https://www.fox32chicago.com/news/dead-teslas-oak-brook

It's probably not a good idea to buy a Tesla in a place that gets
below 0F.

Some day a Tesla will freeze up and kill some people, with legal
consequences.

John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com> Wrote in message:r
> https://www.fox32chicago.com/news/dead-teslas-oak-brookIt's probably not a good idea to buy a Tesla in a place that getsbelow 0F.Some day a Tesla will freeze up and kill some people, with legalconsequences.

Nimh are better at low temps, I wonder if the Prius has issues.

Cheers
--

----Android NewsGroup Reader----
https://piaohong.s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/usenet/index.html

On Tue, 16 Jan 2024 15:31:29 -0500 (EST), Martin Rid
<martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:

>John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com> Wrote in message:r
>> https://www.fox32chicago.com/news/dead-teslas-oak-brookIt's probably not a good idea to buy a Tesla in a place that getsbelow 0F.Some day a Tesla will freeze up and kill some people, with legalconsequences.
>
>Nimh are better at low temps, I wonder if the Prius has issues.
>
>Cheers

It has a gasoline engine!

I wonder how the battery precondition (preheat) thing works. How long
does it take? How much battery energy does it use?

It would be crazy if you have to precondition the battery before you
can charge it in super cold weather, but you don't have enough energy
available to precondition (or to run the heater while you're waiting,
or to drive two blocks to the charging station.)

On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 3:53:51 AM UTC+11, John Larkin wrote:
> https://www.fox32chicago.com/news/dead-teslas-oak-brook
>
> It's probably not a good idea to buy a Tesla in a place that gets
> below 0F.
>
> Some day a Tesla will freeze up and kill some people, with legal
> consequences.

If you read all the way through the article, which John Larkin seems to have neglected to do.

""Like any new technology, there’s a learning curve for people," said Mark Bilek of the Chicago Auto Trade Association.

Bilek said all EVs can have problems dealing with extreme cold, and drivers need to hit their preconditioning button before they charge their battery.

"It’s not plug and go. You have to precondition the battery, meaning that you have to get the battery up to the optimal temperature to accept a fast charge," said Bilek."

Tesla does seem to have anticipated the problem, but not every Tesla driver seems to have got the message.

Fools will always find a way to screw up.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

On 17/01/2024 11:44 am, John Larkin wrote:
> On Tue, 16 Jan 2024 15:31:29 -0500 (EST), Martin Rid
> <martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:
>
>> John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com> Wrote in message:r
>>> https://www.fox32chicago.com/news/dead-teslas-oak-brookIt's probably not a good idea to buy a Tesla in a place that getsbelow 0F.Some day a Tesla will freeze up and kill some people, with legalconsequences.
>>
>> Nimh are better at low temps, I wonder if the Prius has issues.
>>
>> Cheers
>
> It has a gasoline engine!
>
> I wonder how the battery precondition (preheat) thing works. How long
> does it take? How much battery energy does it use?
>
> It would be crazy if you have to precondition the battery before you
> can charge it in super cold weather, but you don't have enough energy
> available to precondition (or to run the heater while you're waiting,
> or to drive two blocks to the charging station.)

Not crazy,just inconvenient. The article talks about having to tow a
too-cold Tesla to a garage, which is also the sort of thing that can
happen to a gasoline-powered car if somebody forget about the antifreeze.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

On Tue, 16 Jan 2024 16:44:19 -0800, John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com>
wrote:

>On Tue, 16 Jan 2024 15:31:29 -0500 (EST), Martin Rid
><martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:
>
>>John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com> Wrote in message:r
>>> https://www.fox32chicago.com/news/dead-teslas-oak-brookIt's probably not a good idea to buy a Tesla in a place that getsbelow 0F.Some day a Tesla will freeze up and kill some people, with legalconsequences.
>>
>>Nimh are better at low temps, I wonder if the Prius has issues.
>>
>>Cheers
>
>It has a gasoline engine!
>
>I wonder how the battery precondition (preheat) thing works. How long
>does it take? How much battery energy does it use?
>
>It would be crazy if you have to precondition the battery before you
>can charge it in super cold weather, but you don't have enough energy
>available to precondition (or to run the heater while you're waiting,
>or to drive two blocks to the charging station.)

Most North American cars above the 48th parallel are equiped with
plug-in block heaters to maintain engine temperatures in cold weather.
This ensures that lubrication and cooling system components don't
prevent cranking and startup.

Battery blankets are also a real thing.

They're powered by dedicated 3pin line cords, plugged into 120vac
distribution. You'll see AC outlets in parking lots and garages,
located for that sole purpose (not fused for > 10A). The cord dangles
out of the grill, but may need an extension cord to reach an outlet.

Battery preconditioning for Tesla assumes it's at a charging station,
and so will use that power source to bring up the battery temperature
to a normal operating range. Have to assume low temperature operation
is included in the system's state machine.

