On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 09:06:14 -0400, Alain Fournier
<alain245@videotron.ca> wrote:

>On Aug/12/2022 at 07:56, Doctor Who wrote :
>> On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 06:54:22 -0400, Alain Fournier
>> <alain245@videotron.ca> wrote:
>
>>> Is there any reason why the oven has that thermal effect, but your PNN
>>> that you heat to 220?C would not have a thermal effect?
>>>
>>>
>>> Alain Fournier
>>
>> yes, first, the thrust is growing with a particular graph
>> http://www.asps.it/trustgra1.jpg
>>
>> This graphic means the thrust grows at parity of power.
>>
>> no thermal effect can achieve that.
>
>I already told you, that graph looks very much to what one would expect
>if the thrust is from a thermal effect. The thrust increases with time
>after putting the power on, that seems to be because once power is on,
>the heat increases with time. Then with power off, you still have some
>thrust. After cutting off power you have thrust that decreases with
>time. That seems to be because the thing is still hot but cooling down.
>Why would your thruster keep on providing thrust with the power off.
>When I cut off the power to the engine of my car, I get zero thrust, the
>thrust doesn't decrease with time, it goes to zero (I have an electric
>car, the engine does not run at a lower regime when I release the
>accelerator). And if I give let's say 20 kW of power to my engine, I get
>constant thrust from the moment I give it 20 kW, it does not increase
>with time at a constant power level.
>
>
>Alain Fournier

ah you told me already, but you are wrong.

On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 16:07:10 +0300, om@iki.fi (Otto J. Makela) wrote:

>Doctor Who <doc@tardis.org> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 06:54:22 -0400, Alain Fournier
>> <alain245@videotron.ca> wrote:
>>> Is there any reason why the oven has that thermal effect, but your
>>> PNN that you heat to 220°C would not have a thermal effect?
>>
>> yes, first, the thrust is growing with a particular graph
>> http://www.asps.it/trustgra1.jpg
>>
>> This graphic means the thrust grows at parity of power.
>> no thermal effect can achieve that.
>
>I'd like to point out that the fact that the "thrust" slowly grows up
>after power is switched on, and then slowly ramps down after power is
>switched off looks very much like a thermal effect.

wrong again,

no thermal effect can grow thrust in time at parity of power.

Doctor Who <doc@tardis.org> wrote:

> On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 16:07:10 +0300, om@iki.fi (Otto J. Makela) wrote:
>>Doctor Who <doc@tardis.org> wrote:
>>> yes, first, the thrust is growing with a particular graph
>>> http://www.asps.it/trustgra1.jpg
>>>
>>> This graphic means the thrust grows at parity of power.
>>> no thermal effect can achieve that.
>>
>>I'd like to point out that the fact that the "thrust" slowly grows up
>>after power is switched on, and then slowly ramps down after power is
>>switched off looks very much like a thermal effect.
>
> wrong again,
> no thermal effect can grow thrust in time at parity of power.

You already said that, but unfortunately I don't quite understand what
you mean by that. The issue probably stems from the fact that neither of
us is a native English speaker. Can you please try to expand on this?

--
/* * * Otto J. Makela <om@iki.fi> * * * * * * * * * */
/* Phone: +358 40 765 5772, ICBM: N 60 10' E 24 55' */
/* Mail: Mechelininkatu 26 B 27, FI-00100 Helsinki */
/* * * Computers Rule 01001111 01001011 * * * * * * */

On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 16:27:42 +0300, om@iki.fi (Otto J. Makela) wrote:

>Doctor Who <doc@tardis.org> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 16:07:10 +0300, om@iki.fi (Otto J. Makela) wrote:
>>>Doctor Who <doc@tardis.org> wrote:
>>>> yes, first, the thrust is growing with a particular graph
>>>> http://www.asps.it/trustgra1.jpg
>>>>
>>>> This graphic means the thrust grows at parity of power.
>>>> no thermal effect can achieve that.
>>>
>>>I'd like to point out that the fact that the "thrust" slowly grows up
>>>after power is switched on, and then slowly ramps down after power is
>>>switched off looks very much like a thermal effect.
>>
>> wrong again,
>> no thermal effect can grow thrust in time at parity of power.
>
>You already said that, but unfortunately I don't quite understand what
>you mean by that. The issue probably stems from the fact that neither of
>us is a native English speaker. Can you please try to expand on this?

acceleration increases in time with the same power output.

On Aug/12/2022 at 09:27, Otto J. Makela wrote :
> Doctor Who <doc@tardis.org> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 16:07:10 +0300, om@iki.fi (Otto J. Makela) wrote:
>>> Doctor Who <doc@tardis.org> wrote:
>>>> yes, first, the thrust is growing with a particular graph
>>>> http://www.asps.it/trustgra1.jpg
>>>>
>>>> This graphic means the thrust grows at parity of power.
>>>> no thermal effect can achieve that.
>>>
>>> I'd like to point out that the fact that the "thrust" slowly grows up
>>> after power is switched on, and then slowly ramps down after power is
>>> switched off looks very much like a thermal effect.
>>
>> wrong again,
>> no thermal effect can grow thrust in time at parity of power.
>
> You already said that, but unfortunately I don't quite understand what
> you mean by that. The issue probably stems from the fact that neither of
> us is a native English speaker. Can you please try to expand on this?

(Doctor Who: I am somewhat speculating about the meaning of what you
said. If what you meant is different, I'm sorry for misleading the group
on what you meant. If so please do rephrase what you mean.)

Maybe because I can speak Italian, I think I understand what he means. I
think that he thinks that a thermal effect could not have thrust
increasing while the power source is maintained at a constant level (in
this case the power is constant at 250 W).

