There are a bunch of Bluetooth Panic Buttons that link to a phone and
can silently call 911 (or preprogrammed numbers) for help, providing
your GPS coordinates so they know where you are. These are typically
pendants you wear, or buttons you attach to the wall or under a desk.

Earlier this week there was an incident where a criminal approached a
vehicle, brandished a gun, to rob a guy, demanding his wallet and
advising the victim to keep his hands visible and to not reach for his
cell phone.

What's needed is a panic button for a car that can be foot activated,
using a switch like used to be used to activate high-beam headlights.

Probably it would be too late by the time police responded to such a
call, but not necessarily impossible.

sms,

> What's needed is a panic button for a car that can be foot activated,
> using a switch like used to be used to activate high-beam headlights.

(Hot)glue some plywood to the button of a hand-operated one so its easy to
hit with your foot ?

If you have no problem with wielding a soldering iron you could also attach
a pair of wires to the button inside the device and lead them anywhere you
like.

Regards,
Rudy Wieser

In article <tetd3t$11d5$1@gioia.aioe.org>, R.Wieser
<address@not.available> wrote:

> > What's needed is a panic button for a car that can be foot activated,
> > using a switch like used to be used to activate high-beam headlights.
>
> (Hot)glue some plywood to the button of a hand-operated one so its easy to
> hit with your foot ?
>
> If you have no problem with wielding a soldering iron you could also attach
> a pair of wires to the button inside the device and lead them anywhere you
> like.

where would you connect the pair of wires so that activating a switch
will initiate an emergency call that sends precise location info and
the reason for the call? hint: it needs more than a soldering iron.

sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:

> There are a bunch of Bluetooth Panic Buttons that link to a phone and
> can silently call 911 (or preprogrammed numbers) for help, providing
> your GPS coordinates so they know where you are. These are typically
> pendants you wear, or buttons you attach to the wall or under a desk.
>
> Earlier this week there was an incident where a criminal approached a
> vehicle, brandished a gun, to rob a guy, demanding his wallet and
> advising the victim to keep his hands visible and to not reach for his
> cell phone.
>
> What's needed is a panic button for a car that can be foot activated,
> using a switch like used to be used to activate high-beam headlights.
>
> Probably it would be too late by the time police responded to such a
> call, but not necessarily impossible.

Some states are constitional carry. For others get a permit for
concealed carry. If lethal defense is outside your acceptance, and you
prefer a slower effect to defend, you could carry pepper spray (not gel
or foam, not a combo with tear gas, but spray or fog - and if ever used
then toss it to replace with a new one).

A panic button tells cops where to find your corpse.

On 2022-09-02 11:11, VanguardLH wrote:
> sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
>
>> There are a bunch of Bluetooth Panic Buttons that link to a phone and
>> can silently call 911 (or preprogrammed numbers) for help, providing
>> your GPS coordinates so they know where you are. These are typically
>> pendants you wear, or buttons you attach to the wall or under a desk.
>>
>> Earlier this week there was an incident where a criminal approached a
>> vehicle, brandished a gun, to rob a guy, demanding his wallet and
>> advising the victim to keep his hands visible and to not reach for his
>> cell phone.
>>
>> What's needed is a panic button for a car that can be foot activated,
>> using a switch like used to be used to activate high-beam headlights.
>>
>> Probably it would be too late by the time police responded to such a
>> call, but not necessarily impossible.
>
> Some states are constitional carry. For others get a permit for
> concealed carry. If lethal defense is outside your acceptance, and you
> prefer a slower effect to defend, you could carry pepper spray (not gel
> or foam, not a combo with tear gas, but spray or fog - and if ever used
> then toss it to replace with a new one).
>
> A panic button tells cops where to find your corpse.

With all due respect, you are an idiot.

You think going for a weapon when you are facing an armed assailant has
already approached you and has told you to keep your hands visible is a
viable survival strategy?

Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:

> On 2022-09-02 11:11, VanguardLH wrote:
>> sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> There are a bunch of Bluetooth Panic Buttons that link to a phone and
>>> can silently call 911 (or preprogrammed numbers) for help, providing
>>> your GPS coordinates so they know where you are. These are typically
>>> pendants you wear, or buttons you attach to the wall or under a desk.
>>>
>>> Earlier this week there was an incident where a criminal approached a
>>> vehicle, brandished a gun, to rob a guy, demanding his wallet and
>>> advising the victim to keep his hands visible and to not reach for his
>>> cell phone.
>>>
>>> What's needed is a panic button for a car that can be foot activated,
>>> using a switch like used to be used to activate high-beam headlights.
>>>
>>> Probably it would be too late by the time police responded to such a
>>> call, but not necessarily impossible.
>>
>> Some states are constitional carry. For others get a permit for
>> concealed carry. If lethal defense is outside your acceptance, and you
>> prefer a slower effect to defend, you could carry pepper spray (not gel
>> or foam, not a combo with tear gas, but spray or fog - and if ever used
>> then toss it to replace with a new one).
>>
>> A panic button tells cops where to find your corpse.
>
> With all due respect, you are an idiot.
>
> You think going for a weapon when you are facing an armed assailant has
> already approached you and has told you to keep your hands visible is a
> viable survival strategy?

The armed assailant also wants you to reach for your wallet. You think
because you comply the assailant isn't going to shoot you anyway? Oh
yes, compliance always guarantees survival, uh huh. Sorry, the meek
will NOT inherit the Earth. They'll be dead.

On 2022-09-02 12:36, VanguardLH wrote:
> Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2022-09-02 11:11, VanguardLH wrote:
>>> sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> There are a bunch of Bluetooth Panic Buttons that link to a phone and
>>>> can silently call 911 (or preprogrammed numbers) for help, providing
>>>> your GPS coordinates so they know where you are. These are typically
>>>> pendants you wear, or buttons you attach to the wall or under a desk.
>>>>
>>>> Earlier this week there was an incident where a criminal approached a
>>>> vehicle, brandished a gun, to rob a guy, demanding his wallet and
>>>> advising the victim to keep his hands visible and to not reach for his
>>>> cell phone.
>>>>
>>>> What's needed is a panic button for a car that can be foot activated,
>>>> using a switch like used to be used to activate high-beam headlights.
>>>>
>>>> Probably it would be too late by the time police responded to such a
>>>> call, but not necessarily impossible.
>>>
>>> Some states are constitional carry. For others get a permit for
>>> concealed carry. If lethal defense is outside your acceptance, and you
>>> prefer a slower effect to defend, you could carry pepper spray (not gel
>>> or foam, not a combo with tear gas, but spray or fog - and if ever used
>>> then toss it to replace with a new one).
>>>
>>> A panic button tells cops where to find your corpse.
>>
>> With all due respect, you are an idiot.
>>
>> You think going for a weapon when you are facing an armed assailant has
>> already approached you and has told you to keep your hands visible is a
>> viable survival strategy?
>
> The armed assailant also wants you to reach for your wallet.

Yup. And his eyes are going to be all over the hand that reaches for it.

> You think
> because you comply the assailant isn't going to shoot you anyway? Oh
> yes, compliance always guarantees survival, uh huh.

I never said anything like it.

But if he was just going to shoot you in order to steal your wallet...

....why wouldn't he just start with that...

....rather than let you try to do anything?

> Sorry, the meek
> will NOT inherit the Earth. They'll be dead.

You're delusional.

On 9/2/2022 11:11 AM, VanguardLH wrote:
> sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
>
>> There are a bunch of Bluetooth Panic Buttons that link to a phone and
>> can silently call 911 (or preprogrammed numbers) for help, providing
>> your GPS coordinates so they know where you are. These are typically
>> pendants you wear, or buttons you attach to the wall or under a desk.
>>
>> Earlier this week there was an incident where a criminal approached a
>> vehicle, brandished a gun, to rob a guy, demanding his wallet and
>> advising the victim to keep his hands visible and to not reach for his
>> cell phone.
>>
>> What's needed is a panic button for a car that can be foot activated,
>> using a switch like used to be used to activate high-beam headlights.
>>
>> Probably it would be too late by the time police responded to such a
>> call, but not necessarily impossible.
>
> Some states are constitional carry. For others get a permit for
> concealed carry. If lethal defense is outside your acceptance, and you
> prefer a slower effect to defend, you could carry pepper spray (not gel
> or foam, not a combo with tear gas, but spray or fog - and if ever used
> then toss it to replace with a new one).

