Attention helmet fans: Your helmet is no longer safe enough unless it
can automatically connect to your cell phone and automatically text your
chosen person for help.

https://www.performancebike.com/specialized-angi/cp711

Good golly, don't dare think of riding a bike without this critical
level of protection! Because even if you have a conventional helmet,
fluorescent clothing, elbow and knee pads, front and rear daytime
running lights, an electric bike horn, a six foot tall flippy flag, a
"protected" bike lane, an emergency contact bracelet and brakes that
will lock your wheel if you breath on the levers, you can NEVER be safe
enough!

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Friday, August 6, 2021 at 4:51:39 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> Attention helmet fans: Your helmet is no longer safe enough unless it
> can automatically connect to your cell phone and automatically text your
> chosen person for help.
>
> https://www.performancebike.com/specialized-angi/cp711
>
> Good golly, don't dare think of riding a bike without this critical
> level of protection! Because even if you have a conventional helmet,
> fluorescent clothing, elbow and knee pads, front and rear daytime
> running lights, an electric bike horn, a six foot tall flippy flag, a
> "protected" bike lane, an emergency contact bracelet and brakes that
> will lock your wheel if you breath on the levers, you can NEVER be safe
> enough!

Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but this is already a feature on Garmin bike computers -- the incident detection function that calls your wife when it senses a crash. That helmet sensor is made by Specialized, so it is the best, and you should get one -- or three. But if you want to complain generally about safety inflation, its a little late. That horse has left the barn. https://www.onstar.com/us/en/home/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQlpDiXPZHQ&ab_channel=hauntedgeorge There's an iPhone app. https://apps.apple.com/us/app/sosmart-automatic-car-crash-detection/id991589696

-- Jay Beattie.

On Saturday, August 7, 2021 at 2:26:40 AM UTC+2, jbeattie wrote:
> On Friday, August 6, 2021 at 4:51:39 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > Attention helmet fans: Your helmet is no longer safe enough unless it
> > can automatically connect to your cell phone and automatically text your
> > chosen person for help.
> >
> > https://www.performancebike.com/specialized-angi/cp711
> >
> > Good golly, don't dare think of riding a bike without this critical
> > level of protection! Because even if you have a conventional helmet,
> > fluorescent clothing, elbow and knee pads, front and rear daytime
> > running lights, an electric bike horn, a six foot tall flippy flag, a
> > "protected" bike lane, an emergency contact bracelet and brakes that
> > will lock your wheel if you breath on the levers, you can NEVER be safe
> > enough!
> Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but this is already a feature on Garmin bike computers -- the incident detection function that calls your wife when it senses a crash. That helmet sensor is made by Specialized, so it is the best, and you should get one -- or three. But if you want to complain generally about safety inflation, its a little late. That horse has left the barn. https://www.onstar.com/us/en/home/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQlpDiXPZHQ&ab_channel=hauntedgeorge There's an iPhone app. https://apps.apple.com/us/app/sosmart-automatic-car-crash-detection/id991589696
>
> -- Jay Beattie.

Or Strava beacon function, or Whatsapp I don't know how its called. Unbelievable how many people find this important/usefull and complain in the case of Garmin that it doesn't work well (false positives). They think it will help in case of a cardiac arrest. We couldn't save my riding buddy even with 3 doctor in our group riding along.

Lou

On Friday, August 6, 2021 at 10:50:49 PM UTC-7, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, August 7, 2021 at 2:26:40 AM UTC+2, jbeattie wrote:
> > On Friday, August 6, 2021 at 4:51:39 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > Attention helmet fans: Your helmet is no longer safe enough unless it
> > > can automatically connect to your cell phone and automatically text your
> > > chosen person for help.
> > >
> > > https://www.performancebike.com/specialized-angi/cp711
> > >
> > > Good golly, don't dare think of riding a bike without this critical
> > > level of protection! Because even if you have a conventional helmet,
> > > fluorescent clothing, elbow and knee pads, front and rear daytime
> > > running lights, an electric bike horn, a six foot tall flippy flag, a
> > > "protected" bike lane, an emergency contact bracelet and brakes that
> > > will lock your wheel if you breath on the levers, you can NEVER be safe
> > > enough!
> > Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but this is already a feature on Garmin bike computers -- the incident detection function that calls your wife when it senses a crash. That helmet sensor is made by Specialized, so it is the best, and you should get one -- or three. But if you want to complain generally about safety inflation, its a little late. That horse has left the barn. https://www.onstar.com/us/en/home/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQlpDiXPZHQ&ab_channel=hauntedgeorge There's an iPhone app. https://apps.apple.com/us/app/sosmart-automatic-car-crash-detection/id991589696
> >
> > -- Jay Beattie.
> Or Strava beacon function, or Whatsapp I don't know how its called. Unbelievable how many people find this important/usefull and complain in the case of Garmin that it doesn't work well (false positives). They think it will help in case of a cardiac arrest. We couldn't save my riding buddy even with 3 doctor in our group riding along.

I'm not sure what people believe anymore. On cyclingnews forum some obvious teenager said "if you're so good why aren't your stats posted on (some strava-like site)" I looked back through the string and i had never said I was good and never gave any numbers at all. I had given someone some advice on pedals I think.

On 8/6/2021 8:26 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> On Friday, August 6, 2021 at 4:51:39 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> Attention helmet fans: Your helmet is no longer safe enough unless it
>> can automatically connect to your cell phone and automatically text your
>> chosen person for help.
>>
>> https://www.performancebike.com/specialized-angi/cp711
>>
>> Good golly, don't dare think of riding a bike without this critical
>> level of protection! Because even if you have a conventional helmet,
>> fluorescent clothing, elbow and knee pads, front and rear daytime
>> running lights, an electric bike horn, a six foot tall flippy flag, a
>> "protected" bike lane, an emergency contact bracelet and brakes that
>> will lock your wheel if you breath on the levers, you can NEVER be safe
>> enough!
>
> Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but this is already a feature on Garmin bike computers -- the incident detection function that calls your wife when it senses a crash. That helmet sensor is made by Specialized, so it is the best, and you should get one -- or three. But if you want to complain generally about safety inflation, its a little late. That horse has left the barn. https://www.onstar.com/us/en/home/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQlpDiXPZHQ&ab_channel=hauntedgeorge There's an iPhone app. https://apps.apple.com/us/app/sosmart-automatic-car-crash-detection/id991589696

Oh, I know the horse has left the barn. It's roaming the property and
wrecking the landscaping.

And if that horse should trample someone, they'll be told "Well, you
should have been wearing your horse-trampling armor, ringing your
anti-horse bell and staying behind a horse-protective fence. You can't
be too safe!"

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Saturday, August 7, 2021 at 8:05:20 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 8/6/2021 8:26 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> > On Friday, August 6, 2021 at 4:51:39 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >> Attention helmet fans: Your helmet is no longer safe enough unless it
> >> can automatically connect to your cell phone and automatically text your
> >> chosen person for help.
> >>
> >> https://www.performancebike.com/specialized-angi/cp711
> >>
> >> Good golly, don't dare think of riding a bike without this critical
> >> level of protection! Because even if you have a conventional helmet,
> >> fluorescent clothing, elbow and knee pads, front and rear daytime
> >> running lights, an electric bike horn, a six foot tall flippy flag, a
> >> "protected" bike lane, an emergency contact bracelet and brakes that
> >> will lock your wheel if you breath on the levers, you can NEVER be safe
> >> enough!
> >
> > Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but this is already a feature on Garmin bike computers -- the incident detection function that calls your wife when it senses a crash. That helmet sensor is made by Specialized, so it is the best, and you should get one -- or three. But if you want to complain generally about safety inflation, its a little late. That horse has left the barn. https://www.onstar.com/us/en/home/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQlpDiXPZHQ&ab_channel=hauntedgeorge There's an iPhone app. https://apps.apple.com/us/app/sosmart-automatic-car-crash-detection/id991589696
> Oh, I know the horse has left the barn. It's roaming the property and
> wrecking the landscaping.
>
> And if that horse should trample someone, they'll be told "Well, you
> should have been wearing your horse-trampling armor, ringing your
> anti-horse bell and staying behind a horse-protective fence. You can't
> be too safe!"

I little breathless, no? And I don't even get the analogy. My friend has that incident detection thing on his Garmin, and it would go off whenever he hit a bump, so he shut it off. No angst, armor, horse-protective fences, etc.
And having these devices might actually encourage cycling in areas where one might feel a little sheepish about being alone, assuming there is a cell signal -- and a survivable injury. https://www.cxmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/2019OTGG_Adam_LapierreDSC_5467.jpg Beautify Ory-gun. Not everyone is rolling around in some Ohio village. OTOH, it would be kind of weird having a crash alarm for urban riding -- except in those places where people don't stop for wounded. Around here, you get a flat tire on one of the popular routes, and a thousand people ask whether you're O.K.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Saturday, August 7, 2021 at 6:53:52 PM UTC+2, jbeattie wrote:
> On Saturday, August 7, 2021 at 8:05:20 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 8/6/2021 8:26 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> > > On Friday, August 6, 2021 at 4:51:39 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > >> Attention helmet fans: Your helmet is no longer safe enough unless it
> > >> can automatically connect to your cell phone and automatically text your
> > >> chosen person for help.
> > >>
> > >> https://www.performancebike.com/specialized-angi/cp711
> > >>
> > >> Good golly, don't dare think of riding a bike without this critical
> > >> level of protection! Because even if you have a conventional helmet,
> > >> fluorescent clothing, elbow and knee pads, front and rear daytime
> > >> running lights, an electric bike horn, a six foot tall flippy flag, a
> > >> "protected" bike lane, an emergency contact bracelet and brakes that
> > >> will lock your wheel if you breath on the levers, you can NEVER be safe
> > >> enough!
> > >
> > > Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but this is already a feature on Garmin bike computers -- the incident detection function that calls your wife when it senses a crash. That helmet sensor is made by Specialized, so it is the best, and you should get one -- or three. But if you want to complain generally about safety inflation, its a little late. That horse has left the barn. https://www.onstar.com/us/en/home/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQlpDiXPZHQ&ab_channel=hauntedgeorge There's an iPhone app. https://apps.apple.com/us/app/sosmart-automatic-car-crash-detection/id991589696
> > Oh, I know the horse has left the barn. It's roaming the property and
> > wrecking the landscaping.
> >
> > And if that horse should trample someone, they'll be told "Well, you
> > should have been wearing your horse-trampling armor, ringing your
> > anti-horse bell and staying behind a horse-protective fence. You can't
> > be too safe!"
> I little breathless, no? And I don't even get the analogy. My friend has that incident detection thing on his Garmin, and it would go off whenever he hit a bump, so he shut it off. No angst, armor, horse-protective fences, etc.
> And having these devices might actually encourage cycling in areas where one might feel a little sheepish about being alone, assuming there is a cell signal -- and a survivable injury. https://www.cxmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/2019OTGG_Adam_LapierreDSC_5467.jpg Beautify Ory-gun. Not everyone is rolling around in some Ohio village. OTOH, it would be kind of weird having a crash alarm for urban riding -- except in those places where people don't stop for wounded. Around here, you get a flat tire on one of the popular routes, and a thousand people ask whether you're O.K.
>
> -- Jay Beattie.

