https://dronexl.co/2022/07/28/passenger-drone-evtol-catches-fire/

Having a little trouble with the Guardian, Aura Aerospace is setting
their sights higher, announcing the Ranger with range to fly half way
around the world:

https://newatlas.com/aircraft/aura-ranger-long-range-evtol/

Hope it works better than the first one.

"Aura Aerospace is setting their sights higher, announcing the Ranger with range to fly half way around the world."

Jeez! The crap some people dream up. Just where are they going to hold all that "sustainable jet fuel" that allows for 22 hours of flight time? But don't worry, they say that if it runs out of fuel between their "New York to Adelaide Australia" flight, it "will glide." I'd be more concerned about how well it will float.

On Wednesday, December 21, 2022 at 7:10:08 PM UTC-6, Mark Mocho wrote:
> "Aura Aerospace is setting their sights higher, announcing the Ranger with range to fly half way around the world."
>
> Jeez! The crap some people dream up. Just where are they going to hold all that "sustainable jet fuel" that allows for 22 hours of flight time? But don't worry, they say that if it runs out of fuel between their "New York to Adelaide Australia" flight, it "will glide." I'd be more concerned about how well it will float.
Well you know if you ignore basic physics and pass the crack pipe around it just might work…

On 12/21/22 6:37 PM, Charles Longley wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 21, 2022 at 7:10:08 PM UTC-6, Mark Mocho wrote:
>> "Aura Aerospace is setting their sights higher, announcing the Ranger with range to fly half way around the world."
>>
>> Jeez! The crap some people dream up. Just where are they going to hold all that "sustainable jet fuel" that allows for 22 hours of flight time? But don't worry, they say that if it runs out of fuel between their "New York to Adelaide Australia" flight, it "will glide." I'd be more concerned about how well it will float.
> Well you know if you ignore basic physics and pass the crack pipe around it just might work…

Maybe they should try a little testing before doing a manned flight. He
went to full throttle and it instantly burst into flames.

Nah...

They should put the promoters and designers on board for the first
flights. If they won't climb aboard, cut the funding.

Dan
5J

On 12/21/22 18:48, kinsell wrote:
> Maybe they should try a little testing before doing a manned flight.  He
> went to full throttle and it instantly burst into flames.

On Thursday, December 22, 2022 at 11:28:21 AM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Nah...
>
> They should put the promoters and designers on board for the first
> flights. If they won't climb aboard, cut the funding.
>
> Dan
> 5J
> On 12/21/22 18:48, kinsell wrote:
> > Maybe they should try a little testing before doing a manned flight. He
> > went to full throttle and it instantly burst into flames.

All a manifestation of too few people taking science class. Too many marketing degrees and too few scientists.

UH

On Wednesday, December 21, 2022 at 8:48:33 PM UTC-5, kinsell wrote:
> On 12/21/22 6:37 PM, Charles Longley wrote:
> > On Wednesday, December 21, 2022 at 7:10:08 PM UTC-6, Mark Mocho wrote:
> >> "Aura Aerospace is setting their sights higher, announcing the Ranger with range to fly half way around the world."
> >>
> >> Jeez! The crap some people dream up. Just where are they going to hold all that "sustainable jet fuel" that allows for 22 hours of flight time? But don't worry, they say that if it runs out of fuel between their "New York to Adelaide Australia" flight, it "will glide." I'd be more concerned about how well it will float.
> > Well you know if you ignore basic physics and pass the crack pipe around it just might work…
> Maybe they should try a little testing before doing a manned flight. He
> went to full throttle and it instantly burst into flames.
Could be the same technology used in motorgliders. OBTP

On 12/22/2022 12:51 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 21, 2022 at 8:48:33 PM UTC-5, kinsell wrote:
>> On 12/21/22 6:37 PM, Charles Longley wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, December 21, 2022 at 7:10:08 PM UTC-6, Mark Mocho wrote:
>>>> "Aura Aerospace is setting their sights higher, announcing the Ranger with range to fly half way around the world."
>>>>
>>>> Jeez! The crap some people dream up. Just where are they going to hold all that "sustainable jet fuel" that allows for 22 hours of flight time? But don't worry, they say that if it runs out of fuel between their "New York to Adelaide Australia" flight, it "will glide." I'd be more concerned about how well it will float.
>>> Well you know if you ignore basic physics and pass the crack pipe around it just might work…
>> Maybe they should try a little testing before doing a manned flight. He
>> went to full throttle and it instantly burst into flames.
> Could be the same technology used in motorgliders. OBTP

