On Sunday, October 30, 2022 at 4:27:50 PM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> I recall one of the Black Forest pilots attempting to return to BFSS
> from the vicinity of Canon City and he was getting low and asked for
> clearance through one of the restricted areas around Ft. Carson.
> Permission was denied so he declared an emergency. When asked the
> nature of the emergency he said, "No fuel." He was cleared. They were
> not amused when they discovered he was flying a glider.
>
> Oh, IIRC the restricted area was an artillery range. I'd hate to fly
> through there at the wrong time!
>
> Dan
> 5J
> On 10/30/22 00:05, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, October 29, 2022 at 9:17:22 PM UTC-4, sgs...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On Saturday, October 29, 2022 at 12:01:31 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> >>> Unless the rules have changed, an MOA is not restricted airspace. It's
> >>> a military operating area and you and I have as much right to fly there
> >>> as the military.
> >>>
> >>> Having said that, I've been asked by ATC if I would mind deviating
> >>> around a "hot" MOA and I have never declined that request. I also
> >>> inquire as to the status of an MOA that I plan to enter or cross.
> >>>
> >>> Dan
> >>> 5J
> >>> On 10/28/22 18:47, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>> On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 10:59:08 AM UTC-4, Glenn Betzoldt wrote:
> >>>>> On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 10:05:17 AM UTC-4, Glenn Betzoldt wrote:
> >>>>>> On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 10:03:18 AM UTC-4, Glenn Betzoldt wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 9:28:35 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On 10/28/2022 6:08 AM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 8:32:22 AM UTC-4, Glenn Betzoldt wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 7:37:10 AM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>>>>> ...
> >>>>>>>>>>> A note to all you Big Dogs out of Seminole, check the Avon Park and Winter Haven airspace before making a costly mistake. I know that you guys go up and down Hwy 27 following each other so take foreflight with you and check the TFR postings. Old Bob, The Purist
> >>>>>>>>>> Bob I don't think your forflight is giving you correct info on TFR's ? My stuff does not show any new TFR's in that area.
> >>>>>>>>>> Can anybody else see them?
> >>>>>>>>>> GB
> >>>>>>>>> I will send you a pic of yesterday! IT DID NOT SHOW U8NTIL AFTER 2 YESTERDAY
> >>>>>>>> I don't know if this the same issue, but I have seen a few bogus TFRs on my Dynon Skyview
> >>>>>>>> EFIS. In those cases (at least three times), the FAA said they did not issue the TFRs that
> >>>>>>>> showed on my screen, and Dynon said Skyview gets TFR data from the same ADSB data that has
> >>>>>>>> the weather information. The bogus TFRs were not there at the beginning of the flights.
> >>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>> Eric Greenwell - USA
> >>>>>>>> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> >>>>>>>> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
> >>>>>>> Ok Bob I found it. It's not a TFR it's a MOA. that makes all the differance.
> >>>>>> The FAA has finalized plans to amend special-use airspace over the Avon Park Air Force Range in central Florida.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The final rule subdivides the Lake Placid MOA into three separate areas, adds one sector above the existing Avon East MOA, and converts two MOAs to restricted areas. The changes represent a mixed bag for general aviation: On one hand, dividing the MOA into three will allow the military to activate only those sectors needed for a mission, leaving the other sectors open for use by the public; and there are no changes to the overall lateral dimensions of the complex. On the other hand, the new restricted areas and addition of an MOA will further limit GA operations in the area.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> “AOPA has worked to educate the Air Force about the need for general aviation access to the Avon Park area,” said AOPA Manager of Air Traffic Services Tom Kramer. “With the subdivision of the Lake Placid MOA, GA pilots will have greater access through this busy airspace.”
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The Lake Placid MOA will now be three MOAs: Lake Placid North, East, and West. Additional times of use will now include “other times by notam.” Avon East High MOA will be added from 14,000 feet msl up to but not including 18,000 feet msl above Avon East MOA. The Avon North and South MOAs will become Restricted Areas R-2901 M and N, respectively. Effective times of the Basinger and Marian MOAs will now include “other times by notam.” These changes take effect July 29 at 0901 Zulu.
> >>>>> OOPS this is a AOPA article from May 27, 2010
> >>>> Well, that hasn't happened, the problem is that Foreflight treats NOTAM's the same as TFR"s and if you are flying along and paying attention in a suspect airspace the Foreflight screen will depict the MOA area as a TFR and there is no color designation between the TFR and the MOA. Also the MOA restricted area is extended outward of the restricted area as defined on the map. This is absolutely nuts! OBTP
> >> Ya, Dan - if you're IFR you are just seperated from an active MOA without discussion. If VFR in contact with ATC, they pretty much have to disown you if you're not planning to avoid it.
> > sgs, you know this better than anyone, but I was caught in a bad situation a couple years back and needed ATC help. I called Miami ctr and requested help getting through the hot restricted area. It took a minute or two and I was given a code to sq and a timeframe of 15 minutes to get through, in which I did. After landing I called the mission desk and was informed that that space while hot is not governed by atc Miami and they pretty much wash their hands of any IFR and VFR traffic within the restricted altitudes. OBTP

