These things claim to be able to charge up from a near dead 12V car
battery in just a few moments and then provide enough power to spin a
car over and start it. And moreover to be able to do this up to 25
times before the stored charged runs out. So say you have a knackered
car battery with a terminal voltage of only 9 or 10 volts, this thing
can draw enough energy out of it to provide 14V at sufficient current
to spin over an engine of over 400CI (that's a typically touted figure
for a normally aspirated petrol/gas engine and about 2/3 that for a
diesel).
It's the energy involved that I'm struggling to get my head around
here. How is this seemingly miraculous tranformation achieved? I've
been wanting to get a jump starter for emergencies for some time, but
was put off by the thought of having a bunch of lithium cells go up in
flames on me. This would seem to eliminate that risk.

Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com> wrote:
> These things claim to be able to charge up from a near dead 12V car
> battery in just a few moments and then provide enough power to spin a
> car over and start it. And moreover to be able to do this up to 25
> times before the stored charged runs out. So say you have a knackered
> car battery with a terminal voltage of only 9 or 10 volts, this thing
> can draw enough energy out of it to provide 14V at sufficient current
> to spin over an engine of over 400CI (that's a typically touted figure
> for a normally aspirated petrol/gas engine and about 2/3 that for a
> diesel).
> It's the energy involved that I'm struggling to get my head around
> here. How is this seemingly miraculous tranformation achieved? I've
> been wanting to get a jump starter for emergencies for some time, but
> was put off by the thought of having a bunch of lithium cells go up in
> flames on me. This would seem to eliminate that risk.
>

The Project Farm youtube channel has several jump pack comparos. Good
Medicine. (Plus Todd is a fun guy. )

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC /
Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 12:20:26 AM UTC+11, Cursitor Doom wrote:
> These things claim to be able to charge up from a near dead 12V car
> battery in just a few moments and then provide enough power to spin a
> car over and start it. And moreover to be able to do this up to 25
> times before the stored charged runs out. So say you have a knackered
> car battery with a terminal voltage of only 9 or 10 volts, this thing
> can draw enough energy out of it to provide 14V at sufficient current
> to spin over an engine of over 400CI (that's a typically touted figure
> for a normally aspirated petrol/gas engine and about 2/3 that for a
> diesel).
> It's the energy involved that I'm struggling to get my head around
> here. How is this seemingly miraculous tranformation achieved? I've
> been wanting to get a jump starter for emergencies for some time, but
> was put off by the thought of having a bunch of lithium cells go up in
> flames on me. This would seem to eliminate that risk.

Presumably there a boost regulator int there somewhere. If you have a big MOSFET switch to connect an inductor to the battery, and let it build up decent current in the inductor, then turn the MOSFET off, the voltage across the inductor could rise, until it got high to charge up a supercapacitor through a diode.

You can't store all that much energy in a inductor, but you can store quite a bit in super-capacitor, so if you kept on sipping away at your almost dead battery you could eventually transfer enough sips of energy to give you enough to start a car.

I've no idea how the gadgets work, but this strikes me as a plausible explanation. A a will probably denounced us both as off-topic trolls, but he won't come up with any idea of his own.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

On 30/12/2023 13:20, Cursitor Doom wrote:
> These things claim to be able to charge up from a near dead 12V car
> battery in just a few moments and then provide enough power to spin a
> car over and start it. And moreover to be able to do this up to 25
> times before the stored charged runs out. So say you have a knackered
> car battery with a terminal voltage of only 9 or 10 volts, this thing
> can draw enough energy out of it to provide 14V at sufficient current
> to spin over an engine of over 400CI (that's a typically touted figure
> for a normally aspirated petrol/gas engine and about 2/3 that for a
> diesel).

A lead acid battery at 9-10V is without any meaningful charge and won't
be able to supply any energy to a supercap.

A lead acid battery will have some residual charge after the point it
cannot supply the power to turn over a starter. However the terminal
voltage after a short recovery will be more than 12V.

> It's the energy involved that I'm struggling to get my head around
> here. How is this seemingly miraculous tranformation achieved? I've
> been wanting to get a jump starter for emergencies for some time, but
> was put off by the thought of having a bunch of lithium cells go up in
> flames on me. This would seem to eliminate that risk.

Supercaps have an incredibly low internal resistance. I don't know
enough about their internals but I am aware a bank of them, or two, can
supply megajoules to a magnetic coil-gun:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58MmOpSm4LY

On a sunny day (Sat, 30 Dec 2023 13:20:16 +0000) it happened Cursitor Doom
<cd@notformail.com> wrote in <fj50pilsqq9h8mo64qeqq9udrdbop7pf40@4ax.com>:

>These things claim to be able to charge up from a near dead 12V car
>battery in just a few moments and then provide enough power to spin a
>car over and start it. And moreover to be able to do this up to 25
>times before the stored charged runs out. So say you have a knackered
>car battery with a terminal voltage of only 9 or 10 volts, this thing
>can draw enough energy out of it to provide 14V at sufficient current
>to spin over an engine of over 400CI (that's a typically touted figure
>for a normally aspirated petrol/gas engine and about 2/3 that for a
>diesel).
>It's the energy involved that I'm struggling to get my head around
>here. How is this seemingly miraculous tranformation achieved? I've
>been wanting to get a jump starter for emergencies for some time, but
>was put off by the thought of having a bunch of lithium cells go up in
>flames on me. This would seem to eliminate that risk.

It's simple, the battery open circuit voltage is much higher so say 14V
The sup[p]er capacitor will charge to that in a while..
When the battery is directly on the start motor the high internal resistance of an
almost empty battery will cause the voltage to drop to a useless low value,
nothing happens.

The internal resistance of a sup[p]er capacitor is extremely low,
So connecting it will put the full 14V or so on the starter motor.
So it is long charge time at a low current versus starting at a high current in a much shorter time.
The amount of charge in - and out (energy) is the same,
All that said I once had a Peugeot station where I could stick the crack in and start it
with real muscle power.

On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 13:20:16 +0000
Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com> wrote:

> I've
> been wanting to get a jump starter for emergencies for some time, but
> was put off by the thought of having a bunch of lithium cells go up in
> flames on me. This would seem to eliminate that risk.

I have one containing about a 15Ah lead-acid, so still easily liftable
with one hand without being an explosion risk. Lithium is smaller and
lighter with less self-discharge but as you say, a bit risky.

