https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/02/18/was-the-felicity-ace-fire-caused-by-electric-vehicle-batteries/

On Sunday, February 20, 2022 at 11:20:46 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
> https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/02/18/was-the-felicity-ace-fire-caused-by-electric-vehicle-batteries/

Here goes the 'New Car Smell'! The manufacturers have already committed to supply each salvaged vehicle with a pack of these - free of charge:

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Little-Trees-Air-Fresheners-Royal-Pine-Fragrance-3-Pack/16879762

Uli
'AS'

But that's kinda like saying a meteor or lightening strike caused the fire: coulda happened but there is no evidence to support any of those. Now, once on fire, a parking lot full of EVs is going to be challenging for sure to put out....
On Sunday, February 20, 2022 at 8:20:46 PM UTC-8, 2G wrote:
> https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/02/18/was-the-felicity-ace-fire-caused-by-electric-vehicle-batteries/

Is the energy release from a LiIon fire mostly from the charge, or does
a lot also come from the battery components.

Would it be significantly safer to ship them mostly discharged?

Probably not:

"State-of-charge is a poor predictor of fire hazard for
different batteries and cell chemistries"

From this, with lots of data & pictures:
https://www.fire.tc.faa.gov/pdf/systems/May15Meeting/Lyon-0515-batteryheatrelease.pdf

On 2/21/22 11:24 AM, Stuart Venters wrote:
> Is the energy release from a LiIon fire mostly from the charge, or does a lot also come from the battery components.
>
> Would it be significantly safer to ship them mostly discharged?

Tire fires really suck too - and have been a thing for quite some time - but people keep right on buying cars.

https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/3tkfg0/fire_in_the_largest_tire_graveyard_in_the_world/

Airplane crashes also suck, and get a lot more news coverage than cargo ship accidents (because ordinary civilians die), but people keep on flying.

I seriously doubt a ship fire in the middle of the Atlantic of unknown origin filled with vehicles of yet-to-be-determined mix between EVs and other types will alter the soaring (pun) demand for EVs. WattsUpWithThat is a tinfoil hat website for people who don't like that climate change is a thing, so it's not surprising they'd try to make something out of this. Yawn. The rapid rate of technical innovation in EVs ultimately will produce less expensive cars with improved battery chemistries and motor designs that increase range, recharge faster and will be made made from better, cheaper and more plentiful raw materials. Then the game will be over, because they will be cheaper to build and maintain. Stay tuned for that.

As to relevance to gliding (oh, that). Obviously a good BMS is essential for electric gliders, but they seem to be catching on more than they are catching on fire.

Andy Blackburn
9B

On Monday, February 21, 2022 at 8:14:16 AM UTC-8, jfitch wrote:
> But that's kinda like saying a meteor or lightening strike caused the fire: coulda happened but there is no evidence to support any of those. Now, once on fire, a parking lot full of EVs is going to be challenging for sure to put out....
> On Sunday, February 20, 2022 at 8:20:46 PM UTC-8, 2G wrote:
> > https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/02/18/was-the-felicity-ace-fire-caused-by-electric-vehicle-batteries/

On Monday, February 21, 2022 at 11:17:51 AM UTC-8, anderson....@gmail.com wrote:
> Tire fires really suck too - and have been a thing for quite some time - but people keep right on buying cars.
>
> https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/3tkfg0/fire_in_the_largest_tire_graveyard_in_the_world/
>
> Airplane crashes also suck, and get a lot more news coverage than cargo ship accidents (because ordinary civilians die), but people keep on flying.
>
> I seriously doubt a ship fire in the middle of the Atlantic of unknown origin filled with vehicles of yet-to-be-determined mix between EVs and other types will alter the soaring (pun) demand for EVs. WattsUpWithThat is a tinfoil hat website for people who don't like that climate change is a thing, so it's not surprising they'd try to make something out of this. Yawn. The rapid rate of technical innovation in EVs ultimately will produce less expensive cars with improved battery chemistries and motor designs that increase range, recharge faster and will be made made from better, cheaper and more plentiful raw materials. Then the game will be over, because they will be cheaper to build and maintain. Stay tuned for that.
>
> As to relevance to gliding (oh, that). Obviously a good BMS is essential for electric gliders, but they seem to be catching on more than they are catching on fire.
>
> Andy Blackburn
> 9B
> On Monday, February 21, 2022 at 8:14:16 AM UTC-8, jfitch wrote:
> > But that's kinda like saying a meteor or lightening strike caused the fire: coulda happened but there is no evidence to support any of those. Now, once on fire, a parking lot full of EVs is going to be challenging for sure to put out....
> > On Sunday, February 20, 2022 at 8:20:46 PM UTC-8, 2G wrote:
> > > https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/02/18/was-the-felicity-ace-fire-caused-by-electric-vehicle-batteries/

Notice that Andy did not point out ANY fault with the article, just did a childish attack on the website that published a guest essay by Eric Worrall. This is a typical response from the greenies...