The restricted area north of Cal City was always listed as active, but Navy controllers would sometimes tell glider pilots if the range was hot or not………..we took that to mean we could safely use the western ridge located inside the restricted area!
JJ

On Monday, October 31, 2022 at 10:35:22 AM UTC-4, johnsin...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Sunday, October 30, 2022 at 4:27:50 PM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > I recall one of the Black Forest pilots attempting to return to BFSS
> > from the vicinity of Canon City and he was getting low and asked for
> > clearance through one of the restricted areas around Ft. Carson.
> > Permission was denied so he declared an emergency. When asked the
> > nature of the emergency he said, "No fuel." He was cleared. They were
> > not amused when they discovered he was flying a glider.
> >
> > Oh, IIRC the restricted area was an artillery range. I'd hate to fly
> > through there at the wrong time!
> >
> > Dan
> > 5J
> > On 10/30/22 00:05, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Saturday, October 29, 2022 at 9:17:22 PM UTC-4, sgs...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >> On Saturday, October 29, 2022 at 12:01:31 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > >>> Unless the rules have changed, an MOA is not restricted airspace. It's
> > >>> a military operating area and you and I have as much right to fly there
> > >>> as the military.
> > >>>
> > >>> Having said that, I've been asked by ATC if I would mind deviating
> > >>> around a "hot" MOA and I have never declined that request. I also
> > >>> inquire as to the status of an MOA that I plan to enter or cross.
> > >>>
> > >>> Dan
> > >>> 5J
> > >>> On 10/28/22 18:47, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >>>> On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 10:59:08 AM UTC-4, Glenn Betzoldt wrote:
> > >>>>> On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 10:05:17 AM UTC-4, Glenn Betzoldt wrote:
> > >>>>>> On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 10:03:18 AM UTC-4, Glenn Betzoldt wrote:
> > >>>>>>> On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 9:28:35 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > >>>>>>>> On 10/28/2022 6:08 AM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>> On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 8:32:22 AM UTC-4, Glenn Betzoldt wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>> On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 7:37:10 AM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >>>>>>>> ...
> > >>>>>>>>>>> A note to all you Big Dogs out of Seminole, check the Avon Park and Winter Haven airspace before making a costly mistake. I know that you guys go up and down Hwy 27 following each other so take foreflight with you and check the TFR postings. Old Bob, The Purist
> > >>>>>>>>>> Bob I don't think your forflight is giving you correct info on TFR's ? My stuff does not show any new TFR's in that area.
> > >>>>>>>>>> Can anybody else see them?
> > >>>>>>>>>> GB
> > >>>>>>>>> I will send you a pic of yesterday! IT DID NOT SHOW U8NTIL AFTER 2 YESTERDAY
> > >>>>>>>> I don't know if this the same issue, but I have seen a few bogus TFRs on my Dynon Skyview
> > >>>>>>>> EFIS. In those cases (at least three times), the FAA said they did not issue the TFRs that
> > >>>>>>>> showed on my screen, and Dynon said Skyview gets TFR data from the same ADSB data that has
> > >>>>>>>> the weather information. The bogus TFRs were not there at the beginning of the flights.
> > >>>>>>>> --
