On Tuesday, March 8, 2022 at 3:06:27 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
> On Sunday, March 6, 2022 at 3:21:16 PM UTC-8, AS wrote:
> > On Sunday, March 6, 2022 at 1:02:05 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
> > >>> .... barring onboard data recorders that were saved by the crew during evacuation .... <<<
> >
> >
> > LOL - I am sure that was on the forefront of their minds!
> > Hmmm - Life-raft -- Data Recorders - Life Raft -- Data Recorders - tough choice. ;-)
> >
> > Uli
> > 'AS'
> Sailors perhaps, officers no.
>
> Tom

.... like Captain Francesco Schettino? ;-)

Uli
'AS'

On Tuesday, March 8, 2022 at 3:29:58 PM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> On 3/8/2022 12:05 PM, 2G wrote:
> > On Sunday, March 6, 2022 at 1:38:59 PM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> >> On 3/6/2022 10:02 AM, 2G wrote:
> ...
> >>> Tom
> >> "Short range" seems like an inadequate reason, given that those electric vehicle had 200+
> >> mile ranges if fully charged, and the gas cars didn't have a 200 mile range with only a
> >> quarter tank.
> >>
> >> Here's another fire involving a huge number of closely parked vehicles, most of which did
> >> not have any range at all:
> >>
> >> https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/fraserway-rv-fire-toxic-smoke
> >>
> >> I remember Dick Johnson reportedly saying something like he did not keep his glider in the
> >> club hangar, because some day it was going burn down, and his glider would not be in it.
> >> And one day it did burn down. Does anyone remember that?
> >> --
> >> Eric Greenwell - USA
> >> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> >> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
> >
> > That fire, where access was limited by flooding, demonstrates what EVERY large (100s of vehicles) EV fire would be like since firefighters are not equipped to fight EV fires, which can't be stopped by simply dumping a lot of water on them.
> >
> > EVs ARE shipped with their batteries fully charged - limited range and limited charging stations ARE cited as the reason for this policy.
> >
> > Tom
> Cited or not, it still is puzzling the 200 miles isn't enough range to get to charging
> stations. Perhaps the additional hazard of full charge vs 50% charge is insignificant,
> compared to the convenience of a fully charged vehicle. But also: why do they have to
> drive more than a few miles? I'd expect most would be loaded onto multiple car trailers or
> put on rail cars to be be delivered to dealers across the country.
>
> I do wonder what triggered the fire, and how it was able to spread; surely, the people
> shipping the cars, the shipping company, the boat owners, the insurance company, and even
> dock management at both ends of the trip had some inkling of the potential for disaster if
> the ship was not compartmentalized or otherwise protected against a fire spreading, and
> would provide means to suppress a fire that did start. My guess is a lot of lawyers will
> busy for years on this one.
> --
> Eric Greenwell - USA
> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

The mileage must include driving from the last charging station to the ship, then around the port, finally to its destination. The first and last parts combined may well be over 200 miles. In any event, that is the policy.

Tom

On Tuesday, March 8, 2022 at 4:16:56 PM UTC-8, AS wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 8, 2022 at 3:06:27 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
> > On Sunday, March 6, 2022 at 3:21:16 PM UTC-8, AS wrote:
> > > On Sunday, March 6, 2022 at 1:02:05 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
> > > >>> .... barring onboard data recorders that were saved by the crew during evacuation .... <<<
> > >
> > >
> > > LOL - I am sure that was on the forefront of their minds!
> > > Hmmm - Life-raft -- Data Recorders - Life Raft -- Data Recorders - tough choice. ;-)
> > >
> > > Uli
> > > 'AS'
> > Sailors perhaps, officers no.
> >
> > Tom
> ... like Captain Francesco Schettino? ;-)
>
> Uli
> 'AS'

You wish...

On 3/8/2022 7:12 PM, 2G wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 8, 2022 at 3:29:58 PM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> On 3/8/2022 12:05 PM, 2G wrote:
>>> On Sunday, March 6, 2022 at 1:38:59 PM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>>>> On 3/6/2022 10:02 AM, 2G wrote:
>> ...
>>>>> Tom
>>>> "Short range" seems like an inadequate reason, given that those electric vehicle had 200+
>>>> mile ranges if fully charged, and the gas cars didn't have a 200 mile range with only a
>>>> quarter tank.
>>>>
>>>> Here's another fire involving a huge number of closely parked vehicles, most of which did
>>>> not have any range at all:
>>>>
>>>> https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/fraserway-rv-fire-toxic-smoke
>>>>
>...
>>>
>>> That fire, where access was limited by flooding, demonstrates what EVERY large (100s of vehicles) EV fire would be like since firefighters are not equipped to fight EV fires, which can't be stopped by simply dumping a lot of water on them.
>>>
>>> EVs ARE shipped with their batteries fully charged - limited range and limited charging stations ARE cited as the reason for this policy.
>>>
>>> Tom
>> Cited or not, it still is puzzling the 200 miles isn't enough range to get to charging
>> stations. Perhaps the additional hazard of full charge vs 50% charge is insignificant,
>> compared to the convenience of a fully charged vehicle. But also: why do they have to
>> drive more than a few miles? I'd expect most would be loaded onto multiple car trailers or
>> put on rail cars to be be delivered to dealers across the country.
>>
>> I do wonder what triggered the fire, and how it was able to spread; surely, the people
>> shipping the cars, the shipping company, the boat owners, the insurance company, and even
>> dock management at both ends of the trip had some inkling of the potential for disaster if
>> the ship was not compartmentalized or otherwise protected against a fire spreading, and
>> would provide means to suppress a fire that did start. My guess is a lot of lawyers will
>> busy for years on this one.
>> --
>> Eric Greenwell - USA
>> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
>> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
>
> The mileage must include driving from the last charging station to the ship, then around the port, finally to its destination. The first and last parts combined may well be over 200 miles. In any event, that is the policy.
>
> Tom
So, definitely not charged to 100% when they get on the boat. But now I'm wondering: were
these new or used cars? If new, why are they driven to the dock from the factory, instead
of being trailered there?

