Do you use WhatsApp without contact access for privacy?
If so, what tricks do you use to maintain your privacy while calling people?

I recently installed the Whatsapp app on Android 11 in order to converse
with someone in Germany who is traveling from the USA and therefore she is
charged 25 cents a minute for every incoming and outgoing +1 or +49 mobile
phone call (when she is not on Wi-Fi or cellular data).

Initially, WhatsApp insisted on having access to my contacts, which, even
though they're empty (for exactly that reason!), I couldn't make a call
without adding this free ad free gsf free "click2chat" app from Trianguloy.
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.trianguloy.openInWhatsapp>

With that "click to chat" app, I was able to create a shortcut link to the
phone number to make the call using WhatsApp without WhatsApp having any
access to my contacts (which, as I said, are empty anyway).

While I was looking for that solution to making a call on WhatsApp without
giving WhatsApp any access to anything but the phone & microphone, I noticed
there may be other solutions to making WhatsApp calls without any contact.

For example, this is a WhatsApp dialer that will dial the number directly.
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.applaudsoft.wabi.wad>

Unfortunately that Applaud Dialer for WhatsApp is GSF dependent, even as
it's at least free and ad free like most (if not almost all) my apps are.

Since I'm new to using WhatsApp, and since I care to NOT give it any more of
my data other than my phone number and the numbers I actually call or direct
message to, what other tricks do you use to maintain your privacy while you
use Whatsapp?

For example, do you know of a good free ad free direct phone dialer for
WhatsAppl like the one I found, but which is Google Services Framework free?

In addition, people in Germany may pay for SMS/MMS messages, so I added
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.andrd.wadirectmessage>
Which is a free ad free GSF free WhatsApp direct messenger app.

What else do you do to maintain privacy of your contacts from WhatsApp?
--
On the Android newsgroup we purposefully helpfully help each other maintain
our privacy while working on solutions that are free, ad free and GSF free.

On 31/07/2021 08.01, paul wrote:
> Do you use WhatsApp without contact access for privacy?

No.

> If so, what tricks do you use to maintain your privacy while calling people?

People do use whatsap without adding them to the contact list *for
convenience* when contacting someone just one time, not for privacy
reasons. There are tricks published in media now and then, but they
looked cumbersome and I forgot them.

At least before whatsap was bought by facebook, the contact list is only
used locally in your phone, it was never uploaded to facebook servers.
And as far as I know, this has not changed, in Europe this would be
forbidden.

If you care about privacy, was Signal or Telegram instead.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

paul <nospam@nospam.invalid> writes:

> Do you use WhatsApp without contact access for privacy?
> If so, what tricks do you use to maintain your privacy while calling people?
>
> I recently installed the Whatsapp app on Android 11 in order to converse
> with someone in Germany who is traveling from the USA and therefore she is
> charged 25 cents a minute for every incoming and outgoing +1 or +49 mobile
> phone call (when she is not on Wi-Fi or cellular data).
>
> Initially, WhatsApp insisted on having access to my contacts, which, even
> though they're empty (for exactly that reason!), I couldn't make a call
> without adding this free ad free gsf free "click2chat" app from Trianguloy.
> <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.trianguloy.openInWhatsapp>
>
> With that "click to chat" app, I was able to create a shortcut link to the
> phone number to make the call using WhatsApp without WhatsApp having any
> access to my contacts (which, as I said, are empty anyway).
>
> While I was looking for that solution to making a call on WhatsApp without
> giving WhatsApp any access to anything but the phone & microphone, I noticed
> there may be other solutions to making WhatsApp calls without any contact.
>
> For example, this is a WhatsApp dialer that will dial the number directly.
> <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.applaudsoft.wabi.wad>
>
> Unfortunately that Applaud Dialer for WhatsApp is GSF dependent, even as
> it's at least free and ad free like most (if not almost all) my apps are.
>
> Since I'm new to using WhatsApp, and since I care to NOT give it any more of
> my data other than my phone number and the numbers I actually call or direct
> message to, what other tricks do you use to maintain your privacy while you
> use Whatsapp?
>
> For example, do you know of a good free ad free direct phone dialer for
> WhatsAppl like the one I found, but which is Google Services Framework free?
>
> In addition, people in Germany may pay for SMS/MMS messages, so I added
> <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.andrd.wadirectmessage>
> Which is a free ad free GSF free WhatsApp direct messenger app.
>
> What else do you do to maintain privacy of your contacts from WhatsApp?

I deleted whatsapp some time ago, but presumably your contact is on
whatsapp and so you have to use it. Maybe you could put a false name in
your contacts? But does your contact care about her privacy? Presumably
she has your name in her contacts, so while you are protecting her
privacy she is handing over your name and number to whatsapp.

