On 1/19/2024 8:49 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
> In article <uod9vo$31qr5$1@dont-email.me>, blockedofcourse@foo.invalid
> says...
>>
>> Most of the problem lies in the UI -- but a good portion also
>> is a result of bad functional decisions.
>>
>> Driving a car used to be largely intuitive; turn signals,
>> select-a-matic radio, HVAC controls, seat/mirror positioning,
>> etc. All you had to do was familiarize yourself with the locations
>> of the controls and you could operate them without taking your eyes
>> off the road.
>
> You have a good point. Too much stuff in the car to do. I have had to
> pull off the road several times to find out what button or where on the
> screen to push to get the car set where I wanted some things like the
> defroster.

Yes. We have a dedicated button to select from among the N different
HVAC-routing choices (feet, feet&dash, defrost, rear defrost, etc.).
But, you have to look at a screen to see what the button press has
done; there is no static display of the current setting, just a
display of the NEW setting (which times out sometime after you stop
poking it).

As it rarely rains, here, the first rainfall of the season (e.g., Monsoon),
has us scurrying to figure out where the *front* wiper controls are
located (on a column-mounted stick) and which way to turn them for
intermittent vs. low, high, wash, etc. After the second or third rainfall,
you have sorted this out (even the location of the controls for
the rear window!)... and then it stops raining for another 6 months!

Or, "why is my seat hot?" Ah, she set her purse down on the
seat heater control -- which you forget exists except for the three
cold mornings each year when you go LOOKING for it!

Opening the sunroof is yet another "experiment": "Which way do
I press it to cause it to 'vent" vs. open fully?"

> Like one fellow told me his new car had a book on just the 'radio' that
> was larger than the book for the operation og the car.

Yup. And, that doesn't count the "configuration options" (which tend
to be largely static): "When driver unlocks their door, should all
the OTHER doors ALSO be unlocked? Should the doors automatically
LOCK when the car is put in motion? Should..."

There is too much thinking involved to be able to make use of all
those gizmos!

And, they are often inadequately implemented. E.g., I once asked
the navigation system to give me directions to "Pennys". I was
puzzled when it told me it was a 20 hour trip! WTF? *Ohio*???
Ah, apparently I meant "Penneys" and the navigation system was silly
enough not to wonder why I was looking for a destination so far from
home (and did nothing to draw my attention to that fact).

Did you know that you aren't supposed to specify "EAST Main Street"?
No such place! But, if you specify "Main Street", it will give
you the choice of selecting from "East Main Street" and "West Main
street" (assuming the house number exists in both places).

One can make excuses for the technology in that it is cost sensitive,
resource constrained, etc. But, if you can't make it work, then
why *offer* it?

And, why does it take 30 seconds before it will recognize a button
press? What idiot designed the software to require that much
initialization BEFORE it can start responding to events?

[I don't think car manufacturers have the skillsets internally
to do these things and farm much of it out to third parties...
who often don't know how to quiz the client on the pertinent
design goals/constraints. Look at the brain damage Kia inflicted
on its owners...]

On Thu, 18 Jan 2024 07:49:45 -0800, John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com>
wrote:

>On Thu, 18 Jan 2024 09:35:59 -0500, legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 10:55:02 -0700, Don Y
>><blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>>On 1/17/2024 7:36 AM, legg wrote:
>>>> Most North American cars above the 48th parallel are equiped with
>>>> plug-in block heaters to maintain engine temperatures in cold weather.
>>>> This ensures that lubrication and cooling system components don't
>>>> prevent cranking and startup.
>>>
>>>Block heaters are inexpensive (to purchase) and simple to
>>>install -- knock out a freeze plug and replace with heater.
>>>I've always had them in some of the larger V8s that I've
>>>driven when living "north" (e.g., Chicago).
>>>
>>>A friend doing a stint in North Dakota claimed that you
>>>always fed the parking meter -- because the SWITCHED outlet
>>>made available to the parked car would turn off when the
>>>meter expired.
>>
>>Metered parking is too short-term, but outdoor day lots will
>>provide sockets or lose clients.
>
>What's an "outdoor day lot"? We don't have them here.
>
A parking lot on undeveloped or demolished property, paved
for leased commercial parking in urban areas that serves mostly
day commuter traffic.