They use batteries, electronic controllers, and electric motors; so, yes, it is "the same
technology used in motorgliders". There are huge differences in the battery size, the
complexity of the controller to operate 10+ motors, and the reliability needed for a
primary lift and attitude control system, instead the relatively simple auxiliary
propulsion system needed for a motorglider. It's a lot harder to build a safe helicopter
than a safe self-launcher, regardless of the power choice.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

On Thursday, December 22, 2022 at 11:58:30 AM UTC-5, Hank Nixon wrote:
> On Thursday, December 22, 2022 at 11:28:21 AM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > Nah...
> >
> > They should put the promoters and designers on board for the first
> > flights. If they won't climb aboard, cut the funding.
> >
> > Dan
> > 5J
> > On 12/21/22 18:48, kinsell wrote:
> > > Maybe they should try a little testing before doing a manned flight. He
> > > went to full throttle and it instantly burst into flames.
> All a manifestation of too few people taking science class. Too many marketing degrees and too few scientists.
>
> UH
Well, Hank - that's where the money in US corporations is (unfortunately)! I am an engineer and have worked and still work for large companies - ask me how I know. :-{

Uli
'AS'

> > All a manifestation of too few people taking science class. Too many marketing degrees and too few scientists.
> >
> > UH
> Well, Hank - that's where the money in US corporations is (unfortunately)! I am an engineer and have worked and still work for large companies - ask me how I know. :-{

And if it isn't bad enough, with MBAs taking precedence over engineering, just watch what happens with politicians and unicorn herders thinking they can repeal the Laws of Physics and Thermodynamics.

"Hope is not a strategy."

On 12/21/2022 7:29 PM, kinsell wrote:
> https://dronexl.co/2022/07/28/passenger-drone-evtol-catches-fire/
>
> Having a little trouble with the Guardian, Aura Aerospace is setting
> their sights higher, announcing the Ranger with range to fly half way
> around the world:
>
> https://newatlas.com/aircraft/aura-ranger-long-range-evtol/
>
> Hope it works better than the first one.

How bout this one:
https://www.futureflight.aero/news-article/2022-09-01/beta-evtol-aircraft-battery-catches-fire-while-awaiting-ground-testing?utm_source=Electric+VTOL+News&utm_campaign=dafe86c45f-eVTOL+eNews%2C+Sept+29%2C+2017_COPY_01&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_5d82db6e49-dafe86c45f-50854323

On 12/22/2022 9:26 PM, Mark Mocho wrote:
> "Hope is not a strategy."

That's a small label on DB's panel ;-)

On 12/22/22 7:46 PM, Dave Nadler wrote:
> On 12/21/2022 7:29 PM, kinsell wrote:
>> https://dronexl.co/2022/07/28/passenger-drone-evtol-catches-fire/
>>
>> Having a little trouble with the Guardian, Aura Aerospace is setting
>> their sights higher, announcing the Ranger with range to fly half way
>> around the world:
>>
>> https://newatlas.com/aircraft/aura-ranger-long-range-evtol/
>>
>> Hope it works better than the first one.
>
> How bout this one:
> https://www.futureflight.aero/news-article/2022-09-01/beta-evtol-aircraft-battery-catches-fire-while-awaiting-ground-testing?utm_source=Electric+VTOL+News&utm_campaign=dafe86c45f-eVTOL+eNews%2C+Sept+29%2C+2017_COPY_01&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_5d82db6e49-dafe86c45f-50854323

The Alice thingy mentioned in that article rose from the ashes like a
modern day Phoenix, and recently had an eight minute test flight. Beat
the pants off the three minute flight of the Electro-Beaver. Whatever
happened to the Electro-Beaver, anyway?

