I just read the back of the can of my Coleman fuel (I use a camp stove and lantern during our PG&E rotating power outages), and see that it indeed contains naptha. It doesn't say how much of it is naptha. Maybe its data sheet would have that info. What confused me was, first, that when I used to go backpacking we would buy white gas in bulk from the local oil dealer; that's what we always used in our camp stoves and I thought it was still being used. Second, the big claimed advantage of using naptha as a cleaning solvent was that it had a high flash point, and I don't understand how a high-flash-point solvent can work very well as a stove fuel. I suspect that Coleman fuel has something in it besides naptha to make it burn more readily, but I don't know.

On 9/1/2021 9:50 AM, William Crowell wrote:
> I just read the back of the can of my Coleman fuel (I use a camp stove and lantern during our PG&E rotating power outages), and see that it indeed contains naptha. It doesn't say how much of it is naptha. Maybe its data sheet would have that info. What confused me was, first, that when I used to go backpacking we would buy white gas in bulk from the local oil dealer; that's what we always used in our camp stoves and I thought it was still being used. Second, the big claimed advantage of using naptha as a cleaning solvent was that it had a high flash point, and I don't understand how a high-flash-point solvent can work very well as a stove fuel. I suspect that Coleman fuel has something in it besides naptha to make it burn more readily, but I don't know.
>

Zippo lighter fluid is naptha if you only need a small amount.

Then there's semantics. Here's 'white gas':
https://www.campingmaniacs.com/white-gas

Which is utterly different from 'white gas':

https://forums.iboats.com/threads/white-gas-can-someone-refresh-my-memory.625401/

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Wednesday, September 1, 2021 at 8:29:06 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 9/1/2021 9:50 AM, William Crowell wrote:
> > I just read the back of the can of my Coleman fuel (I use a camp stove and lantern during our PG&E rotating power outages), and see that it indeed contains naptha. It doesn't say how much of it is naptha. Maybe its data sheet would have that info. What confused me was, first, that when I used to go backpacking we would buy white gas in bulk from the local oil dealer; that's what we always used in our camp stoves and I thought it was still being used. Second, the big claimed advantage of using naptha as a cleaning solvent was that it had a high flash point, and I don't understand how a high-flash-point solvent can work very well as a stove fuel. I suspect that Coleman fuel has something in it besides naptha to make it burn more readily, but I don't know.
> >
> Zippo lighter fluid is naptha if you only need a small amount.
>
> Then there's semantics. Here's 'white gas':
> https://www.campingmaniacs.com/white-gas
>
> Which is utterly different from 'white gas':
>
> https://forums.iboats.com/threads/white-gas-can-someone-refresh-my-memory..625401/

And used as a solvent, I don't think it makes a lot of difference. You can use mineral spirits or MEK. Pick a hydrocarbon -- just don't work around an open flame., e.g. Frank applying his chain wax with a blow-torch.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Wednesday, September 1, 2021 at 8:29:06 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 9/1/2021 9:50 AM, William Crowell wrote:
> > I just read the back of the can of my Coleman fuel (I use a camp stove and lantern during our PG&E rotating power outages), and see that it indeed contains naptha. It doesn't say how much of it is naptha. Maybe its data sheet would have that info. What confused me was, first, that when I used to go backpacking we would buy white gas in bulk from the local oil dealer; that's what we always used in our camp stoves and I thought it was still being used. Second, the big claimed advantage of using naptha as a cleaning solvent was that it had a high flash point, and I don't understand how a high-flash-point solvent can work very well as a stove fuel. I suspect that Coleman fuel has something in it besides naptha to make it burn more readily, but I don't know.
> >
> Zippo lighter fluid is naptha if you only need a small amount.
>
> Then there's semantics. Here's 'white gas':
> https://www.campingmaniacs.com/white-gas
>
> Which is utterly different from 'white gas':
>
> https://forums.iboats.com/threads/white-gas-can-someone-refresh-my-memory..625401/
Are you saying that White Gas is either Naptha or real unleaded gasoline? My stove required the use of alcohol to preheat the burners before turning the fuel on at the same time that the alcohol was ready to extinguish. Bit tricky I suppose but I was pretty sure that this was kerosene since I have a 5 gallon can of it down in the garage in case it is needed if the gas is shut off at an inappropriate time. We had that on a couple occasions when they were working on the street pipes.

On 9/1/2021 10:59 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 1, 2021 at 8:29:06 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 9/1/2021 9:50 AM, William Crowell wrote:
>>> I just read the back of the can of my Coleman fuel (I use a camp stove and lantern during our PG&E rotating power outages), and see that it indeed contains naptha. It doesn't say how much of it is naptha. Maybe its data sheet would have that info. What confused me was, first, that when I used to go backpacking we would buy white gas in bulk from the local oil dealer; that's what we always used in our camp stoves and I thought it was still being used. Second, the big claimed advantage of using naptha as a cleaning solvent was that it had a high flash point, and I don't understand how a high-flash-point solvent can work very well as a stove fuel. I suspect that Coleman fuel has something in it besides naptha to make it burn more readily, but I don't know.
>>>
>> Zippo lighter fluid is naptha if you only need a small amount.
>>
>> Then there's semantics. Here's 'white gas':
>> https://www.campingmaniacs.com/white-gas
>>
>> Which is utterly different from 'white gas':
>>
>> https://forums.iboats.com/threads/white-gas-can-someone-refresh-my-memory.625401/
> Are you saying that White Gas is either Naptha or real unleaded gasoline? My stove required the use of alcohol to preheat the burners before turning the fuel on at the same time that the alcohol was ready to extinguish. Bit tricky I suppose but I was pretty sure that this was kerosene since I have a 5 gallon can of it down in the garage in case it is needed if the gas is shut off at an inappropriate time. We had that on a couple occasions when they were working on the street pipes.
>