Dumb. Unless you always have the gun in your hand when you're sitting in
your car, you're more likely to be killed reaching for your gun, then
the criminal has your wallet or purse _and_ your gun.

On 9/2/2022 2:20 PM, sms wrote:
> On 9/2/2022 11:11 AM, VanguardLH wrote:
>> sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:

>>> Earlier this week there was an incident where a criminal
>>> approached a vehicle, brandished a gun, to rob a guy, demanding
>>> his wallet and advising the victim to keep his hands visible and
>>> to not reach for his cell phone.

>>> What's needed is a panic button for a car that can be foot
>>> activated, using a switch like used to be used to activate
>>> high-beam headlights.

>>> Probably it would be too late by the time police responded to
>>> such a call, but not necessarily impossible.

You really don't want the cops showing up while a guy has a gun on you.
If they do you may become a hostage or be in the line of fire if there's
a shootout. Give him your wallet, not your life...

When I was working, the robbery clearance rate was well over 80%. So
even if the cops don't immediately catch him he may still not be home
free. And the outcome for your health will probably be much better.

>> Some states are constitional carry. For others get a permit for
>> concealed carry. If lethal defense is outside your acceptance,
>> and you prefer a slower effect to defend, you could carry pepper
>> spray (not gel or foam, not a combo with tear gas, but spray or fog
>> - and if ever used then toss it to replace with a new one).

We used to have a saying: Never bring a knife to a gun fight. It applies
to tear gas as well...

> Dumb. Unless you always have the gun in your hand when you're
> sitting in your car, you're more likely to be killed reaching for
> your gun, then the criminal has your wallet or purse _and_ your gun.

I can replace everything in my wallet except the cash. And my
life isn't worth the hundred bucks I normally carry. YMMV...

sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:

> On 9/2/2022 11:11 AM, VanguardLH wrote:
>> sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> There are a bunch of Bluetooth Panic Buttons that link to a phone and
>>> can silently call 911 (or preprogrammed numbers) for help, providing
>>> your GPS coordinates so they know where you are. These are typically
>>> pendants you wear, or buttons you attach to the wall or under a desk.
>>>
>>> Earlier this week there was an incident where a criminal approached a
>>> vehicle, brandished a gun, to rob a guy, demanding his wallet and
>>> advising the victim to keep his hands visible and to not reach for his
>>> cell phone.
>>>
>>> What's needed is a panic button for a car that can be foot activated,
>>> using a switch like used to be used to activate high-beam headlights.
>>>
>>> Probably it would be too late by the time police responded to such a
>>> call, but not necessarily impossible.
>>
>> Some states are constitional carry. For others get a permit for
>> concealed carry. If lethal defense is outside your acceptance, and you
>> prefer a slower effect to defend, you could carry pepper spray (not gel
>> or foam, not a combo with tear gas, but spray or fog - and if ever used
>> then toss it to replace with a new one).
>
> Dumb. Unless you always have the gun in your hand when you're sitting in
> your car, you're more likely to be killed reaching for your gun, then
> the criminal has your wallet or purse _and_ your gun.

That's why I said a magnetic mount. Have the gun within reach while you
are sitting. Pocket carry makes it very hard to get at the handgun when
sitting, especially in a car. Belly carry (IWB or belly band) means
your gonads are targeted, especially if you carry a striker-fired
handgun with no safety (even too many police forget to take off the
safety). Stowing it in the center console means having to unsnap and
lift the lid which is slow and very obvious. A magnet on your side of
the console keeps it within arms reach. You extract when entering your
vehicles, so it's in hand when entering which is a weak scenario as
you're focused on entering, and adhering to the magnet is easy after
sitting. If you're carrying a Casul .50, well, leave the canon on your
lap, or get a car holster. A short-nine (.380) hollow point is all I
need, but there are some decent nines for pocket carry. However, when
in the car, the gun shouldn't be in your pocket nor in a holster.
Right-handers will have a problem with IWB or OWB on their right side
with the seat belt.

If you carry lethal, make sure you get trained and practice a lot.
Unless you've got the muscle memory, you'll be fumbling in an emergency.
Practice isn't just about going to the range. Dry fire at home (but not
with rimfire), run through scenarios, and keep alert of what's around
you.

As I said, if can't handle lethal defense, carry something non-lethal,
like pepper spray. Easy to carry on your person in a belt holster (I
use an asthma belt holster), or in a pocket, or in an easy-to-find pouch
inside a purse, or with a clip to use on a belt, purse edge, pocket
edge. Then stick it onto a velcro strip in the car (don't leave one in
the car that can get super hot in summer, and super freezing in winter).

Getting back to the OP, put it wherever you want that is within arm's
reach. In the scenario given, put it on the center console or clipped
onto the pocket in the door since you have to move your arm(s) to your
side to get out your wallet. If you carry a purse, you're obviously
going to be moving your arms to hand over the entire bag (don't waste
time digging for your wallet).

I know a realtor & developer who carrys a wallet with his big bills and
card, and a money clip with a twenty on the outside a bunch of ones.
When he gets robbed (happened more than once), he tosses the money clip
on the ground and runs.

As for the car robbery scenario, when entering your car get used to
locking it. Some cars do that automatically, but perhaps not until you
start moving. If a robber comes up to the window, act like you can't
hear him. While you're rolling down the window, grab your defense
weapon of choice. If someone is pointing a gun at me, I prefer to use
mine. If someone is coming at me with a knife, I first go for the OC
(pepper) spray. I may one of each in each hand: gun in right, OC in
left. I've been robbed (attempted) only twice, but I practice like it
could happen anytime. Some cars have key fobs with a panic button to
use the car's emergency alert system, but if you have to reach for the
keys in the ignition the robber might be provoked to shoot you. If
you're moving your hands to get your wallet, well, reach for something
else. The robber might not want witnesses. They aren't actors in an
action movie.

Whether constitutional carry or [concealed] carry permit, the right or
permit don't make you proficient in protecting yourself. With concealed
carry, at least the state requires some training. Your local gun shop
or police should have lots of info on how to get training, and there are
publications to help you practice (e.g., USCCA). The shit you hear in
class for when gun owners think they can legally use handguns is
disgusting. If you carry lethal, you better know what to say to 911, to
the police, and during interrogation, and have pre-paid legal assistance
that is trained on shooting events (I have USCCA, but am considering
switching to ). If you carry, you need legal defense, and training on
what to say and not to say. If you run a business, you need legal
assistance, but retainers can be costly, so look at pre-paid legal.

Some folks think OC spray doesn't require training or practice. Uh huh.
They also think they can be held not legally responsible for
discharging. Better check your laws. Some think they can carry bear
pepper spray, but that's at a higher OC percentage that can cause
respiratory and even heart failure, and you could end up in court hoping
to be found not guilty of assault. There are lots of non-lethal
choices, but any that require you physically contact an assailant better
be paired with self-defense classes.

If you can run, you run unless you have to stay to protect family or
others. If you comply, you comply, but you don't take orders as to what
you can do, so reach for a weapon. Toss out bait to distract to let you
run, or draw. Cowering and pissing yourself is not a guarantee an armed
robber won't shoot you even if you comply.

If the OP is intent on having a panic somewhere, could be on the key
fob, attached to the center console (on the outside, like alongside your
body and out of sight from a robber at the window), on the inside panel
of the door, clipped onto a door pocket. You can comply by reaching for
your wallet, but not really comply by reaching for a defense weapon. If
your choice is to reach for a panic button, pray you survive after
handing over the money clip as bait.

Why are any wires required to foot push a panic button? They have
safety latches that have to be flipped up before you can press the
button? Why can't your foot push a button as easily as your palm? You
can get them as keyring fobs, mounted to push with a finger, palm,
elbow, or foot. Bank tellers have them for a silent alarm. A button is
a button. You need the hardware and emergency service to back it up.
If the button is recessed, use a self-stick rubber foot to elevate it
for use by a foot.