I bet there's actually more of this in warmer climes, than here,
where indoor parking is in more demand as the temperatures drop.

'Employee Parking' is less likely to be serviced, unless it's
for civil servants.;-]

RL

On Thu, 18 Jan 2024 11:40:58 -0700, Don Y
<blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

>On 1/18/2024 7:35 AM, legg wrote:
>> On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 10:55:02 -0700, Don Y
>> <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> On 1/17/2024 7:36 AM, legg wrote:
>>>> Most North American cars above the 48th parallel are equiped with
>>>> plug-in block heaters to maintain engine temperatures in cold weather.
>>>> This ensures that lubrication and cooling system components don't
>>>> prevent cranking and startup.
>>>
>>> Block heaters are inexpensive (to purchase) and simple to
>>> install -- knock out a freeze plug and replace with heater.
>>> I've always had them in some of the larger V8s that I've
>>> driven when living "north" (e.g., Chicago).
>>>
>>> A friend doing a stint in North Dakota claimed that you
>>> always fed the parking meter -- because the SWITCHED outlet
>>> made available to the parked car would turn off when the
>>> meter expired.
>>
>> Metered parking is too short-term, but outdoor day lots will
>> provide sockets or lose clients.
>
>Lots, here, are unattended. Like a "drive-in" theater but with
>meters instead of speakers.

It's usually automated or policed here.

RL

On Tuesday, January 16, 2024 at 10:53:51 AM UTC-6, John Larkin wrote:
> https://www.fox32chicago.com/news/dead-teslas-oak-brook
>
> It's probably not a good idea to buy a Tesla in a place that gets
> below 0F.
>
> Some day a Tesla will freeze up and kill some people, with legal
> consequences.

Frozen Tesla sounds like a drink one would order at a bar. <snicker>

On Sat, 20 Jan 2024 11:11:45 -0500, legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> wrote:

>On Thu, 18 Jan 2024 07:49:45 -0800, John Larkin <jl@997PotHill.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 18 Jan 2024 09:35:59 -0500, legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> wrote:
>>
>>>On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 10:55:02 -0700, Don Y
>>><blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On 1/17/2024 7:36 AM, legg wrote:
>>>>> Most North American cars above the 48th parallel are equiped with
>>>>> plug-in block heaters to maintain engine temperatures in cold weather.
>>>>> This ensures that lubrication and cooling system components don't
>>>>> prevent cranking and startup.
>>>>
>>>>Block heaters are inexpensive (to purchase) and simple to
>>>>install -- knock out a freeze plug and replace with heater.
>>>>I've always had them in some of the larger V8s that I've
>>>>driven when living "north" (e.g., Chicago).
>>>>
>>>>A friend doing a stint in North Dakota claimed that you
>>>>always fed the parking meter -- because the SWITCHED outlet
>>>>made available to the parked car would turn off when the
>>>>meter expired.
>>>
>>>Metered parking is too short-term, but outdoor day lots will
>>>provide sockets or lose clients.
>>
>>What's an "outdoor day lot"? We don't have them here.
>>
>A parking lot on undeveloped or demolished property, paved
>for leased commercial parking in urban areas that serves mostly
>day commuter traffic.
>
>I bet there's actually more of this in warmer climes, than here,
>where indoor parking is in more demand as the temperatures drop.
>
>'Employee Parking' is less likely to be serviced, unless it's
>for civil servants.;-]
>
>RL

There are some multi-story paid per-hour parking lots in San
Francisco. A few big stores (like Lowes or a shopping center, far from
downtown) have a parking lot with a posted time limit, to discourage
commuters.

I haven't seen any public parking with chargers.

One Shell station that I like has two hydrogen pumps and some massive
H2 storage tanks. I've never seen any of that used.

EV's have got a lot of bad press lately. Maybe the EV thing has
peaked.