It is very difficult, I think ultimately names and numbers are going to
be out there, if not via whatsapp then via google contacts or whatever.

Another option might be to log into the phone with a different android
user, or guest user (I have this option with android 10), so with
different contacts list. Then delete the user afterwards. But it would
be tiresome and whatsapp still gets a name and number.

Carlos E. R. wrote on 31.07.2021 13:19
> People do use whatsap without adding them to the contact list *for
> convenience* when contacting someone just one time, not for privacy
> reasons. There are tricks published in media now and then, but they
> looked cumbersome and I forgot them.

Hi Carlos,
Thanks for hazarding help as I'm new to the way Whatsapp works in that it
seems to _require_ the contact to exist in the default sqlite database.

It's good when the hundreds of us _share_ tricks about using WhatsApp so
that we can learn from those who use it every day who may know great tricks.

Luckily, the tricks I found work well - I was simply hoping to improve them.
1. I created a one-touch customized icon to contact the WhatsApp recipient
2. That brings them up in WhatsApp _without_ them being in my contacts
3. From there, I can press the WhatsApp messenger and/or dialer (or video)

Here's a screenshot I made for you which shows how easy these tricks make it
<https://i.postimg.cc/636XBckk/whatsapp01.jpg>

The goal now is to _improve_ upon those WhatsApp tricks to make it better!

> At least before whatsap was bought by facebook, the contact list is only
> used locally in your phone, it was never uploaded to facebook servers.
> And as far as I know, this has not changed, in Europe this would be
> forbidden.

Ah, that's an interesting point if the personal contacts sqlite db isn't
actually synced with the Whatsapp servers, then it doesn't improve privacy
by figuring out a trick to use WhatsApp without a contacts sqlite database.

Is that contacts.sqlite database _uploaded_ to WhatsApp servers nowadays?

> If you care about privacy, was Signal or Telegram instead.

None of those work if the other person doesn't _also_ use them, but this
person is using Whatsapp because her friends & relatives in Europe use it.

Luckily, given I don't even have a contacts.sqlite database, the tricks I
found allow me to converse with them at the touch of a homescreen button.

The question now is how to further _improve_ upon what I've learned above.
--
On Android, when we find a solution, we don't stop: We improve it further.

Richmond wrote on 31.07.2021 13:45
> I deleted whatsapp some time ago, but presumably your contact is on
> whatsapp and so you have to use it. Maybe you could put a false name in
> your contacts?

Thanks for adding value to help _improve_ our privacy when using Whatsapp.

It seems strange that WhatsApp requires a contacts.sqlite database because
nothing else does (e.g., SMS apps don't need it, nor do mail user agents).

A communication app should have a simple direct dial for unknown contacts.

> But does your contact care about her privacy?

What matters is whether the contacts.sqlite database is sent to WhatsApp.

Why should the _entire_ database be handed over to the mother ship just to
communicate with _one_ of the people on that huge contacts sqlite database?

> Presumably she has your name in her contacts, so while you are protecting her
> privacy she is handing over your name and number to whatsapp.

This is true, but if everyone cared about privacy, that wouldn't happen.

Besides...
It's rude if people give Google/WhatsApp/Facebook the _entire_ contacts db.

> It is very difficult, I think ultimately names and numbers are going to
> be out there, if not via whatsapp then via google contacts or whatever.

This is true that Google _requires_ the entire contacts.sqlite database to
be synced with the mother ship when using the GMail app (last I checked).

The solution to that problem though is easy which is to _not_ use the GMail
app (and/or to not have a contacts.sqlite database), both of which I do.

Why do I have an empty contacts.sqlite database?
Because it's rude to give Google/FaceBook/Whatsapp the entire contacts db.

> Another option might be to log into the phone with a different android
> user, or guest user (I have this option with android 10), so with
> different contacts list. Then delete the user afterwards. But it would
> be tiresome and whatsapp still gets a name and number.

I appreciate that suggestion but I don't "log into" the phone with any
account, which is easy to do since Android doesn't require an account
(note that iOS _does_ require an account, which is a huge privacy hole).

Along the lines of your suggestion though, I perhaps could have _created_ a
single contact in the default contacts.sqlite database... and once that
contact was subsequently inside of Whatsapp, then I could likely have
_deleted_ that contact from the database, which may have preserved it in WA.

That's an _easier_ suggestion than using the free ad free apps below.

