On 27/04/2021 04:13, Rod Speed wrote:
>
>
> "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:iepag2FufsU1@mid.individual.net...
>>
>>
>> "Alan Baker" <notonyourlife@no.no.no.no> wrote in message
>> news:s67oc5$bm4$1@dont-email.me...
>>> On 2021-04-26 5:52 p.m., Rod Speed wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Alan Baker" <notonyourlife@no.no.no.no> wrote in message
>>>> news:s670q0$jd3$1@dont-email.me...
>>>>> On 2021-04-26 11:13 a.m., Rod Speed wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Chris" <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:s6638e$f7c$1@dont-email.me...
>>>>>>> On 23/04/2021 21:19, Rod Speed wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Chris" <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:s5ufe7$75r$1@dont-email.me...
>>>>>>>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "Chris" <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>> news:s5rr60$bc6$1@dont-email.me...
>>>>>>>>>>> On 21/04/2021 05:29, Rod Speed wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> "Chris" <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>>> news:s5nbo5$bo5$1@dont-email.me...
>>>>>>>>>>>>> paul <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chris wrote on 20.04.2021 07:13
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My solution doesn't include destroying the Bill of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Rights, Chris.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I repeat. What *is* your solution?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> First off it's not a problem that can easily be solved.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In fact, in the scheme of things, it's not even a problem.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Realize that the numbers quoted are bullshit.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> People will die by suicides no matter what, for example.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Guns or no guns (look at Epstein - he used a sheet didn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> he?)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Rubbish. Suicide is not inevitable. Guns make it easier for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> people make sudden decisions.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Secondly, people will be murdered guns or no guns.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For you to claim otherwise is just not logical.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sure. The numbers a single person can kill are
>>>>>>>>>>>>> significantly fewer if they don't have guns. Compare the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Borough Market attack in London with the Las Vegas attack.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In London three attackers armed with knives killed 8 ppl in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> a highly populated area.  The LV attacker armed to the hilt
>>>>>>>>>>>>> with guns killed
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 60 on his own.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So the number of deaths that matter are those which are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> purely
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> accidental.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> All avoidable deaths matter.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Bullshit they do when its voluntary suicide.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Define "voluntary suicide"?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> When the individual chooses to kill themselves.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Those individuals often don't actually want die
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Far more often they do wasn’t to die.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ??
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Far more often they do want to die.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> and are simply in desperate situations which they want to get
>>>>>>>>> out of.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You don’t have to pretend to kill yourself to do that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Of course you don't, but these people aren't thinking straight.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You don’t get to decide who arent thinking straight.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That's why they need help.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Making them resort to less successful ways of killing themselves
>>>>>> like hanging themselves or poisoning themselves doesn’t help them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Without guns many/ attempts are unsuccessful.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Fuck all who really do want to kill themselves fail to do that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Evidence?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The success rate with guns.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> With guns the "success rate" is much higher.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So its stupid to make it harder to do an effective job by
>>>>>>>> banning guns.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Rather than help people in need
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You havent established that those who
>>>>>> choose to kill themselves are in need.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> you want to make it easier for them to destroy themselves
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If that what they have chosen to do, yep.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> and distress their family and friends.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What matter is what they have chosen to do.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How pleasant of you.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Whereas arseholes like you make it harder for those
>>>>>> who have decided to kill themselves to do that reliably
>>>>>> and effectively and more pleasantly.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/means-matter/case-fatality/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There's also very little chance of backing out from a gun suicide.
>>>>>>>>> It's quick and easy. Others take time and/or planning which gives
>>>>>>>>> individuals the chance to change their minds.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> More utterly mindless bullshit with hanging yourself, which is
>>>>>>>> what most do.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hanging is not easier than a gunshot to the head.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And yet few fail to hang themselves.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And shooting yourself is a hell of a lot better for others than
>>>>>> jumping in front of a train or jumping off a building etc.
>>>>
>>>>> Look... ...you're being an idiot.
>>>>
>>>> We'll see...
>>>>
>>>>> The dangers of unfettered access to firearms FAR outweigh the
>>>>> benefits.
>>>>
>>>> Irrelevant to what we are discussing, SUICIDE.
>>>
>>> Yes. And the fact that a firearm can turn a moment of despair into a
>>> death.
>>
>> Just as true of the other ways of killing yourself.
>>
>>>> In fact far more shoot themselves than shoot anyone else in the USA.
>>>
>>> Actually, it's not "far more"... ...just more.
>>>
>>> But I have this funny idea that no one should die from a moment of
>>> weakness or pain.
>>
>> You are irrelevant to what other choose to do.
>>
>> You don’t get to make it harder for
>> them to do what they choose to do.
>>
>>>>> And you are utterly wrong when you say:
>>>>
>>>>> "More utterly mindless bullshit with hanging yourself, which is
>>>>> what most do."
>>>>
>>>> We'll see...
>>>>
>>>>> In the US, all "suffocations" (not all of which are by hanging) are
>>>>> just a little more than half the number of suicides by firearm.
>>>>> Firearm suicides make up fully half of the total number of suicides
>>>>> in the United States (all figures for 2018 or as close as I can find)
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/statistics/suicide.shtml>
>>>>
>>>> So what right have arseholes like you to stop people using
>>>> that very effective and reliable way of ending their life when
>>>> they have decided that that is what they want to do ?
>>
>>> If they are actually intent on killing themselves, changing the
>>> methods available to them won't matter, will it?
>>
>> Corse it will when you arseholes force them to use less
>> reliable ways of killing themselves and methods that see
>> them affect other people very badly like the driver of the
>> train they jump in front of at the train station etc.
>>
>>>>> And with nearly 150 suicides per million people, the US suicide
>>>>> rate for 2018 compares to Canada's rate of 117.
>>>>
>>>> Presumably many of the extras are because many more
>>>> cant get affordable health care at the end of their life
>>>> and choose to kill themselves instead of suffering with
>>>> the medical problem that is about to kill them.
>>
>>> A lot of presumption,
>>
>> Nope.
>>
>>> whereas I present facts.
>>
>> Bullshit you do on that stupid claim about a moment
>> of despair and a moment of weakness or pain.
>>
>>>>> The US suicide rate per million for firearms is nearly 75 while
>>>>> Canada's rate is 15.
>>>>
>>>> Because its much harder to have a gun in Canada, stupid.
>>>
>>> Precisely.
>>>
>>> So fewer people die.
>>
>> You don’t know that either, you have no idea
>> how many kill themselves in other ways instead.
>
> In fact more people die now that did before the gun
> law changes in Australia. And its no coincidence that
> by far the highest male suicide rate is in the over 85s.

