On Thu, 25 Nov 2021 02:07:49 +0000, Andy Burns wrote:

>> *Everything you need to know about Android's Project Mainline*
>> <https://www.xda-developers.com/android-project-mainline-modules-explanation/>
>
> Is that article authored by you with a different hat on?

I'm all over XDA-Developers, and have been for years, but I do take that as
a compliment in terms of writing style & my attention to immense detail.

Bear in mind I've written thousands of white papers in a variety of Silicon
Valley startups, and of course I'm published in scientific journals, as I've
led a diversified life in some of the finest schools in this country prior
to moving to the Silicon Valley to work on high tech bleeding edge products.

I just haven't ever met people, in the flesh anyway, as ignorant as most
people who post to this newsgroup are (yet that unfathomable ignorance we
saw in the FOSS thread is far worse on the Apple smartphone newsgroups).

Anyway, back on topic, it's pretty clear Google Play (com.android.vending)
updates only a subset of apps, namely what it considers "google" apps.
C:\> adb shell pm list packages google | find /c /v ""

Which is what it actually says when you run the Google Play checker.
<https://i.postimg.cc/pLwVw50j/updateallapps07.jpg>

Meanwhile apps such as App Update Checker seem to find hundreds of updates.
<https://i.postimg.cc/kgBB3mq0/updateallapps05.jpg>

Yet apps such as Update Software Checker still use Google Play to update.
<https://i.postimg.cc/fy8TpHFW/updateallapps06.jpg>

The distinction being that these Google-free free ad-free gsf-free app
updaters clearly don't use Google Play to check whether an update is
available for any given app, but they will use any registered tool for
updating apps to run the actual update process, one of which is Google Play.

On Thu, 25 Nov 2021 03:08:46 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:

> As I said, after I registered the tablet on a dummy gmail account
> created for the purpose, I managed to install a nice clock application
> which was the goal. The tablet is now serving as an accurate kitchen
> clock. Not picture perfect, far from it, but works nicely.

I'm happy it worked for you.

I suspect it would also have worked just fine _without_ needing the dummy
Google Account, simply by you installing & using the Aurora Store to
accomplish the same task, but with privacy.
https://forum.xda-developers.com/t/app-4-4-aurora-store-open-source-play-store-client-april-8-2021.3739733/

> However, the tablet forgets the wifi credentials when it reboots, and
> being old its battery is far from good. We thought that the WiFi
> credentials would be saved on the google account, but apparently that's
> not the case. Perhaps some update cured this problem previously, but the
> play store claims there are no updates for this old tablet, so I'm stuck.

I agree with your observation, where I didn't see any evidence that a Google
Account was the reason for the loss of the wi-fi password (e.g., my device
retains the wi-fi access point password just fine sans a Google Account).

I won't delve deeper but what I'd first do, if it was me, is figure out
exactly where the GUI is that saves the Wi-Fi connection information (I
provided what I think that Activity URI is already) and I'd then manually
run that Activity to ensure the wi-fi setup information is saved.
com.android.settings/com.android.settings.Settings$WifiAddNetworkActivity

Without being rooted, below Android 9, I don't know if we could actually
delve into the database where that wi-fi information is saved
/data/misc/wifi/wpa_supplicant.conf

But for Android versions of 10+, it's apparently quite easy to see.
https://www.google.com/search?q=wifi+password+not+saved+on+android

On 25/11/2021 03.47, Andy Burnelli wrote:
> On Wed, 24 Nov 2021 21:59:22 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>
>> Anyway, I bit the bullet and created a new google "burnable" account on
>> this thing.
>
> Hi Carlos,
>
> Thanks for letting us know what you're trying as I tried running the various
> update apps which each found hundreds of apps on Google Play repo to update.
> <https://i.postimg.cc/kgBB3mq0/updateallapps05.jpg>
>
>> The play store app now can not get the list of applications or new apps
>> to install - I left it trying for four hours. It produced no error, but
>> it simply does not work. And no updates whatsoever.
>
> One thing I found out is that the Play Store App (com.android.vending) only
> seems to look for _google_ apps, as shown in this screenshot below.
> <https://i.postimg.cc/pLwVw50j/updateallapps07.jpg>
>
> So it still doesn't seem to be looking for _all_ your apps to be updated.

In the past, when I bought this tablet, the play store app did update
many things, including the play store app itself. Those updates have
been probably removed by Google, they don't support this old version
anymore.

In fact, initially, when I bought this tablet, I used the 1Mobile app to
do updates, not registering the tablet. I found that these updates had
important bugs, so I decided to try the play store app after login. The
result was conflict (not being able to read the calendar apointments,
for example), so I did a factory reset and started over using only the
play store app for updates. This worked fine. That was 2016 or so.

Today, play store app finds nothing. Only Google Services.

>
>> Also, in main setup, accounts, the google account shows in red, saying
>> that there is a problem syncing which will be solved soon. Yeah, sure.
>
> Along that line, the one reason I have the Google GMail app disabled is
> that, in my experience, it syncs things (like contacts) even when you tell
> it not to (since it syncs _before_ you get a chance to tell it not to).
> <https://i.postimg.cc/RZT1dP8Z/notifications01.jpg>
>
> Another problem I've found, by experience, as I recall, is the instant you
> use some Google apps, they _create_ the Google Account on your phone
> automatically (without you asking them to). I think you refer that as
> "registering" the account with the phone.

No. I call registering to the act of entering the login/password pair to
enter the google account, in the phone or tablet. From that instant all
Google Apps connect to the Google Account: gmail, gcalendar, sync data,
youtube, etc. All of it.