Dialer For WhatsApp & WA-enabled Businesses List, by Applaud Soft
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.applaudsoft.wabi.wad>

Click to chat [small, no ads], TrianguloY
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.trianguloy.openInWhatsapp>

WhatsDirect - Direct Message for WhatsApp, by BlendTap Inc.
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.andrd.wadirectmessage>
--
If everyone solved every problem and published the solution so that others
could improve upon it even further, we'd all be more efficient on Android.

On 31/07/2021 17.41, paul wrote:
> Carlos E. R. wrote on 31.07.2021 13:19
>> People do use whatsap without adding them to the contact list *for
>> convenience* when contacting someone just one time, not for privacy
>> reasons. There are tricks published in media now and then, but they
>> looked cumbersome and I forgot them.
>
> Hi Carlos,
> Thanks for hazarding help as I'm new to the way Whatsapp works in that it
> seems to _require_ the contact to exist in the default sqlite database.
>
> It's good when the hundreds of us _share_ tricks about using WhatsApp so
> that we can learn from those who use it every day who may know great tricks.
>
> Luckily, the tricks I found work well - I was simply hoping to improve them.
> 1. I created a one-touch customized icon to contact the WhatsApp recipient
> 2. That brings them up in WhatsApp _without_ them being in my contacts
> 3. From there, I can press the WhatsApp messenger and/or dialer (or video)
>
> Here's a screenshot I made for you which shows how easy these tricks make it
> <https://i.postimg.cc/636XBckk/whatsapp01.jpg>

Yes, I seem to recall having to install external apps that would tell
whatsap to start a chat on whatever number not in the contact list, but
I do not like the idea.

My issue is not privacy, but contacting (for instance) a repair man that
is coming to my home and wants to see a photo of what he is going to
repair, or my location (two things for which we use whatsap), and I'm
never again going to contact this person, so no real want to have him in
my contact list. And it adds a delay.

So far, it happens so few times that I just add the contact with a
"temporary" prefix. It helps to know why I have that chat in my list of
chats.

Here, whatsap is a must have application. Everybody has it. Even people
of 90 years with abilities use it.

>
> The goal now is to _improve_ upon those WhatsApp tricks to make it better!
>
>> At least before whatsap was bought by facebook, the contact list is only
>> used locally in your phone, it was never uploaded to facebook servers.
>> And as far as I know, this has not changed, in Europe this would be
>> forbidden.
>
> Ah, that's an interesting point if the personal contacts sqlite db isn't
> actually synced with the Whatsapp servers, then it doesn't improve privacy
> by figuring out a trick to use WhatsApp without a contacts sqlite database.
>
> Is that contacts.sqlite database _uploaded_ to WhatsApp servers nowadays?

I can't vouch for it, but being facebook I have my little doubts. It is
possible there was some outcry at the suggestion of doing it and they
stopped, but my memory is not that precise to pinpoint the incident. And
in the European Union there are active data protection laws. For
instance, Amazon got fined yesterday with 746 million euros for a breach
of privacy, the biggest fine so far (the previous record was on Google).
The exact reason is not yet known.

<https://www.wsj.com/articles/amazon-faces-possible-425-million-eu-privacy-fine-11623332987>

What I know that whatsapp doesn't do is send an email or sms to your
contacts asking them to join - a practice that I have seen before in
other software, perhaps facebook and others. That was long ago.

All it apparently does, locally, is scan your system contact list and
display in whatsap list those that do have whatsap. For this, obviously
it has to query whatsap servers to find "is this number in our list of
clients"? You might consider this intrusive, but it is a needed feature
and other messaging apps do have similar features.

What they can't do is store in the servers the numbers that were queried
(and were not clients already), AFAIK.

In your case, as you only have one number in the contact list, and that
number is obviously known to whatsap servers (being a client), there is
no issue at all. You don't _need_ to bother.

>
>> If you care about privacy, was Signal or Telegram instead.
>
> None of those work if the other person doesn't _also_ use them, but this
> person is using Whatsapp because her friends & relatives in Europe use it.

So do we us all :-)

>
> Luckily, given I don't even have a contacts.sqlite database, the tricks I
> found allow me to converse with them at the touch of a homescreen button.
>
> The question now is how to further _improve_ upon what I've learned above.
>

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

Richmond wrote:

> I think ultimately names and numbers are going to be out there, if
> not via whatsapp then via google contacts or whatever.

I've only ever heard of one person that worries about his contact list
privacy to the point that he won't use it. Everybody else I know uses it
normally and (gasp) I'm likely entered on many of them. So even if I
played the paranoid part I doubt it would make very much difference in
anybody's security.

> Another option might be to log into the phone with a different
> android user, or guest user (I have this option with android 10), so
> with different contacts list.