> > >>>>>>>> Eric Greenwell - USA
> > >>>>>>>> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> > >>>>>>>> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
> > >>>>>>> Ok Bob I found it. It's not a TFR it's a MOA. that makes all the differance.
> > >>>>>> The FAA has finalized plans to amend special-use airspace over the Avon Park Air Force Range in central Florida.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> The final rule subdivides the Lake Placid MOA into three separate areas, adds one sector above the existing Avon East MOA, and converts two MOAs to restricted areas. The changes represent a mixed bag for general aviation: On one hand, dividing the MOA into three will allow the military to activate only those sectors needed for a mission, leaving the other sectors open for use by the public; and there are no changes to the overall lateral dimensions of the complex. On the other hand, the new restricted areas and addition of an MOA will further limit GA operations in the area.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> “AOPA has worked to educate the Air Force about the need for general aviation access to the Avon Park area,” said AOPA Manager of Air Traffic Services Tom Kramer. “With the subdivision of the Lake Placid MOA, GA pilots will have greater access through this busy airspace.”
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> The Lake Placid MOA will now be three MOAs: Lake Placid North, East, and West. Additional times of use will now include “other times by notam.” Avon East High MOA will be added from 14,000 feet msl up to but not including 18,000 feet msl above Avon East MOA. The Avon North and South MOAs will become Restricted Areas R-2901 M and N, respectively. Effective times of the Basinger and Marian MOAs will now include “other times by notam.” These changes take effect July 29 at 0901 Zulu.
> > >>>>> OOPS this is a AOPA article from May 27, 2010
> > >>>> Well, that hasn't happened, the problem is that Foreflight treats NOTAM's the same as TFR"s and if you are flying along and paying attention in a suspect airspace the Foreflight screen will depict the MOA area as a TFR and there is no color designation between the TFR and the MOA. Also the MOA restricted area is extended outward of the restricted area as defined on the map. This is absolutely nuts! OBTP
> > >> Ya, Dan - if you're IFR you are just seperated from an active MOA without discussion. If VFR in contact with ATC, they pretty much have to disown you if you're not planning to avoid it.
> > > sgs, you know this better than anyone, but I was caught in a bad situation a couple years back and needed ATC help. I called Miami ctr and requested help getting through the hot restricted area. It took a minute or two and I was given a code to sq and a timeframe of 15 minutes to get through, in which I did. After landing I called the mission desk and was informed that that space while hot is not governed by atc Miami and they pretty much wash their hands of any IFR and VFR traffic within the restricted altitudes. OBTP
> The restricted area north of Cal City was always listed as active, but Navy controllers would sometimes tell glider pilots if the range was hot or not………..we took that to mean we could safely use the western ridge located inside the restricted area!
> JJ
That is pretty much the case with 2901, yesterday I contacted the Mission Desk and confirmed that the range was cold prior to making my flight. If there were a better way to allow us entry when the area was cold would work well, I guess that would be asking for too much. Old Bob, The Purist

