https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/f-16-head-butted-wayward-cessna-three-times-during-presidential-air-defense-mission/ar-AA13cvub?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=cf8f13c3e96b432fd2f08e229d0b7e4e

Seems like even the Army Pilots aren't perfect either

Nick
T

On Thursday, October 20, 2022 at 7:34:16 PM UTC-4, nickkennedy...@gmail.com wrote:
> https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/f-16-head-butted-wayward-cessna-three-times-during-presidential-air-defense-mission/ar-AA13cvub?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=cf8f13c3e96b432fd2f08e229d0b7e4e
>
> Seems like even the Army Pilots aren't perfect either
>
> Nick
> T
This post is more important than people realize! Take yesterday as an example , I had intentions of flying a bit further west than I did and turn North until I was at the top of 2901 restricted area and thread the needle to get back home. The needle area is between the top of 2901 and class B Orlando, not much room for sightseeing, but after getting through that area you certainly have more room for comfort. Because of Big Brother and fast moving F-18's and 35"s the TFR has been largely expanded to cover areas well beyond the Restricted Area.
When I took off yesterday the TFR area was NOT active, yet the Restricted area was HOT. I deal with this often and plan my flights outside of the restricted area. After getting West of Okeechobee I was planning to go North to Avon Park and continue as planned making the loop around the top of 2901 and head back East. I happen to have my phone with Foreflight and at 2.13 in the afternoon a TFR was issued and was to begin at 2.30 which gave me 17 minutes to get turned around and back East. The GPS indicated that I was 2000 feet away from the TFR boundary. I departed the area and when clear made a northerly track and later back hope where I once again landed back home.
A note to all you Big Dogs out of Seminole, check the Avon Park and Winter Haven airspace before making a costly mistake. I know that you guys go up and down Hwy 27 following each other so take foreflight with you and check the TFR postings. Old Bob, The Purist

On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 7:37:10 AM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, October 20, 2022 at 7:34:16 PM UTC-4, nickkennedy...@gmail.com wrote:
> > https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/f-16-head-butted-wayward-cessna-three-times-during-presidential-air-defense-mission/ar-AA13cvub?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=cf8f13c3e96b432fd2f08e229d0b7e4e
> >
> > Seems like even the Army Pilots aren't perfect either
> >
> > Nick
> > T
> This post is more important than people realize! Take yesterday as an example , I had intentions of flying a bit further west than I did and turn North until I was at the top of 2901 restricted area and thread the needle to get back home. The needle area is between the top of 2901 and class B Orlando, not much room for sightseeing, but after getting through that area you certainly have more room for comfort. Because of Big Brother and fast moving F-18's and 35"s the TFR has been largely expanded to cover areas well beyond the Restricted Area.
> When I took off yesterday the TFR area was NOT active, yet the Restricted area was HOT. I deal with this often and plan my flights outside of the restricted area. After getting West of Okeechobee I was planning to go North to Avon Park and continue as planned making the loop around the top of 2901 and head back East. I happen to have my phone with Foreflight and at 2.13 in the afternoon a TFR was issued and was to begin at 2.30 which gave me 17 minutes to get turned around and back East. The GPS indicated that I was 2000 feet away from the TFR boundary. I departed the area and when clear made a northerly track and later back hope where I once again landed back home..
> A note to all you Big Dogs out of Seminole, check the Avon Park and Winter Haven airspace before making a costly mistake. I know that you guys go up and down Hwy 27 following each other so take foreflight with you and check the TFR postings. Old Bob, The Purist
Bob I don't think your forflight is giving you correct info on TFR's ? My stuff does not show any new TFR's in that area.
Can anybody else see them?
GB

On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 8:32:22 AM UTC-4, Glenn Betzoldt wrote:
> On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 7:37:10 AM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Thursday, October 20, 2022 at 7:34:16 PM UTC-4, nickkennedy...@gmail..com wrote:
> > > https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/f-16-head-butted-wayward-cessna-three-times-during-presidential-air-defense-mission/ar-AA13cvub?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=cf8f13c3e96b432fd2f08e229d0b7e4e
> > >
> > > Seems like even the Army Pilots aren't perfect either
> > >
> > > Nick
> > > T
> > This post is more important than people realize! Take yesterday as an example , I had intentions of flying a bit further west than I did and turn North until I was at the top of 2901 restricted area and thread the needle to get back home. The needle area is between the top of 2901 and class B Orlando, not much room for sightseeing, but after getting through that area you certainly have more room for comfort. Because of Big Brother and fast moving F-18's and 35"s the TFR has been largely expanded to cover areas well beyond the Restricted Area.
> > When I took off yesterday the TFR area was NOT active, yet the Restricted area was HOT. I deal with this often and plan my flights outside of the restricted area. After getting West of Okeechobee I was planning to go North to Avon Park and continue as planned making the loop around the top of 2901 and head back East. I happen to have my phone with Foreflight and at 2.13 in the afternoon a TFR was issued and was to begin at 2.30 which gave me 17 minutes to get turned around and back East. The GPS indicated that I was 2000 feet away from the TFR boundary. I departed the area and when clear made a northerly track and later back hope where I once again landed back home.
> > A note to all you Big Dogs out of Seminole, check the Avon Park and Winter Haven airspace before making a costly mistake. I know that you guys go up and down Hwy 27 following each other so take foreflight with you and check the TFR postings. Old Bob, The Purist
> Bob I don't think your forflight is giving you correct info on TFR's ? My stuff does not show any new TFR's in that area.
> Can anybody else see them?
> GB
I will send you a pic of yesterday! IT DID NOT SHOW U8NTIL AFTER 2 YESTERDAY

