On 30/04/2021 18:23, AJL wrote:
> On 4/30/2021 2:10 AM, Chris wrote:
>> AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:
>
>>> It's in the culture and there are just too many guns in the wild
>>> to confiscate in several lifetimes.
>
>> That's not a reason to not try and do something.
>
> Didn't say that. Just said *IMO* it ain't gonna happen anytime soon.
>
>> It's also not about "confiscation".
>
> Confiscation is on the minds of many of our politicians (Google it).
>
> And as I said it's in our culture. And our language: Don't bring a
> knife to a gunfight. Faster that a speeding bullet. If guns are
> outlawed then only outlaws will have guns.

And the problem with that is? That policy works very well in other
countries as being able to arrest and charge people simply for carrying
an offensive weapon is a huge deterrent.

However, it is clear that guns cannot and will not be outlawed in the US
which means it comes down to regulation. Not being able to own a
semi-automatic assault rifle is not a violation of the constitution and
will not tarnish the culture of gun-totting Americans.

> Is that a gun in
> your pocket or are you just happy to see me...  ;)
>

Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote
> Rod Speed wrote
>> Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote
>>> Rod Speed wrote

>>>>>>> This is a question for Aussies as this age effect is not seen in the
>>>>>>> US

>>>>>> That is likely because they are much more religious and are stupid
>>>>>> enough to believe that some god or other doesn’t allow you to kill
>>>>>> yourself and that you need to have someone wipe your arse and feed
>>>>>> you etc.

>>>>> The UK is more like Aus, and doesn't see the same thing.

>>>> It does see the same increased rate in the decades past 60, presumably
>>>> for the same reason.

>>>> https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/suicidesintheunitedkingdom/2019registrations

>>>> Figure6

>>>> Why the UK peak it’s a bit higher with the 40s and 50s is less clear.

>>>> See Figure 7. The trend in all other age groups has dropped over the
>>>> last
>>>> 20-30 years which exaggerates the increase in the 45-64 age-group.
>>
>>>> It clearly cant be due to your stupid claim about dementia
>>
>>> I didn't make the claim about the middle-aged. It was a finding by a
>>> research study on the elderly, obviously.
>>
>> Still no evidence that that is the reason with the elderly, whatever they
>> claim.
>
> The published findings of a research study are, by definition, evidence.

Wrong, as always. There isnt any evidence that the increase
seen past 60 is due to dementia. And it doesn’t explain the
much lower suicide rate with the non whites at that age
either given that we know that they get dementia too.

> You, on the hand, have nothing other than anecdote and baseless theories.

More of your bare faced lies that you always end up with when
you have got done like a fucking dinner, as you always are.

In spades with your stupid lies about suicide still being illegal in
most jurisdictions and that the suicide peak is in their 20s and 30s.

>>>> and is unlikely to be due to the availability of decent aged care
>>>> facilitys if you cant afford to pay for that.

>>>> Likely its because the Australian economy is rather better
>>>> for those in the 40s and 50s than it is for those in the UK.

>>> You've no evidence to support that.

>> Bullshit, we have the evidence of those choosing to migrate here.

> Plenty people migrate to the UK too.

Not in that age group from Australia they don’t.

Its no news that plenty of places like Romania and
Poland etc do a lot worse economically than the UK.

> So that doesn't tell you what you think it does.

So what do you claim is the reason that group in
the UK suicide at a higher rate than in Australia ?

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/suicidesintheunitedkingdom/2019registrations

does in fact say that the state of the economy is one reason for that.
And so does
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/articles/suicidebyoccupation/england2011to2015

>>>>>> And they do in fact have the same hike towards the
>>>>>> end of their lives, it just doesn’t get quite as high as
>>>>>> the suicide rate in middle age, because the USA does
>>>>>> in fact have a much higher total suicide rate than Oz,
>>>>>> presumably because of the much worse health care
>>>>>> system for those who don’t have the best insurance.
>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US_Suicide_Rate_by_Age.svg
>>
>>>>> Yep. Mental health support for the needy is woeful despite a culture
>>>>> of therapy in the US.
>>
>>>> Its very unlikely to be due to the lack of mental health
>>>> support given that the peak is in the 40s and 50s.
>>
>>> Why don't the middle-aged need mental health support?
>>
>> I didn’t say they didn’t, but there is no reason to believe
>> that the age adjusted rate in that group should much worse
>
> The suicide rate is plenty reason.

Bullshit when we know that it isnt the time when
the first symptoms of mental illness are first seen.

>> than in the group younger than that given what we know
>> about the age of incidence of mental health problems.
>
> What is it that we know about the age of incidence?

That the first symptoms of mental illness are first seen at the younger
ages.

>>> The ONS directly says they need help which is likely to be mental health
>>> related.
>>
>> No reason why that group should need that
>> more than the immediately younger group.
>
> It isn't that they need more, it's that they aren't getting the help they
> need due to old fashioned stigma surrounding mental health.

Why is that any different for the middle aged
rather than those in the younger age group ?