RL

On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 09:36:51 -0500, legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> wrote:

>On Tue, 16 Jan 2024 16:44:19 -0800, John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 16 Jan 2024 15:31:29 -0500 (EST), Martin Rid
>><martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:
>>
>>>John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com> Wrote in message:r
>>>> https://www.fox32chicago.com/news/dead-teslas-oak-brookIt's probably not a good idea to buy a Tesla in a place that getsbelow 0F.Some day a Tesla will freeze up and kill some people, with legalconsequences.
>>>
>>>Nimh are better at low temps, I wonder if the Prius has issues.
>>>
>>>Cheers
>>
>>It has a gasoline engine!
>>
>>I wonder how the battery precondition (preheat) thing works. How long
>>does it take? How much battery energy does it use?
>>
>>It would be crazy if you have to precondition the battery before you
>>can charge it in super cold weather, but you don't have enough energy
>>available to precondition (or to run the heater while you're waiting,
>>or to drive two blocks to the charging station.)
>
>Most North American cars above the 48th parallel are equiped with
>plug-in block heaters to maintain engine temperatures in cold weather.
>This ensures that lubrication and cooling system components don't
>prevent cranking and startup.
>
>Battery blankets are also a real thing.
>
>They're powered by dedicated 3pin line cords, plugged into 120vac
>distribution. You'll see AC outlets in parking lots and garages,
>located for that sole purpose (not fused for > 10A). The cord dangles
>out of the grill, but may need an extension cord to reach an outlet.
>
>Battery preconditioning for Tesla assumes it's at a charging station,
>and so will use that power source to bring up the battery temperature
>to a normal operating range.

How long does that take?

>Have to assume low temperature operation
>is included in the system's state machine.
>
>RL

This sort of news will not be good for sales:

https://dnyuz.com/2024/01/17/electric-car-owners-confront-a-harsh-foe-cold-weather/

On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 09:05:29 -0800 (PST), Fred Bloggs
<bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, January 16, 2024 at 11:53:51?AM UTC-5, John Larkin wrote:
>> https://www.fox32chicago.com/news/dead-teslas-oak-brook
>>
>> It's probably not a good idea to buy a Tesla in a place that gets
>> below 0F.
>>
>> Some day a Tesla will freeze up and kill some people, with legal
>> consequences.
>
>That's a bunch of nonsense encouraged by the moronic press. Those big battery banks can be permanently damaged by excess temperature change rate with time. As you can imagine, they get quite warm with fast charging. The onboard BMS detects this and limits the charge current to keep the rate of temperature rise within safe limits. That's why the numbskulls, with frozen solid batteries, are backing up at the charging stations, there is in effect no fast charging taking place, greatly reducing throughput. The Tesla's have a battery preconditioning feature for just this situation. It must be activated, by pushing a button, at least 30 minutes before charging, the time it takes to drive to the charging station and wait in line for a spot ... People who have a garage with overnight trickle charge, or even just a somewhat heated garage, will not have this problem.

As long as it never leaves the cozy garage, it will be fine.

What kind of EV do you have?

On 1/16/2024 7:44 PM, John Larkin wrote:
> On Tue, 16 Jan 2024 15:31:29 -0500 (EST), Martin Rid
> <martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:
>
>> John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com> Wrote in message:r
>>> https://www.fox32chicago.com/news/dead-teslas-oak-brookIt's probably not a good idea to buy a Tesla in a place that getsbelow 0F.Some day a Tesla will freeze up and kill some people, with legalconsequences.
>>
>> Nimh are better at low temps, I wonder if the Prius has issues.
>>
>> Cheers
>
> It has a gasoline engine!

AFAIK they all have air-cooled packs, so even on the Prius Prime the
engine can't help bring the pack up to temp directly. But the power
electronics are liquid cooled I believe.

The Volt's three loops work pretty well to pre-condition when not
plugged in, below about 25 F the engine comes on and burns a couple
thimbles of gas to warm everything up over a few minutes. Some
percentage of that energy gets sent to the battery so you're wasting
about a thimble all told, and probably win on the energy balance vs
driving off with the internal resistance of a battery at ambient.

But I've done that too in cold weather and I think in 6 years the car
only actively bitched at me about it once, when it was about -15, and
acceleration was sluggish for about a minute.

Very trouble-free car overall, I'll probably run it another couple years
or to 100k and then let someone else have some fun with it, but I will
be sad to let it go. The Ioniq 6 is a very stylish EV, reminds me of
Saab designs. It is true that a lot of EVs are aggressively ugly cars.

> I wonder how the battery precondition (preheat) thing works. How long
> does it take? How much battery energy does it use?
>
> It would be crazy if you have to precondition the battery before you
> can charge it in super cold weather, but you don't have enough energy
> available to precondition (or to run the heater while you're waiting,
> or to drive two blocks to the charging station.)
>

A battery probably still has about 5-10% charge when it's displaying 0
miles range to the user. I suppose I could check mine the next time it's
flat but I've never been curious enough about it to bother..

I don't know any EV that displays actual SoC directly to the user
without digging into OBDII, it's a guess-o-meter based on a some kind of
average of past experience.

On 1/17/2024 7:36 AM, legg wrote:
> Most North American cars above the 48th parallel are equiped with
> plug-in block heaters to maintain engine temperatures in cold weather.
> This ensures that lubrication and cooling system components don't
> prevent cranking and startup.

Block heaters are inexpensive (to purchase) and simple to
install -- knock out a freeze plug and replace with heater.
I've always had them in some of the larger V8s that I've
driven when living "north" (e.g., Chicago).

A friend doing a stint in North Dakota claimed that you
always fed the parking meter -- because the SWITCHED outlet
made available to the parked car would turn off when the
meter expired.

[Larger commercial vehicles, I'm told, were run continuously
in the colder months -- fuel being cheaper than trying to start
overly thickened oil]

> Battery blankets are also a real thing.
>
> They're powered by dedicated 3pin line cords, plugged into 120vac
> distribution. You'll see AC outlets in parking lots and garages,
> located for that sole purpose (not fused for > 10A). The cord dangles
> out of the grill, but may need an extension cord to reach an outlet.