On 10/28/2022 5:32 AM, Glenn Betzoldt wrote:
> On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 7:37:10 AM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Thursday, October 20, 2022 at 7:34:16 PM UTC-4, nickkennedy...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/f-16-head-butted-wayward-cessna-three-times-during-presidential-air-defense-mission/ar-AA13cvub?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=cf8f13c3e96b432fd2f08e229d0b7e4e
>>>
>>> Seems like even the Army Pilots aren't perfect either
>>>
>>> Nick
>>> T
>> This post is more important than people realize! Take yesterday as an example , I had intentions of flying a bit further west than I did and turn North until I was at the top of 2901 restricted area and thread the needle to get back home. The needle area is between the top of 2901 and class B Orlando, not much room for sightseeing, but after getting through that area you certainly have more room for comfort. Because of Big Brother and fast moving F-18's and 35"s the TFR has been largely expanded to cover areas well beyond the Restricted Area.
>> When I took off yesterday the TFR area was NOT active, yet the Restricted area was HOT. I deal with this often and plan my flights outside of the restricted area. After getting West of Okeechobee I was planning to go North to Avon Park and continue as planned making the loop around the top of 2901 and head back East. I happen to have my phone with Foreflight and at 2.13 in the afternoon a TFR was issued and was to begin at 2.30 which gave me 17 minutes to get turned around and back East. The GPS indicated that I was 2000 feet away from the TFR boundary. I departed the area and when clear made a northerly track and later back hope where I once again landed back home.
>> A note to all you Big Dogs out of Seminole, check the Avon Park and Winter Haven airspace before making a costly mistake. I know that you guys go up and down Hwy 27 following each other so take foreflight with you and check the TFR postings. Old Bob, The Purist
> Bob I don't think your forflight is giving you correct info on TFR's ? My stuff does not show any new TFR's in that area.
> Can anybody else see them?
> GB
Neither Skyvector or the FAA SUA website (https://sua.faa.gov/sua/siteFrame.app) show a
TFR in that area at this moment. There is no way the FAA can expect pilots to be aware of
a TFR with only 17 minutes notice. Even in my Phoenix, with an EFIS that shows TFRs using
ASDB info, I'd be likely to miss it. I think only an emergency could justify that, and
military aircraft would have to sweep the area to direct aircraft out of the area, and
then patrol the boundary to prevent aircraft from entering.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 9:08:20 AM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 8:32:22 AM UTC-4, Glenn Betzoldt wrote:
> > On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 7:37:10 AM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Thursday, October 20, 2022 at 7:34:16 PM UTC-4, nickkennedy...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/f-16-head-butted-wayward-cessna-three-times-during-presidential-air-defense-mission/ar-AA13cvub?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=cf8f13c3e96b432fd2f08e229d0b7e4e
> > > >
> > > > Seems like even the Army Pilots aren't perfect either
> > > >
> > > > Nick
> > > > T
> > > This post is more important than people realize! Take yesterday as an example , I had intentions of flying a bit further west than I did and turn North until I was at the top of 2901 restricted area and thread the needle to get back home. The needle area is between the top of 2901 and class B Orlando, not much room for sightseeing, but after getting through that area you certainly have more room for comfort. Because of Big Brother and fast moving F-18's and 35"s the TFR has been largely expanded to cover areas well beyond the Restricted Area.
> > > When I took off yesterday the TFR area was NOT active, yet the Restricted area was HOT. I deal with this often and plan my flights outside of the restricted area. After getting West of Okeechobee I was planning to go North to Avon Park and continue as planned making the loop around the top of 2901 and head back East. I happen to have my phone with Foreflight and at 2..13 in the afternoon a TFR was issued and was to begin at 2.30 which gave me 17 minutes to get turned around and back East. The GPS indicated that I was 2000 feet away from the TFR boundary. I departed the area and when clear made a northerly track and later back hope where I once again landed back home.
> > > A note to all you Big Dogs out of Seminole, check the Avon Park and Winter Haven airspace before making a costly mistake. I know that you guys go up and down Hwy 27 following each other so take foreflight with you and check the TFR postings. Old Bob, The Purist
> > Bob I don't think your forflight is giving you correct info on TFR's ? My stuff does not show any new TFR's in that area.
> > Can anybody else see them?
> > GB
> I will send you a pic of yesterday! IT DID NOT SHOW U8NTIL AFTER 2 YESTERDAY
OBTP,
Are you refering to a TFR or and active MOA?

On 10/28/2022 6:08 AM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 8:32:22 AM UTC-4, Glenn Betzoldt wrote:
>> On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 7:37:10 AM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
....
>>> A note to all you Big Dogs out of Seminole, check the Avon Park and Winter Haven airspace before making a costly mistake. I know that you guys go up and down Hwy 27 following each other so take foreflight with you and check the TFR postings. Old Bob, The Purist
>> Bob I don't think your forflight is giving you correct info on TFR's ? My stuff does not show any new TFR's in that area.
>> Can anybody else see them?
>> GB
> I will send you a pic of yesterday! IT DID NOT SHOW U8NTIL AFTER 2 YESTERDAY

I don't know if this the same issue, but I have seen a few bogus TFRs on my Dynon Skyview
EFIS. In those cases (at least three times), the FAA said they did not issue the TFRs that
showed on my screen, and Dynon said Skyview gets TFR data from the same ADSB data that has
the weather information. The bogus TFRs were not there at the beginning of the flights.

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 9:28:35 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> On 10/28/2022 6:08 AM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 8:32:22 AM UTC-4, Glenn Betzoldt wrote:
> >> On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 7:37:10 AM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> ...
> >>> A note to all you Big Dogs out of Seminole, check the Avon Park and Winter Haven airspace before making a costly mistake. I know that you guys go up and down Hwy 27 following each other so take foreflight with you and check the TFR postings. Old Bob, The Purist
> >> Bob I don't think your forflight is giving you correct info on TFR's ? My stuff does not show any new TFR's in that area.
> >> Can anybody else see them?
> >> GB
> > I will send you a pic of yesterday! IT DID NOT SHOW U8NTIL AFTER 2 YESTERDAY
> I don't know if this the same issue, but I have seen a few bogus TFRs on my Dynon Skyview
> EFIS. In those cases (at least three times), the FAA said they did not issue the TFRs that
> showed on my screen, and Dynon said Skyview gets TFR data from the same ADSB data that has
> the weather information. The bogus TFRs were not there at the beginning of the flights.
> --
> Eric Greenwell - USA
> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
Ok Bob I found it. It's not a TFR it's a MOA. that makes all the differance..

On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 10:03:18 AM UTC-4, Glenn Betzoldt wrote:
> On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 9:28:35 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > On 10/28/2022 6:08 AM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 8:32:22 AM UTC-4, Glenn Betzoldt wrote:
> > >> On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 7:37:10 AM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > ...
> > >>> A note to all you Big Dogs out of Seminole, check the Avon Park and Winter Haven airspace before making a costly mistake. I know that you guys go up and down Hwy 27 following each other so take foreflight with you and check the TFR postings. Old Bob, The Purist
> > >> Bob I don't think your forflight is giving you correct info on TFR's ? My stuff does not show any new TFR's in that area.
> > >> Can anybody else see them?
> > >> GB
> > > I will send you a pic of yesterday! IT DID NOT SHOW U8NTIL AFTER 2 YESTERDAY
> > I don't know if this the same issue, but I have seen a few bogus TFRs on my Dynon Skyview
> > EFIS. In those cases (at least three times), the FAA said they did not issue the TFRs that
> > showed on my screen, and Dynon said Skyview gets TFR data from the same ADSB data that has
> > the weather information. The bogus TFRs were not there at the beginning of the flights.
> > --
> > Eric Greenwell - USA
> > - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> > https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
> Ok Bob I found it. It's not a TFR it's a MOA. that makes all the differance.
The FAA has finalized plans to amend special-use airspace over the Avon Park Air Force Range in central Florida.

The final rule subdivides the Lake Placid MOA into three separate areas, adds one sector above the existing Avon East MOA, and converts two MOAs to restricted areas. The changes represent a mixed bag for general aviation: On one hand, dividing the MOA into three will allow the military to activate only those sectors needed for a mission, leaving the other sectors open for use by the public; and there are no changes to the overall lateral dimensions of the complex. On the other hand, the new restricted areas and addition of an MOA will further limit GA operations in the area.

“AOPA has worked to educate the Air Force about the need for general aviation access to the Avon Park area,” said AOPA Manager of Air Traffic Services Tom Kramer. “With the subdivision of the Lake Placid MOA, GA pilots will have greater access through this busy airspace.”

The Lake Placid MOA will now be three MOAs: Lake Placid North, East, and West. Additional times of use will now include “other times by notam.” Avon East High MOA will be added from 14,000 feet msl up to but not including 18,000 feet msl above Avon East MOA. The Avon North and South MOAs will become Restricted Areas R-2901 M and N, respectively. Effective times of the Basinger and Marian MOAs will now include “other times by notam.” These changes take effect July 29 at 0901 Zulu.