Same here. We don’t have ‘middle of nowhere’ here. A tracking feature is silly.

Lou.

On 8/7/2021 12:53 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> On Saturday, August 7, 2021 at 8:05:20 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 8/6/2021 8:26 PM, jbeattie wrote:
>>> On Friday, August 6, 2021 at 4:51:39 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> Attention helmet fans: Your helmet is no longer safe enough unless it
>>>> can automatically connect to your cell phone and automatically text your
>>>> chosen person for help.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.performancebike.com/specialized-angi/cp711
>>>>
>>>> Good golly, don't dare think of riding a bike without this critical
>>>> level of protection! Because even if you have a conventional helmet,
>>>> fluorescent clothing, elbow and knee pads, front and rear daytime
>>>> running lights, an electric bike horn, a six foot tall flippy flag, a
>>>> "protected" bike lane, an emergency contact bracelet and brakes that
>>>> will lock your wheel if you breath on the levers, you can NEVER be safe
>>>> enough!
>>>
>>> Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but this is already a feature on Garmin bike computers -- the incident detection function that calls your wife when it senses a crash. That helmet sensor is made by Specialized, so it is the best, and you should get one -- or three. But if you want to complain generally about safety inflation, its a little late. That horse has left the barn. https://www.onstar.com/us/en/home/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQlpDiXPZHQ&ab_channel=hauntedgeorge There's an iPhone app. https://apps.apple.com/us/app/sosmart-automatic-car-crash-detection/id991589696
>> Oh, I know the horse has left the barn. It's roaming the property and
>> wrecking the landscaping.
>>
>> And if that horse should trample someone, they'll be told "Well, you
>> should have been wearing your horse-trampling armor, ringing your
>> anti-horse bell and staying behind a horse-protective fence. You can't
>> be too safe!"
>
> I little breathless, no? And I don't even get the analogy. My friend has that incident detection thing on his Garmin, and it would go off whenever he hit a bump, so he shut it off. No angst, armor, horse-protective fences, etc.
> And having these devices might actually encourage cycling in areas where one might feel a little sheepish about being alone, assuming there is a cell signal -- and a survivable injury. https://www.cxmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/2019OTGG_Adam_LapierreDSC_5467.jpg Beautify Ory-gun. Not everyone is rolling around in some Ohio village. OTOH, it would be kind of weird having a crash alarm for urban riding -- except in those places where people don't stop for wounded. Around here, you get a flat tire on one of the popular routes, and a thousand people ask whether you're O.K.

My observations about Safety Inflation are not restricted to bicycling,
although bicycling certainly gets special attention from the
hand-wringing crowd. By most measures, modern Americans are the safest
people in history, yet we're constantly bombarded with warnings,
regulations and new products (often promoted by those regulations)
telling us we're not safe enough.

We've mentioned plenty of bike examples. But non-bike ones? How about
protecting toddlers by padding every object in a living room interior.
Helmets for kids learning to walk. Bath mats that have the word "HOT!"
magically appear if the bath water is too hot. Child car seats that
you're told never to buy second hand because of potential danger (from
what??). Chain link fences so kids don't wander out of their own back
yard. Playground ground surfaces that sink inches when walked on.

About your gravel road: we've got plenty of them in Ohio, but without
the mountain views. We have to settle for brutal Appalachian foothills.
But yes, I've ridden (gasp!) gravel roads where (gasp!) there was no
cell signal, and oddly enough I didn't think "What if I crash??" (I
don't crash.) I remember a solo ride in Michigan where I ran out of
water and couldn't find a place to get it in 50 miles of riding. I think
there are more and more people who would never consider riding in that
situation. Heck, we now have club members who won't do any ride that
leaves a bike trail.

But we're safer every day, and that's all that matters!

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Saturday, August 7, 2021 at 12:12:13 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 8/7/2021 12:53 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> > On Saturday, August 7, 2021 at 8:05:20 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >> On 8/6/2021 8:26 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> >>> On Friday, August 6, 2021 at 4:51:39 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>> Attention helmet fans: Your helmet is no longer safe enough unless it
> >>>> can automatically connect to your cell phone and automatically text your
> >>>> chosen person for help.
> >>>>
> >>>> https://www.performancebike.com/specialized-angi/cp711
> >>>>
> >>>> Good golly, don't dare think of riding a bike without this critical
> >>>> level of protection! Because even if you have a conventional helmet,
> >>>> fluorescent clothing, elbow and knee pads, front and rear daytime
> >>>> running lights, an electric bike horn, a six foot tall flippy flag, a
> >>>> "protected" bike lane, an emergency contact bracelet and brakes that
> >>>> will lock your wheel if you breath on the levers, you can NEVER be safe
> >>>> enough!
> >>>
> >>> Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but this is already a feature on Garmin bike computers -- the incident detection function that calls your wife when it senses a crash. That helmet sensor is made by Specialized, so it is the best, and you should get one -- or three. But if you want to complain generally about safety inflation, its a little late. That horse has left the barn. https://www.onstar.com/us/en/home/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQlpDiXPZHQ&ab_channel=hauntedgeorge There's an iPhone app. https://apps.apple.com/us/app/sosmart-automatic-car-crash-detection/id991589696
> >> Oh, I know the horse has left the barn. It's roaming the property and
> >> wrecking the landscaping.
> >>
> >> And if that horse should trample someone, they'll be told "Well, you
> >> should have been wearing your horse-trampling armor, ringing your
> >> anti-horse bell and staying behind a horse-protective fence. You can't
> >> be too safe!"
> >
> > I little breathless, no? And I don't even get the analogy. My friend has that incident detection thing on his Garmin, and it would go off whenever he hit a bump, so he shut it off. No angst, armor, horse-protective fences, etc.
> > And having these devices might actually encourage cycling in areas where one might feel a little sheepish about being alone, assuming there is a cell signal -- and a survivable injury. https://www.cxmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/2019OTGG_Adam_LapierreDSC_5467.jpg Beautify Ory-gun. Not everyone is rolling around in some Ohio village. OTOH, it would be kind of weird having a crash alarm for urban riding -- except in those places where people don't stop for wounded. Around here, you get a flat tire on one of the popular routes, and a thousand people ask whether you're O.K.
> My observations about Safety Inflation are not restricted to bicycling,
> although bicycling certainly gets special attention from the
> hand-wringing crowd. By most measures, modern Americans are the safest
> people in history, yet we're constantly bombarded with warnings,
> regulations and new products (often promoted by those regulations)
> telling us we're not safe enough.
>
> We've mentioned plenty of bike examples. But non-bike ones? How about
> protecting toddlers by padding every object in a living room interior.
> Helmets for kids learning to walk. Bath mats that have the word "HOT!"
> magically appear if the bath water is too hot. Child car seats that
> you're told never to buy second hand because of potential danger (from
> what??). Chain link fences so kids don't wander out of their own back
> yard. Playground ground surfaces that sink inches when walked on.
>
> About your gravel road: we've got plenty of them in Ohio, but without
> the mountain views. We have to settle for brutal Appalachian foothills.
> But yes, I've ridden (gasp!) gravel roads where (gasp!) there was no
> cell signal, and oddly enough I didn't think "What if I crash??" (I
> don't crash.) I remember a solo ride in Michigan where I ran out of
> water and couldn't find a place to get it in 50 miles of riding. I think
> there are more and more people who would never consider riding in that
> situation. Heck, we now have club members who won't do any ride that
> leaves a bike trail.
>
> But we're safer every day, and that's all that matters!

You imagine a world of people cowering at home or out moping around with GPS tracking systems. I am entirely unfamiliar with your world. I'm about to go out for a roll-around ride, still recovering from my own injuries, and I will see dozens of riders all dressed up in Lycra, with helmets on bikes with discs, STI, CF, none cowering in fear. Seriously, on a sunny day around here -- which is like every day this summer -- I see zillions of riders who are anti-Franks and apparently unafraid, notwithstanding the safety inflation perpetrated by Big Safety. And this is on ordinary suburban streets and not facilities.

BTW, I went out for a ride last Saturday, and I felt like I got caught in a century ride. It was a little disturbing. Bicyclists are a hazard! I want a facility just for me. I'm not going out until I get my own facility -- or some use regulation, like the regulation of trains using a common track. Other bicyclists should go on to side-tracks until I pass.

You probably don't get much of this there in Ohio: https://wanderwisdom.com/travelogue/Bear-Camp-Road-Not-Even-God-Can-Find-Me https://www.oregonlive..com/breakingnews/2008/07/new_signs_for_bear_camp_road_a.html
People follow their GPS and die. Bring potato chips! https://www.kgw.com/article/news/local/osp-searching-for-missing-la-grande-trucker/283-546384800

Not that a helmet tracking device will help, but I can understand concern about crashing alone in some places around here -- and fairly close-in around here. https://traveloregon.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/G4-BennettHood.jpg (Bennett Pass, eminently rideable from Gresham or Sandy -- too far for me now from PDX). Personally, there are place I will not ride alone. YMMV.