When the wife got her iPhone 12 I kept the old 8 for a spare. To play
with it occasionally (on WiFi) I have it signed in with my fake name Apple
account. And there are no contacts...

Carlos E. R. wrote on 31.07.2021 19:44
> Yes, I seem to recall having to install external apps that would tell
> whatsap to start a chat on whatever number not in the contact list, but
> I do not like the idea.

Hi Carlos,

It's nice to be able to carry on a civil conversation, where I can learn
from you (I'm always a mirror of intent)since you use Whatsapp more than we
do in the USA (for the obvious reasons that you get charged for text/calls).

Just to be clear, the apps I chose are all free & ad free, and all but one
is GSF free, so they're not intrusive, and, better yet, I believe they can
be _uninstalled_ once they add the one contact to the WhatsApp application.
> My issue is not privacy, but contacting (for instance) a repair man that
> is coming to my home and wants to see a photo of what he is going to
> repair, or my location (two things for which we use whatsap), and I'm
> never again going to contact this person, so no real want to have him in
> my contact list. And it adds a delay.

I can fully agree with what you say, and, in fact, one of the apps I listed
is expressly for that purpose of contacting people _not_ in your contacts.

> So far, it happens so few times that I just add the contact with a
> "temporary" prefix. It helps to know why I have that chat in my list of
> chats.

Adding a temporary contact certainly would work (which is what I did).

But I suspect it's even easier to use one of the apps I unearthed because
once they add the contact to WhatsApp, I suspect you can _delete_ the apps.

This is the temporary contact method:
1. Create a temporary contact
2. Add that person to Whatsapp
3. Delete the temporary contact

This is the temporary adding method:
1. Install the workaround app
2. Use that workaround app to add that person to Whatsapp
3. Delete the workaround app

Since I don't even have a contacts sqlite database, the second approach
works for me, but for people with a contacts list, the first might work.

> Here, whatsap is a must have application. Everybody has it. Even people
> of 90 years with abilities use it.

Understood.
The only thing I don't like about the temporary contacts trick is that most
people don't have an empty contacts sqlite database like I do, so they're
still providing a window to Whatapp of _all_ their contacts.

Whether or not Whatsapp _keeps_ that window of all contacts, I don't know.

>> Is that contacts.sqlite database _uploaded_ to WhatsApp servers nowadays?
>
> I can't vouch for it, but being facebook I have my little doubts.

This is the key question.
What does Whatsapp do with the contacts database it so desperately wants.

> What I know that whatsapp doesn't do is send an email or sms to your
> contacts asking them to join - a practice that I have seen before in
> other software, perhaps facebook and others. That was long ago.

It would be nice to find out what Whatsapp _does_ with our contacts.

> All it apparently does, locally, is scan your system contact list and
> display in whatsap list those that do have whatsap. For this, obviously
> it has to query whatsap servers to find "is this number in our list of
> clients"? You might consider this intrusive, but it is a needed feature
> and other messaging apps do have similar features.

For me, it only needs to "scan" the single person I am contacting.
Nobody else.

> What they can't do is store in the servers the numbers that were queried
> (and were not clients already), AFAIK.

That may be the case in the EU (and that would be great if it is), but we
need to better figure out whether that also applies to USA Whatsapp owners.

> In your case, as you only have one number in the contact list, and that
> number is obviously known to whatsap servers (being a client), there is
> no issue at all. You don't _need_ to bother.

My contacts list is actually empty (there's not even one contact in it).
I can directly dial anyone via WhatsApp with the apps that I installed.

BTW only one of the three is needed; I just tested them to see if they work.

Dialer For WhatsApp & WA-enabled Businesses List, by Applaud Soft
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.applaudsoft.wabi.wad>
Click to chat [small, no ads], by TrianguloY
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.trianguloy.openInWhatsapp>
WhatsDirect - Direct Message for WhatsApp, by BlendTap Inc.
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.andrd.wadirectmessage>

>> None of those work if the other person doesn't _also_ use them, but this
>> person is using Whatsapp because her friends & relatives in Europe use it.
>
> So do we us all :-)

Yup. I am forced to use Whatsapp so _they_ aren't charged when I call/text.
Luckily, with these workarounds, my contact list privacy is maintained.

It would be nice if others supply better workarounds for Whatsapp privacy.
--
If everyone solved every problem and published the solution so that others
could improve upon it even further, we'd all be more efficient on Android.

AJL wrote on 31.07.2021 19:53
> I've only ever heard of one person that worries about his contact list
> privacy to the point that he won't use it. Everybody else I know uses it
> normally and (gasp) I'm likely entered on many of them. So even if I
> played the paranoid part I doubt it would make very much difference in
> anybody's security.