My opinion is the opposite, a thermal effect would indeed see thrust
increase with time, or more precisely thrust increases with temperature
and the temperature would increase with time.

Alain Fournier

On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 10:34:48 -0400, Alain Fournier
<alain245@videotron.ca> wrote:

>On Aug/12/2022 at 09:27, Otto J. Makela wrote :
>> Doctor Who <doc@tardis.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 16:07:10 +0300, om@iki.fi (Otto J. Makela) wrote:
>>>> Doctor Who <doc@tardis.org> wrote:
>>>>> yes, first, the thrust is growing with a particular graph
>>>>> http://www.asps.it/trustgra1.jpg
>>>>>
>>>>> This graphic means the thrust grows at parity of power.
>>>>> no thermal effect can achieve that.
>>>>
>>>> I'd like to point out that the fact that the "thrust" slowly grows up
>>>> after power is switched on, and then slowly ramps down after power is
>>>> switched off looks very much like a thermal effect.
>>>
>>> wrong again,
>>> no thermal effect can grow thrust in time at parity of power.
>>
>> You already said that, but unfortunately I don't quite understand what
>> you mean by that. The issue probably stems from the fact that neither of
>> us is a native English speaker. Can you please try to expand on this?
>
>(Doctor Who: I am somewhat speculating about the meaning of what you
>said. If what you meant is different, I'm sorry for misleading the group
>on what you meant. If so please do rephrase what you mean.)
>
>Maybe because I can speak Italian, I think I understand what he means. I
>think that he thinks that a thermal effect could not have thrust
>increasing while the power source is maintained at a constant level (in
>this case the power is constant at 250 W).
>
>My opinion is the opposite, a thermal effect would indeed see thrust
>increase with time, or more precisely thrust increases with temperature
>and the temperature would increase with time.
>
>
>Alain Fournier

But Mr. Fournier, you are talking about you opinion, not about an
experiment done with all the necessary due diligence.

We talk about an experiment of physics, not opinions.

On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 10:34:48 -0400, Alain Fournier
<alain245@videotron.ca> wrote:

>On Aug/12/2022 at 09:27, Otto J. Makela wrote :
>> Doctor Who <doc@tardis.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 16:07:10 +0300, om@iki.fi (Otto J. Makela) wrote:
>>>> Doctor Who <doc@tardis.org> wrote:
>>>>> yes, first, the thrust is growing with a particular graph
>>>>> http://www.asps.it/trustgra1.jpg
>>>>>
>>>>> This graphic means the thrust grows at parity of power.
>>>>> no thermal effect can achieve that.
>>>>
>>>> I'd like to point out that the fact that the "thrust" slowly grows up
>>>> after power is switched on, and then slowly ramps down after power is
>>>> switched off looks very much like a thermal effect.
>>>
>>> wrong again,
>>> no thermal effect can grow thrust in time at parity of power.
>>
>> You already said that, but unfortunately I don't quite understand what
>> you mean by that. The issue probably stems from the fact that neither of
>> us is a native English speaker. Can you please try to expand on this?
>
>(Doctor Who: I am somewhat speculating about the meaning of what you
>said. If what you meant is different, I'm sorry for misleading the group
>on what you meant. If so please do rephrase what you mean.)
>
>Maybe because I can speak Italian, I think I understand what he means. I
>think that he thinks that a thermal effect could not have thrust
>increasing while the power source is maintained at a constant level (in
>this case the power is constant at 250 W).
>
>My opinion is the opposite, a thermal effect would indeed see thrust
>increase with time, or more precisely thrust increases with temperature
>and the temperature would increase with time.
>
>
>Alain Fournier

try to make the experiment and tell us the result.
try to achieve 20 grams of thrust with a dummy load.

On Aug/12/2022 at 10:57, Doctor Who wrote :
> On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 10:34:48 -0400, Alain Fournier
> <alain245@videotron.ca> wrote:
>
>> On Aug/12/2022 at 09:27, Otto J. Makela wrote :
>>> Doctor Who <doc@tardis.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 16:07:10 +0300, om@iki.fi (Otto J. Makela) wrote:
>>>>> Doctor Who <doc@tardis.org> wrote:
>>>>>> yes, first, the thrust is growing with a particular graph
>>>>>> http://www.asps.it/trustgra1.jpg
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This graphic means the thrust grows at parity of power.
>>>>>> no thermal effect can achieve that.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd like to point out that the fact that the "thrust" slowly grows up
>>>>> after power is switched on, and then slowly ramps down after power is
>>>>> switched off looks very much like a thermal effect.
>>>>
>>>> wrong again,
>>>> no thermal effect can grow thrust in time at parity of power.
>>>
>>> You already said that, but unfortunately I don't quite understand what
>>> you mean by that. The issue probably stems from the fact that neither of
>>> us is a native English speaker. Can you please try to expand on this?
>>
>> (Doctor Who: I am somewhat speculating about the meaning of what you
>> said. If what you meant is different, I'm sorry for misleading the group
>> on what you meant. If so please do rephrase what you mean.)
>>
>> Maybe because I can speak Italian, I think I understand what he means. I
>> think that he thinks that a thermal effect could not have thrust
>> increasing while the power source is maintained at a constant level (in
>> this case the power is constant at 250 W).
>>
>> My opinion is the opposite, a thermal effect would indeed see thrust
>> increase with time, or more precisely thrust increases with temperature
>> and the temperature would increase with time.
>>
>>
>> Alain Fournier
>
> try to make the experiment and tell us the result.
> try to achieve 20 grams of thrust with a dummy load.

I told you. I get more thrust than that with my hot oven when I leave
the door ajar.

Similar experiments have been done by others. You are not the first to
produce thrust by thermal effect.