If your car doesn't have an emergency alert system, you're likely going
to have to pair the button with your phone, and hope you're in an area
with decent cellular coverage to have strength to make a 911 call. Your
bluetooth cell phone better be on, too. I know plenty of folks that
carry their phones while off, and turn them one when they want to use
them. Calls take more signal strength than SMS/text. 911 SMS isn't
available everywhere yet.

https://www.fcc.gov/consumers/guides/what-you-need-know-about-text-911

I've not bothered to look into OnStar, and other integral emergency
alert systems in cars.

If I had someone pointing a gun at my face to rob me, I either defend
myself, or kowtow and hope the robber isn't a super-bad robber. To me,
trying to use a panic button mean helps arrives too late. Cops can't be
everywhere. There is less than 3.4 per 1000 residents (see
https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/police-officers-by-state),
and that's in densely populated metro areas. Not everyone lives in New
York. My state is less than 0.3% cops compared to New York with a
little more than double that, but civilians put too much onus on cops to
protect them. From relative reports in higher crime states, panic
buttons mostly fall under nuisance alarms: too many false alerts, or not
much the cops can do when they arrive except paperwork. Are you going
to use 2 panic buttons in series to eliminate a false alert from your
foot accidentally hitting a panic button, or your elbow hitting on glued
to the center console, or a panic button on the key fob when you meant
to hit the unlock button?

Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:

> On 2022-09-02 12:36, VanguardLH wrote:
>> Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2022-09-02 11:11, VanguardLH wrote:
>>>> sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> There are a bunch of Bluetooth Panic Buttons that link to a phone and
>>>>> can silently call 911 (or preprogrammed numbers) for help, providing
>>>>> your GPS coordinates so they know where you are. These are typically
>>>>> pendants you wear, or buttons you attach to the wall or under a desk.
>>>>>
>>>>> Earlier this week there was an incident where a criminal approached a
>>>>> vehicle, brandished a gun, to rob a guy, demanding his wallet and
>>>>> advising the victim to keep his hands visible and to not reach for his
>>>>> cell phone.
>>>>>
>>>>> What's needed is a panic button for a car that can be foot activated,
>>>>> using a switch like used to be used to activate high-beam headlights.
>>>>>
>>>>> Probably it would be too late by the time police responded to such a
>>>>> call, but not necessarily impossible.
>>>>
>>>> Some states are constitional carry. For others get a permit for
>>>> concealed carry. If lethal defense is outside your acceptance, and you
>>>> prefer a slower effect to defend, you could carry pepper spray (not gel
>>>> or foam, not a combo with tear gas, but spray or fog - and if ever used
>>>> then toss it to replace with a new one).
>>>>
>>>> A panic button tells cops where to find your corpse.
>>>
>>> With all due respect, you are an idiot.
>>>
>>> You think going for a weapon when you are facing an armed assailant has
>>> already approached you and has told you to keep your hands visible is a
>>> viable survival strategy?
>>
>> The armed assailant also wants you to reach for your wallet.
>
> Yup. And his eyes are going to be all over the hand that reaches for it.
>
>> You think
>> because you comply the assailant isn't going to shoot you anyway? Oh
>> yes, compliance always guarantees survival, uh huh.
>
> I never said anything like it.
>
> But if he was just going to shoot you in order to steal your wallet...
>
> ...why wouldn't he just start with that...
>
> ...rather than let you try to do anything?
>
>> Sorry, the meek
>> will NOT inherit the Earth. They'll be dead.
>
> You're delusional.

You're thinking robbers are rational or intelligent? You voluntary
comply, and you think the robber will thank you and leave? Robbers
prefer you do the work rather than make noise with gunfire and then
spend time grappling a corpse. Talk to your police about robbery cases.
Take gun permit training courses. Learn about what happens, not what
you would like to happen.

If the meek fight back, they're not the meek anymore.

On 2022-09-02 18:16, VanguardLH wrote:
> Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2022-09-02 12:36, VanguardLH wrote:
>>> Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2022-09-02 11:11, VanguardLH wrote:
>>>>> sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> There are a bunch of Bluetooth Panic Buttons that link to a phone and
>>>>>> can silently call 911 (or preprogrammed numbers) for help, providing
>>>>>> your GPS coordinates so they know where you are. These are typically
>>>>>> pendants you wear, or buttons you attach to the wall or under a desk.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Earlier this week there was an incident where a criminal approached a
>>>>>> vehicle, brandished a gun, to rob a guy, demanding his wallet and
>>>>>> advising the victim to keep his hands visible and to not reach for his
>>>>>> cell phone.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What's needed is a panic button for a car that can be foot activated,
>>>>>> using a switch like used to be used to activate high-beam headlights.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Probably it would be too late by the time police responded to such a
>>>>>> call, but not necessarily impossible.
>>>>>
>>>>> Some states are constitional carry. For others get a permit for
>>>>> concealed carry. If lethal defense is outside your acceptance, and you
>>>>> prefer a slower effect to defend, you could carry pepper spray (not gel
>>>>> or foam, not a combo with tear gas, but spray or fog - and if ever used
>>>>> then toss it to replace with a new one).
>>>>>
>>>>> A panic button tells cops where to find your corpse.
>>>>
>>>> With all due respect, you are an idiot.
>>>>
>>>> You think going for a weapon when you are facing an armed assailant has
>>>> already approached you and has told you to keep your hands visible is a
>>>> viable survival strategy?
>>>
>>> The armed assailant also wants you to reach for your wallet.
>>
>> Yup. And his eyes are going to be all over the hand that reaches for it.
>>
>>> You think
>>> because you comply the assailant isn't going to shoot you anyway? Oh
>>> yes, compliance always guarantees survival, uh huh.
>>
>> I never said anything like it.
>>
>> But if he was just going to shoot you in order to steal your wallet...
>>
>> ...why wouldn't he just start with that...
>>
>> ...rather than let you try to do anything?
>>
>>> Sorry, the meek
>>> will NOT inherit the Earth. They'll be dead.
>>
>> You're delusional.
>
> You're thinking robbers are rational or intelligent?

Yes, actually.

> You voluntary
> comply, and you think the robber will thank you and leave?

Again, if killing is a part of his plan, again I ask, why does he wait?

> Robbers
> prefer you do the work rather than make noise with gunfire and then
> spend time grappling a corpse. Talk to your police about robbery cases.
> Take gun permit training courses. Learn about what happens, not what
> you would like to happen.
>
> If the meek fight back, they're not the meek anymore.

LOLOLOLOLL!

You da man!

On 9/2/2022 6:16 PM, VanguardLH wrote:

> You're [Alan] thinking robbers are rational or intelligent?

Mostly the perps I met were just average folks. And many as I recall
were actually quite decent during the booking process.

> You voluntary comply, and you think the robber will thank you and
> leave?

Dunno about the 'thanks' but in most all of the armed robberies I
investigated they left with the loot without harming the victim.

> Robbers prefer you do the work rather than make noise with gunfire
> and then spend time grappling a corpse.

You've been watching too many movies.

> Talk to your police about robbery cases.

I was a street cop for 25 years though I retired 30 years ago. But I
have a son and son-in-law who are cops so still pretty much keep up with
things.

> Take gun permit training courses.

One of my squad mates dropped his second weapon and shot himself in the
ass. (Most of us carried a concealed second weapon in case we lost our
primary.) Even with all our fancy training stuff still happens...

> Learn about what happens, not what you would like to happen. If the
> meek fight back, they're not the meek anymore.

As I said real life's not always like the movies...

On 2022-09-02 19:30, AJL wrote:
> On 9/2/2022 6:16 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
>
>> You're [Alan] thinking robbers are rational or intelligent?
>
> Mostly the perps I met were just average folks. And many as I recall
> were actually quite decent during the booking process.
>
>> You voluntary comply, and you think the robber will thank you and
>> leave?
>
> Dunno about the 'thanks' but in most all of the armed robberies I
> investigated they left with the loot without harming the victim.
>
>> Robbers prefer you do the work rather than make noise with gunfire
>> and then spend time grappling a corpse.
>
> You've been watching too many movies.
>
>> Talk to your police about robbery cases.
>
> I was a street cop for 25 years though I retired 30 years ago. But I
> have a son and son-in-law who are cops so still pretty much keep up with
> things.
>
>> Take gun permit training courses.
>
> One of my squad mates dropped his second weapon and shot himself in the
> ass. (Most of us carried a concealed second weapon in case we lost our
> primary.) Even with all our fancy training stuff still happens...
>
>> Learn about what happens, not what you would like to happen. If the
>> meek fight back, they're not the meek anymore.
>
> As I said real life's not always like the movies...
>

Thanks, AJL.