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

On Tuesday, March 8, 2022 at 8:16:42 PM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> On 3/8/2022 7:12 PM, 2G wrote:
> > On Tuesday, March 8, 2022 at 3:29:58 PM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> >> On 3/8/2022 12:05 PM, 2G wrote:
> >>> On Sunday, March 6, 2022 at 1:38:59 PM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> >>>> On 3/6/2022 10:02 AM, 2G wrote:
> >> ...
> >>>>> Tom
> >>>> "Short range" seems like an inadequate reason, given that those electric vehicle had 200+
> >>>> mile ranges if fully charged, and the gas cars didn't have a 200 mile range with only a
> >>>> quarter tank.
> >>>>
> >>>> Here's another fire involving a huge number of closely parked vehicles, most of which did
> >>>> not have any range at all:
> >>>>
> >>>> https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/fraserway-rv-fire-toxic-smoke
> >>>>
> >...
> >>>
> >>> That fire, where access was limited by flooding, demonstrates what EVERY large (100s of vehicles) EV fire would be like since firefighters are not equipped to fight EV fires, which can't be stopped by simply dumping a lot of water on them.
> >>>
> >>> EVs ARE shipped with their batteries fully charged - limited range and limited charging stations ARE cited as the reason for this policy.
> >>>
> >>> Tom
> >> Cited or not, it still is puzzling the 200 miles isn't enough range to get to charging
> >> stations. Perhaps the additional hazard of full charge vs 50% charge is insignificant,
> >> compared to the convenience of a fully charged vehicle. But also: why do they have to
> >> drive more than a few miles? I'd expect most would be loaded onto multiple car trailers or
> >> put on rail cars to be be delivered to dealers across the country.
> >>
> >> I do wonder what triggered the fire, and how it was able to spread; surely, the people
> >> shipping the cars, the shipping company, the boat owners, the insurance company, and even
> >> dock management at both ends of the trip had some inkling of the potential for disaster if
> >> the ship was not compartmentalized or otherwise protected against a fire spreading, and
> >> would provide means to suppress a fire that did start. My guess is a lot of lawyers will
> >> busy for years on this one.
> >> --
> >> Eric Greenwell - USA
> >> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> >> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
> >
> > The mileage must include driving from the last charging station to the ship, then around the port, finally to its destination. The first and last parts combined may well be over 200 miles. In any event, that is the policy..
> >
> > Tom
> So, definitely not charged to 100% when they get on the boat. But now I'm wondering: were
> these new or used cars? If new, why are they driven to the dock from the factory, instead
> of being trailered there?
> --
> Eric Greenwell - USA
> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Here is a non-government database of Tesla deaths:
https://www.tesladeaths.com/
A subset of this database are Tesla fires:
https://www.tesla-fire.com/
There are fires that have resulted from a minor incident:
https://www.fox10phoenix.com/news/woman-dead-following-crash-in-paradise-valley-authorities-say
or no incident at all:
https://www.countynews.tv/santa-ana-garage-fire-chars-vehicles-damages-home/
Yet, despite all of these fires, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) REFUSES to investigate:
https://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/autos/2021/10/04/nhtsa-declines-open-probe-into-tesla-battery-fires/5988305001/
Now, Tesla uses the small cells (18650) that Eric and others declare to be safe. WHY hasn't NHTSA developed their own database on EV fires and WHY aren't they investigating these fires? Has this anything to do with the progressive's agenda to force us into EVs???

Tom

On 4/2/2022 10:37 AM, 2G wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 8, 2022 at 8:16:42 PM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> On 3/8/2022 7:12 PM, 2G wrote:
....
>
> Here is a non-government database of Tesla deaths:
> https://www.tesladeaths.com/
> A subset of this database are Tesla fires:
> https://www.tesla-fire.com/
> There are fires that have resulted from a minor incident:
> https://www.fox10phoenix.com/news/woman-dead-following-crash-in-paradise-valley-authorities-say
> or no incident at all:
> https://www.countynews.tv/santa-ana-garage-fire-chars-vehicles-damages-home/
> Yet, despite all of these fires, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) REFUSES to investigate:
> https://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/autos/2021/10/04/nhtsa-declines-open-probe-into-tesla-battery-fires/5988305001/
> Now, Tesla uses the small cells (18650) that Eric and others declare to be safe. WHY hasn't NHTSA developed their own database on EV fires and WHY aren't they investigating these fires? Has this anything to do with the progressive's agenda to force us into EVs???
>
> Tom

Too many people here have their heads in the clouds to pay any attention to your
questions, even if they are very good ones. You should be asking a group that exists for
Tesla owners, and ask them about fires. These folks literally have real skin in the game,
as they've experienced the fires you ask about, and they can bring you up speed in a hurry.

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

On Saturday, April 2, 2022 at 6:08:30 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> On 4/2/2022 10:37 AM, 2G wrote:
> > On Tuesday, March 8, 2022 at 8:16:42 PM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> >> On 3/8/2022 7:12 PM, 2G wrote:
> ...
> >
> > Here is a non-government database of Tesla deaths:
> > https://www.tesladeaths.com/
> > A subset of this database are Tesla fires:
> > https://www.tesla-fire.com/
> > There are fires that have resulted from a minor incident:
> > https://www.fox10phoenix.com/news/woman-dead-following-crash-in-paradise-valley-authorities-say
> > or no incident at all:
> > https://www.countynews.tv/santa-ana-garage-fire-chars-vehicles-damages-home/
> > Yet, despite all of these fires, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) REFUSES to investigate:
> > https://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/autos/2021/10/04/nhtsa-declines-open-probe-into-tesla-battery-fires/5988305001/
> > Now, Tesla uses the small cells (18650) that Eric and others declare to be safe. WHY hasn't NHTSA developed their own database on EV fires and WHY aren't they investigating these fires? Has this anything to do with the progressive's agenda to force us into EVs???
> >
> > Tom
> Too many people here have their heads in the clouds to pay any attention to your
> questions, even if they are very good ones. You should be asking a group that exists for
> Tesla owners, and ask them about fires. These folks literally have real skin in the game,
> as they've experienced the fires you ask about, and they can bring you up speed in a hurry.
>
> https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/
> --
> Eric Greenwell - USA
> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
Eric, I have not seen too many Tesla's towing gliders, more Pawnee's are towing gliders than Tesla's! I was motivated to put some April Fools Day joke about motorgliders catching on fire, but I had to restrain from hurting peoples feelings, Didn't want the Bum to get overly excited and have a mental breakdown. Old Bob, The Purist