Alain Fournier

On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 11:06:53 -0400, Alain Fournier
<alain245@videotron.ca> wrote:

>On Aug/12/2022 at 10:57, Doctor Who wrote :
>> On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 10:34:48 -0400, Alain Fournier
>> <alain245@videotron.ca> wrote:
>>
>>> On Aug/12/2022 at 09:27, Otto J. Makela wrote :
>>>> Doctor Who <doc@tardis.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 16:07:10 +0300, om@iki.fi (Otto J. Makela) wrote:
>>>>>> Doctor Who <doc@tardis.org> wrote:
>>>>>>> yes, first, the thrust is growing with a particular graph
>>>>>>> http://www.asps.it/trustgra1.jpg
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This graphic means the thrust grows at parity of power.
>>>>>>> no thermal effect can achieve that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'd like to point out that the fact that the "thrust" slowly grows up
>>>>>> after power is switched on, and then slowly ramps down after power is
>>>>>> switched off looks very much like a thermal effect.
>>>>>
>>>>> wrong again,
>>>>> no thermal effect can grow thrust in time at parity of power.
>>>>
>>>> You already said that, but unfortunately I don't quite understand what
>>>> you mean by that. The issue probably stems from the fact that neither of
>>>> us is a native English speaker. Can you please try to expand on this?
>>>
>>> (Doctor Who: I am somewhat speculating about the meaning of what you
>>> said. If what you meant is different, I'm sorry for misleading the group
>>> on what you meant. If so please do rephrase what you mean.)
>>>
>>> Maybe because I can speak Italian, I think I understand what he means. I
>>> think that he thinks that a thermal effect could not have thrust
>>> increasing while the power source is maintained at a constant level (in
>>> this case the power is constant at 250 W).
>>>
>>> My opinion is the opposite, a thermal effect would indeed see thrust
>>> increase with time, or more precisely thrust increases with temperature
>>> and the temperature would increase with time.
>>>
>>>
>>> Alain Fournier
>>
>> try to make the experiment and tell us the result.
>> try to achieve 20 grams of thrust with a dummy load.
>
>I told you. I get more thrust than that with my hot oven when I leave
>the door ajar.
>
>Similar experiments have been done by others. You are not the first to
>produce thrust by thermal effect.
>
>
>Alain Fournier

I conclude this conversation by stating that you understand nothing of
electrodynamics.

On Sat, 13 Aug 2022 12:48:37 -0700 (PDT), pnn calmagorod
<calmagorod@gmail.com> wrote:

>Il giorno mercoledì 10 agosto 2022 alle 19:47:17 UTC+2 Doctor Who ha scritto:
>> On Wed, 10 Aug 2022 10:42:51 -0700 (PDT), pnn calmagorod
>> <calma...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Il giorno mercoledì 10 agosto 2022 alle 18:48:34 UTC+2 Doctor Who ha scritto:
>> >> On Wed, 10 Aug 2022 12:43:12 -0400, Alain Fournier
>> >> <alai...@videotron.ca> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >On Aug/10/2022 at 11:20, pnn calmagorod wrote :
>> >> >> Il giorno mercoledì 10 agosto 2022 alle 16:49:06 UTC+2 Otto J. Makela ha scritto:
>> >> >>> Doctor Who <d...@tardis.org> wrote:
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>> On Wed, 10 Aug 2022 17:42:09 +0300, o...@iki.fi (Otto J. Makela) wrote:
>> >> >>>>> Alain Fournier <alai...@videotron.ca> wrote:
>> >> >>>>>> You haven't worded that right. Thermal effects can produce real
>> >> >>>>>> thrust, not just illusion of thrust. Of course such thrust
>> >> >>>>>> disappears in a vacuum.
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>> Indeed, you are correct. Sorry for the inaccuracy, I should have said
>> >> >>>>> "thermal effects, which produce the illusion of a reactionless drive".
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> which isn't our case!
>> >> >>> Unfortunately, still to be proven. We'll be suitably impressed once
>> >> >>> you are able to reproduce the claimed thrust effects in a vacuum.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> H.Lorentz obtained nobel prize for his Lorentz force without no experiments in vacuum :-)
>> >> >>
>> >> >> more i never seem the measures of gold weight on a scale under vacuum :-)
>> >> >>
>> >> >> You dont't want see the elementary facts then invent ridicoulus and very expensive for us conditions.
>> >> >> Then why with your allucinan theories don't reply to this? :
>> >> >>
>> >> >> with Asps PNN (with batteries .. and remote control) if on a scale we have thrust in a direction ... at 180 degree we have ANTI thrust :-)
>> >> >> we repeat this many times :-)
>> >> >> so you must invent something of realistic to explain such MANY facts :-)
>> >> >
>> >> >If you heat one side of your gizmo more than the other side you will
>> >> >push air molecules harder on one side than on the other side. This will
>> >> >give you some thrust. If you turn your gizmo 180 degrees, you will have
>> >> >thrust in the other direction. You can repeat that as many times as you
>> >> >want. That is not non-Newtonian propulsion.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >Alain Fournier
>> >> we insist that the thrust is due to the electromagnetic impulse, no
>> >> thermal effect can achieve such a thrust measured on a scale in both
>> >> directions (up and down).
>> >
>> >Secondo questo imbecille col botto uno scaldino a batterie e con telecomando si alleggerisce o appesantisce su una bilancia ...
>> >per la variazione di massa dovrebbe essere una bomba atomica :-)
>> >Non c'è utilità a parlare con questi deficienti TOTALI
>> >
>> >e lallo
>> infatti, arragliano come i gotha, io li inserirei nella gothalist
>> majalagarden!
>
>sono zero di zero ...non posso perdere troppo tempo con questi imbecilli rincoglioniti dalle scorregge dei razzi
>
>e lallo
>>
>> e lallo

anche io ho deciso di tagliare corto, sono troppo ossessionati dagli
effetti termici del cazzo.

e lallo

Doctor Who <doc@tardis.org> wrote:

> On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 16:27:42 +0300, om@iki.fi (Otto J. Makela) wrote:
>>Doctor Who <doc@tardis.org> wrote:
>>> wrong again,
>>> no thermal effect can grow thrust in time at parity of power.
>>
>>You already said that, but unfortunately I don't quite understand what
>>you mean by that. The issue probably stems from the fact that neither of
>>us is a native English speaker. Can you please try to expand on this?
>
> acceleration increases in time with the same power output.