I have no history in law enforcement, but you've pretty much confirmed
what I surmised about the situation.

Amazingly, even those who commit crimes know that the penalty for armed
robbery is still going to be a lot less than the penalty for murder.

On 9/2/22 8:21 PM, Alan wrote:

>Amazingly, even those who commit crimes know that the penalty for armed
>robbery is still going to be a lot less than the penalty for murder.

Agreed. But my GUESS is that if a victim pulls a gun on an armed robber the
robber may shoot the victim simply because he now fears for his own life
and probably doesn't consider any advanced penalty until later.

I'm posting with a new el cheapo chromebook toy. Let's see how it works...

On 2022-09-02 20:35, AJL wrote:
> On 9/2/22 8:21 PM, Alan wrote:
>
>> Amazingly, even those who commit crimes know that the penalty for
>> armed robbery is still going to be a lot less than the penalty for
>> murder.
>
> Agreed. But my GUESS is that if a victim pulls a gun on an armed robber the
> robber may shoot the victim simply because he now fears for his own life
> and probably doesn't consider any advanced penalty until later.

Completely agreed.

I think we both agree that going for a weapon in almost any circumstance
when a firearm is already trained on you is a pretty bad idea.

>
> I'm posting with a new el cheapo chromebook toy. Let's see how it works...
>

AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:

> You've been watching too many movies.

No, I read news online and magazines. Newspapers don't give much
detail, especially when someone got killed who obviously cannot report
their side of the story. Movies are choreographed, and the outcome is
preset. Only a boob would think they depict reality; else, there'd
really be a lot of dead actors making room for striving new artists.
Would you, as an actor, enjoin a movie where the threats were real?

Not too long ago a female cop (Kim Potter) trained and certified for
using a taser still grabbed her handgun instead of the taser, and killed
a black kid (Dante Wright) that got scared and tried to drive away.
Even the well trained and practiced still make mistakes. Training
doesn't turn you into a perfect gun user. I don't have access to combat
training centers afforded to police and soldiers, but then I'm not
imperiled everyday as part of my job. Hell, the gun range won't even
let me practice drawing and shooting, so I have to practice drawing and
dry-fire at home. I can bounce between bullseyes on the same target in
my lane, but not across lanes. They have rules for safety. Timed
performance shooting isn't my cup of tea. Never been interested in
proving my proficiency and accuracy, plus those scenarios really don't
reflect self-defense or combat scenarios.

Buying a gun should not be the last expense, by far. Training isn't
cheap. Neither is ammo for practice. I don't want to add up the cost
of ammo for the last year; else, I'd probably go to the range a lot
less. I buy a bag of 20 range tokens at $350 instead of paying $25 x 20
($500).

>> Take gun permit training courses.
>
> One of my squad mates dropped his second weapon and shot himself in the
> ass. (Most of us carried a concealed second weapon in case we lost our
> primary.) Even with all our fancy training stuff still happens...

What firearm was that? I've seen some recalls (forget the brand) about
striker-fired handguns going off on a drop.

Geez, I remember seeing a Youtube video showing a guy at the range
wearing what looked like baggy swim shorts, tried to pull his pocket
carry out of a pocket, it fell, and went off. Now if I could remember
what article led me to that video.

Even with a safety, the way it works is to block the trigger, not
prevent a misfire. That's why some folks don't like striker-fire
handguns, and still prefer DA, or even back to SA, like for 1911s.

There are still too many holsters, especially those for pocket carry,
that don't completely cover the trigger guard. Despite training and
practice to keep the trigger finger outside the trigger guard until
ready to shoot (and considering what is downrange), sometimes I have to
internally verbalize to myself "Finger OUTSIDE the trigger guard!". Not
when I draw, but when I'm at the range aiming to shoot. I dislike those
soft pocket holsters. They don't keep your finger out of the trigger
guard when drawing. I got a kydex pocket holster from Alabama holster,
and it does cover the entire trigger guard. The soft pocket holster
that came with the pocket pistol went back into the box. Maybe I'll use
it during transport. I was on the fence if I also wanted the mag
release also covered, so I didn't add it. Now I'm wondering about the
SneakyPete belt holster. I ordered one, but won't know if draw will be
slower, and if the magnets will really hold down the flap to secure the
pocket pistol. Might be another item tossed into the fail barrel.
Reviews are nice, but hands-on is better.

With a striker fire handgun with no safety, it's like a 1911 which is SA
in cocked-and-locked position: one in the chamber, can fire if safety is
disengaged. Some folks don't like a safety. Some want one. For me, no
for pocket carry, okay for belt carry or a range gun. Those that don't
want one complain about the absence of choices (what they want have a
safety), but tis easy to leave the safety off. Can usually be removed,
too, and often without needing a gunsmith (although many gun owners
never even do field disassembly for cleaning). If there is no safety,
and you want one, probably need to shop for a different weapon. I can't
think of when a safety can be easily installed when there wasn't one,
but I'm not a gunsmith, and have not owned every handgun without a
safety. If you want a safety, and are willing hoping you remember to
flip it to off when needed, but your weapon doesn't have a safety, don't
load one in the chamber, and rack the slide to start firing.

>
>> Learn about what happens, not what you would like to happen. If the
>> meek fight back, they're not the meek anymore.
>
> As I said real life's not always like the movies...

Neither is fighting, or car chases. Still remember some movie where a
detective on the ground pulls out a snub .38 and takes out a sniper from
atop a 10-story building yet the A-Team can fire off 2000 rounds without
hitting anything. Hell, don't have to go that far back. Star Wars
movies are rife with blasters hitting everywhere but the targets, but
one critical shot takes out a wall control for a blaster door.

Yes, most robberies end without severe consequences. Do you want to
rely on those odds? When you were a cop, did you leave your handgun,
spray, belt and other tools in your locker because the odds were you
wouldn't get attacked by an armed angry civilian? I have fire
extinguishers in my home and garage, and not because I often have fires
(only 1 in my entire 60+ years in a garage), but I want the insurance.

Robbery went down 9.6% percent in 2020 (FBI Uniform Crime Reporting
Program, Crime in the United States, 2020, Table 1A), but murder went up
28.9%. I haven't found a reliable source for how many robberies
resulted in firing a gun that injured or killed the victim. Personal
experiences are inadmissble one-off evidence: what happened just for you
doesn't relate to what's happening out there for everyone else. For
what stats they show, there's less chance of being robbed, but more
chance of being murdered during a robbery. Between 2019 and 2020,
murder went up 36% in the Northeast, 36% in the Midwest, 26% in the
South, and 27% in the West. However, for our specific scenario, the
data doesn't explicitly say how much of the increase in murders occured
during a robbery, and for what type of robbery.

I don't have to use a gun or spray for self-defense in a robbery. Yep,
give them what they want, but my hand will be on my gun or spray. Give
them what they want (other than your children), but how confident are
you that you will not get shot by a gun-wielding perp? It also means I
failed in my situational awareness to avoid or prepare for the
encounter. For us non-cop/non-solider gun owners, yep, there are
classes for that, too, but you need to practice. Being alert does not
mean being paranoid. When armed, I have options that aren't available
to non-armed victims. I won't ever rely or even bother with a panic
button to tell 911 to tell police where "something" happened for them to
show up sometime later. Well, they could return my car to my family if
it's still there.

On 9/2/2022 9:01 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
> AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:

> Even the well trained and practiced still make [gun] mistakes.

During my academy graduation my sergeant demonstrated a fully automatic
machine gun. He shot it at a metal target. Shrapnel came back into the
audience and hit a kid and man. Minor wounds. Could have been a lot
worse. How's that for a mistake...