And why is the incidence of mental illness worse
in the middle aged group in the UK than in Oz ?

>>> It isn't going to be gun training
>>
>> You don’t need gun training to shoot yourself, even
>> you should be able to manage to shoot yourself.
>>
>>> or advanced noose-tying.
>>
>> Ditto, even you should be able to work that out by trial and error.
>>
>>>> Its much more likely to be due to the different employment
>>>> prospects for that age group in the USA given the vast
>>>> number of illegals they have and the obscenely low
>>>> minimum wage rate there. We have one of the highest
>>>> minimum wage rates in the entire world and similar
>>>> unemployment rates to the USA.
>>
>>> More cod theories.
>>
>> Keep this mindless shit up and your shit will be ignored.
>>
>>>>>>>> Those arent likely to be a moment of despair or a moment of
>>>>>>>> weakness or pain
>>>>
>>>>>>> That's simply a presumption by you.
>>>>
>>>>>> Bullshit with that age variation.
>>>>
>>>>> Show how age doesn't affected despair or moments of weakness.
>>>>
>>>> Why would that be most common in those in their 40s and 50s with males
>>>> ?
>>>
>>> Why are you answering with a question?
>>
>> Because that question is just as relevant as yours.
>
> I'm asking for evidence,

I am too.

> you're simply deflecting.

And you arent ?

> So try again.

Go and fuck yourself, again.

> Show how older people are less likely to affected by despair and moments
> of weakness than the young.

I never said they were.

>> Pity about all those who decide for themselves that what you fucking
>> wankers believe is completely irrelevant and who choose to kill
>> themselves in increasing numbers now that
>> most of the stigma and religious proclamations are long gone.

>> There might just be a reason that its not even illegal
>> now in most enlightened jurisdictions and voluntary
>> euthanasia is becoming much more common.

>> You stupid wankers get to like that or
>> lump it mind your own damned business.

> We've veered into euthanasia which is a very different topic,

Bullshit it is. Its just getting someone else to help you kill yourself.

> which like I said I'm not against.

> Basically, we've also veered massively away from gun-based deaths of which
> suicide is a significant fraction in the US.

Because we rubbed you stupid nose in the fact that when
its a lot harder to get access to a gun to kill yourself, people
still manage to kill themselves very effectively anyway,
whether you stupid hand wringing wankers like that or not.

> Clearly, in Oz there are different factors at play, as there are in many
> countries, unrelated to guns.

You quite sure you arent one of those
rocket scientist hand wringing wankers ?

"Chris" <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:s6paf7$tf9$1@dont-email.me...
> On 30/04/2021 10:38, Rod Speed wrote:
>> Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote
>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>>> Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote
>>>>> The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> wrote
>>>>>> Chris wrote
>>>>>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>
>>>>>>>> Fuck that, its none of your damned business
>>>>>>>> if I decide that I prefer to be dead.
>>
>>>>>> Every once in a while Rod makes sense.
>>
>>>>>>> As long as you can show that it's a rational decision
>>>>>>> taken by you alone without being coerced.
>>
>>>>>> No. We shouldn't have to be given permission.
>>
>>>>> We have a responsibility to look after the vulnerable.
>>
>>>> You havent established that someone who
>>>> chooses to kill themselves are vulnerable.
>>
>>> By definition, they are.
>>
>> More utterly mindless bullshit with those like our equivalent
>> of your governor of the bank of england and his wife who
>> both decided that they has had a very decent life and had
>> no interest in having to have their arse wiped and being
>> fed by someone in a nursing home.
>>
>>> "a person over the age of 18 who is unable to take care of
>>> themselves. It can also refer to one who is unable to protect
>>> themselves against significant harm or exploitation."
>>> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulnerable_adult
>>
>> You havent established that those who choose to kill
>> themselves fit that definition, just stupidly claimed that.
>
> "a person [..] unable to protect themselves against significant harm".
> Suicide very obviously fits the definition.

Bullshit when the individual has made a rational choice
that they would prefer to be dead instead of alive.

> It's idiotic to claim otherwise.

Wota stunning line in rational argument you have there.

Chris wrote:
> On 30/04/2021 18:23, AJL wrote:

>> Confiscation is on the minds of many of our politicians.

> And the problem with that is? That policy works very well in other
> countries as being able to arrest and charge people simply for
> carrying an offensive weapon is a huge deterrent.

I think most here who carry would probably say that they are
carrying a defensive weapon.

> However, it is clear that guns cannot and will not be outlawed in
> the US which means it comes down to regulation.

Actually guns are regulated by various US jurisdictions to varying degrees.

> Not being able to own a semi-automatic assault rifle is not a
> violation of the constitution and will not tarnish the culture of
> gun-totting Americans.

Our Supreme Court makes the final decision on constitutional law.

