On 2023-06-07, Eowin O <eowinoreilly@nospam.edu> wrote:
> nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> said:
>
>>>>> When I was about to buy my first computer around 1985, the chaps
>>>>> at the student club of the uni told me to buy an IBM PC "clone",
>>>>> and don't even think of an Apple thing: if you do, we can not help
>>>>> you at all with software. We only have IBM PC software.
>>>>
>>>> 1985 ???
>>>>
>>>> that was 38 years ago. a *lot* has changed since then.
>>>
>>> Not really, no. Not in engineering.
>>
>> yes really. technology continues to advance. a lot has changed from
>> just a few years ago, let alone nearly 40 years.
>
> Absolutely. Things were different in 1985. At least with phones they
> were.
>
> For a poignant current Apple example, phones weren't yellow in those
> days. (They were either black, blue, cream or for the "princess
> phone", pink!)
>
> Now Apple has yellow iPhones! That's technological progress for you.

Poor, little Arlen is perpetually tormented by the mere existence of
colors. 🤣

--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

On 07/06/2023 19:25, nospam wrote:
>> What hasn't changed is what Apple does to restrict what a customer can do.
>
> keep thinking that. did you know the earth is flat?

Do you really want to go down the list of all the things Apple does to
restrict what their customers can do compared to Android NOT doing that?

Besides, if you don't know it by now then you know nothing about Apple.

Worse, if you haven't notice what's missing in iPhones then you don't know
anything about Android either (eg expansion slots, aux jacks, sideloading).

On 2023-06-07 11:24, Daniel Washington wrote:
> On 07/06/2023 19:25, nospam wrote:
>>> What hasn't changed is what Apple does to restrict what a customer
>>> can do.
>>
>> keep thinking that. did you know the earth is flat?
>
> Do you really want to go down the list of all the things Apple does to
> restrict what their customers can do compared to Android NOT doing that?
>

Yes please.

But the context was the Macs.

So let's talk about that.

> Besides, if you don't know it by now then you know nothing about Apple.
>
> Worse, if you haven't notice what's missing in iPhones then you don't know
> anything about Android either (eg expansion slots, aux jacks, sideloading).

So every Android phone has an expansion slot and an aux jack?

On 6/7/23 4:03 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:

> When I was about to buy my first computer around 1985, the chaps at the
> student club of the uni told me to buy an IBM PC "clone", and don't even
> think of an Apple thing: if you do, we can not help you at all with
> software. We only have IBM PC software.
>
> Yes, I was considering Apple things back then.

We had several PCs (original and clones plus a TRS-80) but were
considering adding a Lisa to the menagerie. Bought an NEC APC instead,
which was probably just as useless. Pretty screen, though. Took 8"
floppies at $6.00 each.

--
Cheers, Bev
Politicians are stupid like cats are stupid.

On 2023-06-07 17:21, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> Bob Campbell <nunya@none.none> wrote:
>> Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>> No, you can't. If you want it to run Apple OS, you can not.
>>
>> So? Why is this a problem? If you want a Les Paul guitar, your only
>> choice is Gibson.
>>
>> Besides, this is 2023. Not 1983. No one but computer geeks care about
>> OSes these days. No one buys ANY computer to run the OS. Its all about
>> what the computer can do. The OS means nothing to anyone.
>
> Nope. The 'computer' *plus* the OS. "Great computer, but it doesn't
> run my <bleep> software!"
>
>> To the vast majority of the population - who are NOT computer geeks and
>> have no desire to become one - they are all just phones. Most people don?t
>> even know what an OS is.
>
> But they *do* know the difference between 'an iPhone' and 'an Android
> phone' and that's *exactly* what Carlos is talking about. That *he*
> calls them by their OS doesn't change anything.

Exactly.

They are looking at the finger instead of the moon. Ridiculous.

> Same for 'Mac' versus 'Windows' (versus 'Linux').