In this case, I created a new account.

The phone can not register unless you enter the login/password pair, it
can not create a Google Account, it doesn't have an identifier for it.
Apps that depended, that needed this registration were failing.

>
> If you're going to keep your Google Account, you might want to consider
> disabling the Google Play app (which is what I normally have it set to).

No need. It is a dummy account.

>> There is a notification that says that login to the account failed,
>> wrong password or changed account (translating the message). That I can
>> try again. I try again, give the correct password, now says I have to
>> login on the web. Now it demands a phone number to send and SMS for
>> verification. Ok, I bite again.
>
> Sometimes, not often, but sometimes, you can give apps a bogus second line
> phone number (e.g., talkatone or 2nd line, or whatever) for that
> verification. Google is likely too smart for that trick though...

No, because it sends an SMS with a code to type. Mind, it does not
remember this number, it doesn't get tied to the account.

>
>> I try twice, I type the code I get on the SMS, but Google refuses it,
>> says it is wrong. If I press the "verify" button, the 3 last digits are
>> deleted. If instead I press "go" on the virtual keyboard, it also fails.
>> I will have to try on the computer.
>>
>> Not even on the computer.... The SMS has a code like "G-123456". The
>> computer stops accepting numbers on the 5. It appears I have to remove
>> the "G-", but it never said so. I got in, on the computer.
>>
>> It also demands to know my birth date, because that is the law, it claims.
>>
>> I try again on the tablet. I get one step further, browser asks to
>> accept a new permission (unreadable), I say ok, and then it claims that
>> authentication failed.
>>
>> This old tablet is simply too old for anything.
>
> I've seen similar, now that you mention it, with the "G-" stuff.
> The message they are asking is ambiguous as I recall.
> They're actually asking you to confirm your email or something like that.
> As I recall, it's not what any normal person would _think_ it's asking.
> But I don't recall the details - but I do agree it's confusing as all hell.
>
> Google should do better in their instructions, as I was fooled too.
>
>> Ah, but now sync is working!
>>
>> I can now update "Google Play Services" (there is a notification to do
>> so first). After that, I try the play store, but it claims there are no
>> updates available, after checking.
>
> You can test that by down-versioning a system app such as "google play
> services" or any of the "google" apps that are similar to the ones which
> show up in this shot when I ran the Google Play update action yesterday.
> <https://i.postimg.cc/3xxyCJYB/updateallapps04.jpg>
>
> In most cases, Android won't let you _delete_ the google app, but Android
> will normally let you down-version it to the original version that came with
> the device.
>
> Then, after doing that, when you run the update check, Google Play's
> "Update" button (I would think) "should" find that this one google app has
> the original version, I would think (logically anyway).

Ah, Google is not that logical, and it could also refuse to update the
app, which would force me to reset to factory to recover the app. Too
much work, considering that my goal is complete. Well, except it does
not remember the WiFi password.

>> I try to install a weather/clock app I know, it now says I have to
>> review my account. Wants a credit/debit card, but allows omitting. I
>> install the app. [...] The widget fails to find the location. If I type
>> the city it finds and accepts it, but the widget does not work. I'll try
>> another app. [...] "Gran reloj digital" from "Riccardo Camattari", just
>> the thing I wanted. No weather. Can't get everything :-)
>
> You can install apps that are on the Google Play repository using the Google
> Play app (as you know) as long as you have a Google Account "registered"
> with the Google Play app (and hence, with the phone, AFAIK).

Yes, that's what I'm doing.

>
> However, if you want, you can install any app you like off that same Google
> Play repository using the Aurora Store, which works better than Google Play
> does in that the filters are fantastic (Google Play filters stink).
> <https://gitlab.com/AuroraOSS>

No need, I only wanted a clock, and that one I found on google play is
perfect. Full screen, very configurable, no adverts (the description
says there are adverts, but only during configuration. Not an issue).

>
> While you and I are outliers, I would think most people don't realize what I
> found out, which is that Google Play's Update button doesn't seem to be
> updating just any app - but only "Google" apps (as far as I can ascertain).
>
> A test is shown with this app which updates hundreds of apps on Google Play
> but it actually uses Google Play to run that update (which means the _check_
> isn't via Google Play, but that the _download_ is, apparently, via Google
> Play. <https://i.postimg.cc/fy8TpHFW/updateallapps06.jpg>
>

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 25/11/2021 06.20, Andy Burnelli wrote:
> On Thu, 25 Nov 2021 03:08:46 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>
>> As I said, after I registered the tablet on a dummy gmail account
>> created for the purpose, I managed to install a nice clock application
>> which was the goal. The tablet is now serving as an accurate kitchen
>> clock. Not picture perfect, far from it, but works nicely.
>
> I'm happy it worked for you.
>
> I suspect it would also have worked just fine _without_ needing the dummy
> Google Account, simply by you installing & using the Aurora Store to
> accomplish the same task, but with privacy.
> https://forum.xda-developers.com/t/app-4-4-aurora-store-open-source-play-store-client-april-8-2021.3739733/

The assumption was that the WiFi password was stored on the google
account (local) data, which needed an account. It is not so.

>
>> However, the tablet forgets the wifi credentials when it reboots, and
>> being old its battery is far from good. We thought that the WiFi
>> credentials would be saved on the google account, but apparently that's
>> not the case. Perhaps some update cured this problem previously, but the
>> play store claims there are no updates for this old tablet, so I'm stuck.
>
> I agree with your observation, where I didn't see any evidence that a Google
> Account was the reason for the loss of the wi-fi password (e.g., my device
> retains the wi-fi access point password just fine sans a Google Account).
Right, thus it is a bug in the tablet.