On 03/05/2021 19:52, Rod Speed wrote:
> Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote
>> Rod Speed wrote
>>> Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote
>>>> Rod Speed wrote
>
>>>>>>>> This is a question for Aussies as this age effect is not seen in
>>>>>>>> the US
>
>>>>>>> That is likely because they are much more religious and are
>>>>>>> stupid enough to believe that some god or other doesn’t allow you
>>>>>>> to kill yourself and that you need to have someone wipe your arse
>>>>>>> and feed you etc.
>
>>>>>> The UK is more like Aus, and doesn't see the same thing.
>
>>>>> It does see the same increased rate in the decades past 60,
>>>>> presumably for the same reason.
>
>>>>> https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/suicidesintheunitedkingdom/2019registrations
>>>>>
>
>>>>> Figure6
>
>>>>> Why the UK peak it’s a bit higher with the 40s and 50s is less clear.
>
>>>>> See Figure 7. The trend in all other age groups has dropped over
>>>>> the last
>>>>> 20-30 years which exaggerates the increase in the 45-64 age-group.
>>>
>>>>> It clearly cant be due to your stupid claim about dementia
>>>
>>>> I didn't make the claim about the middle-aged. It was a finding by a
>>>> research study on the elderly, obviously.
>>>
>>> Still no evidence that that is the reason with the elderly, whatever
>>> they claim.
>>
>> The published findings of a research study are, by definition, evidence.
>
> Wrong, as always. There isnt any evidence that the increase
> seen past 60 is due to dementia. And it doesn’t explain the
> much lower suicide rate with the non whites at that age
> either given that we know that they get dementia too.
>
>> You, on the hand, have nothing other than anecdote and baseless theories.
>
> More of your bare faced lies that you always end up with when
> you have got done like a fucking dinner, as you always are.
>
> In spades with your stupid lies about suicide still being illegal in
> most jurisdictions and that the suicide peak is in their 20s and 30s.

It's notable that you attack the messenger rather than address the
question. Losing the argument much?

I acknowledged that I was wrong about the peak in the younger age group.
That has changed in recent years, although it is still a big focus that
you hear about in the media.

>>>>> and is unlikely to be due to the availability of decent aged care
>>>>> facilitys if you cant afford to pay for that.
>
>>>>> Likely its because the Australian economy is rather better
>>>>> for those in the 40s and 50s than it is for those in the UK.
>
>>>> You've no evidence to support that.
>
>>> Bullshit, we have the evidence of those choosing to migrate here.
>
>> Plenty people migrate to the UK too.
>
> Not in that age group from Australia they don’t.
>
> Its no news that plenty of places like Romania and
> Poland etc do a lot worse economically than the UK.
>
>> So that doesn't tell you what you think it does.
>
> So what do you claim is the reason that group in
> the UK suicide at a higher rate than in Australia ?

I don't know, but it sure isn't single simple issue like you want to
claim. Of the many factors mental health is a big one.

> https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/suicidesintheunitedkingdom/2019registrations
>
>
> does in fact say that the state of the economy is one reason for that.

Where? I see this:

"Suicide rates tend to increase in the oldest age groups for both males
and females. Many factors contribute to this widely seen phenomenon
around the world such as psychiatric illness, deterioration of physical
health and functioning, and social factors."

> And so does
> https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/articles/suicidebyoccupation/england2011to2015

A search for the word "economy" finds nothing. All it highlights is
certain occupations e.g. highly manual or low-skilled work

"Among males, an elevated risk of suicide was found among low-skilled
workers, skilled manual workers, those working in arts-related
occupations and as carers."

>
>
>>>>>>> And they do in fact have the same hike towards the
>>>>>>> end of their lives, it just doesn’t get quite as high as
>>>>>>> the suicide rate in middle age, because the USA does
>>>>>>> in fact have a much higher total suicide rate than Oz,
>>>>>>> presumably because of the much worse health care
>>>>>>> system for those who don’t have the best insurance.
>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US_Suicide_Rate_by_Age.svg
>>>
>>>>>> Yep. Mental health support for the needy is woeful despite a
>>>>>> culture of therapy in the US.
>>>
>>>>> Its very unlikely to be due to the lack of mental health
>>>>> support given that the peak is in the 40s and 50s.
>>>
>>>> Why don't the middle-aged need mental health support?
>>>
>>> I didn’t say they didn’t, but there is no reason to believe
>>> that the age adjusted rate in that group should much worse
>>
>> The suicide rate is plenty reason.
>
> Bullshit when we know that it isnt the time when
> the first symptoms of mental illness are first seen.
>
>>> than in the group younger than that given what we know
>>> about the age of incidence of mental health problems.
>>
>> What is it that we know about the age of incidence?
>
> That the first symptoms of mental illness are first seen at the younger
> ages.

*Now* it is, but historically not. So those who had mental illness since
they were younger weren't known about so have suffered for years without
help.

>>>> The ONS directly says they need help which is likely to be mental
>>>> health related.
>>>
>>> No reason why that group should need that
>>> more than the immediately younger group.
>>
>> It isn't that they need more, it's that they aren't getting the help
>> they need due to old fashioned stigma surrounding mental health.
>
> Why is that any different for the middle aged
> rather than those in the younger age group ?