> Hell, the gun range won't even let me practice drawing and shooting,

One recruit shot himself in the leg while practicing drawing at our
academy range. How's that for a mistake...

> so I have to practice drawing and dry-fire at home.

A gun was never my hobby. Just a tool. I had to qualify periodically at
the range but otherwise I never messed with it.

> Buying a gun should not be the last expense, by far.

When I retired I was able to buy my city supplied service weapon (Glock
17) for one dollar. Traded it to a son for a six shooter which has
stayed in the garage for the last 30 years.

>> One of my squad mates dropped his second weapon and shot himself
>> in the ass. (Most of us carried a concealed second weapon in case
>> we lost our primary.) Even with all our fancy training stuff still
>> happens...

> What firearm was that?

Don't remember. We had to purchase our own second weapon and at that
time (early 70s) there were no department regulations as to what we
could carry so it could have been most anything.

> When you were a cop, did you leave your handgun, spray, belt and
> other tools in your locker because the odds were you wouldn't get
> attacked by an armed angry civilian?

I imagine I'd have gotten fired if I didn't wear my gear on duty. Tools
of the trade. Silly question.

> I have fire extinguishers in my home and garage, and not because I
> often have fires (only 1 in my entire 60+ years in a garage), but I
> want the insurance.

I carried off duty when I first started and was gung-ho. But in my
later cop years I stopped carrying. Getting in a gun fight with the
family around didn't seem like such a good idea. One time I saw a
burglary suspect when off duty. I just went to a pay phone (no cells
then) and called it in. He was arrested by responding cops. And I
haven't carried since retirement either. YMMV...

> Personal experiences are inadmissble one-off evidence: what happened
> just for you doesn't relate to what's happening out there for
> everyone else.

Yup. And my cop experiences are now 30 to 55 years old. Don't think I'd
want to be one today.

> For what stats they show, there's less chance of being robbed, but
> more chance of being murdered during a robbery.

More likely I'll be killed by some citizen shooting at a robber and
hitting me...

> how confident are you that you will not get shot by a gun-wielding
> perp?

Odds are I'm more likely to get killed on the freeway tomorrow...

AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:

> On 9/2/22 8:21 PM, Alan wrote:
>
>>Amazingly, even those who commit crimes know that the penalty for armed
>>robbery is still going to be a lot less than the penalty for murder.
>
> Agreed. But my GUESS is that if a victim pulls a gun on an armed robber the
> robber may shoot the victim simply because he now fears for his own life
> and probably doesn't consider any advanced penalty until later.
>
> I'm posting with a new el cheapo chromebook toy. Let's see how it works...

And, of course, no police officer would ever draw his weapon when a
weapon, or what looks like a weapon (counterfeits), is already trained
on him or even already firing on his position. What amazes me is the
control a cop has to NOT fire his drawn weapon and instead try to take
the /suspect/ alive. Sure glad I'm not a cop and similarly restrained
by policy. They have to take chances that I never must.

Have you ever been to a gun range to see kids unloading magazine after
magazine at a human-sized target to get a scattered pattern all over the
target and lots of complete misses? Bet they just bought a toy, and
want to use it at least once. My gun shop even doles out a free range
pass with a gun purchase.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mw8NR6p8gyI

Yeah, it's a movie, however pointing a gun doesn't mean the robber is
going to even hit the car. You don't have to pay anything to visit a
gun range to watch the shooters, especially if you see kids at a lane.
They are having fun squeezing out rounds and making noise, and giggle if
they get 50% hits on a huge target at arm's reach.

Hell, I had a Beretta 21A .22LR tiny pocket pistol where the bullet
flipped up when it exited the barrel. Without practice, you wouldn't
know that you had to aim at their feet to hit their torso. Very cute,
but got rid of it.

Hmm, wonder if there are any statistics on how many robbers have
histories of repeated practice at a gun range to know their weapon.

Even if the panic button works, and the cops magically appear instantly,
does the robber try to run away, immediately fall to the ground to
surrender, or take you hostage where the threat changes from taking your
wallet to taking your life. The cops are there to help, but their
presence can also escalate a situation. Yes, drawing a weapon can also
escalate a situation, but being passive doesn't guarantee survival.

I've been in a single-engine Cessna with a siezed engine diving over a
lake toward a forest. Do I go passive and stay in the plane hoping I
suvive smashing into trees? Or do I go agressive to exit into the
water? I'd rather make my choice instead of the robber doing that. As
I've said, I may very well hand over my wallet, but I have other options
for followup. There's nothing in my wallet worth dying for, or even
getting a wound, but my life is certainly worth protecting and I will
defend it. The scenario described is not cut-n-dry with the same
outcome everytime.

Number of robberies in the United States in 2020, by weapon used
https://www.statista.com/statistics/251914/number-of-robberies-in-the-us-by-weapon/

A crime of robbery doesn't even involve an actual weapon. The threat of
a weapon, shown or simply claimed, is robbery. Could be a gun, or a
knife, or bat, memo spike, or the claim of having one. Robbery: taking
property from a person or place by force or threat of force that causes
fear. Some folks are more easily afeared than others. With the fight or
flee response, you choose to flee, I choose to fight.

There is a fear gene that produces the stathmin protein, so maybe mine
isn't dominant, or my amygdala is undersized. I say that because I
don't want anyone thinking I'm heroic because I don't succumb to fear as
easily as others. Different people react differently to threatening
stimuli. All the females on both sides of my family would panic. My
mother would just freeze: couldn't talk, couldn't move, and blubbered.
My maternal grandpa (never knew my paternal grandpa as he abandoned his
family before I was even born) and my father weren't easily frightened.
I don't often encounter life-threatening situations, so I don't have
fear reduction due to habituation. My father owned a construction
company, so I'd be atop skyscrapers on the girder skeleton feeling
exhilerated instead of afraid of falling. Look at the view! This is
cool. Not sure that would numb you from fear during a robbery, though.
I've was putting out a fire, caught on fire, rolled, went back in to
work more on the fire. When the fire truck arrived, I stepped aside.
Sorry, I won't cower or won't resist a robber. Not who I am.

And, going back to the OP's topic, just how is a panic button going to
eliminate the threat? If the alert is silent, the robber isn't going
away until they decide, and they're not waiting around in their hyper
agitaged state. Not all robbers are drunk or drugged. If the alert is
audible, well, I'm not the one that mentioned frightening the robber
into firing, but the argument works the same for an siren blaring away.
If you survive, you get to describe the assailant. Ever listen to the
describe an assailant or car? Your solace is you get to vent to the
police when they show up.

Hopefully the panic button requires continual pressing for several
seconds to avoid false alarms. That won't prevent misinterpreting a
situation as a threat when it is not, or the OP's foot resting on the
button, or ice buildup during winter doing the same. Remember to get a
copy of the police report to avoid a false alarm response fee. False
alarms are a serious nuisance to the police. Are users of panic alarms
required to take a class on situational awareness? Yeah, like that'll
happen ... not. Give them a crescent wrench and, lo and behold, they
are a car mechanic.

AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:

> On 9/2/2022 9:01 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
>> AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:
>
>> Even the well trained and practiced still make [gun] mistakes.
>
> During my academy graduation my sergeant demonstrated a fully automatic
> machine gun. He shot it at a metal target. Shrapnel came back into the
> audience and hit a kid and man. Minor wounds. Could have been a lot
> worse. How's that for a mistake...

Went with a buddy to his father's farm to practice some .22 shooting at
moving targets. He was firing at some abandoned farm implement, and
noted he heard something shuffling past his feet. I took one look at
the implement, it was triangular (angled face, flat bottom, another
angled face) and immediately shamed him by noting the geometry of the
richochet. The bullets were luckily speeding past his feet instead of
hitting them.

Was at the range when I saw some kids shooting solid steel bullets
(armor piercing) from an AR15. Quickly tossed everything into the range
bag, walked out, told the counter folk, and kept walking out. Took 2
years before the rifle section of the range reopened after the repairs.

When you shoot, you need to account for what is around and behind the
target. How would you feel defending your life by shooting an armed
assailant while also killing a baby and its mother? Bad enough to stew
over taking a life even of the robber, but far worse to terminate
innocents. I've never had to kill anyone yet, and, so far, only had to
threaten by presentation. That's the hesitation that could get me
killed.