On Sat, 20 Jan 2024 08:19:02 -0800 (PST), John Smiht
<utube.jocjo@xoxy.net> wrote:

>On Tuesday, January 16, 2024 at 10:53:51?AM UTC-6, John Larkin wrote:
>> https://www.fox32chicago.com/news/dead-teslas-oak-brook
>>
>> It's probably not a good idea to buy a Tesla in a place that gets
>> below 0F.
>>
>> Some day a Tesla will freeze up and kill some people, with legal
>> consequences.
>
>Frozen Tesla sounds like a drink one would order at a bar. <snicker>

Mocktail.

On 1/20/2024 9:13 AM, legg wrote:
>>> Metered parking is too short-term, but outdoor day lots will
>>> provide sockets or lose clients.
>>
>> Lots, here, are unattended. Like a "drive-in" theater but with
>> meters instead of speakers.
>
> It's usually automated or policed here.

"Municipal parking" -- the only sorts that would have meters -- are
unattended. "Parking enforcement" will likely drive by, a few times
during the day and "paint" the tires of the cars they find. A
car encountered with an already painted tire has exceeded the time
limit (without having been "moved"... which could be argued as
"I drove away and came BACK").

Private lots are impractical; sell the property to a developer
and you'll end up with a better return than trying to earn money
from cars (that YOU would have to "police" and enforce via towing).

The city tries to discourage people from driving downtown (which
is probably the only place where parking is an issue; shopping
centers usually have more than enough spaces). So, parking at a
curbside meter can set you back $1/hr -- but, there is a limit
as to how LONG you can sit at that meter; they don't want folks
driving into town for work and leaving their car at a meter
(because delivery vehicles and "shoppers" would want those meters
and, of course, business owners care more about those things than
the convenience of their employees!)

Indoor lots are usually attended -- a ticket is issued when
you drive in and an attendant determines your fee when you
exit, based on time of day and duration of stay.

The trend, nationally, (at least in cities) seems to be to
discourage traffic in the congested inner cities. Though
it would be hard to imagine NYC without a "yellow stream"
of cabs -- EVERYWHERE!

On 1/20/24 22:39, Don Y wrote:
[...]
> The trend, nationally, (at least in cities) seems to be to
> discourage traffic in the congested inner cities. [...]
>

Yes. And they do that by making lots of annoying obstacles,
causing cars to spend more time on the road, causing *worse*
congestion than before.

Jeroen Belleman

In article <uohh94$3rloc$1@dont-email.me>, jeroen@nospam.please says...
> /20/24 22:39, Don Y wrote:
> [...]
> > The trend, nationally, (at least in cities) seems to be to
> > discourage traffic in the congested inner cities. [...]
> >
>
> Yes. And they do that by making lots of annoying obstacles,
> causing cars to spend more time on the road, causing *worse*
> congestion than before.
>
>
>

It is just the opposite in my town. They have the stop lights set so
that you usually get stopped every 2nd light. That is 'so you can look
at the stores and window shop'. The main street is only about 15 blocks
long. It used to be 2 lanesw each way but they installed bicycle lanes
and it is only one lane and a turn lane for most of it now. The cross
road is about 8 blocks of stop lights and then a long streach to stop
lights about every 3 blocks for about 15 blocks in one direction to the
interstate.

