Old Bob, The Purist has come up with my resolution for the new year.
Resolution #1- Be kind to motor glider pilots
Resolution #2- They cannot help being motor glider pilots
Resolution #3- Give those guys something to shoot for during the Geritol Classic at SLGP
Does anyone really think that I can adhere to the first two resolutions? Old Bob, The Purist

On Friday, December 30, 2022 at 2:36:14 PM UTC-8, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> Old Bob, The Purist has come up with my resolution for the new year.
> Resolution #1- Be kind to motor glider pilots
> Resolution #2- They cannot help being motor glider pilots
> Resolution #3- Give those guys something to shoot for during the Geritol Classic at SLGP
> Does anyone really think that I can adhere to the first two resolutions? Old Bob, The Purist
No. In fact if you had posted that tomorrow, it would have been self violating. I'd suggest an alternative:

Resolution #1: Get at least 10 cross country flights in a motorglider so you would have even the slightest idea what you are talking about.
Resolution #2: After accomplishing #1, come back and critique motorgliders based on some knowledge, rather than abject ignorance.

How do those sound? My bet is you will not accomplish either of those sets of resolutions.

On 12/30/2022 2:36 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> Old Bob, The Purist has come up with my resolution for the new year.
> Resolution #1- Be kind to motor glider pilots
> Resolution #2- They cannot help being motor glider pilots
> Resolution #3- Give those guys something to shoot for during the Geritol Classic at SLGP
> Does anyone really think that I can adhere to the first two resolutions? Old Bob, The Purist

1) Be kind to all pilots, but especially tow pilots, as they are a critical part of the
launching system for the majority of pilots.
2) Most towed pilots can not help being towed pilots; unfortunately, it takes a lot of
money to purchase one. Not really a resolution, though, is it?
3) What will you give the Seniors pilots to shoot for? Cash prizes, coolers full of beer,
premium ramp "Motorglider Only" tie-down spaces at Hibiscus?

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

On Saturday, December 31, 2022 at 12:21:48 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> On 12/30/2022 2:36 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Old Bob, The Purist has come up with my resolution for the new year.
> > Resolution #1- Be kind to motor glider pilots
> > Resolution #2- They cannot help being motor glider pilots
> > Resolution #3- Give those guys something to shoot for during the Geritol Classic at SLGP
> > Does anyone really think that I can adhere to the first two resolutions? Old Bob, The Purist
> 1) Be kind to all pilots, but especially tow pilots, as they are a critical part of the
> launching system for the majority of pilots.
> 2) Most towed pilots can not help being towed pilots; unfortunately, it takes a lot of
> money to purchase one. Not really a resolution, though, is it?
> 3) What will you give the Seniors pilots to shoot for? Cash prizes, coolers full of beer,
> premium ramp "Motorglider Only" tie-down spaces at Hibiscus?
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - USA
> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
Eric, I just completed my last day of towing for 2022, I am happy to report that I surpassed the 1300 tow mark for the year and even more satisfied that I towed several new glider pilots on their first solo. The best part of the year was watching the youth members go solo and taking pictures after they landed, watching the tears of joy flow from their parents eyes and realizing that their child had accomplished something that will remain with them for the remainder of their life.
I am always kind to motorglider pilots, I just know what they are and what they are not! Now about the Seniors Geritol Classic, I have already made an impact on the old boys, I noticed on OLC that a few of them are already flying triangles instead of following HWY 27 South and North. Not only have I had an influence on their task, I have several nice gifts from Eileen and I that we would like to award, I promise you that the overall winner and the PURIST winner will be very happy with the TCSC recognition of their accomplishment. Old Bob, The Purist

Gentlemen,

I do not post often to RAS by personal choice. I do read the summary each day. I would like everyone to know Bob Youngblood is a stand up person and his club has done a large amount for bringing new (younger) pilots to the community. His work to increase the number of gliders used by the club rivals almost any club in the US. He does this with money out of his pocket. We joke a lot about motorgliders, but I can assure you, all of this is in jest. So, my New Year resolution is to continue to rib Old Bob and to take his ribbing in the vain it is intended, as banter between friends. I would encourage everyone to visit his club and I think you would see him in a different light. Lets all lighten up in 2023.

Sincerely,
Rich Owen
Seminole-Lake Gliderport

On Sunday, January 1, 2023 at 2:38:48 PM UTC-5, Richard Owen wrote:
> Gentlemen,
>
> I do not post often to RAS by personal choice. I do read the summary each day. I would like everyone to know Bob Youngblood is a stand up person and his club has done a large amount for bringing new (younger) pilots to the community. His work to increase the number of gliders used by the club rivals almost any club in the US. He does this with money out of his pocket. We joke a lot about motorgliders, but I can assure you, all of this is in jest. So, my New Year resolution is to continue to rib Old Bob and to take his ribbing in the vain it is intended, as banter between friends. I would encourage everyone to visit his club and I think you would see him in a different light. Lets all lighten up in 2023.
>
> Sincerely,
> Rich Owen
> Seminole-Lake Gliderport
+1
UH

On Sunday, January 1, 2023 at 11:38:48 AM UTC-8, Richard Owen wrote:
> Gentlemen,
>
> I do not post often to RAS by personal choice. I do read the summary each day. I would like everyone to know Bob Youngblood is a stand up person and his club has done a large amount for bringing new (younger) pilots to the community. His work to increase the number of gliders used by the club rivals almost any club in the US. He does this with money out of his pocket. We joke a lot about motorgliders, but I can assure you, all of this is in jest. So, my New Year resolution is to continue to rib Old Bob and to take his ribbing in the vain it is intended, as banter between friends. I would encourage everyone to visit his club and I think you would see him in a different light. Lets all lighten up in 2023.
>
> Sincerely,
> Rich Owen
> Seminole-Lake Gliderport

COME ON, Rich! When I spoke the truth about who exactly owns Seminole you threatened to sue me - PottyMouth is just running off at the mouth with lies about us motorglider owners and you call it "banter!"

Tom

On Sunday, January 1, 2023 at 11:10:31 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
> On Sunday, January 1, 2023 at 11:38:48 AM UTC-8, Richard Owen wrote:
> > Gentlemen,
> >
> > I do not post often to RAS by personal choice. I do read the summary each day. I would like everyone to know Bob Youngblood is a stand up person and his club has done a large amount for bringing new (younger) pilots to the community. His work to increase the number of gliders used by the club rivals almost any club in the US. He does this with money out of his pocket. We joke a lot about motorgliders, but I can assure you, all of this is in jest. So, my New Year resolution is to continue to rib Old Bob and to take his ribbing in the vain it is intended, as banter between friends. I would encourage everyone to visit his club and I think you would see him in a different light. Lets all lighten up in 2023.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> > Rich Owen
> > Seminole-Lake Gliderport
> COME ON, Rich! When I spoke the truth about who exactly owns Seminole you threatened to sue me - PottyMouth is just running off at the mouth with lies about us motorglider owners and you call it "banter!"
>
> Tom
Maybe you should change your CN from 2G to DSM-5, it would be more identifiable and better reflect your state of mind. You seem to be extremely sensitive about my opinion on motorgliders, the only thing I can say is that we have a difference of opinion. OBTP

On Saturday, December 31, 2022 at 11:52:12 AM UTC-5, jfitch wrote:
> On Friday, December 30, 2022 at 2:36:14 PM UTC-8, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Old Bob, The Purist has come up with my resolution for the new year.
> > Resolution #1- Be kind to motor glider pilots
> > Resolution #2- They cannot help being motor glider pilots
> > Resolution #3- Give those guys something to shoot for during the Geritol Classic at SLGP
> > Does anyone really think that I can adhere to the first two resolutions? Old Bob, The Purist
> No. In fact if you had posted that tomorrow, it would have been self violating. I'd suggest an alternative:
>
> Resolution #1: Get at least 10 cross country flights in a motorglider so you would have even the slightest idea what you are talking about.
> Resolution #2: After accomplishing #1, come back and critique motorgliders based on some knowledge, rather than abject ignorance.
>
> How do those sound? My bet is you will not accomplish either of those sets of resolutions.
Fitch, if I made ten cross country flights in a motorglider it would be 8 more than you have made in the last five years according to OLC, please correct me if I am wrong. Looks like the abject ignorance is part of your playbook.
If a soaring pilot was to take ten cross country flights in a pure glider vs a motorglider it would be much more challenging, in my way of thinking the pure glider is much more challenging and dangerous than any motorglider. Getting in a motorglider and soaring for say 300 k and greater and then having to start the engine to return back to the departure point is a failure.
I have no problem with self launch motorgliders, I might just own one someday, Eileen and I could roll out on our runway and takeoff without assistance. There is nothing that I could find fault with that type of flight. R does that and it is interesting, scores his flights then calls me to rattle my chain, it is all in fun and games. You also are invited to Vero, you may leave a better person. Your favorite purist, Old Bob, The Purist

Tom (2G),

Since you have brought up my "threatening to sue you" twice in past posts, I would like to let everyone know the context. You made several claims about the owner of Seminole=Lake Gliderport and some of those were false. Two clients who were scheduled for a Private Initial course and a Commercial Add-on course cancelled their training with us based solely on the comments they read on Rec Aviation Soaring. That resulted in a loss of about $7,000 of revenue to the company. We did not advertise this fact to the glider community because everyone makes a mistake. We gave you the benefit of the doubt after we spoke and offered you the opportunity to speak with our lawyer. You ceased your false comments regarding Seminole-Lake and we were satisfied with your silence. I hold no malice to you but I hope you find some joy in this new year. Sorry to take up the valuable time of those glider pilots who want to learn something new on this site.