--
Joe

lørdag den 30. december 2023 kl. 19.08.54 UTC+1 skrev Fred Bloggs:
> On Saturday, December 30, 2023 at 8:20:26 AM UTC-5, Cursitor Doom wrote:
> > These things claim to be able to charge up from a near dead 12V car
> > battery in just a few moments and then provide enough power to spin a
> > car over and start it. And moreover to be able to do this up to 25
> > times before the stored charged runs out. So say you have a knackered
> > car battery with a terminal voltage of only 9 or 10 volts, this thing
> > can draw enough energy out of it to provide 14V at sufficient current
> > to spin over an engine of over 400CI (that's a typically touted figure
> > for a normally aspirated petrol/gas engine and about 2/3 that for a
> > diesel).
> > It's the energy involved that I'm struggling to get my head around
> > here. How is this seemingly miraculous tranformation achieved? I've
> > been wanting to get a jump starter for emergencies for some time, but
> > was put off by the thought of having a bunch of lithium cells go up in
> > flames on me. This would seem to eliminate that risk.
> Low battery cell voltage means low stored charge and low energy. If it lacks the energy to start the vehicle as a battery, then no amount of transformation is going to increase the energy content.
>
> Put that device in the same bin as the power factor correction devices for zero electric bills and similar junk.

you don't need lots of energy, you just need enough peak power to turn the starter for a few seconds
a wimpy battery can slowly charge a supercap that can then provide the peak power needed

really just an electric version of an inertial starter, like this

https://youtu.be/86xtTVMBTCQ?si=TKmIVpn4Xt4G3626&t=342

On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 10:08:49 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
<bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, December 30, 2023 at 8:20:26?AM UTC-5, Cursitor Doom wrote:
>> These things claim to be able to charge up from a near dead 12V car
>> battery in just a few moments and then provide enough power to spin a
>> car over and start it. And moreover to be able to do this up to 25
>> times before the stored charged runs out. So say you have a knackered
>> car battery with a terminal voltage of only 9 or 10 volts, this thing
>> can draw enough energy out of it to provide 14V at sufficient current
>> to spin over an engine of over 400CI (that's a typically touted figure
>> for a normally aspirated petrol/gas engine and about 2/3 that for a
>> diesel).
>> It's the energy involved that I'm struggling to get my head around
>> here. How is this seemingly miraculous tranformation achieved? I've
>> been wanting to get a jump starter for emergencies for some time, but
>> was put off by the thought of having a bunch of lithium cells go up in
>> flames on me. This would seem to eliminate that risk.
>
>Low battery cell voltage means low stored charge and low energy. If it lacks the energy to start the vehicle as a battery, then no amount of transformation is going to increase the energy content.
>
>Put that device in the same bin as the power factor correction devices for zero electric bills and similar junk.

A fully charged car battery stores megajoules. It takes kilojoules to
start a car. So a 99% dead battery still has enough energy to start a
car.

An ohmic load, like an old incandescent lamp, can totally discharge a
battery, but modern loads are electronic, nonlinear, so a modern car
doesn't fully discharge a battery any time soon.

Of course, the supercap charger specs are probably as bogus as most
such stuff, but they seem to work.

I have a lithium battery starter which I charge occasionally. I'm
optimistic it won't start my car on fire.

Hey, it's almost New Years Day, household battey replacement day!

On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 12:23:53 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
<bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, December 30, 2023 at 2:10:58?PM UTC-5, John Larkin wrote:
>> On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 10:08:49 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
>> <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >On Saturday, December 30, 2023 at 8:20:26?AM UTC-5, Cursitor Doom wrote:
>> >> These things claim to be able to charge up from a near dead 12V car
>> >> battery in just a few moments and then provide enough power to spin a
>> >> car over and start it. And moreover to be able to do this up to 25
>> >> times before the stored charged runs out. So say you have a knackered
>> >> car battery with a terminal voltage of only 9 or 10 volts, this thing
>> >> can draw enough energy out of it to provide 14V at sufficient current
>> >> to spin over an engine of over 400CI (that's a typically touted figure
>> >> for a normally aspirated petrol/gas engine and about 2/3 that for a
>> >> diesel).
>> >> It's the energy involved that I'm struggling to get my head around
>> >> here. How is this seemingly miraculous tranformation achieved? I've
>> >> been wanting to get a jump starter for emergencies for some time, but
>> >> was put off by the thought of having a bunch of lithium cells go up in
>> >> flames on me. This would seem to eliminate that risk.
>> >
>> >Low battery cell voltage means low stored charge and low energy. If it lacks the energy to start the vehicle as a battery, then no amount of transformation is going to increase the energy content.
>> >
>> >Put that device in the same bin as the power factor correction devices for zero electric bills and similar junk.
>> A fully charged car battery stores megajoules. It takes kilojoules to
>> start a car. So a 99% dead battery still has enough energy to start a
>> car.
>>
>> An ohmic load, like an old incandescent lamp, can totally discharge a
>> battery, but modern loads are electronic, nonlinear, so a modern car
>> doesn't fully discharge a battery any time soon.
>>
>> Of course, the supercap charger specs are probably as bogus as most
>> such stuff, but they seem to work.
>>
>> I have a lithium battery starter which I charge occasionally. I'm
>> optimistic it won't start my car on fire.
>
>I'm pretty sure SAE spec is everything, including the starter, works down to 8V. If the battery won't even turn the engine over, it's going to take forever to charge the supercapacitor.

Sounds like 10 minutes is typical.

>It sounds like the product is for more of the situation of a battery with heavily sulfated electrodes.
>
>I've noticed the super capacitors have come a long ways in miniaturization, so much so they're now being incorporated in standalone miniature
> millipower PV remote systems. They're all still low voltage but that's okay for logic circuits.
>
>
>>
>> Hey, it's almost New Years Day, household battey replacement day!
>
>Don't your detectors have the low batt beep alert?

The smoke+co detectors have 10-year lithium batteries.

On 31/12/2023 7:52 am, John Larkin wrote:
> On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 12:23:53 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
> <bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Saturday, December 30, 2023 at 2:10:58?PM UTC-5, John Larkin wrote:
>>> On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 10:08:49 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
>>> <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Saturday, December 30, 2023 at 8:20:26?AM UTC-5, Cursitor Doom wrote:
>>>>> These things claim to be able to charge up from a near dead 12V car
>>>>> battery in just a few moments and then provide enough power to spin a
>>>>> car over and start it. And moreover to be able to do this up to 25
>>>>> times before the stored charged runs out. So say you have a knackered
>>>>> car battery with a terminal voltage of only 9 or 10 volts, this thing
>>>>> can draw enough energy out of it to provide 14V at sufficient current
>>>>> to spin over an engine of over 400CI (that's a typically touted figure
>>>>> for a normally aspirated petrol/gas engine and about 2/3 that for a
>>>>> diesel).
>>>>> It's the energy involved that I'm struggling to get my head around
>>>>> here. How is this seemingly miraculous tranformation achieved? I've
>>>>> been wanting to get a jump starter for emergencies for some time, but
>>>>> was put off by the thought of having a bunch of lithium cells go up in
>>>>> flames on me. This would seem to eliminate that risk.
>>>>
>>>> Low battery cell voltage means low stored charge and low energy. If it lacks the energy to start the vehicle as a battery, then no amount of transformation is going to increase the energy content.
>>>>
>>>> Put that device in the same bin as the power factor correction devices for zero electric bills and similar junk.
>>> A fully charged car battery stores megajoules. It takes kilojoules to
>>> start a car. So a 99% dead battery still has enough energy to start a
>>> car.
>>>
>>> An ohmic load, like an old incandescent lamp, can totally discharge a
>>> battery, but modern loads are electronic, nonlinear, so a modern car
>>> doesn't fully discharge a battery any time soon.
>>>
>>> Of course, the supercap charger specs are probably as bogus as most
>>> such stuff, but they seem to work.
>>>
>>> I have a lithium battery starter which I charge occasionally. I'm
>>> optimistic it won't start my car on fire.
>>
>> I'm pretty sure SAE spec is everything, including the starter, works down to 8V. If the battery won't even turn the engine over, it's going to take forever to charge the supercapacitor.
>
> Sounds like 10 minutes is typical.
>
>
>
>> It sounds like the product is for more of the situation of a battery with heavily sulfated electrodes.
>>
>> I've noticed the super capacitors have come a long ways in miniaturization, so much so they're now being incorporated in standalone miniature
>> millipower PV remote systems. They're all still low voltage but that's okay for logic circuits.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Hey, it's almost New Years Day, household battey replacement day!
>>
>> Don't your detectors have the low batt beep alert?
>
>
> The smoke+co detectors have 10-year lithium batteries.

