On Wednesday, July 19, 2023 at 9:45:17 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 19, 2023 at 3:39:50 AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
> > On Wednesday, July 19, 2023 at 12:59:04 PM UTC+5:30, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> > > Tue, 18 Jul 2023 13:06:18 -0700 (PDT): Dingbat
> > > <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> scribeva:
> > > >There are two terms Relex and Relexify.
>
> > > >A Relex Language
> > > > <<Relex is a term of criticism saying that someone has naïvely or unreflectively
> > > > imitated their native language too closely in creating a conlang.>>
> > > > <https://conlang.fandom.com/wiki/Relex>
> > > >But Israeli Hebrew (aka Modern Hebrew) is not intended as a conlang
> > > > and any imitation of Yiddish syntax is deliberate, not naïve.
> > > Really? Why?
> > >
> > For them to be imitating their native Yiddish, they'd have to be
> > native Yiddish speakers. As I understand it, the form of Modern
> > Hebrew was dictated by a committee who didn't all have the
> > same native language. Features were taken from Yiddish,
> > Biblical Hebrew, Sephardic Hebrew, Arabic and a number of
> > state languages of European states.
> Never mind "features were taken from." Where did you get this
> "committee" of non-Yiddish settlers in Palestine?

Montfort Castle (ruins) in northern Israel?

Wed, 19 Jul 2023 07:21:35 -0700 (PDT): bruce bowser
<bruce1.9bowser@gmail.com> scribeva:

>On Wednesday, July 19, 2023 at 3:15:10?AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen via Google Groups <google@rudhar.com> wrote:
>> On Tuesday, July 18, 2023 at 9:08:26?PM UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>> > On Tuesday, July 18, 2023 at 2:02:33?PM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> >> Also, I know that Yiddish is old and early attested, but was the
>> >> syntax then already as un-Hochdeutsch-ish as it is now?
>>
>> > I don't know how un-German it is.
>> For example, https://forward.com/yiddish/553169/tidbits-huge-jewish-center-opens-in-germany-fire-damages-former-synagogue-in-romania/, I quote the first sentence:
>> "??? ??????? ???????? ?????? ??? ?????????? ???? ??? ???????? ??????????? ???? ??? ??????? ?????? ??? ??????."
>> I can read and understand all the words except the Hebrew or Aramaic word ?????, which from context must mean war. (It does, you can hover or click each word to see more!)
>>
>> [...] center [...] hot zikh geefnt zuntik in berlin
>> In German it would be:
>> [...] Zentrum [...] wurde Sontag geöffnet in Berlin
>> or more literally, but also with a different word orde:
>> hat sich Sontag in Berlin geöffnet
>> hat sich Sontag geöffnet in Berlin.
>> (perhaps sontag as an adverb is written with lowercase?)
>>
>> Compare English:
>> has opened Sunday in Berlin.
>
>Has opened itself Sunday in Berlin [Hat sich Sontag geöffnet in Berlin].
>Has opened Sunday in Berlin. [Hat Sontag geöffnet in Berlin].

Yes, better.
--
Ruud Harmsen, https://rudhar.com

Wed, 19 Jul 2023 07:24:09 -0700 (PDT): bruce bowser
<bruce1.9bowser@gmail.com> scribeva:
>Montfort Castle (ruins) in northern Israel?

Montfort is a little town at biking distance from where I live. Not in
Israel, not in Portugal, but the the Netherlands.
--
Ruud Harmsen, https://rudhar.com

On Wednesday, July 19, 2023 at 10:04:00 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> Wed, 19 Jul 2023 06:45:16 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
> >On Wednesday, July 19, 2023 at 3:39:50?AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
> >> On Wednesday, July 19, 2023 at 12:59:04?PM UTC+5:30, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> >> > Tue, 18 Jul 2023 13:06:18 -0700 (PDT): Dingbat
> >> > <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> scribeva:

> >> > >There are two terms Relex and Relexify.
> >> > >A Relex Language
> >> > > <<Relex is a term of criticism saying that someone has naïvely or unreflectively
> >> > > imitated their native language too closely in creating a conlang.>>
> >> > > <https://conlang.fandom.com/wiki/Relex>
> >> > >But Israeli Hebrew (aka Modern Hebrew) is not intended as a conlang
> >> > > and any imitation of Yiddish syntax is deliberate, not naïve.
> >> > Really? Why?
> >> For them to be imitating their native Yiddish, they'd have to be
> >> native Yiddish speakers. As I understand it, the form of Modern
> >> Hebrew was dictated by a committee who didn't all have the
> >> same native language. Features were taken from Yiddish,
> >> Biblical Hebrew, Sephardic Hebrew, Arabic and a number of
> >> state languages of European states.
> >Never mind "features were taken from." Where did you get this
> >"committee" of non-Yiddish settlers in Palestine?
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliezer_Ben-Yehuda
> «To accomplish the task, Ben-Yehuda insisted with the Committee of the
> Hebrew Language that, to quote the Committee records, "In order to
> supplement the deficiencies of the Hebrew language, the Committee
> coins words according to the rules of grammar and linguistic analogy
> from Semitic roots: Aramaic and especially from Arabic roots" (Joshua
> Blau, page 33).»

What makes you think they were not all native speakers of Yiddish?

"Especially from Arabic" because that was the only available Semitic
language that had been adapting to modern circumstances for 2000
years.

On Wednesday, July 19, 2023 at 11:57:26 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> Wed, 19 Jul 2023 07:24:09 -0700 (PDT): bruce bowser
> <bruce1....@gmail.com> scribeva:

> >Montfort Castle (ruins) in northern Israel?
>
> Montfort is a little town at biking distance from where I live. Not in
> Israel, not in Portugal, but the the Netherlands.

Maybe some Crusaders named an outpost for it. In any event no
Crusader languages survived to the late 19th century. Unlikely
that they left any descendants, either.

Wed, 19 Jul 2023 09:10:46 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
<grammatim@verizon.net> scribeva:

>On Wednesday, July 19, 2023 at 10:04:00?AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> Wed, 19 Jul 2023 06:45:16 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
>> <gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
>> >On Wednesday, July 19, 2023 at 3:39:50?AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
>> >> On Wednesday, July 19, 2023 at 12:59:04?PM UTC+5:30, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> >> > Tue, 18 Jul 2023 13:06:18 -0700 (PDT): Dingbat
>> >> > <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> scribeva:
>
>> >> > >There are two terms Relex and Relexify.
>> >> > >A Relex Language
>> >> > > <<Relex is a term of criticism saying that someone has naïvely or unreflectively
>> >> > > imitated their native language too closely in creating a conlang.>>
>> >> > > <https://conlang.fandom.com/wiki/Relex>
>> >> > >But Israeli Hebrew (aka Modern Hebrew) is not intended as a conlang
>> >> > > and any imitation of Yiddish syntax is deliberate, not naïve.
>> >> > Really? Why?
>> >> For them to be imitating their native Yiddish, they'd have to be
>> >> native Yiddish speakers. As I understand it, the form of Modern
>> >> Hebrew was dictated by a committee who didn't all have the
>> >> same native language. Features were taken from Yiddish,
>> >> Biblical Hebrew, Sephardic Hebrew, Arabic and a number of
>> >> state languages of European states.
>> >Never mind "features were taken from." Where did you get this
>> >"committee" of non-Yiddish settlers in Palestine?
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliezer_Ben-Yehuda
>> «To accomplish the task, Ben-Yehuda insisted with the Committee of the
>> Hebrew Language that, to quote the Committee records, "In order to
>> supplement the deficiencies of the Hebrew language, the Committee
>> coins words according to the rules of grammar and linguistic analogy
>> from Semitic roots: Aramaic and especially from Arabic roots" (Joshua
>> Blau, page 33).»
>
>What makes you think they were not all native speakers of Yiddish?