On Thursday, February 24, 2022 at 6:46:43 PM UTC-8, 2G wrote:
> On Monday, February 21, 2022 at 11:17:51 AM UTC-8, anderson....@gmail.com wrote:
> > Tire fires really suck too - and have been a thing for quite some time - but people keep right on buying cars.
> >
> > https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/3tkfg0/fire_in_the_largest_tire_graveyard_in_the_world/
> >
> > Airplane crashes also suck, and get a lot more news coverage than cargo ship accidents (because ordinary civilians die), but people keep on flying..
> >
> > I seriously doubt a ship fire in the middle of the Atlantic of unknown origin filled with vehicles of yet-to-be-determined mix between EVs and other types will alter the soaring (pun) demand for EVs. WattsUpWithThat is a tinfoil hat website for people who don't like that climate change is a thing, so it's not surprising they'd try to make something out of this. Yawn. The rapid rate of technical innovation in EVs ultimately will produce less expensive cars with improved battery chemistries and motor designs that increase range, recharge faster and will be made made from better, cheaper and more plentiful raw materials. Then the game will be over, because they will be cheaper to build and maintain. Stay tuned for that.
> >
> > As to relevance to gliding (oh, that). Obviously a good BMS is essential for electric gliders, but they seem to be catching on more than they are catching on fire.
> >
> > Andy Blackburn
> > 9B
> > On Monday, February 21, 2022 at 8:14:16 AM UTC-8, jfitch wrote:
> > > But that's kinda like saying a meteor or lightening strike caused the fire: coulda happened but there is no evidence to support any of those. Now, once on fire, a parking lot full of EVs is going to be challenging for sure to put out....
> > > On Sunday, February 20, 2022 at 8:20:46 PM UTC-8, 2G wrote:
> > > > https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/02/18/was-the-felicity-ace-fire-caused-by-electric-vehicle-batteries/
> Notice that Andy did not point out ANY fault with the article, just did a childish attack on the website that published a guest essay by Eric Worrall. This is a typical response from the greenies...

The fire continues to burn, generating large quantities of white smoke:
https://gcaptain.com/felicity-ace-response-stretches-into-second-week-as-fire-continues-to-burn/
A gasoline fire generates black smoke from unburned hydrocarbons; white smoke is characteristic of a lithium battery fire (the combustible electrolytes):
https://publikationen.dguv.de/widgets/pdf/download/article/3926#:~:text=The%20smoke%20produced%20by%20a,gray%20smoke)%20is%20blown%20off.
Other photos of the ship show large sections of the steel plate completely gone, melted away by the intense heat of the fire:
https://www.autoweek.com/news/industry-news/a39181217/felicity-ace-ship-fire-is-out-but-why-do-car-carriers-have-such-trouble/
This underscores that when a lithium battery ignites it is going to burn until the entire battery is consumed. Poring water on it could do more harm than good by generating significant quantities of hydrogen gas.

If you are airborne and a lithium battery catches fire your only option may be to jump (assuming that you have the altitude to do so, unlike the pilot of the Taurus Electro in NZ).

On 2/25/2022 1:56 PM, 2G wrote:
> This underscores that when a lithium battery ignites it is going to burn until the entire battery is consumed. Poring water on it could do more harm than good by generating significant quantities of hydrogen gas.
>
> If you are airborne and a lithium battery catches fire your only option may be to jump (assuming that you have the altitude to do so, unlike the pilot of the Taurus Electro in NZ).

There were major changes made in certification requirements for electric gliders that will
prevent that kind of disaster in the future. Of course, all Taurus Electros now meet those
new standards, as do glider produced since then.

How much of the battery burns depends very much on the battery chemistry and it's
enclosure. There are many studies of lithium batteries that show the fire can be limited
to a single cell when using cylindrical, metal encased cells, such as the 16850 type and
similar that are used in most of the electric gliders being sold today. The gases from the
burning cell can be kept out of the cockpit to avoid harming the pilot, allowing the pilot
to make a landing ASAP. In that situation, the lower the glider, the quicker it can be
landed.