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 2023-06-07 15:54, nospam wrote:
> In article <qhc6ljxrk.ln2@Telcontar.valinor>, Carlos E.R.
> <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>
>>>>>>> I sms/mms daily where I don't ask recipients what their messaging app
>>>>>>> is.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> At one dollar per message? Because that is what it costs me to send an
>>>>>> mms across the Atlantic.
>>>>>
>>>>> How is that Apple's fault?
>>>>
>>>> LOL! But it is, for refusing to implement RCS.
>>>
>>> rcs isn't the panacea people think. encryption is optional, which means
>>> either you use the same messaging app as other people or your messages
>>> are not encrypted.
>>
>> Not a problem. SMSs are not encrypted at all.
>
> people want encryption, which will be a problem with rcs.

Same as with sms.

>
> if people have to use the same rcs app to use the same encryption,
> they're no better off than existing messaging apps.
>
>>> it's also carrier controlled, which means it's tied
>>> to an active phone number.
>>
>> not a problem. Same as SMS.
>
> it is a problem, because people sometimes change numbers and not
> everyone has a phone number.

not a problem. Same as SMS. rcs targets to be an sms replacement.

>
> existing solutions solve both of those problems.
>
>>> pricing isn't necessarily free.
>>
>> As far as I have used it, yes, it is free.
>
> maybe for you, for now. that doesn't mean it's free for everyone or
> will remain free for eternity.

Please explain in detail for which cases is rcs not free.

>
>> ...
>>
>> It is not perfect, but it is a large improvement.
>
> it's an improvement over sms, but that doesn't mean it's better than
> other options. there are still many issues.
>
> google is pushing rcs because all of their previous messaging apps have
> been a failure. they could have had something compelling.
>
> <https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/08/a-decade-and-a-half-of-instabil
> ity-the-history-of-google-messaging-apps/>

It is a protocol, you can do your own app.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 6/7/2023 6:12 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:

<snip>

> Not really, no. Not in engineering.

I was at one workshop, put on by Atmel (now part of Microchip) and
someone was upset that Atmel dropped the Linux version of their
development system. They never had a Mac version. It was just too much
work to maintain the Linux version for the limited number of users that
insisted on not running Windows. There was never a Mac version. You
would often have attendees with Macbooks but they were running Windows
in a dual-boot configuration (not as a virtual machine which would
usually not work because of issues with I/O ports).

Even now, most of the engineering applications are Windows-only.
Sometimes you'll have a limited-functionality version, such as with
Autocad, for the Mac. Sometimes, as with Solidworks, you won't. Cadence
Allegro has Windows and Linux versions but no Mac version.

Bottom line, if you're doing engineering stuff, whether in college or in
your job, you want to have a Windows machine with a fast CPU and a
high-power graphics card.

--
“If you are not an expert on a subject, then your opinions about it
really do matter less than the opinions of experts. It's not
indoctrination nor elitism. It's just that you don't know as much as
they do about the subject.”—Tin Foil Awards

In article <j677ljx9ap.ln2@Telcontar.valinor>, Carlos E.R.
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

> rcs targets to be an sms replacement.

and for that, it does well.

the problem is that rcs isn't a replacement for messaging apps such as
whatsapp, signal and the rest.

<https://www.androidauthority.com/rcs-google-3090142/>
The RCS protocol, on the other hand, was announced in 2007 and
gets a minor update every year or so. At best (Wikipedia). It¹s been
playing catch-up with messaging innovations from its IP competitors
for years and will likely continue to do so. It also requires plenty
of partners ‹ carriers and device makers ‹ to get along and
implement it.

>
> Please explain in detail for which cases is rcs not free.

carriers control it and they set the prices. it's *probably* going to
be free, but there is no guarantee of that.

> It is a protocol, you can do your own app.

not really.

from the above link,

In a word, RCS is like SMS, but better. Except that it isn¹t. Not
every operator has enabled it yet. Not all phones support it. Not
every implementation is the same ‹ especially in terms of encryption
since that bit is optional. And even if you download Google Messages
and use the now-supposedly worldwide ŒChat features¹ there, you¹re
still at the mercy of Google¹s servers which can go down or become
buggy any time. Which they have done rather frequently.