I haven't ridden through the brutal Appalachian foothills in Ohio, but I've crossed the actual Appalachians in Tennessee and Virginia, and it was notable that there was some tiny town about every five miles. I think there were some places in the Blue Ridge with wider spacing, but I don't recall. We ate cookies with the Cookie Lady in Afton in '81. https://en.wikipedia..org/wiki/June_Curry The East and Mid-West are far more densely populated than much of the West . https://tinyurl.com/52uenuwx Although you can find empty spots practically anywhere like upstate NY or Michigan and maybe Ohio, but I've never ridden there. Anyway, some alert or just a cell phone would be a reasonable option in some places. Not riding around most of the urban US, however.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Sat, 7 Aug 2021 15:12:08 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 8/7/2021 12:53 PM, jbeattie wrote:
>> On Saturday, August 7, 2021 at 8:05:20 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 8/6/2021 8:26 PM, jbeattie wrote:
>>>> On Friday, August 6, 2021 at 4:51:39 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>> Attention helmet fans: Your helmet is no longer safe enough unless it
>>>>> can automatically connect to your cell phone and automatically text your
>>>>> chosen person for help.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.performancebike.com/specialized-angi/cp711
>>>>>
>>>>> Good golly, don't dare think of riding a bike without this critical
>>>>> level of protection! Because even if you have a conventional helmet,
>>>>> fluorescent clothing, elbow and knee pads, front and rear daytime
>>>>> running lights, an electric bike horn, a six foot tall flippy flag, a
>>>>> "protected" bike lane, an emergency contact bracelet and brakes that
>>>>> will lock your wheel if you breath on the levers, you can NEVER be safe
>>>>> enough!
>>>>
>>>> Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but this is already a feature on Garmin bike computers -- the incident detection function that calls your wife when it senses a crash. That helmet sensor is made by Specialized, so it is the best, and you should get one -- or three. But if you want to complain generally about safety inflation, its a little late. That horse has left the barn. https://www.onstar.com/us/en/home/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQlpDiXPZHQ&ab_channel=hauntedgeorge There's an iPhone app. https://apps.apple.com/us/app/sosmart-automatic-car-crash-detection/id991589696
>>> Oh, I know the horse has left the barn. It's roaming the property and
>>> wrecking the landscaping.
>>>
>>> And if that horse should trample someone, they'll be told "Well, you
>>> should have been wearing your horse-trampling armor, ringing your
>>> anti-horse bell and staying behind a horse-protective fence. You can't
>>> be too safe!"
>>
>> I little breathless, no? And I don't even get the analogy. My friend has that incident detection thing on his Garmin, and it would go off whenever he hit a bump, so he shut it off. No angst, armor, horse-protective fences, etc.
>> And having these devices might actually encourage cycling in areas where one might feel a little sheepish about being alone, assuming there is a cell signal -- and a survivable injury. https://www.cxmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/2019OTGG_Adam_LapierreDSC_5467.jpg Beautify Ory-gun. Not everyone is rolling around in some Ohio village. OTOH, it would be kind of weird having a crash alarm for urban riding -- except in those places where people don't stop for wounded. Around here, you get a flat tire on one of the popular routes, and a thousand people ask whether you're O.K.
>
>My observations about Safety Inflation are not restricted to bicycling,
>although bicycling certainly gets special attention from the
>hand-wringing crowd. By most measures, modern Americans are the safest
>people in history, yet we're constantly bombarded with warnings,
>regulations and new products (often promoted by those regulations)
>telling us we're not safe enough.
>
>We've mentioned plenty of bike examples. But non-bike ones? How about
>protecting toddlers by padding every object in a living room interior.
>Helmets for kids learning to walk. Bath mats that have the word "HOT!"
>magically appear if the bath water is too hot. Child car seats that
>you're told never to buy second hand because of potential danger (from
>what??). Chain link fences so kids don't wander out of their own back
>yard. Playground ground surfaces that sink inches when walked on.
>
>About your gravel road: we've got plenty of them in Ohio, but without
>the mountain views. We have to settle for brutal Appalachian foothills.
>But yes, I've ridden (gasp!) gravel roads where (gasp!) there was no
>cell signal, and oddly enough I didn't think "What if I crash??" (I
>don't crash.) I remember a solo ride in Michigan where I ran out of
>water and couldn't find a place to get it in 50 miles of riding. I think
>there are more and more people who would never consider riding in that
>situation. Heck, we now have club members who won't do any ride that
>leaves a bike trail.
>
>But we're safer every day, and that's all that matters!

I think that it is, to some extent, the fact that "safety sells". Tell
someone he needs to pay $10 for this bright colored styrofoam hat for
his kid and he'll probably look at you like you are nuts. But tell him
that he needs to buy one of these bright colored styrofoam helmets for
his kid "as it will make him safe" and Bingo! He'll take two, please.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sat, 7 Aug 2021 15:12:08 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> Helmets for kids learning to walk.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c3/Rembrandt_Sheet_of_Studies%2C_with_a_Woman_Teaching_a_Child_to_Walk.jpg

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at centurylink dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/

On 8/7/2021 4:33 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> On Saturday, August 7, 2021 at 12:12:13 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 8/7/2021 12:53 PM, jbeattie wrote:
>>> On Saturday, August 7, 2021 at 8:05:20 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 8/6/2021 8:26 PM, jbeattie wrote:
>>>>> On Friday, August 6, 2021 at 4:51:39 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>> Attention helmet fans: Your helmet is no longer safe enough unless it
>>>>>> can automatically connect to your cell phone and automatically text your
>>>>>> chosen person for help.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.performancebike.com/specialized-angi/cp711
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Good golly, don't dare think of riding a bike without this critical
>>>>>> level of protection! Because even if you have a conventional helmet,
>>>>>> fluorescent clothing, elbow and knee pads, front and rear daytime
>>>>>> running lights, an electric bike horn, a six foot tall flippy flag, a
>>>>>> "protected" bike lane, an emergency contact bracelet and brakes that
>>>>>> will lock your wheel if you breath on the levers, you can NEVER be safe
>>>>>> enough!
>>>>>
>>>>> Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but this is already a feature on Garmin bike computers -- the incident detection function that calls your wife when it senses a crash. That helmet sensor is made by Specialized, so it is the best, and you should get one -- or three. But if you want to complain generally about safety inflation, its a little late. That horse has left the barn. https://www.onstar.com/us/en/home/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQlpDiXPZHQ&ab_channel=hauntedgeorge There's an iPhone app. https://apps.apple.com/us/app/sosmart-automatic-car-crash-detection/id991589696
>>>> Oh, I know the horse has left the barn. It's roaming the property and
>>>> wrecking the landscaping.
>>>>
>>>> And if that horse should trample someone, they'll be told "Well, you
>>>> should have been wearing your horse-trampling armor, ringing your
>>>> anti-horse bell and staying behind a horse-protective fence. You can't
>>>> be too safe!"
>>>
>>> I little breathless, no? And I don't even get the analogy. My friend has that incident detection thing on his Garmin, and it would go off whenever he hit a bump, so he shut it off. No angst, armor, horse-protective fences, etc.
>>> And having these devices might actually encourage cycling in areas where one might feel a little sheepish about being alone, assuming there is a cell signal -- and a survivable injury. https://www.cxmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/2019OTGG_Adam_LapierreDSC_5467.jpg Beautify Ory-gun. Not everyone is rolling around in some Ohio village. OTOH, it would be kind of weird having a crash alarm for urban riding -- except in those places where people don't stop for wounded. Around here, you get a flat tire on one of the popular routes, and a thousand people ask whether you're O.K.
>> My observations about Safety Inflation are not restricted to bicycling,
>> although bicycling certainly gets special attention from the
>> hand-wringing crowd. By most measures, modern Americans are the safest
>> people in history, yet we're constantly bombarded with warnings,
>> regulations and new products (often promoted by those regulations)
>> telling us we're not safe enough.
>>
>> We've mentioned plenty of bike examples. But non-bike ones? How about
>> protecting toddlers by padding every object in a living room interior.
>> Helmets for kids learning to walk. Bath mats that have the word "HOT!"
>> magically appear if the bath water is too hot. Child car seats that
>> you're told never to buy second hand because of potential danger (from
>> what??). Chain link fences so kids don't wander out of their own back
>> yard. Playground ground surfaces that sink inches when walked on.
>>
>> About your gravel road: we've got plenty of them in Ohio, but without
>> the mountain views. We have to settle for brutal Appalachian foothills.
>> But yes, I've ridden (gasp!) gravel roads where (gasp!) there was no
>> cell signal, and oddly enough I didn't think "What if I crash??" (I
>> don't crash.) I remember a solo ride in Michigan where I ran out of
>> water and couldn't find a place to get it in 50 miles of riding. I think
>> there are more and more people who would never consider riding in that
>> situation. Heck, we now have club members who won't do any ride that
>> leaves a bike trail.
>>
>> But we're safer every day, and that's all that matters!
>
> You imagine a world of people cowering at home or out moping around with GPS tracking systems. I am entirely unfamiliar with your world. I'm about to go out for a roll-around ride, still recovering from my own injuries, and I will see dozens of riders all dressed up in Lycra, with helmets on bikes with discs, STI, CF, none cowering in fear. Seriously, on a sunny day around here -- which is like every day this summer -- I see zillions of riders who are anti-Franks and apparently unafraid, notwithstanding the safety inflation perpetrated by Big Safety. And this is on ordinary suburban streets and not facilities.

[The response I typed disappeared into the ether. Let me try again.]

I think most of the people you see riding with discs, STI and CF made
those choices based not on "safety inflation." They bought those based
on "fashion." They were told by ads, shop employees or buddies that
"this is best." They never thought about benefits vs. detriments, and
whether they personally needed the purported benefits. Besides, in many
cases they had no choice - the shop they visited had nothing else on the
floor.

But there doubtlessly were many people who bought helmets because riding
with any other hat seemed not safe enough. There were some who thought
caliper brakes don't stop well enough even for their low speed dry
weather riding. And we've read here about a few young racers who felt it
was scary to move one's hands to shift. Those are examples of safety
inflation. Other victims are those people who think it's way too
dangerous to ride a bike except on specially reserved pavement.

I'm not so much bothered by people spending their excess money on
unnecessary "safety" measures. As you say, they're helping the economy.

But I know that surveys repeatedly show a top reason people choose _not_
to ride bikes is "safety." They are falsely convinced that an ordinary
bike ride is terribly dangerous.

And every time the public is told "Only a protected bike lane is safe
enough" or "You need super bright daytime running lights" or "Never,
ever, ride without a helmet," that harms cycling. It confirms the myth
that riding is super-risky and that the only safe way to travel is by
car. It causes parents to prevent their kids from riding.

You live in a very unusual city - one whose residents probably still say
"Keep Portland weird." You may not see these effects (except for the
helmet culture and infra culture, which you accept). I can't count the
times I heard "Wow, you ride your bike to work? Aren't you afraid?" I
think this is bad for society.

I'm not keen on the other examples of safety inflation, and there are
plenty of them. But I can just give those an eye roll. I admit to being
most bothered by the bike-related ones.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Saturday, August 7, 2021 at 5:40:16 PM UTC-7, Joy Beeson wrote:
> On Sat, 7 Aug 2021 15:12:08 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > Helmets for kids learning to walk.
> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c3/Rembrandt_Sheet_of_Studies%2C_with_a_Woman_Teaching_a_Child_to_Walk.jpg

Do you suppose that someone coming up with an idea like that ever had any children of their own?