On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 10:05:17 AM UTC-4, Glenn Betzoldt wrote:
> On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 10:03:18 AM UTC-4, Glenn Betzoldt wrote:
> > On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 9:28:35 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > > On 10/28/2022 6:08 AM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 8:32:22 AM UTC-4, Glenn Betzoldt wrote:
> > > >> On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 7:37:10 AM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > ...
> > > >>> A note to all you Big Dogs out of Seminole, check the Avon Park and Winter Haven airspace before making a costly mistake. I know that you guys go up and down Hwy 27 following each other so take foreflight with you and check the TFR postings. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > >> Bob I don't think your forflight is giving you correct info on TFR's ? My stuff does not show any new TFR's in that area.
> > > >> Can anybody else see them?
> > > >> GB
> > > > I will send you a pic of yesterday! IT DID NOT SHOW U8NTIL AFTER 2 YESTERDAY
> > > I don't know if this the same issue, but I have seen a few bogus TFRs on my Dynon Skyview
> > > EFIS. In those cases (at least three times), the FAA said they did not issue the TFRs that
> > > showed on my screen, and Dynon said Skyview gets TFR data from the same ADSB data that has
> > > the weather information. The bogus TFRs were not there at the beginning of the flights.
> > > --
> > > Eric Greenwell - USA
> > > - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> > > https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
> > Ok Bob I found it. It's not a TFR it's a MOA. that makes all the differance.
> The FAA has finalized plans to amend special-use airspace over the Avon Park Air Force Range in central Florida.
>
> The final rule subdivides the Lake Placid MOA into three separate areas, adds one sector above the existing Avon East MOA, and converts two MOAs to restricted areas. The changes represent a mixed bag for general aviation: On one hand, dividing the MOA into three will allow the military to activate only those sectors needed for a mission, leaving the other sectors open for use by the public; and there are no changes to the overall lateral dimensions of the complex. On the other hand, the new restricted areas and addition of an MOA will further limit GA operations in the area.
>
> “AOPA has worked to educate the Air Force about the need for general aviation access to the Avon Park area,” said AOPA Manager of Air Traffic Services Tom Kramer. “With the subdivision of the Lake Placid MOA, GA pilots will have greater access through this busy airspace.”
>
> The Lake Placid MOA will now be three MOAs: Lake Placid North, East, and West. Additional times of use will now include “other times by notam.” Avon East High MOA will be added from 14,000 feet msl up to but not including 18,000 feet msl above Avon East MOA. The Avon North and South MOAs will become Restricted Areas R-2901 M and N, respectively. Effective times of the Basinger and Marian MOAs will now include “other times by notam.” These changes take effect July 29 at 0901 Zulu.
OOPS this is a AOPA article from May 27, 2010

On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 10:59:08 AM UTC-4, Glenn Betzoldt wrote:
> On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 10:05:17 AM UTC-4, Glenn Betzoldt wrote:
> > On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 10:03:18 AM UTC-4, Glenn Betzoldt wrote:
> > > On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 9:28:35 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > > > On 10/28/2022 6:08 AM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 8:32:22 AM UTC-4, Glenn Betzoldt wrote:
> > > > >> On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 7:37:10 AM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > ...
> > > > >>> A note to all you Big Dogs out of Seminole, check the Avon Park and Winter Haven airspace before making a costly mistake. I know that you guys go up and down Hwy 27 following each other so take foreflight with you and check the TFR postings. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > > >> Bob I don't think your forflight is giving you correct info on TFR's ? My stuff does not show any new TFR's in that area.
> > > > >> Can anybody else see them?
> > > > >> GB
> > > > > I will send you a pic of yesterday! IT DID NOT SHOW U8NTIL AFTER 2 YESTERDAY
> > > > I don't know if this the same issue, but I have seen a few bogus TFRs on my Dynon Skyview
> > > > EFIS. In those cases (at least three times), the FAA said they did not issue the TFRs that
> > > > showed on my screen, and Dynon said Skyview gets TFR data from the same ADSB data that has
> > > > the weather information. The bogus TFRs were not there at the beginning of the flights.
> > > > --
> > > > Eric Greenwell - USA
> > > > - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> > > > https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
> > > Ok Bob I found it. It's not a TFR it's a MOA. that makes all the differance.
> > The FAA has finalized plans to amend special-use airspace over the Avon Park Air Force Range in central Florida.
> >
> > The final rule subdivides the Lake Placid MOA into three separate areas, adds one sector above the existing Avon East MOA, and converts two MOAs to restricted areas. The changes represent a mixed bag for general aviation: On one hand, dividing the MOA into three will allow the military to activate only those sectors needed for a mission, leaving the other sectors open for use by the public; and there are no changes to the overall lateral dimensions of the complex. On the other hand, the new restricted areas and addition of an MOA will further limit GA operations in the area.
> >
> > “AOPA has worked to educate the Air Force about the need for general aviation access to the Avon Park area,” said AOPA Manager of Air Traffic Services Tom Kramer. “With the subdivision of the Lake Placid MOA, GA pilots will have greater access through this busy airspace.”
> >
> > The Lake Placid MOA will now be three MOAs: Lake Placid North, East, and West. Additional times of use will now include “other times by notam.” Avon East High MOA will be added from 14,000 feet msl up to but not including 18,000 feet msl above Avon East MOA. The Avon North and South MOAs will become Restricted Areas R-2901 M and N, respectively. Effective times of the Basinger and Marian MOAs will now include “other times by notam.” These changes take effect July 29 at 0901 Zulu.
> OOPS this is a AOPA article from May 27, 2010
Well, that hasn't happened, the problem is that Foreflight treats NOTAM's the same as TFR"s and if you are flying along and paying attention in a suspect airspace the Foreflight screen will depict the MOA area as a TFR and there is no color designation between the TFR and the MOA. Also the MOA restricted area is extended outward of the restricted area as defined on the map. This is absolutely nuts! OBTP

On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 8:47:25 PM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 10:59:08 AM UTC-4, Glenn Betzoldt wrote:
> > On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 10:05:17 AM UTC-4, Glenn Betzoldt wrote:
> > > On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 10:03:18 AM UTC-4, Glenn Betzoldt wrote:
> > > > On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 9:28:35 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > > > > On 10/28/2022 6:08 AM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 8:32:22 AM UTC-4, Glenn Betzoldt wrote:
> > > > > >> On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 7:37:10 AM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > ...
> > > > > >>> A note to all you Big Dogs out of Seminole, check the Avon Park and Winter Haven airspace before making a costly mistake. I know that you guys go up and down Hwy 27 following each other so take foreflight with you and check the TFR postings. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > > > >> Bob I don't think your forflight is giving you correct info on TFR's ? My stuff does not show any new TFR's in that area.
> > > > > >> Can anybody else see them?
> > > > > >> GB
> > > > > > I will send you a pic of yesterday! IT DID NOT SHOW U8NTIL AFTER 2 YESTERDAY
> > > > > I don't know if this the same issue, but I have seen a few bogus TFRs on my Dynon Skyview
> > > > > EFIS. In those cases (at least three times), the FAA said they did not issue the TFRs that
> > > > > showed on my screen, and Dynon said Skyview gets TFR data from the same ADSB data that has
> > > > > the weather information. The bogus TFRs were not there at the beginning of the flights.
> > > > > --
> > > > > Eric Greenwell - USA
> > > > > - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> > > > > https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
> > > > Ok Bob I found it. It's not a TFR it's a MOA. that makes all the differance.
> > > The FAA has finalized plans to amend special-use airspace over the Avon Park Air Force Range in central Florida.
> > >
> > > The final rule subdivides the Lake Placid MOA into three separate areas, adds one sector above the existing Avon East MOA, and converts two MOAs to restricted areas. The changes represent a mixed bag for general aviation: On one hand, dividing the MOA into three will allow the military to activate only those sectors needed for a mission, leaving the other sectors open for use by the public; and there are no changes to the overall lateral dimensions of the complex. On the other hand, the new restricted areas and addition of an MOA will further limit GA operations in the area.
> > >
> > > “AOPA has worked to educate the Air Force about the need for general aviation access to the Avon Park area,” said AOPA Manager of Air Traffic Services Tom Kramer. “With the subdivision of the Lake Placid MOA, GA pilots will have greater access through this busy airspace..”
> > >
> > > The Lake Placid MOA will now be three MOAs: Lake Placid North, East, and West. Additional times of use will now include “other times by notam.” Avon East High MOA will be added from 14,000 feet msl up to but not including 18,000 feet msl above Avon East MOA. The Avon North and South MOAs will become Restricted Areas R-2901 M and N, respectively. Effective times of the Basinger and Marian MOAs will now include “other times by notam.” These changes take effect July 29 at 0901 Zulu.
> > OOPS this is a AOPA article from May 27, 2010
> Well, that hasn't happened, the problem is that Foreflight treats NOTAM's the same as TFR"s and if you are flying along and paying attention in a suspect airspace the Foreflight screen will depict the MOA area as a TFR and there is no color designation between the TFR and the MOA. Also the MOA restricted area is extended outward of the restricted area as defined on the map. This is absolutely nuts! OBTP
OBTP, it is very impure to be fondling such gadgetry in flight. Never catch me with it! Take that F-106 buzz the old-fashioned way!