In article <u5qtqj$186k3$1@dont-email.me>, sms
<scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:

> Bottom line, if you're doing engineering stuff, whether in college or in
> your job, you want to have a Windows machine with a fast CPU and a
> high-power graphics card.

'engineering stuff' can be a lot of things.

regardless, your claim is very much false.

On 2023-06-07 14:45, sms wrote:
> On 6/7/2023 6:12 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> Not really, no. Not in engineering.
>
> I was at one workshop, put on by Atmel (now part of Microchip) and
> someone was upset that Atmel dropped the Linux version of their
> development system. They never had a Mac version. It was just too much
> work to maintain the Linux version for the limited number of users that
> insisted on not running Windows. There was never a Mac version. You
> would often have attendees with Macbooks but they were running Windows
> in a dual-boot configuration (not as a virtual machine which would
> usually not work because of issues with I/O ports).

Interesting...

<https://www.microchip.com/en-us/search?searchQuery=macos&category=ALL&fq=start%3D0%26rows%3D10>

Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:
> Nope. The 'computer' *plus* the OS. "Great computer, but it doesn't
> run my <bleep> software!"

Most people have no clue what an OS is, nor do they care. The computer is
all they know.

Similar to a car is just a car. Not a car + engine + transmission + tires.
Its a car.
>
>> To the vast majority of the population - who are NOT computer geeks and
>> have no desire to become one - they are all just phones. Most people don?t
>> even know what an OS is.
>
> But they *do* know the difference between 'an iPhone' and 'an Android
> phone' and that's *exactly* what Carlos is talking about. That *he*
> calls them by their OS doesn't change anything.

But they don’t understand what that actually means, beyond “Apple” and “Not
Apple”. Again, no one but a geek knows what an OS is and does.

Not only that, but there is essentially no operational difference between
the two. Most people use their phones same way. You talk, text, play
games, take pictures, listen to music, watch TV/movies/whatever, shop, get
news/weather/airline/train schedules. Etc.

Just like there is no operational difference between a Toyota and a Honda.
You drive both exactly the same way, using the same gas, oil and tires.
Most people are not gear heads either.

The relatively minor differences between “Apple” and “Not Apple” are the
source of all of these absurd, endless debates here. You might as well
argue about steaks/seafood or baseball/football. Which is better?

Who cares? There is no correct answer to either question. If you like
seafood, then that’s it. End of discussion.

If you like Android, then that’s it. End of discussion.

Except the discussions here never end. On and on and on and on about the
most trivial matters. Over and over and over and over and over and over
and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.

Which is why I don’t waste much time here anymore. I am generally way to
busy to be involved here every day.

On 7/6/2023, nospam wrote:

>> Bottom line, if you're doing engineering stuff, whether in college or in
>> your job, you want to have a Windows machine with a fast CPU and a
>> high-power graphics card.
>
> 'engineering stuff' can be a lot of things.

To be fair to both sides of the argument, and using only your MIT example
(which you wrongly claimed "recommended" macs), MIT warned prospective
engineering students that neither Solidworks solid modeling computer-aided
design (CAD) software nor ESRI ArcGIS mapping and spatial analysis tools
were supported on Apple systems. Only Windows.

Nonetheless, MIT said that about three quarters of the student body is on
macs (even as they specifically mentioned that iPads were not a good idea).

Bob Campbell wrote:

> Most people have no clue what an OS is, nor do they care. The computer is
> all they know.
>
> Similar to a car is just a car. Not a car + engine + transmission + tires.
> Its a car.

I just had this discussion with a non technical friend who uses the
sodastream where I tried to explain to him that for half the price he could
carbonate more water at higher pressures faster & cheaper with carbonating
caps and a little technical knowledge on the solubility of CO2 in water.

To her, soda is soda and a sodastream allows her to turn her brain off and
still end up with (slightly carbonated) flavored soda water in the kitchen.