Best Regards,
Rich Owen
Seminole=Lake Gliderport

On Monday, January 2, 2023 at 5:50:30 PM UTC-5, Richard Owen wrote:
> Tom (2G),
>
> Since you have brought up my "threatening to sue you" twice in past posts, I would like to let everyone know the context. You made several claims about the owner of Seminole=Lake Gliderport and some of those were false. Two clients who were scheduled for a Private Initial course and a Commercial Add-on course cancelled their training with us based solely on the comments they read on Rec Aviation Soaring. That resulted in a loss of about $7,000 of revenue to the company. We did not advertise this fact to the glider community because everyone makes a mistake. We gave you the benefit of the doubt after we spoke and offered you the opportunity to speak with our lawyer. You ceased your false comments regarding Seminole-Lake and we were satisfied with your silence. I hold no malice to you but I hope you find some joy in this new year. Sorry to take up the valuable time of those glider pilots who want to learn something new on this site.
>
> Best Regards,
> Rich Owen
> Seminole=Lake Gliderport

Guess that pretty much tells it like it is! OBTP

On Monday, January 2, 2023 at 2:50:30 PM UTC-8, Richard Owen wrote:
> Tom (2G),
>
> Since you have brought up my "threatening to sue you" twice in past posts, I would like to let everyone know the context. You made several claims about the owner of Seminole=Lake Gliderport and some of those were false. Two clients who were scheduled for a Private Initial course and a Commercial Add-on course cancelled their training with us based solely on the comments they read on Rec Aviation Soaring. That resulted in a loss of about $7,000 of revenue to the company. We did not advertise this fact to the glider community because everyone makes a mistake. We gave you the benefit of the doubt after we spoke and offered you the opportunity to speak with our lawyer. You ceased your false comments regarding Seminole-Lake and we were satisfied with your silence. I hold no malice to you but I hope you find some joy in this new year. Sorry to take up the valuable time of those glider pilots who want to learn something new on this site.
>
> Best Regards,
> Rich Owen
> Seminole=Lake Gliderport

Rich, don't blame me for people who questioned what was going on at Seminole in regards to the questionable purchase by a foreigner that had been CONVICTED of crimes and was being sought by international authorities. That is just a fact. The detail you questioned was a very small point immersed in the totality of the facts. So be it. Per our agreement, I will NOT discuss the details of this sordid affair - anyone with two ounces of brains (which leaves out PottyMouth) can find it on their own. But, PLEASE, don't describe PottyMouth as a "standup" individual: he LIES about many of us in the soaring community, and takes PLEASURE in doing so. Such a person has a warped mind and needs professional help.

Tom

On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 2:13:58 AM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
> On Monday, January 2, 2023 at 2:50:30 PM UTC-8, Richard Owen wrote:
> > Tom (2G),
> >
> > Since you have brought up my "threatening to sue you" twice in past posts, I would like to let everyone know the context. You made several claims about the owner of Seminole=Lake Gliderport and some of those were false. Two clients who were scheduled for a Private Initial course and a Commercial Add-on course cancelled their training with us based solely on the comments they read on Rec Aviation Soaring. That resulted in a loss of about $7,000 of revenue to the company. We did not advertise this fact to the glider community because everyone makes a mistake. We gave you the benefit of the doubt after we spoke and offered you the opportunity to speak with our lawyer. You ceased your false comments regarding Seminole-Lake and we were satisfied with your silence. I hold no malice to you but I hope you find some joy in this new year. Sorry to take up the valuable time of those glider pilots who want to learn something new on this site.
> >
> > Best Regards,
> > Rich Owen
> > Seminole=Lake Gliderport
> Rich, don't blame me for people who questioned what was going on at Seminole in regards to the questionable purchase by a foreigner that had been CONVICTED of crimes and was being sought by international authorities. That is just a fact. The detail you questioned was a very small point immersed in the totality of the facts. So be it. Per our agreement, I will NOT discuss the details of this sordid affair - anyone with two ounces of brains (which leaves out PottyMouth) can find it on their own. But, PLEASE, don't describe PottyMouth as a "standup" individual: he LIES about many of us in the soaring community, and takes PLEASURE in doing so. Such a person has a warped mind and needs professional help.
>
> Tom
DSM-5, you better go directly to the community mental health center and get medication, pretty soon you will be biting the props on your motorglider and unlike Amy the dog no one will come to your assistance. Your favorite purist glider pilot , OBTP.

On 1/2/2023 12:07 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, December 31, 2022 at 11:52:12 AM UTC-5, jfitch wrote:
>> On Friday, December 30, 2022 at 2:36:14 PM UTC-8, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> Old Bob, The Purist has come up with my resolution for the new year.
>>> Resolution #1- Be kind to motor glider pilots
>>> Resolution #2- They cannot help being motor glider pilots
>>> Resolution #3- Give those guys something to shoot for during the Geritol Classic at SLGP
>>> Does anyone really think that I can adhere to the first two resolutions? Old Bob, The Purist
>> No. In fact if you had posted that tomorrow, it would have been self violating. I'd suggest an alternative:
>>
>> Resolution #1: Get at least 10 cross country flights in a motorglider so you would have even the slightest idea what you are talking about.
>> Resolution #2: After accomplishing #1, come back and critique motorgliders based on some knowledge, rather than abject ignorance.
>>
>> How do those sound? My bet is you will not accomplish either of those sets of resolutions.
> Fitch, if I made ten cross country flights in a motorglider it would be 8 more than you have made in the last five years according to OLC, please correct me if I am wrong. Looks like the abject ignorance is part of your playbook.
> If a soaring pilot was to take ten cross country flights in a pure glider vs a motorglider it would be much more challenging, in my way of thinking the pure glider is much more challenging and dangerous than any motorglider. Getting in a motorglider and soaring for say 300 k and greater and then having to start the engine to return back to the departure point is a failure.
> I have no problem with self launch motorgliders, I might just own one someday, Eileen and I could roll out on our runway and takeoff without assistance. There is nothing that I could find fault with that type of flight. R does that and it is interesting, scores his flights then calls me to rattle my chain, it is all in fun and games. You also are invited to Vero, you may leave a better person. Your favorite purist, Old Bob, The Purist

A lot to unpack. Starting with the safety part:

" in my way of thinking the pure glider is much more challenging and dangerous than any
motorglider."

I don't know how Old Bod decided a pure glider is much more dangerous than a motorglider;
in fact, I (and most MG pilots) think the towed glider is safer, because self-launching in
a motorglider is more complicated the taking a tow. And, unlike Old Bob, most of us have
thousands of hours in motorized AND towed gliders.

A towed glider pilot just gets in the tow line, waits his turn, follows the towplane, and
gets off in a thermal. His total exposure to the launch system is about 5 minutes. The MG
pilot has much more to do: he has to ensure the motor system is maintained and working
properly during the entire season, taxi safely to the launch point, determine it's safe to
take off, fly the glider and manage the engine, and finally do the shut-down and retraction.

A successful self-retrieve avoids the potential for damage or injury during an off-airport
landing, but managing the engine start exposes the pilot to potential mistakes and
distractions the towed glider pilot doesn't have. A common one is trying too long to save
the flight, then failing the restart and subsequent landing because there isn't enough
altitude left.

Please, please, anyone thinking of getting a motorglider DO NOT listen to Old Bob, because
he is not experienced enough with self-launchers give your good guidance, instead, read my
"A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" (link in the signature line) and talk to
actual motorglider pilots.

And now the "challenge" part: Old Bob should be able to understand that it's not the
glider type that determines the challenge, it's the pilot that determines the challenge.
Old Bob picks "soaring home" for his challenge, and his task is selected to provide the
amount of difficulty he wants. But, that's just Old Bob's choice, and it's not what makes
a pilot a Purist! Other pilots pick different challenges, like contests, record flying,
OLC points, or just getting as much out of a day as is possible. These challenges markedly
increase the chances of needing a retrieve, but they are just as "Purist" as the challenge
Old Bob has selected.