On Saturday, October 29, 2022 at 5:02:51 AM UTC-4, sgs...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 8:47:25 PM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 10:59:08 AM UTC-4, Glenn Betzoldt wrote:
> > > On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 10:05:17 AM UTC-4, Glenn Betzoldt wrote:
> > > > On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 10:03:18 AM UTC-4, Glenn Betzoldt wrote:
> > > > > On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 9:28:35 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > > > > > On 10/28/2022 6:08 AM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 8:32:22 AM UTC-4, Glenn Betzoldt wrote:
> > > > > > >> On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 7:37:10 AM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > ...
> > > > > > >>> A note to all you Big Dogs out of Seminole, check the Avon Park and Winter Haven airspace before making a costly mistake. I know that you guys go up and down Hwy 27 following each other so take foreflight with you and check the TFR postings. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > > > > >> Bob I don't think your forflight is giving you correct info on TFR's ? My stuff does not show any new TFR's in that area.
> > > > > > >> Can anybody else see them?
> > > > > > >> GB
> > > > > > > I will send you a pic of yesterday! IT DID NOT SHOW U8NTIL AFTER 2 YESTERDAY
> > > > > > I don't know if this the same issue, but I have seen a few bogus TFRs on my Dynon Skyview
> > > > > > EFIS. In those cases (at least three times), the FAA said they did not issue the TFRs that
> > > > > > showed on my screen, and Dynon said Skyview gets TFR data from the same ADSB data that has
> > > > > > the weather information. The bogus TFRs were not there at the beginning of the flights.
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Eric Greenwell - USA
> > > > > > - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> > > > > > https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
> > > > > Ok Bob I found it. It's not a TFR it's a MOA. that makes all the differance.
> > > > The FAA has finalized plans to amend special-use airspace over the Avon Park Air Force Range in central Florida.
> > > >
> > > > The final rule subdivides the Lake Placid MOA into three separate areas, adds one sector above the existing Avon East MOA, and converts two MOAs to restricted areas. The changes represent a mixed bag for general aviation: On one hand, dividing the MOA into three will allow the military to activate only those sectors needed for a mission, leaving the other sectors open for use by the public; and there are no changes to the overall lateral dimensions of the complex. On the other hand, the new restricted areas and addition of an MOA will further limit GA operations in the area.
> > > >
> > > > “AOPA has worked to educate the Air Force about the need for general aviation access to the Avon Park area,” said AOPA Manager of Air Traffic Services Tom Kramer. “With the subdivision of the Lake Placid MOA, GA pilots will have greater access through this busy airspace.”
> > > >
> > > > The Lake Placid MOA will now be three MOAs: Lake Placid North, East, and West. Additional times of use will now include “other times by notam.” Avon East High MOA will be added from 14,000 feet msl up to but not including 18,000 feet msl above Avon East MOA. The Avon North and South MOAs will become Restricted Areas R-2901 M and N, respectively. Effective times of the Basinger and Marian MOAs will now include “other times by notam.” These changes take effect July 29 at 0901 Zulu.
> > > OOPS this is a AOPA article from May 27, 2010
> > Well, that hasn't happened, the problem is that Foreflight treats NOTAM's the same as TFR"s and if you are flying along and paying attention in a suspect airspace the Foreflight screen will depict the MOA area as a TFR and there is no color designation between the TFR and the MOA. Also the MOA restricted area is extended outward of the restricted area as defined on the map. This is absolutely nuts! OBTP
> OBTP, it is very impure to be fondling such gadgetry in flight. Never catch me with it! Take that F-106 buzz the old-fashioned way!
Well, back in the day it was the boys from Homestead that would buzz us in their F-4"s could see that black smoke coming from miles away and talk to them on the radio as they chuckled. Myself along with Bennie and Alfonso did a bit of testing for their radar systems to determine if they could identify us. Most of the time they just gave up and we had to tell them where we were. Yep, gadgetry has really dumb down this sport. Old Bob, The Purist

On Saturday, October 29, 2022 at 7:35:12 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, October 29, 2022 at 5:02:51 AM UTC-4, sgs...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 8:47:25 PM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 10:59:08 AM UTC-4, Glenn Betzoldt wrote:
> > > > On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 10:05:17 AM UTC-4, Glenn Betzoldt wrote:
> > > > > On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 10:03:18 AM UTC-4, Glenn Betzoldt wrote:
> > > > > > On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 9:28:35 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > > > > > > On 10/28/2022 6:08 AM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 8:32:22 AM UTC-4, Glenn Betzoldt wrote:
> > > > > > > >> On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 7:37:10 AM UTC-4, youngbl....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > ...
> > > > > > > >>> A note to all you Big Dogs out of Seminole, check the Avon Park and Winter Haven airspace before making a costly mistake. I know that you guys go up and down Hwy 27 following each other so take foreflight with you and check the TFR postings. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > > > > > >> Bob I don't think your forflight is giving you correct info on TFR's ? My stuff does not show any new TFR's in that area.
> > > > > > > >> Can anybody else see them?
> > > > > > > >> GB
> > > > > > > > I will send you a pic of yesterday! IT DID NOT SHOW U8NTIL AFTER 2 YESTERDAY
> > > > > > > I don't know if this the same issue, but I have seen a few bogus TFRs on my Dynon Skyview
> > > > > > > EFIS. In those cases (at least three times), the FAA said they did not issue the TFRs that
> > > > > > > showed on my screen, and Dynon said Skyview gets TFR data from the same ADSB data that has
> > > > > > > the weather information. The bogus TFRs were not there at the beginning of the flights.
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > Eric Greenwell - USA
> > > > > > > - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> > > > > > > https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
> > > > > > Ok Bob I found it. It's not a TFR it's a MOA. that makes all the differance.
> > > > > The FAA has finalized plans to amend special-use airspace over the Avon Park Air Force Range in central Florida.
> > > > >
> > > > > The final rule subdivides the Lake Placid MOA into three separate areas, adds one sector above the existing Avon East MOA, and converts two MOAs to restricted areas. The changes represent a mixed bag for general aviation: On one hand, dividing the MOA into three will allow the military to activate only those sectors needed for a mission, leaving the other sectors open for use by the public; and there are no changes to the overall lateral dimensions of the complex. On the other hand, the new restricted areas and addition of an MOA will further limit GA operations in the area.
> > > > >
> > > > > “AOPA has worked to educate the Air Force about the need for general aviation access to the Avon Park area,” said AOPA Manager of Air Traffic Services Tom Kramer. “With the subdivision of the Lake Placid MOA, GA pilots will have greater access through this busy airspace.”
> > > > >
> > > > > The Lake Placid MOA will now be three MOAs: Lake Placid North, East, and West. Additional times of use will now include “other times by notam.” Avon East High MOA will be added from 14,000 feet msl up to but not including 18,000 feet msl above Avon East MOA. The Avon North and South MOAs will become Restricted Areas R-2901 M and N, respectively. Effective times of the Basinger and Marian MOAs will now include “other times by notam.” These changes take effect July 29 at 0901 Zulu..
> > > > OOPS this is a AOPA article from May 27, 2010
> > > Well, that hasn't happened, the problem is that Foreflight treats NOTAM's the same as TFR"s and if you are flying along and paying attention in a suspect airspace the Foreflight screen will depict the MOA area as a TFR and there is no color designation between the TFR and the MOA. Also the MOA restricted area is extended outward of the restricted area as defined on the map. This is absolutely nuts! OBTP
> > OBTP, it is very impure to be fondling such gadgetry in flight. Never catch me with it! Take that F-106 buzz the old-fashioned way!
> Well, back in the day it was the boys from Homestead that would buzz us in their F-4"s could see that black smoke coming from miles away and talk to them on the radio as they chuckled. Myself along with Bennie and Alfonso did a bit of testing for their radar systems to determine if they could identify us. Most of the time they just gave up and we had to tell them where we were. Yep, gadgetry has really dumb down this sport. Old Bob, The Purist