Lithium iron phosphate PP3 cells have been offering 10-year life for
some twenty years now. I used to have to buy them from Farnell/Newark.

They weren't cheap - about as much as the smoke alarm - but they were handy.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
>

In article <1151cf17-e9c1-413e-ac0d-192a91e0f58dn@googlegroups.com>,
Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Saturday, December 30, 2023 at 3:53:48 PM UTC-5, John Larkin wrote:
>> On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 12:23:53 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
>> <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >On Saturday, December 30, 2023 at 2:10:58?PM UTC-5, John Larkin wrote:
>> >> On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 10:08:49 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
>> >> <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >On Saturday, December 30, 2023 at 8:20:26?AM UTC-5, Cursitor Doom wrote:
>> >> >> These things claim to be able to charge up from a near dead 12V car
>> >> >> battery in just a few moments and then provide enough power to spin a
>> >> >> car over and start it. And moreover to be able to do this up to 25
>> >> >> times before the stored charged runs out. So say you have a knackered
>> >> >> car battery with a terminal voltage of only 9 or 10 volts, this thing
>> >> >> can draw enough energy out of it to provide 14V at sufficient current
>> >> >> to spin over an engine of over 400CI (that's a typically touted figure
>> >> >> for a normally aspirated petrol/gas engine and about 2/3 that for a
>> >> >> diesel).
>> >> >> It's the energy involved that I'm struggling to get my head around
>> >> >> here. How is this seemingly miraculous tranformation achieved? I've
>> >> >> been wanting to get a jump starter for emergencies for some time, but
>> >> >> was put off by the thought of having a bunch of lithium cells go up in
>> >> >> flames on me. This would seem to eliminate that risk.
>> >> >
>> >> >Low battery cell voltage means low stored charge and low energy. If it lacks the energy to start the vehicle as a battery,
>then no amount of transformation is going to increase the energy content.
>> >> >
>> >> >Put that device in the same bin as the power factor correction devices for zero electric bills and similar junk.
>> >> A fully charged car battery stores megajoules. It takes kilojoules to
>> >> start a car. So a 99% dead battery still has enough energy to start a
>> >> car.
>> >>
>> >> An ohmic load, like an old incandescent lamp, can totally discharge a
>> >> battery, but modern loads are electronic, nonlinear, so a modern car
>> >> doesn't fully discharge a battery any time soon.
>> >>
>> >> Of course, the supercap charger specs are probably as bogus as most
>> >> such stuff, but they seem to work.
>> >>
>> >> I have a lithium battery starter which I charge occasionally. I'm
>> >> optimistic it won't start my car on fire.
>> >
>> >I'm pretty sure SAE spec is everything, including the starter, works down to 8V. If the battery won't even turn the engine over,
>it's going to take forever to charge the supercapacitor.
>> Sounds like 10 minutes is typical.
>
>That Autowit thing on Amazon says the battery has to be no less than 12V to charge it. If the battery is less, you're supposed to go
>find a 12VDC somewhere.
>
>People wouldn't need this if they kept their cars charged with a 'battery maintainer.' They're just an unregulated 12V PV straight
>into the battery, nothing else. Once they've ruined their battery with excessive discharge, it will never fully charge right again.
>A maintainer prevents that. The maintainer has a lighter socket adapter which must be disconnected before you start the car.

I have discharged the gel battery of my Ford Mondeo Ghia several times
to approximately 5 volts. I charge with a current of mA till the battery recovers
to 10 Volt than increase slowly the current. The garage advises to
change the battery, but I can till start the motor with it.
It is from 2000, so if an interior light is left on, or the parking
lights, it is severely discharged.
It makes no sense to replace the battery, I make this mistake
at least once a year.
Conclusion the battery is not ruined, at least not totally.

Groetjes Albert
--
Don't praise the day before the evening. One swallow doesn't make spring.
You must not say "hey" before you have crossed the bridge. Don't sell the
hide of the bear until you shot it. Better one bird in the hand than ten in
the air. First gain is a cat spinning. - the Wise from Antrim -

On Saturday, December 30, 2023 at 8:06:45 AM UTC-6, Jan Panteltje wrote:
> On a sunny day (Sat, 30 Dec 2023 13:20:16 +0000) it happened Cursitor Doom
> <c...@notformail.com> wrote in <fj50pilsqq9h8mo64...@4ax.com>:
> >These things claim to be able to charge up from a near dead 12V car
> >battery in just a few moments and then provide enough power to spin a
> >car over and start it. And moreover to be able to do this up to 25
> >times before the stored charged runs out. So say you have a knackered
> >car battery with a terminal voltage of only 9 or 10 volts, this thing
> >can draw enough energy out of it to provide 14V at sufficient current
> >to spin over an engine of over 400CI (that's a typically touted figure
> >for a normally aspirated petrol/gas engine and about 2/3 that for a
> >diesel).
> >It's the energy involved that I'm struggling to get my head around
> >here. How is this seemingly miraculous tranformation achieved? I've
> >been wanting to get a jump starter for emergencies for some time, but
> >was put off by the thought of having a bunch of lithium cells go up in
> >flames on me. This would seem to eliminate that risk.
> It's simple, the battery open circuit voltage is much higher so say 14V
> The sup[p]er capacitor will charge to that in a while..
> When the battery is directly on the start motor the high internal resistance of an
> almost empty battery will cause the voltage to drop to a useless low value,
> nothing happens.
>
> The internal resistance of a sup[p]er capacitor is extremely low,
> So connecting it will put the full 14V or so on the starter motor.
> So it is long charge time at a low current versus starting at a high current in a much shorter time.
> The amount of charge in - and out (energy) is the same,
> All that said I once had a Peugeot station where I could stick the crack in and start it
> with real muscle power.

Of course, once you stick the crack in you can do superhuman things!