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

On Friday, February 25, 2022 at 3:52:37 PM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> On 2/25/2022 1:56 PM, 2G wrote:
> > This underscores that when a lithium battery ignites it is going to burn until the entire battery is consumed. Poring water on it could do more harm than good by generating significant quantities of hydrogen gas.
> >
> > If you are airborne and a lithium battery catches fire your only option may be to jump (assuming that you have the altitude to do so, unlike the pilot of the Taurus Electro in NZ).
> There were major changes made in certification requirements for electric gliders that will
> prevent that kind of disaster in the future. Of course, all Taurus Electros now meet those
> new standards, as do glider produced since then.
>
> How much of the battery burns depends very much on the battery chemistry and it's
> enclosure. There are many studies of lithium batteries that show the fire can be limited
> to a single cell when using cylindrical, metal encased cells, such as the 16850 type and
> similar that are used in most of the electric gliders being sold today. The gases from the
> burning cell can be kept out of the cockpit to avoid harming the pilot, allowing the pilot
> to make a landing ASAP. In that situation, the lower the glider, the quicker it can be
> landed.
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - USA
> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

What Li-ion battery packs are using a separate enclosure for each cell (I don't know of any)? Did you look at those photos of the Felicity Ace? Very large sections of steel plate are completely gone. I would want to see how effective such an enclosure is at containing the thermal runaway and limiting it to that cell. Such an enclosure will add size and weight to the battery, which is already very heavy for airborne applications. It would also have to have holes for the electrical wires, which provide a route of escape for heat, fire, and toxic gases.

Electric gliders have already been designed and are being produced - what do we know about their battery packs?

Tom

On 2/26/22 00:10, 2G wrote:
> On Friday, February 25, 2022 at 3:52:37 PM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> On 2/25/2022 1:56 PM, 2G wrote:
>>> This underscores that when a lithium battery ignites it is going to burn until the entire battery is consumed. Poring water on it could do more harm than good by generating significant quantities of hydrogen gas.
>>>
>>> If you are airborne and a lithium battery catches fire your only option may be to jump (assuming that you have the altitude to do so, unlike the pilot of the Taurus Electro in NZ).
>> There were major changes made in certification requirements for electric gliders that will
>> prevent that kind of disaster in the future. Of course, all Taurus Electros now meet those
>> new standards, as do glider produced since then.
>>
>> How much of the battery burns depends very much on the battery chemistry and it's
>> enclosure. There are many studies of lithium batteries that show the fire can be limited
>> to a single cell when using cylindrical, metal encased cells, such as the 16850 type and
>> similar that are used in most of the electric gliders being sold today. The gases from the
>> burning cell can be kept out of the cockpit to avoid harming the pilot, allowing the pilot
>> to make a landing ASAP. In that situation, the lower the glider, the quicker it can be
>> landed.
>>
>> --
>> Eric Greenwell - USA
>> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
>> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
>
> What Li-ion battery packs are using a separate enclosure for each cell (I don't know of any)? Did you look at those photos of the Felicity Ace? Very large sections of steel plate are completely gone. I would want to see how effective such an enclosure is at containing the thermal runaway and limiting it to that cell. Such an enclosure will add size and weight to the battery, which is already very heavy for airborne applications. It would also have to have holes for the electrical wires, which provide a route of escape for heat, fire, and toxic gases.
>
> Electric gliders have already been designed and are being produced - what do we know about their battery packs?
>
> Tom

Eric was saying the case of the 18650 is enough to stop the spread of
thermal runway from one cell to another. Someone forgot to tell Elon
about that, because a number of Tesla's using 18650's have burned.
Looks like more than a single cell failed here:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/08/04/tesla-fire/

The Electro Taurus also uses small cylindrical metal cells. Didn't stop
one from burning up.

On 2/26/2022 7:55 AM, kinsell wrote:
> On 2/26/22 00:10, 2G wrote:
>> On Friday, February 25, 2022 at 3:52:37 PM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>>> On 2/25/2022 1:56 PM, 2G wrote:
>>>> This underscores that when a lithium battery ignites it is going to burn until the
>>>> entire battery is consumed. Poring water on it could do more harm than good by
>>>> generating significant quantities of hydrogen gas.
>>>>
>>>> If you are airborne and a lithium battery catches fire your only option may be to jump
>>>> (assuming that you have the altitude to do so, unlike the pilot of the Taurus Electro
>>>> in NZ).
>>> There were major changes made in certification requirements for electric gliders that will
>>> prevent that kind of disaster in the future. Of course, all Taurus Electros now meet those
>>> new standards, as do glider produced since then.
>>>
>>> How much of the battery burns depends very much on the battery chemistry and it's
>>> enclosure. There are many studies of lithium batteries that show the fire can be limited
>>> to a single cell when using cylindrical, metal encased cells, such as the 16850 type and
>>> similar that are used in most of the electric gliders being sold today. The gases from the
>>> burning cell can be kept out of the cockpit to avoid harming the pilot, allowing the pilot
>>> to make a landing ASAP. In that situation, the lower the glider, the quicker it can be
>>> landed.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Eric Greenwell - USA
>>> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
>>> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
>>
>> What Li-ion battery packs are using a separate enclosure for each cell (I don't know of
>> any)? Did you look at those photos of the Felicity Ace? Very large sections of steel
>> plate are completely gone. I would want to see how effective such an enclosure is at
>> containing the thermal runaway and limiting it to that cell. Such an enclosure will add
>> size and weight to the battery, which is already very heavy for airborne applications.
>> It would also have to have holes for the electrical wires, which provide a route of
>> escape for heat, fire, and toxic gases.
>>
>> Electric gliders have already been designed and are being produced - what do we know
>> about their battery packs?
>>
>> Tom
>
> Eric was saying the case of the 18650 is enough to stop the spread of thermal runway from
> one cell to another.  Someone forgot to tell Elon about that, because a number of Tesla's
> using 18650's have burned. Looks like more than a single cell failed here:
>
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/08/04/tesla-fire/
>
> The Electro Taurus also uses small cylindrical metal cells.  Didn't stop one from burning up.