"Chris" <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:s68psu$e23$1@dont-email.me...
> On 27/04/2021 04:13, Rod Speed wrote:
>>
>>
>> "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:iepag2FufsU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>
>>>
>>> "Alan Baker" <notonyourlife@no.no.no.no> wrote in message
>>> news:s67oc5$bm4$1@dont-email.me...
>>>> On 2021-04-26 5:52 p.m., Rod Speed wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Alan Baker" <notonyourlife@no.no.no.no> wrote in message
>>>>> news:s670q0$jd3$1@dont-email.me...
>>>>>> On 2021-04-26 11:13 a.m., Rod Speed wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Chris" <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:s6638e$f7c$1@dont-email.me...
>>>>>>>> On 23/04/2021 21:19, Rod Speed wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Chris" <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>> news:s5ufe7$75r$1@dont-email.me...
>>>>>>>>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "Chris" <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>> news:s5rr60$bc6$1@dont-email.me...
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 21/04/2021 05:29, Rod Speed wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Chris" <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>>>> news:s5nbo5$bo5$1@dont-email.me...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> paul <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chris wrote on 20.04.2021 07:13
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My solution doesn't include destroying the Bill of Rights,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chris.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I repeat. What *is* your solution?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> First off it's not a problem that can easily be solved.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In fact, in the scheme of things, it's not even a problem.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Realize that the numbers quoted are bullshit.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> People will die by suicides no matter what, for example.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Guns or no guns (look at Epstein - he used a sheet didn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> he?)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Rubbish. Suicide is not inevitable. Guns make it easier for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people make sudden decisions.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Secondly, people will be murdered guns or no guns.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For you to claim otherwise is just not logical.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sure. The numbers a single person can kill are significantly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fewer if they don't have guns. Compare the Borough Market
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> attack in London with the Las Vegas attack. In London three
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> attackers armed with knives killed 8 ppl in a highly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> populated area. The LV attacker armed to the hilt with guns
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> killed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 60 on his own.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So the number of deaths that matter are those which are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> purely
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> accidental.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> All avoidable deaths matter.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bullshit they do when its voluntary suicide.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Define "voluntary suicide"?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> When the individual chooses to kill themselves.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Those individuals often don't actually want die
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Far more often they do wasn’t to die.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ??
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Far more often they do want to die.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> and are simply in desperate situations which they want to get out
>>>>>>>>>> of.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You don’t have to pretend to kill yourself to do that.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Of course you don't, but these people aren't thinking straight.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You don’t get to decide who arent thinking straight.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That's why they need help.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Making them resort to less successful ways of killing themselves
>>>>>>> like hanging themselves or poisoning themselves doesn’t help them.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Without guns many/ attempts are unsuccessful.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Fuck all who really do want to kill themselves fail to do that.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Evidence?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The success rate with guns.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> With guns the "success rate" is much higher.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So its stupid to make it harder to do an effective job by banning
>>>>>>>>> guns.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Rather than help people in need
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You havent established that those who
>>>>>>> choose to kill themselves are in need.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> you want to make it easier for them to destroy themselves
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If that what they have chosen to do, yep.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> and distress their family and friends.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What matter is what they have chosen to do.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> How pleasant of you.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Whereas arseholes like you make it harder for those
>>>>>>> who have decided to kill themselves to do that reliably
>>>>>>> and effectively and more pleasantly.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/means-matter/case-fatality/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There's also very little chance of backing out from a gun
>>>>>>>>>> suicide.
>>>>>>>>>> It's quick and easy. Others take time and/or planning which gives
>>>>>>>>>> individuals the chance to change their minds.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> More utterly mindless bullshit with hanging yourself, which is
>>>>>>>>> what most do.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hanging is not easier than a gunshot to the head.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And yet few fail to hang themselves.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And shooting yourself is a hell of a lot better for others than
>>>>>>> jumping in front of a train or jumping off a building etc.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Look... ...you're being an idiot.
>>>>>
>>>>> We'll see...
>>>>>
>>>>>> The dangers of unfettered access to firearms FAR outweigh the
>>>>>> benefits.
>>>>>
>>>>> Irrelevant to what we are discussing, SUICIDE.
>>>>
>>>> Yes. And the fact that a firearm can turn a moment of despair into a
>>>> death.
>>>
>>> Just as true of the other ways of killing yourself.
>>>
>>>>> In fact far more shoot themselves than shoot anyone else in the USA.
>>>>
>>>> Actually, it's not "far more"... ...just more.
>>>>
>>>> But I have this funny idea that no one should die from a moment of
>>>> weakness or pain.
>>>
>>> You are irrelevant to what other choose to do.
>>>
>>> You don’t get to make it harder for
>>> them to do what they choose to do.
>>>
>>>>>> And you are utterly wrong when you say:
>>>>>
>>>>>> "More utterly mindless bullshit with hanging yourself, which is what
>>>>>> most do."
>>>>>
>>>>> We'll see...
>>>>>
>>>>>> In the US, all "suffocations" (not all of which are by hanging) are
>>>>>> just a little more than half the number of suicides by firearm.
>>>>>> Firearm suicides make up fully half of the total number of suicides
>>>>>> in the United States (all figures for 2018 or as close as I can find)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/statistics/suicide.shtml>
>>>>>
>>>>> So what right have arseholes like you to stop people using
>>>>> that very effective and reliable way of ending their life when
>>>>> they have decided that that is what they want to do ?
>>>
>>>> If they are actually intent on killing themselves, changing the methods
>>>> available to them won't matter, will it?
>>>
>>> Corse it will when you arseholes force them to use less
>>> reliable ways of killing themselves and methods that see
>>> them affect other people very badly like the driver of the
>>> train they jump in front of at the train station etc.
>>>
>>>>>> And with nearly 150 suicides per million people, the US suicide rate
>>>>>> for 2018 compares to Canada's rate of 117.
>>>>>
>>>>> Presumably many of the extras are because many more
>>>>> cant get affordable health care at the end of their life
>>>>> and choose to kill themselves instead of suffering with
>>>>> the medical problem that is about to kill them.
>>>
>>>> A lot of presumption,
>>>
>>> Nope.
>>>
>>>> whereas I present facts.
>>>
>>> Bullshit you do on that stupid claim about a moment
>>> of despair and a moment of weakness or pain.
>>>
>>>>>> The US suicide rate per million for firearms is nearly 75 while
>>>>>> Canada's rate is 15.
>>>>>
>>>>> Because its much harder to have a gun in Canada, stupid.
>>>>
>>>> Precisely.
>>>>
>>>> So fewer people die.
>>>
>>> You don’t know that either, you have no idea
>>> how many kill themselves in other ways instead.
>>
>> In fact more people die now that did before the gun
>> law changes in Australia. And its no coincidence that
>> by far the highest male suicide rate is in the over 85s.