On Sun, 31 Dec 2023 12:08:14 +0100, albert@cherry.(none) (albert)
wrote:

>In article <1151cf17-e9c1-413e-ac0d-192a91e0f58dn@googlegroups.com>,
>Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:
>>On Saturday, December 30, 2023 at 3:53:48 PM UTC-5, John Larkin wrote:
>>> On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 12:23:53 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
>>> <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >On Saturday, December 30, 2023 at 2:10:58?PM UTC-5, John Larkin wrote:
>>> >> On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 10:08:49 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
>>> >> <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >> >On Saturday, December 30, 2023 at 8:20:26?AM UTC-5, Cursitor Doom wrote:
>>> >> >> These things claim to be able to charge up from a near dead 12V car
>>> >> >> battery in just a few moments and then provide enough power to spin a
>>> >> >> car over and start it. And moreover to be able to do this up to 25
>>> >> >> times before the stored charged runs out. So say you have a knackered
>>> >> >> car battery with a terminal voltage of only 9 or 10 volts, this thing
>>> >> >> can draw enough energy out of it to provide 14V at sufficient current
>>> >> >> to spin over an engine of over 400CI (that's a typically touted figure
>>> >> >> for a normally aspirated petrol/gas engine and about 2/3 that for a
>>> >> >> diesel).
>>> >> >> It's the energy involved that I'm struggling to get my head around
>>> >> >> here. How is this seemingly miraculous tranformation achieved? I've
>>> >> >> been wanting to get a jump starter for emergencies for some time, but
>>> >> >> was put off by the thought of having a bunch of lithium cells go up in
>>> >> >> flames on me. This would seem to eliminate that risk.
>>> >> >
>>> >> >Low battery cell voltage means low stored charge and low energy. If it lacks the energy to start the vehicle as a battery,
>>then no amount of transformation is going to increase the energy content.
>>> >> >
>>> >> >Put that device in the same bin as the power factor correction devices for zero electric bills and similar junk.
>>> >> A fully charged car battery stores megajoules. It takes kilojoules to
>>> >> start a car. So a 99% dead battery still has enough energy to start a
>>> >> car.
>>> >>
>>> >> An ohmic load, like an old incandescent lamp, can totally discharge a
>>> >> battery, but modern loads are electronic, nonlinear, so a modern car
>>> >> doesn't fully discharge a battery any time soon.
>>> >>
>>> >> Of course, the supercap charger specs are probably as bogus as most
>>> >> such stuff, but they seem to work.
>>> >>
>>> >> I have a lithium battery starter which I charge occasionally. I'm
>>> >> optimistic it won't start my car on fire.
>>> >
>>> >I'm pretty sure SAE spec is everything, including the starter, works down to 8V. If the battery won't even turn the engine over,
>>it's going to take forever to charge the supercapacitor.
>>> Sounds like 10 minutes is typical.
>>
>>That Autowit thing on Amazon says the battery has to be no less than 12V to charge it. If the battery is less, you're supposed to go
>>find a 12VDC somewhere.
>>
>>People wouldn't need this if they kept their cars charged with a 'battery maintainer.' They're just an unregulated 12V PV straight
>>into the battery, nothing else. Once they've ruined their battery with excessive discharge, it will never fully charge right again.
>>A maintainer prevents that. The maintainer has a lighter socket adapter which must be disconnected before you start the car.
>
>I have discharged the gel battery of my Ford Mondeo Ghia several times
>to approximately 5 volts. I charge with a current of mA till the battery recovers
>to 10 Volt than increase slowly the current. The garage advises to
>change the battery, but I can till start the motor with it.
>It is from 2000, so if an interior light is left on, or the parking
>lights, it is severely discharged.
>It makes no sense to replace the battery, I make this mistake
>at least once a year.
>Conclusion the battery is not ruined, at least not totally.
>
>Groetjes Albert

The auto supply stores here sell battery chargers that won't put
current into a low-voltage battery. The explanation is that the
battery is ruined, and of course you have to buy a new one.

I keep a bench power supply around. It will charge a "dead" battery,
and then it's good for a few more years.

Once I cobbled up a charger from a diode and a hair dryer, off the
120v AC line. That put enough voltage into the battery for the "smart"
charger to take over.

On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 10:25:59 -0800 (PST), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
<langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

>lørdag den 30. december 2023 kl. 19.08.54 UTC+1 skrev Fred Bloggs:
>> On Saturday, December 30, 2023 at 8:20:26?AM UTC-5, Cursitor Doom wrote:
>> > These things claim to be able to charge up from a near dead 12V car
>> > battery in just a few moments and then provide enough power to spin a
>> > car over and start it. And moreover to be able to do this up to 25
>> > times before the stored charged runs out. So say you have a knackered
>> > car battery with a terminal voltage of only 9 or 10 volts, this thing
>> > can draw enough energy out of it to provide 14V at sufficient current
>> > to spin over an engine of over 400CI (that's a typically touted figure
>> > for a normally aspirated petrol/gas engine and about 2/3 that for a
>> > diesel).
>> > It's the energy involved that I'm struggling to get my head around
>> > here. How is this seemingly miraculous tranformation achieved? I've
>> > been wanting to get a jump starter for emergencies for some time, but
>> > was put off by the thought of having a bunch of lithium cells go up in
>> > flames on me. This would seem to eliminate that risk.
>> Low battery cell voltage means low stored charge and low energy. If it lacks the energy to start the vehicle as a battery, then no amount of transformation is going to increase the energy content.
>>
>> Put that device in the same bin as the power factor correction devices for zero electric bills and similar junk.
>
>you don't need lots of energy, you just need enough peak power to turn the starter for a few seconds
>a wimpy battery can slowly charge a supercap that can then provide the peak power needed
>
>really just an electric version of an inertial starter, like this
>
>https://youtu.be/86xtTVMBTCQ?si=TKmIVpn4Xt4G3626&t=342

Ok, that's the key to it. But there must be some kind of DC-DC up
converter at the front end to bump the voltage from the ailing battery
up to 12V before it's passed to the supercaps? It wouldn't make sense
to attempt such a convertion at the output, immediately after the
capacitors.

On Sun, 31 Dec 2023 08:14:15 -0800, John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com>
wrote:

>On Sun, 31 Dec 2023 12:08:14 +0100, albert@cherry.(none) (albert)
>wrote:
>
>>In article <1151cf17-e9c1-413e-ac0d-192a91e0f58dn@googlegroups.com>,
>>Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>On Saturday, December 30, 2023 at 3:53:48 PM UTC-5, John Larkin wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 12:23:53 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
>>>> <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >On Saturday, December 30, 2023 at 2:10:58?PM UTC-5, John Larkin wrote:
>>>> >> On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 10:08:49 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
>>>> >> <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >> >On Saturday, December 30, 2023 at 8:20:26?AM UTC-5, Cursitor Doom wrote:
>>>> >> >> These things claim to be able to charge up from a near dead 12V car
>>>> >> >> battery in just a few moments and then provide enough power to spin a
>>>> >> >> car over and start it. And moreover to be able to do this up to 25
>>>> >> >> times before the stored charged runs out. So say you have a knackered
>>>> >> >> car battery with a terminal voltage of only 9 or 10 volts, this thing
>>>> >> >> can draw enough energy out of it to provide 14V at sufficient current
>>>> >> >> to spin over an engine of over 400CI (that's a typically touted figure
>>>> >> >> for a normally aspirated petrol/gas engine and about 2/3 that for a
>>>> >> >> diesel).
>>>> >> >> It's the energy involved that I'm struggling to get my head around
>>>> >> >> here. How is this seemingly miraculous tranformation achieved? I've
>>>> >> >> been wanting to get a jump starter for emergencies for some time, but
>>>> >> >> was put off by the thought of having a bunch of lithium cells go up in
>>>> >> >> flames on me. This would seem to eliminate that risk.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >Low battery cell voltage means low stored charge and low energy. If it lacks the energy to start the vehicle as a battery,
>>>then no amount of transformation is going to increase the energy content.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >Put that device in the same bin as the power factor correction devices for zero electric bills and similar junk.
>>>> >> A fully charged car battery stores megajoules. It takes kilojoules to
>>>> >> start a car. So a 99% dead battery still has enough energy to start a
>>>> >> car.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> An ohmic load, like an old incandescent lamp, can totally discharge a
>>>> >> battery, but modern loads are electronic, nonlinear, so a modern car
>>>> >> doesn't fully discharge a battery any time soon.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Of course, the supercap charger specs are probably as bogus as most
>>>> >> such stuff, but they seem to work.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> I have a lithium battery starter which I charge occasionally. I'm
>>>> >> optimistic it won't start my car on fire.
>>>> >
>>>> >I'm pretty sure SAE spec is everything, including the starter, works down to 8V. If the battery won't even turn the engine over,
>>>it's going to take forever to charge the supercapacitor.
>>>> Sounds like 10 minutes is typical.
>>>
>>>That Autowit thing on Amazon says the battery has to be no less than 12V to charge it. If the battery is less, you're supposed to go
>>>find a 12VDC somewhere.
>>>
>>>People wouldn't need this if they kept their cars charged with a 'battery maintainer.' They're just an unregulated 12V PV straight
>>>into the battery, nothing else. Once they've ruined their battery with excessive discharge, it will never fully charge right again.
>>>A maintainer prevents that. The maintainer has a lighter socket adapter which must be disconnected before you start the car.
>>
>>I have discharged the gel battery of my Ford Mondeo Ghia several times
>>to approximately 5 volts. I charge with a current of mA till the battery recovers
>>to 10 Volt than increase slowly the current. The garage advises to
>>change the battery, but I can till start the motor with it.
>>It is from 2000, so if an interior light is left on, or the parking
>>lights, it is severely discharged.
>>It makes no sense to replace the battery, I make this mistake
>>at least once a year.
>>Conclusion the battery is not ruined, at least not totally.
>>
>>Groetjes Albert
>
>The auto supply stores here sell battery chargers that won't put
>current into a low-voltage battery. The explanation is that the
>battery is ruined, and of course you have to buy a new one.
>
>I keep a bench power supply around. It will charge a "dead" battery,
>and then it's good for a few more years.
>
>Once I cobbled up a charger from a diode and a hair dryer, off the
>120v AC line. That put enough voltage into the battery for the "smart"
>charger to take over.

These "smart" chargers are just awful (just like most other stuff
marketed as "smart" - it's only smart for the company selling it, not
the customer).
You're better of with an old fashioned trickle charger at a couple of
amps. Yes, it takes an age, but it never fails and doesn't stress the
battery.

On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 9:33:49 AM UTC-8, Cursitor Doom wrote:
> On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 10:25:59 -0800 (PST), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
> <lang...@fonz.dk> wrote:
>
> >lørdag den 30. december 2023 kl. 19.08.54 UTC+1 skrev Fred Bloggs:
> >> On Saturday, December 30, 2023 at 8:20:26?AM UTC-5, Cursitor Doom wrote:
> >> > These things claim to be able to charge up from a near dead 12V car
> >> > battery ...

> >> Low battery cell voltage means low stored charge and low energy. If it lacks the energy to start the vehicle as a battery, then no amount of transformation is going to increase the energy content.
> >>
> >> Put that device in the same bin as the power factor correction devices for zero electric bills and similar junk.
> >
> >you don't need lots of energy, you just need enough peak power to turn the starter for a few seconds
> >a wimpy battery can slowly charge a supercap that can then provide the peak power needed
> >
> >really just an electric version of an inertial starter, like this
> >
> >https://youtu.be/86xtTVMBTCQ?si=TKmIVpn4Xt4G3626&t=342
> Ok, that's the key to it. But there must be some kind of DC-DC up
> converter at the front end to bump the voltage from the ailing battery
> up to 12V before it's passed to the supercaps? It wouldn't make sense
> to attempt such a convertion at the output, immediately after the
> capacitors.

When your battery is 'dead', that usually means the plates are sulfated; the
terminal voltage is still 12V under negligible loads, but internal resistance
is too high for starting to occur. Unfortunately, that means the battery
also won't recharge effectively, so the auto supply
store that says "replace your battery, we take credit cards" has
a pretty firm factual basis.

On 31.12.2023 18.14, John Larkin wrote:
> On Sun, 31 Dec 2023 12:08:14 +0100, albert@cherry.(none) (albert)
> wrote:
>
>> In article <1151cf17-e9c1-413e-ac0d-192a91e0f58dn@googlegroups.com>,
>> Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Saturday, December 30, 2023 at 3:53:48 PM UTC-5, John Larkin wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 12:23:53 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
>>>> <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Saturday, December 30, 2023 at 2:10:58?PM UTC-5, John Larkin wrote:
>>>>>> On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 10:08:49 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
>>>>>> <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Saturday, December 30, 2023 at 8:20:26?AM UTC-5, Cursitor Doom wrote:
>>>>>>>> These things claim to be able to charge up from a near dead 12V car
>>>>>>>> battery in just a few moments and then provide enough power to spin a
>>>>>>>> car over and start it. And moreover to be able to do this up to 25
>>>>>>>> times before the stored charged runs out. So say you have a knackered
>>>>>>>> car battery with a terminal voltage of only 9 or 10 volts, this thing
>>>>>>>> can draw enough energy out of it to provide 14V at sufficient current
>>>>>>>> to spin over an engine of over 400CI (that's a typically touted figure
>>>>>>>> for a normally aspirated petrol/gas engine and about 2/3 that for a
>>>>>>>> diesel).
>>>>>>>> It's the energy involved that I'm struggling to get my head around
>>>>>>>> here. How is this seemingly miraculous tranformation achieved? I've
>>>>>>>> been wanting to get a jump starter for emergencies for some time, but
>>>>>>>> was put off by the thought of having a bunch of lithium cells go up in
>>>>>>>> flames on me. This would seem to eliminate that risk.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Low battery cell voltage means low stored charge and low energy. If it lacks the energy to start the vehicle as a battery,
>>> then no amount of transformation is going to increase the energy content.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Put that device in the same bin as the power factor correction devices for zero electric bills and similar junk.
>>>>>> A fully charged car battery stores megajoules. It takes kilojoules to
>>>>>> start a car. So a 99% dead battery still has enough energy to start a
>>>>>> car.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> An ohmic load, like an old incandescent lamp, can totally discharge a
>>>>>> battery, but modern loads are electronic, nonlinear, so a modern car
>>>>>> doesn't fully discharge a battery any time soon.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Of course, the supercap charger specs are probably as bogus as most
>>>>>> such stuff, but they seem to work.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have a lithium battery starter which I charge occasionally. I'm
>>>>>> optimistic it won't start my car on fire.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm pretty sure SAE spec is everything, including the starter, works down to 8V. If the battery won't even turn the engine over,
>>> it's going to take forever to charge the supercapacitor.
>>>> Sounds like 10 minutes is typical.
>>>
>>> That Autowit thing on Amazon says the battery has to be no less than 12V to charge it. If the battery is less, you're supposed to go
>>> find a 12VDC somewhere.
>>>
>>> People wouldn't need this if they kept their cars charged with a 'battery maintainer.' They're just an unregulated 12V PV straight
>>> into the battery, nothing else. Once they've ruined their battery with excessive discharge, it will never fully charge right again.
>>> A maintainer prevents that. The maintainer has a lighter socket adapter which must be disconnected before you start the car.
>>
>> I have discharged the gel battery of my Ford Mondeo Ghia several times
>> to approximately 5 volts. I charge with a current of mA till the battery recovers
>> to 10 Volt than increase slowly the current. The garage advises to
>> change the battery, but I can till start the motor with it.
>> It is from 2000, so if an interior light is left on, or the parking
>> lights, it is severely discharged.
>> It makes no sense to replace the battery, I make this mistake
>> at least once a year.
>> Conclusion the battery is not ruined, at least not totally.
>>
>> Groetjes Albert
>
> The auto supply stores here sell battery chargers that won't put
> current into a low-voltage battery. The explanation is that the
> battery is ruined, and of course you have to buy a new one.
>
> I keep a bench power supply around. It will charge a "dead" battery,
> and then it's good for a few more years.
>
> Once I cobbled up a charger from a diode and a hair dryer, off the
> 120v AC line. That put enough voltage into the battery for the "smart"
> charger to take over.