On 10/31/2022 9:35 AM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> sgs, you know this better than anyone, but I was caught in a bad situation a couple years back and needed ATC help. I called Miami ctr and requested help getting through the hot restricted area. It took a minute or two and I was given a code to sq and a timeframe of 15 minutes to get through, in which I did. After landing I called the mission desk and was informed that that space while hot is not governed by atc Miami and they pretty much wash their hands of any IFR and VFR traffic within the restricted altitudes. OBTP
>> The restricted area north of Cal City was always listed as active, but Navy controllers would sometimes tell glider pilots if the range was hot or not………..we took that to mean we could safely use the western ridge located inside the restricted area!
>> JJ
> That is pretty much the case with 2901, yesterday I contacted the Mission Desk and confirmed that the range was cold prior to making my flight. If there were a better way to allow us entry when the area was cold would work well, I guess that would be asking for too much. Old Bob, The Purist

You can check the status using this website:

https://sua.faa.gov/sua/siteFrame.app

At some places, you can contact the controlling agency (like at Ely - "Clover Control") in
flight. It might be cold, or they might allow you through a portion of it, even if it's hot.

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

On Monday, October 31, 2022 at 12:40:08 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> On 10/31/2022 9:35 AM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>> sgs, you know this better than anyone, but I was caught in a bad situation a couple years back and needed ATC help. I called Miami ctr and requested help getting through the hot restricted area. It took a minute or two and I was given a code to sq and a timeframe of 15 minutes to get through, in which I did. After landing I called the mission desk and was informed that that space while hot is not governed by atc Miami and they pretty much wash their hands of any IFR and VFR traffic within the restricted altitudes.. OBTP
> >> The restricted area north of Cal City was always listed as active, but Navy controllers would sometimes tell glider pilots if the range was hot or not………..we took that to mean we could safely use the western ridge located inside the restricted area!
> >> JJ
> > That is pretty much the case with 2901, yesterday I contacted the Mission Desk and confirmed that the range was cold prior to making my flight. If there were a better way to allow us entry when the area was cold would work well, I guess that would be asking for too much. Old Bob, The Purist
> You can check the status using this website:
>
> https://sua.faa.gov/sua/siteFrame.app
>
> At some places, you can contact the controlling agency (like at Ely - "Clover Control") in
> flight. It might be cold, or they might allow you through a portion of it, even if it's hot.
> --
> Eric Greenwell - USA
> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
Hey Bob, I thought you had a system down for this. Mission desk should be able to tell you which frequency you can call on to check the real-time status vs. whatever your transit scheme is. Of course, if they tell you it's going hot at XX:XX and you don't clear in time there's likely to be some hullabaloo. By the way, a landout in the actual AGR would piss off somebody and-uh look out for the UXO!

On Monday, October 31, 2022 at 1:20:17 PM UTC-7, sgs...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, October 31, 2022 at 12:40:08 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > On 10/31/2022 9:35 AM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >>>> sgs, you know this better than anyone, but I was caught in a bad situation a couple years back and needed ATC help. I called Miami ctr and requested help getting through the hot restricted area. It took a minute or two and I was given a code to sq and a timeframe of 15 minutes to get through, in which I did. After landing I called the mission desk and was informed that that space while hot is not governed by atc Miami and they pretty much wash their hands of any IFR and VFR traffic within the restricted altitudes. OBTP
> > >> The restricted area north of Cal City was always listed as active, but Navy controllers would sometimes tell glider pilots if the range was hot or not………..we took that to mean we could safely use the western ridge located inside the restricted area!
> > >> JJ
> > > That is pretty much the case with 2901, yesterday I contacted the Mission Desk and confirmed that the range was cold prior to making my flight. If there were a better way to allow us entry when the area was cold would work well, I guess that would be asking for too much. Old Bob, The Purist
> > You can check the status using this website:
> >
> > https://sua.faa.gov/sua/siteFrame.app
> >
> > At some places, you can contact the controlling agency (like at Ely - "Clover Control") in
> > flight. It might be cold, or they might allow you through a portion of it, even if it's hot.
> > --
> > Eric Greenwell - USA
> > - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> > https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
> Hey Bob, I thought you had a system down for this. Mission desk should be able to tell you which frequency you can call on to check the real-time status vs. whatever your transit scheme is. Of course, if they tell you it's going hot at XX:XX and you don't clear in time there's likely to be some hullabaloo. By the way, a landout in the actual AGR would piss off somebody and-uh look out for the UXO!

Back in the late ‘60’s there was a soaring pilot that had a thick German accent who got lost somewhere north of LosVegas. He ended up landing on a dry lake that was used in testing A bombs! They thought they had a spy for sure!
A German that had two spy cameras attached to his canopy!!!
They interrogated him for a solid week and didn’t return his German Spy ship (H-301 Libelle) for another month!
I talked to him 10 years later and he was still too upset to even talk about it!
JJ

