I had maps loaded, they went away. Now, to load a map again, it stops
the program if I say no to "Allow access to your contacts".

Why should it require my contacts?

Samsung S5

Bob F wrote on 06.07.2021 14:10
> I had maps loaded, they went away. Now, to load a map again, it stops
> the program if I say no to "Allow access to your contacts".
> Why should it require my contacts?
> Samsung S5

I have a Samsung on Android 11 which I checked for Google Maps' permissions.
Android11Settings > Apps > Your apps > Maps > Permissions >
Location = Only while app is in use
Camera = Denied
*Contacts = Denied*
Microphone = Denied
Physical activity = Denied
Storage = Denied
Remove permissions if app isn't used = on

At the top right I hit the 3dots and then "all permissions" which showed
details _if_ the permissions were allowed (mine weren't allowed) which are
*read your contacts*
Allows the app to read data about your contacts stored on your phone.
Apps will also have access to the accounts on your phone that have created
contacts. This may include accounts created by apps you have installed.
This permission allows apps to save your contact data, and malicious apps
may share contact data without your knowledge.

Seems to me a few things we can infer from your situation and mine.
1. Google Maps _does_ attempt to access your contacts (your experience)
2. Google Maps works just fine if you _deny_ that access (my experience)

My recommendation?
Deny all access save for location while the Maps app is in use.

Also never (ever!) start Location from the Google Maps prompt.
Always start location _outside_ of the Google Maps app itself!!!!!
(Google is sneaky in that they turn on other stuff from that prompt!)

paul wrote on 06.07.2021 20:49
> Seems to me a few things we can infer from your situation and mine.
> 1. Google Maps _does_ attempt to access your contacts (your experience)
> 2. Google Maps works just fine if you _deny_ that access (my experience)

I should clarify my experience by saying I do not set my Android operating
system to a Google Account so when I start up Google Maps, it doesn't know
who I am per se and it works just fine for routing & traffic & online maps.

In my case, I don't _save_ Google Maps (because I use offline maps instead,
where I use Google Maps mainly for accurate address lookup, and sometimes
for traffic, although there are many just-as-good-or-better government &
private sources of real-time traffic nowadays, such as 511.org & sigalert.

Once I have an accurate address lookup, _any_ map program will route me,
which keeps my real-time location (& contacts) out of Google's greedy paws.

In your case, Google Maps probably knows who you are so we need to ask
someone else (who has a Google Account set on the phone) if they can use
Google Maps without providing Google Maps with access to their contacts.

To test this out further for you, I just tried to _save_ a Google Map from
the Google Map app, and it wouldn't let me without creating a new account.

As for the answer to your question of _why_ Google Maps wants to upload your
contacts, bear in mind you can't stop the GMail app from doing the same
thing (I tried anyway, and failed, so I stopped using the Gmail app).

I suspect the answer is Google wants your contacts so badly they'll force
you to give them to them even though, if you use GMail, Google _already_ has
them all, but I don't know why Google Maps, per se, needs contacts to work.

BTW, it's easy to set up your phone _without_ contacts, which we've
discussed in gory detail in the past, since only a few apps need contacts.

If you choose those few apps wisely (e.g., your dialer & SMS & calendar
apps), then those apps will import any csv/vcard file you feed them.

That's what I do. It works fine for me. It's designed for privacy.
a. I wipe out the sqlite default Android contacts database
b. That way, any app that tries to get my contacts, gets nothing
c. Then I set as my default only apps that import contacts on their own

But my setup isn't typical as I use an intelligent design.
So others will have to test for you if Google Maps works without contacts.

Bob F <bobnospam@gmail.com> wrote:

> I had maps loaded, they went away. Now, to load a map again, it stops
> the program if I say no to "Allow access to your contacts".
>
> Why should it require my contacts?
>
> Samsung S5

Google Maps can show your contacts on a map. I would think that would
only be possible if the contacts have addresses. I have some contacts
that are just phone number and e-mail address, no postal address.

https://support.google.com/maps/answer/3131570

Showing your Google Contacts in Google Maps was added back in 2016; see:

https://www.androidpolice.com/2016/04/27/google-maps-v9-25-1-adds-batch-photo-submission-puts-contact-addresses-in-your-places-and-gives-suggested-searches-on-location-pages-apk-download/

To not show that correlated info, I think you have to go into your
Google account to disable Web & App Activity.

VanguardLH wrote on 06.07.2021 21:12
> Google Maps can show your contacts on a map.

Thanks for finding that as I was wondering why ever since the OP asked.
It's wonderful when adults add value to the technical topics on this ng.

> https://support.google.com/maps/answer/3131570
"You can't add or hide contacts on the map using your computer."

> Showing your Google Contacts in Google Maps was added back in 2016; see:
> https://www.androidpolice.com/2016/04/27/google-maps-v9-25-1-adds-batch-photo-submission-puts-contact-addresses-in-your-places-and-gives-suggested-searches-on-location-pages-apk-download/

Interesting.
Thanks for adding value to the topic, which is what we're here for.

"Contact addresses appear in Your places screen and on maps."
<https://www.androidpolice.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/nexus2cee_2016-04-27-11.16.52-1.png>

> To not show that correlated info, I think you have to go into your
> Google account to disable Web & App Activity.
"Web and App Activity must be turned on for Google Maps
to show your contacts in search results."
<https://support.google.com/websearch/answer/54068>

Thanks for that update as I don't use the default contacts sqlite database,
nor do I have a google account set up on my phone, so I could only guess at
why Google would have wanted access to your contacts in the Maps app.

BTW, to add further value, I tried to downgrade my Google Maps app to the
original version, which, for Android 11 on my Samsung is version 10.57.1.

This means you can't even downgrade your way out of this 'feature' if you
have a relatively new phone (mine is only a couple of months old).

On 7/6/2021 12:03 PM, paul wrote:
> paul wrote on 06.07.2021 20:49
>> Seems to me a few things we can infer from your situation and mine.
>> 1. Google Maps _does_ attempt to access your contacts (your experience)
>> 2. Google Maps works just fine if you _deny_ that access (my experience)

I enabled it to access my contacts, and I still cannot load offline
maps. It is now asking me to login to google maps. It never did that before.

>
> I should clarify my experience by saying I do not set my Android operating
> system to a Google Account so when I start up Google Maps, it doesn't know
> who I am per se and it works just fine for routing & traffic & online maps.

Me either. I use k9 for my email, and have no accounts in Gmail or Email
apps built into Android 6 installed.

>
> In my case, I don't _save_ Google Maps (because I use offline maps instead,
> where I use Google Maps mainly for accurate address lookup, and sometimes
> for traffic, although there are many just-as-good-or-better government &
> private sources of real-time traffic nowadays, such as 511.org & sigalert.

Are those mapping apps? They seem to be local to N. CA
>
> Once I have an accurate address lookup, _any_ map program will route me,
> which keeps my real-time location (& contacts) out of Google's greedy paws.

Can you recommend map programs? I tried a few in the past with very poor
results.

>
> In your case, Google Maps probably knows who you are so we need to ask
> someone else (who has a Google Account set on the phone) if they can use
> Google Maps without providing Google Maps with access to their contacts.

It claims I have to login. What does it mean? It gives me a box say
"sign in to download offline areas". If I tap Sign in, It goes to a box
saying + add account. If I click that the box goes away leaving the
previous page.

>
> To test this out further for you, I just tried to _save_ a Google Map from
> the Google Map app, and it wouldn't let me without creating a new account.
>
> As for the answer to your question of _why_ Google Maps wants to upload your
> contacts, bear in mind you can't stop the GMail app from doing the same
> thing (I tried anyway, and failed, so I stopped using the Gmail app).

I have not used it for a couple of phone replacements.

>
> I suspect the answer is Google wants your contacts so badly they'll force
> you to give them to them even though, if you use GMail, Google _already_ has
> them all, but I don't know why Google Maps, per se, needs contacts to work.
>
> BTW, it's easy to set up your phone _without_ contacts, which we've
> discussed in gory detail in the past, since only a few apps need contacts.
>
> If you choose those few apps wisely (e.g., your dialer & SMS & calendar
> apps), then those apps will import any csv/vcard file you feed them.
>
> That's what I do. It works fine for me. It's designed for privacy.
> a. I wipe out the sqlite default Android contacts database
> b. That way, any app that tries to get my contacts, gets nothing
> c. Then I set as my default only apps that import contacts on their own
>
> But my setup isn't typical as I use an intelligent design.
> So others will have to test for you if Google Maps works without contacts.
>

If you can recommend a better mapping app, I would appreciate it.