Where did I write that that is what I think?

Is it entirely impossible some spoke Ladino?

>"Especially from Arabic" because that was the only available Semitic
>language that had been adapting to modern circumstances for 2000
>years.

Yes, of course.

--
Ruud Harmsen, https://rudhar.com

Wed, 19 Jul 2023 09:13:48 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
<grammatim@verizon.net> scribeva:

>On Wednesday, July 19, 2023 at 11:57:26?AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> Wed, 19 Jul 2023 07:24:09 -0700 (PDT): bruce bowser
>> <bruce1....@gmail.com> scribeva:
>
>> >Montfort Castle (ruins) in northern Israel?
>>
>> Montfort is a little town at biking distance from where I live. Not in
>> Israel, not in Portugal, but the the Netherlands.
>
>Maybe some Crusaders named an outpost for it. In any event no
>Crusader languages survived to the late 19th century. Unlikely
>that they left any descendants, either.

They never raped any local women, you think?

Montforte or Mons Fortis is just Latin or whatever Romance for "strong
mount". Ours is not on a mountain, though.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montfort_Castle
https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monforte_d%27Alba" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monforte_d%27Alba
https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montfoort
<https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monforte_(Portugal)>
https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monforte
https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montfort

--
Ruud Harmsen, https://rudhar.com

On 2023-07-17, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> On Sunday, July 16, 2023 at 9:42:01 PM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
>
>> In the case of Hebrew, modern Hebrew readers can understand ancient Hebrew
>> with some difficulty but those who know only ancient Hebrew would not
>> understand modern Hebrew. I don't know why; I haven't studied the matter.
>
> They think they can, but they can't, because when ben Yehuda and others
> scoured the Bible for roots they could adapt to modern circumstances,
> they discarded the ancient meanings (which pertained to a culture they
> did not know, anyway).

I like the one for electricity. It goes well with the notion that
Ezekiel had a close encounter of the 3rd kind.

--
I am at the moment writing a lengthy indictment against our
century. When my brain begins to reel from my literary labors, I make
an occasional cheese dip. ---Ignatius J Reilly

On Wednesday, July 19, 2023 at 1:18:38 PM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> Wed, 19 Jul 2023 09:10:46 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
> >On Wednesday, July 19, 2023 at 10:04:00?AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> >> Wed, 19 Jul 2023 06:45:16 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
> >> <gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
> >> >On Wednesday, July 19, 2023 at 3:39:50?AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
> >> >> On Wednesday, July 19, 2023 at 12:59:04?PM UTC+5:30, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> >> >> > Tue, 18 Jul 2023 13:06:18 -0700 (PDT): Dingbat
> >> >> > <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> scribeva:
> >
> >> >> > >There are two terms Relex and Relexify.
> >> >> > >A Relex Language
> >> >> > > <<Relex is a term of criticism saying that someone has naïvely or unreflectively
> >> >> > > imitated their native language too closely in creating a conlang.>>
> >> >> > > <https://conlang.fandom.com/wiki/Relex>
> >> >> > >But Israeli Hebrew (aka Modern Hebrew) is not intended as a conlang
> >> >> > > and any imitation of Yiddish syntax is deliberate, not naïve.
> >> >> > Really? Why?
> >> >> For them to be imitating their native Yiddish, they'd have to be
> >> >> native Yiddish speakers. As I understand it, the form of Modern
> >> >> Hebrew was dictated by a committee who didn't all have the
> >> >> same native language. Features were taken from Yiddish,
> >> >> Biblical Hebrew, Sephardic Hebrew, Arabic and a number of
> >> >> state languages of European states.
> >> >Never mind "features were taken from." Where did you get this
> >> >"committee" of non-Yiddish settlers in Palestine?
> >>
> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliezer_Ben-Yehuda
> >> «To accomplish the task, Ben-Yehuda insisted with the Committee of the
> >> Hebrew Language that, to quote the Committee records, "In order to
> >> supplement the deficiencies of the Hebrew language, the Committee
> >> coins words according to the rules of grammar and linguistic analogy
> >> from Semitic roots: Aramaic and especially from Arabic roots" (Joshua
> >> Blau, page 33).»
> >
> >What makes you think they were not all native speakers of Yiddish?
> Where did I write that that is what I think?