On 27/04/2021 19:20, Rod Speed wrote:
>
>
> "Chris" <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:s68psu$e23$1@dont-email.me...
>> On 27/04/2021 04:13, Rod Speed wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:iepag2FufsU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>> The US suicide rate per million for firearms is nearly 75 while
>>>>>>> Canada's rate is 15.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Because its much harder to have a gun in Canada, stupid.
>>>>>
>>>>> Precisely.
>>>>>
>>>>> So fewer people die.
>>>>
>>>> You don’t know that either, you have no idea
>>>> how many kill themselves in other ways instead.
>>>
>>> In fact more people die now that did before the gun
>>> law changes in Australia. And its no coincidence that
>>> by far the highest male suicide rate is in the over 85s.
>
>> Why is it no coincidence? What has age got to do with it?
>
> Clearly plenty of those have decided that they have
> no interest in needing someone to wipe their arse
> and feed them when they are no longer able to do that
> for themselves and would prefer to be dead instead.

Again why "no coincidence"? Nowhere else are old men the largest cohort
of suicide victims. Usually it's young men who are the most common
victims of suicide.

>> This is a question for Aussies as this age effect is not seen in the US
>
> That is likely because they are much more religious and
> are stupid enough to believe that some god or other
> doesn’t allow you to kill yourself and that you need
> to have someone wipe your arse and feed you etc.

The UK is more like Aus, and doesn't see the same thing.

> And they do in fact have the same hike towards the
> end of their lives, it just doesn’t get quite as high as
> the suicide rate in middle age, because the USA does
> in fact have a much higher total suicide rate than Oz,
> presumably because of the much worse health care
> system for those who don’t have the best insurance.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US_Suicide_Rate_by_Age.svg

Yep. Mental health support for the needy is woeful despite a culture of
therapy in the US.

> There is also a significant race effect with the non whites
> much less likely to commit suicide.
>
>> (or UK) so irrelevant to the question of guns.
>
> Bullshit. Its one of the most effective ways of killing
> yourself when the society has not been stupid enough
> to ban the holding of guns by the general public.

I was referring to the age effect.

>>> Those arent likely to be a moment of despair or a moment of weakness
>>> or pain
>
>> That's simply a presumption by you.
>
> Bullshit with that age variation.

Show how age doesn't affected despair or moments of weakness.

>>> and clearly they did
>>> manage to kill themselves even when they couldn’t
>>> use a gun to do that. And we know that a lot fewer
>>> do have guns now due to the bureaucratic bullshit
>>> involved now, tho the total number of guns has
>>> increased because licensed gun owners have more
>>> of them than before the change to the gun laws.
>
>> The better question is why? Why are elderly men increasingly killing
>> themselves in Australia - it's not the same in other countries?
>
> That’s bullshit with the USA.
>
>> Women aren't so affected. Although, suicide is not a major cause of
>> death in the 85+ like it is for young men nor do they make up a large
>> number of total suicides given there are fewer men over 85.
>
>> Maybe it's a symptom increasing dementia in the elderly as suggested
>> here:
>> https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19182182/
>
> Mindlessly silly given that dementia happens everywhere.

Yup which is what the research describes.

>> Again, evidence that suicide is not the choice of someone in their
>> "right mind"
>
> More utterly mindless bullshit. Our equivalent of the
> governor of the bank of england and his wife chose
> to commit suicide. There was a hell of a stink about
> that by fools like you but that was clearly a very
> rational and well thought out choice they made.

That's not typical.

>> or it could really be people choosing euthanasia over living with
>> dementia.
>
> Much more likely a rational chose of suicide over
> the real downsides of old age in a nursing home etc.
>
> And we have chosen to have voluntary euthanasia
> in most of out states now, and heaps have chosen
> to use it, coming up for 300 in Victoria alone and
> it hasn’t been going for very long yet.
>
> Still stupidly bureaucratic and none of the states
> allow you to just decide that you would rather be
> dead than alive. You have to have a serious medical
> condition that will see you killed by that quite soon.
>
> Fuck that, its none of your damned business
> if I decide that I prefer to be dead.

As long as you can show that it's a rational decision taken by you alone
without being coerced.

>>>>> Rational people think that's a good thing.
>>>
>>>> More mindless bullshit.
>>
>> Suicide is a public health issue
>
> Bullshit it is.
>
>> that all countries try to address.
>
> More mindless bullshit, plenty arent that stupid.
>
>> It's not something that should be accepted or encouraged.
>
> You fuckwits get no say what so ever on that. It isnt even illegal anymore.

I'm actually in favour of legal assisted euthanasia, but globally it's
still not available in most countries (even developed ones).

"Chris" <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:s6cm8d$o3v$1@dont-email.me...
> On 27/04/2021 19:20, Rod Speed wrote:
>>
>>
>> "Chris" <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:s68psu$e23$1@dont-email.me...
>>> On 27/04/2021 04:13, Rod Speed wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:iepag2FufsU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The US suicide rate per million for firearms is nearly 75 while
>>>>>>>> Canada's rate is 15.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Because its much harder to have a gun in Canada, stupid.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Precisely.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So fewer people die.
>>>>>
>>>>> You don’t know that either, you have no idea
>>>>> how many kill themselves in other ways instead.
>>>>
>>>> In fact more people die now that did before the gun
>>>> law changes in Australia. And its no coincidence that
>>>> by far the highest male suicide rate is in the over 85s.
>>
>>> Why is it no coincidence? What has age got to do with it?
>>
>> Clearly plenty of those have decided that they have
>> no interest in needing someone to wipe their arse
>> and feed them when they are no longer able to do that
>> for themselves and would prefer to be dead instead.

> Again why "no coincidence"?

Because those are the ones most likely to decide that
no interest in needing someone to wipe their arse and
feed them when they are no longer able to do that
for themselves and would prefer to be dead instead.

> Nowhere else are old men the largest cohort of suicide victims.

Plenty of other places have those at about the same
rate as the other peak with their 40-50 year olds.

> Usually it's young men who are the most common victims of suicide.

That’s bullshit too, its actually those in the 40s and 50s.

>>> This is a question for Aussies as this age effect is not seen in the US

>> That is likely because they are much more religious and
>> are stupid enough to believe that some god or other
>> doesn’t allow you to kill yourself and that you need
>> to have someone wipe your arse and feed you etc.

> The UK is more like Aus, and doesn't see the same thing.