On Monday, October 31, 2022 at 5:01:24 PM UTC-4, johnsin...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Monday, October 31, 2022 at 1:20:17 PM UTC-7, sgs...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Monday, October 31, 2022 at 12:40:08 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > > On 10/31/2022 9:35 AM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > >>>> sgs, you know this better than anyone, but I was caught in a bad situation a couple years back and needed ATC help. I called Miami ctr and requested help getting through the hot restricted area. It took a minute or two and I was given a code to sq and a timeframe of 15 minutes to get through, in which I did. After landing I called the mission desk and was informed that that space while hot is not governed by atc Miami and they pretty much wash their hands of any IFR and VFR traffic within the restricted altitudes. OBTP
> > > >> The restricted area north of Cal City was always listed as active, but Navy controllers would sometimes tell glider pilots if the range was hot or not………..we took that to mean we could safely use the western ridge located inside the restricted area!
> > > >> JJ
> > > > That is pretty much the case with 2901, yesterday I contacted the Mission Desk and confirmed that the range was cold prior to making my flight.. If there were a better way to allow us entry when the area was cold would work well, I guess that would be asking for too much. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > You can check the status using this website:
> > >
> > > https://sua.faa.gov/sua/siteFrame.app
> > >
> > > At some places, you can contact the controlling agency (like at Ely - "Clover Control") in
> > > flight. It might be cold, or they might allow you through a portion of it, even if it's hot.
> > > --
> > > Eric Greenwell - USA
> > > - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> > > https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
> > Hey Bob, I thought you had a system down for this. Mission desk should be able to tell you which frequency you can call on to check the real-time status vs. whatever your transit scheme is. Of course, if they tell you it's going hot at XX:XX and you don't clear in time there's likely to be some hullabaloo. By the way, a landout in the actual AGR would piss off somebody and-uh look out for the UXO!
> Back in the late ‘60’s there was a soaring pilot that had a thick German accent who got lost somewhere north of LosVegas. He ended up landing on a dry lake that was used in testing A bombs! They thought they had a spy for sure!
> A German that had two spy cameras attached to his canopy!!!
> They interrogated him for a solid week and didn’t return his German Spy ship (H-301 Libelle) for another month!
> I talked to him 10 years later and he was still too upset to even talk about it!
> JJ

Wow, in 1960 Dick Schreder was in a sailplane competition in West Germany and accidentally strayed across the border into East Germany. He and his sailplane were released and returned to the West in 24 hours. The commies didn't make a big deal out of it apparently.

Walt Connelly

On Monday, October 31, 2022 at 7:40:17 PM UTC-5, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
> On Monday, October 31, 2022 at 5:01:24 PM UTC-4, johnsin...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Monday, October 31, 2022 at 1:20:17 PM UTC-7, sgs...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Monday, October 31, 2022 at 12:40:08 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > > > On 10/31/2022 9:35 AM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > >>>> sgs, you know this better than anyone, but I was caught in a bad situation a couple years back and needed ATC help. I called Miami ctr and requested help getting through the hot restricted area. It took a minute or two and I was given a code to sq and a timeframe of 15 minutes to get through, in which I did. After landing I called the mission desk and was informed that that space while hot is not governed by atc Miami and they pretty much wash their hands of any IFR and VFR traffic within the restricted altitudes. OBTP
> > > > >> The restricted area north of Cal City was always listed as active, but Navy controllers would sometimes tell glider pilots if the range was hot or not………..we took that to mean we could safely use the western ridge located inside the restricted area!
> > > > >> JJ
> > > > > That is pretty much the case with 2901, yesterday I contacted the Mission Desk and confirmed that the range was cold prior to making my flight. If there were a better way to allow us entry when the area was cold would work well, I guess that would be asking for too much. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > > You can check the status using this website:
> > > >
> > > > https://sua.faa.gov/sua/siteFrame.app
> > > >
> > > > At some places, you can contact the controlling agency (like at Ely - "Clover Control") in
> > > > flight. It might be cold, or they might allow you through a portion of it, even if it's hot.
> > > > --
> > > > Eric Greenwell - USA
> > > > - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> > > > https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
> > > Hey Bob, I thought you had a system down for this. Mission desk should be able to tell you which frequency you can call on to check the real-time status vs. whatever your transit scheme is. Of course, if they tell you it's going hot at XX:XX and you don't clear in time there's likely to be some hullabaloo. By the way, a landout in the actual AGR would piss off somebody and-uh look out for the UXO!
> > Back in the late ‘60’s there was a soaring pilot that had a thick German accent who got lost somewhere north of LosVegas. He ended up landing on a dry lake that was used in testing A bombs! They thought they had a spy for sure!
> > A German that had two spy cameras attached to his canopy!!!
> > They interrogated him for a solid week and didn’t return his German Spy ship (H-301 Libelle) for another month!
> > I talked to him 10 years later and he was still too upset to even talk about it!
> > JJ
> Wow, in 1960 Dick Schreder was in a sailplane competition in West Germany and accidentally strayed across the border into East Germany. He and his sailplane were released and returned to the West in 24 hours. The commies didn't make a big deal out of it apparently.
>
>
> Walt Connelly
KO landed at the Pratt & Whitney strip NW of PBI on a Sunday not very long after 9/11. Didn't dump his ballast, didn't have his wallet!! Not exactly area 51 but they do defence work there. Guards were very not-happy to have a bearded guy with an accent and no ID dripping stuff all over the place. Yeah, sure, it's just water, buddy...took a few hours to settle things but QuiQue is still laughing about it.