"a committee who didn't all have the same native language."
> Is it entirely impossible some spoke Ladino?

Hugely unlikely.

There was a Sephardic rabbi whose family had immigrated in 1803,
but a rabbi would hardly have participated in the secularization of
the sacred language.

> >"Especially from Arabic" because that was the only available Semitic
> >language that had been adapting to modern circumstances for 2000
> >years.
>
> Yes, of course.

Wed, 19 Jul 2023 11:34:28 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
<grammatim@verizon.net> scribeva:

>On Wednesday, July 19, 2023 at 1:18:38?PM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> Wed, 19 Jul 2023 09:10:46 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
>> <gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
>> >On Wednesday, July 19, 2023 at 10:04:00?AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> >> Wed, 19 Jul 2023 06:45:16 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
>> >> <gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
>> >> >On Wednesday, July 19, 2023 at 3:39:50?AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
>> >> >> On Wednesday, July 19, 2023 at 12:59:04?PM UTC+5:30, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> >> >> > Tue, 18 Jul 2023 13:06:18 -0700 (PDT): Dingbat
>> >> >> > <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> scribeva:
>> >
>> >> >> > >There are two terms Relex and Relexify.
>> >> >> > >A Relex Language
>> >> >> > > <<Relex is a term of criticism saying that someone has naïvely or unreflectively
>> >> >> > > imitated their native language too closely in creating a conlang.>>
>> >> >> > > <https://conlang.fandom.com/wiki/Relex>
>> >> >> > >But Israeli Hebrew (aka Modern Hebrew) is not intended as a conlang
>> >> >> > > and any imitation of Yiddish syntax is deliberate, not naïve.
>> >> >> > Really? Why?
>> >> >> For them to be imitating their native Yiddish, they'd have to be
>> >> >> native Yiddish speakers. As I understand it, the form of Modern
>> >> >> Hebrew was dictated by a committee who didn't all have the
>> >> >> same native language. Features were taken from Yiddish,
>> >> >> Biblical Hebrew, Sephardic Hebrew, Arabic and a number of
>> >> >> state languages of European states.
>> >> >Never mind "features were taken from." Where did you get this
>> >> >"committee" of non-Yiddish settlers in Palestine?
>> >>
>> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliezer_Ben-Yehuda
>> >> «To accomplish the task, Ben-Yehuda insisted with the Committee of the
>> >> Hebrew Language that, to quote the Committee records, "In order to
>> >> supplement the deficiencies of the Hebrew language, the Committee
>> >> coins words according to the rules of grammar and linguistic analogy
>> >> from Semitic roots: Aramaic and especially from Arabic roots" (Joshua
>> >> Blau, page 33).»
>> >
>> >What makes you think they were not all native speakers of Yiddish?
>> Where did I write that that is what I think?
>
>"a committee who didn't all have the same native language."

Dingbat wrote that, not me.
>> Is it entirely impossible some spoke Ladino?
>
>Hugely unlikely.
>
>There was a Sephardic rabbi whose family had immigrated in 1803,
>but a rabbi would hardly have participated in the secularization of
>the sacred language.