See also 'gas' which is either:
* a material in a state of lower density than fluids, or

* propane or propane with various related materials, or

* petrol, or

* flatulence

Wordplay is not chemistry.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Wed, 1 Sep 2021 07:50:37 -0700 (PDT), William Crowell
<retroguybilly@gmail.com> wrote:

>I just read the back of the can of my Coleman fuel (I use a camp stove and lantern during our PG&E rotating power outages), and see that it indeed contains naptha. It doesn't say how much of it is naptha. Maybe its data sheet would have that info.

100% naphtha depending on which exact hydrocarbons the refinery throws
into the mix:
<http://ferris.msdssoftware.com/ImageDir/i011DA2E.pdf>
INGREDIENT NAME, CAS #, EXPOSURE LIMITS, PERCENT BY VOLUME
Hydrotreated Light Distillate, CAS # 68410-97-9, OSHA-500 ppm, 100.0
This product contains:
*Cyclohexane, CAS # 110-82-7, OSHA-300 ppm, ACGIH-300 ppm
*Nonane, CAS # 111-84-2, ACGIH-200 ppm
*Octane, CAS # 111-65-9, OSHA-400 ppm, ACGIH-300 ppm
*Heptane, CAS # 142-82-5, OSHA-500 ppm, ACGIH-400 ppm
*Pentane, CAS # 109-66-0, OSHA-1000 ppm, ACGIH-600 ppm

>What confused me was, first, that when I used to go backpacking we would buy white gas in bulk from the local oil dealer; that's what we always used in our camp stoves and I thought it was still being used.

As others have noted, the exact composition and definition of naphtha
(and white gas) can vary.

>Second, the big claimed advantage of using naptha as a cleaning solvent was that it had a high flash point, and I don't understand how a high-flash-point solvent can work very well as a stove fuel. I suspect that Coleman fuel has something in it besides naptha to make it burn more readily, but I don't know.

The flash point is not the temperature where the fuel spontaneously
ignites, but rather the temperature where it begins to volatize and
can be ignited:
<https://mrpl.co.in/sites/default/files/Naphtha/MSDS_Naphtha_1436163877.pdf>
3. FIRE AND EXPLOSIVE HAZARDS DATA
Explosion / Flammability:
Highly flammable, moderately explosive,
Flash Point: -20°C to -50°C (Exists in the form of Vapor at ambient
Temperature)
Flammability Range (LEL to UEL): 1.1% to 5.9%

The advantages of naphtha are that it evaporates slowly, burns hot,
doesn't easily explode, burns fast, burns brighly, and doesn't smell
too horribly:
<https://www.campingmaniacs.com/white-gas>
In other words, perfect for camping, lighting, and cooking.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Wednesday, September 1, 2021 at 10:24:02 AM UTC-7, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wed, 1 Sep 2021 07:50:37 -0700 (PDT), William Crowell
> <retrog...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >I just read the back of the can of my Coleman fuel (I use a camp stove and lantern during our PG&E rotating power outages), and see that it indeed contains naptha. It doesn't say how much of it is naptha. Maybe its data sheet would have that info.
> 100% naphtha depending on which exact hydrocarbons the refinery throws
> into the mix:
> <http://ferris.msdssoftware.com/ImageDir/i011DA2E.pdf>
> INGREDIENT NAME, CAS #, EXPOSURE LIMITS, PERCENT BY VOLUME
> Hydrotreated Light Distillate, CAS # 68410-97-9, OSHA-500 ppm, 100.0
> This product contains:
> *Cyclohexane, CAS # 110-82-7, OSHA-300 ppm, ACGIH-300 ppm
> *Nonane, CAS # 111-84-2, ACGIH-200 ppm
> *Octane, CAS # 111-65-9, OSHA-400 ppm, ACGIH-300 ppm
> *Heptane, CAS # 142-82-5, OSHA-500 ppm, ACGIH-400 ppm
> *Pentane, CAS # 109-66-0, OSHA-1000 ppm, ACGIH-600 ppm
> >What confused me was, first, that when I used to go backpacking we would buy white gas in bulk from the local oil dealer; that's what we always used in our camp stoves and I thought it was still being used.
> As others have noted, the exact composition and definition of naphtha
> (and white gas) can vary.
> >Second, the big claimed advantage of using naptha as a cleaning solvent was that it had a high flash point, and I don't understand how a high-flash-point solvent can work very well as a stove fuel. I suspect that Coleman fuel has something in it besides naptha to make it burn more readily, but I don't know.
> The flash point is not the temperature where the fuel spontaneously
> ignites, but rather the temperature where it begins to volatize and
> can be ignited:
> <https://mrpl.co.in/sites/default/files/Naphtha/MSDS_Naphtha_1436163877.pdf>
> 3. FIRE AND EXPLOSIVE HAZARDS DATA
> Explosion / Flammability:
> Highly flammable, moderately explosive,
> Flash Point: -20°C to -50°C (Exists in the form of Vapor at ambient
> Temperature)
> Flammability Range (LEL to UEL): 1.1% to 5.9%
>
> The advantages of naphtha are that it evaporates slowly, burns hot,
> doesn't easily explode, burns fast, burns brighly, and doesn't smell
> too horribly:
> <https://www.campingmaniacs.com/white-gas>
> In other words, perfect for camping, lighting, and cooking.
White gas or Naptha are flammable liquids while kerosene is a combustible liquid. This means that kerosene is safe at room temperatures while the others aren't.