On Sunday, August 8, 2021 at 8:00:46 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 8/7/2021 4:33 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> > On Saturday, August 7, 2021 at 12:12:13 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >> On 8/7/2021 12:53 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> >>> On Saturday, August 7, 2021 at 8:05:20 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>> On 8/6/2021 8:26 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> >>>>> On Friday, August 6, 2021 at 4:51:39 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>>>> Attention helmet fans: Your helmet is no longer safe enough unless it
> >>>>>> can automatically connect to your cell phone and automatically text your
> >>>>>> chosen person for help.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> https://www.performancebike.com/specialized-angi/cp711
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Good golly, don't dare think of riding a bike without this critical
> >>>>>> level of protection! Because even if you have a conventional helmet,
> >>>>>> fluorescent clothing, elbow and knee pads, front and rear daytime
> >>>>>> running lights, an electric bike horn, a six foot tall flippy flag, a
> >>>>>> "protected" bike lane, an emergency contact bracelet and brakes that
> >>>>>> will lock your wheel if you breath on the levers, you can NEVER be safe
> >>>>>> enough!
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but this is already a feature on Garmin bike computers -- the incident detection function that calls your wife when it senses a crash. That helmet sensor is made by Specialized, so it is the best, and you should get one -- or three. But if you want to complain generally about safety inflation, its a little late. That horse has left the barn. https://www.onstar.com/us/en/home/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQlpDiXPZHQ&ab_channel=hauntedgeorge There's an iPhone app. https://apps.apple.com/us/app/sosmart-automatic-car-crash-detection/id991589696
> >>>> Oh, I know the horse has left the barn. It's roaming the property and
> >>>> wrecking the landscaping.
> >>>>
> >>>> And if that horse should trample someone, they'll be told "Well, you
> >>>> should have been wearing your horse-trampling armor, ringing your
> >>>> anti-horse bell and staying behind a horse-protective fence. You can't
> >>>> be too safe!"
> >>>
> >>> I little breathless, no? And I don't even get the analogy. My friend has that incident detection thing on his Garmin, and it would go off whenever he hit a bump, so he shut it off. No angst, armor, horse-protective fences, etc.
> >>> And having these devices might actually encourage cycling in areas where one might feel a little sheepish about being alone, assuming there is a cell signal -- and a survivable injury. https://www.cxmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/2019OTGG_Adam_LapierreDSC_5467.jpg Beautify Ory-gun. Not everyone is rolling around in some Ohio village. OTOH, it would be kind of weird having a crash alarm for urban riding -- except in those places where people don't stop for wounded. Around here, you get a flat tire on one of the popular routes, and a thousand people ask whether you're O.K.
> >> My observations about Safety Inflation are not restricted to bicycling,
> >> although bicycling certainly gets special attention from the
> >> hand-wringing crowd. By most measures, modern Americans are the safest
> >> people in history, yet we're constantly bombarded with warnings,
> >> regulations and new products (often promoted by those regulations)
> >> telling us we're not safe enough.
> >>
> >> We've mentioned plenty of bike examples. But non-bike ones? How about
> >> protecting toddlers by padding every object in a living room interior.
> >> Helmets for kids learning to walk. Bath mats that have the word "HOT!"
> >> magically appear if the bath water is too hot. Child car seats that
> >> you're told never to buy second hand because of potential danger (from
> >> what??). Chain link fences so kids don't wander out of their own back
> >> yard. Playground ground surfaces that sink inches when walked on.
> >>
> >> About your gravel road: we've got plenty of them in Ohio, but without
> >> the mountain views. We have to settle for brutal Appalachian foothills..
> >> But yes, I've ridden (gasp!) gravel roads where (gasp!) there was no
> >> cell signal, and oddly enough I didn't think "What if I crash??" (I
> >> don't crash.) I remember a solo ride in Michigan where I ran out of
> >> water and couldn't find a place to get it in 50 miles of riding. I think
> >> there are more and more people who would never consider riding in that
> >> situation. Heck, we now have club members who won't do any ride that
> >> leaves a bike trail.
> >>
> >> But we're safer every day, and that's all that matters!
> >
> > You imagine a world of people cowering at home or out moping around with GPS tracking systems. I am entirely unfamiliar with your world. I'm about to go out for a roll-around ride, still recovering from my own injuries, and I will see dozens of riders all dressed up in Lycra, with helmets on bikes with discs, STI, CF, none cowering in fear. Seriously, on a sunny day around here -- which is like every day this summer -- I see zillions of riders who are anti-Franks and apparently unafraid, notwithstanding the safety inflation perpetrated by Big Safety. And this is on ordinary suburban streets and not facilities.
> [The response I typed disappeared into the ether. Let me try again.]
>
> I think most of the people you see riding with discs, STI and CF made
> those choices based not on "safety inflation." They bought those based
> on "fashion." They were told by ads, shop employees or buddies that
> "this is best." They never thought about benefits vs. detriments, and
> whether they personally needed the purported benefits. Besides, in many
> cases they had no choice - the shop they visited had nothing else on the
> floor.

Do you just make this stuff up? Your 1987 ST800 museum piece no longer exists in the retail market. Half of the people I see riding around are younger than your bike -- or were in grade school when it was made. So when these people went to buy their weekend bikes or racing bikes (there is a lot of local racing), they bought [drum roll] . . . a modern bike with modern components.

I haven't done a poll of everyone I see out on a ride, but if they're anything like my cohorts, they probably have more than one bike. So, these people are not trudging around on their Dying Pigeons, going to get their loaves of government bread. They're not a bunch of neo-Amish curmudgeons grumbling about fashion and safety inflation. They're not doing some dreary cost-benefit analysis, deciding whether in the event of a zombie apocalypse, they could find an 11sp STI lever or 12sp Campy cassette. They're not bicycle survivalists -- they're out for fast rides in the sunshine on light and reliable equipment. Its fun riding on fun to ride bikes.

I've ridden new stuff, and I've ridden old stuff, and I prefer the new stuff -- at least for weekend riding. Why ride some old ball and chain. YMMV.

> But there doubtlessly were many people who bought helmets because riding
> with any other hat seemed not safe enough. There were some who thought
> caliper brakes don't stop well enough even for their low speed dry
> weather riding. And we've read here about a few young racers who felt it
> was scary to move one's hands to shift. Those are examples of safety
> inflation. Other victims are those people who think it's way too
> dangerous to ride a bike except on specially reserved pavement.
>
> I'm not so much bothered by people spending their excess money on
> unnecessary "safety" measures. As you say, they're helping the economy.
>
> But I know that surveys repeatedly show a top reason people choose _not_
> to ride bikes is "safety." They are falsely convinced that an ordinary
> bike ride is terribly dangerous.
>
> And every time the public is told "Only a protected bike lane is safe
> enough" or "You need super bright daytime running lights" or "Never,
> ever, ride without a helmet," that harms cycling. It confirms the myth
> that riding is super-risky and that the only safe way to travel is by
> car. It causes parents to prevent their kids from riding.
>
> You live in a very unusual city - one whose residents probably still say
> "Keep Portland weird." You may not see these effects (except for the
> helmet culture and infra culture, which you accept). I can't count the
> times I heard "Wow, you ride your bike to work? Aren't you afraid?" I
> think this is bad for society.

On 8/6/2021 5:26 PM, jbeattie wrote:

<snip>

> Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but this is already a feature on Garmin bike computers -- the incident detection function that calls your wife when it senses a crash. That helmet sensor is made by Specialized, so it is the best, and you should get one -- or three. But if you want to complain generally about safety inflation, its a little late. That horse has left the barn. https://www.onstar.com/us/en/home/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQlpDiXPZHQ&ab_channel=hauntedgeorge There's an iPhone app. https://apps.apple.com/us/app/sosmart-automatic-car-crash-detection/id991589696

On my Apple Watch, if it thinks you've taken a hard fall it asks if you
want it to call 911. I knelt down to pick up some dandelions that had
spread to my neighbor's lawn and my watch vibrated and displayed a
message "It looks like you've taken a hard fall." You then choose
whether to contact emergency services or to tap on "I fell, but I'm
okay." No option for "I didn't fall," if Apple says that you fell, then
you fell, and don't argue with them.
<https://www.macfilos.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Apple-Watch-Series-4-Health-Apple-UK-2019-01-21-11-23-33.png>.

In any case, this is useful technology to be built into new helmets.
Those sensors are very inexpensive, no reason to not include them.

For non-helmet wearers, they should consider getting the sensors and
related electronics implanted in their head.

On 8/8/2021 1:41 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> On Sunday, August 8, 2021 at 8:00:46 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> O
>>
>> I think most of the people you see riding with discs, STI and CF made
>> those choices based not on "safety inflation." They bought those based
>> on "fashion." They were told by ads, shop employees or buddies that
>> "this is best." They never thought about benefits vs. detriments, and
>> whether they personally needed the purported benefits. Besides, in many
>> cases they had no choice - the shop they visited had nothing else on the
>> floor.
>
> Do you just make this stuff up? Your 1987 ST800 museum piece no longer exists in the retail market. Half of the people I see riding around are younger than your bike -- or were in grade school when it was made. So when these people went to buy their weekend bikes or racing bikes (there is a lot of local racing), they bought [drum roll] . . . a modern bike with modern components.

Of course they did. Nobody much knows about Rivendell or Velo Orange, so
nobody much even gets the choice. As I said, they buy what they are told
to buy, in part because nothing else is nearly as available.

But you're getting off topic. When they do get a choice of disc or
caliper brakes, what do you think they're being told? Answer seriously,
please! It's not "If you commute daily in rainy weather these will
prevent replacing rims." It's much more likely "These can stop you way
faster, so they're safer."

> I haven't done a poll of everyone I see out on a ride, but if they're anything like my cohorts, they probably have more than one bike.

Jay, it's pretty silly to think that most people are anything like
you're cohorts. You're Buycycling's target market: the "fast
recreational" riders willing to spend lots of money to outrun middle age.

Most Americans have one bike. It hangs in the garage. Being lazy is part
of it, fashion is part of it, but "danger! danger!" is certainly part of
it. This has been confirmed in many surveys done by competent people who
really want to understand the problem.

> Its fun riding on fun to ride bikes.

You need to expand your personal definition of "fun to ride bikes."
Those are not just delicate fifteen pound wonders. It's not unusual for
my wife to spontaneously say "This is fun" riding her touring bike home
from the grocery store. Last week we rode to a restaurant with two
little kids in the extended family, putzing our way through a grid of
residential streets. They both said they loved it. Hell, go to a
touristy beach town and look at the people having fun on single speed
coaster brake bikes with wide tires.

> I've ridden new stuff, and I've ridden old stuff, and I prefer the new stuff -- at least for weekend riding. Why ride some old ball and chain. YMMV.

I know your preferences, you know mine. But it's off the topic of Safety
Inflation.

