also cf. Schwager [šva:g??] "brother-in-law"
>> • cf. Norwegian & Danish svigerfar
>> • cf. Swedish svärfar
>>
>> (Germanic idioms seem to best reflect a pattern SUOK?R/SUIK?R and
>> SUAK?R/SUOK?R. Which fits all examples in this ad-hoc list. Prior
>> to look up the ancient word/root in Pokorny's/Walde's (P)IE list.)
>>
>> • cf. Hungarian: latter adapted in Hungarian as sógor [šo:-gor]
>> "brother-in-law", sógorn? "sister-in-law"
>> • cf. Romanian socru, pl. socri "father-in-law", soacr?, pl. soacre
>> "mother-in-law"
>> • cf. Italian suocero "father-in-law"
>> • cf. Portuguese & Galician sogro
>> • cf. Spanish suegro
>> • cf. Catalan sogre
>> • cf. Corsican soceru
>> • cf. Slovak svokor "father-in-law
>> • cf. Bulgarian ?????? [svek?r]
>> • cf. Croatian svekar
>> • cf. Armenian skesrayr
>> • cf. Hindi sasur
>> > In Serbian and most other Slavic languages,
>> "Most"? Rather "some" of them.
>
>Are you joking? No need for the above list at all. Everyone can find it easily. For instance, follow this link: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/father-in-law
>
>
>> >If we take Hungarian király (king) we’ll see that this is a word based on Gr. kiros blended with Serb, kralj.
>> But Hungarians have always had the "superstrong" word úr for the Gr.
>> meaning. Incl. when referring to God/their Lord: Úristen verbatim "Lord
>> God" and Atya Úristen verbatim "Lord God Father". The usage is attested
>> in the oldest scripts in medieval Hungarian. No kyr in use, despite
>> centuries of Latin mass and official bureaucracy in Latin, incl.
>> Greek "Kyrie, eléison" instead of Lat. "Domine, miserere". Király
>> is definitely deemed (by alls scholars) as a medieval Slavic borrowing
>> (along with the 'vice-king': nádor < Slavic nadvornik & the chief of
>> a county (an incipient count/earl), ispán [išpa:n] < Slavic župan).
>
>The etymology of the Hun. word nádor is still disputable.
>
>> >Possessive case of SSl. svekar is svekrova, and mother-in-law’s is svekrvina. There is a possibility that the meaning of svekar is ‘holy master’ (a sort of a king among the husband’s family members). In fact, wife’s father-in-law for centuries was considered as a prominent and most important figure of the new household.
>> Why? Only because Slavic SVENT- almost looks like SVE- in SVEKAR?
>> SWA SWE SWI SWO SWU in other IE languages seem to have turned
>> SVA SVE SVI SVO SVU in Slavic languages. Me thinks, no problem
>> here.
>
>
>I am talking about possibilities. Don't you see that? If you already know the etymology of the word svekar, please, announce it to the world.

Wiktionary knows: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/svekar#Etymology
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/sw%C3%A9%E1%B8%B1uros
Cognate with Dutch 'zwager'.

Didn't you look there? If not, why not?

>> Besides:
>>
>> the father-in-law couldn't have been that important since throughout
>> Europe fathers- and mothers-in-law have been the target for the
>> wrath (and violent deeds) by the son-in-law alias Pater Familias;
>> and it is also quite a "tradition" that daughters-in-law and mothers-
>> in-law hate one another. Hence whole lotta literature and movies
>> inspired by such tales, legends and myths. :-)
>
>
>Obviously you have no idea how the Slavic families were organized in the Balkans a century ago.

Languages are not "organized".

>> Tim
>> --
>> Is soccer a football game played by fathers-in-law only? And only
>> in Brunswick and Braunschweig? :-D

--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Sun, 16 May 2021 19:19:12 +0200: Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com>
scribeva:

>Sun, 16 May 2021 09:04:04 -0700 (PDT): Dušan Vukoti?
><dusan.vukotic@gmail.com> scribeva:
>
>>On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 1:29:54 PM UTC+2, Tim Lang wrote:
>>> On 16.05.2021 10:37, Dušan Vukoti? wrote:
>>>
>>> >It is very difficult to follow the development of the word svekar (father-in-law) in Slavic languages. It seems that this is a compound word (sve- + kar-). First word (sve-) might indicate that husband’s father was "sveti otac" (kind of 'holy father') to the married woman- ie. SSl. sveti otac > sve-tac 'saint'.
>>> • Compare Latin socer [soker] / socerus / socrus "father-in-law"; plural
>>> soceri. Also: consocer; socer magnus; socer maior.
>>> • cf. Greek ??????
>>> • cf. German Schwieger- [švi:g??]: Schwiegervater, Schwiegermutter,
>>> Schwiegereltern. Also cf. Schwager [šva:g??] "brother-in-law"
>>> • cf. Norwegian & Danish svigerfar
>>> • cf. Swedish svärfar
>>>
>>> (Germanic idioms seem to best reflect a pattern SUOK?R/SUIK?R and
>>> SUAK?R/SUOK?R. Which fits all examples in this ad-hoc list. Prior
>>> to look up the ancient word/root in Pokorny's/Walde's (P)IE list.)
>>>
>>> • cf. Hungarian: latter adapted in Hungarian as sógor [šo:-gor]
>>> "brother-in-law", sógorn? "sister-in-law"
>>> • cf. Romanian socru, pl. socri "father-in-law", soacr?, pl. soacre
>>> "mother-in-law"
>>> • cf. Italian suocero "father-in-law"
>>> • cf. Portuguese & Galician sogro
>>> • cf. Spanish suegro
>>> • cf. Catalan sogre
>>> • cf. Corsican soceru
>>> • cf. Slovak svokor "father-in-law
>>> • cf. Bulgarian ?????? [svek?r]
>>> • cf. Croatian svekar
>>> • cf. Armenian skesrayr
>>> • cf. Hindi sasur
>>> > In Serbian and most other Slavic languages,
>>> "Most"? Rather "some" of them.
>>
>>Are you joking? No need for the above list at all. Everyone can find it easily. For instance, follow this link: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/father-in-law
>>
>>
>>> >If we take Hungarian király (king) we’ll see that this is a word based on Gr. kiros blended with Serb, kralj.
>>> But Hungarians have always had the "superstrong" word úr for the Gr.
>>> meaning. Incl. when referring to God/their Lord: Úristen verbatim "Lord
>>> God" and Atya Úristen verbatim "Lord God Father". The usage is attested
>>> in the oldest scripts in medieval Hungarian. No kyr in use, despite
>>> centuries of Latin mass and official bureaucracy in Latin, incl.
>>> Greek "Kyrie, eléison" instead of Lat. "Domine, miserere". Király
>>> is definitely deemed (by alls scholars) as a medieval Slavic borrowing
>>> (along with the 'vice-king': nádor < Slavic nadvornik & the chief of
>>> a county (an incipient count/earl), ispán [išpa:n] < Slavic župan).
>>
>>The etymology of the Hun. word nádor is still disputable.
>>
>>> >Possessive case of SSl. svekar is svekrova, and mother-in-law’s is svekrvina. There is a possibility that the meaning of svekar is ‘holy master’ (a sort of a king among the husband’s family members). In fact, wife’s father-in-law for centuries was considered as a prominent and most important figure of the new household.
>>> Why? Only because Slavic SVENT- almost looks like SVE- in SVEKAR?
>>> SWA SWE SWI SWO SWU in other IE languages seem to have turned
>>> SVA SVE SVI SVO SVU in Slavic languages. Me thinks, no problem
>>> here.
>>
>>
>>I am talking about possibilities. Don't you see that? If you already know the etymology of the word svekar, please, announce it to the world.
>
>Wiktionary knows: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/svekar#Etymology
>https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/sw%C3%A9%E1%B8%B1uros
>Cognate with Dutch 'zwager'.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/sw%C4%93graz
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/swehuraz