On 7/6/2021 2:12 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
> Bob F <bobnospam@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I had maps loaded, they went away. Now, to load a map again, it stops
>> the program if I say no to "Allow access to your contacts".
>>
>> Why should it require my contacts?
>>
>> Samsung S5
>
> Google Maps can show your contacts on a map. I would think that would
> only be possible if the contacts have addresses. I have some contacts
> that are just phone number and e-mail address, no postal address.

Virtually all of mine are that way.

>
> https://support.google.com/maps/answer/3131570
>
> Showing your Google Contacts in Google Maps was added back in 2016; see:
>
> https://www.androidpolice.com/2016/04/27/google-maps-v9-25-1-adds-batch-photo-submission-puts-contact-addresses-in-your-places-and-gives-suggested-searches-on-location-pages-apk-download/

I've never seen it.

>
> To not show that correlated info, I think you have to go into your
> Google account to disable Web & App Activity.
>

Bob F wrote on 06.07.2021 22:31
> I enabled it to access my contacts, and I still cannot load offline
> maps. It is now asking me to login to google maps. It never did that before.

Thank you for that additional information as we all help each other to
figure out what's really going on here.

Each of us tries to add value (save for the trolls like Carlos who can't).

I can tell you that, over the years, the Android Google Maps app has
vacillated between _requiring_ a login just to work, and not, and also
between requiring a login just to save maps, and not.

So I believe your datapoint of a login being required to load/save offline
maps.

>> I should clarify my experience by saying I do not set my Android operating
>> system to a Google Account so when I start up Google Maps, it doesn't know
>> who I am per se and it works just fine for routing & traffic & online maps.
>
> Me either. I use k9 for my email, and have no accounts in Gmail or Email
> apps built into Android 6 installed.

Oh. I'm surprised. Most people, as you know, blindly set Android to a Google
Account (seemingly without even thinking of the privacy consequences).

As I said above, sometimes the Android Google Maps has required a login just
to work or just to save maps, and sometimes it doesn't. It's up to Google.

>> In my case, I don't _save_ Google Maps (because I use offline maps instead,
>> where I use Google Maps mainly for accurate address lookup, and sometimes
>> for traffic, although there are many just-as-good-or-better government &
>> private sources of real-time traffic nowadays, such as 511.org & sigalert.
>
> Are those mapping apps? They seem to be local to N. CA

What Google Maps is great for is accurate address lookup, right?
No other map I've ever tested has as accurate an address lookup.
So _that_ is what I use Google Maps for (although you can do the _same_ with
any web browser set to the location of your choice in "maps.google.com").

With either method (the Maps app or a web browser set to maps.google.com),
once you have an accurate set of coordinates to any address, you can ditch
Google Maps to use any offline map application (of which there are plenty).

It used to be that you didn't even need Google Maps initially for the
address lookup, but Google killed the wonderful "addressToGps" app long ago.

Once you have the address, what else does Google Maps provide you?
Traffic, right?

Well, it turns out _plenty_ of local resources provide online traffic.
Last I looked, it seemed almost everywhere they had local traffic maps.

We have an entire thread on this, so my point is that it is _not_ local to
just me; these traffic apps abound (there must be thousands of them).

You just need to find one for wherever it is you are driving.

>> Once I have an accurate address lookup, _any_ map program will route me,
>> which keeps my real-time location (& contacts) out of Google's greedy paws.
>
> Can you recommend map programs? I tried a few in the past with very poor
> results.

I've written in the past entire reviews of all the possible free maps apps
for Android and for iOS. They're all different. So preferences vary.

Personally, the two I use the most are OSMAnd~ (not OSMAnd+) & Navigator.
https://f-droid.org/en/packages/net.osmand.plus/
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.mapfactor.navigator

I noticed that this recent version of Navigator has ads so you might want to
find an older version (which is why I advise everyone to automatically save
_all_ your app APKs at the very time you download them off of Google Play!).

>> In your case, Google Maps probably knows who you are so we need to ask
>> someone else (who has a Google Account set on the phone) if they can use
>> Google Maps without providing Google Maps with access to their contacts.
>
> It claims I have to login. What does it mean? It gives me a box say
> "sign in to download offline areas". If I tap Sign in, It goes to a box
> saying + add account. If I click that the box goes away leaving the
> previous page.

As I said, sometimes the Google Maps app _requires_ a download just to work,
and sometimes it requires a download just to save offline maps. At this
time, in my tests anyway, the Google Maps app did _not_ require a login to
work, but it did require a login to save offline maps.

Luckily, offline maps aren't all that useful (IMHO) in the Google Maps app
since you can use any set of free offline maps which are just as good for
the purpose of routing to any known set of coordinates.

What Google Maps is excellent at, IMHO, is obtaining that set of coordinates
from just any old address anywhere in the world. But once you have those
coordinates pasted into your clipboard, you don't need Google Maps except
for traffic (which, as I noted, you can get by thousands of other free
apps).

>> To test this out further for you, I just tried to _save_ a Google Map from
>> the Google Map app, and it wouldn't let me without creating a new account.
>>
>> As for the answer to your question of _why_ Google Maps wants to upload your
>> contacts, bear in mind you can't stop the GMail app from doing the same
>> thing (I tried anyway, and failed, so I stopped using the Gmail app).
>
> I have not used it for a couple of phone replacements.

Me neither. The Gmail app on Android insists on stealing your contacts last
I checked, and, worse, it insists on _creating_ an account on your device.

Suffice to say I don't use the GMail app on an Android phone either & as we
noted in a recent thread, there are _plenty_ of free ad free MUAs out there.
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.deependhulla.opemail
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.easilydo.mail
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.fsck.k9
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.ninefolders.hd3
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.readdle.spark
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.samsung.android.email.provider
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.syntomo.email
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.trtf.blue
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.zoho.mail
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=de.tutao.tutanota
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=eu.faircode.email
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=me.bluemail.mail

>> But my setup isn't typical as I use an intelligent design.
>> So others will have to test for you if Google Maps works without contacts.
>>
>
> If you can recommend a better mapping app, I would appreciate it.

I mostly use an older ad-free version of MapFactor Navigator.

However, many people recommend OSMAnd~ which you can find on F-Droid.
It's almost exactly the same as the OSMAnd+ on Google Play.
https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android/c/43g_mwUy964

I have tested them all, and those are the two I like best,
but I admit _many_ offline map apps work almost as well as those do.
https://techviral.net/best-offline-gps-navigation-apps/
https://techigem.com/offline-maps-apps/
https://thedroidguy.com/best-offline-gps-map-apps-for-android-1079555
https://www.nextpit.com/best-free-offline-map-apps
https://www.geckoandfly.com/24490/offline-gps-navigation-apps-driving/
etc.

In summary, I'm happy that you are adding value to Usenet, which is what we
all, as intelligent adults, should be striving to add in every post.

Bob F <bobnospam@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 7/6/2021 2:12 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
>> Bob F <bobnospam@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I had maps loaded, they went away. Now, to load a map again, it stops
>>> the program if I say no to "Allow access to your contacts".
>>>
>>> Why should it require my contacts?
>>>
>>> Samsung S5
>>
>> Google Maps can show your contacts on a map. I would think that would
>> only be possible if the contacts have addresses. I have some contacts
>> that are just phone number and e-mail address, no postal address.
>
> Virtually all of mine are that way.
>
>>
>> https://support.google.com/maps/answer/3131570
>>
>> Showing your Google Contacts in Google Maps was added back in 2016; see:
>>
>> https://www.androidpolice.com/2016/04/27/google-maps-v9-25-1-adds-batch-photo-submission-puts-contact-addresses-in-your-places-and-gives-suggested-searches-on-location-pages-apk-download/
>
> I've never seen it.
>
>>
>> To not show that correlated info, I think you have to go into your
>> Google account to disable Web & App Activity.
>>

You said your offline maps "went away". Does that mean you deleted
them, or they expired? If they just expired, you cannot update them?

https://support.google.com/maps/answer/6291838/
....
2. Make sure you're connected to the internet and signed in to Google
Maps.
....

You would need a Google account to sign-in. I can see Google's view
that they want to provide offline maps to their users, not to everyone
even if not a Google user. Downloads cost money in bandwidth and
server-side service processing. Why should they provide those resources
to those who are not their users?

I can see Google requiring a Google account for someone to use their
service when using Google's app. The Here WeGo map app doesn't require
a Google account, because they do NOT use Google's services and
bandwidth to download map data either on-demand or for offline maps.
Here was Nokia's HERE Maps, the same source used by head units in cars.
Map data comes from HERE, not Google.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Here_WeGo

Whosever maps services, bandwidth, and database you use is who's rule
you have to follow. Google wants Google users to use Google's services,
and Google users are identified via accounts. HERE doesn't require
accounts, but they could change their requirements whenever they like.
TomTom requires a subscription beyond the limited 50 miles/month quota
(which don't rollover unused miles into the next month, so they expire
at the end of the month). Their service, their resources, their rules,
and they can change their rules whenever they want (usually declared in
their Terms of Service policies).