> I won't delve deeper but what I'd first do, if it was me, is figure out
> exactly where the GUI is that saves the Wi-Fi connection information (I
> provided what I think that Activity URI is already) and I'd then manually
> run that Activity to ensure the wi-fi setup information is saved.
> com.android.settings/com.android.settings.Settings$WifiAddNetworkActivity
>
> Without being rooted, below Android 9, I don't know if we could actually
> delve into the database where that wi-fi information is saved
> /data/misc/wifi/wpa_supplicant.conf
>
> But for Android versions of 10+, it's apparently quite easy to see.
> https://www.google.com/search?q=wifi+password+not+saved+on+android

Where it saves the password (or not) is irrelevant. It just doesn't
remember the password after boot. The guess now is that there is a bug,
which maybe an update would solve (or not). Installing another app to
find updates is a possibility which I hesitate to take. Maybe another day.

Or, I can simply save the guest wifi password in a text file for
pasting, and move on.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On Thu, 25 Nov 2021 13:11:41 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:

> Today, play store app finds nothing. Only Google Services.

If you can sideload with that tablet, I, for one, would be very interested
if the FOSS Aurora Store solves all your app-installation issues instantly.
<https://files.auroraoss.com/AuroraStore/Stable/>

Not only does the Aurora Store download from the same repository as does
Google Play (AFAIK), and not only does the Aurora Store provide the filters
anyone would want (they're fantastic), but the Aurora Store can also spoof
any Android tablet you want it to spoof (make, model, and software version).

In addition, the Aurora Store can autoupdate, which is also better than GP.
<https://i.postimg.cc/ZR25xq5Q/aurora03.jpg>

Personally, I can't find _any_ downside to the Aurora Store. Can you?

As you must be aware, my phone has no Google Account and it downloads and
installs any app I want to get from the Google Play repository, even as the
Google Play app itself, is always disabled (I only enabled it to help you).
<https://i.postimg.cc/BZMzpG4C/updateallapps08.jpg>

>> Another problem I've found, by experience, as I recall, is the instant you
>> use some Google apps, they _create_ the Google Account on your phone
>> automatically (without you asking them to). I think you refer that as
>> "registering" the account with the phone.
>
> No. I call registering to the act of entering the login/password pair to
> enter the google account, in the phone or tablet. From that instant all
> Google Apps connect to the Google Account: gmail, gcalendar, sync data,
> youtube, etc. All of it.

Thank you for clarifying what you meant by "registering" the phone with
Google.

This is what you're doing, if I understand you correctly.
1. You create the Google Account on the phone
2. Then, when you use certain Google apps (like GMail or the Play Store or
Google Voice), you're already automatically logged into that app (simply by
virtue of being logged into the Google Account you created for the phone).

What I'm saying is if the Google Account already exists, but it has never
been used on the phone, a similar thing still happens, but in a single step.
1. You log into certain Google apps (see above list) and what they do,
sneakily so, is they _create_ a Google Account on the phone for you!

At least that has been my experience.
Nonetheless, I fully believe what you clarified is happening is happening,
which I appreciate that you clarified as text is a horrible two-way medium.
> In this case, I created a new account.

Yes. See above.
If you already had that account, Google would _create_ it on the phone for
you the _instant_ you log into certain apps (see list above).

This is exactly why I _disable_ the GMail app by the way, as not only will
Google automatically _create an account_ on the phone for you the instant
you log into your Google Mail using the GMail app, but in my tests long ago,
Google's GMail app automatically sucked up your contacts _before_ you have a
chance to tell it not to.

The instant an app does that, I get rid of it, which is why I disable GMail.
<https://i.postimg.cc/RZT1dP8Z/notifications01.jpg>

I use K9 Mail or some other MUA instead to access my Google Account email.

> The phone can not register unless you enter the login/password pair, it
> can not create a Google Account, it doesn't have an identifier for it.
> Apps that depended, that needed this registration were failing.

In my experience, even when the phone does not have any Google Account

the _instant_ I "log into google" using the "GMail" app, it sneakily
_creates_ the Google Account

>>
>> If you're going to keep your Google Account, you might want to consider
>> disabling the Google Play app (which is what I normally have it set to).
>
> No need. It is a dummy account.

Um... ok.
When I create a throwaway email account, I use TOR or VPN to create it.
Then, when I access it, I still use TOR or VPN (which Google hates).

>> Then, after doing that, when you run the update check, Google Play's
>> "Update" button (I would think) "should" find that this one google app has
>> the original version, I would think (logically anyway).
>
> Ah, Google is not that logical, and it could also refuse to update the
> app, which would force me to reset to factory to recover the app. Too
> much work, considering that my goal is complete. Well, except it does
> not remember the WiFi password.

The Aurora Store appears to update any app, since you can spoof your device.
<https://i.postimg.cc/ZR25xq5Q/aurora03.jpg>

Remember, the Aurora Store _is_ Google Play.
It's just a client on the same repo (AFAIK).

It's no different from using Firefox instead of Chrome to access your mail.

>> You can install apps that are on the Google Play repository using the Google
>> Play app (as you know) as long as you have a Google Account "registered"
>> with the Google Play app (and hence, with the phone, AFAIK).
>
> Yes, that's what I'm doing.