>>
>>> To the vast majority of the population - who are NOT computer geeks and
>>> have no desire to become one - they are all just phones. Most people don?t
>>> even know what an OS is.
>>
>> But they *do* know the difference between 'an iPhone' and 'an Android
>> phone' and that's *exactly* what Carlos is talking about. That *he*
>> calls them by their OS doesn't change anything.
>
> But they don't understand what that actually means, beyond "Apple" and "Not
> Apple". Again, no one but a geek knows what an OS is and does.

The analogy is the same where the sodastream equates to Apple while a
carbonation cap equates to Android. One is twice as expensive and half as
functional while the other is twice as functional but requires knowledge.

> Not only that, but there is essentially no operational difference between
> the two. Most people use their phones same way. You talk, text, play
> games, take pictures, listen to music, watch TV/movies/whatever, shop, get
> news/weather/airline/train schedules. Etc.

If all you want is semi-flat soda water, then an Apple device works well.
But if you want to do whatever you want to do, then Android works better.

> Just like there is no operational difference between a Toyota and a Honda.
> You drive both exactly the same way, using the same gas, oil and tires.
> Most people are not gear heads either.

If all you ever do is drive to the grocery store and back, both have the
same functionality because both handle the established methods well.

It's when want to go off road that Android pulls out way ahead of iOS.
> The relatively minor differences between "Apple" and "Not Apple" are the
> source of all of these absurd, endless debates here. You might as well
> argue about steaks/seafood or baseball/football. Which is better?

The main difference between the two platforms is whether or not you want to
be restricted and locked out versus whether you want to be free of that.

> Who cares? There is no correct answer to either question. If you like
> seafood, then that's it. End of discussion.

There are people on this newsgroup who care very much. The average person
who never goes off road or who doesn't want well carbonated water, doesn't.

>
> If you like Android, then that's it. End of discussion.

It's not really if you "like" Android so much as if you don't like flat
carbonated water that costs twice as much as better carbonated water does.

> Except the discussions here never end. On and on and on and on about the
> most trivial matters. Over and over and over and over and over and over
> and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.

This observation is true - but it only holds true for the Apple newsgroup.

It's like a person with a brand new SUV who saw an advertisement showing it
on top of a mountain but they bought the 2WD Apple version - so it can't.
--
Hey, it's always a pleasure to horrify someone for fifty bucks.

On Wed, 07 Jun 2023 17:49:45 -0400, nospam wrote:

> In a word, RCS is like SMS, but better. Except that it isn't. Not
> every operator has enabled it yet. Not all phones support it. Not
> every implementation is the same ‹ especially in terms of encryption
> since that bit is optional. And even if you download Google Messages
> and use the now-supposedly worldwide ŒChat features there, you're
> still at the mercy of Google's servers which can go down or become
> buggy any time. Which they have done rather frequently.

Each point & counterpoint above applies broadly also to iOS messages.
Worse you're forever stuck with messages as you can't change the default.

In a word, RCS is like iOS messages, but better. Except that it isn't.
Not every phone manufacturer has enabled it so not all phones support it.
Not every implementation is the same ‹on all phones in terms of encryption
since that bit is optional. And even if you download iOS Messages and use
it with Android via an account on a used purpose bought sacrificial mac,
you're still at the mercy of Apple's servers which can go down or
which can become insecure any time. Which they have done rather frequently.

On 6/8/2023 12:59 AM, Auric__ wrote:

<snip>

> I just had this discussion with a non technical friend who uses the
> sodastream where I tried to explain to him that for half the price he could
> carbonate more water at higher pressures faster & cheaper with carbonating
> caps and a little technical knowledge on the solubility of CO2 in water.
>
> To her, soda is soda and a sodastream allows her to turn her brain off and
> still end up with (slightly carbonated) flavored soda water in the kitchen.

I wrote up the instructions for his a while back, it's in a Google Doc:
"Two Cents Plain--How to Carbonate Water and Not Go Broke" at
<https://docs.google.com/document/d/12k1An0U55KP4kwc601yF3hbjACyM4WmHqN4SFOwNNYk/>.