This is exactly what one would expect of a thermal effect: the "thrust"
increases as the device gets warmer, and then once power is switched off
starts slowly falling as the device cools down.

What I would expect of a non-thermal thrust effect is that it starts
(at least nearly) immediately as power is applied and also dies down
almost immediately when power is switched off.

If this is a thermal effect, at some device temperature there should
come a saturation of "thrust" produced, but this point may be beyond
what you can safely test without damaging your electronics.

One test that might yield us some interesting data points is to plot how
well the device temperature correlates with the "thrust" produced.
Contactless infrared thermometers exist.

--
/* * * Otto J. Makela <om@iki.fi> * * * * * * * * * */
/* Phone: +358 40 765 5772, ICBM: N 60 10' E 24 55' */
/* Mail: Mechelininkatu 26 B 27, FI-00100 Helsinki */
/* * * Computers Rule 01001111 01001011 * * * * * * */

On Mon, 15 Aug 2022 17:43:40 +0300, om@iki.fi (Otto J. Makela) wrote:

>Doctor Who <doc@tardis.org> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 16:27:42 +0300, om@iki.fi (Otto J. Makela) wrote:
>>>Doctor Who <doc@tardis.org> wrote:
>>>> wrong again,
>>>> no thermal effect can grow thrust in time at parity of power.
>>>
>>>You already said that, but unfortunately I don't quite understand what
>>>you mean by that. The issue probably stems from the fact that neither of
>>>us is a native English speaker. Can you please try to expand on this?
>>
>> acceleration increases in time with the same power output.
>
>This is exactly what one would expect of a thermal effect: the "thrust"
>increases as the device gets warmer, and then once power is switched off
>starts slowly falling as the device cools down.
>
>What I would expect of a non-thermal thrust effect is that it starts
>(at least nearly) immediately as power is applied and also dies down
>almost immediately when power is switched off.
>
>If this is a thermal effect, at some device temperature there should
>come a saturation of "thrust" produced, but this point may be beyond
>what you can safely test without damaging your electronics.
>
>One test that might yield us some interesting data points is to plot how
>well the device temperature correlates with the "thrust" produced.
>Contactless infrared thermometers exist.

do the experiment!

On Aug/15/2022 at 11:46, Doctor Who wrote :
> On Mon, 15 Aug 2022 17:43:40 +0300, om@iki.fi (Otto J. Makela) wrote:
>
>> Doctor Who <doc@tardis.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 16:27:42 +0300, om@iki.fi (Otto J. Makela) wrote:
>>>> Doctor Who <doc@tardis.org> wrote:
>>>>> wrong again,
>>>>> no thermal effect can grow thrust in time at parity of power.
>>>>
>>>> You already said that, but unfortunately I don't quite understand what
>>>> you mean by that. The issue probably stems from the fact that neither of
>>>> us is a native English speaker. Can you please try to expand on this?
>>>
>>> acceleration increases in time with the same power output.
>>
>> This is exactly what one would expect of a thermal effect: the "thrust"
>> increases as the device gets warmer, and then once power is switched off
>> starts slowly falling as the device cools down.
>>
>> What I would expect of a non-thermal thrust effect is that it starts
>> (at least nearly) immediately as power is applied and also dies down
>> almost immediately when power is switched off.
>>
>> If this is a thermal effect, at some device temperature there should
>> come a saturation of "thrust" produced, but this point may be beyond
>> what you can safely test without damaging your electronics.
>>
>> One test that might yield us some interesting data points is to plot how
>> well the device temperature correlates with the "thrust" produced.
>> Contactless infrared thermometers exist.
>
> do the experiment!

Why would he, or anyone of us, spend time, effort and money for that? We
don't care all that much about your gizmo. We think that you are wasting
your time on it. But that's not a problem for us, if you want to waste
your time, that's OK. Just don't expect us to waste too much time on it.

Alain Fournier

On Mon, 15 Aug 2022 12:51:22 -0400, Alain Fournier
<alain245@videotron.ca> wrote:

>On Aug/15/2022 at 11:46, Doctor Who wrote :
>> On Mon, 15 Aug 2022 17:43:40 +0300, om@iki.fi (Otto J. Makela) wrote:
>>
>>> Doctor Who <doc@tardis.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 16:27:42 +0300, om@iki.fi (Otto J. Makela) wrote:
>>>>> Doctor Who <doc@tardis.org> wrote:
>>>>>> wrong again,
>>>>>> no thermal effect can grow thrust in time at parity of power.
>>>>>
>>>>> You already said that, but unfortunately I don't quite understand what
>>>>> you mean by that. The issue probably stems from the fact that neither of
>>>>> us is a native English speaker. Can you please try to expand on this?
>>>>
>>>> acceleration increases in time with the same power output.
>>>
>>> This is exactly what one would expect of a thermal effect: the "thrust"
>>> increases as the device gets warmer, and then once power is switched off
>>> starts slowly falling as the device cools down.
>>>
>>> What I would expect of a non-thermal thrust effect is that it starts
>>> (at least nearly) immediately as power is applied and also dies down
>>> almost immediately when power is switched off.
>>>
>>> If this is a thermal effect, at some device temperature there should
>>> come a saturation of "thrust" produced, but this point may be beyond
>>> what you can safely test without damaging your electronics.
>>>
>>> One test that might yield us some interesting data points is to plot how
>>> well the device temperature correlates with the "thrust" produced.
>>> Contactless infrared thermometers exist.
>>
>> do the experiment!
>
>Why would he, or anyone of us, spend time, effort and money for that? We
>don't care all that much about your gizmo. We think that you are wasting
>your time on it. But that's not a problem for us, if you want to waste
>your time, that's OK. Just don't expect us to waste too much time on it.
>
>
>Alain Fournier