--
Ruud Harmsen, https://rudhar.com

On Thursday, July 20, 2023 at 2:10:25 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> Wed, 19 Jul 2023 11:34:28 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
> >On Wednesday, July 19, 2023 at 1:18:38?PM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> >> Wed, 19 Jul 2023 09:10:46 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
> >> <gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
> >> >On Wednesday, July 19, 2023 at 10:04:00?AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> >> >> Wed, 19 Jul 2023 06:45:16 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
> >> >> <gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
> >> >> >On Wednesday, July 19, 2023 at 3:39:50?AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
> >> >> >> On Wednesday, July 19, 2023 at 12:59:04?PM UTC+5:30, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> >> >> >> > Tue, 18 Jul 2023 13:06:18 -0700 (PDT): Dingbat
> >> >> >> > <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> scribeva:

> >> >> >> > >There are two terms Relex and Relexify.
> >> >> >> > >A Relex Language
> >> >> >> > > <<Relex is a term of criticism saying that someone has naïvely or unreflectively
> >> >> >> > > imitated their native language too closely in creating a conlang.>>
> >> >> >> > > <https://conlang.fandom.com/wiki/Relex>
> >> >> >> > >But Israeli Hebrew (aka Modern Hebrew) is not intended as a conlang
> >> >> >> > > and any imitation of Yiddish syntax is deliberate, not naïve.
> >> >> >> > Really? Why?
> >> >> >> For them to be imitating their native Yiddish, they'd have to be
> >> >> >> native Yiddish speakers. As I understand it, the form of Modern
> >> >> >> Hebrew was dictated by a committee who didn't all have the
> >> >> >> same native language. Features were taken from Yiddish,
> >> >> >> Biblical Hebrew, Sephardic Hebrew, Arabic and a number of
> >> >> >> state languages of European states.
> >> >> >Never mind "features were taken from." Where did you get this
> >> >> >"committee" of non-Yiddish settlers in Palestine?
> >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliezer_Ben-Yehuda
> >> >> «To accomplish the task, Ben-Yehuda insisted with the Committee of the
> >> >> Hebrew Language that, to quote the Committee records, "In order to
> >> >> supplement the deficiencies of the Hebrew language, the Committee
> >> >> coins words according to the rules of grammar and linguistic analogy
> >> >> from Semitic roots: Aramaic and especially from Arabic roots" (Joshua
> >> >> Blau, page 33).»
> >> >What makes you think they were not all native speakers of Yiddish?
> >> Where did I write that that is what I think?
> >"a committee who didn't all have the same native language."
>
> Dingbat wrote that, not me.

Ranjit asked the question you quoted? Then I was answering his
question, not you.

Pay attention to the chevrons.

I see you have no response to what I said replying to your comment.

> >> Is it entirely impossible some spoke Ladino?
> >Hugely unlikely.
> >There was a Sephardic rabbi whose family had immigrated in 1803,
> >but a rabbi would hardly have participated in the secularization of
> >the sacred language

On Wednesday, July 19, 2023 at 11:57:26 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> Wed, 19 Jul 2023 07:24:09 -0700 (PDT): bruce bowser
> <bruce1....@gmail.com> scribeva:
> >Montfort Castle (ruins) in northern Israel?
> Montfort is a little town at biking distance from where I live. Not in
> Israel, not in Portugal, but the the Netherlands.

Still, I did not mention a town. I mentioned the ruins of a castle in Israel. Its name was Montfort.
[Stadig, Jeg nævnte ikke en by. Jeg nævnte ruinerne af et slot i Israel. Dens navn var montfort]

On Thursday, July 20, 2023 at 11:27:49 AM UTC-4, bruce bowser wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 19, 2023 at 11:57:26 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> > Wed, 19 Jul 2023 07:24:09 -0700 (PDT): bruce bowser
> > <bruce1....@gmail.com> scribeva:
> > >Montfort Castle (ruins) in northern Israel?
> > Montfort is a little town at biking distance from where I live. Not in
> > Israel, not in Portugal, but the the Netherlands.
> Still, I did not mention a town. I mentioned the ruins of a castle in Israel. Its name was Montfort.
> [Stadig, Jeg nævnte ikke en by. Jeg nævnte ruinerne af et slot i Israel. Dens navn var montfort]

[Dens navn var montfort. Besøg dette websted for måske mere information]
-- https://se.dreamstime.com/arkivfoto-den-montfort-slotten-f%C3%B6rd%C3%A4rvar-i-israel-image78405559