On 9/1/2021 1:52 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 1, 2021 at 10:24:02 AM UTC-7, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Wed, 1 Sep 2021 07:50:37 -0700 (PDT), William Crowell
>> <retrog...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I just read the back of the can of my Coleman fuel (I use a camp stove and lantern during our PG&E rotating power outages), and see that it indeed contains naptha. It doesn't say how much of it is naptha. Maybe its data sheet would have that info.
>> 100% naphtha depending on which exact hydrocarbons the refinery throws
>> into the mix:
>> <http://ferris.msdssoftware.com/ImageDir/i011DA2E.pdf>
>> INGREDIENT NAME, CAS #, EXPOSURE LIMITS, PERCENT BY VOLUME
>> Hydrotreated Light Distillate, CAS # 68410-97-9, OSHA-500 ppm, 100.0
>> This product contains:
>> *Cyclohexane, CAS # 110-82-7, OSHA-300 ppm, ACGIH-300 ppm
>> *Nonane, CAS # 111-84-2, ACGIH-200 ppm
>> *Octane, CAS # 111-65-9, OSHA-400 ppm, ACGIH-300 ppm
>> *Heptane, CAS # 142-82-5, OSHA-500 ppm, ACGIH-400 ppm
>> *Pentane, CAS # 109-66-0, OSHA-1000 ppm, ACGIH-600 ppm
>>> What confused me was, first, that when I used to go backpacking we would buy white gas in bulk from the local oil dealer; that's what we always used in our camp stoves and I thought it was still being used.
>> As others have noted, the exact composition and definition of naphtha
>> (and white gas) can vary.
>>> Second, the big claimed advantage of using naptha as a cleaning solvent was that it had a high flash point, and I don't understand how a high-flash-point solvent can work very well as a stove fuel. I suspect that Coleman fuel has something in it besides naptha to make it burn more readily, but I don't know.
>> The flash point is not the temperature where the fuel spontaneously
>> ignites, but rather the temperature where it begins to volatize and
>> can be ignited:
>> <https://mrpl.co.in/sites/default/files/Naphtha/MSDS_Naphtha_1436163877.pdf>
>> 3. FIRE AND EXPLOSIVE HAZARDS DATA
>> Explosion / Flammability:
>> Highly flammable, moderately explosive,
>> Flash Point: -20°C to -50°C (Exists in the form of Vapor at ambient
>> Temperature)
>> Flammability Range (LEL to UEL): 1.1% to 5.9%
>>
>> The advantages of naphtha are that it evaporates slowly, burns hot,
>> doesn't easily explode, burns fast, burns brighly, and doesn't smell
>> too horribly:
>> <https://www.campingmaniacs.com/white-gas>
>> In other words, perfect for camping, lighting, and cooking.
> White gas or Naptha are flammable liquids while kerosene is a combustible liquid. This means that kerosene is safe at room temperatures while the others aren't.
>

Thank you I learned something from that:

https://techiescientist.com/combustible-vs-flammable/

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Wed, 1 Sep 2021 11:52:28 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>White gas or Naptha are flammable liquids while kerosene is a combustible liquid. This means that kerosene is safe at room temperatures while the others aren't.

Nobody was comparing naphtha with kerosene, but you're always welcome
to expand the topic for your convenience.

Neither fuel is "safe" at room temperature (25°C)

"The definitions of combustible and flammable liquids under 29 CFR
1926 and 29 CFR 1910."
<https://www.osha.gov/laws-regs/standardinterpretations/2010-07-14>
Note that the flash point of naphtha (Exists in the form of vapor at
ambient temperature) is -20°C to -50°C and is therefore both
combustible and flammable. The flash point of kerosene is about 38°C,
which also qualifies as both combustible and flammable. Flash point
is the temperature where the liquid begins to volatilize, making the
vapor combustible. Liquids do not burn. Only vapors burn. In order
to get either fuel to actually explode, it needs to be above the
auto-ignition temperature, which is 255-270°C for naphtha and 220°C
for kerosene.
<https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/flash-point-autoignition-temperature-kindling-hydrocarbons-alkane-alkene-d_1941.html>

In order to maximize the explosive energy, the fuel-air ratio needs to
be near the ideal stoichiometric value. Anything off the ideal value
is called "burning" instead of an explosion. I'm not sure of what you
mean by "safe". I guess it's ok for both naphtha and kerosene to
burn, but not save to explode.