Don't use the Google Maps apps if you don't like Google's requirements
or the behavior of their map app. While I do use the Google Maps app, I
also use the HERE maps app which lets me download offline map data by
region (city, state, country) rather than have me use their online
service to define a region and then download the map data for the
user-specified region. I have an SD card, so that is where I store the
offline map data for both map apps. I like HERE's regional boundaries
for offline maps since I could easily travel outside the user-specified
region in the Google Maps app. HERE's offline maps can cover far larger
areas than what Google lets you pre-select.

VanguardLH wrote on 07.07.2021 06:01

> While I do use the Google Maps app, I
> also use the HERE maps app which lets me download offline map data

I mostly use an older ad-free version of MapFactor Navigator.
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.mapfactor.navigator

However, many people recommend OSMAnd~ which you can find on F-Droid.
https://f-droid.org/en/packages/net.osmand.plus/

F-Droid OSMAnd~ is almost exactly the same as the OSMAnd+ on Google Play.
https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android/c/43g_mwUy964

I have tested them all, and those are the two I like best,
but I admit _many_ offline map apps work almost as well as those do.

For example, this is just the first hit of a search run today
which contains my two favorites plus your favorite it seems.
https://techviral.net/best-offline-gps-navigation-apps/

1. Google Maps
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.google.android.apps.maps

2. Maps.ME
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.mapswithme.maps.pro

3. MapFactor Navigator
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.mapfactor.navigator

4. Here WeGo
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.here.app.maps

5. Genius Maps
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=hr.mireo.arthur

6. Sygic
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.sygic.aura

7. OSMAnd
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=net.osmand

8. CoPilot
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.alk.copilot.mapviewer

9. Offline GPS
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.gps.navigation.maps.route.directions

10. Offline Map Navigation
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.virtualmaze.offlinemapnavigationtracker

But there are _plenty_ of other free offline maps & routing Android apps.

In summary, I'm happy that you are adding value to Usenet, which is what we
all, as intelligent adults, should be striving to add in every post.

paul <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:

> VanguardLH wrote
>
>> While I do use the Google Maps app, I also use the HERE maps app
>> which lets me download offline map data
>
> I mostly use an older ad-free version of MapFactor Navigator.
> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.mapfactor.navigator
>
> However, many people recommend OSMAnd~ which you can find on F-Droid.
> https://f-droid.org/en/packages/net.osmand.plus/

There are map apps that use OpenStreet (https://www.openstreetmap.org/)
map database; however, that is a peer community updating the database,
so it is inaccurate. Updates depend on someone using an OpenStreet map
app, and issuing updates, so the user would have to be motivated to
issue an update, be in a position to send an update (so, like, not when
they're driving a car), and be accurate. However, most map app users
are just users, not database maintainers.

Osmand is one of those map apps using OpenStreet map data, so I'd
probably not trust it. I've seen areas, even in cities, that don't get
updated for many years just because no one using the OpenStreet map app
bothers to issue updates, and there were changes in those several years
from the last update.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Is_OSM_up-to-date
Answer: No. Too many areas never or rarely get updated by the users.
Typically the satellite images are over 5 years old.

I remember when trialing an OpenStreets map app (don't remember the
name) that it still reported a library was in its old location despite
the library moved a mile away 3 years before. It showed businesses that
had closed several years before. Yeah, I could've issued updates for
every inaccuracy that I found, but I wasn't so inclined at the time,
plus I'd be issuing more updates than in using their map data. And I
cannot do anything about their delays and inability to have revenue to
get recent satellite images.

No thanks to community-driven map data. Imagine the chaos with
community-driven anti-virus software. Those web browser add-ons that
show site rankings (SiteAdvisor) are worthless, because they rating less
than 1% of the registered and sited domains, are susceptible to boobs or
those invested in vendettas against a site, and are out of date (despite
a site went "good", they are listed as "bad" for many months or years
later).

> ...
> 2. Maps.ME
> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.mapswithme.maps.pro

Adware (contains ads). Another OpenStreet map app. No thanks.

> 3. MapFactor Navigator
> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.mapfactor.navigator

Adware (contains ads, offers in-app purchases).

> 4. Here WeGo
> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.here.app.maps

Adware (contains ads, but I've not seen any). They have their own map
data. Not Google map data. Not OpenStreet "community" map data.

<didn't bother to check the rest in your list as to which use whose map
database, and if adware or not>

VanguardLH wrote on 07.07.2021 15:11
> There are map apps that use OpenStreet (https://www.openstreetmap.org/)
> map database; however, that is a peer community updating the database,
> so it is inaccurate.

Thank you for adding your point of view to this dicussion as I am learning a
lot from you and from those others who strive to add value to discussions).

We should strive to make a point that all maps are inherently "inaccurate."
Never has a map _ever_ been made which has _not_ been "inaccurate" somehow.
<https://maps.usgs.gov/map/>

What you mean, most likely is that the Google Maps are more accurate than
OSM maps are. And that's almost certainly true in my humblest of opinions.

But, given _all_ maps are inaccurate - what matters is this question only:
Q: Are they accurate enough?

I've used _every_ free offline map program Vanguard. Every single one.
(I've written about it _many_ times so this is simply empirical evidence.)

In my humblest of opinions, for the areas I drive, the OSM maps are accurate
enough for paved roads (as backcountry is a completely different story.)
<https://www.usgs.gov/products/maps/topo-maps>
<https://osmand.net/features/online-maps-plugin>

> Updates depend on someone using an OpenStreet map
> app, and issuing updates, so the user would have to be motivated to
> issue an update, be in a position to send an update (so, like, not when
> they're driving a car), and be accurate. However, most map app users
> are just users, not database maintainers.

True. I've been able to get Google to update their maps, and, in fact, I
wrote about my experience in the past, where, as I recall, it took Google
only about a month to fix the Google Map errors I had provided them.

It all had to be done over the web though as you'll never get them on the
phone (ask me how I know this, and bear in mind, I'm persistent).

I've never even bothered to fix the OSM maps, and, in fact, there's a
certain minor but obvious error in my area that I always zoom into whenever
I'm testing any map program where I can tell, from the existence of that
error, that they're using the OSM maps.

> Osmand is one of those map apps using OpenStreet map data, so I'd
> probably not trust it. I've seen areas, even in cities, that don't get
> updated for many years just because no one using the OpenStreet map app
> bothers to issue updates, and there were changes in those several years
> from the last update.

It's good that you're bringing out your point of view so we can learn.

You are stating facts that I don't think anyone would disagree with.
I think most of us would agree that Google Map accuracy is fantastic.

For you, in the areas you care about, OSM accuracy isn't good enough.
For me, in the areas I care about, OSM accuracy is good enough (for me).

> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Is_OSM_up-to-date
> Answer: No. Too many areas never or rarely get updated by the users.
> Typically the satellite images are over 5 years old.

Again, it's good to get your point of view which is different in some ways.

For me, deep in the Santa Cruz Mountains of California, and for me, in the
Silicon Valley and San Francisco Bay Area, the OSM map accuracy, even if it
were truly five years old, is "good enough" accuracy for what I need it for.

Apparently for you, OSM map accuracy is _not_ good enough and that's OK.
Trust me, I know the lack of accuracy on OSM topographical maps, which is
why the use model is important for what you're intending to use OSM maps
for.

For me, I use mostly the ad-free version of MapFactor Navigator, which, as I
recall, uses a variety of map sources (e.g., Tom Tom Maps or OSM maps).

I have the showing of the data selection turned off by default, but you can
select either Tom Tom Commercial Data or OSM Maps upon startup for example.

> I remember when trialing an OpenStreets map app (don't remember the
> name) that it still reported a library was in its old location despite
> the library moved a mile away 3 years before. It showed businesses that
> had closed several years before.

Oh. Now you're talking something else altogether than roadway locations!

Yes. Indeed. The POI database of most of the non-Google maps sucks by way of
comparison to Google Maps' POI. There's absolutely no comparison possible.

That's why I said the address lookup of Google Maps was the cat's meow.
The POI lookup for Google Maps just kills almost _every_ other map database.

There's a _reason_ I said my use model is to use the POI of Google Maps
(either via the web browser shortcut in my maps folder, or Google Maps), and
then I use the coordinates of that lookup result in the offline street maps.