It’s been close to 50 years now when I came very close to colliding with a B-52! I was flying my little home built Duster out of Minden, Nevada. I was right over Mono Lake at 16,000 feet when I spotted a big ship to my left. He looked to be on a collision course, but was a good 1000 feet below me. He kept getting bigger and bigger as I suddenly realized he was CLIMBING! Too late to maneuver and I wasn’t going to show him my belly and not see my demise! He passed right under me so close that I could see the copilot reading his checklist! I waited for the turbulence, but not even a bump! If he had passed over me, the vortex and jet thrust would have turned that little wooden ship into kindling! They never saw me!
Later, I remembered that the little island in Mono Lake is the exit point for a low level Oil Burner route at exactly 16,000 feet………….I know this because I had flown that same route several times during my Air Force days!
Who else has had a close encounter with heavy metal?
JJ

Unless the rules have changed, an MOA is not restricted airspace. It's
a military operating area and you and I have as much right to fly there
as the military.

Having said that, I've been asked by ATC if I would mind deviating
around a "hot" MOA and I have never declined that request. I also
inquire as to the status of an MOA that I plan to enter or cross.

Dan
5J

On 10/28/22 18:47, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 10:59:08 AM UTC-4, Glenn Betzoldt wrote:
>> On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 10:05:17 AM UTC-4, Glenn Betzoldt wrote:
>>> On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 10:03:18 AM UTC-4, Glenn Betzoldt wrote:
>>>> On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 9:28:35 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>>>>> On 10/28/2022 6:08 AM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 8:32:22 AM UTC-4, Glenn Betzoldt wrote:
>>>>>>> On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 7:37:10 AM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>> A note to all you Big Dogs out of Seminole, check the Avon Park and Winter Haven airspace before making a costly mistake. I know that you guys go up and down Hwy 27 following each other so take foreflight with you and check the TFR postings. Old Bob, The Purist
>>>>>>> Bob I don't think your forflight is giving you correct info on TFR's ? My stuff does not show any new TFR's in that area.
>>>>>>> Can anybody else see them?
>>>>>>> GB
>>>>>> I will send you a pic of yesterday! IT DID NOT SHOW U8NTIL AFTER 2 YESTERDAY
>>>>> I don't know if this the same issue, but I have seen a few bogus TFRs on my Dynon Skyview
>>>>> EFIS. In those cases (at least three times), the FAA said they did not issue the TFRs that
>>>>> showed on my screen, and Dynon said Skyview gets TFR data from the same ADSB data that has
>>>>> the weather information. The bogus TFRs were not there at the beginning of the flights.
>>>>> --
>>>>> Eric Greenwell - USA
>>>>> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
>>>>> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
>>>> Ok Bob I found it. It's not a TFR it's a MOA. that makes all the differance.
>>> The FAA has finalized plans to amend special-use airspace over the Avon Park Air Force Range in central Florida.
>>>
>>> The final rule subdivides the Lake Placid MOA into three separate areas, adds one sector above the existing Avon East MOA, and converts two MOAs to restricted areas. The changes represent a mixed bag for general aviation: On one hand, dividing the MOA into three will allow the military to activate only those sectors needed for a mission, leaving the other sectors open for use by the public; and there are no changes to the overall lateral dimensions of the complex. On the other hand, the new restricted areas and addition of an MOA will further limit GA operations in the area.
>>>
>>> “AOPA has worked to educate the Air Force about the need for general aviation access to the Avon Park area,” said AOPA Manager of Air Traffic Services Tom Kramer. “With the subdivision of the Lake Placid MOA, GA pilots will have greater access through this busy airspace.”
>>>
>>> The Lake Placid MOA will now be three MOAs: Lake Placid North, East, and West. Additional times of use will now include “other times by notam.” Avon East High MOA will be added from 14,000 feet msl up to but not including 18,000 feet msl above Avon East MOA. The Avon North and South MOAs will become Restricted Areas R-2901 M and N, respectively. Effective times of the Basinger and Marian MOAs will now include “other times by notam.” These changes take effect July 29 at 0901 Zulu.
>> OOPS this is a AOPA article from May 27, 2010
> Well, that hasn't happened, the problem is that Foreflight treats NOTAM's the same as TFR"s and if you are flying along and paying attention in a suspect airspace the Foreflight screen will depict the MOA area as a TFR and there is no color designation between the TFR and the MOA. Also the MOA restricted area is extended outward of the restricted area as defined on the map. This is absolutely nuts! OBTP

I in my LS-6a climbing above Black Forest and a 757 or 767 coming out of
Colorado Springs enroute to Denver. I saw a small "dot" to the south
and, when I completed the circle, he was maneuvering to avoid me. I saw
his belly pretty close but not close enough to hear him, I believe the
altitude was around 12000' MSL.

Dan
5J

On 10/29/22 09:18, John Sinclair wrote:
> Who else has had a close encounter with heavy metal?
> JJ

JJ

I flew that route many times B52G in the mid 70s it was called OB-10 Hawthorne. We went low level 800 AGL and hit 4 simulated targets at Hawthorne and exited around Mono Lake at 16000 MSL. I am sure that is when wokeness started as the Oil Burner name was changed to Olive Branch.