Thu, 20 Jul 2023 07:58:58 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
<grammatim@verizon.net> scribeva:

>On Thursday, July 20, 2023 at 2:10:25?AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> Wed, 19 Jul 2023 11:34:28 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
>> <gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
>> >On Wednesday, July 19, 2023 at 1:18:38?PM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> >> Wed, 19 Jul 2023 09:10:46 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
>> >> <gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
>> >> >On Wednesday, July 19, 2023 at 10:04:00?AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> >> >> Wed, 19 Jul 2023 06:45:16 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
>> >> >> <gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
>> >> >> >On Wednesday, July 19, 2023 at 3:39:50?AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
>> >> >> >> On Wednesday, July 19, 2023 at 12:59:04?PM UTC+5:30, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> >> >> >> > Tue, 18 Jul 2023 13:06:18 -0700 (PDT): Dingbat
>> >> >> >> > <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> scribeva:
>
>> >> >> >> > >There are two terms Relex and Relexify.
>> >> >> >> > >A Relex Language
>> >> >> >> > > <<Relex is a term of criticism saying that someone has naïvely or unreflectively
>> >> >> >> > > imitated their native language too closely in creating a conlang.>>
>> >> >> >> > > <https://conlang.fandom.com/wiki/Relex>
>> >> >> >> > >But Israeli Hebrew (aka Modern Hebrew) is not intended as a conlang
>> >> >> >> > > and any imitation of Yiddish syntax is deliberate, not naïve.
>> >> >> >> > Really? Why?
>> >> >> >> For them to be imitating their native Yiddish, they'd have to be
>> >> >> >> native Yiddish speakers. As I understand it, the form of Modern
>> >> >> >> Hebrew was dictated by a committee who didn't all have the
>> >> >> >> same native language. Features were taken from Yiddish,
>> >> >> >> Biblical Hebrew, Sephardic Hebrew, Arabic and a number of
>> >> >> >> state languages of European states.
>> >> >> >Never mind "features were taken from." Where did you get this
>> >> >> >"committee" of non-Yiddish settlers in Palestine?
>> >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliezer_Ben-Yehuda
>> >> >> «To accomplish the task, Ben-Yehuda insisted with the Committee of the
>> >> >> Hebrew Language that, to quote the Committee records, "In order to
>> >> >> supplement the deficiencies of the Hebrew language, the Committee
>> >> >> coins words according to the rules of grammar and linguistic analogy
>> >> >> from Semitic roots: Aramaic and especially from Arabic roots" (Joshua
>> >> >> Blau, page 33).»
>> >> >What makes you think they were not all native speakers of Yiddish?
>> >> Where did I write that that is what I think?
>> >"a committee who didn't all have the same native language."
>>
>> Dingbat wrote that, not me.
>
>Ranjit asked the question you quoted? Then I was answering his
>question, not you.
>
>Pay attention to the chevrons.

No, you should.

>I see you have no response to what I said replying to your comment.
>
>> >> Is it entirely impossible some spoke Ladino?
>> >Hugely unlikely.
>> >There was a Sephardic rabbi whose family had immigrated in 1803,
>> >but a rabbi would hardly have participated in the secularization of
>> >the sacred language

--
Ruud Harmsen, https://rudhar.com

Thu, 20 Jul 2023 08:27:48 -0700 (PDT): bruce bowser
<bruce1.9bowser@gmail.com> scribeva:

>On Wednesday, July 19, 2023 at 11:57:26?AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> Wed, 19 Jul 2023 07:24:09 -0700 (PDT): bruce bowser
>> <bruce1....@gmail.com> scribeva:
>> >Montfort Castle (ruins) in northern Israel?
>> Montfort is a little town at biking distance from where I live. Not in
>> Israel, not in Portugal, but the the Netherlands.
>
>Still, I did not mention a town. I mentioned the ruins of a castle in Israel. Its name was Montfort.

Yes. So what? I did, though.