>
>> But there doubtlessly were many people who bought helmets because riding
>> with any other hat seemed not safe enough. There were some who thought
>> caliper brakes don't stop well enough even for their low speed dry
>> weather riding. And we've read here about a few young racers who felt it
>> was scary to move one's hands to shift. Those are examples of safety
>> inflation. Other victims are those people who think it's way too
>> dangerous to ride a bike except on specially reserved pavement.
>>
>> I'm not so much bothered by people spending their excess money on
>> unnecessary "safety" measures. As you say, they're helping the economy.
>>
>> But I know that surveys repeatedly show a top reason people choose _not_
>> to ride bikes is "safety." They are falsely convinced that an ordinary
>> bike ride is terribly dangerous.
>>
>> And every time the public is told "Only a protected bike lane is safe
>> enough" or "You need super bright daytime running lights" or "Never,
>> ever, ride without a helmet," that harms cycling. It confirms the myth
>> that riding is super-risky and that the only safe way to travel is by
>> car. It causes parents to prevent their kids from riding.
>>
>> You live in a very unusual city - one whose residents probably still say
>> "Keep Portland weird." You may not see these effects (except for the
>> helmet culture and infra culture, which you accept). I can't count the
>> times I heard "Wow, you ride your bike to work? Aren't you afraid?" I
>> think this is bad for society.
>
> I see more adults on bicycles now than in the good old days, whenever those were.

You live in one of perhaps ten American cities where that can be said
with statistical confidence.

Kids are different, and even I was scared having my son ride to middle
school down a twisting road with a lot of blind turns. He did ride to
middle school on occasion.

Fine. But kids' bike sales have been trending down for a long time. It's
ludicrous to think "You must wear a helmet" has nothing to do with that.
Ditto for "It's not safe unless there's a bike lane."

> IMO, kid ridership is down in large part because parents are willing to drive their kids everywhere . . . and yes, they are afraid that something will happen to their kid and that they will end up on the 6:00PM news as the bad parents.

Thank you for recognizing and admitting that.

> It was a different era, and we were less precious, and parents were tough. A single-scoop ice cream cone was also a nickel. There is lots to pine-away about, some real and some imagined.

I'm simply describing one of the important differences. The phrase
"safety inflation" is mine, but others have expressed the same points.
I've got books about it.

> BTW, the "its so dangerous" comments usually come from some fat person on the elevator with a latte and doughnut.

I've gotten that sort of thing many times from people of normal weight
and fitness. I got it from college students.

It is code for "I'm too lazy to ride." I do wonder what portion of
would-be cyclists are not riding because it is "dangerous." When I get
the "it's dangerous" from other cyclists, they're often complaining
about real danger. There are lots of twisting roads around her that have
become suburban arterials that are demonstrably dangerous and are
miserable for riding -- but sometimes unavoidable. I have solid,
long-time cyclist friends who just refuse to ride in some places now.
One good thing about separate facilities -- assuming the facility
hasn't been swarmed by dog-walkers or homeless -- is that it is just
more peaceful. There are times when one just doesn't want to make a
point about "controlling traffic" and "taking the lane," being loud and
proud, etc., etc. F*** that. I'll just ride the path.
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1654/7905/files/Marine_Drive_Trail.jpg?v=1552262333

I have former cyclist friends who say they are now too afraid to ride.
Nothing has changed significantly on the roads they used to ride.
They've just responded to the messaging. And as I said, more and more of
our club's rides use bike trails, some using them exclusively.

Bike trails can be peaceful, especially if empty. (Our club's experience
is they are not safer; we've had far more serious crashes per mile on
trails than on roads - that's not even close.) Some bike trails are
useful. But sticking to bike trails is only slightly less limiting than
sticking to a Peloton exercise machine.

Except in winter, I think almost everyone in a spin class is a person
who is afraid to really make use of a bicycle. They think real bicycling
is "dangerous" because of the messaging they've received. Any unbiased
look at relevant data shows they're wrong, but who cares about data?

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Sunday, August 8, 2021 at 10:41:42 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
> On Sunday, August 8, 2021 at 8:00:46 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 8/7/2021 4:33 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> > > On Saturday, August 7, 2021 at 12:12:13 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > >> On 8/7/2021 12:53 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> > >>> On Saturday, August 7, 2021 at 8:05:20 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > >>>> On 8/6/2021 8:26 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> > >>>>> On Friday, August 6, 2021 at 4:51:39 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > >>>>>> Attention helmet fans: Your helmet is no longer safe enough unless it
> > >>>>>> can automatically connect to your cell phone and automatically text your
> > >>>>>> chosen person for help.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> https://www.performancebike.com/specialized-angi/cp711
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Good golly, don't dare think of riding a bike without this critical
> > >>>>>> level of protection! Because even if you have a conventional helmet,
> > >>>>>> fluorescent clothing, elbow and knee pads, front and rear daytime
> > >>>>>> running lights, an electric bike horn, a six foot tall flippy flag, a
> > >>>>>> "protected" bike lane, an emergency contact bracelet and brakes that
> > >>>>>> will lock your wheel if you breath on the levers, you can NEVER be safe
> > >>>>>> enough!
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but this is already a feature on Garmin bike computers -- the incident detection function that calls your wife when it senses a crash. That helmet sensor is made by Specialized, so it is the best, and you should get one -- or three. But if you want to complain generally about safety inflation, its a little late. That horse has left the barn. https://www.onstar.com/us/en/home/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQlpDiXPZHQ&ab_channel=hauntedgeorge There's an iPhone app. https://apps.apple.com/us/app/sosmart-automatic-car-crash-detection/id991589696
> > >>>> Oh, I know the horse has left the barn. It's roaming the property and
> > >>>> wrecking the landscaping.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> And if that horse should trample someone, they'll be told "Well, you
> > >>>> should have been wearing your horse-trampling armor, ringing your
> > >>>> anti-horse bell and staying behind a horse-protective fence. You can't
> > >>>> be too safe!"
> > >>>
> > >>> I little breathless, no? And I don't even get the analogy. My friend has that incident detection thing on his Garmin, and it would go off whenever he hit a bump, so he shut it off. No angst, armor, horse-protective fences, etc.
> > >>> And having these devices might actually encourage cycling in areas where one might feel a little sheepish about being alone, assuming there is a cell signal -- and a survivable injury. https://www.cxmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/2019OTGG_Adam_LapierreDSC_5467.jpg Beautify Ory-gun. Not everyone is rolling around in some Ohio village. OTOH, it would be kind of weird having a crash alarm for urban riding -- except in those places where people don't stop for wounded. Around here, you get a flat tire on one of the popular routes, and a thousand people ask whether you're O.K.
> > >> My observations about Safety Inflation are not restricted to bicycling,
> > >> although bicycling certainly gets special attention from the
> > >> hand-wringing crowd. By most measures, modern Americans are the safest
> > >> people in history, yet we're constantly bombarded with warnings,
> > >> regulations and new products (often promoted by those regulations)
> > >> telling us we're not safe enough.
> > >>
> > >> We've mentioned plenty of bike examples. But non-bike ones? How about
> > >> protecting toddlers by padding every object in a living room interior.
> > >> Helmets for kids learning to walk. Bath mats that have the word "HOT!"
> > >> magically appear if the bath water is too hot. Child car seats that
> > >> you're told never to buy second hand because of potential danger (from
> > >> what??). Chain link fences so kids don't wander out of their own back
> > >> yard. Playground ground surfaces that sink inches when walked on.
> > >>
> > >> About your gravel road: we've got plenty of them in Ohio, but without
> > >> the mountain views. We have to settle for brutal Appalachian foothills.
> > >> But yes, I've ridden (gasp!) gravel roads where (gasp!) there was no
> > >> cell signal, and oddly enough I didn't think "What if I crash??" (I
> > >> don't crash.) I remember a solo ride in Michigan where I ran out of
> > >> water and couldn't find a place to get it in 50 miles of riding. I think
> > >> there are more and more people who would never consider riding in that
> > >> situation. Heck, we now have club members who won't do any ride that
> > >> leaves a bike trail.
> > >>
> > >> But we're safer every day, and that's all that matters!
> > >
> > > You imagine a world of people cowering at home or out moping around with GPS tracking systems. I am entirely unfamiliar with your world. I'm about to go out for a roll-around ride, still recovering from my own injuries, and I will see dozens of riders all dressed up in Lycra, with helmets on bikes with discs, STI, CF, none cowering in fear. Seriously, on a sunny day around here -- which is like every day this summer -- I see zillions of riders who are anti-Franks and apparently unafraid, notwithstanding the safety inflation perpetrated by Big Safety. And this is on ordinary suburban streets and not facilities.
> > [The response I typed disappeared into the ether. Let me try again.]
> >
> > I think most of the people you see riding with discs, STI and CF made
> > those choices based not on "safety inflation." They bought those based
> > on "fashion." They were told by ads, shop employees or buddies that
> > "this is best." They never thought about benefits vs. detriments, and
> > whether they personally needed the purported benefits. Besides, in many
> > cases they had no choice - the shop they visited had nothing else on the
> > floor.
> Do you just make this stuff up? Your 1987 ST800 museum piece no longer exists in the retail market. Half of the people I see riding around are younger than your bike -- or were in grade school when it was made. So when these people went to buy their weekend bikes or racing bikes (there is a lot of local racing), they bought [drum roll] . . . a modern bike with modern components.
>
> I haven't done a poll of everyone I see out on a ride, but if they're anything like my cohorts, they probably have more than one bike. So, these people are not trudging around on their Dying Pigeons, going to get their loaves of government bread. They're not a bunch of neo-Amish curmudgeons grumbling about fashion and safety inflation. They're not doing some dreary cost-benefit analysis, deciding whether in the event of a zombie apocalypse, they could find an 11sp STI lever or 12sp Campy cassette. They're not bicycle survivalists -- they're out for fast rides in the sunshine on light and reliable equipment. Its fun riding on fun to ride bikes.
>
> I've ridden new stuff, and I've ridden old stuff, and I prefer the new stuff -- at least for weekend riding. Why ride some old ball and chain. YMMV.
> > But there doubtlessly were many people who bought helmets because riding
> > with any other hat seemed not safe enough. There were some who thought
> > caliper brakes don't stop well enough even for their low speed dry
> > weather riding. And we've read here about a few young racers who felt it
> > was scary to move one's hands to shift. Those are examples of safety
> > inflation. Other victims are those people who think it's way too
> > dangerous to ride a bike except on specially reserved pavement.
> >
> > I'm not so much bothered by people spending their excess money on
> > unnecessary "safety" measures. As you say, they're helping the economy.
> >
> > But I know that surveys repeatedly show a top reason people choose _not_
> > to ride bikes is "safety." They are falsely convinced that an ordinary
> > bike ride is terribly dangerous.
> >
> > And every time the public is told "Only a protected bike lane is safe
> > enough" or "You need super bright daytime running lights" or "Never,
> > ever, ride without a helmet," that harms cycling. It confirms the myth
> > that riding is super-risky and that the only safe way to travel is by
> > car. It causes parents to prevent their kids from riding.
> >
> > You live in a very unusual city - one whose residents probably still say
> > "Keep Portland weird." You may not see these effects (except for the
> > helmet culture and infra culture, which you accept). I can't count the
> > times I heard "Wow, you ride your bike to work? Aren't you afraid?" I
> > think this is bad for society.
> I see more adults on bicycles now than in the good old days, whenever those were. Kids are different, and even I was scared having my son ride to middle school down a twisting road with a lot of blind turns. He did ride to middle school on occasion. He wasn't particularly scared . . . just lazy. It's a lot of hills. Kid ridership is much higher on the flat side of town in the old eastside grid, e.g. https://tinyurl.com/23twnun7 (just kidding).
>
> IMO, kid ridership is down in large part because parents are willing to drive their kids everywhere . . . and yes, they are afraid that something will happen to their kid and that they will end up on the 6:00PM news as the bad parents. My parents could be prosecuted for child endangerment these days. We spent our summers running around abandoned fruit orchards, collecting tarantulas and building forts with rusty nails -- and riding our bikes. It was a different era, and we were less precious, and parents were tough. A single-scoop ice cream cone was also a nickel. There is lots to pine-away about, some real and some imagined.
>
> BTW, the "its so dangerous" comments usually come from some fat person on the elevator with a latte and doughnut. It is code for "I'm too lazy to ride." I do wonder what portion of would-be cyclists are not riding because it is "dangerous." When I get the "it's dangerous" from other cyclists, they're often complaining about real danger. There are lots of twisting roads around her that have become suburban arterials that are demonstrably dangerous and are miserable for riding -- but sometimes unavoidable. I have solid, long-time cyclist friends who just refuse to ride in some places now. One good thing about separate facilities -- assuming the facility hasn't been swarmed by dog-walkers or homeless -- is that it is just more peaceful. There are times when one just doesn't want to make a point about "controlling traffic" and "taking the lane," being loud and proud, etc., etc. F*** that. I'll just ride the path. https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1654/7905/files/Marine_Drive_Trail.jpg?v=1552262333
>
> -- Jay Beattie.
What Frank considers up to the minute bikes are what the homeless around here ride because the only way you can get rid of them is to give them away. And half the time that doesn't work.