On Sunday, January 21, 2024 at 3:37:09 AM UTC+11, John Larkin wrote:
> On Sat, 20 Jan 2024 11:11:45 -0500, legg <le...@nospam.magma.ca> wrote:
>
> >On Thu, 18 Jan 2024 07:49:45 -0800, John Larkin <j...@997PotHill.com>
> >wrote:
> >
> >>On Thu, 18 Jan 2024 09:35:59 -0500, legg <le...@nospam.magma.ca> wrote:
> >>
> >>>On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 10:55:02 -0700, Don Y
> >>><blocked...@foo.invalid> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>On 1/17/2024 7:36 AM, legg wrote:
> >>>>> Most North American cars above the 48th parallel are equiped with
> >>>>> plug-in block heaters to maintain engine temperatures in cold weather.
> >>>>> This ensures that lubrication and cooling system components don't
> >>>>> prevent cranking and startup.
> >>>>
> >>>>Block heaters are inexpensive (to purchase) and simple to
> >>>>install -- knock out a freeze plug and replace with heater.
> >>>>I've always had them in some of the larger V8s that I've
> >>>>driven when living "north" (e.g., Chicago).
> >>>>
> >>>>A friend doing a stint in North Dakota claimed that you
> >>>>always fed the parking meter -- because the SWITCHED outlet
> >>>>made available to the parked car would turn off when the
> >>>>meter expired.
> >>>
> >>>Metered parking is too short-term, but outdoor day lots will
> >>>provide sockets or lose clients.
> >>
> >>What's an "outdoor day lot"? We don't have them here.
> >>
> >A parking lot on undeveloped or demolished property, paved
> >for leased commercial parking in urban areas that serves mostly
> >day commuter traffic.
> >
> >I bet there's actually more of this in warmer climes, than here,
> >where indoor parking is in more demand as the temperatures drop.
> >
> >'Employee Parking' is less likely to be serviced, unless it's
> >for civil servants.;-]
> >
> >RL
> There are some multi-story paid per-hour parking lots in San
> Francisco. A few big stores (like Lowes or a shopping center, far from
> downtown) have a parking lot with a posted time limit, to discourage
> commuters.
>
> I haven't seen any public parking with chargers.
>
> One Shell station that I like has two hydrogen pumps and some massive
> H2 storage tanks. I've never seen any of that used.
>
> EV's have got a lot of bad press lately. Maybe the EV thing has
> peaked.

Maybe the gasoline car manufacturers have taken a leaf out of the fossil carbon extraction industry book, and started paying for lying propaganda in the hope of selling gas-powered cars for longer.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

On 1/20/2024 3:26 PM, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
> On 1/20/24 22:39, Don Y wrote:
> [...]
>> The trend, nationally, (at least in cities) seems to be to
>> discourage traffic in the congested inner cities. [...]
>
> Yes. And they do that by making lots of annoying obstacles,
> causing cars to spend more time on the road, causing *worse*
> congestion than before.

Their goal is to reduce congestion in targeted places.
"Downtown", here, has converted all streets to One Way
and you still are cramped for space (to accommodate
on-street parking -- as there is no place else that is close
to those stores/venues).

If they can coerce you into taking some other form of
transportation into the area, they feel they have made
progress. Hence the multimillion-dollar "streetcar"
project (that only serves to ferry students to and from
the local *bars* as it ONLY services the downtown area)

Downtown is old so "mixed use". You may encounter residential
neighborhoods within half a block of The Main Drag. Opting to
park *in* those neighborhoods will likely have an irate
homeowner calling to have your vehicle *towed* before you
get back to it.

Some municipal buildings (state, county, city) located
there have dedicated parking areas -- but, they are sized
for the traffic those buildings see. E.g., if you are
"called" for Jury Duty, you will park many blocks from the
courthouse (or, have someone drive you into town each day).
Renew your business license? Figure half a day to drive
into town, park "somewhere" (circle the small lot hoping
one of the 18 cars parked there will decide to depart),
walk to the office, wait in line, walk back to your car
and, finally, drive home.

[Of course, if you WORK for the city/county/state, you
probably have access to the parking GARAGE located, there!]

The town wasn't planned well -- if at all. So, there are
no real "hot spots" that can be targeted for mass transit.
If I wanted to get downtown on public transportation, it
would take me most of an hour -- vs. 25 minutes in my
own vehicle (and some amount of time to find a place to
STORE it while I am there!) But, I wouldn't bother going
there except for "official business" as most of the areas
one would want to chop or visit are distributed around
the town -- often plopped amidst residential areas.

On 1/20/2024 6:43 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
> It is just the opposite in my town. They have the stop lights set so
> that you usually get stopped every 2nd light. That is 'so you can look
> at the stores and window shop'. The main street is only about 15 blocks
> long. It used to be 2 lanesw each way but they installed bicycle lanes
> and it is only one lane and a turn lane for most of it now. The cross
> road is about 8 blocks of stop lights and then a long streach to stop
> lights about every 3 blocks for about 15 blocks in one direction to the
> interstate.