Why those two variants?
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 7:19:15 PM UTC+2, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> Sun, 16 May 2021 09:04:04 -0700 (PDT): Dušan Vukoti?
> <dusan....@gmail.com> scribeva:
> >On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 1:29:54 PM UTC+2, Tim Lang wrote:
> >> On 16.05.2021 10:37, Dušan Vukoti? wrote:
> >>
> >> >It is very difficult to follow the development of the word svekar (father-in-law) in Slavic languages. It seems that this is a compound word (sve- + kar-). First word (sve-) might indicate that husband’s father was "sveti otac" (kind of 'holy father') to the married woman- ie. SSl. sveti otac > sve-tac 'saint'.
> >> • Compare Latin socer [soker] / socerus / socrus "father-in-law"; plural
> >> soceri. Also: consocer; socer magnus; socer maior.
> >> • cf. Greek ??????
> >> • cf. German Schwieger- [švi:g??]: Schwiegervater, Schwiegermutter,
> >> Schwiegereltern. Also cf. Schwager [šva:g??] "brother-in-law"
> >> • cf. Norwegian & Danish svigerfar
> >> • cf. Swedish svärfar
> >>
> >> (Germanic idioms seem to best reflect a pattern SUOK?R/SUIK?R and
> >> SUAK?R/SUOK?R. Which fits all examples in this ad-hoc list. Prior
> >> to look up the ancient word/root in Pokorny's/Walde's (P)IE list.)
> >>
> >> • cf. Hungarian: latter adapted in Hungarian as sógor [šo:-gor]
> >> "brother-in-law", sógorn? "sister-in-law"
> >> • cf. Romanian socru, pl. socri "father-in-law", soacr?, pl. soacre
> >> "mother-in-law"
> >> • cf. Italian suocero "father-in-law"
> >> • cf. Portuguese & Galician sogro
> >> • cf. Spanish suegro
> >> • cf. Catalan sogre
> >> • cf. Corsican soceru
> >> • cf. Slovak svokor "father-in-law
> >> • cf. Bulgarian ?????? [svek?r]
> >> • cf. Croatian svekar
> >> • cf. Armenian skesrayr
> >> • cf. Hindi sasur
> >> > In Serbian and most other Slavic languages,
> >> "Most"? Rather "some" of them.
> >
> >Are you joking? No need for the above list at all. Everyone can find it easily. For instance, follow this link: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/father-in-law
> >
> >
> >> >If we take Hungarian király (king) we’ll see that this is a word based on Gr. kiros blended with Serb, kralj.
> >> But Hungarians have always had the "superstrong" word úr for the Gr.
> >> meaning. Incl. when referring to God/their Lord: Úristen verbatim "Lord
> >> God" and Atya Úristen verbatim "Lord God Father". The usage is attested
> >> in the oldest scripts in medieval Hungarian. No kyr in use, despite
> >> centuries of Latin mass and official bureaucracy in Latin, incl.
> >> Greek "Kyrie, eléison" instead of Lat. "Domine, miserere". Király
> >> is definitely deemed (by alls scholars) as a medieval Slavic borrowing
> >> (along with the 'vice-king': nádor < Slavic nadvornik & the chief of
> >> a county (an incipient count/earl), ispán [išpa:n] < Slavic župan).
> >
> >The etymology of the Hun. word nádor is still disputable.
> >
> >> >Possessive case of SSl. svekar is svekrova, and mother-in-law’s is svekrvina. There is a possibility that the meaning of svekar is ‘holy master’ (a sort of a king among the husband’s family members). In fact, wife’s father-in-law for centuries was considered as a prominent and most important figure of the new household.
> >> Why? Only because Slavic SVENT- almost looks like SVE- in SVEKAR?
> >> SWA SWE SWI SWO SWU in other IE languages seem to have turned
> >> SVA SVE SVI SVO SVU in Slavic languages. Me thinks, no problem
> >> here.
> >
> >
> >I am talking about possibilities. Don't you see that? If you already know the etymology of the word svekar, please, announce it to the world.
> Wiktionary knows: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/svekar#Etymology
> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/sw%C3%A9%E1%B8%B1uros
> Cognate with Dutch 'zwager'.
>
> Didn't you look there? If not, why not?

There is nothing in there. just cognates.

> >> Besides:
> >>
> >> the father-in-law couldn't have been that important since throughout
> >> Europe fathers- and mothers-in-law have been the target for the
> >> wrath (and violent deeds) by the son-in-law alias Pater Familias;
> >> and it is also quite a "tradition" that daughters-in-law and mothers-
> >> in-law hate one another. Hence whole lotta literature and movies
> >> inspired by such tales, legends and myths. :-)
> >
> >
> >Obviously you have no idea how the Slavic families were organized in the Balkans a century ago.

> Languages are not "organized".

My dear friend Ruud, it seems you are getting older and older every day. Slavic families, not Slavic language families.

> Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

>> >I am talking about possibilities. Don't you see that? If you already know the etymology of the word svekar, please, announce it to the world.
>> Wiktionary knows: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/svekar#Etymology
>> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/sw%C3%A9%E1%B8%B1uros
>> Cognate with Dutch 'zwager'.
>>
>> Didn't you look there? If not, why not?
>
>There is nothing in there. just cognates.

Aren't cognates an indication of etymology?

>> >> Besides:
>> >>
>> >> the father-in-law couldn't have been that important since throughout
>> >> Europe fathers- and mothers-in-law have been the target for the
>> >> wrath (and violent deeds) by the son-in-law alias Pater Familias;
>> >> and it is also quite a "tradition" that daughters-in-law and mothers-
>> >> in-law hate one another. Hence whole lotta literature and movies
>> >> inspired by such tales, legends and myths. :-)
>> >
>> >
>> >Obviously you have no idea how the Slavic families were organized in the Balkans a century ago.
>
>> Languages are not "organized".
>
>My dear friend Ruud, it seems you are getting older and older every day. Slavic families, not Slavic language families.

Yes, now I see, you are right, my bad.

On 2021-05-16, Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:

> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/sw%C4%93graz
> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/swehuraz
>
> Why those two variants?

Well, there are two words, represented by
German "Schwager", brother-in-law, earlier: any male in-law
OHG swāgur
and
German "Schwäher" (obsolete), father-in-law
OHG swehur

The g/h looks like a Verner's Law alternation, so the underlying
PIE etymons have different stress alongside the quality difference
in the root vowel.

(There's also German "Schwieger", obsolete for mother-in-law, which
was replaced by the compound "Schwiegermutter", from which "Schwieger-",
in-law, has been extracted in turn and used to form further compounds.)

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de

On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 1:16:06 PM UTC-4, Dušan Vukotić wrote:
> On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 2:17:25 PM UTC+2, daud....@gmail.com wrote:
> > (I add comments, not a slavic speaker nor a linguist.)
> > On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 4:37:11 AM UTC-4, Dušan Vukotić wrote:
> > > It is very difficult to follow the development of the word svekar (father-in-law) in Slavic languages. It seems that this is a compound word (sve- + kar-). First word (sve-) might indicate that husband’s father was "sveti otac" (kind of 'holy father') to the married woman- ie. SSl. sveti otac > sve-tac 'saint'.
> > -
> > sveti ~ saintly ~ tzintli@Azt: saintly <~ tsuointli ~> otli@Azt: holy order vs potli: border, boundary
> > Suo ~ Xyua: through + uamb: womb/wamba/home => xyuambuatlay ~ family: father+mother+all(o)y/order
> > -
> > > In Serbian and most other Slavic languages, husband’s father-in-law is not svekar – but he is named differently - tast. Although we have no clear etymology for this word, it seems that tast was derived from the word tazbina (the property and family of the wife's father). Tazbina, as we can see, is very close to the SSl. otadžbina (fatherland) and now we can understand that Serb. tast has the same meaning as Sl. otac ‘father’.
> > -
> > Taz, tast, otac ~ father, dad, pops
> > -
> > > This bound morpheme –bina or – vina (domo-vina ‘homeland’, otadž-bina ‘fatherland’, rod-bina ‘family’, kralje-vina ‘kingdom’, sud-bina ‘destiny’ etc.) serve as a descriptor of the “round” form (Serb. oblina ‘roundness’, Serb. oblik ‘form’; from *ho(n)bl-hn-); I named it “the secret of the ‘round circle’” :)
> > -
> > Bina, vina, oblina, *ho(n)bl-hn- oval, bowl?, (pig) pen/fence/pit?
> > -
> > >
> > > The second word -kar-, -kor-, -kir- and similar, probably has the meaning 'lord' (cf. gr. κύρος). I suppose that Gr. κύρος comes out from the same “arsenal” as SSl. kralj, Russ. король, Lat. rex, regulus (loss of the initial velar, formed in a similar way as SSl. krugljevina > kraljevina (Serb. okruglo ‘round’, okrug ‘district’).
> > -
> > Okruglo ~ *(k)wkwelo@PIE, kolo@Pol, gulu@Chn, circular
> > -
> > >
> > > If we take Hungarian király (king) we’ll see that this is a word based on Gr. kiros blended with Serb, kralj. Now we can clearly understand that Slavic kralj (kral, krol, karolj, kraljat) has nothing to do with the name of Carolus Magnus.
> > >
> > > To corroborate the above thinking, let’s mention the Slavic words krajina/pokrajina (Ukraine) which means province, region, district (similar to Serb. okrug ‘district’). If we now compare Latin regulus and region with Slavic kralj and krajina (from kraljevina > krajevina, cf. Craiova in Romania) it becomes absolutely clear that all these words were derived from the same source.
> > >
> > > Possessive case of SSl. svekar is svekrova, and mother-in-law’s is svekrvina. There is a possibility that the meaning of svekar is ‘holy master’ (a sort of a king among the husband’s family members). In fact, wife’s father-in-law for centuries was considered as a prominent and most important figure of the new household.
> Very inventive, interesting associations. Piercing mind. Congrats.
Thanks. I should say, father-in-law is a recent thing, in prehistorical paleo times, father sufficed.

On 17/05/2021 12:17 a.m., Daud Deden wrote:
> (I add comments, not a slavic speaker nor a linguist.)
>
> On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 4:37:11 AM UTC-4, Dušan Vukotić wrote:
>> It is very difficult to follow the development of the word svekar (father-in-law) in Slavic languages. It seems that this is a compound word (sve- + kar-). First word (sve-) might indicate that husband’s father was "sveti otac" (kind of 'holy father') to the married woman- ie. SSl. sveti otac > sve-tac 'saint'.
> -
> sveti ~ saintly ~ tzintli@Azt: saintly <~ tsuointli ~> otli@Azt: holy order vs potli: border, boundary
> Suo ~ Xyua: through + uamb: womb/wamba/home => xyuambuatlay ~ family: father+mother+all(o)y/order
> -
>> In Serbian and most other Slavic languages, husband’s father-in-law is not svekar – but he is named differently - tast. Although we have no clear etymology for this word, it seems that tast was derived from the word tazbina (the property and family of the wife's father). Tazbina, as we can see, is very close to the SSl. otadžbina (fatherland) and now we can understand that Serb. tast has the same meaning as Sl. otac ‘father’.
> -
> Taz, tast, otac ~ father, dad, pops

Well, the /t/ maybe. The root in otac is ot-, cf. Gothic atta 'father'.