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

On Saturday, October 29, 2022 at 12:01:31 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Unless the rules have changed, an MOA is not restricted airspace. It's
> a military operating area and you and I have as much right to fly there
> as the military.
>
> Having said that, I've been asked by ATC if I would mind deviating
> around a "hot" MOA and I have never declined that request. I also
> inquire as to the status of an MOA that I plan to enter or cross.
>
> Dan
> 5J
> On 10/28/22 18:47, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 10:59:08 AM UTC-4, Glenn Betzoldt wrote:
> >> On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 10:05:17 AM UTC-4, Glenn Betzoldt wrote:
> >>> On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 10:03:18 AM UTC-4, Glenn Betzoldt wrote:
> >>>> On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 9:28:35 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> >>>>> On 10/28/2022 6:08 AM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>>> On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 8:32:22 AM UTC-4, Glenn Betzoldt wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 7:37:10 AM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail..com wrote:
> >>>>> ...
> >>>>>>>> A note to all you Big Dogs out of Seminole, check the Avon Park and Winter Haven airspace before making a costly mistake. I know that you guys go up and down Hwy 27 following each other so take foreflight with you and check the TFR postings. Old Bob, The Purist
> >>>>>>> Bob I don't think your forflight is giving you correct info on TFR's ? My stuff does not show any new TFR's in that area.
> >>>>>>> Can anybody else see them?
> >>>>>>> GB
> >>>>>> I will send you a pic of yesterday! IT DID NOT SHOW U8NTIL AFTER 2 YESTERDAY
> >>>>> I don't know if this the same issue, but I have seen a few bogus TFRs on my Dynon Skyview
> >>>>> EFIS. In those cases (at least three times), the FAA said they did not issue the TFRs that
> >>>>> showed on my screen, and Dynon said Skyview gets TFR data from the same ADSB data that has
> >>>>> the weather information. The bogus TFRs were not there at the beginning of the flights.
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Eric Greenwell - USA
> >>>>> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> >>>>> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
> >>>> Ok Bob I found it. It's not a TFR it's a MOA. that makes all the differance.
> >>> The FAA has finalized plans to amend special-use airspace over the Avon Park Air Force Range in central Florida.
> >>>
> >>> The final rule subdivides the Lake Placid MOA into three separate areas, adds one sector above the existing Avon East MOA, and converts two MOAs to restricted areas. The changes represent a mixed bag for general aviation: On one hand, dividing the MOA into three will allow the military to activate only those sectors needed for a mission, leaving the other sectors open for use by the public; and there are no changes to the overall lateral dimensions of the complex. On the other hand, the new restricted areas and addition of an MOA will further limit GA operations in the area.
> >>>
> >>> “AOPA has worked to educate the Air Force about the need for general aviation access to the Avon Park area,” said AOPA Manager of Air Traffic Services Tom Kramer. “With the subdivision of the Lake Placid MOA, GA pilots will have greater access through this busy airspace..”
> >>>
> >>> The Lake Placid MOA will now be three MOAs: Lake Placid North, East, and West. Additional times of use will now include “other times by notam.” Avon East High MOA will be added from 14,000 feet msl up to but not including 18,000 feet msl above Avon East MOA. The Avon North and South MOAs will become Restricted Areas R-2901 M and N, respectively. Effective times of the Basinger and Marian MOAs will now include “other times by notam.” These changes take effect July 29 at 0901 Zulu.
> >> OOPS this is a AOPA article from May 27, 2010
> > Well, that hasn't happened, the problem is that Foreflight treats NOTAM's the same as TFR"s and if you are flying along and paying attention in a suspect airspace the Foreflight screen will depict the MOA area as a TFR and there is no color designation between the TFR and the MOA. Also the MOA restricted area is extended outward of the restricted area as defined on the map. This is absolutely nuts! OBTP
Ya, Dan - if you're IFR you are just seperated from an active MOA without discussion. If VFR in contact with ATC, they pretty much have to disown you if you're not planning to avoid it.

Me and my buddy were canoeing the east shore of Lk. Superior some decades ago when we heard a rumbling similar to distant thunder. No CBs in sight and I knew there was a local military training route.

We were treated to the sight of a couple Buffs looking to inhale low level sea gulls.

On Saturday, October 29, 2022 at 9:17:22 PM UTC-4, sgs...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, October 29, 2022 at 12:01:31 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > Unless the rules have changed, an MOA is not restricted airspace. It's
> > a military operating area and you and I have as much right to fly there
> > as the military.
> >
> > Having said that, I've been asked by ATC if I would mind deviating
> > around a "hot" MOA and I have never declined that request. I also
> > inquire as to the status of an MOA that I plan to enter or cross.
> >
> > Dan
> > 5J
> > On 10/28/22 18:47, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 10:59:08 AM UTC-4, Glenn Betzoldt wrote:
> > >> On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 10:05:17 AM UTC-4, Glenn Betzoldt wrote:
> > >>> On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 10:03:18 AM UTC-4, Glenn Betzoldt wrote:
> > >>>> On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 9:28:35 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > >>>>> On 10/28/2022 6:08 AM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >>>>>> On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 8:32:22 AM UTC-4, Glenn Betzoldt wrote:
> > >>>>>>> On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 7:37:10 AM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >>>>> ...
> > >>>>>>>> A note to all you Big Dogs out of Seminole, check the Avon Park and Winter Haven airspace before making a costly mistake. I know that you guys go up and down Hwy 27 following each other so take foreflight with you and check the TFR postings. Old Bob, The Purist
> > >>>>>>> Bob I don't think your forflight is giving you correct info on TFR's ? My stuff does not show any new TFR's in that area.
> > >>>>>>> Can anybody else see them?
> > >>>>>>> GB
> > >>>>>> I will send you a pic of yesterday! IT DID NOT SHOW U8NTIL AFTER 2 YESTERDAY
> > >>>>> I don't know if this the same issue, but I have seen a few bogus TFRs on my Dynon Skyview
> > >>>>> EFIS. In those cases (at least three times), the FAA said they did not issue the TFRs that
> > >>>>> showed on my screen, and Dynon said Skyview gets TFR data from the same ADSB data that has
> > >>>>> the weather information. The bogus TFRs were not there at the beginning of the flights.
> > >>>>> --
> > >>>>> Eric Greenwell - USA
> > >>>>> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> > >>>>> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
> > >>>> Ok Bob I found it. It's not a TFR it's a MOA. that makes all the differance.
> > >>> The FAA has finalized plans to amend special-use airspace over the Avon Park Air Force Range in central Florida.
> > >>>
> > >>> The final rule subdivides the Lake Placid MOA into three separate areas, adds one sector above the existing Avon East MOA, and converts two MOAs to restricted areas. The changes represent a mixed bag for general aviation: On one hand, dividing the MOA into three will allow the military to activate only those sectors needed for a mission, leaving the other sectors open for use by the public; and there are no changes to the overall lateral dimensions of the complex. On the other hand, the new restricted areas and addition of an MOA will further limit GA operations in the area.
> > >>>
> > >>> “AOPA has worked to educate the Air Force about the need for general aviation access to the Avon Park area,” said AOPA Manager of Air Traffic Services Tom Kramer. “With the subdivision of the Lake Placid MOA, GA pilots will have greater access through this busy airspace.”
> > >>>
> > >>> The Lake Placid MOA will now be three MOAs: Lake Placid North, East, and West. Additional times of use will now include “other times by notam.” Avon East High MOA will be added from 14,000 feet msl up to but not including 18,000 feet msl above Avon East MOA. The Avon North and South MOAs will become Restricted Areas R-2901 M and N, respectively. Effective times of the Basinger and Marian MOAs will now include “other times by notam.” These changes take effect July 29 at 0901 Zulu.
> > >> OOPS this is a AOPA article from May 27, 2010
> > > Well, that hasn't happened, the problem is that Foreflight treats NOTAM's the same as TFR"s and if you are flying along and paying attention in a suspect airspace the Foreflight screen will depict the MOA area as a TFR and there is no color designation between the TFR and the MOA. Also the MOA restricted area is extended outward of the restricted area as defined on the map. This is absolutely nuts! OBTP
> Ya, Dan - if you're IFR you are just seperated from an active MOA without discussion. If VFR in contact with ATC, they pretty much have to disown you if you're not planning to avoid it.
sgs, you know this better than anyone, but I was caught in a bad situation a couple years back and needed ATC help. I called Miami ctr and requested help getting through the hot restricted area. It took a minute or two and I was given a code to sq and a timeframe of 15 minutes to get through, in which I did. After landing I called the mission desk and was informed that that space while hot is not governed by atc Miami and they pretty much wash their hands of any IFR and VFR traffic within the restricted altitudes. OBTP