Eric was saying "There are many studies of lithium batteries that show the fire can be
limited to a single cell when using cylindrical, metal encased cells, such as the 16850
type and similar that are used in most of the electric gliders being sold today." Please
note the "can be", which is not the same as "will be". The details of the implementation
matter very much, and Tesla's design is very different from the designs used in electric
gliders.

The Taurus Electro used pouch cells, not cylindrical cells. Pouch cells do not have a
metal case, and are more vulnerable to damage and debris; further, their stacked packaging
makes it more difficult to prevent heat and fire from propagating to a neighboring cell.

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Maybe the future of EVs' of varying sorts?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEvR3kyx_KM

On 2/25/2022 11:10 PM, 2G wrote:
> On Friday, February 25, 2022 at 3:52:37 PM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> On 2/25/2022 1:56 PM, 2G wrote:
>>> This underscores that when a lithium battery ignites it is going to burn until the entire battery is consumed. Poring water on it could do more harm than good by generating significant quantities of hydrogen gas.
>>>
>>> If you are airborne and a lithium battery catches fire your only option may be to jump (assuming that you have the altitude to do so, unlike the pilot of the Taurus Electro in NZ).
>> There were major changes made in certification requirements for electric gliders that will
>> prevent that kind of disaster in the future. Of course, all Taurus Electros now meet those
>> new standards, as do glider produced since then.
>>
>> How much of the battery burns depends very much on the battery chemistry and it's
>> enclosure. There are many studies of lithium batteries that show the fire can be limited
>> to a single cell when using cylindrical, metal encased cells, such as the 16850 type and
>> similar that are used in most of the electric gliders being sold today. The gases from the
>> burning cell can be kept out of the cockpit to avoid harming the pilot, allowing the pilot
>> to make a landing ASAP. In that situation, the lower the glider, the quicker it can be
>> landed.
>>
>> --
>> Eric Greenwell - USA
>> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
>> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
>
> What Li-ion battery packs are using a separate enclosure for each cell (I don't know of any)? Did you look at those photos of the Felicity Ace? Very large sections of steel plate are completely gone. I would want to see how effective such an enclosure is at containing the thermal runaway and limiting it to that cell. Such an enclosure will add size and weight to the battery, which is already very heavy for airborne applications. It would also have to have holes for the electrical wires, which provide a route of escape for heat, fire, and toxic gases.
>
> Electric gliders have already been designed and are being produced - what do we know about their battery packs?
>

I used the word "enclosure" to include the metal can containing the lithium cell. Packs
are made by assembling the cylindrical cells together in various ways. Electric gliders
using cylindrical cells use long, skinny packs for mounting in wings, and compact,
semi-rectangular packs for fuselage mounting. Schleicher uses both types. Here are pages
with drawings of the two different styles:

https://www.alexander-schleicher.de/en/flugzeuge/asg-32-el/
https://www.alexander-schleicher.de/en/flugzeuge/as-34-me/

There was a detailed article on the ASG 32 EL and the batteries in Soaring magazine 3 or 4
years ago, and a followup article sometime later (or maybe followup was an SSA convention
presentation). Search the archives for it. Or maybe you can find references to them on
RAS, as both articles have been mentioned here in the last couple years.