> -
>> This bound morpheme –bina or – vina (domo-vina ‘homeland’, otadž-bina ‘fatherland’, rod-bina ‘family’, kralje-vina ‘kingdom’, sud-bina ‘destiny’ etc.) serve as a descriptor of the “round” form (Serb. oblina ‘roundness’, Serb. oblik ‘form’; from *ho(n)bl-hn-); I named it “the secret of the ‘round circle’” :)
> -
> Bina, vina, oblina, *ho(n)bl-hn- oval, bowl?, (pig) pen/fence/pit?

The original form of this suffix is just -ina.

>>
>> The second word -kar-, -kor-, -kir- and similar, probably has the meaning 'lord' (cf. gr. κύρος). I suppose that Gr. κύρος comes out from the same “arsenal” as SSl. kralj, Russ. король, Lat. rex, regulus (loss of the initial velar, formed in a similar way as SSl. krugljevina > kraljevina (Serb. okruglo ‘round’, okrug ‘district’).
> -
> Okruglo ~ *(k)wkwelo@PIE, kolo@Pol, gulu@Chn, circular

Nope. The root is -krug-, Proto-Slavic *krõg 'circle', cognate with
Germanic *hring.

>>
>> If we take Hungarian király (king) we’ll see that this is a word based on Gr. kiros blended with Serb, kralj. Now we can clearly understand that Slavic kralj (kral, krol, karolj, kraljat) has nothing to do with the name of Carolus Magnus.
>>
>> To corroborate the above thinking, let’s mention the Slavic words krajina/pokrajina (Ukraine) which means province, region, district (similar to Serb. okrug ‘district’). If we now compare Latin regulus and region with Slavic kralj and krajina (from kraljevina > krajevina, cf. Craiova in Romania) it becomes absolutely clear that all these words were derived from the same source.
>>
>> Possessive case of SSl. svekar is svekrova, and mother-in-law’s is svekrvina. There is a possibility that the meaning of svekar is ‘holy master’ (a sort of a king among the husband’s family members). In fact, wife’s father-in-law for centuries was considered as a prominent and most important figure of the new household.

On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 8:44:00 PM UTC-4, benl...@ihug.co.nz wrote:
> On 17/05/2021 12:17 a.m., Daud Deden wrote:
> > (I add comments, not a slavic speaker nor a linguist.)
> >
> > On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 4:37:11 AM UTC-4, Dušan Vukotić wrote:
> >> It is very difficult to follow the development of the word svekar (father-in-law) in Slavic languages. It seems that this is a compound word (sve- + kar-). First word (sve-) might indicate that husband’s father was "sveti otac" (kind of 'holy father') to the married woman- ie. SSl. sveti otac > sve-tac 'saint'.
> > -
> > sveti ~ saintly ~ tzintli@Azt: saintly <~ tsuointli ~> otli@Azt: holy order vs potli: border, boundary
> > Suo ~ Xyua: through + uamb: womb/wamba/home => xyuambuatlay ~ family: father+mother+all(o)y/order
> > -
> >> In Serbian and most other Slavic languages, husband’s father-in-law is not svekar – but he is named differently - tast. Although we have no clear etymology for this word, it seems that tast was derived from the word tazbina (the property and family of the wife's father). Tazbina, as we can see, is very close to the SSl. otadžbina (fatherland) and now we can understand that Serb. tast has the same meaning as Sl. otac ‘father’.
> > -
> > Taz, tast, otac ~ father, dad, pops
> Well, the /t/ maybe. The root in otac is ot-, cf. Gothic atta 'father'.

ot- (xyuambh)UAT(l)AC(hya) uatac > otac, atta

[I hate the small L and big i being identical in text, I, l. Why'd they drop the top & bottom horizontal lines of the big i? Can I blame Peter for that? At least 1 is distinguishable.]

> > -
> >> This bound morpheme –bina or – vina (domo-vina ‘homeland’, otadž-bina ‘fatherland’, rod-bina ‘family’, kralje-vina ‘kingdom’, sud-bina ‘destiny’ etc.) serve as a descriptor of the “round” form (Serb. oblina ‘roundness’, Serb. oblik ‘form’; from *ho(n)bl-hn-); I named it “the secret of the ‘round circle’” :)
> > -
> > Bina, vina, oblina, *ho(n)bl-hn- oval, bowl?, (pig) pen/fence/pit?
> The original form of this suffix is just -ina.
Thanks, I hadn't realized the long hyphen before bina & vina indicated suffix.

> >> The second word -kar-, -kor-, -kir- and similar, probably has the meaning 'lord' (cf. gr. κύρος). I suppose that Gr. κύρος comes out from the same “arsenal” as SSl. kralj, Russ. король, Lat. rex, regulus (loss of the initial velar, formed in a similar way as SSl. krugljevina > kraljevina (Serb. okruglo ‘round’, okrug ‘district’).
> > -
> > Okruglo ~ *(k)wkwelo@PIE, kolo@Pol, gulu@Chn, circular
> Nope. The root is -krug-, Proto-Slavic *krõg 'circle', cognate with
> Germanic *hring.

Er, nope to yer nope.

mongolu@Mbuti: dome, moNGolu
harigolu@Indic: coracle, HaRI-Golu
hring@Grm: circle, HRInG
okruglo@Srb: round, oKRoGLo
gulu@Chn: dome, circle
Khudru@Tibet: coracle
Most likely that kruglo did not derive from krug but vice versa.
Neo-etymologists seek short roots, but often those roots were *trimmed* from more ancient words of high importance to stone age peoples.

Does anyone know the original meaning of Rig Veda?
Rex, Roy, Raj, Rix wore crowns = head ring?

> >> If we take Hungarian király (king) we’ll see that this is a word based on Gr. kiros blended with Serb, kralj. Now we can clearly understand that Slavic kralj (kral, krol, karolj, kraljat) has nothing to do with the name of Carolus Magnus.
> >>
> >> To corroborate the above thinking, let’s mention the Slavic words krajina/pokrajina (Ukraine) which means province, region, district (similar to Serb. okrug ‘district’). If we now compare Latin regulus and region with Slavic kralj and krajina (from kraljevina > krajevina, cf. Craiova in Romania) it becomes absolutely clear that all these words were derived from the same source.
> >>
> >> Possessive case of SSl. svekar is svekrova, and mother-in-law’s is svekrvina. There is a possibility that the meaning of svekar is ‘holy master’ (a sort of a king among the husband’s family members). In fact, wife’s father-in-law for centuries was considered as a prominent and most important figure of the new household.

On Monday, May 17, 2021 at 2:44:00 AM UTC+2, benl...@ihug.co.nz wrote:
> On 17/05/2021 12:17 a.m., Daud Deden wrote:
> > (I add comments, not a slavic speaker nor a linguist.)
> >
> > On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 4:37:11 AM UTC-4, Dušan Vukotić wrote:
> >> It is very difficult to follow the development of the word svekar (father-in-law) in Slavic languages. It seems that this is a compound word (sve- + kar-). First word (sve-) might indicate that husband’s father was "sveti otac" (kind of 'holy father') to the married woman- ie. SSl. sveti otac > sve-tac 'saint'.
> > -
> > sveti ~ saintly ~ tzintli@Azt: saintly <~ tsuointli ~> otli@Azt: holy order vs potli: border, boundary
> > Suo ~ Xyua: through + uamb: womb/wamba/home => xyuambuatlay ~ family: father+mother+all(o)y/order
> > -
> >> In Serbian and most other Slavic languages, husband’s father-in-law is not svekar – but he is named differently - tast. Although we have no clear etymology for this word, it seems that tast was derived from the word tazbina (the property and family of the wife's father). Tazbina, as we can see, is very close to the SSl. otadžbina (fatherland) and now we can understand that Serb. tast has the same meaning as Sl. otac ‘father’.
> > -
> > Taz, tast, otac ~ father, dad, pops

> Well, the /t/ maybe. The root in otac is ot-, cf. Gothic atta 'father'.

Serb. tata 'dad'. Probably, from baby's cooing: ma-ma, ta-ta, te-ta, de-da etc.

> >> This bound morpheme –bina or – vina (domo-vina ‘homeland’, otadž-bina ‘fatherland’, rod-bina ‘family’, kralje-vina ‘kingdom’, sud-bina ‘destiny’ etc.) serve as a descriptor of the “round” form (Serb. oblina ‘roundness’, Serb. oblik ‘form’; from *ho(n)bl-hn-); I named it “the secret of the ‘round circle’” :)
> > -
> > Bina, vina, oblina, *ho(n)bl-hn- oval, bowl?, (pig) pen/fence/pit?

> The original form of this suffix is just -ina.