So remember, motorglider pilots get a motorglider for convenience and accept the increased
hazard they present. They get one because it provides more flights in more places, more
challenges than they could get with a towed glider. I hope Old Bob and Eileen get one
ASAP, so they can have even more fun, more adventures than they have now.

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 3:22:55 PM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> On 1/2/2023 12:07 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, December 31, 2022 at 11:52:12 AM UTC-5, jfitch wrote:
> >> On Friday, December 30, 2022 at 2:36:14 PM UTC-8, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>> Old Bob, The Purist has come up with my resolution for the new year.
> >>> Resolution #1- Be kind to motor glider pilots
> >>> Resolution #2- They cannot help being motor glider pilots
> >>> Resolution #3- Give those guys something to shoot for during the Geritol Classic at SLGP
> >>> Does anyone really think that I can adhere to the first two resolutions? Old Bob, The Purist
> >> No. In fact if you had posted that tomorrow, it would have been self violating. I'd suggest an alternative:
> >>
> >> Resolution #1: Get at least 10 cross country flights in a motorglider so you would have even the slightest idea what you are talking about.
> >> Resolution #2: After accomplishing #1, come back and critique motorgliders based on some knowledge, rather than abject ignorance.
> >>
> >> How do those sound? My bet is you will not accomplish either of those sets of resolutions.
> > Fitch, if I made ten cross country flights in a motorglider it would be 8 more than you have made in the last five years according to OLC, please correct me if I am wrong. Looks like the abject ignorance is part of your playbook.
> > If a soaring pilot was to take ten cross country flights in a pure glider vs a motorglider it would be much more challenging, in my way of thinking the pure glider is much more challenging and dangerous than any motorglider. Getting in a motorglider and soaring for say 300 k and greater and then having to start the engine to return back to the departure point is a failure.
> > I have no problem with self launch motorgliders, I might just own one someday, Eileen and I could roll out on our runway and takeoff without assistance. There is nothing that I could find fault with that type of flight. R does that and it is interesting, scores his flights then calls me to rattle my chain, it is all in fun and games. You also are invited to Vero, you may leave a better person. Your favorite purist, Old Bob, The Purist
> A lot to unpack. Starting with the safety part:
> " in my way of thinking the pure glider is much more challenging and dangerous than any
> motorglider."
> I don't know how Old Bod decided a pure glider is much more dangerous than a motorglider;
> in fact, I (and most MG pilots) think the towed glider is safer, because self-launching in
> a motorglider is more complicated the taking a tow. And, unlike Old Bob, most of us have
> thousands of hours in motorized AND towed gliders.
>
> A towed glider pilot just gets in the tow line, waits his turn, follows the towplane, and
> gets off in a thermal. His total exposure to the launch system is about 5 minutes. The MG
> pilot has much more to do: he has to ensure the motor system is maintained and working
> properly during the entire season, taxi safely to the launch point, determine it's safe to
> take off, fly the glider and manage the engine, and finally do the shut-down and retraction.
>
> A successful self-retrieve avoids the potential for damage or injury during an off-airport
> landing, but managing the engine start exposes the pilot to potential mistakes and
> distractions the towed glider pilot doesn't have. A common one is trying too long to save
> the flight, then failing the restart and subsequent landing because there isn't enough
> altitude left.
>
> Please, please, anyone thinking of getting a motorglider DO NOT listen to Old Bob, because
> he is not experienced enough with self-launchers give your good guidance, instead, read my
> "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" (link in the signature line) and talk to
> actual motorglider pilots.
>
> And now the "challenge" part: Old Bob should be able to understand that it's not the
> glider type that determines the challenge, it's the pilot that determines the challenge.
> Old Bob picks "soaring home" for his challenge, and his task is selected to provide the
> amount of difficulty he wants. But, that's just Old Bob's choice, and it's not what makes
> a pilot a Purist! Other pilots pick different challenges, like contests, record flying,
> OLC points, or just getting as much out of a day as is possible. These challenges markedly
> increase the chances of needing a retrieve, but they are just as "Purist" as the challenge
> Old Bob has selected.
>
> So remember, motorglider pilots get a motorglider for convenience and accept the increased
> hazard they present. They get one because it provides more flights in more places, more
> challenges than they could get with a towed glider. I hope Old Bob and Eileen get one
> ASAP, so they can have even more fun, more adventures than they have now.
> --
> Eric Greenwell - USA
> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Obviously PottyMouth is pissed off at motorglider owners because they don't need his services, and he derives his self-worth from other glider pilots who beg him for tows. PottyMouth should seek professional help for this psychiatric disorder which clearly is in the megalomaniac category. You see this expressed over and over by the obvious pride he shows when reiterating the number of tows he has done in the last day, week, month and year. His actual ability in soaring is, at best, that of an advanced beginner as represented by the flights posted on OLC. PottyMouth is a strange case that I have not seen before in the soaring community. Hopefully he will be the last.

Tom

On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 6:22:55 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> On 1/2/2023 12:07 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, December 31, 2022 at 11:52:12 AM UTC-5, jfitch wrote:
> >> On Friday, December 30, 2022 at 2:36:14 PM UTC-8, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>> Old Bob, The Purist has come up with my resolution for the new year.
> >>> Resolution #1- Be kind to motor glider pilots
> >>> Resolution #2- They cannot help being motor glider pilots
> >>> Resolution #3- Give those guys something to shoot for during the Geritol Classic at SLGP
> >>> Does anyone really think that I can adhere to the first two resolutions? Old Bob, The Purist
> >> No. In fact if you had posted that tomorrow, it would have been self violating. I'd suggest an alternative:
> >>
> >> Resolution #1: Get at least 10 cross country flights in a motorglider so you would have even the slightest idea what you are talking about.
> >> Resolution #2: After accomplishing #1, come back and critique motorgliders based on some knowledge, rather than abject ignorance.
> >>
> >> How do those sound? My bet is you will not accomplish either of those sets of resolutions.
> > Fitch, if I made ten cross country flights in a motorglider it would be 8 more than you have made in the last five years according to OLC, please correct me if I am wrong. Looks like the abject ignorance is part of your playbook.
> > If a soaring pilot was to take ten cross country flights in a pure glider vs a motorglider it would be much more challenging, in my way of thinking the pure glider is much more challenging and dangerous than any motorglider. Getting in a motorglider and soaring for say 300 k and greater and then having to start the engine to return back to the departure point is a failure.
> > I have no problem with self launch motorgliders, I might just own one someday, Eileen and I could roll out on our runway and takeoff without assistance. There is nothing that I could find fault with that type of flight. R does that and it is interesting, scores his flights then calls me to rattle my chain, it is all in fun and games. You also are invited to Vero, you may leave a better person. Your favorite purist, Old Bob, The Purist
> A lot to unpack. Starting with the safety part:
> " in my way of thinking the pure glider is much more challenging and dangerous than any
> motorglider."
> I don't know how Old Bod decided a pure glider is much more dangerous than a motorglider;
> in fact, I (and most MG pilots) think the towed glider is safer, because self-launching in
> a motorglider is more complicated the taking a tow. And, unlike Old Bob, most of us have
> thousands of hours in motorized AND towed gliders.
>
> A towed glider pilot just gets in the tow line, waits his turn, follows the towplane, and
> gets off in a thermal. His total exposure to the launch system is about 5 minutes. The MG
> pilot has much more to do: he has to ensure the motor system is maintained and working
> properly during the entire season, taxi safely to the launch point, determine it's safe to
> take off, fly the glider and manage the engine, and finally do the shut-down and retraction.
>
> A successful self-retrieve avoids the potential for damage or injury during an off-airport
> landing, but managing the engine start exposes the pilot to potential mistakes and
> distractions the towed glider pilot doesn't have. A common one is trying too long to save
> the flight, then failing the restart and subsequent landing because there isn't enough
> altitude left.
>
> Please, please, anyone thinking of getting a motorglider DO NOT listen to Old Bob, because
> he is not experienced enough with self-launchers give your good guidance, instead, read my
> "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" (link in the signature line) and talk to
> actual motorglider pilots.
>
> And now the "challenge" part: Old Bob should be able to understand that it's not the
> glider type that determines the challenge, it's the pilot that determines the challenge.
> Old Bob picks "soaring home" for his challenge, and his task is selected to provide the
> amount of difficulty he wants. But, that's just Old Bob's choice, and it's not what makes
> a pilot a Purist! Other pilots pick different challenges, like contests, record flying,
> OLC points, or just getting as much out of a day as is possible. These challenges markedly
> increase the chances of needing a retrieve, but they are just as "Purist" as the challenge
> Old Bob has selected.
>
> So remember, motorglider pilots get a motorglider for convenience and accept the increased
> hazard they present. They get one because it provides more flights in more places, more
> challenges than they could get with a towed glider. I hope Old Bob and Eileen get one
> ASAP, so they can have even more fun, more adventures than they have now.
> --
> Eric Greenwell - USA
> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
Good morning Eric hope all is well and calm out in that part of the country, here in Florida things are great and the weather is nice. Now about your comment referencing managing a motor vs managing a tow, I cannot believe that you wrote that, you should re evaluate that scenario, five minutes on tow is certainly more difficult than monitoring an engine.
I am no stranger to challenging flights, even the motorglider gentlemen at Seminole will confirm that, I do believe that the IAN flight was a bit of a challenge, say you? The sailplane world has certainly changed, no longer are the days of risk assessment with pure flight, motorgliders have certainly changed that paradigm.
Well, you probably will not see Old Bob or Eileen with a motorglider, I say probably because things could change and I might be right back at my home flying off our strip and therefore a self launch would probably be the platform of choice. Eileen and I could tow each other, but a ground crew would be an added benefit. Old Bob, The Purist