I don't disagree with you that a lot of people are ignorant, and rude.

It's rude to do certain things, like, oh, let your dog poop on other
people's lawns, or to post your neighbors' kids pictures on Facebook.

*It's rude to upload other people's contact information to Whatsapp.*
Just as it's rude to upload other people's WI-FI information to Google.

In addition, most people are ignorant they're doing all this by default.

Therefore, I fully & completely agree with you that most people are both.
a. Ignorant
b. Rude

You can be like most people but I'm trying to _not_ be like most people.

That's why I posted how to use Whatsapp _without_ giving them your contacts.
All I'm asking in this thread, is for even better privacy improvements!

>> Another option might be to log into the phone with a different
>> android user, or guest user (I have this option with android 10), so
>> with different contacts list.
>
> When the wife got her iPhone 12 I kept the old 8 for a spare. To play
> with it occasionally (on WiFi) I have it signed in with my fake name Apple
> account. And there are no contacts...

Unfortunately, on iOS, _everything_ you do is connected to your Apple
account, whereas on Android, that huge privacy hole doesn't even exist.

Unlike iOS without an Apple account, Android works without a Google Account.
This is an astoundingly huge privacy hole Apple never tells anyone about.
--
On Android, when we find a solution, we don't stop: We improve it further.

In article <se44mq$4d5$1@gioia.aioe.org>, paul <nospam@nospam.invalid>
wrote:

>
> You can be like most people but I'm trying to _not_ be like most people.

you're very successful with that, just not in the way you might hope.

> Unfortunately, on iOS, _everything_ you do is connected to your Apple
> account, whereas on Android, that huge privacy hole doesn't even exist.

false.

AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:
> Richmond wrote:
>
> > I think ultimately names and numbers are going to be out there, if
> > not via whatsapp then via google contacts or whatever.
>
> I've only ever heard of one person that worries about his contact list
> privacy to the point that he won't use it. Everybody else I know uses it
> normally and (gasp) I'm likely entered on many of them. So even if I
> played the paranoid part I doubt it would make very much difference in
> anybody's security.
>
Well, unless that was me, I have no entries in Contacts. I keep my
address list elsewhere.

--
Chris Green
·

Chris Green wrote:
> AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:

>> I've only ever heard of one person that worries about his contact
>> list privacy to the point that he won't use it. Everybody else I
>> know uses it normally and (gasp) I'm likely entered on many of
>> them. So even if I played the paranoid part I doubt it would make
>> very much difference in anybody's security.

> Well, unless that was me, I have no entries in Contacts. I keep my
> address list elsewhere.

That makes 2 then. But likely you and folks in your address list are
already in many many regular phone contact lists. So you're probably
wasting your time if your separate address list is only for security
reasons.

On 31/07/2021 20.20, paul wrote:
> Carlos E. R. wrote on 31.07.2021 19:44
>> Yes, I seem to recall having to install external apps that would tell
>> whatsap to start a chat on whatever number not in the contact list, but
>> I do not like the idea.
>
> Hi Carlos,
>
> It's nice to be able to carry on a civil conversation, where I can learn
> from you (I'm always a mirror of intent)since you use Whatsapp more than we
> do in the USA (for the obvious reasons that you get charged for text/calls).
>
> Just to be clear, the apps I chose are all free & ad free, and all but one
> is GSF free, so they're not intrusive, and, better yet, I believe they can
> be _uninstalled_ once they add the one contact to the WhatsApp application.
>
>> My issue is not privacy, but contacting (for instance) a repair man that
>> is coming to my home and wants to see a photo of what he is going to
>> repair, or my location (two things for which we use whatsap), and I'm
>> never again going to contact this person, so no real want to have him in
>> my contact list. And it adds a delay.
>
> I can fully agree with what you say, and, in fact, one of the apps I listed
> is expressly for that purpose of contacting people _not_ in your contacts.
>
>> So far, it happens so few times that I just add the contact with a
>> "temporary" prefix. It helps to know why I have that chat in my list of
>> chats.
>
> Adding a temporary contact certainly would work (which is what I did).
>
> But I suspect it's even easier to use one of the apps I unearthed because
> once they add the contact to WhatsApp, I suspect you can _delete_ the apps.
>
> This is the temporary contact method:
> 1. Create a temporary contact
> 2. Add that person to Whatsapp
> 3. Delete the temporary contact

While I have the chat in whatsapp I want to keep the contact, so that
whatsap displays a name and not a number.

Reminds me. When I get a new chat from a person that is not in my
contact list, the entry gets the phone number, not the name. IF the
whatsap servers had the contact list of every client and used it, they
would instantly know the contact name of that person and could display
it on my phone. They don't.