I think that I'm at five years with my first $22, 20 pound, CO2 fill.
Probably it'll be $30 when I need to get the tank refilled. I spent
about $225 on the setup because I bought a new tank and a high end
regulator. But I would have spent a lot more on those tiny Soda Stream
cartridges.

--
“If you are not an expert on a subject, then your opinions about it
really do matter less than the opinions of experts. It's not
indoctrination nor elitism. It's just that you don't know as much as
they do about the subject.”—Tin Foil Awards

On 6/8/2023 1:12 AM, Mickey D wrote:

<snip>

> In a word, RCS is like iOS messages, but better. Except that it isn't.
> Not every phone manufacturer has enabled it so not all phones support it.
> Not every implementation is the same ‹on all phones in terms of encryption
> since that bit is optional. And even if you download iOS Messages and use
> it with Android via an account on a used purpose bought sacrificial mac,
> you're still at the mercy of Apple's servers which can go down or
> which can become insecure any time. Which they have done rather frequently.

All true. But being able to use iMessage from Android, and from Windows,
is an adequate workaround to dealing with those users that are concerned
about Blue Bubbles. The used Mac Mini was $100. It's in my wiring
closet, out of sight, out of mind. It reboots after any power outage
without the need for any password.

--
“If you are not an expert on a subject, then your opinions about it
really do matter less than the opinions of experts. It's not
indoctrination nor elitism. It's just that you don't know as much as
they do about the subject.”—Tin Foil Awards

On 6/7/2023 12:17 PM, The Real Bev wrote:
> On 6/7/23 4:03 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>
>> When I was about to buy my first computer around 1985, the chaps at the
>> student club of the uni told me to buy an IBM PC "clone", and don't even
>> think of an Apple thing: if you do, we can not help you at all with
>> software. We only have IBM PC software.
>>
>> Yes, I was considering Apple things back then.
>
> We had several PCs (original and clones plus a TRS-80) but were
> considering adding a Lisa to the menagerie.  Bought an NEC APC instead,
> which was probably just as useless.  Pretty screen, though.  Took 8"
> floppies at $6.00 each.

I bought TDK 8" floppies for about $20 for a box of 10.

Here's my Lobo Max 80 <http://www.trs-80.org/lobo-max-80/> which I
donated to the Computer History Association of California:
<http://cpmarchives.classiccmp.org/trs80/mirrors/trs-80.com/2011/www.trs-80.com/images/computer-max80.gif>.
It could run CP/M or LDOS which let it run most TRS-80 Model III
applications.

I had an enormous old Diablo Hytpe I daisy-wheel printer hooked to it.

--
“If you are not an expert on a subject, then your opinions about it
really do matter less than the opinions of experts. It's not
indoctrination nor elitism. It's just that you don't know as much as
they do about the subject.”—Tin Foil Awards

On 6/8/23 8:24 AM, sms wrote:
> On 6/7/2023 12:17 PM, The Real Bev wrote:
>> On 6/7/23 4:03 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>
>>> When I was about to buy my first computer around 1985, the chaps at the
>>> student club of the uni told me to buy an IBM PC "clone", and don't even
>>> think of an Apple thing: if you do, we can not help you at all with
>>> software. We only have IBM PC software.
>>>
>>> Yes, I was considering Apple things back then.
>>
>> We had several PCs (original and clones plus a TRS-80) but were
>> considering adding a Lisa to the menagerie.  Bought an NEC APC instead,
>> which was probably just as useless.  Pretty screen, though.  Took 8"
>> floppies at $6.00 each.

We had TWO 5MB hard drives, though!

> I bought TDK 8" floppies for about $20 for a box of 10.
>
> Here's my Lobo Max 80 <http://www.trs-80.org/lobo-max-80/> which I
> donated to the Computer History Association of California:
> <http://cpmarchives.classiccmp.org/trs80/mirrors/trs-80.com/2011/www.trs-80.com/images/computer-max80.gif>.
> It could run CP/M or LDOS which let it run most TRS-80 Model III
> applications.
>
> I had an enormous old Diablo Hytpe I daisy-wheel printer hooked to it.