> Yeah, I could've issued updates for
> every inaccuracy that I found, but I wasn't so inclined at the time,
> plus I'd be issuing more updates than in using their map data. And I
> cannot do anything about their delays and inability to have revenue to
> get recent satellite images.

Again, your point of view is useful, and perfectly valid, IMHO.

You'd go nuts trying to update the POI databases of the offline free maps.
There's no doubt that the Google Maps POI database is simply fantastic.

I used to use Garmin's (I had them all over time), and it shocked me that
even the first Google Maps updates were far better than the Garmins were.

It's just amazing how _good_ Google POIs are compared to the others.

> No thanks to community-driven map data. Imagine the chaos with
> community-driven anti-virus software. Those web browser add-ons that
> show site rankings (SiteAdvisor) are worthless, because they rating less
> than 1% of the registered and sited domains, are susceptible to boobs or
> those invested in vendettas against a site, and are out of date (despite
> a site went "good", they are listed as "bad" for many months or years
> later).

Your use model is different than my use model where both have their place.
I aim for privacy. You aim for POI accuracy.
I also aim for backcountry accuracy (where USGS maps are the cat's meow).
<https://apps.nationalmap.gov/downloader/#/>

For example, I _love_ the historical series of the USGS backcountry maps.
There's a reason different maps serve different people's purposes.

>> ...
>> 2. Maps.ME
>> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.mapswithme.maps.pro
>
> Adware (contains ads). Another OpenStreet map app. No thanks.

Agree. I don't remember my test conclusion but you won't see it on my phone.

>> 3. MapFactor Navigator
>> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.mapfactor.navigator
>
> Adware (contains ads, offers in-app purchases).

The older versions were not adware. I use the older versions.
They work just fine.

>> 4. Here WeGo
>> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.here.app.maps
>
> Adware (contains ads, but I've not seen any). They have their own map
> data. Not Google map data. Not OpenStreet "community" map data.
>
> <didn't bother to check the rest in your list as to which use whose map
> database, and if adware or not>

Note that I ran an _extensive_ test of _all_ the free offline maps on both
iOS and Android years ago, which we could dig up, but I'm not disagreeing
with your point of view.

If I may summarize your point of view (for you to correct), it's this...
1. Google Maps has an accurate enough road & POI database
2. OSM maps do not have an accurate enough road & POI database

Is that a valid summary of your point of view?
(Please correct where I err as the whole point of Usenet is to learn from
each other and to provide value that everyone else can benefit from.)

Mine is slightly different even as I agree with your Google accuracy POV.
3. Google Maps aren't private enough for me to use except only when needed
4. I use Google Maps for POI lookups mainly (& sometimes for traffic)
5. When I check traffic, I use Google Maps in a web browser instead
6. When I look up POIs, I simply clipboard the coordinates it finds
7. Then I paste those coordinate into any desired offline map program
8. The two I use most are MapFactor Navigator (older ad free versions)
and OSMAnd~ (which is the one on F-Droid mimicking GP OSMAnd+).

For _backcountry_ hiking, it's a completely different story IMHO.
9. Google topo maps suck in my humble opinion, compared to USGS maps.
<https://store.usgs.gov/map-locator>
10. OSM topo maps also suck, IMHO, compared to the 1:24000 USGS maps.
<http://www.gmaptool.eu/en/content/usa-osm-topo-routable>

Thank you for adding value to the topic we're discussing on this ng.
--
BTW, I make my own electronic routable backcountry maps when I need to.
I even wrote tutorials on how to make your own electronic routable maps
using Avenza based on instructions provided on the USGS web site.
<https://www.avenzamaps.com/vendor/3967/usgs-api>
<https://www.avenzamaps.com/vendor/804/united-states-geological-survey/>
<https://www.avenzamaps.com/>
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.Avenza>

paul <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:

> Your use model is different than my use model where both have their place.
> I aim for privacy. You aim for POI accuracy.

I gave a POI example. I have also seen OSM show roads that don't exist.
Someone decided to issue city plats to OSM to show roads; however, the
plats depict not just what already exist, but also what are planned, but
plans change. Submitting city plat data can result in listing roads
that don't yet exist, and may never exist.

I remember when on a vacation in Florida that Maps.ME told me to take a
right from the highway (after telling me to take an exit ramp onto
another highway) to go to Kissimmee. It was, as best as I could tell
without actually going that way, a logging road into a swamp. I didn't
feel like feeding the alligators. It might've been planned for a road,
but it wasn't yet.

I was using some OSM map app which told me to take a side road (a
through street) instead of the highway. Turns out that the city decided
to build a park which blocked the road. I later found out the residents
had complained about that main road (was before the highway got built)
getting a lot of traffic of folks, like me, that would take that old
road, because sometimes I'm more interested in a nice drive than shaving
a minute from my drive time. They petitioned to get the park built to
block that road. What pissed me off is it is one of those federally
designated scenic travel routes, and remained that way despite the city
blocked the road, so you could no longer take a scenic drive on that
road.

I suspect some users think that submitting city plats is a quick boost
to get road data into the OSM map database. Bad move. Community driven
data means it gets out of date very fast if no one reports major changes
in a road.

VanguardLH wrote on 07.07.2021 18:01
> I gave a POI example.

I agree that none of the freely available maps compare to Google in terms of
Points of Interest, where last I checked (years ago) the downloaded offline
Google Maps did contain those POIs.

In terms of privacy, if the downloaded Google Maps still have POIs embedded
in them, what I would do if I had a Google Account on my phone would be to
download the areas I care about and search them offline for various POIs.

My current road use model is to use either the web based Google Maps or the
Google Maps app itself to find the coordinates of the POI, and then I paste
those coordinates into offline routing apps such as OSMANd~ or the older APK
ad free MapFactor Navigator (although _many_ others exist for sure).
<https://play.google.com/store/search?q=map%20navigation&c=apps>

For backcountry, I sometimes electronically draw the desired route on a topo
map and then I convert that route to a track while at the desktop PC and
then on the ground with the phone I can follow that track (I've written
tutorials on how to do that too) where it says directions like this):
"Head North 30 degrees for 50 feet (to regain your route)"

But I haven't done that in a while so we'd have to dig up the tutorial.

> I have also seen OSM show roads that don't exist.

Yup. I've had Google fix inaccuracies and I've seen even more road
inaccuracies in the OSM road maps. Google road maps are more accurate.

The topo maps for both Google and for OSM stink though compared to USGS.

USGS topo map downloads
https://www.usgs.gov/faqs/how-do-i-find-download-or-order-topographic-maps
https://gisgeography.com/download-usgs-topo-maps-free/
https://www.outdoors.org/resources/amc-outdoors/gear/how-to-add-usgs-topographic-maps-to-google-earth/

Google topo map downloads
https://ge-map-overlays.appspot.com/google-maps/terrain
https://www.ecoservecuador.com/single-post/2018/03/23/HOW-TO-DOWNLOAD-TOPOGRAPHIC-MAPS-FROM-GOOGLE-EARTH-Very-easy-method

OSM topo map downloads
https://data.maptiler.com/downloads/planet/

> Someone decided to issue city plats to OSM to show roads; however, the
> plats depict not just what already exist, but also what are planned, but
> plans change. Submitting city plat data can result in listing roads
> that don't yet exist, and may never exist.

https://www.askdifference.com/plot-vs-plat/

Out here, each county has their own GIS department who provides their maps
to everyone else, including Google. Ask me how I know this, as I had to get
_them_ to correct their maps also (they are the source of the maps that the
police and fire department use, for example, along with Google & others).

> I remember when on a vacation in Florida that Maps.ME told me to take a
> right from the highway (after telling me to take an exit ramp onto
> another highway) to go to Kissimmee. It was, as best as I could tell
> without actually going that way, a logging road into a swamp. I didn't
> feel like feeding the alligators. It might've been planned for a road,
> but it wasn't yet.

All of us who have been using the computer based and then handheld based
mapping from Garmin and Magellin and Copilot and Delorme over the decades
have a few stories like that!

What amazed me, when Google Maps first came out, was how much BETTER it was
than my Garmin nuvi in terms of POI and road accuracy. I never looked back.

> I was using some OSM map app which told me to take a side road (a
> through street) instead of the highway. Turns out that the city decided
> to build a park which blocked the road. I later found out the residents
> had complained about that main road (was before the highway got built)
> getting a lot of traffic of folks, like me, that would take that old
> road, because sometimes I'm more interested in a nice drive than shaving
> a minute from my drive time. They petitioned to get the park built to
> block that road. What pissed me off is it is one of those federally
> designated scenic travel routes, and remained that way despite the city
> blocked the road, so you could no longer take a scenic drive on that
> road.