>[Stadig, Jeg nævnte ikke en by. Jeg nævnte ruinerne af et slot i Israel. Dens navn var montfort]

--
Ruud Harmsen, https://rudhar.com

On Thursday, July 20, 2023 at 7:12:33 PM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> Thu, 20 Jul 2023 07:58:58 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:

> >Pay attention to the chevrons.
>
> No, you should.

You have no scruples about replying maybe four times to one message.
If I can reply to two messages at once, why not? The senders are clearly
identified.

> >I see you have no response to what I said replying to your comment.

On Wednesday, July 19, 2023 at 7:15:17 PM UTC+5:30, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 19, 2023 at 3:39:50 AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
> > On Wednesday, July 19, 2023 at 12:59:04 PM UTC+5:30, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> > > Tue, 18 Jul 2023 13:06:18 -0700 (PDT): Dingbat
> > > <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> scribeva:
> > > >There are two terms Relex and Relexify.
>
> > > >A Relex Language
> > > > <<Relex is a term of criticism saying that someone has naïvely or unreflectively
> > > > imitated their native language too closely in creating a conlang.>>
> > > > <https://conlang.fandom.com/wiki/Relex>
> > > >But Israeli Hebrew (aka Modern Hebrew) is not intended as a conlang
> > > > and any imitation of Yiddish syntax is deliberate, not naïve.
> > > Really? Why?
> > >
> > For them to be imitating their native Yiddish, they'd have to be
> > native Yiddish speakers. As I understand it, the form of Modern
> > Hebrew was dictated by a committee who didn't all have the
> > same native language. Features were taken from Yiddish,
> > Biblical Hebrew, Sephardic Hebrew, Arabic and a number of
> > state languages of European states.
> Never mind "features were taken from." Where did you get this
> "committee" of non-Yiddish settlers in Palestine?

1) Normative pronunciation of Modern Hebrew was decided to be
Sephardic. I read that. Who decided that? I don't know but it seems
like unlikely that Ashkenazis decided it. So, Sephardim must have
been involved in the decision. The pronunciation might since have
naturally become Ashkenazi to some extenti.

2) An article on Modern Hebrew said: <<Much has been made of
European features in Modern Hebrew. Arabic has such features
in greater measure.>> No examples were given.

3) This user of Biblical Hebrew who later mastered Modern Hebrew
finds the two similar which would be unlikely if Modern Hebrew were
a relexified Yiddish:

<<When I knew Biblical Hebrew quite well, I came to Israel and learned
Modern Hebrew, and I found it quite similar. I was able to use what I
had, add some modern words and become accustomed to a few
simplifications in grammar. In six months I had adapted my Biblical
Hebrew to enable me to speak Modern Hebrew, without taking any
course.>>
<https://qr.ae/pKXVqt>

Mon, 18 Sep 2023 23:28:40 -0700 (PDT): Dingbat
<ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com> scribeva:

>On Thursday, July 20, 2023 at 8:57:49?PM UTC+5:30, bruce bowser wrote:
>> On Wednesday, July 19, 2023 at 11:57:26?AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> > Wed, 19 Jul 2023 07:24:09 -0700 (PDT): bruce bowser
>> > <bruce1....@gmail.com> scribeva:
>> > >Montfort Castle (ruins) in northern Israel?
>> > Montfort is a little town at biking distance from where I live. Not in
>> > Israel, not in Portugal, but the the Netherlands.
>> Still, I did not mention a town. I mentioned the ruins of a castle in Israel. Its name was Montfort.
>> [Stadig, Jeg nævnte ikke en by. Jeg nævnte ruinerne af et slot i Israel. Dens navn var montfort]
>
>FWIW, Louis de Montfort was a Frenchman:
><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montfort_Brothers_of_St._Gabriel?
>
>French and Breton: habitational name from any of numerous places called Montfort from Old French
> mont 'hill' (see Mont ) + fort 'strong impregnable' (from Latin fortis). This surname is by far most
> common in Brittany.
><https://www.google.com/search?q=monfort+name+origin>
>
>Monforts in the UK said to be of Norman origin
><https://www.houseofnames.com/monfort-family-crest>
>
>French and Dutch origins seem in contradistinction:
> French and Breton: variant of Monfort
> Altered form of Dutch Montfoort: habitational name from Montfoort in Utrecht. It is a cognate of 1
> above (see Monfort ) and also its altered form (or perhaps vice versa). English (of Norman origin):
> very rare variant of Mountford a cognate of 1 above.
><https://www.ancestry.com/name-origin?surname=monfort>
>
>Does Dutch Montfoort bear any relation to French Montfort?