[15 minutes wasted]

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Wed, 01 Sep 2021 10:29:05 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 9/1/2021 9:50 AM, William Crowell wrote:
>> I just read the back of the can of my Coleman fuel (I use a camp stove and lantern during our PG&E rotating power outages), and see that it indeed contains naptha. It doesn't say how much of it is naptha. Maybe its data sheet would have that info. What confused me was, first, that when I used to go backpacking we would buy white gas in bulk from the local oil dealer; that's what we always used in our camp stoves and I thought it was still being used. Second, the big claimed advantage of using naptha as a cleaning solvent was that it had a high flash point, and I don't understand how a high-flash-point solvent can work very well as a stove fuel. I suspect that Coleman fuel has something in it besides naptha to make it burn more readily, but I don't know.
>>
>
>Zippo lighter fluid is naptha if you only need a small amount.
>
>Then there's semantics. Here's 'white gas':
>https://www.campingmaniacs.com/white-gas
>
>Which is utterly different from 'white gas':
>
>https://forums.iboats.com/threads/white-gas-can-someone-refresh-my-memory.625401/

The problem is that "Naphtha", at least in the petroleum industry is a
rather nebulas term and can apply to a number of products. see
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naphtha
Note the comment, under "Fuel" that "one outdoor equipment manufacture
MSR publish a list of trade names and translations to help outdoor
enthusiasts obtain the correct product in various countries".
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wednesday, September 1, 2021 at 1:10:38 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 9/1/2021 1:52 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Wednesday, September 1, 2021 at 10:24:02 AM UTC-7, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On Wed, 1 Sep 2021 07:50:37 -0700 (PDT), William Crowell
> >> <retrog...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> I just read the back of the can of my Coleman fuel (I use a camp stove and lantern during our PG&E rotating power outages), and see that it indeed contains naptha. It doesn't say how much of it is naptha. Maybe its data sheet would have that info.
> >> 100% naphtha depending on which exact hydrocarbons the refinery throws
> >> into the mix:
> >> <http://ferris.msdssoftware.com/ImageDir/i011DA2E.pdf>
> >> INGREDIENT NAME, CAS #, EXPOSURE LIMITS, PERCENT BY VOLUME
> >> Hydrotreated Light Distillate, CAS # 68410-97-9, OSHA-500 ppm, 100.0
> >> This product contains:
> >> *Cyclohexane, CAS # 110-82-7, OSHA-300 ppm, ACGIH-300 ppm
> >> *Nonane, CAS # 111-84-2, ACGIH-200 ppm
> >> *Octane, CAS # 111-65-9, OSHA-400 ppm, ACGIH-300 ppm
> >> *Heptane, CAS # 142-82-5, OSHA-500 ppm, ACGIH-400 ppm
> >> *Pentane, CAS # 109-66-0, OSHA-1000 ppm, ACGIH-600 ppm
> >>> What confused me was, first, that when I used to go backpacking we would buy white gas in bulk from the local oil dealer; that's what we always used in our camp stoves and I thought it was still being used.
> >> As others have noted, the exact composition and definition of naphtha
> >> (and white gas) can vary.
> >>> Second, the big claimed advantage of using naptha as a cleaning solvent was that it had a high flash point, and I don't understand how a high-flash-point solvent can work very well as a stove fuel. I suspect that Coleman fuel has something in it besides naptha to make it burn more readily, but I don't know.
> >> The flash point is not the temperature where the fuel spontaneously
> >> ignites, but rather the temperature where it begins to volatize and
> >> can be ignited:
> >> <https://mrpl.co.in/sites/default/files/Naphtha/MSDS_Naphtha_1436163877.pdf>
> >> 3. FIRE AND EXPLOSIVE HAZARDS DATA
> >> Explosion / Flammability:
> >> Highly flammable, moderately explosive,
> >> Flash Point: -20°C to -50°C (Exists in the form of Vapor at ambient
> >> Temperature)
> >> Flammability Range (LEL to UEL): 1.1% to 5.9%
> >>
> >> The advantages of naphtha are that it evaporates slowly, burns hot,
> >> doesn't easily explode, burns fast, burns brighly, and doesn't smell
> >> too horribly:
> >> <https://www.campingmaniacs.com/white-gas>
> >> In other words, perfect for camping, lighting, and cooking.
> > White gas or Naptha are flammable liquids while kerosene is a combustible liquid. This means that kerosene is safe at room temperatures while the others aren't.
> >
> Thank you I learned something from that:
>
> https://techiescientist.com/combustible-vs-flammable/

Better not show that article to Jeff, he disagrees with anything and everything that contradicts what he has to say to the world about him.