It does see the same increased rate in the decades past 60,
presumably for the same reason.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/suicidesintheunitedkingdom/2019registrations
Figure6

Why the UK peak it’s a bit higher with the 40s and 50s
is less clear. It clearly cant be due to your stupid claim
about dementia and is unlikely to be due to the availability
of decent aged care facilitys if you cant afford to pay for that.

Likely its because the Australian economy is rather better
for those in the 40s and 50s than it is for those in the UK.

>> And they do in fact have the same hike towards the
>> end of their lives, it just doesn’t get quite as high as
>> the suicide rate in middle age, because the USA does
>> in fact have a much higher total suicide rate than Oz,
>> presumably because of the much worse health care
>> system for those who don’t have the best insurance.
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US_Suicide_Rate_by_Age.svg

> Yep. Mental health support for the needy is woeful despite a culture of
> therapy in the US.

Its very unlikely to be due to the lack of mental health
support given that the peak is in the 40s and 50s. Its
much more likely to be due to the different employment
prospects for that age group in the USA given the vast
number of illegals they have and the obscenely low
minimum wage rate there. We have one of the highest
minimum wage rates in the entire world and similar
unemployment rates to the USA.

>> There is also a significant race effect with the non whites much less
>> likely to commit suicide.

And that is likely the reason for the lower rate in
the UK with that age group with so many of them
in the highest density population areas like London.

>>> (or UK) so irrelevant to the question of guns.

>> Bullshit. Its one of the most effective ways of killing
>> yourself when the society has not been stupid enough
>> to ban the holding of guns by the general public.

> I was referring to the age effect.

>>>> Those arent likely to be a moment of despair or a moment of weakness or
>>>> pain

>>> That's simply a presumption by you.

>> Bullshit with that age variation.

> Show how age doesn't affected despair or moments of weakness.

Why would that be most common in those in their 40s and 50s with males ?

>>>> and clearly they did manage to kill themselves even when they couldn’t
>>>> use a gun to do that. And we know that a lot fewer do have guns now due
>>>> to the bureaucratic bullshit involved now, tho the total number of guns
>>>> has
>>>> increased because licensed gun owners have more
>>>> of them than before the change to the gun laws.

And now that Victoria has some euthanasia available for
those with a terminal illness which will kill them in a year,
we have seen coming up for 300 individuals go thru the
stupid bureaucratic process of using that and that’s close
to half the annual rate in that state. And given that those
who would just prefer to be dead and don’t have a terminal
illness, plenty of the rest who killed themselves are very
unlikely to have been due to a moment of despair etc
given that some planning is still required to kill yourself
if you cant just shoot yourself.

>>> The better question is why? Why are elderly men increasingly killing
>>> themselves in Australia - it's not the same in other countries?
>>
>> That’s bullshit with the USA.
>>
>>> Women aren't so affected. Although, suicide is not a major cause of
>>> death in the 85+ like it is for young men nor do they make up a large
>>> number of total suicides given there are fewer men over 85.
>>
>>> Maybe it's a symptom increasing dementia in the elderly as suggested
>>> here:
>>> https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19182182/
>>
>> Mindlessly silly given that dementia happens everywhere.
>
> Yup which is what the research describes.

But doesn’t explain the peak in the 40s and 50s.
Very unlikely that those are the demented.

>>> Again, evidence that suicide is not the choice of someone in their
>>> "right mind"

>> More utterly mindless bullshit. Our equivalent of the
>> governor of the bank of england and his wife chose
>> to commit suicide. There was a hell of a stink about
>> that by fools like you but that was clearly a very
>> rational and well thought out choice they made.

> That's not typical.

Irrelevant.

>>> or it could really be people choosing euthanasia over living with
>>> dementia.
>>
>> Much more likely a rational chose of suicide over
>> the real downsides of old age in a nursing home etc.
>>
>> And we have chosen to have voluntary euthanasia
>> in most of out states now, and heaps have chosen
>> to use it, coming up for 300 in Victoria alone and
>> it hasn’t been going for very long yet.
>>
>> Still stupidly bureaucratic and none of the states
>> allow you to just decide that you would rather be
>> dead than alive. You have to have a serious medical
>> condition that will see you killed by that quite soon.
>>
>> Fuck that, its none of your damned business
>> if I decide that I prefer to be dead.

> As long as you can show that it's a rational decision taken by you alone
> without being coerced.

I don’t have to show anything, I get to tell
you to mind your own fucking business.

>>>>>> Rational people think that's a good thing.
>>>>
>>>>> More mindless bullshit.
>>>
>>> Suicide is a public health issue
>>
>> Bullshit it is.
>>
>>> that all countries try to address.
>>
>> More mindless bullshit, plenty arent that stupid.
>>
>>> It's not something that should be accepted or encouraged.
>>
>> You fuckwits get no say what so ever on that. It isnt even illegal
>> anymore.
>
> I'm actually in favour of legal assisted euthanasia, but globally it's
> still not available in most countries (even developed ones).

On 04/28/2021 03:06 PM, Chris wrote:
> On 27/04/2021 19:20, Rod Speed wrote:
>> Fuck that, its none of your damned business
>> if I decide that I prefer to be dead.

Every once in a while Rod makes sense.

> As long as you can show that it's a rational decision taken by you alone
> without being coerced.

No. We shouldn't have to be given permission.

--
Cheers,Bev
aibohphobia - fear of palindromes

The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 04/28/2021 03:06 PM, Chris wrote:
>> On 27/04/2021 19:20, Rod Speed wrote:
>>> Fuck that, its none of your damned business
>>> if I decide that I prefer to be dead.
>
> Every once in a while Rod makes sense.
>
>> As long as you can show that it's a rational decision taken by you alone
>> without being coerced.
>
> No. We shouldn't have to be given permission.

We have a responsibility to look after the vulnerable. Nothing to do with
permission.

Chris wrote on 29.04.2021 11:35

> We have a responsibility to look after the vulnerable.
> Nothing to do with permission.

Which is why we have lawn mower safety laws.

Only purely emotional people - filled with fear - want to ban guns.
For sensibly logical people it's the same logic as with gun safety laws.

Sensible people don't destroy the Bill of Rights to enact safety laws.

The Real Bev wrote on 29.04.2021 06:30

> No. We shouldn't have to be given permission.

When the right time comes it makes perfect sense to commit suicide.
The good news is that they can't possibly stop anyone from doing so.

Guns or no guns - if someone wants to kill themselves - they will.
It's easy to do physically - by so many methods - I won't even list them.

The method has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the task.
Only a purely emotional ridiculously illogical person would blame the gun.

Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote
> The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> wrote
>> Chris wrote
>>> Rod Speed wrote

>>>> Fuck that, its none of your damned business
>>>> if I decide that I prefer to be dead.