Out here, especially to block beach traffic, they _change_ the roadways over
the weekend so that the beach crowd doesn't take a shortcut through town.

The unfortunate thing is that they block everyone, not just the beach
traffic, which means even residents are inconvenienced by these detours.

This stuff shows up on Waze & Google Maps since it's all planned ahead so
the towns communicate with the powers that be who write the routing software
(according to the local news, as I recall).
> I suspect some users think that submitting city plats is a quick boost
> to get road data into the OSM map database. Bad move. Community driven
> data means it gets out of date very fast if no one reports major changes
> in a road.

Dunno how good this is but you can check if it has plat maps for your area.
https://www.platmaps.org/
--
The Android newsgroup shares ideas and solutions among intelligent people.

On 7/7/2021 4:37 PM, paul wrote:
> VanguardLH wrote on 07.07.2021 18:01
>> I gave a POI example.
>
> I agree that none of the freely available maps compare to Google in terms of
> Points of Interest, where last I checked (years ago) the downloaded offline
> Google Maps did contain those POIs.
>
> In terms of privacy, if the downloaded Google Maps still have POIs embedded
> in them, what I would do if I had a Google Account on my phone would be to
> download the areas I care about and search them offline for various POIs.
>
> My current road use model is to use either the web based Google Maps or the
> Google Maps app itself to find the coordinates of the POI, and then I paste
> those coordinates into offline routing apps such as OSMANd~ or the older APK
> ad free MapFactor Navigator (although _many_ others exist for sure).
> <https://play.google.com/store/search?q=map%20navigation&c=apps>
>
> For backcountry, I sometimes electronically draw the desired route on a topo
> map and then I convert that route to a track while at the desktop PC and
> then on the ground with the phone I can follow that track (I've written
> tutorials on how to do that too) where it says directions like this):
> "Head North 30 degrees for 50 feet (to regain your route)"
>
> But I haven't done that in a while so we'd have to dig up the tutorial.
>
>> I have also seen OSM show roads that don't exist.
>
> Yup. I've had Google fix inaccuracies and I've seen even more road
> inaccuracies in the OSM road maps. Google road maps are more accurate.
>
> The topo maps for both Google and for OSM stink though compared to USGS.
>
> USGS topo map downloads
> https://www.usgs.gov/faqs/how-do-i-find-download-or-order-topographic-maps
> https://gisgeography.com/download-usgs-topo-maps-free/
> https://www.outdoors.org/resources/amc-outdoors/gear/how-to-add-usgs-topographic-maps-to-google-earth/
>
> Google topo map downloads
> https://ge-map-overlays.appspot.com/google-maps/terrain
> https://www.ecoservecuador.com/single-post/2018/03/23/HOW-TO-DOWNLOAD-TOPOGRAPHIC-MAPS-FROM-GOOGLE-EARTH-Very-easy-method
>
> OSM topo map downloads
> https://data.maptiler.com/downloads/planet/
>
>> Someone decided to issue city plats to OSM to show roads; however, the
>> plats depict not just what already exist, but also what are planned, but
>> plans change. Submitting city plat data can result in listing roads
>> that don't yet exist, and may never exist.
>
> https://www.askdifference.com/plot-vs-plat/
>
> Out here, each county has their own GIS department who provides their maps
> to everyone else, including Google. Ask me how I know this, as I had to get
> _them_ to correct their maps also (they are the source of the maps that the
> police and fire department use, for example, along with Google & others).
>
>> I remember when on a vacation in Florida that Maps.ME told me to take a
>> right from the highway (after telling me to take an exit ramp onto
>> another highway) to go to Kissimmee. It was, as best as I could tell
>> without actually going that way, a logging road into a swamp. I didn't
>> feel like feeding the alligators. It might've been planned for a road,
>> but it wasn't yet.
>
> All of us who have been using the computer based and then handheld based
> mapping from Garmin and Magellin and Copilot and Delorme over the decades
> have a few stories like that!
>
> What amazed me, when Google Maps first came out, was how much BETTER it was
> than my Garmin nuvi in terms of POI and road accuracy. I never looked back.
>
>> I was using some OSM map app which told me to take a side road (a
>> through street) instead of the highway. Turns out that the city decided
>> to build a park which blocked the road. I later found out the residents
>> had complained about that main road (was before the highway got built)
>> getting a lot of traffic of folks, like me, that would take that old
>> road, because sometimes I'm more interested in a nice drive than shaving
>> a minute from my drive time. They petitioned to get the park built to
>> block that road. What pissed me off is it is one of those federally
>> designated scenic travel routes, and remained that way despite the city
>> blocked the road, so you could no longer take a scenic drive on that
>> road.
>
> Out here, especially to block beach traffic, they _change_ the roadways over
> the weekend so that the beach crowd doesn't take a shortcut through town.
>
> The unfortunate thing is that they block everyone, not just the beach
> traffic, which means even residents are inconvenienced by these detours.
>
> This stuff shows up on Waze & Google Maps since it's all planned ahead so
> the towns communicate with the powers that be who write the routing software
> (according to the local news, as I recall).
>
>> I suspect some users think that submitting city plats is a quick boost
>> to get road data into the OSM map database. Bad move. Community driven
>> data means it gets out of date very fast if no one reports major changes
>> in a road.
>
> Dunno how good this is but you can check if it has plat maps for your area.
> https://www.platmaps.org/
>

I want to thank Paul and VanguardLH for this great discussion in regards
to my question. I have read everything so far once.

I was quite happy with the Google Maps app for the last couple years,
but now they have changed things that are definitely making me rethink
that choice. You have given me a lot of info about the alternatives to
consider, which will take me some time.

Paul, you keep saying you are using an old version of the Mapfactor app.
Can you say which version that is?

Another question about my "login" problem with Google maps. It does not
give me a way to login, which I assume means I have to use either the
gmail or email app included with the phone. I tried logging into a gmail
account with K9, but that did nothing to help.

paul <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:

> VanguardLH wrote
>
>> Someone decided to issue city plats to OSM to show roads; however,
>> the plats depict not just what already exist, but also what are
>> planned, but plans change. Submitting city plat data can result in
>> listing roads that don't yet exist, and may never exist.
>
> https://www.askdifference.com/plot-vs-plat/

When have you ever looked at a city plat that did not identify roads?
That a property ID has been defined does not mandate there be a road
yet, but the plat is likely to show a proposed road. Plats have roads,
but the roads may not exist.

There is a concrete company close to a buddy's house. The plat showed
their property ID, the road to the south, but also showed a road on the
west; however, that west-side road didn't exist until 12 years later.
My buddy had his own dirt road to his home coming from the south-side
road, and 12 years later the city or county decided to build a real
north-south road (tarvy) on the west side of the concrete plant. That
also increased noise from the trucks from the concrete company that
could then use a gate to that west-side road instead of using their
south gate to the much busier south-side road. That the west-side road
didn't exist until 12 years after the issue date of the plat my buddy
got when he started building his home (and I helped) didn't stop the
road from showing up in the plat before the road existed.