On Monday, October 31, 2022 at 4:20:17 PM UTC-4, sgs...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, October 31, 2022 at 12:40:08 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > On 10/31/2022 9:35 AM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >>>> sgs, you know this better than anyone, but I was caught in a bad situation a couple years back and needed ATC help. I called Miami ctr and requested help getting through the hot restricted area. It took a minute or two and I was given a code to sq and a timeframe of 15 minutes to get through, in which I did. After landing I called the mission desk and was informed that that space while hot is not governed by atc Miami and they pretty much wash their hands of any IFR and VFR traffic within the restricted altitudes. OBTP
> > >> The restricted area north of Cal City was always listed as active, but Navy controllers would sometimes tell glider pilots if the range was hot or not………..we took that to mean we could safely use the western ridge located inside the restricted area!
> > >> JJ
> > > That is pretty much the case with 2901, yesterday I contacted the Mission Desk and confirmed that the range was cold prior to making my flight. If there were a better way to allow us entry when the area was cold would work well, I guess that would be asking for too much. Old Bob, The Purist
> > You can check the status using this website:
> >
> > https://sua.faa.gov/sua/siteFrame.app
> >
> > At some places, you can contact the controlling agency (like at Ely - "Clover Control") in
> > flight. It might be cold, or they might allow you through a portion of it, even if it's hot.
> > --
> > Eric Greenwell - USA
> > - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> > https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
> Hey Bob, I thought you had a system down for this. Mission desk should be able to tell you which frequency you can call on to check the real-time status vs. whatever your transit scheme is. Of course, if they tell you it's going hot at XX:XX and you don't clear in time there's likely to be some hullabaloo. By the way, a landout in the actual AGR would piss off somebody and-uh look out for the UXO!
Hey T, I do have a great system for this and very time I call they tell me to say hello to you! My system works great and as you know that forbidden area can and will become hot on a moments notice. If you ever head out to Hwy60 at the Frostproof exit, those jockey's skim the tree tops headed for their ground targets on the practice strip and then pull like a gorilla getting up and out. I can assure you that you DO NOT want to be there when the area is hot. Us glider pilots are under too much scrutiny, primarily because of NMAC's and some yo yo's violating class B over in Tampa during a certain March timeline. Old Bob, The Purist

> > > You can check the status using this website:
> > >
> > > https://sua.faa.gov/sua/siteFrame.app

This is a very handy website. Does anybody know if there is a corresponding app for the Android phone?

On 11/1/2022 5:12 AM, Mark Mocho wrote:
>>>> You can check the status using this website:
>>>>
>>>> https://sua.faa.gov/sua/siteFrame.app
>
> This is a very handy website. Does anybody know if there is a corresponding app for the Android phone?

It's supposed to work in the Chrome browser, but it doesn't on my Galaxy S8. It does work
in Safari on my iPhone 6. Here's the claim, and maybe you'd want to contact them:

https://sua.faa.gov/sua/SUA_Release_Notes.pdf

"The Special Use Airspace (SUA) Website provides a source to review airspace schedule and
temporary flight restriction (TFR) notice to airmen (NOTAM) data for flight planning purposes.

The site offers a consistent look and feel, enhanced design, and improved functionality
implemented from approved SUA requirements.

Customer support is available 24 hours a day, 7 days a week by phone at 1-866-466-1336 or
email 7-AWA-NAIMES@faa.gov.

Comments and enhancements are welcomed from the communities of interest. A list of known
issues has been included in this document and will be updated as successive releases are
installed.

Browser Requirements
The application framework supports a minimum of Internet Explorer (IE) 11 and Google
Chrome browsers."