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

On Saturday, February 26, 2022 at 11:34:05 AM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> On 2/25/2022 11:10 PM, 2G wrote:
> > On Friday, February 25, 2022 at 3:52:37 PM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> >> On 2/25/2022 1:56 PM, 2G wrote:
> >>> This underscores that when a lithium battery ignites it is going to burn until the entire battery is consumed. Poring water on it could do more harm than good by generating significant quantities of hydrogen gas.
> >>>
> >>> If you are airborne and a lithium battery catches fire your only option may be to jump (assuming that you have the altitude to do so, unlike the pilot of the Taurus Electro in NZ).
> >> There were major changes made in certification requirements for electric gliders that will
> >> prevent that kind of disaster in the future. Of course, all Taurus Electros now meet those
> >> new standards, as do glider produced since then.
> >>
> >> How much of the battery burns depends very much on the battery chemistry and it's
> >> enclosure. There are many studies of lithium batteries that show the fire can be limited
> >> to a single cell when using cylindrical, metal encased cells, such as the 16850 type and
> >> similar that are used in most of the electric gliders being sold today.. The gases from the
> >> burning cell can be kept out of the cockpit to avoid harming the pilot, allowing the pilot
> >> to make a landing ASAP. In that situation, the lower the glider, the quicker it can be
> >> landed.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Eric Greenwell - USA
> >> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> >> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
> >
> > What Li-ion battery packs are using a separate enclosure for each cell (I don't know of any)? Did you look at those photos of the Felicity Ace? Very large sections of steel plate are completely gone. I would want to see how effective such an enclosure is at containing the thermal runaway and limiting it to that cell. Such an enclosure will add size and weight to the battery, which is already very heavy for airborne applications. It would also have to have holes for the electrical wires, which provide a route of escape for heat, fire, and toxic gases.
> >
> > Electric gliders have already been designed and are being produced - what do we know about their battery packs?
> >
> I used the word "enclosure" to include the metal can containing the lithium cell. Packs
> are made by assembling the cylindrical cells together in various ways. Electric gliders
> using cylindrical cells use long, skinny packs for mounting in wings, and compact,
> semi-rectangular packs for fuselage mounting. Schleicher uses both types. Here are pages
> with drawings of the two different styles:
>
> https://www.alexander-schleicher.de/en/flugzeuge/asg-32-el/
> https://www.alexander-schleicher.de/en/flugzeuge/as-34-me/
>
> There was a detailed article on the ASG 32 EL and the batteries in Soaring magazine 3 or 4
> years ago, and a followup article sometime later (or maybe followup was an SSA convention
> presentation). Search the archives for it. Or maybe you can find references to them on
> RAS, as both articles have been mentioned here in the last couple years.
> --
> Eric Greenwell - USA
> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

It certainly looks like new designs are using cylindrical cells. But there are a number of FES gliders out there that use prismatic, or pouch, cells. There is nothing on Schleicher's website about failure testing of their battery packs.

I have not read the articles you mentioned, but would need a publishing date to do that. I would have thought that you would have archived them.

Tom

On Saturday, February 26, 2022 at 3:56:39 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
> On Saturday, February 26, 2022 at 11:34:05 AM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > On 2/25/2022 11:10 PM, 2G wrote:
> > > On Friday, February 25, 2022 at 3:52:37 PM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > >> On 2/25/2022 1:56 PM, 2G wrote:
> > >>> This underscores that when a lithium battery ignites it is going to burn until the entire battery is consumed. Poring water on it could do more harm than good by generating significant quantities of hydrogen gas.
> > >>>
> > >>> If you are airborne and a lithium battery catches fire your only option may be to jump (assuming that you have the altitude to do so, unlike the pilot of the Taurus Electro in NZ).
> > >> There were major changes made in certification requirements for electric gliders that will
> > >> prevent that kind of disaster in the future. Of course, all Taurus Electros now meet those
> > >> new standards, as do glider produced since then.
> > >>
> > >> How much of the battery burns depends very much on the battery chemistry and it's
> > >> enclosure. There are many studies of lithium batteries that show the fire can be limited
> > >> to a single cell when using cylindrical, metal encased cells, such as the 16850 type and
> > >> similar that are used in most of the electric gliders being sold today. The gases from the
> > >> burning cell can be kept out of the cockpit to avoid harming the pilot, allowing the pilot
> > >> to make a landing ASAP. In that situation, the lower the glider, the quicker it can be
> > >> landed.
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> Eric Greenwell - USA
> > >> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> > >> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
> > >
> > > What Li-ion battery packs are using a separate enclosure for each cell (I don't know of any)? Did you look at those photos of the Felicity Ace? Very large sections of steel plate are completely gone. I would want to see how effective such an enclosure is at containing the thermal runaway and limiting it to that cell. Such an enclosure will add size and weight to the battery, which is already very heavy for airborne applications. It would also have to have holes for the electrical wires, which provide a route of escape for heat, fire, and toxic gases.
> > >
> > > Electric gliders have already been designed and are being produced - what do we know about their battery packs?
> > >
> > I used the word "enclosure" to include the metal can containing the lithium cell. Packs
> > are made by assembling the cylindrical cells together in various ways. Electric gliders
> > using cylindrical cells use long, skinny packs for mounting in wings, and compact,
> > semi-rectangular packs for fuselage mounting. Schleicher uses both types. Here are pages
> > with drawings of the two different styles:
> >
> > https://www.alexander-schleicher.de/en/flugzeuge/asg-32-el/
> > https://www.alexander-schleicher.de/en/flugzeuge/as-34-me/
> >
> > There was a detailed article on the ASG 32 EL and the batteries in Soaring magazine 3 or 4
> > years ago, and a followup article sometime later (or maybe followup was an SSA convention
> > presentation). Search the archives for it. Or maybe you can find references to them on
> > RAS, as both articles have been mentioned here in the last couple years..
> > --
> > Eric Greenwell - USA
> > - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> > https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
> It certainly looks like new designs are using cylindrical cells. But there are a number of FES gliders out there that use prismatic, or pouch, cells.. There is nothing on Schleicher's website about failure testing of their battery packs.
>
> I have not read the articles you mentioned, but would need a publishing date to do that. I would have thought that you would have archived them.
>
> Tom