Careful with the bench power supplies: They do not like if there is a
storage battery with some life in the output and the input goes off.

In cold winters we had more than enough of bench power supplies to
repair. It begins to be cold enough now (around -18 C or 0 F).

--

-TV

On Sun, 31 Dec 2023 17:55:51 +0000, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com>
wrote:

>On Sun, 31 Dec 2023 08:14:15 -0800, John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 31 Dec 2023 12:08:14 +0100, albert@cherry.(none) (albert)
>>wrote:
>>
>>>In article <1151cf17-e9c1-413e-ac0d-192a91e0f58dn@googlegroups.com>,
>>>Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>On Saturday, December 30, 2023 at 3:53:48 PM UTC-5, John Larkin wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 12:23:53 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
>>>>> <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> >On Saturday, December 30, 2023 at 2:10:58?PM UTC-5, John Larkin wrote:
>>>>> >> On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 10:08:49 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
>>>>> >> <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> >> >On Saturday, December 30, 2023 at 8:20:26?AM UTC-5, Cursitor Doom wrote:
>>>>> >> >> These things claim to be able to charge up from a near dead 12V car
>>>>> >> >> battery in just a few moments and then provide enough power to spin a
>>>>> >> >> car over and start it. And moreover to be able to do this up to 25
>>>>> >> >> times before the stored charged runs out. So say you have a knackered
>>>>> >> >> car battery with a terminal voltage of only 9 or 10 volts, this thing
>>>>> >> >> can draw enough energy out of it to provide 14V at sufficient current
>>>>> >> >> to spin over an engine of over 400CI (that's a typically touted figure
>>>>> >> >> for a normally aspirated petrol/gas engine and about 2/3 that for a
>>>>> >> >> diesel).
>>>>> >> >> It's the energy involved that I'm struggling to get my head around
>>>>> >> >> here. How is this seemingly miraculous tranformation achieved? I've
>>>>> >> >> been wanting to get a jump starter for emergencies for some time, but
>>>>> >> >> was put off by the thought of having a bunch of lithium cells go up in
>>>>> >> >> flames on me. This would seem to eliminate that risk.
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> >Low battery cell voltage means low stored charge and low energy. If it lacks the energy to start the vehicle as a battery,
>>>>then no amount of transformation is going to increase the energy content.
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> >Put that device in the same bin as the power factor correction devices for zero electric bills and similar junk.
>>>>> >> A fully charged car battery stores megajoules. It takes kilojoules to
>>>>> >> start a car. So a 99% dead battery still has enough energy to start a
>>>>> >> car.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> An ohmic load, like an old incandescent lamp, can totally discharge a
>>>>> >> battery, but modern loads are electronic, nonlinear, so a modern car
>>>>> >> doesn't fully discharge a battery any time soon.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Of course, the supercap charger specs are probably as bogus as most
>>>>> >> such stuff, but they seem to work.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> I have a lithium battery starter which I charge occasionally. I'm
>>>>> >> optimistic it won't start my car on fire.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >I'm pretty sure SAE spec is everything, including the starter, works down to 8V. If the battery won't even turn the engine over,
>>>>it's going to take forever to charge the supercapacitor.
>>>>> Sounds like 10 minutes is typical.
>>>>
>>>>That Autowit thing on Amazon says the battery has to be no less than 12V to charge it. If the battery is less, you're supposed to go
>>>>find a 12VDC somewhere.
>>>>
>>>>People wouldn't need this if they kept their cars charged with a 'battery maintainer.' They're just an unregulated 12V PV straight
>>>>into the battery, nothing else. Once they've ruined their battery with excessive discharge, it will never fully charge right again.
>>>>A maintainer prevents that. The maintainer has a lighter socket adapter which must be disconnected before you start the car.
>>>
>>>I have discharged the gel battery of my Ford Mondeo Ghia several times
>>>to approximately 5 volts. I charge with a current of mA till the battery recovers
>>>to 10 Volt than increase slowly the current. The garage advises to
>>>change the battery, but I can till start the motor with it.
>>>It is from 2000, so if an interior light is left on, or the parking
>>>lights, it is severely discharged.
>>>It makes no sense to replace the battery, I make this mistake
>>>at least once a year.
>>>Conclusion the battery is not ruined, at least not totally.
>>>
>>>Groetjes Albert
>>
>>The auto supply stores here sell battery chargers that won't put
>>current into a low-voltage battery. The explanation is that the
>>battery is ruined, and of course you have to buy a new one.
>>
>>I keep a bench power supply around. It will charge a "dead" battery,
>>and then it's good for a few more years.
>>
>>Once I cobbled up a charger from a diode and a hair dryer, off the
>>120v AC line. That put enough voltage into the battery for the "smart"
>>charger to take over.
>
>These "smart" chargers are just awful (just like most other stuff
>marketed as "smart" - it's only smart for the company selling it, not
>the customer).
>You're better of with an old fashioned trickle charger at a couple of
>amps. Yes, it takes an age, but it never fails and doesn't stress the
>battery.

Dumb old transformer-rectifier chargers worked great.

But keeping a bench-type power supply around, adjustable voltage and
current limit, is good for all sorts of things. Be careful about
polarity.

On 31/12/2023 4:14 pm, John Larkin wrote:
>
> Once I cobbled up a charger from a diode and a hair dryer, off the
> 120v AC line. That put enough voltage into the battery for the "smart"
> charger to take over.
>

That is actually a very smart way to charge: a sulfated battery can
easily need 40V or more to break down sulfate films and get charging
started. Line voltage is cheap!

piglet

On a sunny day (Sun, 31 Dec 2023 17:55:51 +0000) it happened Cursitor Doom
<cd@notformail.com> wrote in <kja3pilicsnar5bg8krbg7d4vh6j6avem2@4ax.com>:

>>>>> >On Saturday, December 30, 2023 at 2:10:58?PM UTC-5, John Larkin wrote:
>>The auto supply stores here sell battery chargers that won't put
>>current into a low-voltage battery. The explanation is that the
>>battery is ruined, and of course you have to buy a new one.
>>
>>I keep a bench power supply around. It will charge a "dead" battery,
>>and then it's good for a few more years.
>>
>>Once I cobbled up a charger from a diode and a hair dryer, off the
>>120v AC line. That put enough voltage into the battery for the "smart"
>>charger to take over.
>
>These "smart" chargers are just awful (just like most other stuff
>marketed as "smart" - it's only smart for the company selling it, not
>the customer).
>You're better of with an old fashioned trickle charger at a couple of
>amps. Yes, it takes an age, but it never fails and doesn't stress the
>battery.