On Wednesday, September 1, 2021 at 2:37:25 PM UTC-7, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wed, 1 Sep 2021 11:52:28 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >White gas or Naptha are flammable liquids while kerosene is a combustible liquid. This means that kerosene is safe at room temperatures while the others aren't.
> Nobody was comparing naphtha with kerosene, but you're always welcome
> to expand the topic for your convenience.
>
> Neither fuel is "safe" at room temperature (25°C)
>
> "The definitions of combustible and flammable liquids under 29 CFR
> 1926 and 29 CFR 1910."
> <https://www.osha.gov/laws-regs/standardinterpretations/2010-07-14>
> Note that the flash point of naphtha (Exists in the form of vapor at
> ambient temperature) is -20°C to -50°C and is therefore both
> combustible and flammable. The flash point of kerosene is about 38°C,
> which also qualifies as both combustible and flammable. Flash point
> is the temperature where the liquid begins to volatilize, making the
> vapor combustible. Liquids do not burn. Only vapors burn. In order
> to get either fuel to actually explode, it needs to be above the
> auto-ignition temperature, which is 255-270°C for naphtha and 220°C
> for kerosene.
> <https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/flash-point-autoignition-temperature-kindling-hydrocarbons-alkane-alkene-d_1941.html>
>
> In order to maximize the explosive energy, the fuel-air ratio needs to
> be near the ideal stoichiometric value. Anything off the ideal value
> is called "burning" instead of an explosion. I'm not sure of what you
> mean by "safe". I guess it's ok for both naphtha and kerosene to
> burn, but not save to explode.
>
> [15 minutes wasted]

I suppose that a jackass like you will sooner listen to John's reference than someone that has actually worked with the stuff - but for you entirely uneducated discussion: " naphtha may also be crude oil or refined products such as kerosene"

Can you read that moron? Kerosene IS one of the materials referred to as Naphtha. But I'm the one changing the subject right? Not some dumb ass that that couldn't find his ass with both hands tied behind his back.

On 2021-09-01, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> On 9/1/2021 9:50 AM, William Crowell wrote:
>> I just read the back of the can of my Coleman fuel (I use a camp stove and lantern during our PG&E rotating power outages), and see that it indeed contains naptha. It doesn't say how much of it is naptha. Maybe its data sheet would have that info. What confused me was, first, that when I used to go backpacking we would buy white gas in bulk from the local oil dealer; that's what we always used in our camp stoves and I thought it was still being used. Second, the big claimed advantage of using naptha as a cleaning solvent was that it had a high flash point, and I don't understand how a high-flash-point solvent can work very well as a stove fuel. I suspect that Coleman fuel has something in it besides naptha to make it burn more readily, but I don't know.
>>
>
> Zippo lighter fluid is naptha if you only need a small amount.
>
> Then there's semantics. Here's 'white gas':
> https://www.campingmaniacs.com/white-gas
>
> Which is utterly different from 'white gas':
>
> https://forums.iboats.com/threads/white-gas-can-someone-refresh-my-memory.625401/
>

Thanks for all this info, but in any case I'd love to get fuel for $3 a
gallon or so.
The lowest price I remember for gasoline during "gas wars" was 19.9 cents
per gallon and 22.9 was when the 'war' was not going on.

The stuff I just got at Walmart ("Crown" brand) was about $10.50 for a
gallon.
"Curmudgeons are us".

On 9/1/2021 7:17 PM, pH wrote:
> On 2021-09-01, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> On 9/1/2021 9:50 AM, William Crowell wrote:
>>> I just read the back of the can of my Coleman fuel (I use a camp stove and lantern during our PG&E rotating power outages), and see that it indeed contains naptha. It doesn't say how much of it is naptha. Maybe its data sheet would have that info. What confused me was, first, that when I used to go backpacking we would buy white gas in bulk from the local oil dealer; that's what we always used in our camp stoves and I thought it was still being used. Second, the big claimed advantage of using naptha as a cleaning solvent was that it had a high flash point, and I don't understand how a high-flash-point solvent can work very well as a stove fuel. I suspect that Coleman fuel has something in it besides naptha to make it burn more readily, but I don't know.
>>>
>>
>> Zippo lighter fluid is naptha if you only need a small amount.
>>
>> Then there's semantics. Here's 'white gas':
>> https://www.campingmaniacs.com/white-gas
>>
>> Which is utterly different from 'white gas':
>>
>> https://forums.iboats.com/threads/white-gas-can-someone-refresh-my-memory.625401/
>>
>
> Thanks for all this info, but in any case I'd love to get fuel for $3 a
> gallon or so.
> The lowest price I remember for gasoline during "gas wars" was 19.9 cents
> per gallon and 22.9 was when the 'war' was not going on.
>
> The stuff I just got at Walmart ("Crown" brand) was about $10.50 for a
> gallon.
> "Curmudgeons are us".
>

I believe you but you aren't buying 15 gallons of lantern
fuel a week (unless you're in Louisiana this week).