On Sunday, August 8, 2021 at 12:25:20 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 8/8/2021 1:41 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> > On Sunday, August 8, 2021 at 8:00:46 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >> O
> >>
> >> I think most of the people you see riding with discs, STI and CF made
> >> those choices based not on "safety inflation." They bought those based
> >> on "fashion." They were told by ads, shop employees or buddies that
> >> "this is best." They never thought about benefits vs. detriments, and
> >> whether they personally needed the purported benefits. Besides, in many
> >> cases they had no choice - the shop they visited had nothing else on the
> >> floor.
> >
> > Do you just make this stuff up? Your 1987 ST800 museum piece no longer exists in the retail market. Half of the people I see riding around are younger than your bike -- or were in grade school when it was made. So when these people went to buy their weekend bikes or racing bikes (there is a lot of local racing), they bought [drum roll] . . . a modern bike with modern components.
> Of course they did. Nobody much knows about Rivendell or Velo Orange, so
> nobody much even gets the choice. As I said, they buy what they are told
> to buy, in part because nothing else is nearly as available.
>
> But you're getting off topic. When they do get a choice of disc or
> caliper brakes, what do you think they're being told? Answer seriously,
> please! It's not "If you commute daily in rainy weather these will
> prevent replacing rims." It's much more likely "These can stop you way
> faster, so they're safer."
> > I haven't done a poll of everyone I see out on a ride, but if they're anything like my cohorts, they probably have more than one bike.
> Jay, it's pretty silly to think that most people are anything like
> you're cohorts. You're Buycycling's target market: the "fast
> recreational" riders willing to spend lots of money to outrun middle age.
>
> Most Americans have one bike. It hangs in the garage. Being lazy is part
> of it, fashion is part of it, but "danger! danger!" is certainly part of
> it. This has been confirmed in many surveys done by competent people who
> really want to understand the problem.
> > Its fun riding on fun to ride bikes.
> You need to expand your personal definition of "fun to ride bikes."
> Those are not just delicate fifteen pound wonders. It's not unusual for
> my wife to spontaneously say "This is fun" riding her touring bike home
> from the grocery store. Last week we rode to a restaurant with two
> little kids in the extended family, putzing our way through a grid of
> residential streets. They both said they loved it. Hell, go to a
> touristy beach town and look at the people having fun on single speed
> coaster brake bikes with wide tires.
> > I've ridden new stuff, and I've ridden old stuff, and I prefer the new stuff -- at least for weekend riding. Why ride some old ball and chain. YMMV.
> I know your preferences, you know mine. But it's off the topic of Safety
> Inflation.
> >
> >> But there doubtlessly were many people who bought helmets because riding
> >> with any other hat seemed not safe enough. There were some who thought
> >> caliper brakes don't stop well enough even for their low speed dry
> >> weather riding. And we've read here about a few young racers who felt it
> >> was scary to move one's hands to shift. Those are examples of safety
> >> inflation. Other victims are those people who think it's way too
> >> dangerous to ride a bike except on specially reserved pavement.
> >>
> >> I'm not so much bothered by people spending their excess money on
> >> unnecessary "safety" measures. As you say, they're helping the economy..
> >>
> >> But I know that surveys repeatedly show a top reason people choose _not_
> >> to ride bikes is "safety." They are falsely convinced that an ordinary
> >> bike ride is terribly dangerous.
> >>
> >> And every time the public is told "Only a protected bike lane is safe
> >> enough" or "You need super bright daytime running lights" or "Never,
> >> ever, ride without a helmet," that harms cycling. It confirms the myth
> >> that riding is super-risky and that the only safe way to travel is by
> >> car. It causes parents to prevent their kids from riding.
> >>
> >> You live in a very unusual city - one whose residents probably still say
> >> "Keep Portland weird." You may not see these effects (except for the
> >> helmet culture and infra culture, which you accept). I can't count the
> >> times I heard "Wow, you ride your bike to work? Aren't you afraid?" I
> >> think this is bad for society.
> >
> > I see more adults on bicycles now than in the good old days, whenever those were.
> You live in one of perhaps ten American cities where that can be said
> with statistical confidence.
> Kids are different, and even I was scared having my son ride to middle
> school down a twisting road with a lot of blind turns. He did ride to
> middle school on occasion.
> Fine. But kids' bike sales have been trending down for a long time. It's
> ludicrous to think "You must wear a helmet" has nothing to do with that.
> Ditto for "It's not safe unless there's a bike lane."
> > IMO, kid ridership is down in large part because parents are willing to drive their kids everywhere . . . and yes, they are afraid that something will happen to their kid and that they will end up on the 6:00PM news as the bad parents.
> Thank you for recognizing and admitting that.
> > It was a different era, and we were less precious, and parents were tough. A single-scoop ice cream cone was also a nickel. There is lots to pine-away about, some real and some imagined.
> I'm simply describing one of the important differences. The phrase
> "safety inflation" is mine, but others have expressed the same points.
> I've got books about it.
> > BTW, the "its so dangerous" comments usually come from some fat person on the elevator with a latte and doughnut.
> I've gotten that sort of thing many times from people of normal weight
> and fitness. I got it from college students.
> It is code for "I'm too lazy to ride." I do wonder what portion of
> would-be cyclists are not riding because it is "dangerous." When I get
> the "it's dangerous" from other cyclists, they're often complaining
> about real danger. There are lots of twisting roads around her that have
> become suburban arterials that are demonstrably dangerous and are
> miserable for riding -- but sometimes unavoidable. I have solid,
> long-time cyclist friends who just refuse to ride in some places now.
> One good thing about separate facilities -- assuming the facility
> hasn't been swarmed by dog-walkers or homeless -- is that it is just
> more peaceful. There are times when one just doesn't want to make a
> point about "controlling traffic" and "taking the lane," being loud and
> proud, etc., etc. F*** that. I'll just ride the path.
> https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1654/7905/files/Marine_Drive_Trail.jpg?v=1552262333
> I have former cyclist friends who say they are now too afraid to ride.
> Nothing has changed significantly on the roads they used to ride.
> They've just responded to the messaging. And as I said, more and more of
> our club's rides use bike trails, some using them exclusively.
>
> Bike trails can be peaceful, especially if empty. (Our club's experience
> is they are not safer; we've had far more serious crashes per mile on
> trails than on roads - that's not even close.) Some bike trails are
> useful. But sticking to bike trails is only slightly less limiting than
> sticking to a Peloton exercise machine.
>
> Except in winter, I think almost everyone in a spin class is a person
> who is afraid to really make use of a bicycle. They think real bicycling
> is "dangerous" because of the messaging they've received. Any unbiased
> look at relevant data shows they're wrong, but who cares about data?

It must be hard being the only unafraid and authentic cyclist. Meanwhile, in the real world: (1) adults in the US did not commute in the '50s and '60s -- or even '70s. Or at least I never saw them, and I hardly ever saw an adult ride recreationally. Did you? My fifth grade teacher commuted in the '60s, but he was also national champion at the time. https://usbhof.org/inductee/bob-tetzlaff/ Way more adults ride now -- with or without facilities and notwithstanding the dreaded "safety inflation." (2) I have never once heard someone say that STI is necessary because DT shifting is dangerous. STI is just a lot more convenient. Imagine selling DT shifting to a current racer -- it would prompt eye-rolling, and these are kids who can pop wheelies on road bikes ala Peter Sagan. They're not afraid of taking their hands off the bars. All of the things you claim as safety inflation equipment are just better. (3) Some spin class people don't like riding on the road, and some do. My brother loved spin class, and he was a three-state mountain bike champion and a strong road rider. I did a century with his instructor and got throttled. Lots of people now ride Zwift and smart trainers who are world-class road racers. Stages bikes. They're the best. https://store.stagescycling.com/Smart-Bikes