Tast+bina > tazbina. otac+bina > otadžbina, rod+bina, sudbina 'destiny' sud 'judgment' + bina 'form, status, essence'... But it could be syncopated, like in Russian rodina < rodbina 'homeland'. Cf. English being,

> >> The second word -kar-, -kor-, -kir- and similar, probably has the meaning 'lord' (cf. gr. κύρος). I suppose that Gr. κύρος comes out from the same “arsenal” as SSl. kralj, Russ. король, Lat. rex, regulus (loss of the initial velar, formed in a similar way as SSl. krugljevina > kraljevina (Serb. okruglo ‘round’, okrug ‘district’). Postfix -ina is different, it mainly denotes movement gon-, gna- , hin-(cf. Eng. in, on) while -bina is static, mostly unchangeable.
> > -
> > Okruglo ~ *(k)wkwelo@PIE, kolo@Pol, gulu@Chn, circular

> Nope. The root is -krug-, Proto-Slavic *krõg 'circle', cognate with
> Germanic *hring.

Of course, you are right.

> >> If we take Hungarian király (king) we’ll see that this is a word based on Gr. kiros blended with Serb, kralj. Now we can clearly understand that Slavic kralj (kral, krol, karolj, kraljat) has nothing to do with the name of Carolus Magnus.
> >>
> >> To corroborate the above thinking, let’s mention the Slavic words krajina/pokrajina (Ukraine) which means province, region, district (similar to Serb. okrug ‘district’). If we now compare Latin regulus and region with Slavic kralj and krajina (from kraljevina > krajevina, cf. Craiova in Romania) it becomes absolutely clear that all these words were derived from the same source.
> >>
> >> Possessive case of SSl. svekar is svekrova, and mother-in-law’s is svekrvina. There is a possibility that the meaning of svekar is ‘holy master’ (a sort of a king among the husband’s family members). In fact, wife’s father-in-law for centuries was considered as a prominent and most important figure of the new household.

On Monday, May 17, 2021 at 1:11:46 AM UTC-4, Dušan Vukotić wrote:
> On Monday, May 17, 2021 at 2:44:00 AM UTC+2, benl...@ihug.co.nz wrote:
> > On 17/05/2021 12:17 a.m., Daud Deden wrote:
> > > (I add comments, not a slavic speaker nor a linguist.)
> > >
> > > On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 4:37:11 AM UTC-4, Dušan Vukotić wrote:
> > >> It is very difficult to follow the development of the word svekar (father-in-law) in Slavic languages. It seems that this is a compound word (sve- + kar-). First word (sve-) might indicate that husband’s father was "sveti otac" (kind of 'holy father') to the married woman- ie. SSl. sveti otac > sve-tac 'saint'.
> > > -
> > > sveti ~ saintly ~ tzintli@Azt: saintly <~ tsuointli ~> otli@Azt: holy order vs potli: border, boundary
> > > Suo ~ Xyua: through + uamb: womb/wamba/home => xyuambuatlay ~ family: father+mother+all(o)y/order
> > > -
> > >> In Serbian and most other Slavic languages, husband’s father-in-law is not svekar – but he is named differently - tast. Although we have no clear etymology for this word, it seems that tast was derived from the word tazbina (the property and family of the wife's father). Tazbina, as we can see, is very close to the SSl. otadžbina (fatherland) and now we can understand that Serb. tast has the same meaning as Sl. otac ‘father’.
> > > -
> > > Taz, tast, otac ~ father, dad, pops
>
> > Well, the /t/ maybe. The root in otac is ot-, cf. Gothic atta 'father'.
> Serb. tata 'dad'. Probably, from baby's cooing: ma-ma, ta-ta, te-ta, de-da etc.
> > >> This bound morpheme –bina or – vina (domo-vina ‘homeland’, otadž-bina ‘fatherland’, rod-bina ‘family’, kralje-vina ‘kingdom’, sud-bina ‘destiny’ etc.) serve as a descriptor of the “round” form (Serb. oblina ‘roundness’, Serb. oblik ‘form’; from *ho(n)bl-hn-); I named it “the secret of the ‘round circle’” :)
> > > -
> > > Bina, vina, oblina, *ho(n)bl-hn- oval, bowl?, (pig) pen/fence/pit?
>
> > The original form of this suffix is just -ina.
> Tast+bina > tazbina. otac+bina > otadžbina, rod+bina, sudbina 'destiny' sud 'judgment' + bina 'form, status, essence'... But it could be syncopated, like in Russian rodina < rodbina 'homeland'. Cf. English being,
>
> > >> The second word -kar-, -kor-, -kir- and similar, probably has the meaning 'lord' (cf. gr. κύρος). I suppose that Gr. κύρος comes out from the same “arsenal” as SSl. kralj, Russ. король, Lat. rex, regulus (loss of the initial velar, formed in a similar way as SSl. krugljevina > kraljevina (Serb. okruglo ‘round’, okrug ‘district’). Postfix -ina is different, it mainly denotes movement gon-, gna- , hin-(cf. Eng. in, on) while -bina is static, mostly unchangeable..
> > > -
> > > Okruglo ~ *(k)wkwelo@PIE, kolo@Pol, gulu@Chn, circular
>
> > Nope. The root is -krug-, Proto-Slavic *krõg 'circle', cognate with
> > Germanic *hring.
> Of course, you are right.

Right that *krõg is cognate with *hring, yes.
But I have demonstrated that there is good reason to think that okruglo or kruglo is the older form, based on comparing it to other tongues words for dome, coracle, ring, circle which end in gulu, golu.
mongolu@Mbuti: dome, moNGoLu
harigolu@Indic: coracle, HaRI-GoLu
hring@Grm: circle, HRING
okruglo@Srb: round, oKRuGLo
kragu@OCSlavonic: circle, KRaGu
gulu@Chn: dome, circle, GuLu
Khudru@Tibet: coracle, KHudRu
(Where K = H, L = R, O & U may change position.)
Kuphos@Grk: cup, coracle (cf Herakles)
Kufa@Arb: coracle
Curvus@Ltn: curved

*sker- (2) also *ker-, PIE root meaning "to turn, bend."

It forms all or part of: arrange; circa; circadian; circle; circuit; circum-;
It is the hypothetical source of/evidence for its existence is provided by: Latin curvus "bent, curved," crispus "curly;" Old Church Slavonic kragu "circle;" perhaps Greek kirkos "ring," koronos "curved;" Old English hring "ring, small circlet

> > >> If we take Hungarian király (king) we’ll see that this is a word based on Gr. kiros blended with Serb, kralj. Now we can clearly understand that Slavic kralj (kral, krol, karolj, kraljat) has nothing to do with the name of Carolus Magnus.
> > >>
> > >> To corroborate the above thinking, let’s mention the Slavic words krajina/pokrajina (Ukraine) which means province, region, district (similar to Serb. okrug ‘district’). If we now compare Latin regulus and region with Slavic kralj and krajina (from kraljevina > krajevina, cf. Craiova in Romania) it becomes absolutely clear that all these words were derived from the same source.
> > >>
> > >> Possessive case of SSl. svekar is svekrova, and mother-in-law’s is svekrvina. There is a possibility that the meaning of svekar is ‘holy master’ (a sort of a king among the husband’s family members). In fact, wife’s father-in-law for centuries was considered as a prominent and most important figure of the new household.

On 17/05/2021 4:35 p.m., Daud Deden wrote:
> On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 8:44:00 PM UTC-4, benl...@ihug.co.nz wrote:
>> On 17/05/2021 12:17 a.m., Daud Deden wrote:
>>> (I add comments, not a slavic speaker nor a linguist.)
>>>
>>> On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 4:37:11 AM UTC-4, Dušan Vukotić wrote:
>>>> It is very difficult to follow the development of the word svekar (father-in-law) in Slavic languages. It seems that this is a compound word (sve- + kar-). First word (sve-) might indicate that husband’s father was "sveti otac" (kind of 'holy father') to the married woman- ie. SSl. sveti otac > sve-tac 'saint'.
>>> -
>>> sveti ~ saintly ~ tzintli@Azt: saintly <~ tsuointli ~> otli@Azt: holy order vs potli: border, boundary
>>> Suo ~ Xyua: through + uamb: womb/wamba/home => xyuambuatlay ~ family: father+mother+all(o)y/order
>>> -
>>>> In Serbian and most other Slavic languages, husband’s father-in-law is not svekar – but he is named differently - tast. Although we have no clear etymology for this word, it seems that tast was derived from the word tazbina (the property and family of the wife's father). Tazbina, as we can see, is very close to the SSl. otadžbina (fatherland) and now we can understand that Serb. tast has the same meaning as Sl. otac ‘father’.
>>> -
>>> Taz, tast, otac ~ father, dad, pops
>> Well, the /t/ maybe. The root in otac is ot-, cf. Gothic atta 'father'.
>
> ot- (xyuambh)UAT(l)AC(hya) uatac > otac, atta
>
> [I hate the small L and big i being identical in text, I, l. Why'd they drop the top & bottom horizontal lines of the big i? Can I blame Peter for that? At least 1 is distinguishable.]
>
>>> -
>>>> This bound morpheme –bina or – vina (domo-vina ‘homeland’, otadž-bina ‘fatherland’, rod-bina ‘family’, kralje-vina ‘kingdom’, sud-bina ‘destiny’ etc.) serve as a descriptor of the “round” form (Serb. oblina ‘roundness’, Serb. oblik ‘form’; from *ho(n)bl-hn-); I named it “the secret of the ‘round circle’” :)
>>> -
>>> Bina, vina, oblina, *ho(n)bl-hn- oval, bowl?, (pig) pen/fence/pit?
>> The original form of this suffix is just -ina.
> Thanks, I hadn't realized the long hyphen before bina & vina indicated suffix.
>
>>>> The second word -kar-, -kor-, -kir- and similar, probably has the meaning 'lord' (cf. gr. κύρος). I suppose that Gr. κύρος comes out from the same “arsenal” as SSl. kralj, Russ. король, Lat. rex, regulus (loss of the initial velar, formed in a similar way as SSl. krugljevina > kraljevina (Serb. okruglo ‘round’, okrug ‘district’).
>>> -
>>> Okruglo ~ *(k)wkwelo@PIE, kolo@Pol, gulu@Chn, circular
>> Nope. The root is -krug-, Proto-Slavic *krõg 'circle', cognate with
>> Germanic *hring.
>
> Er, nope to yer nope.