good bye

On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 11:06:53 -0400, Alain Fournier
<alain245@videotron.ca> wrote:

>On Aug/12/2022 at 10:57, Doctor Who wrote :
>> On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 10:34:48 -0400, Alain Fournier
>> <alain245@videotron.ca> wrote:
>>
>>> On Aug/12/2022 at 09:27, Otto J. Makela wrote :
>>>> Doctor Who <doc@tardis.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 16:07:10 +0300, om@iki.fi (Otto J. Makela) wrote:
>>>>>> Doctor Who <doc@tardis.org> wrote:
>>>>>>> yes, first, the thrust is growing with a particular graph
>>>>>>> http://www.asps.it/trustgra1.jpg
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This graphic means the thrust grows at parity of power.
>>>>>>> no thermal effect can achieve that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'd like to point out that the fact that the "thrust" slowly grows up
>>>>>> after power is switched on, and then slowly ramps down after power is
>>>>>> switched off looks very much like a thermal effect.
>>>>>
>>>>> wrong again,
>>>>> no thermal effect can grow thrust in time at parity of power.
>>>>
>>>> You already said that, but unfortunately I don't quite understand what
>>>> you mean by that. The issue probably stems from the fact that neither of
>>>> us is a native English speaker. Can you please try to expand on this?
>>>
>>> (Doctor Who: I am somewhat speculating about the meaning of what you
>>> said. If what you meant is different, I'm sorry for misleading the group
>>> on what you meant. If so please do rephrase what you mean.)
>>>
>>> Maybe because I can speak Italian, I think I understand what he means. I
>>> think that he thinks that a thermal effect could not have thrust
>>> increasing while the power source is maintained at a constant level (in
>>> this case the power is constant at 250 W).
>>>
>>> My opinion is the opposite, a thermal effect would indeed see thrust
>>> increase with time, or more precisely thrust increases with temperature
>>> and the temperature would increase with time.
>>>
>>>
>>> Alain Fournier
>>
>> try to make the experiment and tell us the result.
>> try to achieve 20 grams of thrust with a dummy load.
>
>I told you. I get more thrust than that with my hot oven when I leave
>the door ajar.
>
>Similar experiments have been done by others. You are not the first to
>produce thrust by thermal effect.
>
>
>Alain Fournier

the European Patent Office doesn't think like you as it has granted a
patent.

On Mon, 15 Aug 2022 19:29:50 +0200, Doctor Who <doc@tardis.org> wrote:

>On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 11:06:53 -0400, Alain Fournier
><alain245@videotron.ca> wrote:
>
>>On Aug/12/2022 at 10:57, Doctor Who wrote :
>>> On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 10:34:48 -0400, Alain Fournier
>>> <alain245@videotron.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Aug/12/2022 at 09:27, Otto J. Makela wrote :
>>>>> Doctor Who <doc@tardis.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 16:07:10 +0300, om@iki.fi (Otto J. Makela) wrote:
>>>>>>> Doctor Who <doc@tardis.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>> yes, first, the thrust is growing with a particular graph
>>>>>>>> http://www.asps.it/trustgra1.jpg
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This graphic means the thrust grows at parity of power.
>>>>>>>> no thermal effect can achieve that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'd like to point out that the fact that the "thrust" slowly grows up
>>>>>>> after power is switched on, and then slowly ramps down after power is
>>>>>>> switched off looks very much like a thermal effect.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> wrong again,
>>>>>> no thermal effect can grow thrust in time at parity of power.
>>>>>
>>>>> You already said that, but unfortunately I don't quite understand what
>>>>> you mean by that. The issue probably stems from the fact that neither of
>>>>> us is a native English speaker. Can you please try to expand on this?
>>>>
>>>> (Doctor Who: I am somewhat speculating about the meaning of what you
>>>> said. If what you meant is different, I'm sorry for misleading the group
>>>> on what you meant. If so please do rephrase what you mean.)
>>>>
>>>> Maybe because I can speak Italian, I think I understand what he means. I
>>>> think that he thinks that a thermal effect could not have thrust
>>>> increasing while the power source is maintained at a constant level (in
>>>> this case the power is constant at 250 W).
>>>>
>>>> My opinion is the opposite, a thermal effect would indeed see thrust
>>>> increase with time, or more precisely thrust increases with temperature
>>>> and the temperature would increase with time.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Alain Fournier
>>>
>>> try to make the experiment and tell us the result.
>>> try to achieve 20 grams of thrust with a dummy load.
>>
>>I told you. I get more thrust than that with my hot oven when I leave
>>the door ajar.
>>
>>Similar experiments have been done by others. You are not the first to
>>produce thrust by thermal effect.
>>
>>
>>Alain Fournier
>
>the European Patent Office doesn't think like you as it has granted a
>patent.

the patent has the following properties:

- Novelty

- Industrial Application

- Creative activity

Le Aug/15/2022 à 13:29, Doctor Who a écrit :
> On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 11:06:53 -0400, Alain Fournier
> <alain245@videotron.ca> wrote:
>
>> On Aug/12/2022 at 10:57, Doctor Who wrote :
>>> On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 10:34:48 -0400, Alain Fournier
>>> <alain245@videotron.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Aug/12/2022 at 09:27, Otto J. Makela wrote :
>>>>> Doctor Who <doc@tardis.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 16:07:10 +0300, om@iki.fi (Otto J. Makela) wrote:
>>>>>>> Doctor Who <doc@tardis.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>> yes, first, the thrust is growing with a particular graph
>>>>>>>> http://www.asps.it/trustgra1.jpg
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This graphic means the thrust grows at parity of power.
>>>>>>>> no thermal effect can achieve that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'd like to point out that the fact that the "thrust" slowly grows up
>>>>>>> after power is switched on, and then slowly ramps down after power is
>>>>>>> switched off looks very much like a thermal effect.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> wrong again,
>>>>>> no thermal effect can grow thrust in time at parity of power.
>>>>>
>>>>> You already said that, but unfortunately I don't quite understand what
>>>>> you mean by that. The issue probably stems from the fact that neither of
>>>>> us is a native English speaker. Can you please try to expand on this?
>>>>
>>>> (Doctor Who: I am somewhat speculating about the meaning of what you
>>>> said. If what you meant is different, I'm sorry for misleading the group
>>>> on what you meant. If so please do rephrase what you mean.)
>>>>
>>>> Maybe because I can speak Italian, I think I understand what he means. I
>>>> think that he thinks that a thermal effect could not have thrust
>>>> increasing while the power source is maintained at a constant level (in
>>>> this case the power is constant at 250 W).
>>>>
>>>> My opinion is the opposite, a thermal effect would indeed see thrust
>>>> increase with time, or more precisely thrust increases with temperature
>>>> and the temperature would increase with time.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Alain Fournier
>>>
>>> try to make the experiment and tell us the result.
>>> try to achieve 20 grams of thrust with a dummy load.
>>
>> I told you. I get more thrust than that with my hot oven when I leave
>> the door ajar.
>>
>> Similar experiments have been done by others. You are not the first to
>> produce thrust by thermal effect.
>>
>>
>> Alain Fournier
>
> the European Patent Office doesn't think like you as it has granted a
> patent.

Nope. The patent office does not verify that an invention does work. It
is the responsibility of the inventor to verify that his invention
works. If you buy something, let's say a computer, and it does not work.
You can't sue the patent office even if they patented the computer, the
patent does not in any way guaranty the thing works. You can only sue
the computer maker. It is the responsibility of the seller to verify the
thing works, not the responsibility of the patent office.

Alain Fournier

On Mon, 15 Aug 2022 14:43:06 -0400, Alain Fournier
<alain245@videotron.ca> wrote:

>Le Aug/15/2022 à 13:29, Doctor Who a écrit :
>> On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 11:06:53 -0400, Alain Fournier
>> <alain245@videotron.ca> wrote:
>>
>>> On Aug/12/2022 at 10:57, Doctor Who wrote :
>>>> On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 10:34:48 -0400, Alain Fournier
>>>> <alain245@videotron.ca> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Aug/12/2022 at 09:27, Otto J. Makela wrote :
>>>>>> Doctor Who <doc@tardis.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 16:07:10 +0300, om@iki.fi (Otto J. Makela) wrote:
>>>>>>>> Doctor Who <doc@tardis.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> yes, first, the thrust is growing with a particular graph
>>>>>>>>> http://www.asps.it/trustgra1.jpg
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This graphic means the thrust grows at parity of power.
>>>>>>>>> no thermal effect can achieve that.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'd like to point out that the fact that the "thrust" slowly grows up
>>>>>>>> after power is switched on, and then slowly ramps down after power is
>>>>>>>> switched off looks very much like a thermal effect.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> wrong again,
>>>>>>> no thermal effect can grow thrust in time at parity of power.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You already said that, but unfortunately I don't quite understand what
>>>>>> you mean by that. The issue probably stems from the fact that neither of
>>>>>> us is a native English speaker. Can you please try to expand on this?
>>>>>
>>>>> (Doctor Who: I am somewhat speculating about the meaning of what you
>>>>> said. If what you meant is different, I'm sorry for misleading the group
>>>>> on what you meant. If so please do rephrase what you mean.)
>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe because I can speak Italian, I think I understand what he means. I
>>>>> think that he thinks that a thermal effect could not have thrust
>>>>> increasing while the power source is maintained at a constant level (in
>>>>> this case the power is constant at 250 W).
>>>>>
>>>>> My opinion is the opposite, a thermal effect would indeed see thrust
>>>>> increase with time, or more precisely thrust increases with temperature
>>>>> and the temperature would increase with time.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Alain Fournier
>>>>
>>>> try to make the experiment and tell us the result.
>>>> try to achieve 20 grams of thrust with a dummy load.
>>>
>>> I told you. I get more thrust than that with my hot oven when I leave
>>> the door ajar.
>>>
>>> Similar experiments have been done by others. You are not the first to
>>> produce thrust by thermal effect.
>>>
>>>
>>> Alain Fournier
>>
>> the European Patent Office doesn't think like you as it has granted a
>> patent.
>
>Nope. The patent office does not verify that an invention does work. It
>is the responsibility of the inventor to verify that his invention
>works. If you buy something, let's say a computer, and it does not work.
>You can't sue the patent office even if they patented the computer, the
>patent does not in any way guaranty the thing works. You can only sue
>the computer maker. It is the responsibility of the seller to verify the
>thing works, not the responsibility of the patent office.
>
>
>Alain Fournier

mavaffanculo

On Mon, 15 Aug 2022 14:43:06 -0400, Alain Fournier
<alain245@videotron.ca> wrote:

>Le Aug/15/2022 à 13:29, Doctor Who a écrit :
>> On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 11:06:53 -0400, Alain Fournier
>> <alain245@videotron.ca> wrote:
>>
>>> On Aug/12/2022 at 10:57, Doctor Who wrote :
>>>> On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 10:34:48 -0400, Alain Fournier
>>>> <alain245@videotron.ca> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Aug/12/2022 at 09:27, Otto J. Makela wrote :
>>>>>> Doctor Who <doc@tardis.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 16:07:10 +0300, om@iki.fi (Otto J. Makela) wrote:
>>>>>>>> Doctor Who <doc@tardis.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> yes, first, the thrust is growing with a particular graph
>>>>>>>>> http://www.asps.it/trustgra1.jpg
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This graphic means the thrust grows at parity of power.
>>>>>>>>> no thermal effect can achieve that.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'd like to point out that the fact that the "thrust" slowly grows up
>>>>>>>> after power is switched on, and then slowly ramps down after power is
>>>>>>>> switched off looks very much like a thermal effect.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> wrong again,
>>>>>>> no thermal effect can grow thrust in time at parity of power.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You already said that, but unfortunately I don't quite understand what
>>>>>> you mean by that. The issue probably stems from the fact that neither of
>>>>>> us is a native English speaker. Can you please try to expand on this?
>>>>>
>>>>> (Doctor Who: I am somewhat speculating about the meaning of what you
>>>>> said. If what you meant is different, I'm sorry for misleading the group
>>>>> on what you meant. If so please do rephrase what you mean.)
>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe because I can speak Italian, I think I understand what he means. I
>>>>> think that he thinks that a thermal effect could not have thrust
>>>>> increasing while the power source is maintained at a constant level (in
>>>>> this case the power is constant at 250 W).
>>>>>
>>>>> My opinion is the opposite, a thermal effect would indeed see thrust
>>>>> increase with time, or more precisely thrust increases with temperature
>>>>> and the temperature would increase with time.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Alain Fournier
>>>>
>>>> try to make the experiment and tell us the result.
>>>> try to achieve 20 grams of thrust with a dummy load.
>>>
>>> I told you. I get more thrust than that with my hot oven when I leave
>>> the door ajar.
>>>
>>> Similar experiments have been done by others. You are not the first to
>>> produce thrust by thermal effect.
>>>
>>>
>>> Alain Fournier
>>
>> the European Patent Office doesn't think like you as it has granted a
>> patent.
>
>Nope. The patent office does not verify that an invention does work. It
>is the responsibility of the inventor to verify that his invention
>works. If you buy something, let's say a computer, and it does not work.
>You can't sue the patent office even if they patented the computer, the
>patent does not in any way guaranty the thing works. You can only sue
>the computer maker. It is the responsibility of the seller to verify the
>thing works, not the responsibility of the patent office.
>
>
>Alain Fournier

you have been inserted into my list of idiots.

Doctor Who <doc@tardis.org> wrote:

> On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 11:06:53 -0400, Alain Fournier
> <alain245@videotron.ca> wrote:
>> Similar experiments have been done by others. You are not the
>> first to produce thrust by thermal effect.
>
> the European Patent Office doesn't think like you
> as it has granted a patent.

Firstly, a patent does not mean the process described there works.
The only exception to this have been perpetual motion devices, since the
hucksters selling those have been using "patented" as a sales incentive.

Secondly, what is the granted patent number, so we can look up details?

--
/* * * Otto J. Makela <om@iki.fi> * * * * * * * * * */
/* Phone: +358 40 765 5772, ICBM: N 60 10' E 24 55' */
/* Mail: Mechelininkatu 26 B 27, FI-00100 Helsinki */
/* * * Computers Rule 01001111 01001011 * * * * * * */

Doctor Who <doc@tardis.org> wrote:

> the patent has the following properties:
>
> - Novelty
> - Industrial Application
> - Creative activity

A patent does not have the following properties:

- Process or device guaranteed to work as described in the patent

--
/* * * Otto J. Makela <om@iki.fi> * * * * * * * * * */
/* Phone: +358 40 765 5772, ICBM: N 60 10' E 24 55' */
/* Mail: Mechelininkatu 26 B 27, FI-00100 Helsinki */
/* * * Computers Rule 01001111 01001011 * * * * * * */

On Wed, 17 Aug 2022 18:29:52 +0300, om@iki.fi (Otto J. Makela) wrote:

>Doctor Who <doc@tardis.org> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 11:06:53 -0400, Alain Fournier
>> <alain245@videotron.ca> wrote:
>>> Similar experiments have been done by others. You are not the
>>> first to produce thrust by thermal effect.
>>
>> the European Patent Office doesn't think like you
>> as it has granted a patent.
>
>Firstly, a patent does not mean the process described there works.
>The only exception to this have been perpetual motion devices, since the
>hucksters selling those have been using "patented" as a sales incentive.
>
>Secondly, what is the granted patent number, so we can look up details?

Dr. Lorenzo Marrucci of the University of Naples writes IN FACT:
"The fact that the Lorentz force ......................... can violate
Newton's 3rd principle (in its traditional formulation) is well known,
any physicist with good training knows this.
The reason (as Fabri also writes in the short paper he provided me)
.... the existence of a net resultant not zero on the V dipole seems to
me correct and plausible .......... ................................ "

Do you understand what makes them go wild?