However, same day as the Alice test flight, they announced projected
range is now about half of their earlier figures, and they slipped their
schedule by three years. Turns out the miracle advancements in battery
technology haven't been showing up on schedule. Used to be, battery
miracles were always two years away, now it's slipped to three years.

On 12/22/2022 7:59 PM, kinsell wrote:
> On 12/22/22 7:46 PM, Dave Nadler wrote:
>> On 12/21/2022 7:29 PM, kinsell wrote:
>>> https://dronexl.co/2022/07/28/passenger-drone-evtol-catches-fire/
>>>
>>> Having a little trouble with the Guardian, Aura Aerospace is setting their sights
>>> higher, announcing the Ranger with range to fly half way around the world:
>>>
>>> https://newatlas.com/aircraft/aura-ranger-long-range-evtol/
>>>
>>> Hope it works better than the first one.
>>
>> How bout this one:
>> https://www.futureflight.aero/news-article/2022-09-01/beta-evtol-aircraft-battery-catches-fire-while-awaiting-ground-testing?utm_source=Electric+VTOL+News&utm_campaign=dafe86c45f-eVTOL+eNews%2C+Sept+29%2C+2017_COPY_01&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_5d82db6e49-dafe86c45f-50854323
>
> The Alice thingy mentioned in that article rose from the ashes like a modern day Phoenix,
> and recently had an eight minute test flight.  Beat the pants off the three minute flight
> of the Electro-Beaver.  Whatever happened to the Electro-Beaver, anyway?
>
> However, same day as the Alice test flight, they announced projected range is now about
> half of their earlier figures, and they slipped their schedule by three years.  Turns out
> the miracle advancements in battery technology haven't been showing up on schedule.  Used
> to be, battery miracles were always two years away, now it's slipped to three years.

The battery fire doesn't seem like the big news for Beta Technologies: they have orders
for several hundred of it's Alia 250 aircraft from UPS and other companies, and the Alia
250 has made a number of cross-country trips, including one of 5 days and 876 mile.

https://www.futureflight.aero/news-article/2022-12-19/beta-makes-second-cross-country-evtol-flight-charging-infrastructure
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

On 12/23/2022 12:01 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> The battery fire doesn't seem like the big news for Beta Technologies:
> they have orders for several hundred of it's Alia 250 aircraft from UPS
> and other companies, and the Alia 250 has made a number of cross-country
> trips, including one of 5 days and 876 mile.
>
> https://www.futureflight.aero/news-article/2022-12-19/beta-makes-second-cross-country-evtol-flight-charging-infrastructure

While the XC flight is impressive, ask a few questions:

1) the pictures show lift props not installed and area faired;
much less drag (and maybe weight) than expected configuration?

2) What was the weight at which they flew, and payload?

3) Has it done vertical take-offs through transitions? What is the
expected range given high energy use during vertical flight?

On Thursday, December 22, 2022 at 6:26:18 PM UTC-8, Mark Mocho wrote:
> > > All a manifestation of too few people taking science class. Too many marketing degrees and too few scientists.
> > >
> > > UH
> > Well, Hank - that's where the money in US corporations is (unfortunately)! I am an engineer and have worked and still work for large companies - ask me how I know. :-{
> And if it isn't bad enough, with MBAs taking precedence over engineering, just watch what happens with politicians and unicorn herders thinking they can repeal the Laws of Physics and Thermodynamics.
>
> "Hope is not a strategy."

Perhaps a bit of MBA and engineering working together is the way to go. I was there when HP's calculator division went belly up because it was run 100% by engineers and would NOT listen to their MBA's about what the market wanted. The engineers arrogance was palpable in the office. A few years later production was off shore and almost no new devices were developed. HP went on to other products.