See above. Many adults are being diagnosed with mental illness that
could/should have been picked up in childhood
https://www.menshealth.com/uk/mental-strength/a35948862/autism-still-misunderstood/

> And why is the incidence of mental illness worse
> in the middle aged group in the UK than in Oz ?

Not sure you can say that purely from the suicide stats. Just because
they are fewer suicides in the 40-50 age group in Oz than the UK you
can't claim that there are differences in mental illness incidence. They
may be, but you'd need to look in more depth, as suicide is just one of
several potential outcomes.

>>>>>>>>> Those arent likely to be a moment of despair or a moment of
>>>>>>>>> weakness or pain
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That's simply a presumption by you.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bullshit with that age variation.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Show how age doesn't affected despair or moments of weakness.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why would that be most common in those in their 40s and 50s with
>>>>> males ?
>>>>
>>>> Why are you answering with a question?
>>>
>>> Because that question is just as relevant as yours.
>>
>> I'm asking for evidence,
>
> I am too.

Only as a deflection.

>
>> you're simply deflecting.
>
> And you arent ?

Nope.

>> So try again.
>
> Go and fuck yourself, again.

Attacking the messenger, again.

>> Show how older people are less likely to affected by despair and
>> moments of weakness than the young.
>
> I never said they were.

Ahem, putting the above quote into context. This is what you wrote:
> And its no coincidence that
> by far the highest male suicide rate is in the over 85s.
> Those arent likely to be a moment of despair or a
> moment of weakness or pain

On 03/05/2021 20:26, Rod Speed wrote:
>
>
> "Chris" <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:s6paf7$tf9$1@dont-email.me...
>> On 30/04/2021 10:38, Rod Speed wrote:
>>> Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote
>>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>>>> Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote
>>>>>> The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> wrote
>>>>>>> Chris wrote
>>>>>>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>
>>>>>>>>> Fuck that, its none of your damned business
>>>>>>>>> if I decide that I prefer to be dead.
>>>
>>>>>>> Every once in a while Rod makes sense.
>>>
>>>>>>>> As long as you can show that it's a rational decision
>>>>>>>> taken by you alone without being coerced.
>>>
>>>>>>> No.  We shouldn't have to be given permission.
>>>
>>>>>> We have a responsibility to look after the vulnerable.
>>>
>>>>> You havent established that someone who
>>>>> chooses to kill themselves are vulnerable.
>>>
>>>> By definition, they are.
>>>
>>> More utterly mindless bullshit with those like our equivalent
>>> of your governor of the bank of england and his wife who
>>> both decided that they has had a very decent life and had
>>> no interest in having to have their arse wiped and being
>>> fed by someone in a nursing home.
>>>
>>>> "a person over the age of 18 who is unable to take care of
>>>> themselves. It can also refer to one who is unable to protect
>>>> themselves against significant harm or exploitation."
>>>> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulnerable_adult
>>>
>>> You havent established that those who choose to kill
>>> themselves fit that definition, just stupidly claimed that.
>>
>> "a person [..] unable to protect themselves against significant harm".
>> Suicide very obviously fits the definition.
>
> Bullshit when the individual has made a rational choice
> that they would prefer to be dead instead of alive.

Have they, though? On it's own, preferring to be dead is not a rational
decision.

>> It's idiotic to claim otherwise.
>
> Wota stunning line in rational argument you have there.

"You couldn't argue yourself out of a wet paper bag".

I've learned from the best in the business ;)

Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote
> Rod Speed wrote
>> "Chris" <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:s6paf7$tf9$1@dont-email.me...
>>> On 30/04/2021 10:38, Rod Speed wrote:
>>>> Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote
>>>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>>>>> Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote
>>>>>>> The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> wrote
>>>>>>>> Chris wrote
>>>>>>>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Fuck that, its none of your damned business
>>>>>>>>>> if I decide that I prefer to be dead.
>>>>
>>>>>>>> Every once in a while Rod makes sense.
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As long as you can show that it's a rational decision
>>>>>>>>> taken by you alone without being coerced.
>>>>
>>>>>>>> No. We shouldn't have to be given permission.
>>>>
>>>>>>> We have a responsibility to look after the vulnerable.
>>>>
>>>>>> You havent established that someone who
>>>>>> chooses to kill themselves are vulnerable.
>>>>
>>>>> By definition, they are.
>>>>
>>>> More utterly mindless bullshit with those like our equivalent
>>>> of your governor of the bank of england and his wife who
>>>> both decided that they has had a very decent life and had
>>>> no interest in having to have their arse wiped and being
>>>> fed by someone in a nursing home.
>>>>
>>>>> "a person over the age of 18 who is unable to take care of
>>>>> themselves. It can also refer to one who is unable to protect
>>>>> themselves against significant harm or exploitation."
>>>>> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulnerable_adult
>>>>
>>>> You havent established that those who choose to kill
>>>> themselves fit that definition, just stupidly claimed that.
>>>
>>> "a person [..] unable to protect themselves against significant harm".
>>> Suicide very obviously fits the definition.
>>
>> Bullshit when the individual has made a rational choice
>> that they would prefer to be dead instead of alive.
>
> Have they, though? On it's own, preferring to be dead is not a rational
> decision.