On 1/6/2023 4:47 AM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 6:22:55 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> On 1/2/2023 12:07 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Saturday, December 31, 2022 at 11:52:12 AM UTC-5, jfitch wrote:
>>>> On Friday, December 30, 2022 at 2:36:14 PM UTC-8, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>> Old Bob, The Purist has come up with my resolution for the new year.
>>>>> Resolution #1- Be kind to motor glider pilots
>>>>> Resolution #2- They cannot help being motor glider pilots
>>>>> Resolution #3- Give those guys something to shoot for during the Geritol Classic at SLGP
>>>>> Does anyone really think that I can adhere to the first two resolutions? Old Bob, The Purist
>>>> No. In fact if you had posted that tomorrow, it would have been self violating. I'd suggest an alternative:
>>>>
>>>> Resolution #1: Get at least 10 cross country flights in a motorglider so you would have even the slightest idea what you are talking about.
>>>> Resolution #2: After accomplishing #1, come back and critique motorgliders based on some knowledge, rather than abject ignorance.
>>>>
>>>> How do those sound? My bet is you will not accomplish either of those sets of resolutions.
>>> Fitch, if I made ten cross country flights in a motorglider it would be 8 more than you have made in the last five years according to OLC, please correct me if I am wrong. Looks like the abject ignorance is part of your playbook.
>>> If a soaring pilot was to take ten cross country flights in a pure glider vs a motorglider it would be much more challenging, in my way of thinking the pure glider is much more challenging and dangerous than any motorglider. Getting in a motorglider and soaring for say 300 k and greater and then having to start the engine to return back to the departure point is a failure.
>>> I have no problem with self launch motorgliders, I might just own one someday, Eileen and I could roll out on our runway and takeoff without assistance. There is nothing that I could find fault with that type of flight. R does that and it is interesting, scores his flights then calls me to rattle my chain, it is all in fun and games. You also are invited to Vero, you may leave a better person. Your favorite purist, Old Bob, The Purist
>> A lot to unpack. Starting with the safety part:
>> " in my way of thinking the pure glider is much more challenging and dangerous than any
>> motorglider."
>> I don't know how Old Bod decided a pure glider is much more dangerous than a motorglider;
>> in fact, I (and most MG pilots) think the towed glider is safer, because self-launching in
>> a motorglider is more complicated the taking a tow. And, unlike Old Bob, most of us have
>> thousands of hours in motorized AND towed gliders.
>>
>> A towed glider pilot just gets in the tow line, waits his turn, follows the towplane, and
>> gets off in a thermal. His total exposure to the launch system is about 5 minutes. The MG
>> pilot has much more to do: he has to ensure the motor system is maintained and working
>> properly during the entire season, taxi safely to the launch point, determine it's safe to
>> take off, fly the glider and manage the engine, and finally do the shut-down and retraction.
>>
>> A successful self-retrieve avoids the potential for damage or injury during an off-airport
>> landing, but managing the engine start exposes the pilot to potential mistakes and
>> distractions the towed glider pilot doesn't have. A common one is trying too long to save
>> the flight, then failing the restart and subsequent landing because there isn't enough
>> altitude left.
>>
>> Please, please, anyone thinking of getting a motorglider DO NOT listen to Old Bob, because
>> he is not experienced enough with self-launchers give your good guidance, instead, read my
>> "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" (link in the signature line) and talk to
>> actual motorglider pilots.
>>
>> And now the "challenge" part: Old Bob should be able to understand that it's not the
>> glider type that determines the challenge, it's the pilot that determines the challenge.
>> Old Bob picks "soaring home" for his challenge, and his task is selected to provide the
>> amount of difficulty he wants. But, that's just Old Bob's choice, and it's not what makes
>> a pilot a Purist! Other pilots pick different challenges, like contests, record flying,
>> OLC points, or just getting as much out of a day as is possible. These challenges markedly
>> increase the chances of needing a retrieve, but they are just as "Purist" as the challenge
>> Old Bob has selected.
>>
>> So remember, motorglider pilots get a motorglider for convenience and accept the increased
>> hazard they present. They get one because it provides more flights in more places, more
>> challenges than they could get with a towed glider. I hope Old Bob and Eileen get one
>> ASAP, so they can have even more fun, more adventures than they have now.
>> --
>> Eric Greenwell - USA
>> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
>> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

Now about your comment referencing managing a motor vs managing a tow, I cannot believe
that you wrote that, you should re evaluate that scenario,

Perhaps your aren't paying attention to the situation: you are trying to explain towed vs
self-launch to someone that has made 2000+ towed launches and 800+ self-launches, while
you have made no self-launches.

five minutes on tow is certainly more difficult than monitoring an engine.

There is much more to it than "monitoring an engine". Here's an important difference: a
self-launcher under power is not the same as a glider being towed. The mast gives it a
very high thrust line, requiring back stick from normal gliding flight, and a nose high
attitude because it's climbing under it's own power. A power loss, even just the power
reduction to idle after entering lift, requires a significant change in attitude - and
then there's the retraction procedure while trying to thermal without endangering yourself
or anyone else. When towed, a glider is in nearly the same attitude it would be in free
flight, and the transition to free flight takes just a few seconds after the tow rope is
released.

And, as a tow pilot, you really should understand you are doing far more than "monitoring
the engine" while you are towing: you are the one doing the "seeing and voiding", and
preparing for emergencies at every point in the tow. The towed glider pilot is basically
just following the tow plane, but self-launch pilot has all those responsibilities you
have as a tow pilot.

Haven't we had this conversation already? It sure sounds familiar as I write it.

I strongly recommend you get your self-launch endorsement ASAP, so you have a better
understanding of self-launchers, and be more likely to aid (instead of unintentionally
mislead) pilots interested in them. Get it in a real self-launcher, like an ASK21Mi, or
ASG32Mi, and not a touring motorglider. Here's a link to the Auxiliary-powered Sailplane
Associates training page, where you will find a list of motorglider instructors;
unfortunately, very few have access to an ASK21Mi or equivalent.

https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/licensing-and-training