On 12/23/2022 6:11 AM, Dave Nadler wrote:
> On 12/23/2022 12:01 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> The battery fire doesn't seem like the big news for Beta Technologies: they have orders
>> for several hundred of it's Alia 250 aircraft from UPS and other companies, and the Alia
>> 250 has made a number of cross-country trips, including one of 5 days and 876 mile.
>>
>> https://www.futureflight.aero/news-article/2022-12-19/beta-makes-second-cross-country-evtol-flight-charging-infrastructure
>
> While the XC flight is impressive, ask a few questions:
>
> 1) the pictures show lift props not installed and area faired;
> much less drag (and maybe weight) than expected configuration?
>
> 2) What was the weight at which they flew, and payload?
>
> 3) Has it done vertical take-offs through transitions? What is the expected range given
> high energy use during vertical flight?
>
The article says the current prototype is configured as CTOL - conventional takeoff and
landing - and will be certified first. The second prototype is configured as a VTOL, and
has made several test flights. It's certification will be about two years after the CTOL,
as I recall.

I didn't see (and didn't look for) any detailed performance numbers. My impression is the
XC was important as a "meet and greet" trip to show people it could operate like a gas
engine aircraft at multiple airports with traffic and ATC, and that there were chargers at
the airports that could recharge it quickly.

Check out their many flights using FlightAware and the tail number N250UT.

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

A B-52 can easily fly with a couple (or more!) engines out. And I know
the stock answer that, should an electric motor fail, the software will
add power to other motors to take up the slack. But more power means
current and more heat, increasing the likelihood, no matter how small,
that something else (another motor, perhaps) will fail.

Can you say, "Cascade"?

I cringe when I see 10 vertical lift propellers.

Dan
5J

On 12/22/22 14:17, Eric Greenwell wrote:

> They use batteries, electronic controllers, and electric motors; so,
> yes, it is "the same technology used in motorgliders". There are huge
> differences in the battery size, the complexity of the controller to
> operate 10+ motors, and the reliability needed for a primary lift and
> attitude control system, instead the relatively simple auxiliary
> propulsion system needed for a motorglider. It's a lot harder to build a
> safe helicopter than a safe self-launcher, regardless of the power choice.

Are we talking about RPN here? Most engineers of my vintage will know
what I'm talking about but I don't want to spell it out for fear of
being called "racist". Again... I never could get used to that. RPN...

Dan
5J

On 12/23/22 07:38, Craig Reinholt wrote:
> On Thursday, December 22, 2022 at 6:26:18 PM UTC-8, Mark Mocho wrote:
>>>> All a manifestation of too few people taking science class. Too many marketing degrees and too few scientists.
>>>>
>>>> UH
>>> Well, Hank - that's where the money in US corporations is (unfortunately)! I am an engineer and have worked and still work for large companies - ask me how I know. :-{
>> And if it isn't bad enough, with MBAs taking precedence over engineering, just watch what happens with politicians and unicorn herders thinking they can repeal the Laws of Physics and Thermodynamics.
>>
>> "Hope is not a strategy."
>
> Perhaps a bit of MBA and engineering working together is the way to go. I was there when HP's calculator division went belly up because it was run 100% by engineers and would NOT listen to their MBA's about what the market wanted. The engineers arrogance was palpable in the office. A few years later production was off shore and almost no new devices were developed. HP went on to other products.

On Friday, December 23, 2022 at 11:15:34 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Are we talking about RPN here? Most engineers of my vintage will know
> what I'm talking about but I don't want to spell it out for fear of
> being called "racist". Again... I never could get used to that. RPN...
>
> Dan
> 5J
> On 12/23/22 07:38, Craig Reinholt wrote:
> > On Thursday, December 22, 2022 at 6:26:18 PM UTC-8, Mark Mocho wrote:
> >>>> All a manifestation of too few people taking science class. Too many marketing degrees and too few scientists.
> >>>>
> >>>> UH
> >>> Well, Hank - that's where the money in US corporations is (unfortunately)! I am an engineer and have worked and still work for large companies - ask me how I know. :-{
> >> And if it isn't bad enough, with MBAs taking precedence over engineering, just watch what happens with politicians and unicorn herders thinking they can repeal the Laws of Physics and Thermodynamics.
> >>
> >> "Hope is not a strategy."
> >
> > Perhaps a bit of MBA and engineering working together is the way to go. I was there when HP's calculator division went belly up because it was run 100% by engineers and would NOT listen to their MBA's about what the market wanted. The engineers arrogance was palpable in the office. A few years later production was off shore and almost no new devices were developed. HP went on to other products.