On Saturday, April 2, 2022 at 3:08:30 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> On 4/2/2022 10:37 AM, 2G wrote:
> > On Tuesday, March 8, 2022 at 8:16:42 PM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> >> On 3/8/2022 7:12 PM, 2G wrote:
> ...
> >
> > Here is a non-government database of Tesla deaths:
> > https://www.tesladeaths.com/
> > A subset of this database are Tesla fires:
> > https://www.tesla-fire.com/
> > There are fires that have resulted from a minor incident:
> > https://www.fox10phoenix.com/news/woman-dead-following-crash-in-paradise-valley-authorities-say
> > or no incident at all:
> > https://www.countynews.tv/santa-ana-garage-fire-chars-vehicles-damages-home/
> > Yet, despite all of these fires, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) REFUSES to investigate:
> > https://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/autos/2021/10/04/nhtsa-declines-open-probe-into-tesla-battery-fires/5988305001/
> > Now, Tesla uses the small cells (18650) that Eric and others declare to be safe. WHY hasn't NHTSA developed their own database on EV fires and WHY aren't they investigating these fires? Has this anything to do with the progressive's agenda to force us into EVs???
> >
> > Tom
> Too many people here have their heads in the clouds to pay any attention to your
> questions, even if they are very good ones. You should be asking a group that exists for
> Tesla owners, and ask them about fires. These folks literally have real skin in the game,
> as they've experienced the fires you ask about, and they can bring you up speed in a hurry.
>
> https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/
> --
> Eric Greenwell - USA
> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

The reason I posted it here is that battery safety is a hot topic for those pilots considering buying an electric self-launcher. There are obviously far more EVs out there than electric gliders, and you have discounted most past fires because they use pouch cells instead of cylindrical. Consequently, Tesla fires are of great interest because they use cylindrical cells and are considered to be the gold standard of EV safety.

Some of the information that I posted did come from another news group. Here is some information that NHSTA is providing to emergency responders to EV fires:
https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.gov/files/interimguide_electrichybridvehicles_012012_v3.pdf
"Exiting the vehicle immediately" means jumping and not depending upon a ballistic chute.
And here are global regulations for EV safety:
https://unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/main/wp29/wp29wgs/wp29gen/wp29registry/ECE-TRANS-180a20e.pdf

This is an FYI situation - pilots can choose to either educate themselves on battery safety or roll the dice and ignore it. I have no dog in the fight because I don't own an electric-powered glider and am not in the market for one.

Tom

On Saturday, April 2, 2022 at 6:54:11 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
> On Saturday, April 2, 2022 at 3:08:30 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > On 4/2/2022 10:37 AM, 2G wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, March 8, 2022 at 8:16:42 PM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > >> On 3/8/2022 7:12 PM, 2G wrote:
> > ...
> > >
> > > Here is a non-government database of Tesla deaths:
> > > https://www.tesladeaths.com/
> > > A subset of this database are Tesla fires:
> > > https://www.tesla-fire.com/
> > > There are fires that have resulted from a minor incident:
> > > https://www.fox10phoenix.com/news/woman-dead-following-crash-in-paradise-valley-authorities-say
> > > or no incident at all:
> > > https://www.countynews.tv/santa-ana-garage-fire-chars-vehicles-damages-home/
> > > Yet, despite all of these fires, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) REFUSES to investigate:
> > > https://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/autos/2021/10/04/nhtsa-declines-open-probe-into-tesla-battery-fires/5988305001/
> > > Now, Tesla uses the small cells (18650) that Eric and others declare to be safe. WHY hasn't NHTSA developed their own database on EV fires and WHY aren't they investigating these fires? Has this anything to do with the progressive's agenda to force us into EVs???
> > >
> > > Tom
> > Too many people here have their heads in the clouds to pay any attention to your
> > questions, even if they are very good ones. You should be asking a group that exists for
> > Tesla owners, and ask them about fires. These folks literally have real skin in the game,
> > as they've experienced the fires you ask about, and they can bring you up speed in a hurry.
> >
> > https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/
> > --
> > Eric Greenwell - USA
> > - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> > https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
> The reason I posted it here is that battery safety is a hot topic for those pilots considering buying an electric self-launcher. There are obviously far more EVs out there than electric gliders, and you have discounted most past fires because they use pouch cells instead of cylindrical. Consequently, Tesla fires are of great interest because they use cylindrical cells and are considered to be the gold standard of EV safety.
>
> Some of the information that I posted did come from another news group. Here is some information that NHSTA is providing to emergency responders to EV fires:
> https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.gov/files/interimguide_electrichybridvehicles_012012_v3.pdf
> "Exiting the vehicle immediately" means jumping and not depending upon a ballistic chute.
> And here are global regulations for EV safety:
> https://unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/main/wp29/wp29wgs/wp29gen/wp29registry/ECE-TRANS-180a20e.pdf
>
> This is an FYI situation - pilots can choose to either educate themselves on battery safety or roll the dice and ignore it. I have no dog in the fight because I don't own an electric-powered glider and am not in the market for one.
>
> Tom
If you have no dog in the fight then why do you choose to opine. OBTP