>> Hell, the gun range won't even let me practice drawing and shooting,
>
> One recruit shot himself in the leg while practicing drawing at our
> academy range. How's that for a mistake...
>
>> so I have to practice drawing and dry-fire at home.
>
> A gun was never my hobby. Just a tool. I had to qualify periodically at
> the range but otherwise I never messed with it.

Qualification was all that was needed? Wow, the ones I know keep adding
more training classes and certification. I don't that many cops.
Mostly just the ones that are the range, but that city eventually got
their own range, so we mostly just see each other when someone decides
to get the gang together at the bar.

>> Buying a gun should not be the last expense, by far.
>
> When I retired I was able to buy my city supplied service weapon
> (Glock 17) for one dollar. Traded it to a son for a six shooter which
> has stayed in the garage for the last 30 years.

For something so lethal, I prefer to practice a lot, and take classes or
personal instruction when I can afford them. I'm not a gun collector.
I only have handguns for specific purposes: pocket carry, home defense,
and plinking. Although I keep reviewing the use of an AR15 or shotgun
for home defense, just cannot qualify them for that purpose. If I kept
a wheel gun for 30 years, it would've been used, at least, for plinking
to compete with myself on accuracy. Stored in the garage unused makes
it a chunk of metal, not a gun.

>>> One of my squad mates dropped his second weapon and shot himself
>>> in the ass. (Most of us carried a concealed second weapon in case
>>> we lost our primary.) Even with all our fancy training stuff still
>>> happens...
>
>> What firearm was that?
>
> Don't remember. We had to purchase our own second weapon and at that
> time (early 70s) there were no department regulations as to what we
> could carry so it could have been most anything.

The incident I remember was only a couple years back. Besides the fire
on drop incident, I couldn't believe the clothes the dude was wearing at
the range. I wouldn't even wear that in the privacy of my home. Barely
more than roving around in underwear. The pocket was vestigal: barely
could call it a pocket. However, the handgun should never fire on drop,
I remember it had a recall, but you could have the maker send the part
was easily user serviceable (provided you're familiar with, at least,
field stripping for cleaning). Modern firearms are supposed to be drop
safe, so it was big news back then when one failed.

I think it was a Sig P320 which the Dallas Police removed from their
approved firearms list as not drop safe. Never mentioned was if the
trigger was original or aftermarket. I think users replaced the stock
trigger with an Apex one to make it drop safe. Apparently the defect
was due to trigger inertia, so I'm thinking a striker-fired handgun
where the trigger blade managed to move with the trigger, so the blade
didn't block the trigger from moving back.

I was one of those enamored with the SIG P365 9mm when it came out.
Oooh, a cool 9mm pocket carry. However, it had firing pin drag that
reduced firing reliability and even snapped off the end of the pin. Its
backplate also could fall off because the only thing holding in the
grooves at the backend of the slide was a plastic ferrule that deformed
over repeated use, and had to be deformed to remove the backplate.
There was some other defect that rendered the handgun useless. Would
have to revisit the research on that one. Instead of announcing the
substantiated defects which mike initiate recalls, Sig made
modifications each year over several years. Officiandos that bought
each year model saw the pin strike pattern changed, and the pin tip's
shape changed. There is still a little bit of pin drag on the primer,
but not like it was back in 2018. Not sure I'd want one now.

> I carried off duty when I first started and was gung-ho. But in my
> later cop years I stopped carrying. Getting in a gun fight with the
> family around didn't seem like such a good idea.

So the assailant being the only one armed is a good idea?

> One time I saw a burglary suspect when off duty. I just went to a pay
> phone (no cells then) and called it in. He was arrested by responding
> cops. And I haven't carried since retirement either. YMMV...

Nice to be in a nice neighborhood. On farms, they don't even lock the
doors. Bet the responding cops had guns, though.

In my car, I have probably around 200+ pounds of tools and emergency and
survival gear. Not because I'm in construction or travel on lumber
roads in northern Manitoba, but because I'd rather be able to handle an
emergency when in the car instead of relying on a cell phone in reach to
a cell tower to call AAA. I even have tow straps and jumper cables.
Obviously those are to help others, since they can't help me alone.
Even have some toilet paper in the car. I have more tools in my car
than most folks have in their house and garage. When I help friends on
home build or improvement, all I have to remember is to bring the
cordless tools and slew of batteries. The only item I haven't yet
qualified or been motivated to add is a bug-out bag. Knowing me, it
would end up being a big one.

Never been a boy scout, but "be prepared" makes a lot of sense. I tend
to be over prepared, just like 50 nails and Liquid Nails Extreme is
better just 25 nails when sister-boarding a cracked joist in the garage.
I'm not a carpenter, but I tend to overbuild. I'm not an electrician,
and despite not required by minimum code, I still put a drip loop in the
wiring into an wall box to prevent water following the wiring into the
box plus have extra length when later work is needed.

With a loaded pocket carry pistol in a kydex pocket holster, belt
holster with an extra mag, belt holster for OC spray, 2 mini
multi-tools, keys, coin purse, Maglite mini flashlight, nail clipper,
wallet, pen, folding paraframe knife, and large smartphone, my pants are
5 pounds heavier. Yeah, I'll never get past the scanners at the
airport.

> More likely I'll be killed by some citizen shooting at a robber and
> hitting me...

Or a gung ho home owner using 5.56 solid FMJ in an AR15 or 12 guage with
00 buckshot for home defense.

That's why I prefer that carry (constitutional or by permit) mandates by
law training, minimum practice shown by logging stamped by the range,
and certification for gun ownership. However, I'm also in favor of 5-
or 10-year recertification to retain a driver's license, too. Guess how
those proposals go over even with anti-gun proponents. Geez, you mean I
have to prove every 10 years that I know how to use my hunting shotgun?

By the way, I suspect many think I'm some pro-gun twenty-something
gun[g] ho gun owner. I've been familiar with firearms for 60 years, and
my dad was more strict than today's training instructors. I'm 66.
Never been in the military (but never a conscientous objector, either)
or a cop. I prefer better self-defense options than "oh, please don't
hurt me, please, oh please".

>> how confident are you that you will not get shot by a gun-wielding
>> perp?
>
> Odds are I'm more likely to get killed on the freeway tomorrow...

Yeah, for many drivers, it's the only excitement they get in their day.
OMG, I just have to get home 4 car lengths ahead to eat that nukem food
and watch some mind numbing TV. I like when someone keeps cutting in
traffic to get ahead a car length, I come up alongside and wave, they do
it again, I come on them again and wave, and eventually they realize
they aren't getting ahead. A long time back, a coworker made the
statement that he speeds because he wants to get ahead of everyone. I
responded that there will always be someone ahead of you no matter how
fast you drive. Considering a car can kill, I also practice manuevers
with my cars in my employers huge empty parking lots at 3AM, or at the
drivering test center with permission. Also have a race track nearby.
My aunt literally freezes when spinning on ice. There are defensive
driving courses. Alas, they're not mandatory, and cost deters voluntary
participation, and they may be absent in your area. Same reason why new
gun owners don't train or practice: cost of courses, cost for ammo, cost
for range, range is too far away (and you're urban instead of rural).

On 9/3/2022 4:01 AM, VanguardLH wrote:

> I've never had to kill anyone yet, and, so far, only had to threaten
> by presentation.

You seem to have led a perilous life. Fortunately I've been a boring
civilian. Not one dangerous incident ever.

> the assailant being the only one armed is a good idea?

Probably much safer than having all civilians armed.

> Nice to be in a nice neighborhood.

True. I do stay out of the bad parts of town. Common sense...

> the responding cops had guns,

Of course. And responding plumbers have wrenches.

> With a loaded pocket carry pistol in a kydex pocket holster, belt
> holster with an extra mag, belt holster for OC spray, 2 mini
> multi-tools, keys, coin purse, Maglite mini flashlight, nail
> clipper, wallet, pen, folding paraframe knife, and large smartphone,
> my pants are 5 pounds heavier.