More utterly mindless silly shit when you have decided
that you don’t like the downsides of old age when you
are no longer able to even wipe your arse, need to wear
a nappy, have someone change it for you when you load
it, cant feed yourself, let alone prepare the meal for
yourself, have to use a walking frame to move about,
or are bed ridden.

>>> It's idiotic to claim otherwise.
>>
>> Wota stunning line in rational argument you have there.
>
> "You couldn't argue yourself out of a wet paper bag".
>
> I've learned from the best in the business ;)

Pathetic.

"Chris" <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:s6r1to$smn$1@dont-email.me...
> On 03/05/2021 19:52, Rod Speed wrote:
>> Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote
>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>> Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote
>>>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>
>>>>>>>>> This is a question for Aussies as this age effect is not seen in
>>>>>>>>> the US
>>
>>>>>>>> That is likely because they are much more religious and are stupid
>>>>>>>> enough to believe that some god or other doesn’t allow you to kill
>>>>>>>> yourself and that you need to have someone wipe your arse and feed
>>>>>>>> you etc.
>>
>>>>>>> The UK is more like Aus, and doesn't see the same thing.
>>
>>>>>> It does see the same increased rate in the decades past 60,
>>>>>> presumably for the same reason.
>>
>>>>>> https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/suicidesintheunitedkingdom/2019registrations
>>
>>>>>> Figure6
>>
>>>>>> Why the UK peak it’s a bit higher with the 40s and 50s is less clear.
>>
>>>>>> See Figure 7. The trend in all other age groups has dropped over the
>>>>>> last
>>>>>> 20-30 years which exaggerates the increase in the 45-64 age-group.
>>>>
>>>>>> It clearly cant be due to your stupid claim about dementia
>>>>
>>>>> I didn't make the claim about the middle-aged. It was a finding by a
>>>>> research study on the elderly, obviously.
>>>>
>>>> Still no evidence that that is the reason with the elderly, whatever
>>>> they claim.
>>>
>>> The published findings of a research study are, by definition, evidence.
>>
>> Wrong, as always. There isnt any evidence that the increase
>> seen past 60 is due to dementia. And it doesn’t explain the
>> much lower suicide rate with the non whites at that age
>> either given that we know that they get dementia too.
>>
>>> You, on the hand, have nothing other than anecdote and baseless
>>> theories.
>>
>> More of your bare faced lies that you always end up with when
>> you have got done like a fucking dinner, as you always are.
>>
>> In spades with your stupid lies about suicide still being illegal in
>> most jurisdictions and that the suicide peak is in their 20s and 30s.
>
> It's notable that you attack the messenger rather than address the
> question.

Corse you never did anything like that yourself, eh liar ?

> Losing the argument much?

Everyone can see that its you who have lost the argument.

> I acknowledged that I was wrong about the peak in the younger age group.

> That has changed in recent years,

Bullshit it has.

> although it is still a big focus that you hear about in the media.

Just goes to show how useless that is as a source of evidence.

>>>>>> and is unlikely to be due to the availability of decent aged care
>>>>>> facilitys if you cant afford to pay for that.
>>
>>>>>> Likely its because the Australian economy is rather better
>>>>>> for those in the 40s and 50s than it is for those in the UK.
>>
>>>>> You've no evidence to support that.
>>
>>>> Bullshit, we have the evidence of those choosing to migrate here.
>>
>>> Plenty people migrate to the UK too.
>>
>> Not in that age group from Australia they don’t.
>>
>> Its no news that plenty of places like Romania and
>> Poland etc do a lot worse economically than the UK.
>>
>>> So that doesn't tell you what you think it does.
>>
>> So what do you claim is the reason that group in
>> the UK suicide at a higher rate than in Australia ?
>
> I don't know, but it sure isn't single simple issue like you want to
> claim.

I never did anything of the sort, you silly little pathological liar.

And I wasn’t the fool that proclaimed that 99% of
suicides were due to despair and mental illness.

> Of the many factors mental health is a big one.

Easy to claim without a shred of evidence with that
40s and 50s age group which is the peak of suicides.

>> https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/suicidesintheunitedkingdom/2019registrations
>> does in fact say that the state of the economy is one reason for that.
>
> Where?

Go and find it for yourself. Search works.

> I see this:

> "Suicide rates tend to increase in the oldest age groups

That isnt the group being discussed there, you flagrantly dishonest
arsehole.

> for both males and females. Many factors contribute to this widely seen
> phenomenon around the world such as psychiatric illness, deterioration of
> physical health and functioning, and social factors."

And the other obvious explanation is the very significant increase
in severe medical problems with plenty choosing to kill themselves
instead of having to have others wipe their arse and feed them etc.

>> And so does
>> https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/articles/suicidebyoccupation/england2011to2015

> A search for the word "economy" finds nothing.