The article was in the Feb 2018 issue of Soaring.
Very informative.
UH

On 2/26/2022 12:56 PM, 2G wrote:
> It certainly looks like new designs are using cylindrical cells. But there are a number of FES gliders out there that use prismatic, or pouch, cells. There is nothing on Schleicher's website about failure testing of their battery packs.

FES powered gliders all use pouch type batteries, according the FES website. I'm not aware
of any glider using prismatic cells, which are similar to pouch cells with a metal
case/enclosure. Factoid: The 12v, 200AH LFP battery in my motorhome uses prismatic cells,
but weight and size are not the issue for motorhomes; oddly, the same brand 12V, 100AH
battery does use pouch cells :^)

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

On Saturday, February 26, 2022 at 2:26:07 PM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> On 2/26/2022 12:56 PM, 2G wrote:
> > It certainly looks like new designs are using cylindrical cells. But there are a number of FES gliders out there that use prismatic, or pouch, cells. There is nothing on Schleicher's website about failure testing of their battery packs.
> FES powered gliders all use pouch type batteries, according the FES website. I'm not aware
> of any glider using prismatic cells, which are similar to pouch cells with a metal
> case/enclosure. Factoid: The 12v, 200AH LFP battery in my motorhome uses prismatic cells,
> but weight and size are not the issue for motorhomes; oddly, the same brand 12V, 100AH
> battery does use pouch cells :^)
> --
> Eric Greenwell - USA
> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

The Felicity Ace has now sunk, taking the evidence of what started the fire with it (barring onboard data recorders that were saved by the crew during evacuation). EVs are shipped with the batteries fully charged because of their short range. Gas cars are shipped with the tanks 1/4 full, more than enough to get them to the dealer. EVs are like potential bombs awaiting a trigger. Imagine a parking lot full of EVs - one catches fire which results in a chain reaction where there entire parking lot goes up in flames from cascading battery fires. This is a time bomb waiting to happen as more EVs are put into service.

Tom

On 3/6/2022 10:02 AM, 2G wrote:
> On Saturday, February 26, 2022 at 2:26:07 PM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> On 2/26/2022 12:56 PM, 2G wrote:
>>> It certainly looks like new designs are using cylindrical cells. But there are a number of FES gliders out there that use prismatic, or pouch, cells. There is nothing on Schleicher's website about failure testing of their battery packs.
>> FES powered gliders all use pouch type batteries, according the FES website. I'm not aware
>> of any glider using prismatic cells, which are similar to pouch cells with a metal
>> case/enclosure. Factoid: The 12v, 200AH LFP battery in my motorhome uses prismatic cells,
>> but weight and size are not the issue for motorhomes; oddly, the same brand 12V, 100AH
>> battery does use pouch cells :^)
>> --
>> Eric Greenwell - USA
>> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
>> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
>
> The Felicity Ace has now sunk, taking the evidence of what started the fire with it (barring onboard data recorders that were saved by the crew during evacuation). EVs are shipped with the batteries fully charged because of their short range. Gas cars are shipped with the tanks 1/4 full, more than enough to get them to the dealer. EVs are like potential bombs awaiting a trigger. Imagine a parking lot full of EVs - one catches fire which results in a chain reaction where there entire parking lot goes up in flames from cascading battery fires. This is a time bomb waiting to happen as more EVs are put into service.
>
> Tom
"Short range" seems like an inadequate reason, given that those electric vehicle had 200+
mile ranges if fully charged, and the gas cars didn't have a 200 mile range with only a
quarter tank.