LOL. No. RPN had nothing to do with it. Product features, demographics of the target markets, and pricing to name just a few factors caused the demise of the calculator division. TI listened to the broad market and HP didn't.

That was the head of Aura (and chief test pilot) on the hotseat in the
video. Maybe the designer(s) got fired after that?

-Dave "I love the smell of hydrogen fluoride in the morning" K

On 12/22/22 9:28 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Nah...
>
> They should put the promoters and designers on board for the first
> flights.  If they won't climb aboard, cut the funding.
>
> Dan
> 5J
>
> On 12/21/22 18:48, kinsell wrote:
>> Maybe they should try a little testing before doing a manned flight.
>> He went to full throttle and it instantly burst into flames.

On Friday, December 23, 2022 at 11:05:31 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
> A B-52 can easily fly with a couple (or more!) engines out.

Speaking about the B-52, HP created a plug-in module for their HP41C calculator to continue nav and "other" functions in case the onboard systems died for some reason.

On 12/23/22 1:37 PM, Craig Reinholt wrote:
> On Friday, December 23, 2022 at 11:15:34 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> Are we talking about RPN here? Most engineers of my vintage will know
>> what I'm talking about but I don't want to spell it out for fear of
>> being called "racist". Again... I never could get used to that. RPN...
>>
>> Dan
>> 5J
>> On 12/23/22 07:38, Craig Reinholt wrote:
>>> On Thursday, December 22, 2022 at 6:26:18 PM UTC-8, Mark Mocho wrote:
>>>>>> All a manifestation of too few people taking science class. Too many marketing degrees and too few scientists.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> UH
>>>>> Well, Hank - that's where the money in US corporations is (unfortunately)! I am an engineer and have worked and still work for large companies - ask me how I know. :-{
>>>> And if it isn't bad enough, with MBAs taking precedence over engineering, just watch what happens with politicians and unicorn herders thinking they can repeal the Laws of Physics and Thermodynamics.
>>>>
>>>> "Hope is not a strategy."
>>>
>>> Perhaps a bit of MBA and engineering working together is the way to go. I was there when HP's calculator division went belly up because it was run 100% by engineers and would NOT listen to their MBA's about what the market wanted. The engineers arrogance was palpable in the office. A few years later production was off shore and almost no new devices were developed. HP went on to other products.
>
> LOL. No. RPN had nothing to do with it. Product features, demographics of the target markets, and pricing to name just a few factors caused the demise of the calculator division. TI listened to the broad market and HP didn't.

The HP35 came out at $400, and was revolutionary at the time. It sold
well, even though the cost would be equivalent to over $2700 today.

Calculators rapidly became a commodity consumer item, and HP never had
the cost structure in place to compete effectively in that market.

On Friday, December 23, 2022 at 12:48:31 PM UTC-8, Craig Reinholt wrote:
> On Friday, December 23, 2022 at 11:05:31 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > A B-52 can easily fly with a couple (or more!) engines out.

>>>Speaking about the B-52, HP created a plug-in module for their HP41C calculator to continue nav and "other" functions in case the onboard systems died for some reason. <<<

Now that I ponder that 40+ year old memory, I believe the entire 41C was reworked and it wasn't just a module.

On 12/23/22 1:55 PM, Craig Reinholt wrote:
> On Friday, December 23, 2022 at 12:48:31 PM UTC-8, Craig Reinholt wrote:
>> On Friday, December 23, 2022 at 11:05:31 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
>>> A B-52 can easily fly with a couple (or more!) engines out.
>
>>>> Speaking about the B-52, HP created a plug-in module for their HP41C calculator to continue nav and "other" functions in case the onboard systems died for some reason. <<<
>
> Now that I ponder that 40+ year old memory, I believe the entire 41C was reworked and it wasn't just a module.

https://blogs.brown.edu/ladd/2015/11/30/flight-critical-calculator/