Yes. What you're doing (creating a Google Account) is working for you.
I would have suggested you do the same thing _without_ creating the account.
<https://i.postimg.cc/NjkLvYdy/aurora01.jpg>
>> However, if you want, you can install any app you like off that same Google
>> Play repository using the Aurora Store, which works better than Google Play
>> does in that the filters are fantastic (Google Play filters stink).
>> <https://gitlab.com/AuroraOSS>
>
> No need, I only wanted a clock, and that one I found on google play is
> perfect. Full screen, very configurable, no adverts (the description
> says there are adverts, but only during configuration. Not an issue).

Note the filters in the Aurora Store work fantastically to block that crap.
<https://i.postimg.cc/W3h4ZZTr/aurora02.jpg>

I should start a thread on why people are resistant to using the Aurora
Store when I can't think of a single downside to using it myself. Sigh.

On Thu, 25 Nov 2021 03:10:52 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:

>> The question nobody yet knows the answer to is why isn't Google Play finding
>> _all_ the apps which clearly have updates on the Google Play repository?
>
> Maybe they are not fully correct updates for that hardware, but similar.

While I don't know the complete list of "packages" that Google Play
(com.android.vending) will update, it appears likely Google Play uses Google
Play Services (com.google.android.gms) to run its updates.
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.google.android.gms>

Which says in the first line of the description:
"Google Play services is used to update Google apps and apps from Google
Play."

There are also similar words that Google Play (com.android.vending) only
updates (what it considers to be) _Google_ apps when you run the update GUI.
<https://i.postimg.cc/pLwVw50j/updateallapps07.jpg>

However, they seem to be taking "Google apps" pretty far in that it finds
Samsung apps and T-Mobile apps when com.android.vending runs on my system.
<https://i.postimg.cc/3xxyCJYB/updateallapps04.jpg>

And yet, Google Play update does NOT find _hundreds_ of apps that clearly
have a newer version in the Google Play store, which other apps easily find.
<https://i.postimg.cc/kgBB3mq0/updateallapps05.jpg>

One problem I have is almost all my user apps were installed from Google
Play using the Aurora Store, but unfortunately, the Aurora Store isn't an
option in any general app update checker that I tested for you yesterday.
<https://i.postimg.cc/fy8TpHFW/updateallapps06.jpg>

What I need to figure out is _how_ to get the Aurora Store instead of Google
Play to be in the list of apps that these update apps will choose to use.
--
Every time we help someone with a question, we learn a ton ourselves.

On Thu, 25 Nov 2021 13:20:11 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:

> The assumption was that the WiFi password was stored on the google
> account (local) data, which needed an account. It is not so.

While Google "steals" a lot of our private data, I can't think of any "good"
reason why Google would take our Wi-Fi passphrases; but, for all I know,
they could be doing that secretly under the covers like they take our
valuable personal contacts almost every chance they get.

>>> However, the tablet forgets the wifi credentials when it reboots, and
>>> being old its battery is far from good. We thought that the WiFi
>>> credentials would be saved on the google account, but apparently that's
>>> not the case. Perhaps some update cured this problem previously, but the
>>> play store claims there are no updates for this old tablet, so I'm stuck.
>>
>> I agree with your observation, where I didn't see any evidence that a Google
>> Account was the reason for the loss of the wi-fi password (e.g., my device
>> retains the wi-fi access point password just fine sans a Google Account).
>
> Right, thus it is a bug in the tablet.

What I expect from you is the same as what I expect from anyone else.
a) Knowledge
b) Intelligence

You need both to debug.

I own cars many years old and counting (some of which are German, so they
break a _lot_), and each time I search for a solution, I'm horrified at how
many cars are fixed simply by people throwing parts at them.

Very few people own the necessary knowledge and intelligence to debug
issues. If the cooling system isn't working, they replace the thermostat; if
the brakes are shuddering, they replace the rotors; if the engine is
sputtering they pour seafoam to "repair" it, etc.

It's extremely common for an Android device to forget the password.
<https://duckduckgo.com/?q=android+wifi+keeps+forgetting+password>

I'd run down all those potential solutions before I claim it's a Google bug.

Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
> Andy Burnelli wrote:
>
> > *Everything you need to know about Android's Project Mainline*
> > <https://www.xda-developers.com/android-project-mainline-modules-explanation/>
>
> Is that article authored by you with a different hat on?

You're joking, right!?

On 25/11/2021 17.10, Andy Burnelli wrote:
> On Thu, 25 Nov 2021 13:20:11 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>
>> The assumption was that the WiFi password was stored on the google
>> account (local) data, which needed an account. It is not so.
>
> While Google "steals" a lot of our private data, I can't think of any "good"
> reason why Google would take our Wi-Fi passphrases; but, for all I know,
> they could be doing that secretly under the covers like they take our
> valuable personal contacts almost every chance they get.

It is quite common for tablets and phones to protect the wifi password
under the google password "somehow". As application data of the wifi
application, for instance.

I don't object to this.