I use my own designed lab supply to charge batteries, from small 1.5 V ones to big ones,
Programmable voltage, programmable current and timer if needed.
https://panteltje.online/panteltje/pic/pwr_pic/
Still need to add a feature that stops charging when the voltage goes down if things get full.
Used daily, on now, was just thrown together from some parts from the junk box..

My big lifepo4 250 Ah 12 V battery pack came with a special charger.
https://panteltje.online/pub/250_Ah_12V_to_230V_sinewave_IXXIMG_0796.JPG
And there is an other special charger for charging things from my solar panels.
Battery pack and 2 kW pure sinewave converter will make sure you can keep watching TV etc all night,
even just cook food and keep the fridge running if mains goes down.
Powers the microwave too.

On a sunny day (Sun, 31 Dec 2023 08:02:27 -0800 (PST)) it happened John Smiht
<utube.jocjo@xoxy.net> wrote in
<45af114f-5f1f-4476-b02c-4b712496e767n@googlegroups.com>:

>On Saturday, December 30, 2023 at 8:06:45 AM UTC-6, Jan Panteltje w=
>rote:
>> On a sunny day (Sat, 30 Dec 2023 13:20:16 +0000) it happened Cursitor Doo=
>m
>> <c...@notformail.com> wrote in <fj50pilsqq9h8mo64...@4ax.com>:
>> >These things claim to be able to charge up from a near dead 12V car
>> >battery in just a few moments and then provide enough power to spin a
>> >car over and start it. And moreover to be able to do this up to 25
>> >times before the stored charged runs out. So say you have a knackered
>> >car battery with a terminal voltage of only 9 or 10 volts, this thing
>> >can draw enough energy out of it to provide 14V at sufficient current
>> >to spin over an engine of over 400CI (that's a typically touted figure=
>
>> >for a normally aspirated petrol/gas engine and about 2/3 that for a
>> >diesel).
>> >It's the energy involved that I'm struggling to get my head around
>> >here. How is this seemingly miraculous tranformation achieved? I've
>> >been wanting to get a jump starter for emergencies for some time, but
>> >was put off by the thought of having a bunch of lithium cells go up in=
>
>> >flames on me. This would seem to eliminate that risk.
>> It's simple, the battery open circuit voltage is much higher so say 14V=
>
>> The sup[p]er capacitor will charge to that in a while..
>> When the battery is directly on the start motor the high internal resista=
>nce of an
>> almost empty battery will cause the voltage to drop to a useless low valu=
>e,
>> nothing happens.
>>
>> The internal resistance of a sup[p]er capacitor is extremely low,
>> So connecting it will put the full 14V or so on the starter motor.
>> So it is long charge time at a low current versus starting at a high curr=
>ent in a much shorter time.
>> The amount of charge in - and out (energy) is the same,
>> All that said I once had a Peugeot station where I could stick the crack =
>in and start it
>> with real muscle power.
>
>Of course, once you stick the crack in you can do superhuman things!

Sank your ferry much for the cocracktion!
My appollologies
eNglitch is not mai naval langlitch.
Could be a spellshaker tissue too.

You are right, crack powers the byethen family that stirs up wars away from their bed to
make money for the US Military Industrial Complex that is payed for by the poor taxpayers
and burns poor people using CIA clown idiots like shitlensky and nettanyahoo who think
they are the greatest but in fact are the greates idiots, just pawns in the US game.

On Sun, 31 Dec 2023 21:32:16 +0200, Tauno Voipio
<tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> wrote:

>On 31.12.2023 18.14, John Larkin wrote:
>> On Sun, 31 Dec 2023 12:08:14 +0100, albert@cherry.(none) (albert)
>> wrote:
>>
>>> In article <1151cf17-e9c1-413e-ac0d-192a91e0f58dn@googlegroups.com>,
>>> Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Saturday, December 30, 2023 at 3:53:48 PM UTC-5, John Larkin wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 12:23:53 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
>>>>> <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Saturday, December 30, 2023 at 2:10:58?PM UTC-5, John Larkin wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 10:08:49 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
>>>>>>> <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Saturday, December 30, 2023 at 8:20:26?AM UTC-5, Cursitor Doom wrote:
>>>>>>>>> These things claim to be able to charge up from a near dead 12V car
>>>>>>>>> battery in just a few moments and then provide enough power to spin a
>>>>>>>>> car over and start it. And moreover to be able to do this up to 25
>>>>>>>>> times before the stored charged runs out. So say you have a knackered
>>>>>>>>> car battery with a terminal voltage of only 9 or 10 volts, this thing
>>>>>>>>> can draw enough energy out of it to provide 14V at sufficient current
>>>>>>>>> to spin over an engine of over 400CI (that's a typically touted figure
>>>>>>>>> for a normally aspirated petrol/gas engine and about 2/3 that for a
>>>>>>>>> diesel).
>>>>>>>>> It's the energy involved that I'm struggling to get my head around
>>>>>>>>> here. How is this seemingly miraculous tranformation achieved? I've
>>>>>>>>> been wanting to get a jump starter for emergencies for some time, but
>>>>>>>>> was put off by the thought of having a bunch of lithium cells go up in
>>>>>>>>> flames on me. This would seem to eliminate that risk.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Low battery cell voltage means low stored charge and low energy. If it lacks the energy to start the vehicle as a battery,
>>>> then no amount of transformation is going to increase the energy content.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Put that device in the same bin as the power factor correction devices for zero electric bills and similar junk.
>>>>>>> A fully charged car battery stores megajoules. It takes kilojoules to
>>>>>>> start a car. So a 99% dead battery still has enough energy to start a
>>>>>>> car.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> An ohmic load, like an old incandescent lamp, can totally discharge a
>>>>>>> battery, but modern loads are electronic, nonlinear, so a modern car
>>>>>>> doesn't fully discharge a battery any time soon.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Of course, the supercap charger specs are probably as bogus as most
>>>>>>> such stuff, but they seem to work.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have a lithium battery starter which I charge occasionally. I'm
>>>>>>> optimistic it won't start my car on fire.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm pretty sure SAE spec is everything, including the starter, works down to 8V. If the battery won't even turn the engine over,
>>>> it's going to take forever to charge the supercapacitor.
>>>>> Sounds like 10 minutes is typical.
>>>>
>>>> That Autowit thing on Amazon says the battery has to be no less than 12V to charge it. If the battery is less, you're supposed to go
>>>> find a 12VDC somewhere.
>>>>
>>>> People wouldn't need this if they kept their cars charged with a 'battery maintainer.' They're just an unregulated 12V PV straight
>>>> into the battery, nothing else. Once they've ruined their battery with excessive discharge, it will never fully charge right again.
>>>> A maintainer prevents that. The maintainer has a lighter socket adapter which must be disconnected before you start the car.
>>>
>>> I have discharged the gel battery of my Ford Mondeo Ghia several times
>>> to approximately 5 volts. I charge with a current of mA till the battery recovers
>>> to 10 Volt than increase slowly the current. The garage advises to
>>> change the battery, but I can till start the motor with it.
>>> It is from 2000, so if an interior light is left on, or the parking
>>> lights, it is severely discharged.
>>> It makes no sense to replace the battery, I make this mistake
>>> at least once a year.
>>> Conclusion the battery is not ruined, at least not totally.
>>>
>>> Groetjes Albert
>>
>> The auto supply stores here sell battery chargers that won't put
>> current into a low-voltage battery. The explanation is that the
>> battery is ruined, and of course you have to buy a new one.
>>
>> I keep a bench power supply around. It will charge a "dead" battery,
>> and then it's good for a few more years.
>>
>> Once I cobbled up a charger from a diode and a hair dryer, off the
>> 120v AC line. That put enough voltage into the battery for the "smart"
>> charger to take over.
>
>
>Careful with the bench power supplies: They do not like if there is a
>storage battery with some life in the output and the input goes off.