I'm not sure what you're negating. Are you saying that both *krõg and
*kwkwelo can be derived from Xyuambuwatliwhatever? No news there.

> mongolu@Mbuti: dome, moNGolu
> harigolu@Indic: coracle, HaRI-Golu
> hring@Grm: circle, HRInG
> okruglo@Srb: round, oKRoGLo
> gulu@Chn: dome, circle
> Khudru@Tibet: coracle
> Most likely that kruglo did not derive from krug but vice versa.

No, it is not in the least likely to anyone acquainted with the facts.

> Neo-etymologists seek short roots, but often those roots were *trimmed* from more ancient words of high importance to stone age peoples.

So you have no evidence that this has happened in the case of kruglo,
apart from your belief that you know these "more ancient words".

> Does anyone know the original meaning of Rig Veda?
> Rex, Roy, Raj, Rix wore crowns = head ring?
>
>>>> If we take Hungarian király (king) we’ll see that this is a word based on Gr. kiros blended with Serb, kralj. Now we can clearly understand that Slavic kralj (kral, krol, karolj, kraljat) has nothing to do with the name of Carolus Magnus.
>>>>
>>>> To corroborate the above thinking, let’s mention the Slavic words krajina/pokrajina (Ukraine) which means province, region, district (similar to Serb. okrug ‘district’). If we now compare Latin regulus and region with Slavic kralj and krajina (from kraljevina > krajevina, cf. Craiova in Romania) it becomes absolutely clear that all these words were derived from the same source.
>>>>
>>>> Possessive case of SSl. svekar is svekrova, and mother-in-law’s is svekrvina. There is a possibility that the meaning of svekar is ‘holy master’ (a sort of a king among the husband’s family members). In fact, wife’s father-in-law for centuries was considered as a prominent and most important figure of the new household.

On 17/05/2021 5:11 p.m., Dušan Vukotić wrote:
> On Monday, May 17, 2021 at 2:44:00 AM UTC+2, benl...@ihug.co.nz wrote:
>> On 17/05/2021 12:17 a.m., Daud Deden wrote:
>>> (I add comments, not a slavic speaker nor a linguist.)
>>>
>>> On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 4:37:11 AM UTC-4, Dušan Vukotić wrote:
>>>> It is very difficult to follow the development of the word svekar (father-in-law) in Slavic languages. It seems that this is a compound word (sve- + kar-). First word (sve-) might indicate that husband’s father was "sveti otac" (kind of 'holy father') to the married woman- ie. SSl. sveti otac > sve-tac 'saint'.
>>> -
>>> sveti ~ saintly ~ tzintli@Azt: saintly <~ tsuointli ~> otli@Azt: holy order vs potli: border, boundary
>>> Suo ~ Xyua: through + uamb: womb/wamba/home => xyuambuatlay ~ family: father+mother+all(o)y/order
>>> -
>>>> In Serbian and most other Slavic languages, husband’s father-in-law is not svekar – but he is named differently - tast. Although we have no clear etymology for this word, it seems that tast was derived from the word tazbina (the property and family of the wife's father). Tazbina, as we can see, is very close to the SSl. otadžbina (fatherland) and now we can understand that Serb. tast has the same meaning as Sl. otac ‘father’.
>>> -
>>> Taz, tast, otac ~ father, dad, pops
>
>> Well, the /t/ maybe. The root in otac is ot-, cf. Gothic atta 'father'.
>
> Serb. tata 'dad'. Probably, from baby's cooing: ma-ma, ta-ta, te-ta, de-da etc.

Sure, we know about tata, dad, etc. But there's also ot-/at-; and otac
is not o-tac but ot-ac.

>>>> This bound morpheme –bina or – vina (domo-vina ‘homeland’, otadž-bina ‘fatherland’, rod-bina ‘family’, kralje-vina ‘kingdom’, sud-bina ‘destiny’ etc.) serve as a descriptor of the “round” form (Serb. oblina ‘roundness’, Serb. oblik ‘form’; from *ho(n)bl-hn-); I named it “the secret of the ‘round circle’” :)
>>> -
>>> Bina, vina, oblina, *ho(n)bl-hn- oval, bowl?, (pig) pen/fence/pit?
>
>> The original form of this suffix is just -ina.
>
> Tast+bina > tazbina. otac+bina > otadžbina, rod+bina, sudbina 'destiny' sud 'judgment' + bina 'form, status, essence'... But it could be syncopated, like in Russian rodina < rodbina 'homeland'. Cf. English being,

It has nothing to do with English being. And I'm quite sure that Ru
rod-ina, tiš-ina, glub-ina etc. never had a -b- in them. I'd say the
Serb. -b- was either analogically attached from some stem, or more
likely a separate suffix -- probably the -ba- suffix as in Ru sud'ba
'fate, destiny' (connecting with one of your examples), pros'ba
'request', služba 'service' etc.

>>>> The second word -kar-, -kor-, -kir- and similar, probably has the meaning 'lord' (cf. gr. κύρος). I suppose that Gr. κύρος comes out from the same “arsenal” as SSl. kralj, Russ. король, Lat. rex, regulus (loss of the initial velar, formed in a similar way as SSl. krugljevina > kraljevina (Serb. okruglo ‘round’, okrug ‘district’). Postfix -ina is different, it mainly denotes movement gon-, gna- , hin-(cf. Eng. in, on) while -bina is static, mostly unchangeable.
>>> -
>>> Okruglo ~ *(k)wkwelo@PIE, kolo@Pol, gulu@Chn, circular
>
>> Nope. The root is -krug-, Proto-Slavic *krõg 'circle', cognate with
>> Germanic *hring.
>
> Of course, you are right.
>
>>>> If we take Hungarian király (king) we’ll see that this is a word based on Gr. kiros blended with Serb, kralj. Now we can clearly understand that Slavic kralj (kral, krol, karolj, kraljat) has nothing to do with the name of Carolus Magnus.
>>>>
>>>> To corroborate the above thinking, let’s mention the Slavic words krajina/pokrajina (Ukraine) which means province, region, district (similar to Serb. okrug ‘district’). If we now compare Latin regulus and region with Slavic kralj and krajina (from kraljevina > krajevina, cf. Craiova in Romania) it becomes absolutely clear that all these words were derived from the same source.
>>>>
>>>> Possessive case of SSl. svekar is svekrova, and mother-in-law’s is svekrvina. There is a possibility that the meaning of svekar is ‘holy master’ (a sort of a king among the husband’s family members). In fact, wife’s father-in-law for centuries was considered as a prominent and most important figure of the new household.

On Monday, May 17, 2021 at 6:17:52 AM UTC-4, benl...@ihug.co.nz wrote:
> On 17/05/2021 4:35 p.m., Daud Deden wrote:
> > On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 8:44:00 PM UTC-4, benl...@ihug.co.nz wrote:
> >> On 17/05/2021 12:17 a.m., Daud Deden wrote:
> >>> (I add comments, not a slavic speaker nor a linguist.)
> >>>
> >>> On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 4:37:11 AM UTC-4, Dušan Vukotić wrote:
> >>>> It is very difficult to follow the development of the word svekar (father-in-law) in Slavic languages. It seems that this is a compound word (sve- + kar-). First word (sve-) might indicate that husband’s father was "sveti otac" (kind of 'holy father') to the married woman- ie. SSl. sveti otac > sve-tac 'saint'.
> >>> -
> >>> sveti ~ saintly ~ tzintli@Azt: saintly <~ tsuointli ~> otli@Azt: holy order vs potli: border, boundary
> >>> Suo ~ Xyua: through + uamb: womb/wamba/home => xyuambuatlay ~ family: father+mother+all(o)y/order
> >>> -
> >>>> In Serbian and most other Slavic languages, husband’s father-in-law is not svekar – but he is named differently - tast. Although we have no clear etymology for this word, it seems that tast was derived from the word tazbina (the property and family of the wife's father). Tazbina, as we can see, is very close to the SSl. otadžbina (fatherland) and now we can understand that Serb. tast has the same meaning as Sl. otac ‘father’.
> >>> -
> >>> Taz, tast, otac ~ father, dad, pops
> >> Well, the /t/ maybe. The root in otac is ot-, cf. Gothic atta 'father'..
> >
> > ot- (xyuambh)UAT(l)AC(hya) uatac > otac, atta
> >
> > [I hate the small L and big i being identical in text, I, l. Why'd they drop the top & bottom horizontal lines of the big i? Can I blame Peter for that? At least 1 is distinguishable.]
> >
> >>> -
> >>>> This bound morpheme –bina or – vina (domo-vina ‘homeland’, otadž-bina ‘fatherland’, rod-bina ‘family’, kralje-vina ‘kingdom’, sud-bina ‘destiny’ etc.) serve as a descriptor of the “round” form (Serb. oblina ‘roundness’, Serb. oblik ‘form’; from *ho(n)bl-hn-); I named it “the secret of the ‘round circle’” :)
> >>> -
> >>> Bina, vina, oblina, *ho(n)bl-hn- oval, bowl?, (pig) pen/fence/pit?
> >> The original form of this suffix is just -ina.
> > Thanks, I hadn't realized the long hyphen before bina & vina indicated suffix.
> >
> >>>> The second word -kar-, -kor-, -kir- and similar, probably has the meaning 'lord' (cf. gr. κύρος). I suppose that Gr. κύρος comes out from the same “arsenal” as SSl. kralj, Russ. король, Lat. rex, regulus (loss of the initial velar, formed in a similar way as SSl. krugljevina > kraljevina (Serb. okruglo ‘round’, okrug ‘district’).
> >>> -
> >>> Okruglo ~ *(k)wkwelo@PIE, kolo@Pol, gulu@Chn, circular
> >> Nope. The root is -krug-, Proto-Slavic *krõg 'circle', cognate with
> >> Germanic *hring.
> >
> > Er, nope to yer nope.
> I'm not sure what you're negating.