Parking meters for folks who have to park at the curb.
I would keep mine plugged in even when garaged!
(cold weather makes the engine load appear larger
and the battery capacity smaller... why not give the
car a break?)

> Battery preconditioning for Tesla assumes it's at a charging station,
> and so will use that power source to bring up the battery temperature
> to a normal operating range. Have to assume low temperature operation
> is included in the system's state machine.

Not unlike keeping your (starting) battery in the house...

I'll be curious to see how the heat affects battery life.
Here, starting batteries are rarely good for more than 3 years
(if you are wise, you replace yours *at* three years before
you find yourself stranded!)

None of the BEV owners I've known have kept their vehicles for more
than 2 years so no real data points to consult.

On 1/17/2024 12:15 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> On Wednesday, January 17, 2024 at 9:36:14 AM UTC-5, legg wrote:
>> On Tue, 16 Jan 2024 16:44:19 -0800, John Larkin <j...@997PotHill.com>
>> wrote:
>>> On Tue, 16 Jan 2024 15:31:29 -0500 (EST), Martin Rid
>>> <martin...@verison.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> John Larkin <j...@997PotHill.com> Wrote in message:r
>>>>> https://www.fox32chicago.com/news/dead-teslas-oak-brookIt's probably not a good idea to buy a Tesla in a place that getsbelow 0F.Some day a Tesla will freeze up and kill some people, with legalconsequences.
>>>>
>>>> Nimh are better at low temps, I wonder if the Prius has issues.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers
>>>
>>> It has a gasoline engine!
>>>
>>> I wonder how the battery precondition (preheat) thing works. How long
>>> does it take? How much battery energy does it use?
>>>
>>> It would be crazy if you have to precondition the battery before you
>>> can charge it in super cold weather, but you don't have enough energy
>>> available to precondition (or to run the heater while you're waiting,
>>> or to drive two blocks to the charging station.)
>> Most North American cars above the 48th parallel are equiped with
>> plug-in block heaters to maintain engine temperatures in cold weather.
>> This ensures that lubrication and cooling system components don't
>> prevent cranking and startup.
>>
>> Battery blankets are also a real thing.
>>
>> They're powered by dedicated 3pin line cords, plugged into 120vac
>> distribution. You'll see AC outlets in parking lots and garages,
>> located for that sole purpose (not fused for > 10A). The cord dangles
>> out of the grill, but may need an extension cord to reach an outlet.
>>
>> Battery preconditioning for Tesla assumes it's at a charging station,
>> and so will use that power source to bring up the battery temperature
>> to a normal operating range. Have to assume low temperature operation
>> is included in the system's state machine.
>
> It can precondition with the stored battery energy, doesn't need to be at the charging station. The fools are not supposed to drain the batteries below 20% C, or something, anyway, just something else for the airheads to ignore.
>
> Those cold weather ICE heaters are for the crankcase oil, they're just dumb engine block heaters. The batteries will just have to tough it out on their own.
>
> Speaking of which, a recent study has determined that excessive temperature in heated car seats, which some people prefer apparently, causes a decline in male fertility.

In cars with small packs like mine the preference is to use the seat
heater, as the resistive heater really drinks the battery, much more
than AC.

Something about heating your body core bla bla bla. My experience is
that in very cold weather the heated seats just provide a hot butt and
the rest of me is still plenty cold.

John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com> Wrote in message:r
> On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 09:36:51 -0500, legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> wrote:>On Tue, 16 Jan 2024 16:44:19 -0800, John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com>>wrote:>>>On Tue, 16 Jan 2024 15:31:29 -0500 (EST), Martin Rid>><martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:>>>>>John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com> Wrote in message:r>>>> https://www.fox32chicago.com/news/dead-teslas-oak-brookIt's probably not a good idea to buy a Tesla in a place that getsbelow 0F.Some day a Tesla will freeze up and kill some people, with legalconsequences.>>>>>>Nimh are better at low temps, I wonder if the Prius has issues.>>>>>>Cheers>>>>It has a gasoline engine!>>>>I wonder how the battery precondition (preheat) thing works. How long>>does it take? How much battery energy does it use?>>>>It would be crazy if you have to precondition the battery before you>>can charge it in super cold weather, but you don't have enough energy>>available to precondition (or to run the heater while you're waiting,>>or to drive two blocks to the charging station.)>>Most North American cars above the 48th parallel are equiped with >plug-in block heaters to maintain engine temperatures in cold weather.>This ensures that lubrication and cooling system compone
nts don't >prevent cranking and startup.>>Battery blankets are also a real thing.>>They're powered by dedicated 3pin line cords, plugged into 120vac>distribution. You'll see AC outlets in parking lots and garages, >located for that sole purpose (not fused for > 10A). The cord dangles >out of the grill, but may need an extension cord to reach an outlet.>>Battery preconditioning for Tesla assumes it's at a charging station, >and so will use that power source to bring up the battery temperature >to a normal operating range.How long does that take?>Have to assume low temperature operation >is included in the system's state machine.>>RLThis sort of news will not be good for sales:https://dnyuz.com/2024/01/17/electric-car-owners-confront-a-harsh-foe-cold-weather/

As I understand, Tesla uses a heat pump for a heater. How good
is that I dont know. But they lose efficiency at low
temps.
Cheers
--