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 2021-09-02, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> On 9/1/2021 7:17 PM, pH wrote:
>> On 2021-09-01, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>> On 9/1/2021 9:50 AM, William Crowell wrote:
>>>> I just read the back of the can of my Coleman fuel (I use a camp stove and lantern during our PG&E rotating power outages), and see that it indeed contains naptha. It doesn't say how much of it is naptha. Maybe its data sheet would have that info. What confused me was, first, that when I used to go backpacking we would buy white gas in bulk from the local oil dealer; that's what we always used in our camp stoves and I thought it was still being used. Second, the big claimed advantage of using naptha as a cleaning solvent was that it had a high flash point, and I don't understand how a high-flash-point solvent can work very well as a stove fuel. I suspect that Coleman fuel has something in it besides naptha to make it burn more readily, but I don't know.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Zippo lighter fluid is naptha if you only need a small amount.
>>>
>>> Then there's semantics. Here's 'white gas':
>>> https://www.campingmaniacs.com/white-gas
>>>
>>> Which is utterly different from 'white gas':
>>>
>>> https://forums.iboats.com/threads/white-gas-can-someone-refresh-my-memory.625401/
>>>
>>
>> Thanks for all this info, but in any case I'd love to get fuel for $3 a
>> gallon or so.
>> The lowest price I remember for gasoline during "gas wars" was 19.9 cents
>> per gallon and 22.9 was when the 'war' was not going on.
>>
>> The stuff I just got at Walmart ("Crown" brand) was about $10.50 for a
>> gallon.
>> "Curmudgeons are us".
>>
>
> I believe you but you aren't buying 15 gallons of lantern
> fuel a week (unless you're in Louisiana this week).
>

Well, if I bought 15 gallons per week I would only do that for one week and
then use most of it up.

What I would like is to get 5 gallon (19 litre) tins (kerosene can be had
that way...in fact, I'd use one of my old kerosene cans to get it, if it
were available in bulk again (Coleman fuel, that is.).

I've got 20 or 30 lanterns and at least five stoves.

I routinely use the Colemans to make my morning coffee and usually have a
lantern going at night when I'm out on my back deck...do I do go through
more Coleman fuel than most. But this has nothing to do with bikes..oh yes!
Cleaning freewheels.

Six speed Suntour Freewheels....as God intended.

ph In Aptos

On Wed, 1 Sep 2021 16:27:03 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>I suppose that a jackass like you will sooner listen to John's reference than someone that has actually worked with the stuff - but for you entirely uneducated discussion: " naphtha may also be crude oil or refined products such as kerosene"
>
>Can you read that moron? Kerosene IS one of the materials referred to as Naphtha. But I'm the one changing the subject right? Not some dumb ass that that couldn't find his ass with both hands tied behind his back.

Ever try burning kerosene (or jet fuel) in a Coleman lantern made for
burning naphtha? I have and it's really difficult to get it to burn
properly. If you do manage to get kerosene to light, turning it down
or off for less than a second will extinguish the burner and require
another pre-heating cycle. In a Coleman 237 kerosene lantern, there's
a fuel bowl under the generator tube which is filled with isopropyl
alcohol. The alcohol in the bowl is ignited, which pre-heats the
generator (burner) tube. When the alcohol is almost consumed, the
lantern can be lit with kerosene. In other words kerosene and naphtha
burn quite differently. I couldn't find anything that refereed to
kerosene as the same as naphtha. Corroborating reference please?

As for "working with the stuff", I used to collect Coleman lanterns. I
had a kerosene burning model 237, but sold it about 10 years ago. Too
much trouble to start and smelled awful. However, the big problem was
that it had only two intensity levels. Super bright or off with
nothing in between. When I tried to turn it down, it turned off
instead.

I'm currently down to 5 fuel lanterns, 4 fuel camp stoves, 4 fuel
hiking stoves, 5 propane lanterns, 1 propane hiking stove, 1 butane
stove, 1 catalytic heater, and a few boxes of parts. At one time, I
think I had about 30 assorted lanterns. If you ask me nicely, I'll
arrange them on my deck and post a photograph. I'm hardly an expert
on naphtha fuel burners, but I have worked with them.

Coleman Kerosene Models
<https://classicpressurelamps.com/threads/coleman-kerosene-models.3178/>

Coleman kerosene lantern videos
<https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=kerosene+coleman+lantern>

[23 minutes wasted]

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Thu, 2 Sep 2021 02:55:09 -0000 (UTC), pH <wNOSPAMp@gmail.org>
wrote:

>What I would like is to get 5 gallon (19 litre) tins (kerosene can be had
>that way...in fact, I'd use one of my old kerosene cans to get it, if it
>were available in bulk again (Coleman fuel, that is.).
>
>I've got 20 or 30 lanterns and at least five stoves.

Well, you could distill gasoline into white gas (Coleman fuel). Figure
on about 80% volumetric efficiency. At today's regular gasoline price
of $4.25/gallon (including taxes), that's:
$4.25 / 0.8 = $5.30/gallon
for the resultant white gas.

"How to make Coleman fuel with a mini 1 ltr table top unit"
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXg-ERp5IY8>

"Let's Make White Gas Camp Fuel # 1"
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51PY1PxyUyM>

"Distilling Gasoline"
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fY6stOum0wM>

However, there's a catch. I have no idea what distillation will do
with the E10 ethanol and additives. Ideally, they will be removed
along with the additives. However, it might be better if you first
remove the ethanol by adding a little food coloring to the gasoline,
allowing the E10 to settle, and decant the colored layer of ethanol
from the bottom of the bottle. The remaining non-colored liquid will
be ethanol free, but will still contain most of the additives. My
guess is about 90% efficiency or:
$4.25 / 0.8 / 0.9 = $5.90/gallon

$5.90 is quite a bit cheaper than $16/gallon for Coleman fuel.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Wed, 01 Sep 2021 22:37:28 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>However, it might be better if you first
>remove the ethanol by adding a little food coloring to the gasoline,
>allowing the E10 to settle, and decant the colored layer of ethanol
>from the bottom of the bottle. The remaining non-colored liquid will
>be ethanol free, but will still contain most of the additives.