You should be searching for econ* fuckwit.

> All it highlights is certain occupations e.g. highly manual or
> low-skilledwork

Another bare faced lie.

> "Among males, an elevated risk of suicide was found among low-skilled
> workers, skilled manual workers, those working in arts-related occupations
> and as carers."

There might just be far more than just that
para you flagrantly dishonest arsehole.

>>>>>>>> And they do in fact have the same hike towards the
>>>>>>>> end of their lives, it just doesn’t get quite as high as
>>>>>>>> the suicide rate in middle age, because the USA does
>>>>>>>> in fact have a much higher total suicide rate than Oz,
>>>>>>>> presumably because of the much worse health care
>>>>>>>> system for those who don’t have the best insurance.
>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US_Suicide_Rate_by_Age.svg

>>>>>>>>>>> Yep. Mental health support for the needy is woeful despite a
>>>>>>>>>>> culture of therapy in the US.

>>>>>>>>>> Its very unlikely to be due to the lack of mental health
>>>>>>>>>> support given that the peak is in the 40s and 50s.

>>>>>>> Why don't the middle-aged need mental health support?

>>>>>> I didn’t say they didn’t, but there is no reason to believe
>>>>>> that the age adjusted rate in that group should much worse

>>>>> The suicide rate is plenty reason.

>> Bullshit when we know that it isnt the time when
>> the first symptoms of mental illness are first seen.

>>>> than in the group younger than that given what we know
>>>> about the age of incidence of mental health problems.

>>>>> What is it that we know about the age of incidence?

>>>> That the first symptoms of mental illness are first seen at the younger
>>>> ages.

> *Now* it is, but historically not.

More utterly mindless bullshit and lies.

And you have just claimed that the
peak was originally in young people,
you cant have it both ways, fuckwit.

> So those who had mental illness since they were younger weren't known
> about so have suffered for years without help.

More utterly mindless bullshit. Why would they be suiciding
much later when they are in their 40s and 50s now ?

>>>>> The ONS directly says they need help which is likely to be mental
>>>>> health related.

>>>> No reason why that group should need that
>>>> more than the immediately younger group.

>>> It isn't that they need more, it's that they aren't getting the help
>>> they need due to old fashioned stigma surrounding mental health.

>> Why is that any different for the middle aged
>> rather than those in the younger age group ?

> See above.

Completely useless, as always with your mindless shit.

> Many adults are being diagnosed with mental illness that could/should have
> been picked up in childhood

Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote

> I'm actually in favour of legal assisted euthanasia,

Why is it fine to have someone assist you to kill yourself,
but not possible to rationally decide that you choose not
to put up with the major downsides of old age or even
to decide that you have no interest in putting up with
'life' on the dole etc because you don’t like any of the
jobs that are possible with your capabilitys ?

Makes no sense at all that you hand wringing wankers
get any say what so ever on who can and cannot kill
themselves and who needs to be 'helped' when the
individual just wants you to fuck off and mind your
own damned business.

Same with those with severe mental illness. Why cant
those decide that they hate the downsides of their
mental illness and have tried the various meds and
other treatment that are claimed to "help" some
people and found that they have unacceptable
downsides ? Or even that they are addicts and
have found that they can't give up what they
are addicted to and choose to kill themselves
instead ?

On 04/05/2021 17:16, Rod Speed wrote:
> Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote
>
>> I'm actually in favour of legal assisted euthanasia,
>
> Why is it fine to have someone assist you to kill yourself,
> but not possible to rationally decide that you choose not

Who said it's not possible?

> to put up with the major downsides of old age or even
> to decide that you have no interest in putting up with
> 'life' on the dole etc because you don’t like any of the
> jobs that are possible with your capabilitys ?
>
> Makes no sense at all that you hand wringing wankers
> get any say what so ever on who can and cannot kill
> themselves and who needs to be 'helped' when the
> individual just wants you to fuck off and mind your
> own damned business.

It only "makes no sense" to people who don't understand mental illness.

> Same with those with severe mental illness. Why cant
> those decide that they hate the downsides of their
> mental illness and have tried the various meds and
> other treatment that are claimed to "help" some
> people and found that they have unacceptable
> downsides ?

No-one said they can't. However, it is important to differentiate
symptoms of the disease from a rational choice.

> Or even that they are addicts and
> have found that they can't give up what they
> are addicted to and choose to kill themselves
> instead ?

How on earth can a drug addled brain make that kind of coherent
decision? An addict literally cannot be rational. They are exactly the
kind of people that need the most help. Not abandoned to take matters
into their own hands.

You call it choice. I call it compassion and humanity.

Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote
> Rod Speed wrote
>> Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote

>>> I'm actually in favour of legal assisted euthanasia,

>> Why is it fine to have someone assist you to kill yourself,
>> but not possible to rationally decide that you choose not

> Who said it's not possible?

You know what I meant.