>
>>>> However, the tablet forgets the wifi credentials when it reboots, and
>>>> being old its battery is far from good. We thought that the WiFi
>>>> credentials would be saved on the google account, but apparently that's
>>>> not the case. Perhaps some update cured this problem previously, but the
>>>> play store claims there are no updates for this old tablet, so I'm stuck.
>>>
>>> I agree with your observation, where I didn't see any evidence that a Google
>>> Account was the reason for the loss of the wi-fi password (e.g., my device
>>> retains the wi-fi access point password just fine sans a Google Account).
>>
>> Right, thus it is a bug in the tablet.
>
> What I expect from you is the same as what I expect from anyone else.
> a) Knowledge
> b) Intelligence
>
> You need both to debug.
>
> I own cars many years old and counting (some of which are German, so they
> break a _lot_), and each time I search for a solution, I'm horrified at how
> many cars are fixed simply by people throwing parts at them.
>
> Very few people own the necessary knowledge and intelligence to debug
> issues. If the cooling system isn't working, they replace the thermostat; if
> the brakes are shuddering, they replace the rotors; if the engine is
> sputtering they pour seafoam to "repair" it, etc.
>
> It's extremely common for an Android device to forget the password.
> <https://duckduckgo.com/?q=android+wifi+keeps+forgetting+password>
>
> I'd run down all those potential solutions before I claim it's a Google bug.

I did not say "google bug", just bug. Very likely, crap tablet
manufacturer bug.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 25/11/2021 17.10, Andy Burnelli wrote:
> On Thu, 25 Nov 2021 13:11:41 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>
>> Today, play store app finds nothing. Only Google Services.
>
> If you can sideload with that tablet, I, for one, would be very interested
> if the FOSS Aurora Store solves all your app-installation issues instantly.
> <https://files.auroraoss.com/AuroraStore/Stable/>
>
> Not only does the Aurora Store download from the same repository as does
> Google Play (AFAIK), and not only does the Aurora Store provide the filters
> anyone would want (they're fantastic), but the Aurora Store can also spoof
> any Android tablet you want it to spoof (make, model, and software version).
>
> In addition, the Aurora Store can autoupdate, which is also better than GP.
> <https://i.postimg.cc/ZR25xq5Q/aurora03.jpg>
>
> Personally, I can't find _any_ downside to the Aurora Store. Can you?

I can't be fully sure that it offers the exact updates this tablet
needs. I could offer the wrong variant.

> As you must be aware, my phone has no Google Account and it downloads and
> installs any app I want to get from the Google Play repository, even as the
> Google Play app itself, is always disabled (I only enabled it to help you).
> <https://i.postimg.cc/BZMzpG4C/updateallapps08.jpg>
>
>>> Another problem I've found, by experience, as I recall, is the instant you
>>> use some Google apps, they _create_ the Google Account on your phone
>>> automatically (without you asking them to). I think you refer that as
>>> "registering" the account with the phone.
>>
>> No. I call registering to the act of entering the login/password pair to
>> enter the google account, in the phone or tablet. From that instant all
>> Google Apps connect to the Google Account: gmail, gcalendar, sync data,
>> youtube, etc. All of it.
>
> Thank you for clarifying what you meant by "registering" the phone with
> Google.
>
> This is what you're doing, if I understand you correctly.
> 1. You create the Google Account on the phone

Tablet, actually.
Then I had to activate the account on a web browser.
It is a new account, and has no contact information to share.

> 2. Then, when you use certain Google apps (like GMail or the Play Store or
> Google Voice), you're already automatically logged into that app (simply by
> virtue of being logged into the Google Account you created for the phone).

Certainly.

> What I'm saying is if the Google Account already exists, but it has never
> been used on the phone, a similar thing still happens, but in a single step.
> 1. You log into certain Google apps (see above list) and what they do,
> sneakily so, is they _create_ a Google Account on the phone for you!

Of course.

That's a non issue for me.

> At least that has been my experience.
> Nonetheless, I fully believe what you clarified is happening is happening,
> which I appreciate that you clarified as text is a horrible two-way medium.
>
>> In this case, I created a new account.
>
> Yes. See above.
> If you already had that account, Google would _create_ it on the phone for
> you the _instant_ you log into certain apps (see list above).
>
> This is exactly why I _disable_ the GMail app by the way, as not only will
> Google automatically _create an account_ on the phone for you the instant
> you log into your Google Mail using the GMail app, but in my tests long ago,
> Google's GMail app automatically sucked up your contacts _before_ you have a
> chance to tell it not to.

There are no contacts to suck. Empty tablet. Not an issue.

> The instant an app does that, I get rid of it, which is why I disable GMail.
> <https://i.postimg.cc/RZT1dP8Z/notifications01.jpg>
>
> I use K9 Mail or some other MUA instead to access my Google Account email.
>
>> The phone can not register unless you enter the login/password pair, it
>> can not create a Google Account, it doesn't have an identifier for it.
>> Apps that depended, that needed this registration were failing.
>
> In my experience, even when the phone does not have any Google Account
>
> the _instant_ I "log into google" using the "GMail" app, it sneakily
> _creates_ the Google Account

Of course it does. I expect that to happen. Not an issue.

>
>>>
>>> If you're going to keep your Google Account, you might want to consider
>>> disabling the Google Play app (which is what I normally have it set to).
>>
>> No need. It is a dummy account.
>
> Um... ok.
> When I create a throwaway email account, I use TOR or VPN to create it.
> Then, when I access it, I still use TOR or VPN (which Google hates).

Not an issue either :-D

I don't care they know where I am. And using such a thing in this old
tablet is a complication I do not need nor want, even if it supports it.

If I cared about privacy that much, I would simply never use Android.

I'm not going to throw away that account, I simply will not "use" it. It
is gratis.