I'm saying that both *krõg and *hring were derived from a more ancient form which ended in -olu (-uatlua).

Are you saying that both *krõg and
> *kwkwelo can be derived from Xyuambuwatliwhatever? No news there.

Loosely so.

> > mongolu@Mbuti: dome, moNGolu
> > harigolu@Indic: coracle, HaRI-Golu
> > hring@Grm: circle, HRInG
> > okruglo@Srb: round, oKRoGLo
> > gulu@Chn: dome, circle
> > Khudru@Tibet: coracle
> > Most likely that kruglo did not derive from krug but vice versa.
> No, it is not in the least likely to anyone acquainted with the facts.

If your opinion is based on PIE only, your "facts" will diverge from the overall pattern of the human language.
> > Neo-etymologists seek short roots, but often those roots were *trimmed* from more ancient words of high importance to stone age peoples.
> So you have no evidence that this has happened in the case of kruglo,
> apart from your belief that you know these "more ancient words".

Rather, we can be certain that more ancient people slept securely within round constructed shelters and they used words to label them. I presented some evidence above.

> > Does anyone know the original meaning of Rig Veda?
> > Rex, Roy, Raj, Rix wore crowns = head ring?
> >
> >>>> If we take Hungarian király (king) we’ll see that this is a word based on Gr. kiros blended with Serb, kralj. Now we can clearly understand that Slavic kralj (kral, krol, karolj, kraljat) has nothing to do with the name of Carolus Magnus.
> >>>>
> >>>> To corroborate the above thinking, let’s mention the Slavic words krajina/pokrajina (Ukraine) which means province, region, district (similar to Serb. okrug ‘district’). If we now compare Latin regulus and region with Slavic kralj and krajina (from kraljevina > krajevina, cf. Craiova in Romania) it becomes absolutely clear that all these words were derived from the same source.
> >>>>
> >>>> Possessive case of SSl. svekar is svekrova, and mother-in-law’s is svekrvina. There is a possibility that the meaning of svekar is ‘holy master’ (a sort of a king among the husband’s family members). In fact, wife’s father-in-law for centuries was considered as a prominent and most important figure of the new household.

On Monday, May 17, 2021 at 9:13:21 AM UTC-4, Daud Deden wrote:
> On Monday, May 17, 2021 at 6:17:52 AM UTC-4, benl...@ihug.co.nz wrote:
> > On 17/05/2021 4:35 p.m., Daud Deden wrote:
> > > On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 8:44:00 PM UTC-4, benl...@ihug.co.nz wrote:
> > >> On 17/05/2021 12:17 a.m., Daud Deden wrote:
> > >>> (I add comments, not a slavic speaker nor a linguist.)
> > >>>
> > >>> On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 4:37:11 AM UTC-4, Dušan Vukotić wrote:
> > >>>> It is very difficult to follow the development of the word svekar (father-in-law) in Slavic languages. It seems that this is a compound word (sve- + kar-). First word (sve-) might indicate that husband’s father was "sveti otac" (kind of 'holy father') to the married woman- ie. SSl. sveti otac > sve-tac 'saint'.
> > >>> -
> > >>> sveti ~ saintly ~ tzintli@Azt: saintly <~ tsuointli ~> otli@Azt: holy order vs potli: border, boundary
> > >>> Suo ~ Xyua: through + uamb: womb/wamba/home => xyuambuatlay ~ family: father+mother+all(o)y/order
> > >>> -
> > >>>> In Serbian and most other Slavic languages, husband’s father-in-law is not svekar – but he is named differently - tast. Although we have no clear etymology for this word, it seems that tast was derived from the word tazbina (the property and family of the wife's father). Tazbina, as we can see, is very close to the SSl. otadžbina (fatherland) and now we can understand that Serb. tast has the same meaning as Sl. otac ‘father’.
> > >>> -
> > >>> Taz, tast, otac ~ father, dad, pops
> > >> Well, the /t/ maybe. The root in otac is ot-, cf. Gothic atta 'father'.
> > >
> > > ot- (xyuambh)UAT(l)AC(hya) uatac > otac, atta
> > >
> > > [I hate the small L and big i being identical in text, I, l. Why'd they drop the top & bottom horizontal lines of the big i? Can I blame Peter for that? At least 1 is distinguishable.]
> > >
> > >>> -
> > >>>> This bound morpheme –bina or – vina (domo-vina ‘homeland’, otadž-bina ‘fatherland’, rod-bina ‘family’, kralje-vina ‘kingdom’, sud-bina ‘destiny’ etc.) serve as a descriptor of the “round” form (Serb. oblina ‘roundness’, Serb. oblik ‘form’; from *ho(n)bl-hn-); I named it “the secret of the ‘round circle’” :)
> > >>> -
> > >>> Bina, vina, oblina, *ho(n)bl-hn- oval, bowl?, (pig) pen/fence/pit?
> > >> The original form of this suffix is just -ina.
> > > Thanks, I hadn't realized the long hyphen before bina & vina indicated suffix.
> > >
> > >>>> The second word -kar-, -kor-, -kir- and similar, probably has the meaning 'lord' (cf. gr. κύρος). I suppose that Gr. κύρος comes out from the same “arsenal” as SSl. kralj, Russ. король, Lat. rex, regulus (loss of the initial velar, formed in a similar way as SSl. krugljevina > kraljevina (Serb. okruglo ‘round’, okrug ‘district’).
> > >>> -
> > >>> Okruglo ~ *(k)wkwelo@PIE, kolo@Pol, gulu@Chn, circular
> > >> Nope. The root is -krug-, Proto-Slavic *krõg 'circle', cognate with
> > >> Germanic *hring.
> > >
> > > Er, nope to yer nope.
> > I'm not sure what you're negating.
> I'm saying that both *krõg and *hring were derived from a more ancient form which ended in -olu (-uatlua).
> Are you saying that both *krõg and
> > *kwkwelo can be derived from Xyuambuwatliwhatever? No news there.
> Loosely so.
> > > mongolu@Mbuti: dome, moNGolu
> > > harigolu@Indic: coracle, HaRI-Golu
> > > hring@Grm: circle, HRInG
> > > okruglo@Srb: round, oKRoGLo

gilgul@Hbr: cycle, wheel

> > > gulu@Chn: dome, circle
> > > Khudru@Tibet: coracle
> > > Most likely that kruglo did not derive from krug but vice versa.
> > No, it is not in the least likely to anyone acquainted with the facts.
> If your opinion is based on PIE only, your "facts" will diverge from the overall pattern of the human language.

In Hebrew, the word gilgul means "cycle" or "wheel"
https://g.co/kgs/NAXsXa

Looks similar to circle, and kirkar too looks similar

> > > Neo-etymologists seek short roots, but often those roots were *trimmed* from more ancient words of high importance to stone age peoples.
> > So you have no evidence that this has happened in the case of kruglo,
> > apart from your belief that you know these "more ancient words".
> Rather, we can be certain that more ancient people slept securely within round constructed shelters and they used words to label them. I presented some evidence above.
> > > Does anyone know the original meaning of Rig Veda?
> > > Rex, Roy, Raj, Rix wore crowns = head ring?
> > >
> > >>>> If we take Hungarian király (king) we’ll see that this is a word based on Gr. kiros blended with Serb, kralj. Now we can clearly understand that Slavic kralj (kral, krol, karolj, kraljat) has nothing to do with the name of Carolus Magnus.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> To corroborate the above thinking, let’s mention the Slavic words krajina/pokrajina (Ukraine) which means province, region, district (similar to Serb. okrug ‘district’). If we now compare Latin regulus and region with Slavic kralj and krajina (from kraljevina > krajevina, cf. Craiova in Romania) it becomes absolutely clear that all these words were derived from the same source.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Possessive case of SSl. svekar is svekrova, and mother-in-law’s is svekrvina. There is a possibility that the meaning of svekar is ‘holy master’ (a sort of a king among the husband’s family members). In fact, wife’s father-in-law for centuries was considered as a prominent and most important figure of the new household.