On 4/2/2022 3:54 PM, 2G wrote:
> On Saturday, April 2, 2022 at 3:08:30 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> On 4/2/2022 10:37 AM, 2G wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, March 8, 2022 at 8:16:42 PM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>>>> On 3/8/2022 7:12 PM, 2G wrote:
>> ...
>>>
>>> Here is a non-government database of Tesla deaths:
>>> https://www.tesladeaths.com/
>>> A subset of this database are Tesla fires:
>>> https://www.tesla-fire.com/
>>> There are fires that have resulted from a minor incident:
>>> https://www.fox10phoenix.com/news/woman-dead-following-crash-in-paradise-valley-authorities-say
>>> or no incident at all:
>>> https://www.countynews.tv/santa-ana-garage-fire-chars-vehicles-damages-home/
>>> Yet, despite all of these fires, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) REFUSES to investigate:
>>> https://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/autos/2021/10/04/nhtsa-declines-open-probe-into-tesla-battery-fires/5988305001/
>>> Now, Tesla uses the small cells (18650) that Eric and others declare to be safe. WHY hasn't NHTSA developed their own database on EV fires and WHY aren't they investigating these fires? Has this anything to do with the progressive's agenda to force us into EVs???
>>>
>>> Tom
>> Too many people here have their heads in the clouds to pay any attention to your
>> questions, even if they are very good ones. You should be asking a group that exists for
>> Tesla owners, and ask them about fires. These folks literally have real skin in the game,
>> as they've experienced the fires you ask about, and they can bring you up speed in a hurry.
>>
>> https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/
>> --
>> Eric Greenwell - USA
>> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
>> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
>
> The reason I posted it here is that battery safety is a hot topic for those pilots considering buying an electric self-launcher. There are obviously far more EVs out there than electric gliders, and you have discounted most past fires because they use pouch cells instead of cylindrical. Consequently, Tesla fires are of great interest because they use cylindrical cells and are considered to be the gold standard of EV safety.
>
> Some of the information that I posted did come from another news group. Here is some information that NHSTA is providing to emergency responders to EV fires:
> https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.gov/files/interimguide_electrichybridvehicles_012012_v3.pdf
> "Exiting the vehicle immediately" means jumping and not depending upon a ballistic chute.
> And here are global regulations for EV safety:
> https://unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/main/wp29/wp29wgs/wp29gen/wp29registry/ECE-TRANS-180a20e.pdf
>
> This is an FYI situation - pilots can choose to either educate themselves on battery safety or roll the dice and ignore it. I have no dog in the fight because I don't own an electric-powered glider and am not in the market for one.
>
> Tom

I, and most other pilots that are interested in electric gliders, think letting
Schleicher, Jonkers, Solo, and other manufacturers educate themselves is going to be a lot
more productive than attempting it ourselves. By offering electric gliders, they are
making a big commitment to the technology that will affect their company for years to
come, and they have a huge incentive to get it right. Someone without a dog in the fight,
without any experience in designing or manufacturing electric glider propulsion
systems...not so much. You trust Schleicher to build a safe, high performance glider,
since you owned an ASH26E and now you fly an ASH31Mi. Why don't trust them to do the same
with the ASG32EL, AS33Me, and AS34Me?

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

On Saturday, April 2, 2022 at 4:20:26 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, April 2, 2022 at 6:54:11 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
> > On Saturday, April 2, 2022 at 3:08:30 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > > On 4/2/2022 10:37 AM, 2G wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, March 8, 2022 at 8:16:42 PM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > > >> On 3/8/2022 7:12 PM, 2G wrote:
> > > ...
> > > >
> > > > Here is a non-government database of Tesla deaths:
> > > > https://www.tesladeaths.com/
> > > > A subset of this database are Tesla fires:
> > > > https://www.tesla-fire.com/
> > > > There are fires that have resulted from a minor incident:
> > > > https://www.fox10phoenix.com/news/woman-dead-following-crash-in-paradise-valley-authorities-say
> > > > or no incident at all:
> > > > https://www.countynews.tv/santa-ana-garage-fire-chars-vehicles-damages-home/
> > > > Yet, despite all of these fires, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) REFUSES to investigate:
> > > > https://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/autos/2021/10/04/nhtsa-declines-open-probe-into-tesla-battery-fires/5988305001/
> > > > Now, Tesla uses the small cells (18650) that Eric and others declare to be safe. WHY hasn't NHTSA developed their own database on EV fires and WHY aren't they investigating these fires? Has this anything to do with the progressive's agenda to force us into EVs???
> > > >
> > > > Tom
> > > Too many people here have their heads in the clouds to pay any attention to your
> > > questions, even if they are very good ones. You should be asking a group that exists for
> > > Tesla owners, and ask them about fires. These folks literally have real skin in the game,
> > > as they've experienced the fires you ask about, and they can bring you up speed in a hurry.
> > >
> > > https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/
> > > --
> > > Eric Greenwell - USA
> > > - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> > > https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
> > The reason I posted it here is that battery safety is a hot topic for those pilots considering buying an electric self-launcher. There are obviously far more EVs out there than electric gliders, and you have discounted most past fires because they use pouch cells instead of cylindrical. Consequently, Tesla fires are of great interest because they use cylindrical cells and are considered to be the gold standard of EV safety.
> >
> > Some of the information that I posted did come from another news group. Here is some information that NHSTA is providing to emergency responders to EV fires:
> > https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.gov/files/interimguide_electrichybridvehicles_012012_v3.pdf
> > "Exiting the vehicle immediately" means jumping and not depending upon a ballistic chute.
> > And here are global regulations for EV safety:
> > https://unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/main/wp29/wp29wgs/wp29gen/wp29registry/ECE-TRANS-180a20e.pdf
> >
> > This is an FYI situation - pilots can choose to either educate themselves on battery safety or roll the dice and ignore it. I have no dog in the fight because I don't own an electric-powered glider and am not in the market for one.
> >
> > Tom
> If you have no dog in the fight then why do you choose to opine. OBTP

Why do you?????