My pants are heavy too (insert bad joke here). I carry a bottled water
in them. It was 110F here yesterday.

> I like when someone keeps cutting in traffic to get ahead a car
> length, I come up alongside and wave,

Keep your gun out. Here folks get shot during road rage incidents.

> If the concealed carry gun owner, a woman, wasn't there, the death
> count would've been a lot higher.

Here, a few years back, a woman dropped a gun from her purse and shot
another customer. Don't see that in the movies...

On 9/3/2022 1:29 AM, VanguardLH wrote:

> What amazes me is the control a cop has to NOT fire his drawn weapon
> and instead try to take the /suspect/ alive.

That was not the policy of my department. Once the department policy was
met for use of lethal force our training was to shoot center mass to
bring the suspect down so that he was no longer a threat. Life or death
was not a consideration.

> drawing a weapon can also escalate a situation, but being passive
> doesn't guarantee survival.

Depends on the situation. A civilian drawing a gun doesn't guarantee
survival and in armed robbery cases could actually lessen survival.

> With the fight or flee response, you choose to flee, I choose to
> fight.

Back to the movies?

> False alarms are a serious nuisance to the police.

False alarms were a PITA when I was working too. My city gave a number
of free ones before they started charging.

AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:

> My pants are heavy too (insert bad joke here). I carry a bottled water
> in them. It was 110F here yesterday.

Nah. I know you stuffed in the front of your pants trying to impress
the strippers.

> Keep your gun out. Here folks get shot during road rage incidents.

Road rage is a problem, but not typical. That all his rush-hour
maneuvering wasn't getting him ahead is a reason to get mad? I suppose
so if the guy was afflicted it IED (Intermittent Explosive Disorder).
But then those folks, or addicts, could decide to collide with anyone on
the road, and run over civilians.

Had a guy that decided to race his little Porsche against my muscle car
(highly modified, street legal, and still would idle smooth at a stop).
I could take 2nd gear from a stop to 80 mph (the rear end was custom and
a big V8 engine customized but not quite blueprinted). Yeah, I know, I
shouldn't be racing on streets. When he caught up to me (I was on the
right of him), I could see behind his closed windows him swearing up a
storm and was angry. I did the Redd Foxx skit from Sanford & Son where
I pound my chest, arch my back, and say "This is the big one. I'm
coming Elizabeth.". This was to ridicule his swearing as though I'd die
from his swearing. His passenger started laughing, the driver asked
why, he saw what I was doing, and the driver started laughing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stdi-1tIUhM

>> If the concealed carry gun owner, a woman, wasn't there, the death
>> count would've been a lot higher.
>
> Here, a few years back, a woman dropped a gun from her purse and shot
> another customer. Don't see that in the movies...

While videos showing personal experiences, or someone recording an
event, of inertia discharge, perhaps a movie maker's lawyer suggests not
showing gun failures to avoid lawsuits from the gun maker. Isn't "drop
safe" only measured with a gun dropped from hip height? I can't
remember a movie showing a drop-safe failure, but then not remembering
doesn't mean it has never been shown. I have seen movies showing
someone trying to fire, but the magazine dropping out instead. How many
show a experienced shooter who fires, but than has to rack the slide to
remove a stovepipe. Also can't remember a movie showing feeding
failures. The director wants the gun to go ka-bang, not shhhick from
the cycled slide.

The movies are full of shit, like Goldfinger getting sucked out a small
window when it gets blown out by gun fire, and the plane diving into a
crash as though the airflow over the wings suddenly ended. Hmm, guess
all those airplanes for skydiving going into a crash dive with the exit
door gets opened. In the movie Columbian, Zoe Saldana stabs a guy's
carotoid artery (https://youtu.be/DgDfqh4Z1Tg?t=114) with the slide she
pulls off a semi-auto handgun (maybe it was a Beretta 92 since I liked
how rotating the release lever has the slide easily pop off). I don't
remember the magazine had to be ejected to remove the slide. The
backplate on the slide is rounded
(https://grabcad.com/library/beretta-92-fs-slide). But, what the hell,
it looks cool in a movie. Like people exploding when ejected into space
because of a change of just 1 atmosphere in pressure. Looks cool in the
movie, and movies don't let facts get in their way of artistic license.

How many times have you seen a movie showing someone racking the slide
on a semi-auto (handgun or rifle), but never expelling a chambered
round? Uh huh, everyone surely walks around on an empty chamber.
1911's in cocked-n-locked, DA handguns with a round in the chamber, and
even striker-fired with a chambered round seem the norm at the range.
Back when the mags were limited to 10 rounds, chambered rounds were
common. Maybe now that they come with 17+ round mags, the loss of one
round isn't so important anymore. But that means slower to ready the
weapon by having to cycle the slide. Some semis have very stiff
springs, so racking the slide is much harder, and some have dull
serrations making harder the grip on the slide. In the movies, actors
are given "cold guns" (no rounds in chamber or mag, so completely empty)
rather than counterfeits. In the movie making of "Rust", whoever handed
the prop Colt .45 handgun to Baldwin called out "cold gun" yet Baldwin
fatally shot cinematographer Hutchins. More live rounds were found on
the set.

Talked to the guys at the gun shop in the sales area on how many times a
gun owner claimed the firearm was unloaded only for the employee to find
a chambered round. I've barked many times at a neighboring shooter in
the next lane at the range who racks their slide while pointing it
sideways (toward the other shooters to the side). In the movies, how
many times do they show a shooter keeping his finger *outside* the
trigger guard until he about to fire? Nah, more cool to show the finger
pressed on the trigger.

Don't remember any movie showing someone loading a round in the chamber
but backwards. Happened at the range test for getting my concealed
carry permit. A gal who really needed beginner's training beforehand
(think she was using her boyfriend's 9mm) got a round loaded backwards
in the magazine, racked the slide, but the gun wouldn't fire.
Instructor saw the round jammed in backwards. He tried to extract it,
but gave up figuring it was too dangerous and told the gal to have a
gunsmith remove the jammed round. End of her range test.

Another hefty guy at the range test somehow cut his hand. It was a
Ruger wheel gun (maybe a 480 or 454 Casull) with rubber grips. Not the
plastic grips, but very sticky rubberized grips. I remember my father
having a similar one (Ruger Skyhawk .44 mag) without the fingered front
side to the grip, but smooth. I'd get blisters when range shooting with
it. Lots of hard recoil (it had a short barrel) for a large round, and
high-friction grips to tear the skin in the web of your hand. It really
wasn't a blister, but shearing of the outer skin from the underlying
skin layer, like a dry blister. Same thing happened to my dad, and he
replaced the rubber grips with wood ones. The guy's hand was bleeding a
lot, so he couldn't continue the range test. While I got dry blisters
until the grip got changed, I'm not sure how this guy got injured in the
web of his right hand to have to bleeding a lot. That convinced me to
stuff a first aid pouch in my range bag if only to help someone else.
I've had a couple in my car for many years. Luckily that instructor
didn't fail the guy as would normally happen, but let him reschedule for
a later class and range test, so the guy didn't lose the price of the
class. Don't remember seeing a movie where firing a gun had the user
start bleeding. Don't even remember seeing a movie where they show the
gunman getting slide bite from a semi-auto pistol.

Glock fires 30 rounds in 2.3 seconds
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kc5mvAAPraI

GLock fixed their drop safe failures over a couple decades ago. Now
they've got something worse to contend with to modify their design. The
user can't control the aim under full auto, so it's for sweeping through
crowds. Can't see another use than a crowd killer.

AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:

> On 9/3/2022 1:29 AM, VanguardLH wrote:
>
>> What amazes me is the control a cop has to NOT fire his drawn weapon
>> and instead try to take the /suspect/ alive.
>
> That was not the policy of my department. Once the department policy was
> met for use of lethal force our training was to shoot center mass to
> bring the suspect down so that he was no longer a threat. Life or death
> was not a consideration.