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

On 11/1/2022 7:44 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> On 11/1/2022 5:12 AM, Mark Mocho wrote:
>>>>> You can check the status using this website:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://sua.faa.gov/sua/siteFrame.app
>>
>> This is a very handy website. Does anybody know if there is a corresponding app for the
>> Android phone?
>
> It's supposed to work in the Chrome browser, but it doesn't on my Galaxy S8. It does work
> in Safari on my iPhone 6. Here's the claim, and maybe you'd want to contact them:
>
> https://sua.faa.gov/sua/SUA_Release_Notes.pdf
>
> "The Special Use Airspace (SUA) Website provides a source to review airspace schedule and
> temporary flight restriction (TFR) notice to airmen (NOTAM) data for flight planning
> purposes.
>
> The site offers a consistent look and feel, enhanced design, and improved functionality
> implemented from approved SUA requirements.
>
> Customer support is available 24 hours a day, 7 days a week by phone at 1-866-466-1336 or
> email 7-AWA-NAIMES@faa.gov.
>
> Comments and enhancements are welcomed from the communities of interest. A list of known
> issues has been included in this document and will be updated as successive releases are
> installed.
>
> Browser Requirements
> The application framework supports a minimum of Internet Explorer (IE) 11 and Google
> Chrome browsers."
>
Correction: the site does open in Safari on an iPhone 6, but the interface doesn't work
well, so it's tedious to use. It doesn't even open in Chrome; possibly, a newer iPhone
would work, as my phone can't use the iOS update of the last several years.

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Skyvector.com on Brave works on my Galaxy S10e and shows the upcoming
TFR around ABQ.

Dan
5J

On 11/1/22 06:12, Mark Mocho wrote:
>>>> You can check the status using this website:
>>>>
>>>> https://sua.faa.gov/sua/siteFrame.app
>
> This is a very handy website. Does anybody know if there is a corresponding app for the Android phone?

On 11/1/2022 10:34 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Skyvector.com on Brave works on my Galaxy S10e and shows the upcoming TFR around ABQ.
>
> Dan
> 5J
>
> On 11/1/22 06:12, Mark Mocho wrote:
>>>>> You can check the status using this website:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://sua.faa.gov/sua/siteFrame.app
>>
>> This is a very handy website. Does anybody know if there is a corresponding app for the
>> Android phone?
>
That's better than nothing (and I sometimes use it for TFRs), but it doesn't show the
status of the Restricted Areas or MOAs. Those are the main things I get from the FAA site,
as digging it out of the NOTAMs is difficult
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Simple enough to call ABQ Center (ZAB) and ask the status. Or, since I
have ADS-B IN in my glider, I could carry along my iPad though it's not
very tolerant of heat or cold. OR I could call up Avare on my Andriod
phone and connect it to my ADS-B.

Fortunately, most of the Restricted Areas in NM are in the southern part
of the state and most or our flying is in the northern part.

Dan
5J

On 11/1/22 12:05, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> On 11/1/2022 10:34 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> Skyvector.com on Brave works on my Galaxy S10e and shows the upcoming
>> TFR around ABQ.
>>
>> Dan
>> 5J
>>
>> On 11/1/22 06:12, Mark Mocho wrote:
>>>>>> You can check the status using this website:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://sua.faa.gov/sua/siteFrame.app
>>>
>>> This is a very handy website. Does anybody know if there is a
>>> corresponding app for the Android phone?
>>
> That's better than nothing (and I sometimes use it for TFRs), but it
> doesn't show the status of the Restricted Areas or MOAs. Those are the
> main things I get from the FAA site, as digging it out of the NOTAMs is
> difficult