>> to put up with the major downsides of old age or even
>> to decide that you have no interest in putting up with
>> 'life' on the dole etc because you don’t like any of the
>> jobs that are possible with your capabilitys ?

>> Makes no sense at all that you hand wringing wankers
>> get any say what so ever on who can and cannot kill
>> themselves and who needs to be 'helped' when the
>> individual just wants you to fuck off and mind your
>> own damned business.

> It only "makes no sense" to people who don't understand mental illness.

You havent established that most of those who kill themselves
have a mental illness, just stupidly claimed that 99% do without
a shred of evidence that that is the case.

>> Same with those with severe mental illness. Why cant those decide that
>> they hate the downsides of their mental illness and have tried the
>> various meds and other treatment that are claimed to "help" some people
>> and found that they have unacceptable downsides ?

> No-one said they can't.

You know what I meant.

> However, it is important to differentiate symptoms of the disease from a
> rational choice.

You havent established that killing themselves
is a symptom of any disease.

>> Or even that they are addicts and have found that they can't give up what
>> they are addicted to and choose to kill themselves instead ?

> How on earth can a drug addled brain

Again, no evidence that their brain is drug addled,
particularly with alcoholics who decide that there
is no prospect of them stopping being alcoholics.

> make that kind of coherent decision?

Even a terminal fuckwit such as yourself should have
noticed that even drug addicts have times when they
are not actually under the influence of drugs.

> An addict literally cannot be rational.

More utterly mindless pig ignorant stupid stuff from you.

> They are exactly the kind of people that need the most help.

More utterly mindless pig ignorant stupid stuff from you.

> Not abandoned to take matters into their own hands.

More flagrantly dishonest language from you.

> You call it choice. I call it compassion and humanity.

Because you are a stupid mindless hand wringing wanker.

Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:
> Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote
>> Rod Speed wrote
>>> Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote
>
>>>> I'm actually in favour of legal assisted euthanasia,
>
>>> Why is it fine to have someone assist you to kill yourself,
>>> but not possible to rationally decide that you choose not
>
>> Who said it's not possible?
>
> You know what I meant.

Nope. Write what you mean rather than expect people to guess

>>> to put up with the major downsides of old age or even
>>> to decide that you have no interest in putting up with
>>> 'life' on the dole etc because you don’t like any of the
>>> jobs that are possible with your capabilitys ?
>
>>> Makes no sense at all that you hand wringing wankers
>>> get any say what so ever on who can and cannot kill
>>> themselves and who needs to be 'helped' when the
>>> individual just wants you to fuck off and mind your
>>> own damned business.
>
>> It only "makes no sense" to people who don't understand mental illness.
>
> You havent established that most of those who kill themselves
> have a mental illness, just stupidly claimed that 99% do without
> a shred of evidence that that is the case.

"Evidence from in-depth studies of the history of suicidal behaviour prior
to suicide suggests that there is evidence of a mental health disorder in
90 per cent of suicides (Cavanagh et al., 2003)"
https://www.bps.org.uk/sites/www.bps.org.uk/files/Policy/Policy%20-%20Files/Understanding%20and%20preventing%20suicide%20-%20a%20psychological%20perspective.pdf

>>> Same with those with severe mental illness. Why cant those decide that
>>> they hate the downsides of their mental illness and have tried the
>>> various meds and other treatment that are claimed to "help" some people
>>> and found that they have unacceptable downsides ?
>
>> No-one said they can't.
>
> You know what I meant.

I only know what you wrote.

>> However, it is important to differentiate symptoms of the disease from a
>> rational choice.
>
> You havent established that killing themselves
> is a symptom of any disease.

False. See above for further evidence. The whole document is a worthy read.

>>> Or even that they are addicts and have found that they can't give up what
>>> they are addicted to and choose to kill themselves instead ?
>
>> How on earth can a drug addled brain
>
> Again, no evidence that their brain is drug addled,
> particularly with alcoholics who decide that there
> is no prospect of them stopping being alcoholics.

It is by definition of addiction.

>> make that kind of coherent decision?
>
> Even a terminal fuckwit such as yourself should have
> noticed that even drug addicts have times when they
> are not actually under the influence of drugs.

Then they're not an addict.

>> An addict literally cannot be rational.
>
> More utterly mindless pig ignorant stupid stuff from you.

Is that the best you can do?

>> They are exactly the kind of people that need the most help.
>
> More utterly mindless pig ignorant stupid stuff from you.
>
>> Not abandoned to take matters into their own hands.
>
> More flagrantly dishonest language from you.
>
>> You call it choice. I call it compassion and humanity.
>
> Because you are a stupid mindless hand wringing wanker.

Do you even know what hand-wringing means? It simply leads to inaction.
Offering help and treatment to people is not hand-wringing. It works.
That's why suicide rates have dropped dramatically in the UK. Pretending
there isn't a problem and focusing on the wrong thing is criminal.

Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>> Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote
>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>> Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote

>>>>> I'm actually in favour of legal assisted euthanasia,

>>>> Why is it fine to have someone assist you to kill yourself,
>>>> but not possible to rationally decide that you choose not

>>> Who said it's not possible?