Our "downtown" is about 6 blocks long (and then another 6 blocks
offset by a block for traffic coming the other way).

But, there is nothing there to see -- besides municipal buildings,
a few little hole-in-the-wall shops and a theater.

There are other "areas" around town that have tended to draw
certain types of businesses/traffic. E.g., the warehouse district
is where you will find most art galleries (think: large indoor
spaces for low cost). Students have their little "center of
activity" around the university. There used to be a section that
was devoted to the "better" restaurants in town (until some
restaurateur wannabe bought them all up... and went bankrupt,
shuttering all of them, indefinitely).

But, as each of these areas sort of "evolved" into existence, none
were really designed with traffic in mind. E.g., if I want to visit
the university, I'm well advised to take a cab and not try to find
a place where The Public can park.

So, most folks adopt the suburbia mentality and visit specific
"shopping centers" for their purchases. And, make a note of where
various eateries or other "attractions-of-interest" lie.

But, thinking about it, this has been the case for most of the
places I've lived, regardless of size. E.g., there was no "in"
spot in Boston. Or Denver. Chicago. etc. Instead, there
were places that you frequented for specific reasons (e.g.,
if you want to visit museums, head to the shoreline in Chicago)
Even NYC was just a maze of locations splattered around the city...

On Sat, 20 Jan 2024 20:43:26 -0500, Ralph Mowery
<rmowery42@charter.net> wrote:

>In article <uohh94$3rloc$1@dont-email.me>, jeroen@nospam.please says...
>> /20/24 22:39, Don Y wrote:
>> [...]
>> > The trend, nationally, (at least in cities) seems to be to
>> > discourage traffic in the congested inner cities. [...]
>> >
>>
>> Yes. And they do that by making lots of annoying obstacles,
>> causing cars to spend more time on the road, causing *worse*
>> congestion than before.
>>
>>
>>
>
>It is just the opposite in my town. They have the stop lights set so
>that you usually get stopped every 2nd light. That is 'so you can look
>at the stores and window shop'. The main street is only about 15 blocks
>long. It used to be 2 lanesw each way but they installed bicycle lanes
>and it is only one lane and a turn lane for most of it now. The cross
>road is about 8 blocks of stop lights and then a long streach to stop
>lights about every 3 blocks for about 15 blocks in one direction to the
>interstate.
>

San Francisco is the opposite, very dense with lots of narrow
residential or neighborhood:commercial streets. See google Street
View.

One interesting thing, to me, is that we have a lot of 2 and 4-way
stop signs and the traffic lights cycle quickly. In more suburban
places, the intersections are too big to be safe for stop sign
control, and the lights are agonizingly slow, minutes per cycle even
when there's no cross traffic.

We have loop sensors at most lights, to speed things up too. Right on
red is, for the present at least, legal.

There's an interesting book:

https://www.amazon.com/Death-Life-Great-American-Cities/dp/067974195X/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1A3AY50EP43Q3&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.C9ESgj6IGvsNyA2w093RuQ4xhoGvTwDfFYg3MlxrKKJhW8ScgFVebFe4qbcdqDjpSBQw1GEJ-v9P40ROC1_UnNsjl-fII-Oi2-Fbbokeco0Phbujazz-t7lcrh95h4OLVa-mqXVxA3vu6smu2gN3MAe874CT49EyaNIq9qMFJVsrPHu0inZ2olaRvD_F2khfwFjIqm_mj0nksSLbib0HK3Fep0pFpMAN0NEckIqEXz4.2Om4YMWchPeRIbFWoly29NrwlUJFxJj3Xji-FXWGLJA&dib_tag=se&keywords=The+Death+and+Life+of+Great+American+Cities&qid=1705847601&sprefix=the+death+and+life+of+great+american+cities%2Caps%2C164&sr=8-1

She notes how street geometry affects a city's livability. Network
theory.