On Sunday, August 8, 2021 at 3:15:28 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
> On Sunday, August 8, 2021 at 12:25:20 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 8/8/2021 1:41 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> > > On Sunday, August 8, 2021 at 8:00:46 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > >> O
> > >>
> > >> I think most of the people you see riding with discs, STI and CF made
> > >> those choices based not on "safety inflation." They bought those based
> > >> on "fashion." They were told by ads, shop employees or buddies that
> > >> "this is best." They never thought about benefits vs. detriments, and
> > >> whether they personally needed the purported benefits. Besides, in many
> > >> cases they had no choice - the shop they visited had nothing else on the
> > >> floor.
> > >
> > > Do you just make this stuff up? Your 1987 ST800 museum piece no longer exists in the retail market. Half of the people I see riding around are younger than your bike -- or were in grade school when it was made. So when these people went to buy their weekend bikes or racing bikes (there is a lot of local racing), they bought [drum roll] . . . a modern bike with modern components.
> > Of course they did. Nobody much knows about Rivendell or Velo Orange, so
> > nobody much even gets the choice. As I said, they buy what they are told
> > to buy, in part because nothing else is nearly as available.
> >
> > But you're getting off topic. When they do get a choice of disc or
> > caliper brakes, what do you think they're being told? Answer seriously,
> > please! It's not "If you commute daily in rainy weather these will
> > prevent replacing rims." It's much more likely "These can stop you way
> > faster, so they're safer."
> > > I haven't done a poll of everyone I see out on a ride, but if they're anything like my cohorts, they probably have more than one bike.
> > Jay, it's pretty silly to think that most people are anything like
> > you're cohorts. You're Buycycling's target market: the "fast
> > recreational" riders willing to spend lots of money to outrun middle age.
> >
> > Most Americans have one bike. It hangs in the garage. Being lazy is part
> > of it, fashion is part of it, but "danger! danger!" is certainly part of
> > it. This has been confirmed in many surveys done by competent people who
> > really want to understand the problem.
> > > Its fun riding on fun to ride bikes.
> > You need to expand your personal definition of "fun to ride bikes."
> > Those are not just delicate fifteen pound wonders. It's not unusual for
> > my wife to spontaneously say "This is fun" riding her touring bike home
> > from the grocery store. Last week we rode to a restaurant with two
> > little kids in the extended family, putzing our way through a grid of
> > residential streets. They both said they loved it. Hell, go to a
> > touristy beach town and look at the people having fun on single speed
> > coaster brake bikes with wide tires.
> > > I've ridden new stuff, and I've ridden old stuff, and I prefer the new stuff -- at least for weekend riding. Why ride some old ball and chain. YMMV.
> > I know your preferences, you know mine. But it's off the topic of Safety
> > Inflation.
> > >
> > >> But there doubtlessly were many people who bought helmets because riding
> > >> with any other hat seemed not safe enough. There were some who thought
> > >> caliper brakes don't stop well enough even for their low speed dry
> > >> weather riding. And we've read here about a few young racers who felt it
> > >> was scary to move one's hands to shift. Those are examples of safety
> > >> inflation. Other victims are those people who think it's way too
> > >> dangerous to ride a bike except on specially reserved pavement.
> > >>
> > >> I'm not so much bothered by people spending their excess money on
> > >> unnecessary "safety" measures. As you say, they're helping the economy.
> > >>
> > >> But I know that surveys repeatedly show a top reason people choose _not_
> > >> to ride bikes is "safety." They are falsely convinced that an ordinary
> > >> bike ride is terribly dangerous.
> > >>
> > >> And every time the public is told "Only a protected bike lane is safe
> > >> enough" or "You need super bright daytime running lights" or "Never,
> > >> ever, ride without a helmet," that harms cycling. It confirms the myth
> > >> that riding is super-risky and that the only safe way to travel is by
> > >> car. It causes parents to prevent their kids from riding.
> > >>
> > >> You live in a very unusual city - one whose residents probably still say
> > >> "Keep Portland weird." You may not see these effects (except for the
> > >> helmet culture and infra culture, which you accept). I can't count the
> > >> times I heard "Wow, you ride your bike to work? Aren't you afraid?" I
> > >> think this is bad for society.
> > >
> > > I see more adults on bicycles now than in the good old days, whenever those were.
> > You live in one of perhaps ten American cities where that can be said
> > with statistical confidence.
> > Kids are different, and even I was scared having my son ride to middle
> > school down a twisting road with a lot of blind turns. He did ride to
> > middle school on occasion.
> > Fine. But kids' bike sales have been trending down for a long time. It's
> > ludicrous to think "You must wear a helmet" has nothing to do with that..
> > Ditto for "It's not safe unless there's a bike lane."
> > > IMO, kid ridership is down in large part because parents are willing to drive their kids everywhere . . . and yes, they are afraid that something will happen to their kid and that they will end up on the 6:00PM news as the bad parents.
> > Thank you for recognizing and admitting that.
> > > It was a different era, and we were less precious, and parents were tough. A single-scoop ice cream cone was also a nickel. There is lots to pine-away about, some real and some imagined.
> > I'm simply describing one of the important differences. The phrase
> > "safety inflation" is mine, but others have expressed the same points.
> > I've got books about it.
> > > BTW, the "its so dangerous" comments usually come from some fat person on the elevator with a latte and doughnut.
> > I've gotten that sort of thing many times from people of normal weight
> > and fitness. I got it from college students.
> > It is code for "I'm too lazy to ride." I do wonder what portion of
> > would-be cyclists are not riding because it is "dangerous." When I get
> > the "it's dangerous" from other cyclists, they're often complaining
> > about real danger. There are lots of twisting roads around her that have
> > become suburban arterials that are demonstrably dangerous and are
> > miserable for riding -- but sometimes unavoidable. I have solid,
> > long-time cyclist friends who just refuse to ride in some places now.
> > One good thing about separate facilities -- assuming the facility
> > hasn't been swarmed by dog-walkers or homeless -- is that it is just
> > more peaceful. There are times when one just doesn't want to make a
> > point about "controlling traffic" and "taking the lane," being loud and
> > proud, etc., etc. F*** that. I'll just ride the path.
> > https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1654/7905/files/Marine_Drive_Trail.jpg?v=1552262333
> > I have former cyclist friends who say they are now too afraid to ride.
> > Nothing has changed significantly on the roads they used to ride.
> > They've just responded to the messaging. And as I said, more and more of
> > our club's rides use bike trails, some using them exclusively.
> >
> > Bike trails can be peaceful, especially if empty. (Our club's experience
> > is they are not safer; we've had far more serious crashes per mile on
> > trails than on roads - that's not even close.) Some bike trails are
> > useful. But sticking to bike trails is only slightly less limiting than
> > sticking to a Peloton exercise machine.
> >
> > Except in winter, I think almost everyone in a spin class is a person
> > who is afraid to really make use of a bicycle. They think real bicycling
> > is "dangerous" because of the messaging they've received. Any unbiased
> > look at relevant data shows they're wrong, but who cares about data?
> It must be hard being the only unafraid and authentic cyclist. Meanwhile, in the real world: (1) adults in the US did not commute in the '50s and '60s -- or even '70s. Or at least I never saw them, and I hardly ever saw an adult ride recreationally. Did you? My fifth grade teacher commuted in the '60s, but he was also national champion at the time. https://usbhof.org/inductee/bob-tetzlaff/ Way more adults ride now -- with or without facilities and notwithstanding the dreaded "safety inflation." (2) I have never once heard someone say that STI is necessary because DT shifting is dangerous. STI is just a lot more convenient. Imagine selling DT shifting to a current racer -- it would prompt eye-rolling, and these are kids who can pop wheelies on road bikes ala Peter Sagan. They're not afraid of taking their hands off the bars. All of the things you claim as safety inflation equipment are just better. (3) Some spin class people don't like riding on the road, and some do. My brother loved spin class, and he was a three-state mountain bike champion and a strong road rider. I did a century with his instructor and got throttled. Lots of people now ride Zwift and smart trainers who are world-class road racers. Stages bikes. They're the best. https://store.stagescycling.com/Smart-Bikes
>
> You hang in there as the standard bearer for the 1980s. I've moved on. I also moved on from the '60s and '70s, except for my track bike. But for those who want the Velo Orange or Rivendell experience, nobody is holding them back. All of this stuff is on the internet, and that's where people shop these days -- or at least start shopping. And its not like the Bohemian set is unfamiliar with the old stuff. There is even a book: https://bicycletrax..wordpress.com/2015/03/20/review-of-the-bohemian-guide-to-urban-cycling/ (what a whiner -- I want to stuff a squirrel in his spokes). Shops do not have Rasputin like power over purchasers, which is probably why we have a lot of shops with different products. https://www.clevercycles.com/bicycles/city-bikes/linus/ Be careful because a lot of the Velo Orange/Rivendell/Clever set are also big into separate facilities, which are the best places for riding reimagined boat anchors from the 1970s.

On 8/8/2021 3:15 PM, jbeattie wrote:

<snip>

> You hang in there as the standard bearer for the 1980s.

Someone's got to take on the task of ignoring all the data on cycling
safety, helmet benefits, cycling numbers, and cycling infrastructure. Be
happy that Frank has volunteered for that difficult position.

<snip>

But for those who want the Velo Orange or Rivendell experience, nobody
is holding them back.

Actually, what I call the "Palo Alto experience" riding around town on
Mixte frame three speeds (or 7 speeds) with a cute basket is alive and
well. My neighbor has two such bikes in his garage. Of course that
experience has gotten a lot more expensive, but it costs to be cool.
Don't forget Soma Fabrications in your list.

On Sunday, August 8, 2021 at 4:05:15 PM UTC-7, sms wrote:
> On 8/8/2021 3:15 PM, jbeattie wrote:
>
> <snip>
> > You hang in there as the standard bearer for the 1980s.
> Someone's got to take on the task of ignoring all the data on cycling
> safety, helmet benefits, cycling numbers, and cycling infrastructure. Be
> happy that Frank has volunteered for that difficult position.
>
> <snip>
> But for those who want the Velo Orange or Rivendell experience, nobody
> is holding them back.
> Actually, what I call the "Palo Alto experience" riding around town on
> Mixte frame three speeds (or 7 speeds) with a cute basket is alive and
> well. My neighbor has two such bikes in his garage. Of course that
> experience has gotten a lot more expensive, but it costs to be cool.
> Don't forget Soma Fabrications in your list.

Scharf, The problem with helmets is that although they work well for the most common sorts of accidents, it isn't that much of a help since the most common bicycling accident is sitting at a stop sign and overbalancing and falling down an striking your head. People will scream to the high heavens and a helmet saved their lives when it did nothing of the sort. Deadly accidents are clearly of one sort - being hit by a car traveling over 20 mph. So few people survive that kind of accident that whether or not a helmet had any effect is incidental. Also there are only tiny number of people that get into that sort of accident each year.