Of course, they could have the data and not use it. Keep it "private" to
each person account and refrain from using it. This could be admisible
within the privacy rules of the EU (if they also have a proper set of
safeguards for safekeeping the information).

> This is the temporary adding method:
> 1. Install the workaround app
> 2. Use that workaround app to add that person to Whatsapp
> 3. Delete the workaround app
>
> Since I don't even have a contacts sqlite database, the second approach
> works for me, but for people with a contacts list, the first might work.
>
>> Here, whatsap is a must have application. Everybody has it. Even people
>> of 90 years with abilities use it.
>
> Understood.
> The only thing I don't like about the temporary contacts trick is that most
> people don't have an empty contacts sqlite database like I do, so they're
> still providing a window to Whatapp of _all_ their contacts.
>
> Whether or not Whatsapp _keeps_ that window of all contacts, I don't know.
>
>>> Is that contacts.sqlite database _uploaded_ to WhatsApp servers nowadays?
>>
>> I can't vouch for it, but being facebook I have my little doubts.
>
> This is the key question.
> What does Whatsapp do with the contacts database it so desperately wants.
>
>> What I know that whatsapp doesn't do is send an email or sms to your
>> contacts asking them to join - a practice that I have seen before in
>> other software, perhaps facebook and others. That was long ago.
>
> It would be nice to find out what Whatsapp _does_ with our contacts.

AFAIK, the data has not been compared with my Facebook data. I mean, my
Facebook account doesn't know my phone, even though WhatsApp, which is a
Facebook owned application, knows it. And my Facebook profile has not
learned the phones and names or emails of my contacts. Of course, I
don't run Facebook in my phone: if I see it installed I remove it fast.
I run it on a separate profile in Firefox at my computer.

So they are not actively cross-checking this data.

We must remember that WA was not designed by Facebook, and some design
rules seem to apply.

....

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

nospam wrote on 31.07.2021 20:46
>> Unfortunately, on iOS, _everything_ you do is connected to your Apple
>> account, whereas on Android, that huge privacy hole doesn't even exist.
>
> false.

My job here is to help all of us arrive at the factual truth of things.
By working together to pool our knowledge of what is actual factual truth.

To that end, the thread showing how to use Whatsapp with contact privacy is:
Privacy question:
*Do you use WhatsApp _without_ contact access?*
<https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android/c/Sqng7AXMS5k>

The threads asking what privacy is exposed by having a home account are:
Privacy question:
*What is exposed to Apple by the iCloud account login requirement?*
<https://groups.google.com/g/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/c/3vVA3mwLVyY>

Privacy question:
*What privacy is exposed when you set Android to a Google Account?*
<https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android/c/4ehARiUaWkE>
--
Note Android works fine _without_ setting the phone to a Google Account,
whereas iOS is basically useless if you don't set it to an iCloud account.

paul <nospam@nospam.invalid> writes:

>> Another option might be to log into the phone with a different android
>> user, or guest user (I have this option with android 10), so with
>> different contacts list. Then delete the user afterwards. But it would
>> be tiresome and whatsapp still gets a name and number.
>
> I appreciate that suggestion but I don't "log into" the phone with any
> account, which is easy to do since Android doesn't require an account
> (note that iOS _does_ require an account, which is a huge privacy hole).

I am not talking about a web account or google account here, I am
talking about a user of the OS, like a user in linux, or a local user in
Windows.

In the settings for android 10 there is an option called "add users from
lock screen". If you enable this, then when the phone is locked, you can
swipe down and see a person logo, which you can then use to log in as a
guest, or add a new user. When you do this and log in, all the settings
are as they were when the phone was new.

AJL wrote on 31.07.2021 21:27
>>> I've only ever heard of one person that worries about his contact
>>> list privacy to the point that he won't use it. Everybody else I
>>> know uses it normally and (gasp) I'm likely entered on many of
>>> them. So even if I played the paranoid part I doubt it would make
>>> very much difference in anybody's security.
>
>> Well, unless that was me, I have no entries in Contacts. I keep my
>> address list elsewhere.
>
> That makes 2 then. But likely you and folks in your address list are
> already in many many regular phone contact lists. So you're probably
> wasting your time if your separate address list is only for security
> reasons.

While I agree with AJL that most people are both ignorant & rude, that
doesn't mean people like "Chris Green" and I must also be rude & ignorant.

Sure, it's more work to set up an Android phone to a zero sized contacts db.

But think about why Google & Facebook are so _desperate_ to access our
personal contacts.sqlite database before anyone condemns those of us who
don't easily hand over this information willy nilly to the mother ship.