----Android NewsGroup Reader----
https://piaohong.s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/usenet/index.html

On Thursday, January 18, 2024 at 9:03:55 AM UTC+11, Martin Rid wrote:
> John Larkin <j...@997PotHill.com> Wrote in message:r
> > On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 09:36:51 -0500, legg <le...@nospam.magma.ca> wrote:>On Tue, 16 Jan 2024 16:44:19 -0800, John Larkin <j...@997PotHill.com>>wrote:>>>On Tue, 16 Jan 2024 15:31:29 -0500 (EST), Martin Rid>><martin...@verison.net> wrote:>>>>>John Larkin <j...@997PotHill.com> Wrote in message:r>>>> https://www.fox32chicago.com/news/dead-teslas-oak-brookIt's probably not a good idea to buy a Tesla in a place that getsbelow 0F.Some day a Tesla will freeze up and kill some people, with legalconsequences.>>>>>>Nimh are better at low temps, I wonder if the Prius has issues.>>>>>>Cheers>>>>It has a gasoline engine!>>>>I wonder how the battery precondition (preheat) thing works. How long>>does it take? How much battery energy does it use?>>>>It would be crazy if you have to precondition the battery before you>>can charge it in super cold weather, but you don't have enough energy>>available to precondition (or to run the heater while you're waiting,>>or to drive two blocks to the charging station.)>>Most North American cars above the 48th parallel are equiped with >plug-in block heaters to maintain engine temperatures in cold weather.>This ensures that lubrication and cooling system components don't >prevent cranking and startup.>>Battery blankets are also a real thing.>>They're powered by dedicated 3pin line cords, plugged into 120vac>distribution. You'll see AC outlets in parking lots and garages, >located for that sole purpose (not fused for > 10A). The cord dangles >out of the grill, but may need an extension cord to reach an outlet.>>Battery preconditioning for Tesla assumes it's at a charging station, >and so will use that power source to bring up the battery temperature >to a normal operating range.How long does that take?>Have to assume low temperature operation >is included in the system's state machine.>>RLThis sort of news will not be good for sales:https://dnyuz.com/2024/01/17/electric-car-owners-confront-a-harsh-foe-cold-weather/
>
> As I understand, Tesla uses a heat pump for a heater. How good
> is that I dont know. But they lose efficiency at low
> temps.

They don't lose efficiency. They lose thermodynamic advantage. The point about a heat pump is that it delivers more heat energy than the electrical energy it consumes when operating across a small temperature difference. As the input to output temperature difference gets larger, the advantage gets less.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 10:55:02 -0700, Don Y
<blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

>On 1/17/2024 7:36 AM, legg wrote:
>> Most North American cars above the 48th parallel are equiped with
>> plug-in block heaters to maintain engine temperatures in cold weather.
>> This ensures that lubrication and cooling system components don't
>> prevent cranking and startup.
>
>Block heaters are inexpensive (to purchase) and simple to
>install -- knock out a freeze plug and replace with heater.
>I've always had them in some of the larger V8s that I've
>driven when living "north" (e.g., Chicago).
>
>A friend doing a stint in North Dakota claimed that you
>always fed the parking meter -- because the SWITCHED outlet
>made available to the parked car would turn off when the
>meter expired.

Metered parking is too short-term, but outdoor day lots will
provide sockets or lose clients.

>
>[Larger commercial vehicles, I'm told, were run continuously
>in the colder months -- fuel being cheaper than trying to start
>overly thickened oil]

That's a diesel thing, mostly, and you're talking about
reefer traction vehicles in unserviced layby areas. It's not
cost, so much as warm-up times and cab use. Some can be
time and temperature controlled for intermittent running.
With commuter vehicles, I guess diesel owners just do
what experience (or the manual) tells them they can get
away with.

>
>> Battery blankets are also a real thing.
>>
>> They're powered by dedicated 3pin line cords, plugged into 120vac
>> distribution. You'll see AC outlets in parking lots and garages,
>> located for that sole purpose (not fused for > 10A). The cord dangles
>> out of the grill, but may need an extension cord to reach an outlet.
>
>Parking meters for folks who have to park at the curb.
>I would keep mine plugged in even when garaged!

Home garages or car ports usually have an easily accessed socketry,
or extension cords. Owners with fixed schedules will put this
on a timer to save $.

RV travellers in the summer are gratified to find available
power points - and disapointed to find they're blowing lower
capacity breakers when trying to use these.

>(cold weather makes the engine load appear larger
>and the battery capacity smaller... why not give the
>car a break?)
>
>> Battery preconditioning for Tesla assumes it's at a charging station,
>> and so will use that power source to bring up the battery temperature
>> to a normal operating range. Have to assume low temperature operation
>> is included in the system's state machine.
>
>Not unlike keeping your (starting) battery in the house...
>
>I'll be curious to see how the heat affects battery life.
>Here, starting batteries are rarely good for more than 3 years
>(if you are wise, you replace yours *at* three years before
>you find yourself stranded!)
>
>None of the BEV owners I've known have kept their vehicles for more
>than 2 years so no real data points to consult.

It's a seller's market ($$), as far as EV's go, but you can navigate
the Trans-Canada highway with one, now, if you have to.

Don't know why I'm involved in this discussion. I don't drive.
Everyone else in the family does. Their work either builds or
services vehicles. In my home town, if it doesn't have wheels,
they're not interested. Have never been able to earn a living
there. (Gone broke twice, trying.)