Here's another fire involving a huge number of closely parked vehicles, most of which did
not have any range at all:

https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/fraserway-rv-fire-toxic-smoke

I remember Dick Johnson reportedly saying something like he did not keep his glider in the
club hangar, because some day it was going burn down, and his glider would not be in it.
And one day it did burn down. Does anyone remember that?

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Well, the ocean isn't that deep...

Dan
5J

On 3/6/22 14:38, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> On 3/6/2022 10:02 AM, 2G wrote:
>> On Saturday, February 26, 2022 at 2:26:07 PM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell
>> wrote:
>>> On 2/26/2022 12:56 PM, 2G wrote:
>>>> It certainly looks like new designs are using cylindrical cells.
>>>> But there are a number of FES gliders out there that use prismatic,
>>>> or pouch, cells. There is nothing on Schleicher's website about
>>>> failure testing of their battery packs.
>>> FES powered gliders all use pouch type batteries, according the FES
>>> website. I'm not aware
>>> of any glider using prismatic cells, which are similar to pouch
>>> cells with a metal
>>> case/enclosure. Factoid: The 12v, 200AH LFP battery in my motorhome
>>> uses prismatic cells,
>>> but weight and size are not the issue for motorhomes; oddly, the
>>> same brand 12V, 100AH
>>> battery does use pouch cells :^)
>>> --
>>> Eric Greenwell - USA
>>> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
>>> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
>>
>> The Felicity Ace has now sunk, taking the evidence of what started
>> the fire with it (barring onboard data recorders that were saved by
>> the crew during evacuation). EVs are shipped with the batteries fully
>> charged because of their short range. Gas cars are shipped with the
>> tanks 1/4 full, more than enough to get them to the dealer. EVs are
>> like potential bombs awaiting a trigger. Imagine a parking lot full
>> of EVs - one catches fire which results in a chain reaction where
>> there entire parking lot goes up in flames from cascading battery
>> fires. This is a time bomb waiting to happen as more EVs are put into
>> service.
>>
>> Tom
> "Short range" seems like an inadequate reason, given that those
> electric vehicle had 200+ mile ranges if fully charged, and the gas
> cars didn't have a 200 mile range with only a quarter tank.
>
> Here's another fire involving a huge number of closely parked
> vehicles, most of which did not have any range at all:
>
> https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/fraserway-rv-fire-toxic-smoke
>
> I remember Dick Johnson reportedly saying something like he did not
> keep his glider in the club hangar, because some day it was going burn
> down, and his glider would not be in it. And one day it did burn down.
> Does anyone remember that?
>

On Sunday, March 6, 2022 at 1:02:05 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
>>> .... barring onboard data recorders that were saved by the crew during evacuation .... <<<

LOL - I am sure that was on the forefront of their minds!
Hmmm - Life-raft -- Data Recorders - Life Raft -- Data Recorders - tough choice. ;-)

Uli
'AS'

On Sunday, March 6, 2022 at 1:38:59 PM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> On 3/6/2022 10:02 AM, 2G wrote:
> > On Saturday, February 26, 2022 at 2:26:07 PM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> >> On 2/26/2022 12:56 PM, 2G wrote:
> >>> It certainly looks like new designs are using cylindrical cells. But there are a number of FES gliders out there that use prismatic, or pouch, cells. There is nothing on Schleicher's website about failure testing of their battery packs.
> >> FES powered gliders all use pouch type batteries, according the FES website. I'm not aware
> >> of any glider using prismatic cells, which are similar to pouch cells with a metal
> >> case/enclosure. Factoid: The 12v, 200AH LFP battery in my motorhome uses prismatic cells,
> >> but weight and size are not the issue for motorhomes; oddly, the same brand 12V, 100AH
> >> battery does use pouch cells :^)
> >> --
> >> Eric Greenwell - USA
> >> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> >> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
> >
> > The Felicity Ace has now sunk, taking the evidence of what started the fire with it (barring onboard data recorders that were saved by the crew during evacuation). EVs are shipped with the batteries fully charged because of their short range. Gas cars are shipped with the tanks 1/4 full, more than enough to get them to the dealer. EVs are like potential bombs awaiting a trigger. Imagine a parking lot full of EVs - one catches fire which results in a chain reaction where there entire parking lot goes up in flames from cascading battery fires. This is a time bomb waiting to happen as more EVs are put into service.
> >
> > Tom
> "Short range" seems like an inadequate reason, given that those electric vehicle had 200+
> mile ranges if fully charged, and the gas cars didn't have a 200 mile range with only a
> quarter tank.
>
> Here's another fire involving a huge number of closely parked vehicles, most of which did
> not have any range at all:
>
> https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/fraserway-rv-fire-toxic-smoke
>
> I remember Dick Johnson reportedly saying something like he did not keep his glider in the
> club hangar, because some day it was going burn down, and his glider would not be in it.
> And one day it did burn down. Does anyone remember that?
> --
> Eric Greenwell - USA
> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

That fire, where access was limited by flooding, demonstrates what EVERY large (100s of vehicles) EV fire would be like since firefighters are not equipped to fight EV fires, which can't be stopped by simply dumping a lot of water on them.