On Saturday, April 2, 2022 at 5:07:04 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> On 4/2/2022 3:54 PM, 2G wrote:
> > On Saturday, April 2, 2022 at 3:08:30 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> >> On 4/2/2022 10:37 AM, 2G wrote:
> >>> On Tuesday, March 8, 2022 at 8:16:42 PM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> >>>> On 3/8/2022 7:12 PM, 2G wrote:
> >> ...
> >>>
> >>> Here is a non-government database of Tesla deaths:
> >>> https://www.tesladeaths.com/
> >>> A subset of this database are Tesla fires:
> >>> https://www.tesla-fire.com/
> >>> There are fires that have resulted from a minor incident:
> >>> https://www.fox10phoenix.com/news/woman-dead-following-crash-in-paradise-valley-authorities-say
> >>> or no incident at all:
> >>> https://www.countynews.tv/santa-ana-garage-fire-chars-vehicles-damages-home/
> >>> Yet, despite all of these fires, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) REFUSES to investigate:
> >>> https://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/autos/2021/10/04/nhtsa-declines-open-probe-into-tesla-battery-fires/5988305001/
> >>> Now, Tesla uses the small cells (18650) that Eric and others declare to be safe. WHY hasn't NHTSA developed their own database on EV fires and WHY aren't they investigating these fires? Has this anything to do with the progressive's agenda to force us into EVs???
> >>>
> >>> Tom
> >> Too many people here have their heads in the clouds to pay any attention to your
> >> questions, even if they are very good ones. You should be asking a group that exists for
> >> Tesla owners, and ask them about fires. These folks literally have real skin in the game,
> >> as they've experienced the fires you ask about, and they can bring you up speed in a hurry.
> >>
> >> https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/
> >> --
> >> Eric Greenwell - USA
> >> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> >> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
> >
> > The reason I posted it here is that battery safety is a hot topic for those pilots considering buying an electric self-launcher. There are obviously far more EVs out there than electric gliders, and you have discounted most past fires because they use pouch cells instead of cylindrical. Consequently, Tesla fires are of great interest because they use cylindrical cells and are considered to be the gold standard of EV safety.
> >
> > Some of the information that I posted did come from another news group. Here is some information that NHSTA is providing to emergency responders to EV fires:
> > https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.gov/files/interimguide_electrichybridvehicles_012012_v3.pdf
> > "Exiting the vehicle immediately" means jumping and not depending upon a ballistic chute.
> > And here are global regulations for EV safety:
> > https://unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/main/wp29/wp29wgs/wp29gen/wp29registry/ECE-TRANS-180a20e.pdf
> >
> > This is an FYI situation - pilots can choose to either educate themselves on battery safety or roll the dice and ignore it. I have no dog in the fight because I don't own an electric-powered glider and am not in the market for one.
> >
> > Tom
> I, and most other pilots that are interested in electric gliders, think letting
> Schleicher, Jonkers, Solo, and other manufacturers educate themselves is going to be a lot
> more productive than attempting it ourselves. By offering electric gliders, they are
> making a big commitment to the technology that will affect their company for years to
> come, and they have a huge incentive to get it right. Someone without a dog in the fight,
> without any experience in designing or manufacturing electric glider propulsion
> systems...not so much. You trust Schleicher to build a safe, high performance glider,
> since you owned an ASH26E and now you fly an ASH31Mi. Why don't trust them to do the same
> with the ASG32EL, AS33Me, and AS34Me?
> --
> Eric Greenwell - USA
> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Got it - you're in the "roll the dice" camp.

Tom

On 4/2/2022 9:41 PM, 2G wrote:
> On Saturday, April 2, 2022 at 5:07:04 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> On 4/2/2022 3:54 PM, 2G wrote:
>>> On Saturday, April 2, 2022 at 3:08:30 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>>>> On 4/2/2022 10:37 AM, 2G wrote:
>>>>> On Tuesday, March 8, 2022 at 8:16:42 PM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 7:12 PM, 2G wrote:
>>>> ...
>>>>>
>>>>> Here is a non-government database of Tesla deaths:
>>>>> https://www.tesladeaths.com/
>>>>> A subset of this database are Tesla fires:
>>>>> https://www.tesla-fire.com/
>>>>> There are fires that have resulted from a minor incident:
>>>>> https://www.fox10phoenix.com/news/woman-dead-following-crash-in-paradise-valley-authorities-say
>>>>> or no incident at all:
>>>>> https://www.countynews.tv/santa-ana-garage-fire-chars-vehicles-damages-home/
>>>>> Yet, despite all of these fires, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) REFUSES to investigate:
>>>>> https://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/autos/2021/10/04/nhtsa-declines-open-probe-into-tesla-battery-fires/5988305001/
>>>>> Now, Tesla uses the small cells (18650) that Eric and others declare to be safe. WHY hasn't NHTSA developed their own database on EV fires and WHY aren't they investigating these fires? Has this anything to do with the progressive's agenda to force us into EVs???
>>>>>
>>>>> Tom
>>>> Too many people here have their heads in the clouds to pay any attention to your
>>>> questions, even if they are very good ones. You should be asking a group that exists for
>>>> Tesla owners, and ask them about fires. These folks literally have real skin in the game,
>>>> as they've experienced the fires you ask about, and they can bring you up speed in a hurry.
>>>>
>>>> https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/
>>>> --
>>>> Eric Greenwell - USA
>>>> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
>>>> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
>>>
>>> The reason I posted it here is that battery safety is a hot topic for those pilots considering buying an electric self-launcher. There are obviously far more EVs out there than electric gliders, and you have discounted most past fires because they use pouch cells instead of cylindrical. Consequently, Tesla fires are of great interest because they use cylindrical cells and are considered to be the gold standard of EV safety.
>>>
>>> Some of the information that I posted did come from another news group. Here is some information that NHSTA is providing to emergency responders to EV fires:
>>> https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.gov/files/interimguide_electrichybridvehicles_012012_v3.pdf
>>> "Exiting the vehicle immediately" means jumping and not depending upon a ballistic chute.
>>> And here are global regulations for EV safety:
>>> https://unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/main/wp29/wp29wgs/wp29gen/wp29registry/ECE-TRANS-180a20e.pdf
>>>
>>> This is an FYI situation - pilots can choose to either educate themselves on battery safety or roll the dice and ignore it. I have no dog in the fight because I don't own an electric-powered glider and am not in the market for one.
>>>
>>> Tom
>> I, and most other pilots that are interested in electric gliders, think letting
>> Schleicher, Jonkers, Solo, and other manufacturers educate themselves is going to be a lot
>> more productive than attempting it ourselves. By offering electric gliders, they are
>> making a big commitment to the technology that will affect their company for years to
>> come, and they have a huge incentive to get it right. Someone without a dog in the fight,
>> without any experience in designing or manufacturing electric glider propulsion
>> systems...not so much. You trust Schleicher to build a safe, high performance glider,
>> since you owned an ASH26E and now you fly an ASH31Mi. Why don't trust them to do the same
>> with the ASG32EL, AS33Me, and AS34Me?
>> --
>> Eric Greenwell - USA
>> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
>> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
>
> Got it - you're in the "roll the dice" camp.
>
> Tom
And are you "rolling the dice" with us by flying a Schleicher glider? A lot of what we do
is based on trust, because we can't completely inspect a finished glider, we aren't there
when they discuss the design and do their calculations, or sit in the cockpit while the
test pilot does Vne tests. We trust them because they've earned the trust over decades of
design and manufacturing of gliders. Going with your opinion, or mine, would be "rolling
the dice", as neither of us has the experience and skills that the glider manufacturers
have, both in-house and in their extensive contacts in industry and academia.