I remember an article, and a video but only of part of the encounter,
where some boys drove up alongside another car, pointed a handgun out
their window at a woman and child in the other car. She ducked down and
drove blind through a red light. She called the cops and told them
where to find the kids since she knew them in the same neighborhood.
The cops arrive to find the kids laughing, waving their handguns around,
got out of their squad cars to brace behind the door and aim over the
hood, and yelled repeatedly at the kids to drop their weapons. The kids
did not comply after many repeated demands from the cops. Finally they
laid down the handguns on their driveway, the cops approached, and
cuffed them. Turned out the handguns were replica BB guns, but the
woman and cops had no way to tell. Unbelievable how stupid the kids
were to drop their guns, but even more amazing was how the cops gave the
kids so many chances to comply without firing. They kept laughing after
the cops repeated about 4 times to lay down the weapons. Only after
they stopped laughing did they comply. They were joking, but they
really thought the cops showed up to join in their gag? They were
charged with robbery (since threat of harm is also robbery), and
probably other charges, but infuriatingly got off the charges because
they were underage and their first [recorded] offense.

I've seen were cops were under fire by what appeared to be a highly
disturbed shooter. Holes in his windows, holes in their cars, holes
elsewhere, and they still didn't fire. They considered it a success to
apprehend alive the guy.

>> With the fight or flee response, you choose to flee, I choose to
>> fight.
>
> Back to the movies?

No, back to my personality acquired over a lifetime of 66 years versus
yours and others. I've caught fire while putting out a fire, ran
outside to roll out the flames, ignored the pain, and ran back into the
fire to continue putting it out until the fire truck showed up. I'm not
afraid of walking around the skeleton (girders) of a skyscraper or the
framing when building a house. You won't me screaming during a fall,
just an "Ah, fuck." When I went scuba diving in the Keys, I'd chase
sharks and stingrays. The stingray was buried under the sand, I flicked
with my flipper to get it moving, and it circled to strafe us. I first
got paired with a diving partner who owned a scuba shop in Texas and
boasted about her low air consumption. Thought she last longer than
most. I'm comfortable when diving, so don't use up as much air. Then I
got paired with a a guy who was a Seal, and our dive lasted much longer
because he was also comfortable underwater due to his training. The
sharks were nurse sharks, still have sandpaper skin, but I had on a full
neoprene wetsuit. Only thing that got me was a sea urchin that pierced
me above my eyebrow as I went under an arch of coral.

Sorry to burst your berating bubble, but I don't fear like others. My
anxiety/fear threshold level is higher. I don't think my pain threshold
is any higher, but I seem to ignore it better in an emergency than
others, and deal with it afterward. I was the guy in a multi-car
accident bleeding from the forehead putting out the road flares and
directing traffic around the accident (flares at top of hill, accident
beyond the hill, so cars keep crashing in on the glare ice). Folks
would inch by looking at me, like "Geez, and he's the one directing
traffic?" After the ambulance and cops finally showed up, I went to the
hospital where they wanted to put in 2 suctures because there wasn't
much skin left to stitch, but told them to skip it and just bandage it.
They said the scar would be bigger (compared to just 2 stitches?), but I
didn't care. 2 stitches would just be stupid and useless considering
the extend of damage. I later took a taxi home which was when I started
having the trauma shakes something like 2 hours after the collision.
The boob had problems with his taxi (would stay running), he dumped STP
into the carb which killed the taxi from starting again, and I told the
guy to call another taxi. He didn't want to lose the fare, but I told
him I could instead call the cops and charge him with endangerment, or
something, because I was getting the shakes. Don't know if it was from
trauma, or from the -18F weather (his car wasn't running, so no heat).
I had been going to my parents house to check on it while they were away
on vacation. I took the 2nd taxi to their home which was much closer
than mine, found the alarm was on, took a cordless phone outside to call
the cops who showed up very fast (didn't know the alarm was hooked to an
alert service), who checked the home, found a sunroom door was ajar, but
the house was empty. Then I treated my blood-soaked winter down jacket
with hydrogen peroxide, washed it in Era and cold water, and went to
sleep. The next day I posted a report on the outside of my cubicle of
why I was chewed up on my forehead, because I was tired of having to
recount the incident over and over. It was impressive to everyone but
me. There's a movie like that?

Know of movies about a single-engine plane with amphibious floats
(floats to land on water, drop-down wheels to land on land) that cannot
land on water or land because a wheel won't lock down or up (stuck
partway down), so I ditched the plane to land in a lake? Dad stayed in
the plane to land in the water fully expecting it to flip fuselage over
nose and sideways with the tumbling killing him, or knocking him out and
he'd drown. When I hit the water, felt like a 2x4 was slammed against
the soles of my feet, the water coming up felt like a knife edge going
up my body, and the lake water got pushed up my nose into my sinuses. I
think the drop was 60 feet since that was as close as Dad could get to
slow the plane under minimum speed for lift to take off after I jumped.
I swam to shore, found the dock boy, Joe. We took boats out with a line
between with the intent of snagging over the floats to increase drag
thereby reducing the effect of the halfway-down wheel's drag hoping the
plan wouldn't flip, or just a nose flip. When the plane caught the
rope, both of use got thrown inside the boats that jerked foward. Joe
got injured by his back hitting the metal seat edge. The plan didn't
flip, but it made a 130-degree sharp turn in the water. Surprised
everyone. Dad piloted the plane to the dock where I was continuously
pumping out the right float with the wheel problem, while Dad and the
resort owner worked on the wheel. Joe was taken to the nearest hospital
60 miles away. Dad dropped his keys in the lake at the dock, and I have
to dive in to hunt with my hands in the murky water. On the way back
home, the engine lost power (not enough to maintain lift), and we landed
at an airfield. Got a mechanic, parts shipped, and he and Dad worked on
the engine to get it working, but not fixed. On the next leg, the
engine siezed, and we were forced to land in the river next to the
airport. Some drunken boob kept racing his speed boat ahead of us
causing a wake that could topple the plane. We circled and made another
couple of runs, but the boob would race up again. Dad called for the
water patrol. They ordered the guy to shore, but he refused.
Eventually they warned they would shoot the boat. They did using slugs,
and told the guy to run the boat ashore, or it would sink. He ran it
ashore. When we finally got to land, saw him getting arrested on shore.
I was 10 years old. There's a movie like that, too?

Another time we flew to California to see my uncle (one of Dad's 5
brothers) who was an aviation engineer (designed military aircraft). We
hit some very bad weather that not only buffeted around the plane but
also severe downdraft. If was only VFR down there, so we had to be
below or at cloud level to see the airfield. We were flying over Baja
California in the clouds with little time to see when the mountains came
up. A family was behind us: pilot, wife, 2 kids, and a dog. We would
radio back when we had to veer due to mountains. They were hitting the
same severe weather we had. No navigational radios back then down
there, so flying farther out over the ocean wasn't a choice without high
risk of getting lost out there. There was a scream of joy from them
when we reporting finding the airfield. That pilot reported the plane
had holes due to hail (cloth covered, not metal), was losing altitude,
the wife was sobbing, the kids were crying, and the dog had peed and
shit inside the plane. We landed at the old (wrong) airfield which had
soft sand. Uncle Duane and I had to get out to push on the struts to
get out of the sand. Oh joy, in line with a sandblaster. The other
plane had to order fabric to put over the front edge of the wings to
cover the critical damage. Until we were about to land, I was in the
back seat (two pipe and cloth hammock) and asleep. What was I going to
do if the plane crashed? I could fly a bit, but not takeoff or land.
Me screaming or afraid wasn't going to change anything if the plane
crashed. Nothing I could do, so I slept. My uncle was white-knuckled
holding onto a strap at the front window pillar. He was usually very
vocal, but the farther we got into the bad weather, the quieter he got.
Were we stayed that night had no window, just holes in the walls for
windows. Dad and I went to sleep in our skivies. Uncle had his sheets
and blankets, our sheets and blankets, the spare blankets, and wore his
clothes, coat, and hat, and still got no sleep because he was so cold.
In the morning, we said good morning to him, he leered at us and said,
"You fucking Eskimos". We went over to the other plane to repair the
fabric. We let the other pilot clean up the dog's mess.

VanguardLH wrote:

> AJL wrote:
>
>> Alan wrote:
>>
>>> [something about guns]
>> >> [something about guns]
>
> [something about guns]

You guys are doing a wonderful job of promoting your country ...