Oooh, RICH bastard! We had a Centronics 101 until the smoke leaked out.
Distinctive sound. KLUNK zzzip KLUNK zzzip... I remember hearing it
in the background of a lot of TV shows.

--
Cheers, Bev
"I don't care who your father is! Drop that cross
one more time and you're out of the parade!"

On 6/8/2023 8:37 AM, The Real Bev wrote:
> On 6/8/23 8:24 AM, sms wrote:
>> On 6/7/2023 12:17 PM, The Real Bev wrote:
>>> On 6/7/23 4:03 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>
>>>> When I was about to buy my first computer around 1985, the chaps at the
>>>> student club of the uni told me to buy an IBM PC "clone", and don't
>>>> even
>>>> think of an Apple thing: if you do, we can not help you at all with
>>>> software. We only have IBM PC software.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, I was considering Apple things back then.
>>>
>>> We had several PCs (original and clones plus a TRS-80) but were
>>> considering adding a Lisa to the menagerie.  Bought an NEC APC
>>> instead, which was probably just as useless.  Pretty screen, though.
>>> Took 8" floppies at $6.00 each.
>
> We had TWO 5MB hard drives, though!

About enough for one digital photo these days.

I could have hooked up a SASI hard drive to my CP/M machine but it was
too expensive, even though I got Shugart stuff at a discount because I
worked for Xerox. My bare 8" floppy drives were a bargain at $302 each.

>
>> I bought TDK 8" floppies for about $20 for a box of 10.
>>
>> Here's my Lobo Max 80 <http://www.trs-80.org/lobo-max-80/> which I
>> donated to the Computer History Association of California:
>> <http://cpmarchives.classiccmp.org/trs80/mirrors/trs-80.com/2011/www.trs-80.com/images/computer-max80.gif>.
>> It could run CP/M or LDOS which let it run most TRS-80 Model III
>> applications.
>>
>> I had an enormous old Diablo Hytpe I daisy-wheel printer hooked to it.
>
> Oooh, RICH bastard!  We had a Centronics 101 until the smoke leaked out.
>  Distinctive sound.  KLUNK zzzip KLUNK zzzip... I remember hearing it
> in the background of a lot of TV shows.

I worked for Diablo and someone sold be their really ancient printer,
but it worked. It was the size of a desk with the logic boards built
into the stand.

--
“If you are not an expert on a subject, then your opinions about it
really do matter less than the opinions of experts. It's not
indoctrination nor elitism. It's just that you don't know as much as
they do about the subject.”—Tin Foil Awards

In article <u5ssuf$1i5b3$1@dont-email.me>, sms
<scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:

> > We had TWO 5MB hard drives, though!
>
> About enough for one digital photo these days.

that depends on the camera and its settings. a 24mp raw will not fit,
and 24mp isn't that big anymore.

On 6/7/2023 9:00 AM, Ken Blake wrote:

<snip>

> Back in 1985, Apple computer were pretty much just toys. If you wanted
> to do much more than play games, you needed an IBM or a clone.

Apple computers were widely used by school districts. I worked for a
company that had made network cards for the original Apple II machines,
as well as for the Commodore Pet and Radio Shack TRS-80. Even in the
late 1980's there was a demand for more network cards for the Apple II
because so many were in use.

There was also the CP/M card for the Apple II
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z-80_SoftCard> which let it run CP/M
applications which greatly increased the usefulness, just as the ability
to run Windows on x86 Macs greatly increased the usefulness of the Mac.

--
“If you are not an expert on a subject, then your opinions about it
really do matter less than the opinions of experts. It's not
indoctrination nor elitism. It's just that you don't know as much as
they do about the subject.”—Tin Foil Awards

In article <u5sta7$1i5b3$2@dont-email.me>, sms
<scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:

> Even in the
> late 1980's there was a demand for more network cards for the Apple II
> because so many were in use.

not really. networking was built in starting in the mid-80s, same as
with macs. very, very few sites needed ethernet.