On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 1:11:25 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> On 1/6/2023 4:47 AM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 6:22:55 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> >> On 1/2/2023 12:07 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>> On Saturday, December 31, 2022 at 11:52:12 AM UTC-5, jfitch wrote:
> >>>> On Friday, December 30, 2022 at 2:36:14 PM UTC-8, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>> Old Bob, The Purist has come up with my resolution for the new year..
> >>>>> Resolution #1- Be kind to motor glider pilots
> >>>>> Resolution #2- They cannot help being motor glider pilots
> >>>>> Resolution #3- Give those guys something to shoot for during the Geritol Classic at SLGP
> >>>>> Does anyone really think that I can adhere to the first two resolutions? Old Bob, The Purist
> >>>> No. In fact if you had posted that tomorrow, it would have been self violating. I'd suggest an alternative:
> >>>>
> >>>> Resolution #1: Get at least 10 cross country flights in a motorglider so you would have even the slightest idea what you are talking about.
> >>>> Resolution #2: After accomplishing #1, come back and critique motorgliders based on some knowledge, rather than abject ignorance.
> >>>>
> >>>> How do those sound? My bet is you will not accomplish either of those sets of resolutions.
> >>> Fitch, if I made ten cross country flights in a motorglider it would be 8 more than you have made in the last five years according to OLC, please correct me if I am wrong. Looks like the abject ignorance is part of your playbook.
> >>> If a soaring pilot was to take ten cross country flights in a pure glider vs a motorglider it would be much more challenging, in my way of thinking the pure glider is much more challenging and dangerous than any motorglider. Getting in a motorglider and soaring for say 300 k and greater and then having to start the engine to return back to the departure point is a failure.
> >>> I have no problem with self launch motorgliders, I might just own one someday, Eileen and I could roll out on our runway and takeoff without assistance. There is nothing that I could find fault with that type of flight. R does that and it is interesting, scores his flights then calls me to rattle my chain, it is all in fun and games. You also are invited to Vero, you may leave a better person. Your favorite purist, Old Bob, The Purist
> >> A lot to unpack. Starting with the safety part:
> >> " in my way of thinking the pure glider is much more challenging and dangerous than any
> >> motorglider."
> >> I don't know how Old Bod decided a pure glider is much more dangerous than a motorglider;
> >> in fact, I (and most MG pilots) think the towed glider is safer, because self-launching in
> >> a motorglider is more complicated the taking a tow. And, unlike Old Bob, most of us have
> >> thousands of hours in motorized AND towed gliders.
> >>
> >> A towed glider pilot just gets in the tow line, waits his turn, follows the towplane, and
> >> gets off in a thermal. His total exposure to the launch system is about 5 minutes. The MG
> >> pilot has much more to do: he has to ensure the motor system is maintained and working
> >> properly during the entire season, taxi safely to the launch point, determine it's safe to
> >> take off, fly the glider and manage the engine, and finally do the shut-down and retraction.
> >>
> >> A successful self-retrieve avoids the potential for damage or injury during an off-airport
> >> landing, but managing the engine start exposes the pilot to potential mistakes and
> >> distractions the towed glider pilot doesn't have. A common one is trying too long to save
> >> the flight, then failing the restart and subsequent landing because there isn't enough
> >> altitude left.
> >>
> >> Please, please, anyone thinking of getting a motorglider DO NOT listen to Old Bob, because
> >> he is not experienced enough with self-launchers give your good guidance, instead, read my
> >> "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" (link in the signature line) and talk to
> >> actual motorglider pilots.
> >>
> >> And now the "challenge" part: Old Bob should be able to understand that it's not the
> >> glider type that determines the challenge, it's the pilot that determines the challenge.
> >> Old Bob picks "soaring home" for his challenge, and his task is selected to provide the
> >> amount of difficulty he wants. But, that's just Old Bob's choice, and it's not what makes
> >> a pilot a Purist! Other pilots pick different challenges, like contests, record flying,
> >> OLC points, or just getting as much out of a day as is possible. These challenges markedly
> >> increase the chances of needing a retrieve, but they are just as "Purist" as the challenge
> >> Old Bob has selected.
> >>
> >> So remember, motorglider pilots get a motorglider for convenience and accept the increased
> >> hazard they present. They get one because it provides more flights in more places, more
> >> challenges than they could get with a towed glider. I hope Old Bob and Eileen get one
> >> ASAP, so they can have even more fun, more adventures than they have now.
> >> --
> >> Eric Greenwell - USA
> >> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> >> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
> Now about your comment referencing managing a motor vs managing a tow, I cannot believe
> that you wrote that, you should re evaluate that scenario,
> Perhaps your aren't paying attention to the situation: you are trying to explain towed vs
> self-launch to someone that has made 2000+ towed launches and 800+ self-launches, while
> you have made no self-launches.
> five minutes on tow is certainly more difficult than monitoring an engine..
> There is much more to it than "monitoring an engine". Here's an important difference: a
> self-launcher under power is not the same as a glider being towed. The mast gives it a
> very high thrust line, requiring back stick from normal gliding flight, and a nose high
> attitude because it's climbing under it's own power. A power loss, even just the power
> reduction to idle after entering lift, requires a significant change in attitude - and
> then there's the retraction procedure while trying to thermal without endangering yourself
> or anyone else. When towed, a glider is in nearly the same attitude it would be in free
> flight, and the transition to free flight takes just a few seconds after the tow rope is
> released.
>
> And, as a tow pilot, you really should understand you are doing far more than "monitoring
> the engine" while you are towing: you are the one doing the "seeing and voiding", and
> preparing for emergencies at every point in the tow. The towed glider pilot is basically
> just following the tow plane, but self-launch pilot has all those responsibilities you
> have as a tow pilot.
>
> Haven't we had this conversation already? It sure sounds familiar as I write it.
>
> I strongly recommend you get your self-launch endorsement ASAP, so you have a better
> understanding of self-launchers, and be more likely to aid (instead of unintentionally
> mislead) pilots interested in them. Get it in a real self-launcher, like an ASK21Mi, or
> ASG32Mi, and not a touring motorglider. Here's a link to the Auxiliary-powered Sailplane
> Associates training page, where you will find a list of motorglider instructors;
> unfortunately, very few have access to an ASK21Mi or equivalent.
>
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/licensing-and-training
Eric, I could be mistaken, yet that hardly ever happens, I do not need an endorsement to fly a motorglider, I flew motorgliders prior to the endorsement requirements. There is a chance that the insurance would require one, but the FAA requirement is satisfied. Old Bob, The Purist

On 1/6/2023 11:02 AM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 1:11:25 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> On 1/6/2023 4:47 AM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 6:22:55 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>>>> On 1/2/2023 12:07 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>> On Saturday, December 31, 2022 at 11:52:12 AM UTC-5, jfitch wrote:
>>>>>> On Friday, December 30, 2022 at 2:36:14 PM UTC-8, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>> Old Bob, The Purist has come up with my resolution for the new year.
>>>>>>> Resolution #1- Be kind to motor glider pilots
>>>>>>> Resolution #2- They cannot help being motor glider pilots
>>>>>>> Resolution #3- Give those guys something to shoot for during the Geritol Classic at SLGP
>>>>>>> Does anyone really think that I can adhere to the first two resolutions? Old Bob, The Purist
>>>>>> No. In fact if you had posted that tomorrow, it would have been self violating. I'd suggest an alternative:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Resolution #1: Get at least 10 cross country flights in a motorglider so you would have even the slightest idea what you are talking about.
>>>>>> Resolution #2: After accomplishing #1, come back and critique motorgliders based on some knowledge, rather than abject ignorance.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How do those sound? My bet is you will not accomplish either of those sets of resolutions.
>>>>> Fitch, if I made ten cross country flights in a motorglider it would be 8 more than you have made in the last five years according to OLC, please correct me if I am wrong. Looks like the abject ignorance is part of your playbook.
>>>>> If a soaring pilot was to take ten cross country flights in a pure glider vs a motorglider it would be much more challenging, in my way of thinking the pure glider is much more challenging and dangerous than any motorglider. Getting in a motorglider and soaring for say 300 k and greater and then having to start the engine to return back to the departure point is a failure.
>>>>> I have no problem with self launch motorgliders, I might just own one someday, Eileen and I could roll out on our runway and takeoff without assistance. There is nothing that I could find fault with that type of flight. R does that and it is interesting, scores his flights then calls me to rattle my chain, it is all in fun and games. You also are invited to Vero, you may leave a better person. Your favorite purist, Old Bob, The Purist
>>>> A lot to unpack. Starting with the safety part:
>>>> " in my way of thinking the pure glider is much more challenging and dangerous than any
>>>> motorglider."
>>>> I don't know how Old Bod decided a pure glider is much more dangerous than a motorglider;
>>>> in fact, I (and most MG pilots) think the towed glider is safer, because self-launching in
>>>> a motorglider is more complicated the taking a tow. And, unlike Old Bob, most of us have
>>>> thousands of hours in motorized AND towed gliders.
>>>>
>>>> A towed glider pilot just gets in the tow line, waits his turn, follows the towplane, and
>>>> gets off in a thermal. His total exposure to the launch system is about 5 minutes. The MG
>>>> pilot has much more to do: he has to ensure the motor system is maintained and working
>>>> properly during the entire season, taxi safely to the launch point, determine it's safe to
>>>> take off, fly the glider and manage the engine, and finally do the shut-down and retraction.
>>>>
>>>> A successful self-retrieve avoids the potential for damage or injury during an off-airport
>>>> landing, but managing the engine start exposes the pilot to potential mistakes and
>>>> distractions the towed glider pilot doesn't have. A common one is trying too long to save
>>>> the flight, then failing the restart and subsequent landing because there isn't enough
>>>> altitude left.
>>>>
>>>> Please, please, anyone thinking of getting a motorglider DO NOT listen to Old Bob, because
>>>> he is not experienced enough with self-launchers give your good guidance, instead, read my
>>>> "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" (link in the signature line) and talk to
>>>> actual motorglider pilots.
>>>>
>>>> And now the "challenge" part: Old Bob should be able to understand that it's not the
>>>> glider type that determines the challenge, it's the pilot that determines the challenge.
>>>> Old Bob picks "soaring home" for his challenge, and his task is selected to provide the
>>>> amount of difficulty he wants. But, that's just Old Bob's choice, and it's not what makes
>>>> a pilot a Purist! Other pilots pick different challenges, like contests, record flying,
>>>> OLC points, or just getting as much out of a day as is possible. These challenges markedly
>>>> increase the chances of needing a retrieve, but they are just as "Purist" as the challenge
>>>> Old Bob has selected.
>>>>
>>>> So remember, motorglider pilots get a motorglider for convenience and accept the increased
>>>> hazard they present. They get one because it provides more flights in more places, more
>>>> challenges than they could get with a towed glider. I hope Old Bob and Eileen get one
>>>> ASAP, so they can have even more fun, more adventures than they have now.
>>>> --
>>>> Eric Greenwell - USA
>>>> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
>>>> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
>> Now about your comment referencing managing a motor vs managing a tow, I cannot believe
>> that you wrote that, you should re evaluate that scenario,
>> Perhaps your aren't paying attention to the situation: you are trying to explain towed vs
>> self-launch to someone that has made 2000+ towed launches and 800+ self-launches, while
>> you have made no self-launches.
>> five minutes on tow is certainly more difficult than monitoring an engine.
>> There is much more to it than "monitoring an engine". Here's an important difference: a
>> self-launcher under power is not the same as a glider being towed. The mast gives it a
>> very high thrust line, requiring back stick from normal gliding flight, and a nose high
>> attitude because it's climbing under it's own power. A power loss, even just the power
>> reduction to idle after entering lift, requires a significant change in attitude - and
>> then there's the retraction procedure while trying to thermal without endangering yourself
>> or anyone else. When towed, a glider is in nearly the same attitude it would be in free
>> flight, and the transition to free flight takes just a few seconds after the tow rope is
>> released.
>>
>> And, as a tow pilot, you really should understand you are doing far more than "monitoring
>> the engine" while you are towing: you are the one doing the "seeing and voiding", and
>> preparing for emergencies at every point in the tow. The towed glider pilot is basically
>> just following the tow plane, but self-launch pilot has all those responsibilities you
>> have as a tow pilot.
>>
>> Haven't we had this conversation already? It sure sounds familiar as I write it.
>>
>> I strongly recommend you get your self-launch endorsement ASAP, so you have a better
>> understanding of self-launchers, and be more likely to aid (instead of unintentionally
>> mislead) pilots interested in them. Get it in a real self-launcher, like an ASK21Mi, or
>> ASG32Mi, and not a touring motorglider. Here's a link to the Auxiliary-powered Sailplane
>> Associates training page, where you will find a list of motorglider instructors;
>> unfortunately, very few have access to an ASK21Mi or equivalent.
>>
>> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/licensing-and-training
> Eric, I could be mistaken, yet that hardly ever happens, I do not need an endorsement to fly a motorglider, I flew motorgliders prior to the endorsement requirements. There is a chance that the insurance would require one, but the FAA requirement is satisfied. Old Bob, The Purist