Oops. I forgot a step. Measure the volume of the original gasoline,
and add 10% of the volume as water. Water is miscible in ethanol and
will therefore cause the water/ethanol mixture to settle to the bottom
of the bottle and turn blue. I'll leave you with the problem of what
to do with the water ethanol waste product. Since little white gas is
lost by this part of the process, my original efficiency and cost
estimates remain unchanged.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Wed, 01 Sep 2021 22:37:28 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Thu, 2 Sep 2021 02:55:09 -0000 (UTC), pH <wNOSPAMp@gmail.org>
>wrote:
>
>>What I would like is to get 5 gallon (19 litre) tins (kerosene can be had
>>that way...in fact, I'd use one of my old kerosene cans to get it, if it
>>were available in bulk again (Coleman fuel, that is.).
>>
>>I've got 20 or 30 lanterns and at least five stoves.
>
>Well, you could distill gasoline into white gas (Coleman fuel). Figure
>on about 80% volumetric efficiency. At today's regular gasoline price
>of $4.25/gallon (including taxes), that's:
> $4.25 / 0.8 = $5.30/gallon
>for the resultant white gas.
>
>"How to make Coleman fuel with a mini 1 ltr table top unit"
><https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXg-ERp5IY8>
>
>"Let's Make White Gas Camp Fuel # 1"
><https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51PY1PxyUyM>
>
>"Distilling Gasoline"
><https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fY6stOum0wM>
>
>However, there's a catch. I have no idea what distillation will do
>with the E10 ethanol and additives. Ideally, they will be removed
>along with the additives. However, it might be better if you first
>remove the ethanol by adding a little food coloring to the gasoline,
>allowing the E10 to settle, and decant the colored layer of ethanol
>from the bottom of the bottle. The remaining non-colored liquid will
>be ethanol free, but will still contain most of the additives. My
>guess is about 90% efficiency or:
> $4.25 / 0.8 / 0.9 = $5.90/gallon
>
>$5.90 is quite a bit cheaper than $16/gallon for Coleman fuel.

Sounds like a great idea..., well excepting that various hydro-carbon
components boil (vaporize) at various temperatures ranging from
-166.5(C) to 214(C), so unless you are controlling the temperature of
your still, rather exactly, you don't really know what you are
getting. Added to that is that I believe that many, most?, gasoline
now contain alcohol and without looking it up I think that alcohol
will vaporize at lower temperatures then most hydro-carbons
And, I might add, having built a gas processing plant, that in the
industry vaporized hydro-carbons are considered extremely dangerious
and cooking gasoline on a stove, in a tin can, certainly would not be
an accepted practice (:-)

--
Cheers,

John B.

I learned my lesson, and after stating some incorrect information about solvents I am not going to make any more grand pronouncements on the subject. Not to make excuses for my mistake, but what's weird is that I use Coleman fuel in my camp stove and lantern, naptha in my parts washer, and kerosene in my space heater, so I feel like I'm pretty familiar with the smell and appearance of each. They certainly do seem to be really different from each other, which just proves the old adage that looks can be deceiving, I guess.

On 9/2/2021 12:37 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Thu, 2 Sep 2021 02:55:09 -0000 (UTC), pH <wNOSPAMp@gmail.org>
> wrote:
>
>> What I would like is to get 5 gallon (19 litre) tins (kerosene can be had
>> that way...in fact, I'd use one of my old kerosene cans to get it, if it
>> were available in bulk again (Coleman fuel, that is.).
>>
>> I've got 20 or 30 lanterns and at least five stoves.
>
> Well, you could distill gasoline into white gas (Coleman fuel). Figure
> on about 80% volumetric efficiency. At today's regular gasoline price
> of $4.25/gallon (including taxes), that's:
> $4.25 / 0.8 = $5.30/gallon
> for the resultant white gas.
>
> "How to make Coleman fuel with a mini 1 ltr table top unit"
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXg-ERp5IY8>
>
> "Let's Make White Gas Camp Fuel # 1"
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51PY1PxyUyM>
>
> "Distilling Gasoline"
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fY6stOum0wM>
>
> However, there's a catch. I have no idea what distillation will do
> with the E10 ethanol and additives. Ideally, they will be removed
> along with the additives. However, it might be better if you first
> remove the ethanol by adding a little food coloring to the gasoline,
> allowing the E10 to settle, and decant the colored layer of ethanol
> from the bottom of the bottle. The remaining non-colored liquid will
> be ethanol free, but will still contain most of the additives. My
> guess is about 90% efficiency or:
> $4.25 / 0.8 / 0.9 = $5.90/gallon
>
> $5.90 is quite a bit cheaper than $16/gallon for Coleman fuel.
>
>
>

!