All this thread is asking is for further privacy hints when using Whatsapp.
--
BTW, it's the same with setting up a phone to _not_ upload Wi-Fi AP data.

In article <se49ag$6le$1@gioia.aioe.org>, paul <nospam@nospam.invalid>
wrote:

>
> My job here is to troll

ftfy

Carlos E. R. wrote on 31.07.2021 21:40
> While I have the chat in whatsapp I want to keep the contact, so that
> whatsap displays a name and not a number.

Ah. Thank you for that additional information about contact _names_.

I hadn't even noticed that the Whatsapp for the non-contact person shows up
only as a number (as can be seen by this screenshot I made for you).
<https://i.postimg.cc/636XBckk/whatsapp01.jpg>

For my SMS/MMS app, I can _change_ the number to any name, but I didn't see
the ability to do that from within the Whatsapp application itself.

In my situation, that's fine because Whatsapp also shows the _picture_ of
that person, and, of course, I only have _one_ Whatsapp contact.

When I'm talking to that person on the phone, almost the entire phone screen
is a photo of her, as if I'm talking to her directly, all of which happened
automatically inside the Whatsapp application (i.e., I didn't set that up).

Even my homescreen icon to call that Whatsapp contact has her picture on it.
Even so, there _should_ be a way to _change_ the name of the Whatsapp
contact, just as I can change the name of my SMS/MMS contact even though I
don't have a contacts.sqlite database.

For example, maybe if I created the contact differently it would have a
name? Dunno. The contacts' picture takes up the Whatsapp screen anyway.

On 31/07/2021 23.34, paul wrote:
> Carlos E. R. wrote on 31.07.2021 21:40
>> While I have the chat in whatsapp I want to keep the contact, so that
>> whatsap displays a name and not a number.
>
> Ah. Thank you for that additional information about contact _names_.
>
> I hadn't even noticed that the Whatsapp for the non-contact person shows up
> only as a number (as can be seen by this screenshot I made for you).
> <https://i.postimg.cc/636XBckk/whatsapp01.jpg>
>
> For my SMS/MMS app, I can _change_ the number to any name, but I didn't see
> the ability to do that from within the Whatsapp application itself.

The name is the one in your contact list kept by Android. If the person
is not in the contact list, then his number.

Although in the USA you get the given name when some new person calls on
the fixed line, I don't know if that applies to phones, and if it does,
how it affects whatsap.

>
> In my situation, that's fine because Whatsapp also shows the _picture_ of
> that person, and, of course, I only have _one_ Whatsapp contact.

That photo is sent from whatsap servers, and the photo is the one that
the person puts in his/her whatsap profile. Many people do not put their
own photo: it can be an icon/avatar, a landscape, or typically in
mothers, their kids or grand kids (which is not proper).

Or a status icon. I have never used those.

>
> When I'm talking to that person on the phone, almost the entire phone screen
> is a photo of her, as if I'm talking to her directly, all of which happened
> automatically inside the Whatsapp application (i.e., I didn't set that up).
>
> Even my homescreen icon to call that Whatsapp contact has her picture on it.
> Even so, there _should_ be a way to _change_ the name of the Whatsapp
> contact, just as I can change the name of my SMS/MMS contact even though I
> don't have a contacts.sqlite database.

AFAIK, no. It is taken from the contact list, you can not change it on
whatsap as far as I remember.

>
> For example, maybe if I created the contact differently it would have a
> name? Dunno. The contacts' picture takes up the Whatsapp screen anyway.
>

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 31/07/2021 21.56, paul wrote:
> AJL wrote on 31.07.2021 21:27
>>>> I've only ever heard of one person that worries about his contact
>>>> list privacy to the point that he won't use it. Everybody else I
>>>> know uses it normally and (gasp) I'm likely entered on many of
>>>> them. So even if I played the paranoid part I doubt it would make
>>>> very much difference in anybody's security.
>>
>>> Well, unless that was me, I have no entries in Contacts. I keep my
>>> address list elsewhere.
>>
>> That makes 2 then. But likely you and folks in your address list are
>> already in many many regular phone contact lists. So you're probably
>> wasting your time if your separate address list is only for security
>> reasons.
>
> While I agree with AJL that most people are both ignorant & rude, that
> doesn't mean people like "Chris Green" and I must also be rude & ignorant.
>
> Sure, it's more work to set up an Android phone to a zero sized contacts db.
>
> But think about why Google & Facebook are so _desperate_ to access our
> personal contacts.sqlite database before anyone condemns those of us who
> don't easily hand over this information willy nilly to the mother ship.