Do it for the knowledge, not the rating, and do it in a ASK2Mi mast style glider.

On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 2:43:05 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> On 1/6/2023 11:02 AM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 1:11:25 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> >> On 1/6/2023 4:47 AM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>> On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 6:22:55 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> >>>> On 1/2/2023 12:07 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>> On Saturday, December 31, 2022 at 11:52:12 AM UTC-5, jfitch wrote:
> >>>>>> On Friday, December 30, 2022 at 2:36:14 PM UTC-8, youngbl...@gmail..com wrote:
> >>>>>>> Old Bob, The Purist has come up with my resolution for the new year.
> >>>>>>> Resolution #1- Be kind to motor glider pilots
> >>>>>>> Resolution #2- They cannot help being motor glider pilots
> >>>>>>> Resolution #3- Give those guys something to shoot for during the Geritol Classic at SLGP
> >>>>>>> Does anyone really think that I can adhere to the first two resolutions? Old Bob, The Purist
> >>>>>> No. In fact if you had posted that tomorrow, it would have been self violating. I'd suggest an alternative:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Resolution #1: Get at least 10 cross country flights in a motorglider so you would have even the slightest idea what you are talking about.
> >>>>>> Resolution #2: After accomplishing #1, come back and critique motorgliders based on some knowledge, rather than abject ignorance.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> How do those sound? My bet is you will not accomplish either of those sets of resolutions.
> >>>>> Fitch, if I made ten cross country flights in a motorglider it would be 8 more than you have made in the last five years according to OLC, please correct me if I am wrong. Looks like the abject ignorance is part of your playbook.
> >>>>> If a soaring pilot was to take ten cross country flights in a pure glider vs a motorglider it would be much more challenging, in my way of thinking the pure glider is much more challenging and dangerous than any motorglider. Getting in a motorglider and soaring for say 300 k and greater and then having to start the engine to return back to the departure point is a failure.
> >>>>> I have no problem with self launch motorgliders, I might just own one someday, Eileen and I could roll out on our runway and takeoff without assistance. There is nothing that I could find fault with that type of flight. R does that and it is interesting, scores his flights then calls me to rattle my chain, it is all in fun and games. You also are invited to Vero, you may leave a better person. Your favorite purist, Old Bob, The Purist
> >>>> A lot to unpack. Starting with the safety part:
> >>>> " in my way of thinking the pure glider is much more challenging and dangerous than any
> >>>> motorglider."
> >>>> I don't know how Old Bod decided a pure glider is much more dangerous than a motorglider;
> >>>> in fact, I (and most MG pilots) think the towed glider is safer, because self-launching in
> >>>> a motorglider is more complicated the taking a tow. And, unlike Old Bob, most of us have
> >>>> thousands of hours in motorized AND towed gliders.
> >>>>
> >>>> A towed glider pilot just gets in the tow line, waits his turn, follows the towplane, and
> >>>> gets off in a thermal. His total exposure to the launch system is about 5 minutes. The MG
> >>>> pilot has much more to do: he has to ensure the motor system is maintained and working
> >>>> properly during the entire season, taxi safely to the launch point, determine it's safe to
> >>>> take off, fly the glider and manage the engine, and finally do the shut-down and retraction.
> >>>>
> >>>> A successful self-retrieve avoids the potential for damage or injury during an off-airport
> >>>> landing, but managing the engine start exposes the pilot to potential mistakes and
> >>>> distractions the towed glider pilot doesn't have. A common one is trying too long to save
> >>>> the flight, then failing the restart and subsequent landing because there isn't enough
> >>>> altitude left.
> >>>>
> >>>> Please, please, anyone thinking of getting a motorglider DO NOT listen to Old Bob, because
> >>>> he is not experienced enough with self-launchers give your good guidance, instead, read my
> >>>> "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" (link in the signature line) and talk to
> >>>> actual motorglider pilots.
> >>>>
> >>>> And now the "challenge" part: Old Bob should be able to understand that it's not the
> >>>> glider type that determines the challenge, it's the pilot that determines the challenge.
> >>>> Old Bob picks "soaring home" for his challenge, and his task is selected to provide the
> >>>> amount of difficulty he wants. But, that's just Old Bob's choice, and it's not what makes
> >>>> a pilot a Purist! Other pilots pick different challenges, like contests, record flying,
> >>>> OLC points, or just getting as much out of a day as is possible. These challenges markedly
> >>>> increase the chances of needing a retrieve, but they are just as "Purist" as the challenge
> >>>> Old Bob has selected.
> >>>>
> >>>> So remember, motorglider pilots get a motorglider for convenience and accept the increased
> >>>> hazard they present. They get one because it provides more flights in more places, more
> >>>> challenges than they could get with a towed glider. I hope Old Bob and Eileen get one
> >>>> ASAP, so they can have even more fun, more adventures than they have now.
> >>>> --
> >>>> Eric Greenwell - USA
> >>>> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> >>>> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
> >> Now about your comment referencing managing a motor vs managing a tow, I cannot believe
> >> that you wrote that, you should re evaluate that scenario,
> >> Perhaps your aren't paying attention to the situation: you are trying to explain towed vs
> >> self-launch to someone that has made 2000+ towed launches and 800+ self-launches, while
> >> you have made no self-launches.
> >> five minutes on tow is certainly more difficult than monitoring an engine.
> >> There is much more to it than "monitoring an engine". Here's an important difference: a
> >> self-launcher under power is not the same as a glider being towed. The mast gives it a
> >> very high thrust line, requiring back stick from normal gliding flight, and a nose high
> >> attitude because it's climbing under it's own power. A power loss, even just the power
> >> reduction to idle after entering lift, requires a significant change in attitude - and
> >> then there's the retraction procedure while trying to thermal without endangering yourself
> >> or anyone else. When towed, a glider is in nearly the same attitude it would be in free
> >> flight, and the transition to free flight takes just a few seconds after the tow rope is
> >> released.
> >>
> >> And, as a tow pilot, you really should understand you are doing far more than "monitoring
> >> the engine" while you are towing: you are the one doing the "seeing and voiding", and
> >> preparing for emergencies at every point in the tow. The towed glider pilot is basically
> >> just following the tow plane, but self-launch pilot has all those responsibilities you
> >> have as a tow pilot.
> >>
> >> Haven't we had this conversation already? It sure sounds familiar as I write it.
> >>
> >> I strongly recommend you get your self-launch endorsement ASAP, so you have a better
> >> understanding of self-launchers, and be more likely to aid (instead of unintentionally
> >> mislead) pilots interested in them. Get it in a real self-launcher, like an ASK21Mi, or
> >> ASG32Mi, and not a touring motorglider. Here's a link to the Auxiliary-powered Sailplane
> >> Associates training page, where you will find a list of motorglider instructors;
> >> unfortunately, very few have access to an ASK21Mi or equivalent.
> >>
> >> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/licensing-and-training
> > Eric, I could be mistaken, yet that hardly ever happens, I do not need an endorsement to fly a motorglider, I flew motorgliders prior to the endorsement requirements. There is a chance that the insurance would require one, but the FAA requirement is satisfied. Old Bob, The Purist
> Do it for the knowledge, not the rating, and do it in a ASK2Mi mast style glider.
Eric, there is a good chance that I was flying motorgliders long before you, Herbie, DSM-5, Bum, Fitch, and many more. You should check around and you might be surprised. Eileen also is qualified in motorgliders, gliders, twins, tail draggers, and flew the KA350 for testing purposes, don't sell the old girl short, has made 1k parachute jumps, runs marathons, flew gliders like the ASW20L, Ventus, Mosquito, LS3A, Std Cirrus, PIK20D, LS4, Open Cirrus, two different motorgliders, ASK21, Twin Astir, KA6, ASW24, and ASW27B,and probably a few more, oh, she also flew a DC3 for a while. So don't sell the old gal short, and when you finally meet her ask her about motorgliders, you probably will think I am a priest. Old Bob, The Purist