RL

On Thu, 18 Jan 2024 09:35:59 -0500, legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> wrote:

>On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 10:55:02 -0700, Don Y
><blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
>
>>On 1/17/2024 7:36 AM, legg wrote:
>>> Most North American cars above the 48th parallel are equiped with
>>> plug-in block heaters to maintain engine temperatures in cold weather.
>>> This ensures that lubrication and cooling system components don't
>>> prevent cranking and startup.
>>
>>Block heaters are inexpensive (to purchase) and simple to
>>install -- knock out a freeze plug and replace with heater.
>>I've always had them in some of the larger V8s that I've
>>driven when living "north" (e.g., Chicago).
>>
>>A friend doing a stint in North Dakota claimed that you
>>always fed the parking meter -- because the SWITCHED outlet
>>made available to the parked car would turn off when the
>>meter expired.
>
>Metered parking is too short-term, but outdoor day lots will
>provide sockets or lose clients.

What's an "outdoor day lot"? We don't have them here.

On 1/18/2024 7:35 AM, legg wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 10:55:02 -0700, Don Y
> <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 1/17/2024 7:36 AM, legg wrote:
>>> Most North American cars above the 48th parallel are equiped with
>>> plug-in block heaters to maintain engine temperatures in cold weather.
>>> This ensures that lubrication and cooling system components don't
>>> prevent cranking and startup.
>>
>> Block heaters are inexpensive (to purchase) and simple to
>> install -- knock out a freeze plug and replace with heater.
>> I've always had them in some of the larger V8s that I've
>> driven when living "north" (e.g., Chicago).
>>
>> A friend doing a stint in North Dakota claimed that you
>> always fed the parking meter -- because the SWITCHED outlet
>> made available to the parked car would turn off when the
>> meter expired.
>
> Metered parking is too short-term, but outdoor day lots will
> provide sockets or lose clients.

Lots, here, are unattended. Like a "drive-in" theater but with
meters instead of speakers.

>> [Larger commercial vehicles, I'm told, were run continuously
>> in the colder months -- fuel being cheaper than trying to start
>> overly thickened oil]
>
> That's a diesel thing, mostly, and you're talking about
> reefer traction vehicles in unserviced layby areas. It's not
> cost, so much as warm-up times and cab use. Some can be
> time and temperature controlled for intermittent running.

Dunno. IIRC, he worked with industrial/construction
equipment, mostly. (something about power plants is hiding
in my memories of him) But, it's been 30+ years since I
thought about block heaters (or snow, for that matter!)

> With commuter vehicles, I guess diesel owners just do
> what experience (or the manual) tells them they can get
> away with.
>
>>> Battery blankets are also a real thing.
>>>
>>> They're powered by dedicated 3pin line cords, plugged into 120vac
>>> distribution. You'll see AC outlets in parking lots and garages,
>>> located for that sole purpose (not fused for > 10A). The cord dangles
>>> out of the grill, but may need an extension cord to reach an outlet.
>>
>> Parking meters for folks who have to park at the curb.
>> I would keep mine plugged in even when garaged!
>
> Home garages or car ports usually have an easily accessed socketry,
> or extension cords. Owners with fixed schedules will put this
> on a timer to save $.

Most (older) garages, here, will have a single, uncommitted GFCI outlet.
Friends with plug-in hybrids have often had to hire an electrician
to make one available for their vehicle (as that single outlet
likely already is spoken for!)

> RV travellers in the summer are gratified to find available
> power points - and disapointed to find they're blowing lower
> capacity breakers when trying to use these.

Ha! Too funny! What does a legitimate user do if he encounters
a tripped breaker? Is there any indication on the outlet that
it *has* power available? Or, do you drive up and then realize
why THIS parking space was "empty"?!

>> (cold weather makes the engine load appear larger
>> and the battery capacity smaller... why not give the
>> car a break?)
>>
>>> Battery preconditioning for Tesla assumes it's at a charging station,
>>> and so will use that power source to bring up the battery temperature
>>> to a normal operating range. Have to assume low temperature operation
>>> is included in the system's state machine.
>>
>> Not unlike keeping your (starting) battery in the house...
>>
>> I'll be curious to see how the heat affects battery life.
>> Here, starting batteries are rarely good for more than 3 years
>> (if you are wise, you replace yours *at* three years before
>> you find yourself stranded!)
>>
>> None of the BEV owners I've known have kept their vehicles for more
>> than 2 years so no real data points to consult.
>
> It's a seller's market ($$), as far as EV's go, but you can navigate
> the Trans-Canada highway with one, now, if you have to.

In order to be a seller, you will also end up as a *buyer*.

> Don't know why I'm involved in this discussion. I don't drive.

I haven't "commuted" in more than 30 years. I used to put 1500
miles/year on my vehicle going to/from my volunteer activities.
But, realized maintaining a car JUST so I could give away my
time was silly! Now, I do those things from the comfort and
convenience of my own home.

But, we (jointly) still manage to drive about 100 miles/wk.
Not hard when it's a mile to the nearest "anything" and
closer to 10 miles for a shopping trip.

[Public transportation, here, is laughable and who would
want to *hire* someone to drive them to the grocery store?]

> Everyone else in the family does. Their work either builds or
> services vehicles. In my home town, if it doesn't have wheels,
> they're not interested. Have never been able to earn a living
> there. (Gone broke twice, trying.)

I've not lived "home" since before college. I could probably
economically live their (as most of my work has been remote) but
the idea of being where I grew up seems so... "limiting".