Distilling gasoline may not be for the faint of heart. I am
probably not the only reader thinking of some spectacular
failures by drug processors with boiling ether and the like.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Wednesday, September 1, 2021 at 8:52:35 PM UTC-7, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wed, 1 Sep 2021 16:27:03 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >I suppose that a jackass like you will sooner listen to John's reference than someone that has actually worked with the stuff - but for you entirely uneducated discussion: " naphtha may also be crude oil or refined products such as kerosene"
> >
> >Can you read that moron? Kerosene IS one of the materials referred to as Naphtha. But I'm the one changing the subject right? Not some dumb ass that that couldn't find his ass with both hands tied behind his back.
> Ever try burning kerosene (or jet fuel) in a Coleman lantern made for
> burning naphtha? I have and it's really difficult to get it to burn
> properly. If you do manage to get kerosene to light, turning it down
> or off for less than a second will extinguish the burner and require
> another pre-heating cycle. In a Coleman 237 kerosene lantern, there's
> a fuel bowl under the generator tube which is filled with isopropyl
> alcohol. The alcohol in the bowl is ignited, which pre-heats the
> generator (burner) tube. When the alcohol is almost consumed, the
> lantern can be lit with kerosene. In other words kerosene and naphtha
> burn quite differently. I couldn't find anything that refereed to
> kerosene as the same as naphtha. Corroborating reference please?
>
> As for "working with the stuff", I used to collect Coleman lanterns. I
> had a kerosene burning model 237, but sold it about 10 years ago. Too
> much trouble to start and smelled awful. However, the big problem was
> that it had only two intensity levels. Super bright or off with
> nothing in between. When I tried to turn it down, it turned off
> instead.
>
> I'm currently down to 5 fuel lanterns, 4 fuel camp stoves, 4 fuel
> hiking stoves, 5 propane lanterns, 1 propane hiking stove, 1 butane
> stove, 1 catalytic heater, and a few boxes of parts. At one time, I
> think I had about 30 assorted lanterns. If you ask me nicely, I'll
> arrange them on my deck and post a photograph. I'm hardly an expert
> on naphtha fuel burners, but I have worked with them.
>
> Coleman Kerosene Models
> <https://classicpressurelamps.com/threads/coleman-kerosene-models.3178/>
>
> Coleman kerosene lantern videos
> <https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=kerosene+coleman+lantern>
>
> [23 minutes wasted]

All that is nice Jeff, but it doesn't change the fact that most petroleum distillates have many names and references. There is a substantial difference between a combustible liquid and a flammable one. Somewhere around here I have a propane lantern from Coleman. It uses almost no fuel because of the heat it throws off heats that netting to white hot easily.

Unfortunately I can't find a damn thing. I can't even find my glasses. Since I had a warranty on them they're being replaced for half price but I will no doubt step on the originals and break them just as soon as I get the new ones. I could probably find the Coleman fuel one or maybe the Kerosene one since they are still inside of the original boxes. I know that the kerosene stove is sitting out in plain sight somewhere so I'll never find it again. And the Colman stove is who the hell knows where since I've been retaining all of my paper records rather than try to remember anything. So all of the upper shelf in the garage is almost solid with cardboard file containers so that keeps me from being able to even find records let alone the Coleman stove which is probably behind them somewhere.

On the ride today, I talked to a guy in the coffee shop that is a cyclist and 14 years ago he was hit by a car on the Davis Double. He is an MD and he just started practicing again in the last year. The helmet he was wearing was a foam helmet and from the car strike from behind, he suffered a brain injury severe enough that they had to drill holes in his head to relieve the pressure.

On Wednesday, September 1, 2021 at 10:47:30 PM UTC-7, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wed, 01 Sep 2021 22:37:28 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
> wrote:
> >However, it might be better if you first
> >remove the ethanol by adding a little food coloring to the gasoline,
> >allowing the E10 to settle, and decant the colored layer of ethanol
> >from the bottom of the bottle. The remaining non-colored liquid will
> >be ethanol free, but will still contain most of the additives.
> Oops. I forgot a step. Measure the volume of the original gasoline,
> and add 10% of the volume as water. Water is miscible in ethanol and
> will therefore cause the water/ethanol mixture to settle to the bottom
> of the bottle and turn blue. I'll leave you with the problem of what
> to do with the water ethanol waste product. Since little white gas is
> lost by this part of the process, my original efficiency and cost
> estimates remain unchanged.

The water/ethanol is still combustible. You simply get excess steam.

On Thursday, September 2, 2021 at 2:05:32 AM UTC-7, William Crowell wrote:
> I learned my lesson, and after stating some incorrect information about solvents I am not going to make any more grand pronouncements on the subject.. Not to make excuses for my mistake, but what's weird is that I use Coleman fuel in my camp stove and lantern, naptha in my parts washer, and kerosene in my space heater, so I feel like I'm pretty familiar with the smell and appearance of each. They certainly do seem to be really different from each other, which just proves the old adage that looks can be deceiving, I guess.
That's not the problem. The problem is that people do not in general know the difference between petroleum distillates and call all of them by the wrong names. So it isn't your or Jeff's problem at all. Just understand what you are in fact buying. White gas IS gasoline without lead additives. I do not like having gasoline around the house. So I mostly use kerosene.