On 1/6/2023 1:40 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 2:43:05 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> On 1/6/2023 11:02 AM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
....
>>>> I strongly recommend you get your self-launch endorsement ASAP, so you have a better
>>>> understanding of self-launchers, and be more likely to aid (instead of unintentionally
>>>> mislead) pilots interested in them. Get it in a real self-launcher, like an ASK21Mi, or
>>>> ASG32Mi, and not a touring motorglider. Here's a link to the Auxiliary-powered Sailplane
>>>> Associates training page, where you will find a list of motorglider instructors;
>>>> unfortunately, very few have access to an ASK21Mi or equivalent.
>>>>
>>>> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/licensing-and-training
>>> Eric, I could be mistaken, yet that hardly ever happens, I do not need an endorsement to fly a motorglider, I flew motorgliders prior to the endorsement requirements. There is a chance that the insurance would require one, but the FAA requirement is satisfied. Old Bob, The Purist
>> Do it for the knowledge, not the rating, and do it in a ASK2Mi mast style glider.
> Eric, there is a good chance that I was flying motorgliders long before you, Herbie, DSM-5, Bum, Fitch, and many more. You should check around and you might be surprised. Eileen also is qualified in motorgliders, gliders, twins, tail draggers, and flew the KA350 for testing purposes, don't sell the old girl short, has made 1k parachute jumps, runs marathons, flew gliders like the ASW20L, Ventus, Mosquito, LS3A, Std Cirrus, PIK20D, LS4, Open Cirrus, two different motorgliders, ASK21, Twin Astir, KA6, ASW24, and ASW27B,and probably a few more, oh, she also flew a DC3 for a while. So don't sell the old gal short, and when you finally meet her ask her about motorgliders, you probably will think I am a priest. Old Bob, The Purist

I am looking forward to meeting Eileen, but she isn't the one posting about MGs on RAS. My
remarks are directed to you, because you sometimes say things could mislead a pilot that
is not a MG pilot, or has limited experience MGs. I still hope will you answer my
questions, so I have some idea of why you believe MGs are safer than towed gliders.

1) have you read my Guide?
2) what motorgliders have you self-launched, and how many self-launches in each type?

On Monday, January 2, 2023 at 5:50:30 PM UTC-5, Richard Owen wrote:
> Tom (2G),
>
> Since you have brought up my "threatening to sue you" twice in past posts, I would like to let everyone know the context. You made several claims about the owner of Seminole=Lake Gliderport and some of those were false. Two clients who were scheduled for a Private Initial course and a Commercial Add-on course cancelled their training with us based solely on the comments they read on Rec Aviation Soaring. That resulted in a loss of about $7,000 of revenue to the company. We did not advertise this fact to the glider community because everyone makes a mistake. We gave you the benefit of the doubt after we spoke and offered you the opportunity to speak with our lawyer. You ceased your false comments regarding Seminole-Lake and we were satisfied with your silence. I hold no malice to you but I hope you find some joy in this new year. Sorry to take up the valuable time of those glider pilots who want to learn something new on this site.
>
> Best Regards,
> Rich Owen
> Seminole=Lake Gliderport

Rich, here is where the confusion began. You posted that Mihai was “out of the country looking for new business opportunities.” BUT if you google him you found Mihai in the slammer in The Cayman Islands, a quasi-independent country known best for its role in offshore banking. Perhaps Mihai was working undercover and investigating the prison system in the Caymans with an eye towards developing a privately operated system of incarceration which could be corporately operated and a money maker? We all know that private enterprise can run things more efficiently than government.

I’m sure we have all read “The Curious Case of Mihai Tanjala.” If you haven’t you owe it to yourself to do so and it’s in English. Is it truthful and accurate? Decide for yourself. I found many articles written in Romanian and while Google Translate isn’t 100 percent accurate it gives you a good idea as to what is going on.

If you read Case: 15-13276 Date Filed: 03/23/2016 Mihai Tanjala Vs U.S. Attorney General you will gain further insight into the reason for his departure. I realize we have all had accusations made about us which were untrue. Sometimes these things can disrupt our lives but the satisfaction of encountering your accuser in public and watching them squirm and depart the pattern is quite satisfying. Been there at a Bob Evans Restaurant in Leesburg.

You are a good soldier Rich, I fully realize that without SLGP you have a very expensive toy and no reasonably local playground on which to play.

I truly enjoyed my time at SLGP, first as a commercial add on student, volunteering to chase rope, hook up and launch gliders and later flying some 7000 tows. I spent some 10K dollars on instruction, tows and glider rentals while I was there, a bargain compared to what helicopter flying lessons cost. I have to tell you I found helicopters more of a challenge but I did manage to pass my check ride even at 68 years of age. Speaking of flying tow, OBTP makes the finest tow planes I have ever seen with the most appropriate release handles and release systems.

Fly safely everyone,

Walt Connelly

On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 6:34:44 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> On 1/6/2023 1:40 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 2:43:05 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> >> On 1/6/2023 11:02 AM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> ...
> >>>> I strongly recommend you get your self-launch endorsement ASAP, so you have a better
> >>>> understanding of self-launchers, and be more likely to aid (instead of unintentionally
> >>>> mislead) pilots interested in them. Get it in a real self-launcher, like an ASK21Mi, or
> >>>> ASG32Mi, and not a touring motorglider. Here's a link to the Auxiliary-powered Sailplane
> >>>> Associates training page, where you will find a list of motorglider instructors;
> >>>> unfortunately, very few have access to an ASK21Mi or equivalent.
> >>>>
> >>>> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/licensing-and-training
> >>> Eric, I could be mistaken, yet that hardly ever happens, I do not need an endorsement to fly a motorglider, I flew motorgliders prior to the endorsement requirements. There is a chance that the insurance would require one, but the FAA requirement is satisfied. Old Bob, The Purist
> >> Do it for the knowledge, not the rating, and do it in a ASK2Mi mast style glider.
> > Eric, there is a good chance that I was flying motorgliders long before you, Herbie, DSM-5, Bum, Fitch, and many more. You should check around and you might be surprised. Eileen also is qualified in motorgliders, gliders, twins, tail draggers, and flew the KA350 for testing purposes, don't sell the old girl short, has made 1k parachute jumps, runs marathons, flew gliders like the ASW20L, Ventus, Mosquito, LS3A, Std Cirrus, PIK20D, LS4, Open Cirrus, two different motorgliders, ASK21, Twin Astir, KA6, ASW24, and ASW27B,and probably a few more, oh, she also flew a DC3 for a while. So don't sell the old gal short, and when you finally meet her ask her about motorgliders, you probably will think I am a priest. Old Bob, The Purist
> I am looking forward to meeting Eileen, but she isn't the one posting about MGs on RAS. My
> remarks are directed to you, because you sometimes say things could mislead a pilot that
> is not a MG pilot, or has limited experience MGs. I still hope will you answer my
> questions, so I have some idea of why you believe MGs are safer than towed gliders.
>
> 1) have you read my Guide?
> 2) what motorgliders have you self-launched, and how many self-launches in each type?
Eric, I have not read your guide, I am busy writing the new guide to glider flying called, "Fly Like A Purist". My motorglider experience ranges probably much more diverse than you recent motorglider pilots. The first motorglider I flew was Fornier RF4 in 1977 and the last was a Phoenix in 2022, and there is more in between those dates. yes, I have more flights in a motorglider than you may think. I find it comical that you compare self launch to being towed, there is no comparison, I self launch every single day in the Towpecker, AKA Pawnee.. Eric, do you have a power rating and have you ever towed??? OBTP