On Monday, May 17, 2021 at 1:08:38 PM UTC+2, benl...@ihug.co.nz wrote:
> On 17/05/2021 5:11 p.m., Dušan Vukotić wrote:
> > On Monday, May 17, 2021 at 2:44:00 AM UTC+2, benl...@ihug.co.nz wrote:
> >> On 17/05/2021 12:17 a.m., Daud Deden wrote:
> >>> (I add comments, not a slavic speaker nor a linguist.)
> >>>
> >>> On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 4:37:11 AM UTC-4, Dušan Vukotić wrote:
> >>>> It is very difficult to follow the development of the word svekar (father-in-law) in Slavic languages. It seems that this is a compound word (sve- + kar-). First word (sve-) might indicate that husband’s father was "sveti otac" (kind of 'holy father') to the married woman- ie. SSl. sveti otac > sve-tac 'saint'.
> >>> -
> >>> sveti ~ saintly ~ tzintli@Azt: saintly <~ tsuointli ~> otli@Azt: holy order vs potli: border, boundary
> >>> Suo ~ Xyua: through + uamb: womb/wamba/home => xyuambuatlay ~ family: father+mother+all(o)y/order
> >>> -
> >>>> In Serbian and most other Slavic languages, husband’s father-in-law is not svekar – but he is named differently - tast. Although we have no clear etymology for this word, it seems that tast was derived from the word tazbina (the property and family of the wife's father). Tazbina, as we can see, is very close to the SSl. otadžbina (fatherland) and now we can understand that Serb. tast has the same meaning as Sl. otac ‘father’.
> >>> -
> >>> Taz, tast, otac ~ father, dad, pops
> >
> >> Well, the /t/ maybe. The root in otac is ot-, cf. Gothic atta 'father'..
> >
> > Serb. tata 'dad'. Probably, from baby's cooing: ma-ma, ta-ta, te-ta, de-da etc.
> Sure, we know about tata, dad, etc. But there's also ot-/at-; and otac
> is not o-tac but ot-ac.
> >>>> This bound morpheme –bina or – vina (domo-vina ‘homeland’, otadž-bina ‘fatherland’, rod-bina ‘family’, kralje-vina ‘kingdom’, sud-bina ‘destiny’ etc.) serve as a descriptor of the “round” form (Serb. oblina ‘roundness’, Serb. oblik ‘form’; from *ho(n)bl-hn-); I named it “the secret of the ‘round circle’” :)
> >>> -
> >>> Bina, vina, oblina, *ho(n)bl-hn- oval, bowl?, (pig) pen/fence/pit?
> >
> >> The original form of this suffix is just -ina.
> >
> > Tast+bina > tazbina. otac+bina > otadžbina, rod+bina, sudbina 'destiny' sud 'judgment' + bina 'form, status, essence'... But it could be syncopated, like in Russian rodina < rodbina 'homeland'. Cf. English being,
> It has nothing to do with English being. And I'm quite sure that Ru
> rod-ina, tiš-ina, glub-ina etc. never had a -b- in them. I'd say the
> Serb. -b- was either analogically attached from some stem, or more
> likely a separate suffix -- probably the -ba- suffix as in Ru sud'ba
> 'fate, destiny' (connecting with one of your examples), pros'ba
> 'request', služba 'service' etc.

Postfix -ina is different, it mainly denotes movement gon-, gna- , hin- (cf.. Eng. in, on, go, Germ. gehen, hin. Czech. hon 'chase, hunt') while -bina is static, denotes essence, form, position. Russian suđ-ba/судьба is the same word as Serbian sud-bina. Russian glub-ina is -ina suffixed (глубина 'depth, deepness'). It is enormously interesting word. In Czech depth is hlubina, Slovenian globina, Serbian dubina, Belarus глыбіня/ɣlibinja and there are a hundreds if not thousands of related words to glubina: like duplja 'cavity', šupljina 'hollow, cavity', klopka 'trap', debljna 'thickness', deblo 'trunk', dleto 'chisel'. Everything comes from gon-bel- basis, initialy form (hn)oblak 'cloud' (Germ. Nebel 'fog', Greek νεφέλη 'cloud', Latin nebula, Russian небо/небо 'sky', noble etc. etc... you just need to find the right thread, and everything is gushing out into the daylight by itself.

> >>>> The second word -kar-, -kor-, -kir- and similar, probably has the meaning 'lord' (cf. gr. κύρος). I suppose that Gr. κύρος comes out from the same “arsenal” as SSl. kralj, Russ. король, Lat. rex, regulus (loss of the initial velar, formed in a similar way as SSl. krugljevina > kraljevina (Serb. okruglo ‘round’, okrug ‘district’). Postfix -ina is different, it mainly denotes movement gon-, gna- , hin-(cf. Eng. in, on) while -bina is static, mostly unchangeable..
> >>> -
> >>> Okruglo ~ *(k)wkwelo@PIE, kolo@Pol, gulu@Chn, circular
> >
> >> Nope. The root is -krug-, Proto-Slavic *krõg 'circle', cognate with
> >> Germanic *hring.
> >
> > Of course, you are right.
> >
> >>>> If we take Hungarian király (king) we’ll see that this is a word based on Gr. kiros blended with Serb, kralj. Now we can clearly understand that Slavic kralj (kral, krol, karolj, kraljat) has nothing to do with the name of Carolus Magnus.
> >>>>
> >>>> To corroborate the above thinking, let’s mention the Slavic words krajina/pokrajina (Ukraine) which means province, region, district (similar to Serb. okrug ‘district’). If we now compare Latin regulus and region with Slavic kralj and krajina (from kraljevina > krajevina, cf. Craiova in Romania) it becomes absolutely clear that all these words were derived from the same source.
> >>>>
> >>>> Possessive case of SSl. svekar is svekrova, and mother-in-law’s is svekrvina. There is a possibility that the meaning of svekar is ‘holy master’ (a sort of a king among the husband’s family members). In fact, wife’s father-in-law for centuries was considered as a prominent and most important figure of the new household.

On 18/05/2021 1:13 a.m., Daud Deden wrote:
> On Monday, May 17, 2021 at 6:17:52 AM UTC-4, benl...@ihug.co.nz wrote:
>> On 17/05/2021 4:35 p.m., Daud Deden wrote:
>>> On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 8:44:00 PM UTC-4, benl...@ihug.co.nz wrote:
>>>> On 17/05/2021 12:17 a.m., Daud Deden wrote:
>>>>> (I add comments, not a slavic speaker nor a linguist.)
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 4:37:11 AM UTC-4, Dušan Vukotić wrote:
>>>>>> It is very difficult to follow the development of the word svekar (father-in-law) in Slavic languages. It seems that this is a compound word (sve- + kar-). First word (sve-) might indicate that husband’s father was "sveti otac" (kind of 'holy father') to the married woman- ie. SSl. sveti otac > sve-tac 'saint'.
>>>>> -
>>>>> sveti ~ saintly ~ tzintli@Azt: saintly <~ tsuointli ~> otli@Azt: holy order vs potli: border, boundary
>>>>> Suo ~ Xyua: through + uamb: womb/wamba/home => xyuambuatlay ~ family: father+mother+all(o)y/order
>>>>> -
>>>>>> In Serbian and most other Slavic languages, husband’s father-in-law is not svekar – but he is named differently - tast. Although we have no clear etymology for this word, it seems that tast was derived from the word tazbina (the property and family of the wife's father). Tazbina, as we can see, is very close to the SSl. otadžbina (fatherland) and now we can understand that Serb. tast has the same meaning as Sl. otac ‘father’.
>>>>> -
>>>>> Taz, tast, otac ~ father, dad, pops
>>>> Well, the /t/ maybe. The root in otac is ot-, cf. Gothic atta 'father'.
>>>
>>> ot- (xyuambh)UAT(l)AC(hya) uatac > otac, atta
>>>
>>> [I hate the small L and big i being identical in text, I, l. Why'd they drop the top & bottom horizontal lines of the big i? Can I blame Peter for that? At least 1 is distinguishable.]
>>>
>>>>> -
>>>>>> This bound morpheme –bina or – vina (domo-vina ‘homeland’, otadž-bina ‘fatherland’, rod-bina ‘family’, kralje-vina ‘kingdom’, sud-bina ‘destiny’ etc.) serve as a descriptor of the “round” form (Serb. oblina ‘roundness’, Serb. oblik ‘form’; from *ho(n)bl-hn-); I named it “the secret of the ‘round circle’” :)
>>>>> -
>>>>> Bina, vina, oblina, *ho(n)bl-hn- oval, bowl?, (pig) pen/fence/pit?
>>>> The original form of this suffix is just -ina.
>>> Thanks, I hadn't realized the long hyphen before bina & vina indicated suffix.
>>>
>>>>>> The second word -kar-, -kor-, -kir- and similar, probably has the meaning 'lord' (cf. gr. κύρος). I suppose that Gr. κύρος comes out from the same “arsenal” as SSl. kralj, Russ. король, Lat. rex, regulus (loss of the initial velar, formed in a similar way as SSl. krugljevina > kraljevina (Serb. okruglo ‘round’, okrug ‘district’).
>>>>> -
>>>>> Okruglo ~ *(k)wkwelo@PIE, kolo@Pol, gulu@Chn, circular
>>>> Nope. The root is -krug-, Proto-Slavic *krõg 'circle', cognate with
>>>> Germanic *hring.
>>>
>>> Er, nope to yer nope.
>> I'm not sure what you're negating.
>
> I'm saying that both *krõg and *hring were derived from a more ancient form which ended in -olu (-uatlua).
>
> Are you saying that both *krõg and
>> *kwkwelo can be derived from Xyuambuwatliwhatever? No news there.
>
> Loosely so.
>
>>> mongolu@Mbuti: dome, moNGolu
>>> harigolu@Indic: coracle, HaRI-Golu
>>> hring@Grm: circle, HRInG
>>> okruglo@Srb: round, oKRoGLo
>>> gulu@Chn: dome, circle
>>> Khudru@Tibet: coracle
>>> Most likely that kruglo did not derive from krug but vice versa.
>> No, it is not in the least likely to anyone acquainted with the facts.
>
> If your opinion is based on PIE only, your "facts" will diverge from the overall pattern of the human language.