But man, the access is local, nobody has found that the contact data is
sent to facebook. You can be paranoid about that, but you can not say
they have that data because nobody has that proof - and if they had that
proof, they would see facebook with a hefty fine in Europe instantly.

The only information we know that is sent is the clients numbers.

Then the phone queries all numbers in your contact list to see if they
are clients as well, but only the number is sent and the answer is a
simple yes or no. There is no other information exchanged.

So, even if they kept the numbers in your contact list as a result of
this query, they wouldn't know the names.

And you can find this out by reading their terms and conditions.

So no, we are not ignorant or rude by keeping our contact lists. We
simply trust those terms and conditions.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

"Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> writes:

>
> And you can find this out by reading their terms and conditions.
>

Have you read facebook's terms and conditions? Facebook wants to
integrate whatsapp and facebook messenger. To do that would mean someone
on facebook would be able to see which of their contacts was on whatsapp
or messenger. So then my phone number would be in the messenger database
without my agreement to facebook's terms and conditions.

Whatsapp did try to get agreement to new terms and conditions
recently. I think they will keep trying over time to get what they want
and they will eventually succeed in integrating the two platforms, when
presumably everyone is too warn down to resist anymore.

I am not sure about the names, I used to see names in faint text
alongside numbers where the numbers were not in my contacts. That
allowed me to create contacts so that they showed up properly. I guess
those names were given when people installed whatsapp.

On 01/08/2021 00.38, Richmond wrote:
> "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> writes:
>
>>
>> And you can find this out by reading their terms and conditions.
>>
>
> Have you read facebook's terms and conditions? Facebook wants to
> integrate whatsapp and facebook messenger. To do that would mean someone
> on facebook would be able to see which of their contacts was on whatsapp
> or messenger. So then my phone number would be in the messenger database
> without my agreement to facebook's terms and conditions.
>
> Whatsapp did try to get agreement to new terms and conditions
> recently. I think they will keep trying over time to get what they want
> and they will eventually succeed in integrating the two platforms, when
> presumably everyone is too warn down to resist anymore.

Fortunately, I live in the EU.

And if that happens, there are other platforms.

> I am not sure about the names, I used to see names in faint text
> alongside numbers where the numbers were not in my contacts. That
> allowed me to create contacts so that they showed up properly. I guess
> those names were given when people installed whatsapp.

I have seen that only in chat groups, not single contacts.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 7/31/2021 4:19 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

<snip>

> If you care about privacy, was Signal or Telegram instead.

Yes, that's the bottom line. Or use Google Messages with RCS, at least
on Android.

Once RCS is added to iOS it will make things a lot easier, hopefully RCS
support will be coming in a revision of iOS 15 since it isn't in the
beta. Or perhaps it will have to wait until iOS 16.

Everyone wants RCS, and it's not difficult to implement, but it's a
tricky marketing issue because it would have negative implications for
iMessage.

<https://appleinsider.com/articles/21/07/20/apple-holds-out-in-adopting-next-generation-rcs-texting-standard>

<https://www.imore.com/8-things-i-want-see-ios-15>

<https://www.androidpolice.com/2021/06/12/10-things-apple-should-have-changed-in-ios-15-but-didnt/>

Richmond wrote:
> I deleted whatsapp some time ago

I scrapped all such bloatware that came with my new phone right away.
That included faecesbook, whatsapp, twitter, instagram, google, etc.
Did the same on my wife's phone.

> but presumably your contact is on whatsapp and so you have to use it.

Just because one or more of my contacts are on whatsapp by no means
implies that i have to use it. I tell them to install signal (and why)
if they want to keep dm'ing with me, or get lost. I sure did help.

> Presumably she has your name in her contacts, so while you are protecting
> her privacy she is handing over your name and number to whatsapp.

Sure, but it's useless information.

-p

Am 01.08.21 um 11:03 schrieb Piet:
> Richmond wrote:
>> I deleted whatsapp some time ago
>
> I scrapped all such bloatware that came with my new phone right away.
> That included faecesbook, whatsapp, twitter, instagram, google, etc.
> Did the same on my wife's phone.

And you are not divorced yet?

>> but presumably your contact is on whatsapp and so you have to use it.
>
> Just because one or more of my contacts are on whatsapp by no means
> implies that i have to use it. I tell them to install signal (and why)
> if they want to keep dm'ing with me, or get lost. I sure did help.
>
>> Presumably she has your name in her contacts, so while you are protecting
>> her privacy she is handing over your name and number to whatsapp.
>
> Sure, but it's useless information.

No. It is not. It makes it much easier to track you on all your devices.
You are naive.

--
De gustibus non est disputandum