It's always amusing to see how *small* things were, in
hindsight! :-/

On Tue, 16 Jan 2024 08:52:30 -0800, John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com>
wrote:

>https://www.fox32chicago.com/news/dead-teslas-oak-brook
>
>It's probably not a good idea to buy a Tesla in a place that gets
>below 0F.
>
>Some day a Tesla will freeze up and kill some people, with legal
>consequences.

This is interesting:

https://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/tesla-drivers-have-highest-accident-rate-study-says

Over 2.5x the accident rate of some other cars.

Is that caused by the car, the drivers, both? Probably drivers.

On 1/18/24 21:43, john larkin wrote:
> On Tue, 16 Jan 2024 08:52:30 -0800, John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com>
> wrote:
>
>> https://www.fox32chicago.com/news/dead-teslas-oak-brook
>>
>> It's probably not a good idea to buy a Tesla in a place that gets
>> below 0F.
>>
>> Some day a Tesla will freeze up and kill some people, with legal
>> consequences.
>
> This is interesting:
>
> https://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/tesla-drivers-have-highest-accident-rate-study-says
>
> Over 2.5x the accident rate of some other cars.
>
> Is that caused by the car, the drivers, both? Probably drivers.

I wonder how much of that is due to the user interface. Modern
cars have far too many gadgets. They pretend to "assist" driving,
but in reality merely divert attention if they do not squarely
interfere with it.

Lately, my car has been warning me of "Limited visibility". What
were they thinking? That I'm watching TV or something? Sheesh!

Jeroen Belleman

On Fri, 19 Jan 2024 00:09:58 +0100, Jeroen Belleman
<jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

>On 1/18/24 21:43, john larkin wrote:
>> On Tue, 16 Jan 2024 08:52:30 -0800, John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> https://www.fox32chicago.com/news/dead-teslas-oak-brook
>>>
>>> It's probably not a good idea to buy a Tesla in a place that gets
>>> below 0F.
>>>
>>> Some day a Tesla will freeze up and kill some people, with legal
>>> consequences.
>>
>> This is interesting:
>>
>> https://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/tesla-drivers-have-highest-accident-rate-study-says
>>
>> Over 2.5x the accident rate of some other cars.
>>
>> Is that caused by the car, the drivers, both? Probably drivers.
>
>I wonder how much of that is due to the user interface. Modern
>cars have far too many gadgets. They pretend to "assist" driving,
>but in reality merely divert attention if they do not squarely
>interfere with it.
>
>Lately, my car has been warning me of "Limited visibility". What
>were they thinking? That I'm watching TV or something? Sheesh!
>
>Jeroen Belleman

I'm thinking that two kinds of people buy Teslas. Some love the insane
acceleration and use it. Some are greenies who are fundamentally inept
with the physics of driving. Both are dangerous.

On Friday, January 19, 2024 at 7:43:23 AM UTC+11, john larkin wrote:
> On Tue, 16 Jan 2024 08:52:30 -0800, John Larkin <j...@997PotHill.com>
> wrote:
>
> >https://www.fox32chicago.com/news/dead-teslas-oak-brook
> >
> >It's probably not a good idea to buy a Tesla in a place that gets
> >below 0F.
> >
> >Some day a Tesla will freeze up and kill some people, with legal
> >consequences.
> This is interesting:
>
> https://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/tesla-drivers-have-highest-accident-rate-study-says
>
> Over 2.5x the accident rate of some other cars.
>
> Is that caused by the car, the drivers, both? Probably drivers.

https://www.lendingtree.com/insurance/brand-incidents-study/

is the study that that Fox News cited. Tesla's are sold as high-performance cars - as are Rams - so it is probably the drivers.

Interestingly BMW drivers go in for driving while drunk at three times the rate of Tesla drivers (who had the lowest rate) , and at almost twice the rate of Ram drivers (who were the next worst). Audi drivers were about 20% worse than Tesla drivers.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

On Friday, January 19, 2024 at 10:52:58 AM UTC+11, john larkin wrote:
> On Fri, 19 Jan 2024 00:09:58 +0100, Jeroen Belleman
> <jer...@nospam.please> wrote:
>
> >On 1/18/24 21:43, john larkin wrote:
> >> On Tue, 16 Jan 2024 08:52:30 -0800, John Larkin <j...@997PotHill.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> https://www.fox32chicago.com/news/dead-teslas-oak-brook
> >>>
> >>> It's probably not a good idea to buy a Tesla in a place that gets
> >>> below 0F.
> >>>
> >>> Some day a Tesla will freeze up and kill some people, with legal
> >>> consequences.
> >>
> >> This is interesting:
> >>
> >> https://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/tesla-drivers-have-highest-accident-rate-study-says
> >>
> >> Over 2.5x the accident rate of some other cars.
> >>
> >> Is that caused by the car, the drivers, both? Probably drivers.
> >
> >I wonder how much of that is due to the user interface. Modern
> >cars have far too many gadgets. They pretend to "assist" driving,
> >but in reality merely divert attention if they do not squarely
> >interfere with it.
> >
> >Lately, my car has been warning me of "Limited visibility". What
> >were they thinking? That I'm watching TV or something? Sheesh!
>
> I'm thinking that two kinds of people buy Teslas. Some love the insane
> acceleration and use it. Some are greenies who are fundamentally inept
> with the physics of driving. Both are dangerous.