That wouldn't make them any less facts. Kruglo is a formation within
Slavic, from krug and an adjective-forming suffix (-lo). To suggest that
krug is derived from kruglo betrays an ignorance of those facts.

What you are suggesting is that both krug/hring and *kwkwelo derive from
one of your big mother-words which contained them both. That's not "vice
versa".

>>> Neo-etymologists seek short roots, but often those roots were *trimmed* from more ancient words of high importance to stone age peoples.
>> So you have no evidence that this has happened in the case of kruglo,
>> apart from your belief that you know these "more ancient words".
>
> Rather, we can be certain that more ancient people slept securely within round constructed shelters and they used words to label them. I presented some evidence above.

As I said.

>>> Does anyone know the original meaning of Rig Veda?
>>> Rex, Roy, Raj, Rix wore crowns = head ring?
>>>
>>>>>> If we take Hungarian király (king) we’ll see that this is a word based on Gr. kiros blended with Serb, kralj. Now we can clearly understand that Slavic kralj (kral, krol, karolj, kraljat) has nothing to do with the name of Carolus Magnus.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To corroborate the above thinking, let’s mention the Slavic words krajina/pokrajina (Ukraine) which means province, region, district (similar to Serb. okrug ‘district’). If we now compare Latin regulus and region with Slavic kralj and krajina (from kraljevina > krajevina, cf. Craiova in Romania) it becomes absolutely clear that all these words were derived from the same source.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Possessive case of SSl. svekar is svekrova, and mother-in-law’s is svekrvina. There is a possibility that the meaning of svekar is ‘holy master’ (a sort of a king among the husband’s family members). In fact, wife’s father-in-law for centuries was considered as a prominent and most important figure of the new household.

On Monday, May 17, 2021 at 5:18:46 PM UTC-4, benl...@ihug.co.nz wrote:
> On 18/05/2021 1:13 a.m., Daud Deden wrote:
> > On Monday, May 17, 2021 at 6:17:52 AM UTC-4, benl...@ihug.co.nz wrote:
> >> On 17/05/2021 4:35 p.m., Daud Deden wrote:
> >>> On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 8:44:00 PM UTC-4, benl...@ihug.co.nz wrote:
> >>>> On 17/05/2021 12:17 a.m., Daud Deden wrote:
> >>>>> (I add comments, not a slavic speaker nor a linguist.)
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 4:37:11 AM UTC-4, Dušan Vukotić wrote:
> >>>>>> It is very difficult to follow the development of the word svekar (father-in-law) in Slavic languages. It seems that this is a compound word (sve- + kar-). First word (sve-) might indicate that husband’s father was "sveti otac" (kind of 'holy father') to the married woman- ie. SSl. sveti otac > sve-tac 'saint'.
> >>>>> -
> >>>>> sveti ~ saintly ~ tzintli@Azt: saintly <~ tsuointli ~> otli@Azt: holy order vs potli: border, boundary
> >>>>> Suo ~ Xyua: through + uamb: womb/wamba/home => xyuambuatlay ~ family: father+mother+all(o)y/order
> >>>>> -
> >>>>>> In Serbian and most other Slavic languages, husband’s father-in-law is not svekar – but he is named differently - tast. Although we have no clear etymology for this word, it seems that tast was derived from the word tazbina (the property and family of the wife's father). Tazbina, as we can see, is very close to the SSl. otadžbina (fatherland) and now we can understand that Serb. tast has the same meaning as Sl. otac ‘father’.
> >>>>> -
> >>>>> Taz, tast, otac ~ father, dad, pops
> >>>> Well, the /t/ maybe. The root in otac is ot-, cf. Gothic atta 'father'.
> >>>
> >>> ot- (xyuambh)UAT(l)AC(hya) uatac > otac, atta
> >>>
> >>> [I hate the small L and big i being identical in text, I, l. Why'd they drop the top & bottom horizontal lines of the big i? Can I blame Peter for that? At least 1 is distinguishable.]
> >>>
> >>>>> -
> >>>>>> This bound morpheme –bina or – vina (domo-vina ‘homeland’, otadž-bina ‘fatherland’, rod-bina ‘family’, kralje-vina ‘kingdom’, sud-bina ‘destiny’ etc.) serve as a descriptor of the “round” form (Serb. oblina ‘roundness’, Serb. oblik ‘form’; from *ho(n)bl-hn-); I named it “the secret of the ‘round circle’” :)
> >>>>> -
> >>>>> Bina, vina, oblina, *ho(n)bl-hn- oval, bowl?, (pig) pen/fence/pit?
> >>>> The original form of this suffix is just -ina.
> >>> Thanks, I hadn't realized the long hyphen before bina & vina indicated suffix.
> >>>
> >>>>>> The second word -kar-, -kor-, -kir- and similar, probably has the meaning 'lord' (cf. gr. κύρος). I suppose that Gr. κύρος comes out from the same “arsenal” as SSl. kralj, Russ. король, Lat. rex, regulus (loss of the initial velar, formed in a similar way as SSl. krugljevina > kraljevina (Serb. okruglo ‘round’, okrug ‘district’).
> >>>>> -
> >>>>> Okruglo ~ *(k)wkwelo@PIE, kolo@Pol, gulu@Chn, circular
> >>>> Nope. The root is -krug-, Proto-Slavic *krõg 'circle', cognate with
> >>>> Germanic *hring.
> >>>
> >>> Er, nope to yer nope.
> >> I'm not sure what you're negating.
> >
> > I'm saying that both *krõg and *hring were derived from a more ancient form which ended in -olu (-uatlua).
> >
> > Are you saying that both *krõg and
> >> *kwkwelo can be derived from Xyuambuwatliwhatever? No news there.
> >
> > Loosely so.
> >
> >>> mongolu@Mbuti: dome, moNGolu
> >>> harigolu@Indic: coracle, HaRI-Golu
> >>> hring@Grm: circle, HRInG
> >>> okruglo@Srb: round, oKRoGLo
> >>> gulu@Chn: dome, circle
> >>> Khudru@Tibet: coracle
> >>> Most likely that kruglo did not derive from krug but vice versa.
> >> No, it is not in the least likely to anyone acquainted with the facts.
> >
> > If your opinion is based on PIE only, your "facts" will diverge from the overall pattern of the human language.
> That wouldn't make them any less facts.

-ina/-bina ~ otli/potli@Azt.
My claim is that these 4 items share a clear connection that cannot be found in any PIE or Linguistics "fact" book.

Kruglo is a formation within
> Slavic, from krug and an adjective-forming suffix (-lo). To suggest that
> krug is derived from kruglo betrays an ignorance of those facts.

What you refer to here as fact is in my opinion an opinion.

>
> What you are suggesting is that both krug/hring and *kwkwelo derive from
> one of your big mother-words which contained them both.

I have never referred to sny 'big mother words, only paleo-keywords (arid) xyuambuatlachya and (humid) njuambuangdualua and dialect variants. Those and Mbuti words apa, mongolu, nyama, njama & jambo.

The words were not pronounced the exact same 50ka as it is today due to evolution, but so many similar words in many languages point to either heavy borrowing (unlikely for basal words) or shared origin.

That's not "vice
> versa".
> >>> Neo-etymologists seek short roots, but often those roots were *trimmed* from more ancient words of high importance to stone age peoples.
> >> So you have no evidence that this has happened in the case of kruglo,
> >> apart from your belief that you know these "more ancient words".
> >
> > Rather, we can be certain that more ancient people slept securely within round constructed shelters and they used words to label them. I presented some evidence above.
> As I said.
> >>> Does anyone know the original meaning of Rig Veda?
> >>> Rex, Roy, Raj, Rix wore crowns = head ring?
> >>>
> >>>>>> If we take Hungarian király (king) we’ll see that this is a word based on Gr. kiros blended with Serb, kralj. Now we can clearly understand that Slavic kralj (kral, krol, karolj, kraljat) has nothing to do with the name of Carolus Magnus.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> To corroborate the above thinking, let’s mention the Slavic words krajina/pokrajina (Ukraine) which means province, region, district (similar to Serb. okrug ‘district’). If we now compare Latin regulus and region with Slavic kralj and krajina (from kraljevina > krajevina, cf. Craiova in Romania) it becomes absolutely clear that all these words were derived from the same source.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Possessive case of SSl. svekar is svekrova, and mother-in-law’s is svekrvina. There is a possibility that the meaning of svekar is ‘holy master’ (a sort of a king among the husband’s family members). In fact, wife’s father-in-law for centuries was considered as a prominent and most important figure of the new household.