Bob F <bobnospam@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 7/7/2021 4:37 PM, paul wrote:
>> VanguardLH wrote on 07.07.2021 18:01
>>> I gave a POI example.
>>
>> I agree that none of the freely available maps compare to Google in terms of
>> Points of Interest, where last I checked (years ago) the downloaded offline
>> Google Maps did contain those POIs.
>>
>> In terms of privacy, if the downloaded Google Maps still have POIs embedded
>> in them, what I would do if I had a Google Account on my phone would be to
>> download the areas I care about and search them offline for various POIs.
>>
>> My current road use model is to use either the web based Google Maps or the
>> Google Maps app itself to find the coordinates of the POI, and then I paste
>> those coordinates into offline routing apps such as OSMANd~ or the older APK
>> ad free MapFactor Navigator (although _many_ others exist for sure).
>> <https://play.google.com/store/search?q=map%20navigation&c=apps>
>>
>> For backcountry, I sometimes electronically draw the desired route on a topo
>> map and then I convert that route to a track while at the desktop PC and
>> then on the ground with the phone I can follow that track (I've written
>> tutorials on how to do that too) where it says directions like this):
>> "Head North 30 degrees for 50 feet (to regain your route)"
>>
>> But I haven't done that in a while so we'd have to dig up the tutorial.
>>
>>> I have also seen OSM show roads that don't exist.
>>
>> Yup. I've had Google fix inaccuracies and I've seen even more road
>> inaccuracies in the OSM road maps. Google road maps are more accurate.
>>
>> The topo maps for both Google and for OSM stink though compared to USGS.
>>
>> USGS topo map downloads
>> https://www.usgs.gov/faqs/how-do-i-find-download-or-order-topographic-maps
>> https://gisgeography.com/download-usgs-topo-maps-free/
>> https://www.outdoors.org/resources/amc-outdoors/gear/how-to-add-usgs-topographic-maps-to-google-earth/
>>
>> Google topo map downloads
>> https://ge-map-overlays.appspot.com/google-maps/terrain
>> https://www.ecoservecuador.com/single-post/2018/03/23/HOW-TO-DOWNLOAD-TOPOGRAPHIC-MAPS-FROM-GOOGLE-EARTH-Very-easy-method
>>
>> OSM topo map downloads
>> https://data.maptiler.com/downloads/planet/
>>
>>> Someone decided to issue city plats to OSM to show roads; however, the
>>> plats depict not just what already exist, but also what are planned, but
>>> plans change. Submitting city plat data can result in listing roads
>>> that don't yet exist, and may never exist.
>>
>> https://www.askdifference.com/plot-vs-plat/
>>
>> Out here, each county has their own GIS department who provides their maps
>> to everyone else, including Google. Ask me how I know this, as I had to get
>> _them_ to correct their maps also (they are the source of the maps that the
>> police and fire department use, for example, along with Google & others).
>>
>>> I remember when on a vacation in Florida that Maps.ME told me to take a
>>> right from the highway (after telling me to take an exit ramp onto
>>> another highway) to go to Kissimmee. It was, as best as I could tell
>>> without actually going that way, a logging road into a swamp. I didn't
>>> feel like feeding the alligators. It might've been planned for a road,
>>> but it wasn't yet.
>>
>> All of us who have been using the computer based and then handheld based
>> mapping from Garmin and Magellin and Copilot and Delorme over the decades
>> have a few stories like that!
>>
>> What amazed me, when Google Maps first came out, was how much BETTER it was
>> than my Garmin nuvi in terms of POI and road accuracy. I never looked back.
>>
>>> I was using some OSM map app which told me to take a side road (a
>>> through street) instead of the highway. Turns out that the city decided
>>> to build a park which blocked the road. I later found out the residents
>>> had complained about that main road (was before the highway got built)
>>> getting a lot of traffic of folks, like me, that would take that old
>>> road, because sometimes I'm more interested in a nice drive than shaving
>>> a minute from my drive time. They petitioned to get the park built to
>>> block that road. What pissed me off is it is one of those federally
>>> designated scenic travel routes, and remained that way despite the city
>>> blocked the road, so you could no longer take a scenic drive on that
>>> road.
>>
>> Out here, especially to block beach traffic, they _change_ the roadways over
>> the weekend so that the beach crowd doesn't take a shortcut through town.
>>
>> The unfortunate thing is that they block everyone, not just the beach
>> traffic, which means even residents are inconvenienced by these detours.
>>
>> This stuff shows up on Waze & Google Maps since it's all planned ahead so
>> the towns communicate with the powers that be who write the routing software
>> (according to the local news, as I recall).
>>
>>> I suspect some users think that submitting city plats is a quick boost
>>> to get road data into the OSM map database. Bad move. Community driven
>>> data means it gets out of date very fast if no one reports major changes
>>> in a road.
>>
>> Dunno how good this is but you can check if it has plat maps for your area.
>> https://www.platmaps.org/
>>
>
> I want to thank Paul and VanguardLH for this great discussion in regards
> to my question. I have read everything so far once.
>
> I was quite happy with the Google Maps app for the last couple years,
> but now they have changed things that are definitely making me rethink
> that choice. You have given me a lot of info about the alternatives to
> consider, which will take me some time.
>
> Paul, you keep saying you are using an old version of the Mapfactor app.
> Can you say which version that is?
>
> Another question about my "login" problem with Google maps. It does not
> give me a way to login, which I assume means I have to use either the
> gmail or email app included with the phone. I tried logging into a gmail
> account with K9, but that did nothing to help.

Just to be sure, is there a Google account defined on your phone? For
me, the nav path is:

[Android] Settings -> General -> Accounts

Alas, the same e-mail address may be shown for separate accounts. For
example, my Adobe account shows my Gmail address as does my Google
account, as in:

<AdobeIcon> <myGmail> Adobe
<GoogleIcon> <myGmail> Google

You want to see if there is one for Google.

Another question: Do you actually have a Google account (into which you
can login)?

Am 06.07.21 um 20:10 schrieb Bob F:
> I had maps loaded, they went away. Now, to load a map again, it stops
> the program if I say no to "Allow access to your contacts".
>
> Why should it require my contacts?
>
> Samsung S5

I did not encounter this issue on my Pixel 4 with Android 11.
Google maps has no access to my contacts.

Bob F wrote on 08.07.2021 05:25
> I want to thank Paul and VanguardLH for this great discussion in regards
> to my question. I have read everything so far once.

And I, for one, would like to thank you as I wasn't even aware that contacts
were _required_ to be uploaded to Google for its "Maps" app to save offline
maps.

Given I don't even put my contacts in the default location, nor do I even
have a Google Account set up on my phone, I wouldn't be aware of this.

The only solutions I can think of, given contacts upload is required, is
a. Wipe out your contacts (as I do) & then choose sms/phone apps which
have the ability to import/export their own app-specific contacts db
b. Or, don't download offline Google Maps (which is also what I do).

Since I don't have the phone set to any accounts, let alone a Google
Account, I wouldn't be able to download offline maps anyway in the current
version of Google Maps (it used to allow downloads even without an account).

Also, the only permission Google Maps really needs to work online is access
to your location while in use, which is the _only_ permission I allot it.

In addition, _never_ allow the Google Maps app to turn the location on, as
Google Maps turns on sleazy settings (which upload data to the mother ship)
which _none_ of the maps apps actually need, so always turn on location
using any other method than the special "gsm" activities that the "Maps" app
uses. (If you do accidentally use the Google Maps button to turn on
location, then set up a separate "activity" shortcut to turn it off
instantly, which is what I do, in addition to setting a default mock
location so that I have time to rectify the problem before it's too late).

All this has been covered in gory detail in other recent threads, so I won't
list them specifically above except to let you & the others know they exist.

> I was quite happy with the Google Maps app for the last couple years,
> but now they have changed things that are definitely making me rethink
> that choice. You have given me a lot of info about the alternatives to
> consider, which will take me some time.

Thank you for bringing up your point of view so that we can all learn more.

The _only_ thing Google Maps does that nobody else does as well, is the POI
lookup is fantastically accurate compared to all others. Once you have the
coordinates of the POI in the clipboard, _any_ map app will get you there.

Of course, Google spoken directions are also fantastic, but you'll mainly
only need their increased spoken-direction accuracy (e.g., what turn lanes
to use) in times of high routing stress (e.g., when in an unfamiliar city
with heavy traffic and perhaps with a time constraint on mistakes).

The other thing Google Maps does well is traffic but it turns out that
traffic is even better (IMHO) seen using a web browser set to the area of
concern (I use a desktop shortcut for that purpose) so that the routing and
traffic are both visualized in separate apps.

In addition, _plenty_ of government and safety-based agencies (thousands of
them) abound for traffic, many of which (e.g., 511.org & sigalert) give
_more_ detailed information than does Google Maps on the root cause of
unexpected traffic jams (e.g., accidents or construction).

Here's a screenshot of my maps folder for an idea of what I use daily.
https://i.postimg.cc/NfsF7n4H/maps04.jpg

And here's a screenshot of another of my maps folders on another phone.
https://i.postimg.cc/CMmSsgtN/maps01.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/vZmTvPZx/maps02.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/2y2zKzwB/maps03.jpg

> Paul, you keep saying you are using an old version of the Mapfactor app.
> Can you say which version that is?

Thanks for that question as I didn't even _look_ which version I was using.

The version is a good question to ask, as all of us on Android automatically
_save_ all our APKs even _before_ we install the app (the free Google Play
client that I use has a switch for _not deleting_ the APK after it installs
the app, as we've covered many times in the past - which is a switch I
suggest _everyone_ use since you'll _never_ lose an APK when you do that).

Each of these APKs is then copied over to a master archive (either on hard
disk, USB sticks, or it's kept on the sdcard, at your convenience).

Looking at that archive, here's what I am using since I populated my entire
phone from the apps that I had downloaded on my previous phones (which is
yet again one of the umpteen things we do day in and day out on Android
which are impossible with iOS). It's version 5.5.85 (5005085 12/3/2019).
https://i.postimg.cc/FFYqg9Dv/maps05.jpg

If you use Adblock, you probably won't see any ads even if you use the
latest MapFactor Navigator (maybe even NetGuard will block the ads if you
use the optional hosts file capability - again - these being system wide
capabilities unavailable on my iOS devices that I use every single day).