Why would greenies be inept with the physics of driving? They paid enough attention to their science classes to learn that anthroppogneic global warming is a real problem, which John Larkin never did.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

On 1/18/2024 4:09 PM, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
> I wonder how much of that is due to the user interface. Modern
> cars have far too many gadgets. They pretend to "assist" driving,
> but in reality merely divert attention if they do not squarely
> interfere with it.

Most of the problem lies in the UI -- but a good portion also
is a result of bad functional decisions.

Driving a car used to be largely intuitive; turn signals,
select-a-matic radio, HVAC controls, seat/mirror positioning,
etc. All you had to do was familiarize yourself with the locations
of the controls and you could operate them without taking your eyes
off the road.

Want heat? Move this lever to HERE. ACbrrr? Move it to THERE.
Want the air directed out the floor vents? Slide to THIS
position. Out the vents in the dash? Then this OTHER position
is appropriate.

Third radio preset is the third button from the left -- one, two THREE!
Turn knob for volume, outer ring for "tone". Other outer ring was
balance with inner fine-tuning for radio.

Too many engineers are designing UIs instead of application specialists.
Imagine a vehicle with nothing but a touchscreen: "You can put any
control you want on the screen! <big, self-satisfied smile>"
"Yeah, and you'll always have the driver looking at *it* instead of the
road!"

SWMBO's vehicle has separate temperature controls for driver and passenger
(likewise for rear seat occupants). And, a simple mechanism to SYNC
them together (to the driver's control). "Do I push SYNC a second time
to UNsync them? No, that didn't work. What else can I *try*?" (note
the driver's attention is now on solving the HVAC control problem
instead of piloting the vehicle)

Pushbutton (soft toggle) control to *enable* the ACrrr. But, no way to
tell if it is currently enabled, or not! "Push the button and see if
the display indicates OFF or ON; then push it, again, if not what you
wanted."

Car remembers *certain* driver-specific settings. Like the fact that
I want "USB" to be the first audio choice (from a dozen or so) while
SWMBO wants "HARD DISK". So, I can find the selection I want knowing the
list is ordered as I left it.

But, the actual selection that I will encounter when I enter the
vehicle will depend on how the previous driver left it! "What the
hell radio station is THIS? It's not even in my list of favorites
(so how did 'I' pick it?)."

I.e., if you are going to remember some things as driver-specific
(seat positions, mirror positions, radio presets, order of audio
input source choices, etc.) then why would you NOT remember ALL
of them? Why leave the drive puzzled wondering why something
isn't as he expected it to be?

> Lately, my car has been warning me of "Limited visibility". What
> were they thinking? That I'm watching TV or something? Sheesh!

Or, annunciators with no intuitive interpretations:
"What the hell does THAT sound signify? I've never heard it, before..."

There are "indicators" in SWMBOs vehicle that apparently reflect SOMETHING;
but, I'll be damned if I can find a correlation between them and any other
observable state in the vehicle!

So much information that it's effectively NO information!

On 1/19/24 08:56, Don Y wrote:
> On 1/18/2024 4:09 PM, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
>> I wonder how much of that is due to the user interface. Modern
>> cars have far too many gadgets. They pretend to "assist" driving,
>> but in reality merely divert attention if they do not squarely
>> interfere with it.
>
> Most of the problem lies in the UI -- but a good portion also
> is a result of bad functional decisions.
>
> Driving a car used to be largely intuitive; turn signals,
> select-a-matic radio, HVAC controls, seat/mirror positioning,
> etc.  All you had to do was familiarize yourself with the locations
> of the controls and you could operate them without taking your eyes
> off the road.
>
> Want heat?  Move this lever to HERE.  ACbrrr?  Move it to THERE.
> Want the air directed out the floor vents?  Slide to THIS
> position.  Out the vents in the dash?  Then this OTHER position
> is appropriate.
>
> Third radio preset is the third button from the left -- one, two THREE!
> Turn knob for volume, outer ring for "tone".  Other outer ring was
> balance with inner fine-tuning for radio.
>
> Too many engineers are designing UIs instead of application specialists.
> Imagine a vehicle with nothing but a touchscreen:  "You can put any
> control you want on the screen!  <big, self-satisfied smile>"
> "Yeah, and you'll always have the driver looking at *it* instead of the
> road!"
>
> SWMBO's vehicle has separate temperature controls for driver and passenger
> (likewise for rear seat occupants).  And, a simple mechanism to SYNC
> them together (to the driver's control).  "Do I push SYNC a second time
> to UNsync them?  No, that didn't work.  What else can I *try*?"  (note
> the driver's attention is now on solving the HVAC control problem
> instead of piloting the vehicle)
>
> Pushbutton (soft toggle) control to *enable* the ACrrr.  But, no way to
> tell if it is currently enabled, or not!  "Push the button and see if
> the display indicates OFF or ON; then push it, again, if not what you
> wanted."
>
> Car remembers *certain* driver-specific settings.  Like the fact that
> I want "USB" to be the first audio choice (from a dozen or so) while
> SWMBO wants "HARD DISK".  So, I can find the selection I want knowing the
> list is ordered as I left it.
>
> But, the actual selection that I will encounter when I enter the
> vehicle will depend on how the previous driver left it!  "What the
> hell radio station is THIS?  It's not even in my list of favorites
> (so how did 'I' pick it?)."
>
> I.e., if you are going to remember some things as driver-specific
> (seat positions, mirror positions, radio presets, order of audio
> input source choices, etc.) then why would you NOT remember ALL
> of them?  Why leave the drive puzzled wondering why something
> isn't as he expected it to be?
>
>> Lately, my car has been warning me of "Limited visibility". What
>> were they thinking? That I'm watching TV or something? Sheesh!
>
> Or, annunciators with no intuitive interpretations:
> "What the hell does THAT sound signify?  I've never heard it, before..."
>
> There are "indicators" in SWMBOs vehicle that apparently reflect SOMETHING;
> but, I'll be damned if I can find a correlation between them and any other
> observable state in the vehicle!
>
> So much information that it's effectively NO information!
>