On Sunday, October 30, 2022 at 2:05:44 AM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, October 29, 2022 at 9:17:22 PM UTC-4, sgs...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, October 29, 2022 at 12:01:31 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > > Unless the rules have changed, an MOA is not restricted airspace. It's
> > > a military operating area and you and I have as much right to fly there
> > > as the military.
> > >
> > > Having said that, I've been asked by ATC if I would mind deviating
> > > around a "hot" MOA and I have never declined that request. I also
> > > inquire as to the status of an MOA that I plan to enter or cross.
> > >
> > > Dan
> > > 5J
> > > On 10/28/22 18:47, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 10:59:08 AM UTC-4, Glenn Betzoldt wrote:
> > > >> On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 10:05:17 AM UTC-4, Glenn Betzoldt wrote:
> > > >>> On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 10:03:18 AM UTC-4, Glenn Betzoldt wrote:
> > > >>>> On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 9:28:35 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > > >>>>> On 10/28/2022 6:08 AM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > >>>>>> On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 8:32:22 AM UTC-4, Glenn Betzoldt wrote:
> > > >>>>>>> On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 7:37:10 AM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > >>>>> ...
> > > >>>>>>>> A note to all you Big Dogs out of Seminole, check the Avon Park and Winter Haven airspace before making a costly mistake. I know that you guys go up and down Hwy 27 following each other so take foreflight with you and check the TFR postings. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > >>>>>>> Bob I don't think your forflight is giving you correct info on TFR's ? My stuff does not show any new TFR's in that area.
> > > >>>>>>> Can anybody else see them?
> > > >>>>>>> GB
> > > >>>>>> I will send you a pic of yesterday! IT DID NOT SHOW U8NTIL AFTER 2 YESTERDAY
> > > >>>>> I don't know if this the same issue, but I have seen a few bogus TFRs on my Dynon Skyview
> > > >>>>> EFIS. In those cases (at least three times), the FAA said they did not issue the TFRs that
> > > >>>>> showed on my screen, and Dynon said Skyview gets TFR data from the same ADSB data that has
> > > >>>>> the weather information. The bogus TFRs were not there at the beginning of the flights.
> > > >>>>> --
> > > >>>>> Eric Greenwell - USA
> > > >>>>> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> > > >>>>> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
> > > >>>> Ok Bob I found it. It's not a TFR it's a MOA. that makes all the differance.
> > > >>> The FAA has finalized plans to amend special-use airspace over the Avon Park Air Force Range in central Florida.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> The final rule subdivides the Lake Placid MOA into three separate areas, adds one sector above the existing Avon East MOA, and converts two MOAs to restricted areas. The changes represent a mixed bag for general aviation: On one hand, dividing the MOA into three will allow the military to activate only those sectors needed for a mission, leaving the other sectors open for use by the public; and there are no changes to the overall lateral dimensions of the complex. On the other hand, the new restricted areas and addition of an MOA will further limit GA operations in the area.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> “AOPA has worked to educate the Air Force about the need for general aviation access to the Avon Park area,” said AOPA Manager of Air Traffic Services Tom Kramer. “With the subdivision of the Lake Placid MOA, GA pilots will have greater access through this busy airspace.”
> > > >>>
> > > >>> The Lake Placid MOA will now be three MOAs: Lake Placid North, East, and West. Additional times of use will now include “other times by notam.” Avon East High MOA will be added from 14,000 feet msl up to but not including 18,000 feet msl above Avon East MOA. The Avon North and South MOAs will become Restricted Areas R-2901 M and N, respectively. Effective times of the Basinger and Marian MOAs will now include “other times by notam.” These changes take effect July 29 at 0901 Zulu..
> > > >> OOPS this is a AOPA article from May 27, 2010
> > > > Well, that hasn't happened, the problem is that Foreflight treats NOTAM's the same as TFR"s and if you are flying along and paying attention in a suspect airspace the Foreflight screen will depict the MOA area as a TFR and there is no color designation between the TFR and the MOA. Also the MOA restricted area is extended outward of the restricted area as defined on the map. This is absolutely nuts! OBTP
> > Ya, Dan - if you're IFR you are just seperated from an active MOA without discussion. If VFR in contact with ATC, they pretty much have to disown you if you're not planning to avoid it.
> sgs, you know this better than anyone, but I was caught in a bad situation a couple years back and needed ATC help. I called Miami ctr and requested help getting through the hot restricted area. It took a minute or two and I was given a code to sq and a timeframe of 15 minutes to get through, in which I did. After landing I called the mission desk and was informed that that space while hot is not governed by atc Miami and they pretty much wash their hands of any IFR and VFR traffic within the restricted altitudes. OBTP
Well that's absolutely not true of IFR traffic - they keep you out or arrange to let you in. If you're BFR they'll advisevyou to stay out, then wash their hands - unless you're in distress.

On Saturday, October 29, 2022 at 11:18:57 AM UTC-4, johnsin...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Saturday, October 29, 2022 at 7:35:12 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, October 29, 2022 at 5:02:51 AM UTC-4, sgs...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 8:47:25 PM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 10:59:08 AM UTC-4, Glenn Betzoldt wrote:
> > > > > On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 10:05:17 AM UTC-4, Glenn Betzoldt wrote:
> > > > > > On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 10:03:18 AM UTC-4, Glenn Betzoldt wrote:
> > > > > > > On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 9:28:35 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > > > > > > > On 10/28/2022 6:08 AM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 8:32:22 AM UTC-4, Glenn Betzoldt wrote:
> > > > > > > > >> On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 7:37:10 AM UTC-4, youngbl....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > ...
> > > > > > > > >>> A note to all you Big Dogs out of Seminole, check the Avon Park and Winter Haven airspace before making a costly mistake. I know that you guys go up and down Hwy 27 following each other so take foreflight with you and check the TFR postings. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > > > > > > >> Bob I don't think your forflight is giving you correct info on TFR's ? My stuff does not show any new TFR's in that area.
> > > > > > > > >> Can anybody else see them?
> > > > > > > > >> GB
> > > > > > > > > I will send you a pic of yesterday! IT DID NOT SHOW U8NTIL AFTER 2 YESTERDAY
> > > > > > > > I don't know if this the same issue, but I have seen a few bogus TFRs on my Dynon Skyview
> > > > > > > > EFIS. In those cases (at least three times), the FAA said they did not issue the TFRs that
> > > > > > > > showed on my screen, and Dynon said Skyview gets TFR data from the same ADSB data that has
> > > > > > > > the weather information. The bogus TFRs were not there at the beginning of the flights.
> > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > Eric Greenwell - USA
> > > > > > > > - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> > > > > > > > https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
> > > > > > > Ok Bob I found it. It's not a TFR it's a MOA. that makes all the differance.
> > > > > > The FAA has finalized plans to amend special-use airspace over the Avon Park Air Force Range in central Florida.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The final rule subdivides the Lake Placid MOA into three separate areas, adds one sector above the existing Avon East MOA, and converts two MOAs to restricted areas. The changes represent a mixed bag for general aviation: On one hand, dividing the MOA into three will allow the military to activate only those sectors needed for a mission, leaving the other sectors open for use by the public; and there are no changes to the overall lateral dimensions of the complex. On the other hand, the new restricted areas and addition of an MOA will further limit GA operations in the area.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > “AOPA has worked to educate the Air Force about the need for general aviation access to the Avon Park area,” said AOPA Manager of Air Traffic Services Tom Kramer. “With the subdivision of the Lake Placid MOA, GA pilots will have greater access through this busy airspace.”
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The Lake Placid MOA will now be three MOAs: Lake Placid North, East, and West. Additional times of use will now include “other times by notam.” Avon East High MOA will be added from 14,000 feet msl up to but not including 18,000 feet msl above Avon East MOA. The Avon North and South MOAs will become Restricted Areas R-2901 M and N, respectively. Effective times of the Basinger and Marian MOAs will now include “other times by notam.” These changes take effect July 29 at 0901 Zulu.
> > > > > OOPS this is a AOPA article from May 27, 2010
> > > > Well, that hasn't happened, the problem is that Foreflight treats NOTAM's the same as TFR"s and if you are flying along and paying attention in a suspect airspace the Foreflight screen will depict the MOA area as a TFR and there is no color designation between the TFR and the MOA. Also the MOA restricted area is extended outward of the restricted area as defined on the map. This is absolutely nuts! OBTP
> > > OBTP, it is very impure to be fondling such gadgetry in flight. Never catch me with it! Take that F-106 buzz the old-fashioned way!
> > Well, back in the day it was the boys from Homestead that would buzz us in their F-4"s could see that black smoke coming from miles away and talk to them on the radio as they chuckled. Myself along with Bennie and Alfonso did a bit of testing for their radar systems to determine if they could identify us. Most of the time they just gave up and we had to tell them where we were. Yep, gadgetry has really dumb down this sport. Old Bob, The Purist
> It’s been close to 50 years now when I came very close to colliding with a B-52! I was flying my little home built Duster out of Minden, Nevada. I was right over Mono Lake at 16,000 feet when I spotted a big ship to my left. He looked to be on a collision course, but was a good 1000 feet below me. He kept getting bigger and bigger as I suddenly realized he was CLIMBING! Too late to maneuver and I wasn’t going to show him my belly and not see my demise! He passed right under me so close that I could see the copilot reading his checklist! I waited for the turbulence, but not even a bump! If he had passed over me, the vortex and jet thrust would have turned that little wooden ship into kindling! They never saw me!
> Later, I remembered that the little island in Mono Lake is the exit point for a low level Oil Burner route at exactly 16,000 feet………….I know this because I had flown that same route several times during my Air Force days!
> Who else has had a close encounter with heavy metal?
> JJ