EVs ARE shipped with their batteries fully charged - limited range and limited charging stations ARE cited as the reason for this policy.

Tom

On Sunday, March 6, 2022 at 3:21:16 PM UTC-8, AS wrote:
> On Sunday, March 6, 2022 at 1:02:05 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
> >>> .... barring onboard data recorders that were saved by the crew during evacuation .... <<<
>
>
> LOL - I am sure that was on the forefront of their minds!
> Hmmm - Life-raft -- Data Recorders - Life Raft -- Data Recorders - tough choice. ;-)
>
> Uli
> 'AS'

Sailors perhaps, officers no.

Tom

On 3/8/2022 12:05 PM, 2G wrote:
> On Sunday, March 6, 2022 at 1:38:59 PM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> On 3/6/2022 10:02 AM, 2G wrote:
....
>>> Tom
>> "Short range" seems like an inadequate reason, given that those electric vehicle had 200+
>> mile ranges if fully charged, and the gas cars didn't have a 200 mile range with only a
>> quarter tank.
>>
>> Here's another fire involving a huge number of closely parked vehicles, most of which did
>> not have any range at all:
>>
>> https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/fraserway-rv-fire-toxic-smoke
>>
>> I remember Dick Johnson reportedly saying something like he did not keep his glider in the
>> club hangar, because some day it was going burn down, and his glider would not be in it.
>> And one day it did burn down. Does anyone remember that?
>> --
>> Eric Greenwell - USA
>> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
>> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
>
> That fire, where access was limited by flooding, demonstrates what EVERY large (100s of vehicles) EV fire would be like since firefighters are not equipped to fight EV fires, which can't be stopped by simply dumping a lot of water on them.
>
> EVs ARE shipped with their batteries fully charged - limited range and limited charging stations ARE cited as the reason for this policy.
>
> Tom
Cited or not, it still is puzzling the 200 miles isn't enough range to get to charging
stations. Perhaps the additional hazard of full charge vs 50% charge is insignificant,
compared to the convenience of a fully charged vehicle. But also: why do they have to
drive more than a few miles? I'd expect most would be loaded onto multiple car trailers or
put on rail cars to be be delivered to dealers across the country.

I do wonder what triggered the fire, and how it was able to spread; surely, the people
shipping the cars, the shipping company, the boat owners, the insurance company, and even
dock management at both ends of the trip had some inkling of the potential for disaster if
the ship was not compartmentalized or otherwise protected against a fire spreading, and
would provide means to suppress a fire that did start. My guess is a lot of lawyers will
busy for years on this one.

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

On Tue, 08 Mar 2022 15:29:53 -0800, Eric Greenwell wrote:

> I do wonder what triggered the fire, and how it was able to spread;
> surely, the people shipping the cars, the shipping company, the boat
> owners, the insurance company, and even dock management at both ends of
> the trip had some inkling of the potential for disaster if the ship was
> not compartmentalized or otherwise protected against a fire spreading,
> and would provide means to suppress a fire that did start. My guess is a
> lot of lawyers will busy for years on this one.
>
Fireproofing would be difficult with RoRo (Roll on Roll off) ships, both
ferries and freighters. The ones I'm familiar with (cross-channel
ferries) have one - three vehicle decks which are open end to end so you
can drive on at your departure point and straight off at the arrival
port, so you've driven straight through the boat with a stop in the
middle. Yes, they have fire extinguishers, but you do wonder how
effective those are.

The multi-deck ferries are the same except that there are hydraulic ramps
ar each end of the car decks to get vehicles on and off the top and
bottom decks: the level deck is typically reserved for large vehicles
such as tour busses and trucks.

From what I've read and seen recently, a roro car freighter is very
similar to a modern car ferry - it just has several more through decks
for vehicles and rather fewer restaurants and bars.

I can't recall fires on roro ferries, but there was one famous case of a
one that managed to leave port on a rough day without closing the bow car-
deck doors - it took on water, rolled over and sank almost immediately
after it left the port. Unsurprisingly, it turned out to be very unstable
with a few tons of water sloshing around on the car deck - and you don't
need more than a few inches of water on the deck for it the weigh several
tons.