>>> Then, after doing that, when you run the update check, Google Play's
>>> "Update" button (I would think) "should" find that this one google app has
>>> the original version, I would think (logically anyway).
>>
>> Ah, Google is not that logical, and it could also refuse to update the
>> app, which would force me to reset to factory to recover the app. Too
>> much work, considering that my goal is complete. Well, except it does
>> not remember the WiFi password.
>
> The Aurora Store appears to update any app, since you can spoof your device.
> <https://i.postimg.cc/ZR25xq5Q/aurora03.jpg>
>
> Remember, the Aurora Store _is_ Google Play.
> It's just a client on the same repo (AFAIK).
>
> It's no different from using Firefox instead of Chrome to access your mail.
>
>>> You can install apps that are on the Google Play repository using the Google
>>> Play app (as you know) as long as you have a Google Account "registered"
>>> with the Google Play app (and hence, with the phone, AFAIK).
>>
>> Yes, that's what I'm doing.
>
> Yes. What you're doing (creating a Google Account) is working for you.
> I would have suggested you do the same thing _without_ creating the account.
> <https://i.postimg.cc/NjkLvYdy/aurora01.jpg>

Seemed easier.

>
>>> However, if you want, you can install any app you like off that same Google
>>> Play repository using the Aurora Store, which works better than Google Play
>>> does in that the filters are fantastic (Google Play filters stink).
>>> <https://gitlab.com/AuroraOSS>
>>
>> No need, I only wanted a clock, and that one I found on google play is
>> perfect. Full screen, very configurable, no adverts (the description
>> says there are adverts, but only during configuration. Not an issue).
>
> Note the filters in the Aurora Store work fantastically to block that crap.
> <https://i.postimg.cc/W3h4ZZTr/aurora02.jpg>

I really do not care if the application shows some adverts during
configuration, it is not an issue at all. I'm glad the developer gets
some revenue from those adverts.

Now, nosy adverts that eat battery or dig bitcoins, or hide the screen,
or get in the way, those I care.

>
> I should start a thread on why people are resistant to using the Aurora
> Store when I can't think of a single downside to using it myself. Sigh.
>

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On Thu, 25 Nov 2021 23:13:44 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:

>> Personally, I can't find _any_ downside to the Aurora Store. Can you?
>
> I can't be fully sure that it offers the exact updates this tablet
> needs. I could offer the wrong variant.

As far as I can tell, the Aurora Store google-play client is no different
when going to the google server than using Firefix instead of using Chrome
would be when going to any given web server.

Just as using K9-mail as your client gets you the same email messages when
going to the google imap server as using the GMail client would get.

The client isn't going to give you what isn't already there on the server.

>> This is what you're doing, if I understand you correctly.
>> 1. You create the Google Account on the phone
>
> Tablet, actually.
> Then I had to activate the account on a web browser.
> It is a new account, and has no contact information to share.

Yes. I've done the same thing when creating Google accounts.
I agree with you that the "G-" message is confusing.
I've asked Google to fix it, and I hope you did also.
In my experience, it wasn't asking what I had _thought_ it was asking.
It's confusing.
Worse, it won't work until you give it what it wants.
I don't remember the details though - just that it happened to me too.
> There are no contacts to suck. Empty tablet. Not an issue.

Good. I have to delete my contacts sqlite database, which is a PITA since
then I have to find only the best contact managers and phone dialers and
sms/text apps which can import (and export) their own contact databases.
>> the _instant_ I "log into google" using the "GMail" app, it sneakily
>> _creates_ the Google Account
>
> Of course it does. I expect that to happen. Not an issue.

Well, no other MUA does that, so why should the Google MUA do that?
Likewise that no other nav app sets the sneaky settings to upload all your
neighbors' wifi BSSIDs to Google - only Google Maps does that.

In that manner, it's sneaky as they don't tell you what they're doing.
I know because I have all that stuff set off.

But most people don't know that when Google turns on "location", it turns on
a whole plethora of sneaky stuff that the other nav programs don't turn on.

> If I cared about privacy that much, I would simply never use Android.

Realistically you have a choice of iOS (which isn't even close to private),
or Android, where at least with Android you can make it private if you're
intelligent about it.

With iOS, it's so crippled, you have to give away your privacy. But let's
leave that for the iOS newsgroup to discuss, but rest assured, I know what
I'm talking about (e.g., you can spoof your location on Android but not on
iOS as just one of very many examples of why privacy on iOS only exists in
the advertisements).

With iOS you have no privacy, even if you're intelligent.
With Android, you only have no privacy if you're ignorant.

> I'm not going to throw away that account, I simply will not "use" it. It
> is gratis.

I have so many email accounts I can't chastise you for keeping one.

> I really do not care if the application shows some adverts during
> configuration, it is not an issue at all. I'm glad the developer gets
> some revenue from those adverts.
>
> Now, nosy adverts that eat battery or dig bitcoins, or hide the screen,
> or get in the way, those I care.

I don't think I've ever seen an advertisement on Android except when I was
testing software, and the moment I see an ad, that app is toast.

I opened up a separate thread asking whether there are any disadvantages to
using the FOSS google play client instead of the proprietary one.
*Are there any downsides to supplementing the Google Play client(
*with the Aurora Store client?*
<https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android/c/zGYFITEjemc>

If any exist, I don't know of them.

On 25 Nov 2021 20:13:13 GMT, Frank Slootweg wrote:

> You're joking, right!?

Frank,
Please stop polluting this newsgroup with your off-topic trolls.
This is something like the tenth off topic troll you've done in a row.
If you have nothing of value to add to the topic, why must you prove it?

Frank Slootweg wrote:

> Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
>
>> Andy Burnelli wrote:
>>
>>> *Everything you need to know about Android's Project Mainline*
>>> <https://www.xda-developers.com/android-project-mainline-modules-explanation/>
>>
>> Is that article authored by you with a different hat on?
>
> You're joking, right!?