Same etymology, otherwise no relation, I would think.

>Why is the place you mention in Nederland spelled Montfort and not Montfoort?

Spelling was much more variable in the olden days.
Doesn't make much difference for the pronunciation, though some.
We have Amersfoort, and fort = castle, stronghold.
--
Ruud Harmsen, https://rudhar.com

Op 20/09/2023 om 12:12 schreef Ruud Harmsen:
> Mon, 18 Sep 2023 23:28:40 -0700 (PDT): Dingbat

>> Does Dutch Montfoort bear any relation to French Montfort?
>
> Same etymology, otherwise no relation, I would think.
>
>> Why is the place you mention in Nederland spelled Montfort and not Montfoort?
>
> Spelling was much more variable in the olden days.
> Doesn't make much difference for the pronunciation, though some.
> We have Amersfoort, and fort = castle, stronghold.

Wrong example. Amersfoort ~ voorde ~ fjord (eg, Vilvoorde in Belgium).
https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amersfoort#Naam

Lat. fortis < oLat. forctis "unknown etyumology". Some speculate ~
"berg" words.
https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=fort

--
guido wugi

Op 20/09/2023 om 22:41 schreef wugi:

> Wrong example. Amersfoort ~ voorde ~ fjord (eg, Vilvoorde in Belgium).
> https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amersfoort#Naam

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_(crossing)
Compare E. Oxford... and D. Frankfurt...

https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voorde_(doorwaadbare_plaats)
also -drecht, -trecht < L. traiectum
(and wad ~ L. vadum, quo vadis?:)

--
guido wugi

Wed, 20 Sep 2023 22:41:59 +0200: wugi <wugi@brol.invalid> scribeva:

>Op 20/09/2023 om 12:12 schreef Ruud Harmsen:
>> Mon, 18 Sep 2023 23:28:40 -0700 (PDT): Dingbat
>
>>> Does Dutch Montfoort bear any relation to French Montfort?
>>
>> Same etymology, otherwise no relation, I would think.
>>
>>> Why is the place you mention in Nederland spelled Montfort and not Montfoort?
>>
>> Spelling was much more variable in the olden days.
>> Doesn't make much difference for the pronunciation, though some.
>> We have Amersfoort, and fort = castle, stronghold.
>
>Wrong example. Amersfoort ~ voorde ~ fjord (eg, Vilvoorde in Belgium).
>https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amersfoort#Naam

Ja, klopt. Dacht ik ook. Te laat.

>Lat. fortis < oLat. forctis "unknown etyumology". Some speculate ~
>"berg" words.
>https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=fort

Wed, 20 Sep 2023 22:53:40 +0200: wugi <wugi@brol.invalid> scribeva:

>Op 20/09/2023 om 22:41 schreef wugi:
>
>> Wrong example. Amersfoort ~ voorde ~ fjord (eg, Vilvoorde in Belgium).
>> https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amersfoort#Naam
>
><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_(crossing)>
>Compare E. Oxford... and D. Frankfurt...
>
><https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voorde_(doorwaadbare_plaats)>
>also -drecht, -trecht < L. traiectum
>(and wad ~ L. vadum, quo vadis?:)

Certainly. In Dutch, I sometimes call my car a Doorwaarbare Plaats
Feest. Ford Fiesta.