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

I think Tom makes some good points here and not talking about it on RAS
seems to me to be deflection since some, if not all electric motor
gliders are now using the same sort of cells.

Bailing out immediately in the event of a fire seems to me to be a
really good plan recalling that Cirrus descending gently under its BRS
parachute as the fire grew and burned alive the occupants. And that was
a gas and oil fire; a lithium fire would have been much more spectacular...

It is my firm plan to jump if I have sufficient altitude in my Stemme
and it catches fire. Otherwise, I'll get it on the ground quicker than
anyone can say, "Whuuut?"

Dan
5J

On 4/2/22 16:54, 2G wrote:
> "Exiting the vehicle immediately" means jumping and not depending upon a ballistic chute.
>

On 4/2/22 18:06, Eric Greenwell wrote:

"You trust Schleicher
> to build a safe, high performance glider, since you owned an ASH26E and
> now you fly an ASH31Mi. Why don't trust them to do the same with the
> ASG32EL, AS33Me, and AS34Me?"

Just what I was thinking about my 1988 Ford F-150 truck when Ford sent
me a recall notice which said, in part, "Don't park your truck in the
garage until this recall has been accomplished." That was for a faulty
ignition switch which seemed to have an alarm clock built in and would
ignite the truck at 2:00 AM.

Just because Schleicher's livelihood depends upon providing good, safe
products does not mean that their products will not do something unexpected.

Eric, your arguments hold more hope than water.

Dan
5J

On Sunday, April 3, 2022 at 6:17:06 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> On 4/2/2022 9:41 PM, 2G wrote:
> > On Saturday, April 2, 2022 at 5:07:04 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> >> On 4/2/2022 3:54 PM, 2G wrote:
> >>> On Saturday, April 2, 2022 at 3:08:30 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> >>>> On 4/2/2022 10:37 AM, 2G wrote:
> >>>>> On Tuesday, March 8, 2022 at 8:16:42 PM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> >>>>>> On 3/8/2022 7:12 PM, 2G wrote:
> >>>> ...
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Here is a non-government database of Tesla deaths:
> >>>>> https://www.tesladeaths.com/
> >>>>> A subset of this database are Tesla fires:
> >>>>> https://www.tesla-fire.com/
> >>>>> There are fires that have resulted from a minor incident:
> >>>>> https://www.fox10phoenix.com/news/woman-dead-following-crash-in-paradise-valley-authorities-say
> >>>>> or no incident at all:
> >>>>> https://www.countynews.tv/santa-ana-garage-fire-chars-vehicles-damages-home/
> >>>>> Yet, despite all of these fires, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) REFUSES to investigate:
> >>>>> https://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/autos/2021/10/04/nhtsa-declines-open-probe-into-tesla-battery-fires/5988305001/
> >>>>> Now, Tesla uses the small cells (18650) that Eric and others declare to be safe. WHY hasn't NHTSA developed their own database on EV fires and WHY aren't they investigating these fires? Has this anything to do with the progressive's agenda to force us into EVs???
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Tom
> >>>> Too many people here have their heads in the clouds to pay any attention to your
> >>>> questions, even if they are very good ones. You should be asking a group that exists for
> >>>> Tesla owners, and ask them about fires. These folks literally have real skin in the game,
> >>>> as they've experienced the fires you ask about, and they can bring you up speed in a hurry.
> >>>>
> >>>> https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/
> >>>> --
> >>>> Eric Greenwell - USA
> >>>> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> >>>> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
> >>>
> >>> The reason I posted it here is that battery safety is a hot topic for those pilots considering buying an electric self-launcher. There are obviously far more EVs out there than electric gliders, and you have discounted most past fires because they use pouch cells instead of cylindrical. Consequently, Tesla fires are of great interest because they use cylindrical cells and are considered to be the gold standard of EV safety.
> >>>
> >>> Some of the information that I posted did come from another news group. Here is some information that NHSTA is providing to emergency responders to EV fires:
> >>> https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.gov/files/interimguide_electrichybridvehicles_012012_v3.pdf
> >>> "Exiting the vehicle immediately" means jumping and not depending upon a ballistic chute.
> >>> And here are global regulations for EV safety:
> >>> https://unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/main/wp29/wp29wgs/wp29gen/wp29registry/ECE-TRANS-180a20e.pdf
> >>>
> >>> This is an FYI situation - pilots can choose to either educate themselves on battery safety or roll the dice and ignore it. I have no dog in the fight because I don't own an electric-powered glider and am not in the market for one.
> >>>
> >>> Tom
> >> I, and most other pilots that are interested in electric gliders, think letting
> >> Schleicher, Jonkers, Solo, and other manufacturers educate themselves is going to be a lot
> >> more productive than attempting it ourselves. By offering electric gliders, they are
> >> making a big commitment to the technology that will affect their company for years to
> >> come, and they have a huge incentive to get it right. Someone without a dog in the fight,
> >> without any experience in designing or manufacturing electric glider propulsion
> >> systems...not so much. You trust Schleicher to build a safe, high performance glider,
> >> since you owned an ASH26E and now you fly an ASH31Mi. Why don't trust them to do the same
> >> with the ASG32EL, AS33Me, and AS34Me?
> >> --
> >> Eric Greenwell - USA
> >> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> >> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
> >
> > Got it - you're in the "roll the dice" camp.
> >
> > Tom
> And are you "rolling the dice" with us by flying a Schleicher glider? A lot of what we do
> is based on trust, because we can't completely inspect a finished glider, we aren't there
> when they discuss the design and do their calculations, or sit in the cockpit while the
> test pilot does Vne tests. We trust them because they've earned the trust over decades of
> design and manufacturing of gliders. Going with your opinion, or mine, would be "rolling
> the dice", as neither of us has the experience and skills that the glider manufacturers
> have, both in-house and in their extensive contacts in industry and academia.
> --
> Eric Greenwell - USA
> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

I will repeat, I don't own an electric glider, I don't have one on order and I don't plan on ordering one - ever.

Tom

Every company building complex vehicles will have problems resulting ADs or recalls. The
ones you trust will respond immediately to flaws, notifying you, and fixing it. That's
your Ford situation, and also the initial FES battery situation.