>> Every once in a while Rod makes sense.

>>> As long as you can show that it's a rational decision
>>> taken by you alone without being coerced.

>> No. We shouldn't have to be given permission.
>
> We have a responsibility to look after the vulnerable.

You havent established that someone who
chooses to kill themselves are vulnerable.

And they don’t have to prove to anyone that they arent vulnerable.

> Nothing to do with permission.

More bullshit with those who choose euthanasia.

On 2021-04-29 6:10 a.m., paul wrote:
> Chris wrote on 29.04.2021 11:35
>
>> We have a responsibility to look after the vulnerable.
>> Nothing to do with permission.
>
> Which is why we have lawn mower safety laws.
>
> Only purely emotional people - filled with fear - want to ban guns.
> For sensibly logical people it's the same logic as with gun safety laws.
>
> Sensible people don't destroy the Bill of Rights to enact safety laws.
>

False dichotomy.

On 4/29/2021 6:14 AM, paul wrote:

> Guns or no guns - if someone wants to kill themselves - they will.
> It's easy to do physically - by so many methods - I won't even list
> them.

A few days ago a guy in San Diego jumped off a parking garage and landed
on a lady walking below killing her too. So the gun method can be safer.
In one of my prior lives I saw the aftermath of many suicides. Guns are
by far the most popular method here.

"AJL" <noemail@none.com> wrote in message news:s6el7t$qgn$1@dont-email.me...
> On 4/29/2021 6:14 AM, paul wrote:
>
>> Guns or no guns - if someone wants to kill themselves - they will.
>> It's easy to do physically - by so many methods - I won't even list
>> them.
>
> A few days ago a guy in San Diego jumped off a parking garage and landed
> on a lady walking below killing her too. So the gun method can be safer.
> In one of my prior lives I saw the aftermath of many suicides.

> Guns are by far the most popular method here.

Only if you mean much more popular than any other single method.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:2010_suicide_rates_-_gun_versus_non-gun_-_high-income_countries.png

On 4/29/2021 9:19 AM, Rod Speed wrote:
>
>
> "AJL" <noemail@none.com> wrote in message
> news:s6el7t$qgn$1@dont-email.me...
>> On 4/29/2021 6:14 AM, paul wrote:
>>
>>> Guns or no guns - if someone wants to kill themselves - they
>>> will. It's easy to do physically - by so many methods - I won't
>>> even list them.
>>
>> A few days ago a guy in San Diego jumped off a parking garage and
>> landed on a lady walking below killing her too. So the gun method
>> can be safer. In one of my prior lives I saw the aftermath of many
>> suicides.
>
>> Guns are by far the most popular method here.
>
> Only if you mean much more popular than any other single method.
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:2010_suicide_rates_-_gun_versus_non-gun_-_high-income_countries.png>

I meant "most popular method here" to mean MY geographical area where I
worked for several years and personally witnessed the remains of many
people who had committed suicide.

BTW lots of elderly people I saw had hung themselves on a doorknob.
Apparently the word gets around in the retirement communities on this
particular method. Perhaps they should outlaw rope there? But it does
have the advantage of being less messy and thus a closed casket isn't
required.

BTW2 the gun argument while being very dramatic is unlikely to solve
much here IMO. Even US states with strong gun laws have excessive gun
crime. It's in the culture and there are just too many guns in the wild
to confiscate in several lifetimes.

"AJL" <noemail@none.com> wrote in message news:s6esfm$heq$1@dont-email.me...
> On 4/29/2021 9:19 AM, Rod Speed wrote:
>>
>>
>> "AJL" <noemail@none.com> wrote in message
>> news:s6el7t$qgn$1@dont-email.me...
>>> On 4/29/2021 6:14 AM, paul wrote:
>>>
>>>> Guns or no guns - if someone wants to kill themselves - they
>>>> will. It's easy to do physically - by so many methods - I won't
>>>> even list them.
>>>
>>> A few days ago a guy in San Diego jumped off a parking garage and
>>> landed on a lady walking below killing her too. So the gun method
>>> can be safer. In one of my prior lives I saw the aftermath of many
>>> suicides.
>>
>>> Guns are by far the most popular method here.
>>
>> Only if you mean much more popular than any other single method.
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:2010_suicide_rates_-_gun_versus_non-gun_-_high-income_countries.png>
>
> I meant "most popular method here" to mean MY geographical area where I
> worked for several years and personally witnessed the remains of many
> people who had committed suicide.
>
> BTW lots of elderly people I saw had hung themselves on a doorknob.
> Apparently the word gets around in the retirement communities on this
> particular method.

Don’t they look at you a bit oddly when you show up with some rope from
walmart etc ?

> Perhaps they should outlaw rope there?

I know they outlaw electrical cords in our loony bin because
a mate of mine quite literally rang me from inside the loony
bin to ask me which region free DVD player he should get
his wife to buy and bring him so he could play his DVDs.

> But it does have the advantage of being less messy

Yep.

> and thus a closed casket isn't required.

Doesn’t the head still look obviously like they have hanged themselves
or is the makeup person at the funeral place that good ?

> BTW2 the gun argument while being very dramatic is unlikely to solve much
> here IMO. Even US states with strong gun laws have excessive gun crime.

Yeah, because those are the ones most likely to want
to do something about the level of gun crime. Not that
it works when its so easy to get any gun you want.

Unlikely Biden will be able to do anything about it, he fucked
up completely when he tried as the vice prez before.

> It's in the culture and there are just too many guns in the wild to
> confiscate in several lifetimes.

Yep.

AJL wrote on 29.04.2021 20:04

> Perhaps they should outlaw rope there?

No. They MUST outlaw doorknobs!

Amazingly that's exactly how the Democrats actually think.

Take away the doorknobs and people will suddenly not want to die.

On 4/29/2021 12:51 PM, Rod Speed wrote:
> "AJL" <noemail@none.com> wrote in message

>> Lots of elderly people I saw had hung themselves on a
>> doorknob...But it does have the advantage of being less messy and
>> thus a closed casket isn't required.

> Doesn’t the head still look obviously like they have hanged
> themselves or is the makeup person at the funeral place that good ?

That was a bit of morbid humor on my part. Often old folks living alone
weren't found for several days and by that time the morticians were
fully suited up for the removal.

AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:
> On 4/29/2021 9:19 AM, Rod Speed wrote:
>>
>>
>> "AJL" <noemail@none.com> wrote in message
>> news:s6el7t$qgn$1@dont-email.me...
>>> On 4/29/2021 6:14 AM, paul wrote:
>>>
>>>> Guns or no guns - if someone wants to kill themselves - they
>>>> will. It's easy to do physically - by so many methods - I won't
>>>> even list them.
>>>
>>> A few days ago a guy in San Diego jumped off a parking garage and
>>> landed on a lady walking below killing her too. So the gun method
>>> can be safer. In one of my prior lives I saw the aftermath of many
>>> suicides.
>>
>>> Guns are by far the most popular method here.
>>
>> Only if you mean much more popular than any other single method.
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:2010_suicide_rates_-_gun_versus_non-gun_-_high-income_countries.png>
>
> I meant "most popular method here" to mean MY geographical area where I
> worked for several years and personally witnessed the remains of many
> people who had committed suicide.
>
> BTW lots of elderly people I saw had hung themselves on a doorknob.
> Apparently the word gets around in the retirement communities on this
> particular method. Perhaps they should outlaw rope there? But it does
> have the advantage of being less messy and thus a closed casket isn't
> required.
>
> BTW2 the gun argument while being very dramatic is unlikely to solve
> much here IMO.

Why?

> Even US states with strong gun laws have excessive gun
> crime.

"strong" has a different meaning in the US.

> It's in the culture and there are just too many guns in the wild
> to confiscate in several lifetimes.

That's not a reason to not try and do something. It's also not about
"confiscation".

Chris wrote on 30.04.2021 09:10

> It's also not about "confiscation".

When someone it taking away something from you they lie that they're not.

*It _IS_ about confiscation.*

Anyone who claims otherwise is not being honest with themselves or with you.

Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:
> Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote
>> The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> wrote
>>> Chris wrote
>>>> Rod Speed wrote
>
>>>>> Fuck that, its none of your damned business
>>>>> if I decide that I prefer to be dead.
>
>>> Every once in a while Rod makes sense.
>
>>>> As long as you can show that it's a rational decision
>>>> taken by you alone without being coerced.
>
>>> No. We shouldn't have to be given permission.
>>
>> We have a responsibility to look after the vulnerable.
>
> You havent established that someone who
> chooses to kill themselves are vulnerable.

By definition, they are.

"a person over the age of 18 who is unable to take care of themselves. It
can also refer to one who is unable to protect themselves against
significant harm or exploitation."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulnerable_adult

> And they don’t have to prove to anyone that they arent vulnerable.

That's not required.

>> Nothing to do with permission.
>
> More bullshit with those who choose euthanasia.

It's safety from harm not permission.

Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>> Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote
>>> The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> wrote
>>>> Chris wrote
>>>>> Rod Speed wrote

>>>>>> Fuck that, its none of your damned business
>>>>>> if I decide that I prefer to be dead.

>>>> Every once in a while Rod makes sense.

>>>>> As long as you can show that it's a rational decision
>>>>> taken by you alone without being coerced.

>>>> No. We shouldn't have to be given permission.

>>> We have a responsibility to look after the vulnerable.

>> You havent established that someone who
>> chooses to kill themselves are vulnerable.

> By definition, they are.

More utterly mindless bullshit with those like our equivalent
of your governor of the bank of england and his wife who
both decided that they has had a very decent life and had
no interest in having to have their arse wiped and being
fed by someone in a nursing home.

> "a person over the age of 18 who is unable to take care of
> themselves. It can also refer to one who is unable to protect
> themselves against significant harm or exploitation."
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulnerable_adult

You havent established that those who choose to kill
themselves fit that definition, just stupidly claimed that.

>> And they don’t have to prove to anyone that they arent vulnerable.

> That's not required.

That’s a lie with your second para above.

>>> Nothing to do with permission.

>> More bullshit with those who choose euthanasia.

> It's safety from harm not permission.

More utterly mindless flagrantly dishonest use of language.

On 29/04/2021 01:49, Rod Speed wrote:
>
>>>> This is a question for Aussies as this age effect is not seen in the US
>
>>> That is likely because they are much more religious and
>>> are stupid enough to believe that some god or other
>>> doesn’t allow you to kill yourself and that you need
>>> to have someone wipe your arse and feed you etc.
>
>> The UK is more like Aus, and doesn't see the same thing.
>
> It does see the same increased rate in the decades past 60,
> presumably for the same reason.
> https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/suicidesintheunitedkingdom/2019registrations
>
> Figure6
>
> Why the UK peak it’s a bit higher with the 40s and 50s
> is less clear.

See Figure 7. The trend in all other age groups has dropped over the
last 20-30 years which exaggerates the increase in the 45-64 age-group.

> It clearly cant be due to your stupid claim
> about dementia

I didn't make the claim about the middle-aged. It was a finding by a
research study on the elderly, obviously.

> and is unlikely to be due to the availability
> of decent aged care facilitys if you cant afford to pay for that.
> Likely its because the Australian economy is rather better
> for those in the 40s and 50s than it is for those in the UK.

You've no evidence to support that. You could just read what the ONS
have to say about it, rather that come up with your own cod theories:

"Generally, higher rates of suicide among middle-aged men in recent
years might be because this group is more likely to be affected by
economic adversity, alcoholism and isolation. It could also be that this
group is less inclined to seek help. As well as being the most likely to
die by suicide, it is also this middle-aged generation that are most
likely to die by drug poisoning."

Even the ONS say that suicidal people need help.

>>> And they do in fact have the same hike towards the
>>> end of their lives, it just doesn’t get quite as high as
>>> the suicide rate in middle age, because the USA does
>>> in fact have a much higher total suicide rate than Oz,
>>> presumably because of the much worse health care
>>> system for those who don’t have the best insurance.
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US_Suicide_Rate_by_Age.svg
>
>> Yep. Mental health support for the needy is woeful despite a culture
>> of therapy in the US.
>
> Its very unlikely to be due to the lack of mental health
> support given that the peak is in the 40s and 50s.

Why don't the middle-aged need mental health support? The ONS directly
says they need help which is likely to be mental health related. It
isn't going to be gun training or advanced noose-tying.

> Its
> much more likely to be due to the different employment
> prospects for that age group in the USA given the vast
> number of illegals they have and the obscenely low
> minimum wage rate there. We have one of the highest
> minimum wage rates in the entire world and similar
> unemployment rates to the USA.

More cod theories.

>>>>> Those arent likely to be a moment of despair or a moment of
>>>>> weakness or pain
>
>>>> That's simply a presumption by you.
>
>>> Bullshit with that age variation.
>
>> Show how age doesn't affected despair or moments of weakness.
>
> Why would that be most common in those in their 40s and 50s with males ?

Why are you answering with a question?