That sounds like a very bad design, linear or switching.

>
>In cold winters we had more than enough of bench power supplies to
>repair. It begins to be cold enough now (around -18 C or 0 F).

On 2.1.2024 21.01, john larkin wrote:
>>
>>
>> Careful with the bench power supplies: They do not like if there is a
>> storage battery with some life in the output and the input goes off.
>
> That sounds like a very bad design, linear or switching.
>
>>
>> In cold winters we had more than enough of bench power supplies to
>> repair. It begins to be cold enough now (around -18 C or 0 F).

That happened in the 1970's, when we had a couple of pretty cold
winters, down to -30C. The power supplies were off-the-shelf lab
power supplies common at that time, no switchers at all.

--

-TV

In article <bd636389-0a66-4610-9da1-48204bfdbc0an@googlegroups.com>,
Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 6:08:27 AM UTC-5, none albert wrote:
>> In article <1151cf17-e9c1-413e...@googlegroups.com>,
>> Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >On Saturday, December 30, 2023 at 3:53:48 PM UTC-5, John Larkin wrote:
>> >> On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 12:23:53 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
>> >> <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >On Saturday, December 30, 2023 at 2:10:58?PM UTC-5, John Larkin wrote:
>> >> >> On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 10:08:49 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
>> >> >> <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >> >On Saturday, December 30, 2023 at 8:20:26?AM UTC-5, Cursitor Doom wrote:
>> >> >> >> These things claim to be able to charge up from a near dead 12V car
>> >> >> >> battery in just a few moments and then provide enough power to spin a
>> >> >> >> car over and start it. And moreover to be able to do this up to 25
>> >> >> >> times before the stored charged runs out. So say you have a knackered
>> >> >> >> car battery with a terminal voltage of only 9 or 10 volts, this thing
>> >> >> >> can draw enough energy out of it to provide 14V at sufficient current
>> >> >> >> to spin over an engine of over 400CI (that's a typically touted figure
>> >> >> >> for a normally aspirated petrol/gas engine and about 2/3 that for a
>> >> >> >> diesel).
>> >> >> >> It's the energy involved that I'm struggling to get my head around
>> >> >> >> here. How is this seemingly miraculous tranformation achieved? I've
>> >> >> >> been wanting to get a jump starter for emergencies for some time, but
>> >> >> >> was put off by the thought of having a bunch of lithium cells go up in
>> >> >> >> flames on me. This would seem to eliminate that risk.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >Low battery cell voltage means low stored charge and low energy. If it lacks the energy to start the vehicle as a battery,
>> >then no amount of transformation is going to increase the energy content.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >Put that device in the same bin as the power factor correction devices for zero electric bills and similar junk.
>> >> >> A fully charged car battery stores megajoules. It takes kilojoules to
>> >> >> start a car. So a 99% dead battery still has enough energy to start a
>> >> >> car.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> An ohmic load, like an old incandescent lamp, can totally discharge a
>> >> >> battery, but modern loads are electronic, nonlinear, so a modern car
>> >> >> doesn't fully discharge a battery any time soon.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Of course, the supercap charger specs are probably as bogus as most
>> >> >> such stuff, but they seem to work.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I have a lithium battery starter which I charge occasionally. I'm
>> >> >> optimistic it won't start my car on fire.
>> >> >
>> >> >I'm pretty sure SAE spec is everything, including the starter, works down to 8V. If the battery won't even turn the engine over,
>> >it's going to take forever to charge the supercapacitor.
>> >> Sounds like 10 minutes is typical.
>> >
>> >That Autowit thing on Amazon says the battery has to be no less than 12V to charge it. If the battery is less, you're supposed to go
>> >find a 12VDC somewhere.
>> >
>> >People wouldn't need this if they kept their cars charged with a 'battery maintainer.' They're just an unregulated 12V PV straight
>> >into the battery, nothing else. Once they've ruined their battery with excessive discharge, it will never fully charge right again.
>> >A maintainer prevents that. The maintainer has a lighter socket adapter which must be disconnected before you start the car.
>> I have discharged the gel battery of my Ford Mondeo Ghia several times
>> to approximately 5 volts. I charge with a current of mA till the battery recovers
>> to 10 Volt than increase slowly the current. The garage advises to
>> change the battery, but I can till start the motor with it.
>> It is from 2000, so if an interior light is left on, or the parking
>> lights, it is severely discharged.
>> It makes no sense to replace the battery, I make this mistake
>> at least once a year.
>> Conclusion the battery is not ruined, at least not totally.
>
>Most chargers won't charge a battery with that low of a terminal voltage, they assume it's a shorted cell.

I do not use a charger. I use a power supply with regulated voltage and a
current limiter. In the beginning I charge with 10 mA or such.
I only charge with a less than 1 Volt over the current battery voltage.

>>
>> Groetjes Albert
--
Don't praise the day before the evening. One swallow doesn't make spring.
You must not say "hey" before you have crossed the bridge. Don't sell the
hide of the bear until you shot it. Better one bird in the hand than ten in
the air. First gain is a cat spinning. - the Wise from Antrim -

On Tue, 2 Jan 2024 21:48:05 +0200, Tauno Voipio
<tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> wrote:

>On 2.1.2024 21.01, john larkin wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Careful with the bench power supplies: They do not like if there is a
>>> storage battery with some life in the output and the input goes off.
>>
>> That sounds like a very bad design, linear or switching.
>>
>>>
>>> In cold winters we had more than enough of bench power supplies to
>>> repair. It begins to be cold enough now (around -18 C or 0 F).
>
>
>That happened in the 1970's, when we had a couple of pretty cold
>winters, down to -30C. The power supplies were off-the-shelf lab
>power supplies common at that time, no switchers at all.

Still bad design. A power suppy could be powering something with big
input caps, when the AC power was switched off.

I do that, turn off the supply with a load connected.