Tom is not talking about that kind of situation (a design or manufacturing flaw that can
be fixed), he's arguing the batteries used in gliders are inherently unsafe, that no
amount of design can overcome that, and that the glider manufacturers don't understand
that obvious fact, or are willing to risk their customer's safety and their business
success on gliders that don't even have enough performance to be useful.

Schleicher, Schmepp-Hirth, DG, Jonkers - they are all building electric powered gliders.
Who are you going to trust: the glider manufacturers, or Tom? In some sense, you've
answered that question already, since you continue to drive vehicles with ignition
switches, and fly a model of glider that has caught fire in flight.

On 4/3/2022 8:26 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
>
> On 4/2/22 18:06, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>
> "You trust Schleicher
> > to build a safe, high performance glider, since you owned an ASH26E and
> > now you fly an ASH31Mi. Why don't trust them to do the same with the
> > ASG32EL, AS33Me, and AS34Me?"
>
> Just what I was thinking about my 1988 Ford F-150 truck when Ford sent me a recall notice
> which said, in part, "Don't park your truck in the garage until this recall has been
> accomplished."  That was for a faulty ignition switch which seemed to have an alarm clock
> built in and would ignite the truck at 2:00 AM.
>
> Just because Schleicher's livelihood depends upon providing good, safe products does not
> mean that their products will not do something unexpected.
>
> Eric, your arguments hold more hope than water.
>
> Dan
> 5J

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

....And I have plans in place for the unfortunate eventually.

But just because your Jeta comes equipped with a BRS parachute, I
wouldn't skip the personal one. Here's a link. I'm sure there are
more. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BH3XTseNpw0

Dan
5J

On 4/4/22 07:28, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> Every company building complex vehicles will have problems resulting ADs
> or recalls. The ones you trust will respond immediately to flaws,
> notifying you, and fixing it. That's your Ford situation, and also the
> initial FES battery situation.
>
> Tom is not talking about that kind of situation (a design or
> manufacturing flaw that can be fixed), he's arguing the batteries used
> in gliders are inherently unsafe, that no amount of design can overcome
> that, and that the glider manufacturers don't understand that obvious
> fact, or are willing to risk their customer's safety and their business
> success on gliders that don't even have enough performance to be useful.
>
> Schleicher, Schmepp-Hirth, DG, Jonkers - they are all building electric
> powered gliders. Who are you going to trust: the glider manufacturers,
> or Tom? In some sense, you've answered that question already, since you
> continue to drive vehicles with ignition switches, and fly a model of
> glider that has caught fire in flight.
>
> On 4/3/2022 8:26 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
>>
>> On 4/2/22 18:06, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>>
>> "You trust Schleicher
>>  > to build a safe, high performance glider, since you owned an ASH26E
>> and
>>  > now you fly an ASH31Mi. Why don't trust them to do the same with the
>>  > ASG32EL, AS33Me, and AS34Me?"
>>
>> Just what I was thinking about my 1988 Ford F-150 truck when Ford sent
>> me a recall notice which said, in part, "Don't park your truck in the
>> garage until this recall has been accomplished."  That was for a
>> faulty ignition switch which seemed to have an alarm clock built in
>> and would ignite the truck at 2:00 AM.
>>
>> Just because Schleicher's livelihood depends upon providing good, safe
>> products does not mean that their products will not do something
>> unexpected.
>>
>> Eric, your arguments hold more hope than water.
>>
>> Dan
>> 5J
>
>

My Jeta will not have room for a personal parachute, or a canopy that can be ejected, as
it would delay delivery significantly. Jetas built after mine will be the Jeta+ versions
with the bigger wing and the option for using a personal parachute. Since I think the
biggest fire risk is a fire caused by the failure of the motor controller electronics,
which is mounted in the center fuselage and near the BRS. To mitigate that risk, I will
order the optional motor controller fire suppression system.

A fire suppression option is also available for the wing mounted batteries, and I am
considering ordering that system, too.

On 4/4/2022 11:02 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
> ...And I have plans in place for the unfortunate eventually.
>
> But just because your Jeta comes equipped with a BRS parachute, I wouldn't skip the
> personal one.  Here's a link.  I'm sure there are more.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BH3XTseNpw0
>
> Dan
> 5J
>
> On 4/4/22 07:28, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> Every company building complex vehicles will have problems resulting ADs or recalls. The
>> ones you trust will respond immediately to flaws, notifying you, and fixing it. That's
>> your Ford situation, and also the initial FES battery situation.
>>
>> Tom is not talking about that kind of situation (a design or manufacturing flaw that can
>> be fixed), he's arguing the batteries used in gliders are inherently unsafe, that no
>> amount of design can overcome that, and that the glider manufacturers don't understand
>> that obvious fact, or are willing to risk their customer's safety and their business
>> success on gliders that don't even have enough performance to be useful.
>>
>> Schleicher, Schmepp-Hirth, DG, Jonkers - they are all building electric powered gliders.
>> Who are you going to trust: the glider manufacturers, or Tom? In some sense, you've
>> answered that question already, since you continue to drive vehicles with ignition
>> switches, and fly a model of glider that has caught fire in flight.
>>
>> On 4/3/2022 8:26 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
>>>
>>> On 4/2/22 18:06, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>>>
>>> "You trust Schleicher
>>>  > to build a safe, high performance glider, since you owned an ASH26E and
>>>  > now you fly an ASH31Mi. Why don't trust them to do the same with the
>>>  > ASG32EL, AS33Me, and AS34Me?"
>>>
>>> Just what I was thinking about my 1988 Ford F-150 truck when Ford sent me a recall
>>> notice which said, in part, "Don't park your truck in the garage until this recall has
>>> been accomplished."  That was for a faulty ignition switch which seemed to have an
>>> alarm clock built in and would ignite the truck at 2:00 AM.
>>>
>>> Just because Schleicher's livelihood depends upon providing good, safe products does
>>> not mean that their products will not do something unexpected.
>>>
>>> Eric, your arguments hold more hope than water.
>>>
>>> Dan
>>> 5J
>>
>>

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Cool!

Dan
5J

On 4/4/22 12:33, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> I will order the optional motor controller fire suppression system.