On Saturday, October 29, 2022 at 10:18:57 AM UTC-5, johnsin...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Saturday, October 29, 2022 at 7:35:12 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, October 29, 2022 at 5:02:51 AM UTC-4, sgs...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 8:47:25 PM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 10:59:08 AM UTC-4, Glenn Betzoldt wrote:
> > > > > On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 10:05:17 AM UTC-4, Glenn Betzoldt wrote:
> > > > > > On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 10:03:18 AM UTC-4, Glenn Betzoldt wrote:
> > > > > > > On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 9:28:35 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > > > > > > > On 10/28/2022 6:08 AM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 8:32:22 AM UTC-4, Glenn Betzoldt wrote:
> > > > > > > > >> On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 7:37:10 AM UTC-4, youngbl....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > ...
> > > > > > > > >>> A note to all you Big Dogs out of Seminole, check the Avon Park and Winter Haven airspace before making a costly mistake. I know that you guys go up and down Hwy 27 following each other so take foreflight with you and check the TFR postings. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > > > > > > >> Bob I don't think your forflight is giving you correct info on TFR's ? My stuff does not show any new TFR's in that area.
> > > > > > > > >> Can anybody else see them?
> > > > > > > > >> GB
> > > > > > > > > I will send you a pic of yesterday! IT DID NOT SHOW U8NTIL AFTER 2 YESTERDAY
> > > > > > > > I don't know if this the same issue, but I have seen a few bogus TFRs on my Dynon Skyview
> > > > > > > > EFIS. In those cases (at least three times), the FAA said they did not issue the TFRs that
> > > > > > > > showed on my screen, and Dynon said Skyview gets TFR data from the same ADSB data that has
> > > > > > > > the weather information. The bogus TFRs were not there at the beginning of the flights.
> > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > Eric Greenwell - USA
> > > > > > > > - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> > > > > > > > https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
> > > > > > > Ok Bob I found it. It's not a TFR it's a MOA. that makes all the differance.
> > > > > > The FAA has finalized plans to amend special-use airspace over the Avon Park Air Force Range in central Florida.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The final rule subdivides the Lake Placid MOA into three separate areas, adds one sector above the existing Avon East MOA, and converts two MOAs to restricted areas. The changes represent a mixed bag for general aviation: On one hand, dividing the MOA into three will allow the military to activate only those sectors needed for a mission, leaving the other sectors open for use by the public; and there are no changes to the overall lateral dimensions of the complex. On the other hand, the new restricted areas and addition of an MOA will further limit GA operations in the area.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > “AOPA has worked to educate the Air Force about the need for general aviation access to the Avon Park area,” said AOPA Manager of Air Traffic Services Tom Kramer. “With the subdivision of the Lake Placid MOA, GA pilots will have greater access through this busy airspace.”
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The Lake Placid MOA will now be three MOAs: Lake Placid North, East, and West. Additional times of use will now include “other times by notam.” Avon East High MOA will be added from 14,000 feet msl up to but not including 18,000 feet msl above Avon East MOA. The Avon North and South MOAs will become Restricted Areas R-2901 M and N, respectively. Effective times of the Basinger and Marian MOAs will now include “other times by notam.” These changes take effect July 29 at 0901 Zulu.
> > > > > OOPS this is a AOPA article from May 27, 2010
> > > > Well, that hasn't happened, the problem is that Foreflight treats NOTAM's the same as TFR"s and if you are flying along and paying attention in a suspect airspace the Foreflight screen will depict the MOA area as a TFR and there is no color designation between the TFR and the MOA. Also the MOA restricted area is extended outward of the restricted area as defined on the map. This is absolutely nuts! OBTP
> > > OBTP, it is very impure to be fondling such gadgetry in flight. Never catch me with it! Take that F-106 buzz the old-fashioned way!
> > Well, back in the day it was the boys from Homestead that would buzz us in their F-4"s could see that black smoke coming from miles away and talk to them on the radio as they chuckled. Myself along with Bennie and Alfonso did a bit of testing for their radar systems to determine if they could identify us. Most of the time they just gave up and we had to tell them where we were. Yep, gadgetry has really dumb down this sport. Old Bob, The Purist
> It’s been close to 50 years now when I came very close to colliding with a B-52! I was flying my little home built Duster out of Minden, Nevada. I was right over Mono Lake at 16,000 feet when I spotted a big ship to my left. He looked to be on a collision course, but was a good 1000 feet below me. He kept getting bigger and bigger as I suddenly realized he was CLIMBING! Too late to maneuver and I wasn’t going to show him my belly and not see my demise! He passed right under me so close that I could see the copilot reading his checklist! I waited for the turbulence, but not even a bump! If he had passed over me, the vortex and jet thrust would have turned that little wooden ship into kindling! They never saw me!
> Later, I remembered that the little island in Mono Lake is the exit point for a low level Oil Burner route at exactly 16,000 feet………….I know this because I had flown that same route several times during my Air Force days!
> Who else has had a close encounter with heavy metal?
> JJ

I had a Lockheed Star Fighter do a barrel roll next to me at the same altitude while I was doing a winch launch in a Ka8. He came from behind and I could hear him but couldn't locate him. I think what saved my bacon was showing the full silhouette of the glider in a 45* climb. He was so close that I could see the segments of his jet nozzle and smell the exhaust gas. We had a low-level link route to the north of our field a couple of miles out, which was used by all NATO air forces but this guy may have taken the scenic route.

Uli
'AS'