BTW, I admit openly that I'm no good with explaining which apps have ads and
which apps don't have ads as I _never_ see an ad on Android (only on iOS do
I ever see ads), even as I must have some of my seven hundred installed apps
that must be _trying_ to show ads to me.

Mainly I use a Google Play free client that has a persistent filter to
filter out apps with ads, but when I must loosen the filter, even _then_ I
don't see ads (due to the ad blockers I installed when I first set up my
unrooted phone).

> Another question about my "login" problem with Google maps. It does not
> give me a way to login, which I assume means I have to use either the
> gmail or email app included with the phone.

Hmmmmmmmmm...... I think you said you, like I, do _not_ have a Google
Account set up on the phone, right?

So I should be able to _test_ what you're seeing, with the only difference
being perhaps that I've downgraded all my Google apps that I couldn't
actually delete to either be inactivated or, if they couldn't be
inactivated, I downgraded them to their original factory version (although
my phone is only a few months old, so that's a relatively new factory
version unfortunately).

When I just now used either the Google Maps web browser shortcut or the
Google Maps app on my phone, it allowed me to route from anywhere (including
my current spoofed location if desired) to anywhere else _without_ needing
to log in.

But, when I started the process, Google Maps _did_ give me an option to
create an account by optionally asking "Sign in to save your searches",
which, when I press, it then asks me to "Add account" since I don't have one
set up.

> I tried logging into a gmail account with K9, but that did nothing to help.

The _good_ thing about the many free mail user agents (MUAs) on Android is
they don't pull the sneaky trick that the GMail App does of sleazily
_adding_ a new account to the phone (and uploading all your contacts to
Google without asking!).

As such, _none_ of these should be adding an account to Android (AFAIK).
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.deependhulla.opemail
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.easilydo.mail
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.fsck.k9
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.ninefolders.hd3
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.readdle.spark
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.samsung.android.email.provider
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.syntomo.email
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.trtf.blue
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.zoho.mail
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=de.tutao.tutanota
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=eu.faircode.email
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=me.bluemail.mail

In summary, thanks for asking your question, from which we all learned.
--
Usenet smartphone ng users can discuss these things as adults to learn
from each other, and to share knowledge that they've learned themselves.

Joerg Lorenz wrote:
> Am 06.07.21 um 20:10 schrieb Bob F:
>> I had maps loaded, they went away. Now, to load a map again, it stops
>> the program if I say no to "Allow access to your contacts".
>>
>> Why should it require my contacts?
>>
>> Samsung S5
>
> I did not encounter this issue on my Pixel 4 with Android 11.
> Google maps has no access to my contacts.

Are you sure?

What does your Pixel 4 with Android 11 say when you press Android
"Settings" & then "Apps" & then "Maps" & then "Permissions" & then
it provides a list of what's "Allowed" versus what's "Denied" there?
--
Ken Hart
kwhart1@frontier.com

VanguardLH wrote on 08.07.2021 11:41
> Just to be sure, is there a Google account defined on your phone?

While this question is posted to the OP, I can help out a bit...

Since we're all helping each other, and since the answer to Vanguard's
question is binary, where half of us might have a Google Account set up on
the phone while the other half might not have a Google Account set up on the
phone, here's what I get with my setup, which has no Google Account on the
phone.

The Google Maps app works fine _without_ needing a Google Account
<https://i.postimg.cc/wBcPVb2P/maps05.jpg>

I can run a search & get routing directions _without_ a Google Account
<https://i.postimg.cc/Y9rPyfyS/maps06.jpg>

The Google Maps app even saves _recent_ searches (despite claiming it won't)
but if you want _all_ your searches saved, you need to log in, which, if you
don't have an account set up on the phone, then it will ask to create one.
<https://i.postimg.cc/mDmnxz0y/maps07.jpg>

However, _never_ allow the Google Maps app to turn on Location because
I've tested this thoroughly and it turns on sleazy settings that no
other mapping app turns on (to my knowledge, which I've tested)!
<https://i.postimg.cc/pry6PVvb/maps08.jpg>

> Another question: Do you actually have a Google account
> (into which you can login)?

Again, I understand this is posed to the OP, but I can help out by saying I
don't think it matters whether or not a Google Account exists, since, for
the purpose of the phone, it doesn't exist until/unless the user does
something "stupid", which I'll define as either...
a. Setting up the phone to have a Google Account, or,
b. Logging into the GMail app even just once (since it _adds_ an account),
c. Or, logging into a variety of other Google apps which do the same thing.

Most Google apps should work fine _without_ needing a Google Account
(I think only the GMail app and the Google Voice app need an account).

But they'll all give you an option to _create_ an account, that's for sure!
<https://i.postimg.cc/mDmnxz0y/maps07.jpg>
--
Usenet is supposed to be all about helpful adults helping each other by
purposefully helpfully providing advice and suggestions for all to benefit.

VanguardLH wrote on 08.07.2021 17:36
> When have you ever looked at a city plat that did not identify roads?
> That a property ID has been defined does not mandate there be a road
> yet, but the plat is likely to show a proposed road. Plats have roads,
> but the roads may not exist.

Thank you for your added information about the city plats, which I believe
you have far more experience with than I do.

I've only dealt with them when I needed the assessor to talk to the GIS guy
who needed to change _his_ maps, which then the local police and fire use.

It took only a few months but when I finally flagged down a law enforcement
car a few months after asking the GIS guys to talk to the assessors office,
they showed their electronic maps had been corrected (they don't use paper
maps anymore in emergency vehicles).

They told me Google gets those local GIS maps which by now Google should
have also, as should most of the other mapping outfits, where my point is my
only experience with this stuff is when I had to get the assessor to talk to
the GIS guy.

In summary, apparently _all_ those who get their maps from the local
authorities don't get them from the assessor but from the GIS team but the
GIS team gets _their_ information from the assessor's office.

That's my _only_ experience with this stuff, where I concede easily that
your experience is clearly far greater than that one incident of mine.

So I thank you for adding your information which helps me and others learn.

By the way, back on the original technical topic, I dug up some of my old
screenshots when I last tested downloading of offline maps in the Google
Maps app, where this older version of Google Maps had a button for "Offline
Maps" even if I didn't have an account set up on the phone.
<https://i.postimg.cc/05H6kD2p/offline01.jpg> Google Offline Maps GUI

The _older_ Google Maps GUI allowed you to get so far as to hit a few
buttons to select the offline map tile of your choice... but...
<https://i.postimg.cc/tg5TLVMn/offline02.jpg> Requires Google login

Given I didn't have an account, it wouldn't allow a sign in:
<https://i.postimg.cc/WbB1JqLP/offline03.jpg> Requires Google Account

Notice the _newer_ versions of Google Maps now has a more graceful interface
where it _knows_ there is no account set up on the phone, so it asks to
create that account (which I'd have to be a fool to do, of course).
<https://i.postimg.cc/wBcPVb2P/maps05.jpg>

I can run a search & get routing directions _without_ a Google Account
<https://i.postimg.cc/Y9rPyfyS/maps06.jpg>

And now, it's more graceful in _asking_ for an account to be added
<https://i.postimg.cc/mDmnxz0y/maps07.jpg>

However, I recommend users _never_ allow the Google Maps app to turn on
Location because I've tested this thoroughly and it turns on sleazy
settings that no other mapping app turns on (to my knowledge).
<https://i.postimg.cc/pry6PVvb/maps08.jpg>
--
Usenet is where purposefully helpful adults discuss topics of interest
so that all of us learn from each others' shared related experiences.

On 7/8/2021 9:44 AM, paul wrote:
> VanguardLH wrote on 08.07.2021 11:41
>> Just to be sure, is there a Google account defined on your phone?

No.

>
> While this question is posted to the OP, I can help out a bit...
>
> Since we're all helping each other, and since the answer to Vanguard's
> question is binary, where half of us might have a Google Account set up on
> the phone while the other half might not have a Google Account set up on the
> phone, here's what I get with my setup, which has no Google Account on the
> phone.
>
> The Google Maps app works fine _without_ needing a Google Account
> <https://i.postimg.cc/wBcPVb2P/maps05.jpg>

And it works fine for me if WiFi is on. Mobil Data never is.

>
> I can run a search & get routing directions _without_ a Google Account
> <https://i.postimg.cc/Y9rPyfyS/maps06.jpg>

Ditto.