On Monday, April 4, 2022 at 11:34:02 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> My Jeta will not have room for a personal parachute, or a canopy that can be ejected, as
> it would delay delivery significantly. Jetas built after mine will be the Jeta+ versions
> with the bigger wing and the option for using a personal parachute. Since I think the
> biggest fire risk is a fire caused by the failure of the motor controller electronics,
> which is mounted in the center fuselage and near the BRS. To mitigate that risk, I will
> order the optional motor controller fire suppression system.
>
> A fire suppression option is also available for the wing mounted batteries, and I am
> considering ordering that system, too.
> On 4/4/2022 11:02 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > ...And I have plans in place for the unfortunate eventually.
> >
> > But just because your Jeta comes equipped with a BRS parachute, I wouldn't skip the
> > personal one. Here's a link. I'm sure there are more.
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BH3XTseNpw0
> >
> > Dan
> > 5J
> >
> > On 4/4/22 07:28, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> >> Every company building complex vehicles will have problems resulting ADs or recalls. The
> >> ones you trust will respond immediately to flaws, notifying you, and fixing it. That's
> >> your Ford situation, and also the initial FES battery situation.
> >>
> >> Tom is not talking about that kind of situation (a design or manufacturing flaw that can
> >> be fixed), he's arguing the batteries used in gliders are inherently unsafe, that no
> >> amount of design can overcome that, and that the glider manufacturers don't understand
> >> that obvious fact, or are willing to risk their customer's safety and their business
> >> success on gliders that don't even have enough performance to be useful.
> >>
> >> Schleicher, Schmepp-Hirth, DG, Jonkers - they are all building electric powered gliders.
> >> Who are you going to trust: the glider manufacturers, or Tom? In some sense, you've
> >> answered that question already, since you continue to drive vehicles with ignition
> >> switches, and fly a model of glider that has caught fire in flight.
> >>
> >> On 4/3/2022 8:26 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
> >>>
> >>> On 4/2/22 18:06, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> >>>
> >>> "You trust Schleicher
> >>> > to build a safe, high performance glider, since you owned an ASH26E and
> >>> > now you fly an ASH31Mi. Why don't trust them to do the same with the
> >>> > ASG32EL, AS33Me, and AS34Me?"
> >>>
> >>> Just what I was thinking about my 1988 Ford F-150 truck when Ford sent me a recall
> >>> notice which said, in part, "Don't park your truck in the garage until this recall has
> >>> been accomplished." That was for a faulty ignition switch which seemed to have an
> >>> alarm clock built in and would ignite the truck at 2:00 AM.
> >>>
> >>> Just because Schleicher's livelihood depends upon providing good, safe products does
> >>> not mean that their products will not do something unexpected.
> >>>
> >>> Eric, your arguments hold more hope than water.
> >>>
> >>> Dan
> >>> 5J
> >>
> >>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - USA
> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Unfortunately, lithium battery fires can't be suppressed - they generate their own oxygen unlike gasoline fires (it's built into the chemistry). I have been repeating this warning most times that I post about lithium battery fires. A friend of mine cancelled his order for a Jeta for this very reason..

Tom

On Monday, April 4, 2022 at 6:28:13 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> Every company building complex vehicles will have problems resulting ADs or recalls. The
> ones you trust will respond immediately to flaws, notifying you, and fixing it. That's
> your Ford situation, and also the initial FES battery situation.
>
> Tom is not talking about that kind of situation (a design or manufacturing flaw that can
> be fixed), he's arguing the batteries used in gliders are inherently unsafe, that no
> amount of design can overcome that, and that the glider manufacturers don't understand
> that obvious fact, or are willing to risk their customer's safety and their business
> success on gliders that don't even have enough performance to be useful.
>
> Schleicher, Schmepp-Hirth, DG, Jonkers - they are all building electric powered gliders.
> Who are you going to trust: the glider manufacturers, or Tom? In some sense, you've
> answered that question already, since you continue to drive vehicles with ignition
> switches, and fly a model of glider that has caught fire in flight.
> On 4/3/2022 8:26 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
> >
> > On 4/2/22 18:06, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> >
> > "You trust Schleicher
> > > to build a safe, high performance glider, since you owned an ASH26E and
> > > now you fly an ASH31Mi. Why don't trust them to do the same with the
> > > ASG32EL, AS33Me, and AS34Me?"
> >
> > Just what I was thinking about my 1988 Ford F-150 truck when Ford sent me a recall notice
> > which said, in part, "Don't park your truck in the garage until this recall has been
> > accomplished." That was for a faulty ignition switch which seemed to have an alarm clock
> > built in and would ignite the truck at 2:00 AM.
> >
> > Just because Schleicher's livelihood depends upon providing good, safe products does not
> > mean that their products will not do something unexpected.
> >
> > Eric, your arguments hold more hope than water.
> >
> > Dan
> > 5J
> --
> Eric Greenwell - USA
> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

The model Schleicher that caught fire was a 26e, which I don't fly anymore (I own a 31Mi). Every 26e glider that caught fire was landed w/o incident, completely unlike the Taurus Electro where the pilot could not make it less than one mile back to the airport. And the 26e's that caught fire were the result of very poor maintenance or a plastic carb cap that has since been changed to a metal version.

Tom

On 4/4/2022 2:33 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> My Jeta will not have room for a personal parachute, or a canopy that
> can be ejected, as it would delay delivery significantly....

Oy! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Into which century???
Not a problem, as we know glider pilots never have to bail out.

On 4/4/2022 8:06 PM, 2G wrote:
> The model Schleicher that caught fire was a 26e, which I don't fly anymore (I own a 31Mi).

Um, what about the 25 fires??
One happened to a friend of mine.
Original cooling shroud material was flammable (replaced by metal)...

On 4/4/22 20:31, Dave Nadler wrote:
> On 4/4/2022 8:06 PM, 2G wrote:
>> The model Schleicher that caught fire was a 26e, which I don't fly
>> anymore (I own a 31Mi).
>
> Um, what about the 25 fires??
> One happened to a friend of mine.
> Original cooling shroud material was flammable (replaced by metal)...

"replaced" is too a strong a word. The carbon fiber shrouds have never
been subject to mandatory replacement, although the mufflers have been.

But of course a company that makes mistakes like that couldn't possibly
screw up a complex electric system.