>> You know what I meant.

> Nope.

Even you arent actually that stupid, liar.

> Write what you mean rather than expect people to guess

There is no guess involved, you pathetic excuse for a lying bullshit artist.

>>>> to put up with the major downsides of old age or even
>>>> to decide that you have no interest in putting up with
>>>> 'life' on the dole etc because you don’t like any of the
>>>> jobs that are possible with your capabilitys ?

>>>> Makes no sense at all that you hand wringing wankers
>>>> get any say what so ever on who can and cannot kill
>>>> themselves and who needs to be 'helped' when the
>>>> individual just wants you to fuck off and mind your
>>>> own damned business.

>>> It only "makes no sense" to people who don't understand mental illness.

>> You havent established that most of those who kill themselves
>> have a mental illness, just stupidly claimed that 99% do without
>> a shred of evidence that that is the case.

> "Evidence from in-depth studies of the history of suicidal behaviour
> prior to suicide suggests that there is evidence of a mental health
> disorder in 90 per cent of suicides (Cavanagh et al., 2003)"

Just because some fool claims something without
a shred of evidence to substantiate that claim...

> https://www.bps.org.uk/sites/www.bps.org.uk/files/Policy/Policy%20-%20Files/Understanding%20and%20preventing%20suicide%20-%20a%20psychological%20perspective.pdf

>>>> Same with those with severe mental illness. Why cant those decide
>>>> that they hate the downsides of their mental illness and have tried
>>>> the various meds and other treatment that are claimed to "help"
>>>> some people and found that they have unacceptable downsides ?

>>> No-one said they can't.

>> You know what I meant.

> I only know what you wrote.

You never could bullshit and lie your way out of a wet paper bag.

>>> However, it is important to differentiate symptoms
>>> of the disease from a rational choice.

>> You havent established that killing themselves
>> is a symptom of any disease.

> False.

Nope.

> See above for further evidence.

That’s not evidence, that’s a CLAIM, fuckwit.

And even that steaming turd clearly states
that only 30% have had anything to do with
any mental health professionals before suicide.
And there is no evidence that even with that
group, there is a higher risk of suicide with
most of them either.

> The whole document is a worthy read.

Which is why I read it when I came across the previous one of theirs I
cited.

And if a schizophrenic decides that they don’t like the
symptoms of that mental illness, or the downsides with
the available medications and treatments for it, they
are free to kill themselves if they choose to anyway.

>>>> Or even that they are addicts and have found that they can't give up
>>>> what they are addicted to and choose to kill themselves instead ?

>>> How on earth can a drug addled brain

>> Again, no evidence that their brain is drug addled,
>> particularly with alcoholics who decide that there
>> is no prospect of them stopping being alcoholics.

> It is by definition of addiction.

More utterly mindless bullshit, most
obviously with workaholics, etc etc etc.

>>> make that kind of coherent decision?

>> Even a terminal fuckwit such as yourself should have
>> noticed that even drug addicts have times when they
>> are not actually under the influence of drugs.

> Then they're not an addict.

More utterly mindless simplistic bullshit.

>>> An addict literally cannot be rational.

>> More utterly mindless pig ignorant stupid stuff from you.

> Is that the best you can do?

This mindless shit is clearly the best you can do.

>>> They are exactly the kind of people that need the most help.

>> More utterly mindless pig ignorant stupid stuff from you.

>>> Not abandoned to take matters into their own hands.

>> More flagrantly dishonest language from you.

>>> You call it choice. I call it compassion and humanity.

>> Because you are a stupid mindless hand wringing wanker.

> Do you even know what hand-wringing means?

More utterly mindless bullshit from you.

> It simply leads to inaction.

Wrong, as always.

> Offering help and treatment to people is not hand-wringing. It works.

Bullshit it does with alcoholics and drug addicts.

> That's why suicide rates have dropped dramatically in the UK.

Bullshit they have.

> Pretending there isn't a problem and focusing on the wrong thing is
> criminal.

More utterly mindless pig ignorant stupid shit from you.

No one is focussing on the wrong thing except you mindless hand wringing
wankers.

On 05/05/2021 17:52, Rod Speed wrote:
>

[ snip vitriolic claptrap ]

Why reply when you have nothing to say?

This is now pointless and I'm done.

Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote

> Why reply when you have nothing to say?

Just as true of your shit.
> This is now pointless

Your shit always was.

> and I'm done.

You always have been, done like a fucking dinner.

Chris wrote on 05.05.2021 13:10

> That's why suicide rates have dropped dramatically in the UK. Pretending
> there isn't a problem and focusing on the wrong thing is criminal.

And yet you focus on a gun she doesn't even have to claim it's the solution.
https://www.wivb.com/news/local-news/buffalo/erie-county-da-police-to-provide-update-on-missing-buff-state-student/

Your claim that taking away the gun she didn't even have would have
prevented that suicide is yet another criticism of your pretend solution.

Your pretend solution can't work because the gun isn't the problem.