Doctor Who <doc@tardis.org> wrote:

> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022 18:29:52 +0300, om@iki.fi (Otto J. Makela) wrote:
>>Doctor Who <doc@tardis.org> wrote:
>>> the European Patent Office doesn't think like you
>>> as it has granted a patent.
>> Firstly, a patent does not mean the process described there works.
>> The only exception to this have been perpetual motion devices, since
>> the hucksters selling those have been using "patented" as a sales
>> incentive.
>>
>> Secondly, what is the granted patent number, so we can look up
>> details?
>
> Dr. Lorenzo Marrucci of the University of Naples writes IN FACT:
> "The fact that the Lorentz force ......................... can
> violate Newton's 3rd principle (in its traditional formulation) is
> well known, any physicist with good training knows this. The
> reason (as Fabri also writes in the short paper he provided me)
> ... the existence of a net resultant not zero on the V dipole
> seems to me correct and plausible .......... "
> Do you understand what makes them go wild?

If the patent has already been granted, as you again claim above,
the process is under its protection, and there is absolutely no
reason to withhold its number from the public.

The only conclusion we can make of this is that there is (at least as
of yet) no patent. I look forward to you proving me wrong on this.

----

And for some reason you neglected to copy-paste the complete text,
ostensibly from professor Marrucci http://wpage.unina.it/lomarruc/

However, it should be compensated for by the unbalanced
emission of electromagnetic waves in the space surrounding
the dipole, so that the total momentum remains preserved. I
don’t have time to attempt an explicit calculation to
evaluate my claim in detail, but I’m pretty sure that’s the
case. This means that the experiment in question is not
wrong, indeed it is also interesting, but it is not as
revolutionary as you seem to think. In practice it is a form
of reaction propulsion in which there is no eject material
but in its place there are electromagnetic waves radiated in
the opposite direction to where you want to move. If this
principle could be made practical and energy efficient it
could perhaps be interesting for some applications.
-- https://neolegesmotus.com/2021/01/18/violation-of-momentum-conservation-in-high-energy-colliders/

He seems to be of the opinion that thrust COULD be produced by the
emission of electromagnetic waves in the space surrounding the dipole,
but that this is not "reactionless", following well-known laws of
preservation of momentum.

--
/* * * Otto J. Makela <om@iki.fi> * * * * * * * * * */
/* Phone: +358 40 765 5772, ICBM: N 60 10' E 24 55' */
/* Mail: Mechelininkatu 26 B 27, FI-00100 Helsinki */
/* * * Computers Rule 01001111 01001011 * * * * * * */

On Fri, 26 Aug 2022 18:17:42 +0300, om@iki.fi (Otto J. Makela) wrote:

>Doctor Who <doc@tardis.org> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022 18:29:52 +0300, om@iki.fi (Otto J. Makela) wrote:
>>>Doctor Who <doc@tardis.org> wrote:
>>>> the European Patent Office doesn't think like you
>>>> as it has granted a patent.
>>> Firstly, a patent does not mean the process described there works.
>>> The only exception to this have been perpetual motion devices, since
>>> the hucksters selling those have been using "patented" as a sales
>>> incentive.
>>>
>>> Secondly, what is the granted patent number, so we can look up
>>> details?
>>
>> Dr. Lorenzo Marrucci of the University of Naples writes IN FACT:
>> "The fact that the Lorentz force ......................... can
>> violate Newton's 3rd principle (in its traditional formulation) is
>> well known, any physicist with good training knows this. The
>> reason (as Fabri also writes in the short paper he provided me)
>> ... the existence of a net resultant not zero on the V dipole
>> seems to me correct and plausible .......... "
>> Do you understand what makes them go wild?
>
>If the patent has already been granted, as you again claim above,
>the process is under its protection, and there is absolutely no
>reason to withhold its number from the public.
>
>The only conclusion we can make of this is that there is (at least as
>of yet) no patent. I look forward to you proving me wrong on this.
>
>----
>
>And for some reason you neglected to copy-paste the complete text,
>ostensibly from professor Marrucci http://wpage.unina.it/lomarruc/
>
> However, it should be compensated for by the unbalanced
> emission of electromagnetic waves in the space surrounding
> the dipole, so that the total momentum remains preserved. I
> don’t have time to attempt an explicit calculation to
> evaluate my claim in detail, but I’m pretty sure that’s the
> case. This means that the experiment in question is not
> wrong, indeed it is also interesting, but it is not as
> revolutionary as you seem to think. In practice it is a form
> of reaction propulsion in which there is no eject material
> but in its place there are electromagnetic waves radiated in
> the opposite direction to where you want to move. If this
> principle could be made practical and energy efficient it
> could perhaps be interesting for some applications.
> -- https://neolegesmotus.com/2021/01/18/violation-of-momentum-conservation-in-high-energy-colliders/
>
>He seems to be of the opinion that thrust COULD be produced by the
>emission of electromagnetic waves in the space surrounding the dipole,
>but that this is not "reactionless", following well-known laws of
>preservation of momentum.

You are becoming unpleasant to me, and I will not talk to you anymore,
from now on the only comments you will see will be of PNN Calmagorod,
he is the project leader.

Doctor Who <doc@tardis.org> wrote:

> You are becoming unpleasant to me, and I will not talk to you anymore,
> from now on the only comments you will see will be of PNN Calmagorod,
> he is the project leader.

Is a question on the existence of a patent too embarrassing for you?

Also, you seem to misunderstand what "kill files" are in the Usenet context.

--
/* * * Otto J. Makela <om@iki.fi> * * * * * * * * * */
/* Phone: +358 40 765 5772, ICBM: N 60 10' E 24 55' */
/* Mail: Mechelininkatu 26 B 27, FI-00100 Helsinki */
/* * * Computers Rule 01001111 01001011 * * * * * * */