Yes I was, but I was trying to show a potential issue with not knowing who on
XDA might be another Arlen nym.

On 26/11/2021 04.16, Andy Burnelli wrote:
> On Thu, 25 Nov 2021 23:13:44 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>
>>> Personally, I can't find _any_ downside to the Aurora Store. Can you?
>>
>> I can't be fully sure that it offers the exact updates this tablet
>> needs. I could offer the wrong variant.
>
> As far as I can tell, the Aurora Store google-play client is no different
> when going to the google server than using Firefix instead of using Chrome
> would be when going to any given web server.
>
> Just as using K9-mail as your client gets you the same email messages when
> going to the google imap server as using the GMail client would get.
>
> The client isn't going to give you what isn't already there on the server.

But the server can have many variation versions intended for different
implementations. If that is the case, I trust google play to knows this.

>>> This is what you're doing, if I understand you correctly.
>>> 1. You create the Google Account on the phone
>>
>> Tablet, actually.
>> Then I had to activate the account on a web browser.
>> It is a new account, and has no contact information to share.
>
> Yes. I've done the same thing when creating Google accounts.
> I agree with you that the "G-" message is confusing.
> I've asked Google to fix it, and I hope you did also.

Nope.

At the time, I did not see an item for feedback.

> In my experience, it wasn't asking what I had _thought_ it was asking.
> It's confusing.
> Worse, it won't work until you give it what it wants.
> I don't remember the details though - just that it happened to me too.
>
>> There are no contacts to suck. Empty tablet. Not an issue.
>
> Good. I have to delete my contacts sqlite database, which is a PITA since
> then I have to find only the best contact managers and phone dialers and
> sms/text apps which can import (and export) their own contact databases.
>
>>> the _instant_ I "log into google" using the "GMail" app, it sneakily
>>> _creates_ the Google Account
>>
>> Of course it does. I expect that to happen. Not an issue.
>
> Well, no other MUA does that, so why should the Google MUA do that?
> Likewise that no other nav app sets the sneaky settings to upload all your
> neighbors' wifi BSSIDs to Google - only Google Maps does that.

Because it is Google, it is a suite. It is intended that way. Enter the
account just once, all the tools will work and use it, transparently.
Design method. Like it or not, use it or not.

As I said, I expected that. Not surprised at all.

> In that manner, it's sneaky as they don't tell you what they're doing.
> I know because I have all that stuff set off.
>
> But most people don't know that when Google turns on "location", it turns on
> a whole plethora of sneaky stuff that the other nav programs don't turn on.
>
>> If I cared about privacy that much, I would simply never use Android.
>
> Realistically you have a choice of iOS (which isn't even close to private),
> or Android, where at least with Android you can make it private if you're
> intelligent about it.

Nay, I would buy a Linux tablet to do clock duty. Or buy an arduino or
similar, attach a display, and do it. This is faster.

....

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On Fri, 26 Nov 2021 08:15:37 +0000, Andy Burns wrote:

> Yes I was, but I was trying to show a potential issue with not knowing who on
> XDA might be another Arlen nym.

Notice Frank Slootweg hasn't contributed a single iota of value to this
newsgroup in his last dozen (or even three dozen) posts, Andy.

Then compare Frank Slootweg's incessant off topic trolling to the value I
added in just a single thread (e.g., the FOSS thread), Andy.

I add tremendous value because I'm a good person, Andy.
Frank Slootweg is incapable of adding any on topic value, because he's not.

Clearly Frank Slootweg, based on what he posts, is a worthless piece of shit
completely devoid of the capability (or desire) to ever add value.

To answer your question even further, bear in mind I have so many thread on
XDA-Developers it's not funny, under a variety of privacy based nyms
(because my goal is to add value - not to become famous on the Internet).

Notice I'm quite unlike the worthless pieces of shit who infested the FOSS
thread, Andy. I'm purposefully helpful for one thing because I care about
good people.

I'm knowledgeable for another. And more importantly, I'm intelligent.
Almost all the worthless pieces of shit who polluted the FOSS thread aren't.

For example, who do you think authored these tutorials on XDA, Andy?
https://forum.xda-developers.com/t/google-gcam-port-for-the-samsung-galaxy-a32-5g.4275449/
https://forum.xda-developers.com/t/google-recorder-port-for-the-samsung-galaxy-a32-5g.4275695/
https://forum.xda-developers.com/t/how-to-duplicate-what-adb-does-to-ad-hoc-open-any-given-activity-on-the-android-phone.4337863/#post-85696813
https://forum.xda-developers.com/t/how-to-manually-create-a-homescreen-shortcut-to-a-known-unique-android-activity.4336833/
etc.

Notice just one thread in XDA of mine is more value added than Frank
Slootweg has ever added to this newsgroup in the history of this ng.

It's always that way with these worthless pieces of shit like Frank
Slootweg. All they can do is deprecate the activities of others.

It's doubtful Frank Slootweg even has a high school diploma, and yet he has
the gall to troll the shit out of this newsgroup, without ever being able to
add even a single iota of added value.

On Fri, 26 Nov 2021 11:08:21 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:

>> The client isn't going to give you what isn't already there on the server.
>
> But the server can have many variation versions intended for different
> implementations. If that is the case, I trust google play to knows this.

While I don't claim to be an expert in the FOSS Aurora Store code, if _that_
is what you're worried about, you may as well crawl into a cave right now
(because far worse worries of far greater chance of happening exist).

For example, an asteroid could destroy the earth tomorrow also, if you want
to worry about things so badly, I'd worry more about that instead.