>>>
>>>> Women aren't so affected. Although, suicide is not a major cause of
>>>> death in the 85+ like it is for young men nor do they make up a
>>>> large number of total suicides given there are fewer men over 85.
>>>
>>>> Maybe it's a symptom increasing dementia in the elderly as suggested
>>>> here:
>>>> https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19182182/
>>>
>>> Mindlessly silly given that dementia happens everywhere.
>>
>> Yup which is what the research describes.
>
> But doesn’t explain the peak in the 40s and 50s.
> Very unlikely that those are the demented.

Maybe there's *different* reasons? Gosh! Imagine that!

>>>> Again, evidence that suicide is not the choice of someone in their
>>>> "right mind"
>
>>> More utterly mindless bullshit. Our equivalent of the
>>> governor of the bank of england and his wife chose
>>> to commit suicide. There was a hell of a stink about
>>> that by fools like you but that was clearly a very
>>> rational and well thought out choice they made.
>
>> That's not typical.
>
> Irrelevant.

I agree. A rich banker's suicide is irrelevant to the general discussion.

> Irrelevant to your mindless bullshit that most who want to kill
> themselves "need help"

It's not me saying it. All the relevant professionals are saying, just
like the ONS (see above).

Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote
> Rod Speed wrote

>>>>> This is a question for Aussies as this age effect is not seen in the
>>>>> US

>>>> That is likely because they are much more religious and
>>>> are stupid enough to believe that some god or other
>>>> doesn’t allow you to kill yourself and that you need
>>>> to have someone wipe your arse and feed you etc.

>>> The UK is more like Aus, and doesn't see the same thing.

>> It does see the same increased rate in the decades past 60, presumably
>> for the same reason.

>> https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/suicidesintheunitedkingdom/2019registrations

>> Figure6

>> Why the UK peak it’s a bit higher with the 40s and 50s is less clear.

> See Figure 7. The trend in all other age groups has dropped over the last
>> 20-30 years which exaggerates the increase in the 45-64 age-group.

>> It clearly cant be due to your stupid claim about dementia

> I didn't make the claim about the middle-aged. It was a finding by a
> research study on the elderly, obviously.

Still no evidence that that is the reason with the elderly, whatever they
claim.

>> and is unlikely to be due to the availability of decent aged care
>> facilitys if you cant afford to pay for that.

>> Likely its because the Australian economy is rather better
>> for those in the 40s and 50s than it is for those in the UK.

> You've no evidence to support that.

Bullshit, we have the evidence of those choosing to migrate here.

> You could just read what the ONS have to say about it, rather that come up
> with your own cod theories:

It isnt a cod theory, whatever that might be.

> "Generally, higher rates of suicide among middle-aged men in recent years
> might be because this group is more likely to be affected by economic
> adversity,

Which is what I said, fuckwit.

> alcoholism and isolation.

No evidence that that has increased significantly lately.

Its just more mindless bullshit and waffle from you wankers.

> It could also be that this group is less inclined to seek help.

Again, no evidence that that has changed lately either.

> As well as being the most likely to die by suicide, it is also this
> middle-aged generation that are most likely to die by drug poisoning."

That’s not suicide, stupid.

> Even the ONS say that suicidal people need help.

Because that steaming turd was written by those
as stupid and as pig ignorant as you and your ilk.

>>>> And they do in fact have the same hike towards the
>>>> end of their lives, it just doesn’t get quite as high as
>>>> the suicide rate in middle age, because the USA does
>>>> in fact have a much higher total suicide rate than Oz,
>>>> presumably because of the much worse health care
>>>> system for those who don’t have the best insurance.
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US_Suicide_Rate_by_Age.svg

>>> Yep. Mental health support for the needy is woeful despite a culture of
>>> therapy in the US.

>> Its very unlikely to be due to the lack of mental health
>> support given that the peak is in the 40s and 50s.

> Why don't the middle-aged need mental health support?

I didn’t say they didn’t, but there is no reason to believe
that the age adjusted rate in that group should much worse
than in the group younger than that given what we know
about the age of incidence of mental health problems.

> The ONS directly says they need help which is likely to be mental health
> related.

No reason why that group should need that
more than the immediately younger group.

> It isn't going to be gun training

You don’t need gun training to shoot yourself, even
you should be able to manage to shoot yourself.

> or advanced noose-tying.

Ditto, even you should be able to work that out by trial and error.

>> Its much more likely to be due to the different employment
>> prospects for that age group in the USA given the vast
>> number of illegals they have and the obscenely low
>> minimum wage rate there. We have one of the highest
>> minimum wage rates in the entire world and similar
>> unemployment rates to the USA.

> More cod theories.

Keep this mindless shit up and your shit will be ignored.

>>>>>> Those arent likely to be a moment of despair or a moment of weakness
>>>>>> or pain
>>
>>>>> That's simply a presumption by you.
>>
>>>> Bullshit with that age variation.
>>
>>> Show how age doesn't affected despair or moments of weakness.
>>
>> Why would that be most common in those in their 40s and 50s with males ?
>
> Why are you answering with a question?

Because that question is just as relevant as yours.

>>>>> Women aren't so affected. Although, suicide is not a major cause of
>>>>> death in the 85+ like it is for young men nor do they make up a large
>>>>> number of total suicides given there are fewer men over 85.
>>>>
>>>>> Maybe it's a symptom increasing dementia in the elderly as suggested
>>>>> here:
>>>>> https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19182182/
>>>>
>>>> Mindlessly silly given that dementia happens everywhere.
>>>
>>> Yup which is what the research describes.
>>
>> But doesn’t explain the peak in the 40s and 50s.
>> Very unlikely that those are the demented.
>
> Maybe there's *different* reasons? Gosh! Imagine that!

See above.

>>>>> Again, evidence that suicide is not the choice of someone in their
>>>>> "right mind"
>>
>>>> More utterly mindless bullshit. Our equivalent of the
>>>> governor of the bank of england and his wife chose
>>>> to commit suicide. There was a hell of a stink about
>>>> that by fools like you but that was clearly a very
>>>> rational and well thought out choice they made.
>>
>>> That's not typical.
>>
>> Irrelevant.
>
> I agree. A rich banker's suicide is irrelevant to the general discussion.

Bullshit it is. He wasn’t rich either, just a public servant.

>> Irrelevant to your mindless bullshit that most who want to kill
>> themselves "need help"

> It's not me saying it. All the relevant professionals are saying,

Bullshit they are.

> just like the ONS (see above).

Pity about all those who decide for themselves that what you
fucking wankers believe is completely irrelevant and who
choose to kill themselves in increasing numbers now that
most of the stigma and religious proclamations are long gone.

There might just be a reason that its not even illegal
now in most enlightened jurisdictions and voluntary
euthanasia is becoming much more common.