We were just arguing ,most of last week about young's modulus which is a ratio and hence has no or at least very little effect on bicycle design. A 2" 4130 tube has the same young's modulus as a 1' tube. What would you think would make a larger difference in the strength of a frame? A 1" tube or an materially identical 2" tube? Most designers are not engineers, they may know a hell of a lot about engineering but they are not engineers in the sense that Frank would approve of them. They improve their designs, they don't design them from scratch as some people would have you believe. Carbon fiber frames were exactly the same. They estimated the required strength and improved from there. They discovered very early that carbon fiber has to be very tightly compresses to maintain a voidless and strong structure. Vitus used over-the-counter carbon tubes and aluminum lugs. You can still buy these things off of Ebay. If you think that the aluminum Vitus was flexy you HAVE to ride one of those carbon rubber bands. But they didn't break because it is easy to get a very high compression when you are making a straight open ended tube. Trek uses more or less that method and that is why Trek failures are seldom and usually very minor.

Properly designed steel bikes are easy to come by now that everyone and their brother can heliarc. That Marin is a good bike. I just think that it is being used in an improper manner which also makes me wonder what it would do if you rode it hard enough in an MTB type of manner. The rebound flex of steel is at a natural frequency similar to man's reaction time. That is a formula for problems which frame makers solved by making the frame relatively stiff. What the hell - it worked.

Frank likes his steel bikes - what the hell, so did I. I still haven't ridden a bike better handling than the late Basso Loto with Didiaccia steel tubes. They were just perfectly oversize. But I was willing to move on to see it there was something better and Frank never was. I have this picture of him still using downtube shifters.

On Sunday, August 8, 2021 at 3:15:28 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
> >
> It must be hard being the only unafraid and authentic cyclist. Meanwhile, in the real world: (1) adults in the US did not commute in the '50s and '60s -- or even '70s. Or at least I never saw them, and I hardly ever saw an adult ride recreationally. Did you?

Adult bicycling in America essentially began in the 1970s "bike boom." Before that approximately zero adults rode.

For the last 30 years or so, American bike commuting mode share has been flat, consistently less than 1%.

> (2) I have never once heard someone say that STI is necessary because DT shifting is dangerous.

That statement was in an article much discussed here, the one using young racers to compare 1990s (IIRC) racing bikes
with modern racing bikes. A couple of the young guys worried about taking their hands off the hoods to shift gears.
They said it didn't feel safe.

> STI is just a lot more convenient. Imagine selling DT shifting to a current racer ...

Sure, as I've said perhaps 30 times, a racer needs brifters. But normal bicyclists don't need to change gears while standing
to catch up with an explosive breakaway. For them, the difference is the most minor convenience - not moving their hand
to shift if they happen to be riding the hoods. They still need to move their hands if they happen to be riding the tops, so I
guess it's time for you to be slagging on STI and promoting Di2 and multiple shift buttons, right? STI is _so_ mechanical!

> All of the things you claim as safety inflation equipment are just better.. (

It's "better" to have a large, fragile styrofoam hat to keep track of and protect from harm every time you want to ride a bike?
It's "better" to have strobe lights as bright as the sun glaring in the eyes of oncoming road users?
It's "better" to have to change your shirt just to ride a bike, to conform with the "always be super visible" hand wringing?

3) Some spin class people don't like riding on the road, and some do.

I never made any 100% claims. I said I believe most non-winter spin class denizens fear the road. I still think so, even though
there are exceptions.

> You hang in there as the standard bearer for the 1980s. I've moved on. I also moved on from the '60s and '70s, except for my track bike. But for those who want the Velo Orange or Rivendell experience, nobody is holding them back.

You're having great trouble keeping track of my main point. As I said, I'm not much bothered by people spending their excess
money on useless "safety" gear, whether it's a daytime blinky taillight or a bathmat that warns if the water's too hot. I do think
a lot of this is weird societal paranoia, making the safest society the earth has ever seen safer and safer, without limit. Spend
away, Jay!

My bigger objection is the dangerizing of bicycling that goes with, and beyond, that general paranoia. I've read enough and
heard enough "He should have worn a helmet" or "He shouldn't ride wearing dark clothes." Heck, in another forum there's a
guy who told the victim of a 6" clearance punishment pass "Well, that could have been avoided if you had watched your
mirror and acknowledged the presence of the oncoming motorist." (Right, do that for every oncoming car!)

Imposing ever more "safety" requirements on bicycling _must_ dissuade people from riding, and is very likely to harm
those who do choose to ride, because they can never keep up with the extremes of the "safety" advice.

(Do you use the loud electric horn Scharf has touted?)

- Frank Krygowski

On Sun, 8 Aug 2021 20:29:34 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, August 8, 2021 at 3:15:28 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
>> >
>> It must be hard being the only unafraid and authentic cyclist. Meanwhile, in the real world: (1) adults in the US did not commute in the '50s and '60s -- or even '70s. Or at least I never saw them, and I hardly ever saw an adult ride recreationally. Did you?
>
>Adult bicycling in America essentially began in the 1970s "bike boom." Before that approximately zero adults rode.
>
>For the last 30 years or so, American bike commuting mode share has been flat, consistently less than 1%.
>
>> (2) I have never once heard someone say that STI is necessary because DT shifting is dangerous.
>
>That statement was in an article much discussed here, the one using young racers to compare 1990s (IIRC) racing bikes
>with modern racing bikes. A couple of the young guys worried about taking their hands off the hoods to shift gears.
>They said it didn't feel safe.
>
>> STI is just a lot more convenient. Imagine selling DT shifting to a current racer ...
>
>Sure, as I've said perhaps 30 times, a racer needs brifters. But normal bicyclists don't need to change gears while standing
>to catch up with an explosive breakaway. For them, the difference is the most minor convenience - not moving their hand
>to shift if they happen to be riding the hoods. They still need to move their hands if they happen to be riding the tops, so I
>guess it's time for you to be slagging on STI and promoting Di2 and multiple shift buttons, right? STI is _so_ mechanical!
>
>> All of the things you claim as safety inflation equipment are just better. (
>
>It's "better" to have a large, fragile styrofoam hat to keep track of and protect from harm every time you want to ride a bike?
>It's "better" to have strobe lights as bright as the sun glaring in the eyes of oncoming road users?
>It's "better" to have to change your shirt just to ride a bike, to conform with the "always be super visible" hand wringing?
>
>3) Some spin class people don't like riding on the road, and some do.
>
>I never made any 100% claims. I said I believe most non-winter spin class denizens fear the road. I still think so, even though
>there are exceptions.
>
>> You hang in there as the standard bearer for the 1980s. I've moved on. I also moved on from the '60s and '70s, except for my track bike. But for those who want the Velo Orange or Rivendell experience, nobody is holding them back.
>
>You're having great trouble keeping track of my main point. As I said, I'm not much bothered by people spending their excess
>money on useless "safety" gear, whether it's a daytime blinky taillight or a bathmat that warns if the water's too hot. I do think
>a lot of this is weird societal paranoia, making the safest society the earth has ever seen safer and safer, without limit. Spend
>away, Jay!
>
>My bigger objection is the dangerizing of bicycling that goes with, and beyond, that general paranoia. I've read enough and
>heard enough "He should have worn a helmet" or "He shouldn't ride wearing dark clothes." Heck, in another forum there's a
>guy who told the victim of a 6" clearance punishment pass "Well, that could have been avoided if you had watched your
>mirror and acknowledged the presence of the oncoming motorist." (Right, do that for every oncoming car!)
>
>Imposing ever more "safety" requirements on bicycling _must_ dissuade people from riding, and is very likely to harm
>those who do choose to ride, because they can never keep up with the extremes of the "safety" advice.
>
>(Do you use the loud electric horn Scharf has touted?)
>
>- Frank Krygowski
>

But Frank, the world is just so dangerious these days.

As proof of this I believe that I've mentioned that I recently bought
a ladder from Home Pro and there is a label on it that says,
"Improper use of this device may result in injury or death."

Now I remember my Granddad had a ladder and my father had a ladder and
neither of them were labeled as being unsafe so, logically, as ladders
now require a label testifying to their danger, it must indicate that
ladders have become far more dangerious then they were "back in the
day".

Perhaps bicycles, being inanimate objects like ladders, have also
grown more dangerious.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Saturday, August 7, 2021 at 12:51:39 AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
[more of his usual overwrought, neurotic luddism]

Threads like this make me laugh. I probably shouldn't laugh. I should cry, because excitable idiots like Frank Krygowski are the best guarantee that cycling will never enter the mainstream in America.

But then again, I remember that Franki-boy once aspired to be "a spokesman for bicycles" -- until the bicycles revolted, held a caucus and issued a press release that they would under no circumstances be represented by such a clumsily counterproductive clown as Frank Krygowski.

Seriously, a desire to be a spokesman for inanimate objects like bicycles tells you everything you need to know about Krygoski: he has no people skills. People with people skills, never mind those so lacking in self-consciousness that they put themselves forward as spokesmen to tell others what they should do, are probably the most undesired and undesirable of "representatives", unless you're running a Chinese-style re-education camp on the Mayor Scarf pattern, where rude iterated insistence on obviously wrong "facts" of the kind Krygowski spouts all the time will eventually drive the victims off their heads.

Eventually the Krygowski Disease (stupidity matched to comic self-righteousness) will spread to all of Ohio.

There could be a B-movie in Krygowski's descent into senescence and it's effect on Ohio, but there is still some argument in medical circles about Franki-boy being as useless when younger as he is now when he is ll shrivelled up with age, which some consider points merely to early senescence while others consider it a side-effect of exposure to Vehicular Cycling founder John Forester.

Andre Jute
"So sad." -- Donald Trump

On Saturday, August 7, 2021 at 9:33:21 PM UTC+1, jbeattie wrote to the execrable Krygowski:

> You imagine a world of people cowering at home or out moping around with GPS tracking systems. I am entirely unfamiliar with your world. I'm about to go out for a roll-around ride, still recovering from my own injuries, and I will see dozens of riders all dressed up in Lycra, with helmets on bikes with discs, STI, CF, none cowering in fear. Seriously, on a sunny day around here -- which is like every day this summer -- I see zillions of riders who are anti-Franks and apparently unafraid, notwithstanding the safety inflation perpetrated by Big Safety. And this is on ordinary suburban streets and not facilities.
..
Hell, yes, I once went up Binn Chaorach without even telling my family where I was heading (because I never bothered to ask which mountain my chums and I would be climbing), without my doctor (who with my usual nurse was climbing another mountain I'd already done) and with only a vet and his pet nurse (animals okay? -- he was gay and she was lesbian) in attendance. Of course, I was roundly abused for my recklessness by every safety freak channeling Krygowski.All right, all right, Franki-boy, I promise not to do it again, and I'll definitely wear my bright aluminium anti-alien helmet with rhe propeller on top if I do anything ever again in my life except cower in a darkened room.
..
Andre Jute
I left my reckless yoof behind when I turned 70, but only because my cardiologist insisted.