It's not usually the Android owners who are afraid of their own shadow.
(It's usually the iPhone owners whom Apple feeds with irrational fears.)

>> Well, no other MUA does that, so why should the Google MUA do that?
>> Likewise that no other nav app sets the sneaky settings to upload all your
>> neighbors' wifi BSSIDs to Google - only Google Maps does that.
>
> Because it is Google, it is a suite. It is intended that way. Enter the
> account just once, all the tools will work and use it, transparently.
> Design method. Like it or not, use it or not.
>
> As I said, I expected that. Not surprised at all.

I don't think you realize, based on what you said, that your expectations
are wrong. It's not all the Google apps in the Google suite that do this.

I don't think you realize that.
No big deal. Probably most people are ignorant of what Google apps do.

I happen to know because I don't have a Google Account on the phone so when
certain Google apps create it (and certain ones do not), I notice it.

Your ignorance Carlos, can be cured.
It's sheer stupidity (like that of Joerg or Alan) that can't be cured.

>>> If I cared about privacy that much, I would simply never use Android.
>>
>> Realistically you have a choice of iOS (which isn't even close to private),
>> or Android, where at least with Android you can make it private if you're
>> intelligent about it.
>
> Nay, I would buy a Linux tablet to do clock duty. Or buy an arduino or
> similar, attach a display, and do it. This is faster.

If all you want is a clock, that's one thing.

But if you want a functional tablet, I'd suggest you might be able to do
that with the Aurora Store because it will let you spoof the SDK version.

Using the Aurora Store judiciously, I suspect you can find the basic tools
for that tablet to make it useable (web browser, youtube client, google play
client, MUA, etc.).

BTW, it appears the FOSS Google Play clients do update _all_ apps, not just
"google apps", but all apps that are found on the Google repo.
<https://i.postimg.cc/ZR25xq5Q/aurora03.jpg>

Notice the switch FOSS Google Play client has switches to "Enable auto
updates" which will "Update apps whenever a new version is available" and
the switch "Extended updatres" which will "Enable to check updates for
disabled apps" and "Check updates which will "Check for latest available
updates of Aurora Store" and "Update interval" which, for mine, is set to
"Manual", etc.

For the permanent record, this is an update to a thread philo asked today:
*Google Translate update (how to prevent Google Play from updating it)*
<https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android/c/-8QwbUsgjOA>

Hi philo,

I'm happy you asked the question, as Usenet is a team sport where each of us
learns from each other, even as we play a different position on each thread.

I thank you for confirming the solution, which is to turn off the automatic
updates inside of the Google Play app (which scrapes the Google repository).

See more answers to similar questions of how Google Play Store updates apps.
*How does Google Play know how to update all your installed apps*
<https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android/c/48Qs2nHV5Io/m/4MpGcX0ABQAJ>

There's yet _another_ way, which is a "special teams" method, that I use.
a. I don't have a Google Account on my phone
b. Therefore, "most" of Google Play won't work
c. But, interestingly, the _update_ mechanism of Google Play does work
d. Nonetheless, I have the Google Play app disabled anyway
e. Even better, I scrape Google's repo using the Aurora Google Play client
f. That provides _everything_ God intended to be in an app store client
*Aurora Open Source Software* <https://auroraoss.com/>

Not only does that FOSS google play store client _not delete_ the APK after
downloading and installing it, but it can save APKs directly to the sdcard.
*Are there any downsides to supplementing Google Play client with Aurora Store?*
<https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android/c/zGYFITEjemc/m/J4eFd12UBgAJ>

More to the point of updates, not only will that FOSS google play store
client give you the choice of updates, but it even has a choice whether or
not to update the _disabled_ apps on your phone.
<https://i.postimg.cc/CL9GpzVc/aurora01.jpg> FOSS Google Play Store client
<https://i.postimg.cc/Lspjhw5f/aurora02.jpg> Filters Google won't allow
<https://i.postimg.cc/PrvDyT8Y/aurora03.jpg> *Automatic & extended updates*
<https://i.postimg.cc/Z5kdD2rg/aurora04.jpg> Choose where to download APKs
<https://i.postimg.cc/RF06HBB3/aurora05.jpg> Filters Google won't give you
<https://i.postimg.cc/FRnfbBrT/aurora06.jpg> Google Play Store still works
<https://i.postimg.cc/0jMzV0rP/aurora07.jpg> Keep logs of when last updated
<https://i.postimg.cc/7PdGfdQ6/aurora08.jpg> Search filters are persistent
<https://i.postimg.cc/8zBjX5kJ/aurora09.jpg> Save all APKs you've intalled
<https://i.postimg.cc/NG5pHyBx/aurora10.jpg> No need for a Google Account
<https://i.postimg.cc/28WG0Pqb/aurora11.jpg> Works alongside Google Play
<https://i.postimg.cc/D0Qz7fZy/aurora12.jpg> Saves all APKs after install
<https://i.postimg.cc/pLhBm3vX/aurora13.jpg> All sorts of excellent filters
<https://i.postimg.cc/W1BwgSpm/aurora14.jpg> Search by ratings or downloads
<https://i.postimg.cc/G2QP0CFz/aurora15.jpg> Its a well-supported FOSS app

In summary, given Usenet is a team sport, we all help each other every day.
a. You asked a question (and you responded to all helpful responses)
b. You found the answer you needed (and you acknowledged the sender)
c. I'm simply providing _additional_ solutions (for special situations)
--
Why? Because I have a kind heart, and plenty of added value to provide.