And its automatic gearbox! A piece of shit! You have to move the
lever backwards to drive forwards, or forwards to reverse, if
it obeys at all. Under certain circumstances, it will just ignore
my input, I haven't yet figured out all of those. The lever always
returns to the same position, so there is no no way to tell by feel
what state it's in. You have to *look*.

It has far too many modes. Efficiency, comfort, sport, manual, ...
It will change mode for no apparent reason, or at least I haven't
yet figured out what those reasons might be. It has two paddles at
the wheel for manually shifting up or down which are ignored half
the time, but which act with a good second of delay when they do
work. I've since long abandoned trying to use those. They're too
unpredictable.

I have yet to discover how to prevent it from shifting up when I
want to use continuous engine brake in a steep descent, and no,
I'm not exceeding, or even approaching, maximum engine revs.

This does *not* help! In reality, a mechanical stick shift was so
much simpler! Grrr.

Jeroen Belleman

On 1/19/2024 3:13 AM, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
> And its automatic gearbox! A piece of shit! You have to move the
> lever backwards to drive forwards, or forwards to reverse, if
> it obeys at all. Under certain circumstances, it will just ignore
> my input, I haven't yet figured out all of those. The lever always
> returns to the same position, so there is no no way to tell by feel
> what state it's in. You have to *look*.

*You* are just there to provide "suggestions". Advice that *it*
is free to ignore.

This attitude has pervaded much design. Why do I have to put
my name on line one and address on line two -- if I just want to
see what the tax liability of a hypothetical person with income
X is likely to be?

Some idiot decides how you *should* use something. Then, goes
out of his way to force you to adopt his (faulty) logic.

> It has far too many modes. Efficiency, comfort, sport, manual, ...
> It will change mode for no apparent reason, or at least I haven't
> yet figured out what those reasons might be. It has two paddles at
> the wheel for manually shifting up or down which are ignored half
> the time, but which act with a good second of delay when they do
> work. I've since long abandoned trying to use those. They're too
> unpredictable.

Yup. "No, you are going too fast to downshift to 5th. I'm going
to keep you here, in 6th -- for at least the foreseeable future."

"But, I'm headed down a 3 mile long grade! I *really* don't want to
smoke my brakes trying to keep the car from continuously accelerating!"

> I have yet to discover how to prevent it from shifting up when I
> want to use continuous engine brake in a steep descent, and no,
> I'm not exceeding, or even approaching, maximum engine revs.

Exactly. I think we can lock SWMBO's vehicle into a choice of 1st and 2nd
gears. But, I've not yet tested that. (and, 1st or second would be way too
much reduction given the speed limit is 55MPH!)

> This does *not* help! In reality, a mechanical stick shift was so
> much simpler! Grrr.

Again, *it* decides how you should use it. You can offer suggestions
but it is free to ignore those.

When I leave the cabin -- with the engine running -- the car throws a
hissy fit... beeping urgently (as if I don't KNOW that I am no longer
in the car??)

Or, leaving the vehicle with the keyfob still inside AND A PASSENGER
PRESENT (remember, *it* can sense the position of a body on the seat!)!
"Did you think I was going to lock myself out? You won't LET me lock
the doors UNLESS I have the fob in my possession, so why the drama??"

The rear hatch (SUV) has a powered opener/closer. But, can only exist
in the OPEN or CLOSED state. What if I want to drive with a 10' piece
of lumber hanging out the back? Isn't this one of the advantages
of an SUV ("station wagon" is how they are classified) over a
sedan or coupe?

There's not even a place where you can *tie* the hatch partially closed!
(e.g., with something padded to keep it in that partially open
state). I had to fabricate a bit of chain and "trick" the hatch
into thinking it is closed (on the D-ring at one end of my chain)
so I could secure the other end of the chain to the intended latch.

By contrast, a forklift is relatively intuitive. Granted, you have to
learn which of the controls raises/lowers the forks, tips them forward/back,
shifts them left/right, etc. But, you are free to unbalance the load
(outside the triangle of stability) and topple the truck if you so desire!

Idiots need not apply (cars can't make that same assumption). You get to
make *one* mistake (hopefully wthout causing bodily injury) before you're
*out*!

In article <uod9vo$31qr5$1@dont-email.me>, blockedofcourse@foo.invalid
says...
>
> Most of the problem lies in the UI -- but a good portion also
> is a result of bad functional decisions.
>
> Driving a car used to be largely intuitive; turn signals,
> select-a-matic radio, HVAC controls, seat/mirror positioning,
> etc. All you had to do was familiarize yourself with the locations
> of the controls and you could operate them without taking your eyes
> off the road.
>
>
>

You have a good point. Too much stuff in the car to do. I have had to
pull off the road several times to find out what button or where on the
screen to push to get the car set where I wanted some things like the
defroster.

Like one fellow told me his new car had a book on just the 'radio' that
was larger than the book for the operation og the car.