On 1/7/2023 3:01 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 6:34:44 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> On 1/6/2023 1:40 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 2:43:05 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>>>> On 1/6/2023 11:02 AM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> ...
>>>>>> I strongly recommend you get your self-launch endorsement ASAP, so you have a better
>>>>>> understanding of self-launchers, and be more likely to aid (instead of unintentionally
>>>>>> mislead) pilots interested in them. Get it in a real self-launcher, like an ASK21Mi, or
>>>>>> ASG32Mi, and not a touring motorglider. Here's a link to the Auxiliary-powered Sailplane
>>>>>> Associates training page, where you will find a list of motorglider instructors;
>>>>>> unfortunately, very few have access to an ASK21Mi or equivalent.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/licensing-and-training
>>>>> Eric, I could be mistaken, yet that hardly ever happens, I do not need an endorsement to fly a motorglider, I flew motorgliders prior to the endorsement requirements. There is a chance that the insurance would require one, but the FAA requirement is satisfied. Old Bob, The Purist
>>>> Do it for the knowledge, not the rating, and do it in a ASK2Mi mast style glider.
>>> Eric, there is a good chance that I was flying motorgliders long before you, Herbie, DSM-5, Bum, Fitch, and many more. You should check around and you might be surprised. Eileen also is qualified in motorgliders, gliders, twins, tail draggers, and flew the KA350 for testing purposes, don't sell the old girl short, has made 1k parachute jumps, runs marathons, flew gliders like the ASW20L, Ventus, Mosquito, LS3A, Std Cirrus, PIK20D, LS4, Open Cirrus, two different motorgliders, ASK21, Twin Astir, KA6, ASW24, and ASW27B,and probably a few more, oh, she also flew a DC3 for a while. So don't sell the old gal short, and when you finally meet her ask her about motorgliders, you probably will think I am a priest. Old Bob, The Purist
>> I am looking forward to meeting Eileen, but she isn't the one posting about MGs on RAS. My
>> remarks are directed to you, because you sometimes say things could mislead a pilot that
>> is not a MG pilot, or has limited experience MGs. I still hope will you answer my
>> questions, so I have some idea of why you believe MGs are safer than towed gliders.
>>
>> 1) have you read my Guide?
>> 2) what motorgliders have you self-launched, and how many self-launches in each type?
> Eric, I have not read your guide, I am busy writing the new guide to glider flying called, "Fly Like A Purist". My motorglider experience ranges probably much more diverse than you recent motorglider pilots. The first motorglider I flew was Fornier RF4 in 1977 and the last was a Phoenix in 2022, and there is more in between those dates. yes, I have more flights in a motorglider than you may think. I find it comical that you compare self launch to being towed, there is no comparison, I self launch every single day in the Towpecker, AKA Pawnee.. Eric, do you have a power rating and have you ever towed??? OBTP

Experience in an RF4 and Phoenix does not prepare you to safely fly a mast style
self-launcher. I have 800+ hours in my Phoenix, so I have the experience to back up that
opinion. What mast style self-launcher have you flown? How many launches? How many hours?
And when?

I do have a power rating, but I have never towed. My Phoenix has a Tost hook and can
legally tow up to 1320 lbs. If there was a local need for tows, I would consider acquiring
the skill, but there isn't any call for it here. It's not something a pilot should dabble
in, but either do enough to be good and current at it, or just fly gliders instead. But,
you know that: it's what you do, and apparently do well.

Please, read the Guide! That will add significantly to your self-launching knowledge, and
we won't need these long threads about them. I can hear bodies tipping over in their
chairs, lying on floor, hoping Daryl will post something to distract them.

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications

On Saturday, January 7, 2023 at 7:41:31 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> On 1/7/2023 3:01 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 6:34:44 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> >> On 1/6/2023 1:40 PM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>> On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 2:43:05 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> >>>> On 1/6/2023 11:02 AM, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> ...
> >>>>>> I strongly recommend you get your self-launch endorsement ASAP, so you have a better
> >>>>>> understanding of self-launchers, and be more likely to aid (instead of unintentionally
> >>>>>> mislead) pilots interested in them. Get it in a real self-launcher, like an ASK21Mi, or
> >>>>>> ASG32Mi, and not a touring motorglider. Here's a link to the Auxiliary-powered Sailplane
> >>>>>> Associates training page, where you will find a list of motorglider instructors;
> >>>>>> unfortunately, very few have access to an ASK21Mi or equivalent.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/licensing-and-training
> >>>>> Eric, I could be mistaken, yet that hardly ever happens, I do not need an endorsement to fly a motorglider, I flew motorgliders prior to the endorsement requirements. There is a chance that the insurance would require one, but the FAA requirement is satisfied. Old Bob, The Purist
> >>>> Do it for the knowledge, not the rating, and do it in a ASK2Mi mast style glider.
> >>> Eric, there is a good chance that I was flying motorgliders long before you, Herbie, DSM-5, Bum, Fitch, and many more. You should check around and you might be surprised. Eileen also is qualified in motorgliders, gliders, twins, tail draggers, and flew the KA350 for testing purposes, don't sell the old girl short, has made 1k parachute jumps, runs marathons, flew gliders like the ASW20L, Ventus, Mosquito, LS3A, Std Cirrus, PIK20D, LS4, Open Cirrus, two different motorgliders, ASK21, Twin Astir, KA6, ASW24, and ASW27B,and probably a few more, oh, she also flew a DC3 for a while. So don't sell the old gal short, and when you finally meet her ask her about motorgliders, you probably will think I am a priest. Old Bob, The Purist
> >> I am looking forward to meeting Eileen, but she isn't the one posting about MGs on RAS. My
> >> remarks are directed to you, because you sometimes say things could mislead a pilot that
> >> is not a MG pilot, or has limited experience MGs. I still hope will you answer my
> >> questions, so I have some idea of why you believe MGs are safer than towed gliders.
> >>
> >> 1) have you read my Guide?
> >> 2) what motorgliders have you self-launched, and how many self-launches in each type?
> > Eric, I have not read your guide, I am busy writing the new guide to glider flying called, "Fly Like A Purist". My motorglider experience ranges probably much more diverse than you recent motorglider pilots. The first motorglider I flew was Fornier RF4 in 1977 and the last was a Phoenix in 2022, and there is more in between those dates. yes, I have more flights in a motorglider than you may think. I find it comical that you compare self launch to being towed, there is no comparison, I self launch every single day in the Towpecker, AKA Pawnee.. Eric, do you have a power rating and have you ever towed??? OBTP
> Experience in an RF4 and Phoenix does not prepare you to safely fly a mast style
> self-launcher. I have 800+ hours in my Phoenix, so I have the experience to back up that
> opinion. What mast style self-launcher have you flown? How many launches? How many hours?
> And when?
>
> I do have a power rating, but I have never towed. My Phoenix has a Tost hook and can
> legally tow up to 1320 lbs. If there was a local need for tows, I would consider acquiring
> the skill, but there isn't any call for it here. It's not something a pilot should dabble
> in, but either do enough to be good and current at it, or just fly gliders instead. But,
> you know that: it's what you do, and apparently do well.
>
> Please, read the Guide! That will add significantly to your self-launching knowledge, and
> we won't need these long threads about them. I can hear bodies tipping over in their
> chairs, lying on floor, hoping Daryl will post something to distract them..
> --
> Eric Greenwell - USA
> - "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications
Eric, forget about towing with the Phoenix, it will not get the job done to any degree of satisfaction. You should get a better understanding from the tow pilots seat. OBTP