Back in the early to mid 70's we'd be flying hang gliders above Tater Hill off of 421 north of Boone, N.C. and the B52's would be running the OB14, crossing the top of Tater and below us! What a sight!

On 10/28/22 7:22 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> There is no way the FAA can expect pilots to be aware of a TFR
> with only 17 minutes notice. Even in my Phoenix, with an EFIS that shows
> TFRs using ASDB info, I'd be likely to miss it. I think only an
> emergency could justify that, and military aircraft would have to sweep
> the area to direct aircraft out of the area, and then patrol the
> boundary to prevent aircraft from entering.

The FAA can and does issue "effective immediately" TFR's, typically for
wildfires. Compliance is your problem.

https://www.faa.gov/pilots/safety/notams_tfr/media/tfrweb.pdf

On 10/30/2022 2:31 PM, kinsell wrote:
> On 10/28/22 7:22 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> There is no way the FAA can expect pilots to be aware of a TFR with only 17 minutes
>> notice. Even in my Phoenix, with an EFIS that shows TFRs using ASDB info, I'd be likely
>> to miss it. I think only an emergency could justify that, and military aircraft would
>> have to sweep the area to direct aircraft out of the area, and then patrol the boundary
>> to prevent aircraft from entering.
>
> The FAA can and does issue "effective immediately" TFR's, typically for wildfires.
> Compliance is your problem.
>
>  https://www.faa.gov/pilots/safety/notams_tfr/media/tfrweb.pdf

Nope, it's also their problem, and the firefighters, too. They can't ensure flight safety
with a TFR without ensuring pilots have a way to access the information. What do they do
about aircraft already inside the TFR area when they issue the TFR, or those heading into
the area? Your reference doesn't address these compliance issues.

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

I recall one of the Black Forest pilots attempting to return to BFSS
from the vicinity of Canon City and he was getting low and asked for
clearance through one of the restricted areas around Ft. Carson.
Permission was denied so he declared an emergency. When asked the
nature of the emergency he said, "No fuel." He was cleared. They were
not amused when they discovered he was flying a glider.

Oh, IIRC the restricted area was an artillery range. I'd hate to fly
through there at the wrong time!

Dan
5J

On 10/30/22 00:05, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, October 29, 2022 at 9:17:22 PM UTC-4, sgs...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Saturday, October 29, 2022 at 12:01:31 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
>>> Unless the rules have changed, an MOA is not restricted airspace. It's
>>> a military operating area and you and I have as much right to fly there
>>> as the military.
>>>
>>> Having said that, I've been asked by ATC if I would mind deviating
>>> around a "hot" MOA and I have never declined that request. I also
>>> inquire as to the status of an MOA that I plan to enter or cross.
>>>
>>> Dan
>>> 5J
>>> On 10/28/22 18:47, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 10:59:08 AM UTC-4, Glenn Betzoldt wrote:
>>>>> On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 10:05:17 AM UTC-4, Glenn Betzoldt wrote:
>>>>>> On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 10:03:18 AM UTC-4, Glenn Betzoldt wrote:
>>>>>>> On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 9:28:35 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 10/28/2022 6:08 AM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 8:32:22 AM UTC-4, Glenn Betzoldt wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 7:37:10 AM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>>>>> A note to all you Big Dogs out of Seminole, check the Avon Park and Winter Haven airspace before making a costly mistake. I know that you guys go up and down Hwy 27 following each other so take foreflight with you and check the TFR postings. Old Bob, The Purist
>>>>>>>>>> Bob I don't think your forflight is giving you correct info on TFR's ? My stuff does not show any new TFR's in that area.
>>>>>>>>>> Can anybody else see them?
>>>>>>>>>> GB
>>>>>>>>> I will send you a pic of yesterday! IT DID NOT SHOW U8NTIL AFTER 2 YESTERDAY
>>>>>>>> I don't know if this the same issue, but I have seen a few bogus TFRs on my Dynon Skyview
>>>>>>>> EFIS. In those cases (at least three times), the FAA said they did not issue the TFRs that
>>>>>>>> showed on my screen, and Dynon said Skyview gets TFR data from the same ADSB data that has
>>>>>>>> the weather information. The bogus TFRs were not there at the beginning of the flights.
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Eric Greenwell - USA
>>>>>>>> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
>>>>>>>> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
>>>>>>> Ok Bob I found it. It's not a TFR it's a MOA. that makes all the differance.
>>>>>> The FAA has finalized plans to amend special-use airspace over the Avon Park Air Force Range in central Florida.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The final rule subdivides the Lake Placid MOA into three separate areas, adds one sector above the existing Avon East MOA, and converts two MOAs to restricted areas. The changes represent a mixed bag for general aviation: On one hand, dividing the MOA into three will allow the military to activate only those sectors needed for a mission, leaving the other sectors open for use by the public; and there are no changes to the overall lateral dimensions of the complex. On the other hand, the new restricted areas and addition of an MOA will further limit GA operations in the area.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> “AOPA has worked to educate the Air Force about the need for general aviation access to the Avon Park area,” said AOPA Manager of Air Traffic Services Tom Kramer. “With the subdivision of the Lake Placid MOA, GA pilots will have greater access through this busy airspace.”
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Lake Placid MOA will now be three MOAs: Lake Placid North, East, and West. Additional times of use will now include “other times by notam.” Avon East High MOA will be added from 14,000 feet msl up to but not including 18,000 feet msl above Avon East MOA. The Avon North and South MOAs will become Restricted Areas R-2901 M and N, respectively. Effective times of the Basinger and Marian MOAs will now include “other times by notam.” These changes take effect July 29 at 0901 Zulu.
>>>>> OOPS this is a AOPA article from May 27, 2010
>>>> Well, that hasn't happened, the problem is that Foreflight treats NOTAM's the same as TFR"s and if you are flying along and paying attention in a suspect airspace the Foreflight screen will depict the MOA area as a TFR and there is no color designation between the TFR and the MOA. Also the MOA restricted area is extended outward of the restricted area as defined on the map. This is absolutely nuts! OBTP
>> Ya, Dan - if you're IFR you are just seperated from an active MOA without discussion. If VFR in contact with ATC, they pretty much have to disown you if you're not planning to avoid it.
> sgs, you know this better than anyone, but I was caught in a bad situation a couple years back and needed ATC help. I called Miami ctr and requested help getting through the hot restricted area. It took a minute or two and I was given a code to sq and a timeframe of 15 minutes to get through, in which I did. After landing I called the mission desk and was informed that that space while hot is not governed by atc Miami and they pretty much wash their hands of any IFR and VFR traffic within the restricted altitudes. OBTP