>
> The Google Maps app even saves _recent_ searches (despite claiming it won't)
> but if you want _all_ your searches saved, you need to log in, which, if you
> don't have an account set up on the phone, then it will ask to create one.
> <https://i.postimg.cc/mDmnxz0y/maps07.jpg>
>
> However, _never_ allow the Google Maps app to turn on Location because
> I've tested this thoroughly and it turns on sleazy settings that no
> other mapping app turns on (to my knowledge, which I've tested)!
> <https://i.postimg.cc/pry6PVvb/maps08.jpg>
>
>> Another question: Do you actually have a Google account
>> (into which you can login)?

Multiple.

>
> Again, I understand this is posed to the OP, but I can help out by saying I
> don't think it matters whether or not a Google Account exists, since, for
> the purpose of the phone, it doesn't exist until/unless the user does
> something "stupid", which I'll define as either...
> a. Setting up the phone to have a Google Account, or,
> b. Logging into the GMail app even just once (since it _adds_ an account),
> c. Or, logging into a variety of other Google apps which do the same thing.
>
> Most Google apps should work fine _without_ needing a Google Account
> (I think only the GMail app and the Google Voice app need an account).

Google maps did not until recently for me. Now, it will not download
offline maps.

>
> But they'll all give you an option to _create_ an account, that's for sure!
> <https://i.postimg.cc/mDmnxz0y/maps07.jpg>

Press the Add account in Google maps, the box goes away. Nothing else
happens.

>

Am 08.07.21 um 18:31 schrieb Ken Hart:
> Joerg Lorenz wrote:
>> I did not encounter this issue on my Pixel 4 with Android 11.
>> Google maps has no access to my contacts.
>
> Are you sure?
>
> What does your Pixel 4 with Android 11 say when you press Android
> "Settings" & then "Apps" & then "Maps" & then "Permissions" & then
> it provides a list of what's "Allowed" versus what's "Denied" there?

Only permitted access is "Standort" (=location).
All other accesses are denied.

In a way you are Troll not giving me the credit being able to manage my
apps. It is simple: Access to contacts is not needed for maps.

On 7/8/2021 8:41 AM, VanguardLH wrote:
> Bob F <bobnospam@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 7/7/2021 4:37 PM, paul wrote:
>>> VanguardLH wrote on 07.07.2021 18:01
>>>> I gave a POI example.
>>>
>>> I agree that none of the freely available maps compare to Google in terms of
>>> Points of Interest, where last I checked (years ago) the downloaded offline
>>> Google Maps did contain those POIs.
>>>
>>> In terms of privacy, if the downloaded Google Maps still have POIs embedded
>>> in them, what I would do if I had a Google Account on my phone would be to
>>> download the areas I care about and search them offline for various POIs.
>>>
>>> My current road use model is to use either the web based Google Maps or the
>>> Google Maps app itself to find the coordinates of the POI, and then I paste
>>> those coordinates into offline routing apps such as OSMANd~ or the older APK
>>> ad free MapFactor Navigator (although _many_ others exist for sure).
>>> <https://play.google.com/store/search?q=map%20navigation&c=apps>
>>>
>>> For backcountry, I sometimes electronically draw the desired route on a topo
>>> map and then I convert that route to a track while at the desktop PC and
>>> then on the ground with the phone I can follow that track (I've written
>>> tutorials on how to do that too) where it says directions like this):
>>> "Head North 30 degrees for 50 feet (to regain your route)"
>>>
>>> But I haven't done that in a while so we'd have to dig up the tutorial.
>>>
>>>> I have also seen OSM show roads that don't exist.
>>>
>>> Yup. I've had Google fix inaccuracies and I've seen even more road
>>> inaccuracies in the OSM road maps. Google road maps are more accurate.
>>>
>>> The topo maps for both Google and for OSM stink though compared to USGS.
>>>
>>> USGS topo map downloads
>>> https://www.usgs.gov/faqs/how-do-i-find-download-or-order-topographic-maps
>>> https://gisgeography.com/download-usgs-topo-maps-free/
>>> https://www.outdoors.org/resources/amc-outdoors/gear/how-to-add-usgs-topographic-maps-to-google-earth/
>>>
>>> Google topo map downloads
>>> https://ge-map-overlays.appspot.com/google-maps/terrain
>>> https://www.ecoservecuador.com/single-post/2018/03/23/HOW-TO-DOWNLOAD-TOPOGRAPHIC-MAPS-FROM-GOOGLE-EARTH-Very-easy-method
>>>
>>> OSM topo map downloads
>>> https://data.maptiler.com/downloads/planet/
>>>
>>>> Someone decided to issue city plats to OSM to show roads; however, the
>>>> plats depict not just what already exist, but also what are planned, but
>>>> plans change. Submitting city plat data can result in listing roads
>>>> that don't yet exist, and may never exist.
>>>
>>> https://www.askdifference.com/plot-vs-plat/
>>>
>>> Out here, each county has their own GIS department who provides their maps
>>> to everyone else, including Google. Ask me how I know this, as I had to get
>>> _them_ to correct their maps also (they are the source of the maps that the
>>> police and fire department use, for example, along with Google & others).
>>>
>>>> I remember when on a vacation in Florida that Maps.ME told me to take a
>>>> right from the highway (after telling me to take an exit ramp onto
>>>> another highway) to go to Kissimmee. It was, as best as I could tell
>>>> without actually going that way, a logging road into a swamp. I didn't
>>>> feel like feeding the alligators. It might've been planned for a road,
>>>> but it wasn't yet.
>>>
>>> All of us who have been using the computer based and then handheld based
>>> mapping from Garmin and Magellin and Copilot and Delorme over the decades
>>> have a few stories like that!
>>>
>>> What amazed me, when Google Maps first came out, was how much BETTER it was
>>> than my Garmin nuvi in terms of POI and road accuracy. I never looked back.
>>>
>>>> I was using some OSM map app which told me to take a side road (a
>>>> through street) instead of the highway. Turns out that the city decided
>>>> to build a park which blocked the road. I later found out the residents
>>>> had complained about that main road (was before the highway got built)
>>>> getting a lot of traffic of folks, like me, that would take that old
>>>> road, because sometimes I'm more interested in a nice drive than shaving
>>>> a minute from my drive time. They petitioned to get the park built to
>>>> block that road. What pissed me off is it is one of those federally
>>>> designated scenic travel routes, and remained that way despite the city
>>>> blocked the road, so you could no longer take a scenic drive on that
>>>> road.
>>>
>>> Out here, especially to block beach traffic, they _change_ the roadways over
>>> the weekend so that the beach crowd doesn't take a shortcut through town.
>>>
>>> The unfortunate thing is that they block everyone, not just the beach
>>> traffic, which means even residents are inconvenienced by these detours.
>>>
>>> This stuff shows up on Waze & Google Maps since it's all planned ahead so
>>> the towns communicate with the powers that be who write the routing software
>>> (according to the local news, as I recall).
>>>
>>>> I suspect some users think that submitting city plats is a quick boost
>>>> to get road data into the OSM map database. Bad move. Community driven
>>>> data means it gets out of date very fast if no one reports major changes
>>>> in a road.
>>>
>>> Dunno how good this is but you can check if it has plat maps for your area.
>>> https://www.platmaps.org/
>>>
>>
>> I want to thank Paul and VanguardLH for this great discussion in regards
>> to my question. I have read everything so far once.
>>
>> I was quite happy with the Google Maps app for the last couple years,
>> but now they have changed things that are definitely making me rethink
>> that choice. You have given me a lot of info about the alternatives to
>> consider, which will take me some time.
>>
>> Paul, you keep saying you are using an old version of the Mapfactor app.
>> Can you say which version that is?
>>
>> Another question about my "login" problem with Google maps. It does not
>> give me a way to login, which I assume means I have to use either the
>> gmail or email app included with the phone. I tried logging into a gmail
>> account with K9, but that did nothing to help.
>
> Just to be sure, is there a Google account defined on your phone? For
> me, the nav path is:
>
> [Android] Settings -> General -> Accounts

"+ add account"

>
> Alas, the same e-mail address may be shown for separate accounts. For
> example, my Adobe account shows my Gmail address as does my Google
> account, as in:
>
> <AdobeIcon> <myGmail> Adobe
> <GoogleIcon> <myGmail> Google
>
> You want to see if there is one for Google.
>
> Another question: Do you actually have a Google account (into which you
> can login)?

Multiple. But I don't want my phone turning on wifi to access them
unless I tell it to. I use K9 for email because it understands that.

I use my phone for occasional phone calls or texts. Usually a few a week
at most. I want the battery to need as little charging as possible for
MY usage. I have only used mobile data a few times for testing purposes,
which costs me 5 cents a Mb.

>