You stupid wankers get to like that or
lump it mind your own damned business.

On 4/30/2021 2:10 AM, Chris wrote:
> AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:

>> It's in the culture and there are just too many guns in the wild
>> to confiscate in several lifetimes.

> That's not a reason to not try and do something.

Didn't say that. Just said *IMO* it ain't gonna happen anytime soon.

> It's also not about "confiscation".

Confiscation is on the minds of many of our politicians (Google it).

And as I said it's in our culture. And our language: Don't bring a
knife to a gunfight. Faster that a speeding bullet. If guns are
outlawed then only outlaws will have guns. Is that a gun in
your pocket or are you just happy to see me... ;)

On 30/04/2021 11:14, Rod Speed wrote:
> Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote
>> Rod Speed wrote
>
>>>>>> This is a question for Aussies as this age effect is not seen in
>>>>>> the US
>
>>>>> That is likely because they are much more religious and
>>>>> are stupid enough to believe that some god or other
>>>>> doesn’t allow you to kill yourself and that you need
>>>>> to have someone wipe your arse and feed you etc.
>
>>>> The UK is more like Aus, and doesn't see the same thing.
>
>>> It does see the same increased rate in the decades past 60,
>>> presumably for the same reason.
>
>>> https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/suicidesintheunitedkingdom/2019registrations
>>>
>
>>> Figure6
>
>>> Why the UK peak it’s a bit higher with the 40s and 50s is less clear.
>
>> See Figure 7. The trend in all other age groups has dropped over the last
>>> 20-30 years which exaggerates the increase in the 45-64 age-group.
>
>>> It clearly cant be due to your stupid claim about dementia
>
>> I didn't make the claim about the middle-aged. It was a finding by a
>> research study on the elderly, obviously.
>
> Still no evidence that that is the reason with the elderly, whatever
> they claim.

The published findings of a research study are, by definition, evidence.
You, on the hand, have nothing other than anecdote and baseless theories.

>>> and is unlikely to be due to the availability of decent aged care
>>> facilitys if you cant afford to pay for that.
>
>>> Likely its because the Australian economy is rather better
>>> for those in the 40s and 50s than it is for those in the UK.
>
>> You've no evidence to support that.
>
> Bullshit, we have the evidence of those choosing to migrate here.

Plenty people migrate to the UK too. So that doesn't tell you what you
think it does.

>>>>> And they do in fact have the same hike towards the
>>>>> end of their lives, it just doesn’t get quite as high as
>>>>> the suicide rate in middle age, because the USA does
>>>>> in fact have a much higher total suicide rate than Oz,
>>>>> presumably because of the much worse health care
>>>>> system for those who don’t have the best insurance.
>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US_Suicide_Rate_by_Age.svg
>
>>>> Yep. Mental health support for the needy is woeful despite a culture
>>>> of therapy in the US.
>
>>> Its very unlikely to be due to the lack of mental health
>>> support given that the peak is in the 40s and 50s.
>
>> Why don't the middle-aged need mental health support?
>
> I didn’t say they didn’t, but there is no reason to believe
> that the age adjusted rate in that group should much worse

The suicide rate is plenty reason.

> than in the group younger than that given what we know
> about the age of incidence of mental health problems.

What is it that we know about the age of incidence?

>> The ONS directly says they need help which is likely to be mental
>> health related.
>
> No reason why that group should need that
> more than the immediately younger group.

It isn't that they need more, it's that they aren't getting the help
they need due to old fashioned stigma surrounding mental health.

>> It isn't going to be gun training
>
> You don’t need gun training to shoot yourself, even
> you should be able to manage to shoot yourself.
>
>> or advanced noose-tying.
>
> Ditto, even you should be able to work that out by trial and error.
>
>>> Its much more likely to be due to the different employment
>>> prospects for that age group in the USA given the vast
>>> number of illegals they have and the obscenely low
>>> minimum wage rate there. We have one of the highest
>>> minimum wage rates in the entire world and similar
>>> unemployment rates to the USA.
>
>> More cod theories.
>
> Keep this mindless shit up and your shit will be ignored.
>
>>>>>>> Those arent likely to be a moment of despair or a moment of
>>>>>>> weakness or pain
>>>
>>>>>> That's simply a presumption by you.
>>>
>>>>> Bullshit with that age variation.
>>>
>>>> Show how age doesn't affected despair or moments of weakness.
>>>
>>> Why would that be most common in those in their 40s and 50s with males ?
>>
>> Why are you answering with a question?
>
> Because that question is just as relevant as yours.

I'm asking for evidence, you're simply deflecting. So try again. Show
how older people are less likely to affected by despair and moments of
weakness than the young.

>
> Pity about all those who decide for themselves that what you
> fucking wankers believe is completely irrelevant and who
> choose to kill themselves in increasing numbers now that
> most of the stigma and religious proclamations are long gone.
>
> There might just be a reason that its not even illegal
> now in most enlightened jurisdictions and voluntary
> euthanasia is becoming much more common.
>
> You stupid wankers get to like that or
> lump it mind your own damned business.

We've veered into euthanasia which is a very different topic, which like
I said I'm not against.

Basically, we've also veered massively away from gun-based deaths of
which suicide is a significant fraction in the US. Clearly, in Oz there
are different factors at play, as there are in many countries, unrelated
to guns.

On 30/04/2021 10:38, Rod Speed wrote:
> Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote
>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>> Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote
>>>> The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> wrote
>>>>> Chris wrote
>>>>>> Rod Speed wrote
>
>>>>>>> Fuck that, its none of your damned business
>>>>>>> if I decide that I prefer to be dead.
>
>>>>> Every once in a while Rod makes sense.
>
>>>>>> As long as you can show that it's a rational decision
>>>>>> taken by you alone without being coerced.
>
>>>>> No.  We shouldn't have to be given permission.
>
>>>> We have a responsibility to look after the vulnerable.
>
>>> You havent established that someone who
>>> chooses to kill themselves are vulnerable.
>
>> By definition, they are.
>
> More utterly mindless bullshit with those like our equivalent
> of your governor of the bank of england and his wife who
> both decided that they has had a very decent life and had
> no interest in having to have their arse wiped and being
> fed by someone in a nursing home.
>
>> "a person over the age of 18 who is unable to take care of
>> themselves. It can also refer to one who is unable to protect
>> themselves against significant harm or exploitation."
>> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulnerable_adult
>
> You havent established that those who choose to kill
> themselves fit that definition, just stupidly claimed that.

"a person [..] unable to protect themselves against significant harm".
Suicide very obviously fits the definition. It's idiotic to claim otherwise.