> There was also the CP/M card for the Apple II
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z-80_SoftCard> which let it run CP/M
> applications which greatly increased the usefulness,

definitely not. there was more apple ii software than cp/m.

> just as the ability
> to run Windows on x86 Macs greatly increased the usefulness of the Mac.

not really. windows helped a little, mostly for vertical market apps.
it's nowhere near as much as some claim.

On 2023-06-08 08:49, sms wrote:
> On 6/7/2023 9:00 AM, Ken Blake wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> Back in 1985, Apple computer were pretty much just toys. If you wanted
>> to do much more than play games, you needed an IBM or a clone.
>
> Apple computers were widely used by school districts. I worked for a
> company that had made network cards for the original Apple II machines,
> as well as for the Commodore Pet and Radio Shack TRS-80. Even in the
> late 1980's there was a demand for more network cards for the Apple II
> because so many were in use.
>
> There was also the CP/M card for the Apple II
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z-80_SoftCard> which let it run CP/M
> applications which greatly increased the usefulness, just as the ability
> to run Windows on x86 Macs greatly increased the usefulness of the Mac.
>

The ability to run Windows on a Mac mostly removed an excuse to prevent
people from choosing Macs.

sms wrote:

> I wrote up the instructions for his a while back, it's in a Google Doc:
> "Two Cents Plain--How to Carbonate Water and Not Go Broke" at
> <https://docs.google.com/document/d/12k1An0U55KP4kwc601yF3hbjACyM4WmHqN4SFOwNNYk/>.

Nice. You know about a lot more technical stuff than just phones alone.
https://tinyurl.com/carbonation88

That sodastream versus carbon dioxide tank comparison sheet result is very
much like your Apple to Android comparison sheet result where the highly
marketed but expensive and less customizable sodastream equates to Apple
while the less expensive but certainly more technically intensive tank
carbonation gives you the kinds of pressure & size choices of Android.

In that way, your two helpful well researched documents are similar.

I noticed you like details (for example, you list connector sizes), which
is good because a lot of these parts are standard sizes but some are not.

It's nice that you share your knowledge as I tried the sodastream Jet first
and then realized I wanted more control over the bubbles so I went to the
method that you also use with the Ferroday stainless steel carbonation cap.
https://www.homebrewfinds.com/ferroday-stainless-carbonation-cap

The ball lock disconnect is usually less critical than the carbonation cap.

In general you want the "gas and liquid" type stainless cap, which you can
only tell if you have one in your hands if it has two notches, it's both.

You have a couple of errors in your document though that you may wish to
fix. For example, the sodastream valve isn't one way (so there's no need to
replace it with an after-market valve).

Your document doesn't discuss refilling so I added some details below that
you are welcome to add (or ask me questions about for clarification).

I didn't cover it but you can also sacrifice the valve from a sodastream
canister and put it on an unregulated high pressure hose to DIRECTLY feed
the larger tank of carbon dioxide gas directly into the sodastream unit.

Or, you can buy a hose for that purpose - but bear in mind there are three
different valves for the sodastream (I only use the TR21-4 "blue" size).

> I think that I'm at five years with my first $22, 20 pound, CO2 fill.

You're doing it right as the sodastream is what the less informed use
because it's marketed as being safe & easy to use - just like iPhones are.

It takes more knowledge to use the carbonation cap method but you have more
choice in the result in terms of volume and pressure & it costs less too.
> Probably it'll be $30 when I need to get the tank refilled.

You have the right size carbon dioxide tank for liquid refills because the
20 pound size is above the labor-intensive break-even point at Carbonics.

Linde (formerly Praxair) will exchange your tank for a new one which you
might want to do every dozen years to avoid the need to hydro recertify.

Or you can fill up the tanks yourself at home with Airgas/Penguin solid CO2
but dry ice works best for the smaller tanks because dry ice is about
$2.50/pound so the break-even point in filling up at home versus at an
outfit like Carbonics is around at the size of the ten pound CO2 tanks.

> I spent about $225 on the setup because I bought a new tank and a high end
> regulator.

Yeah. I wasted a lot of time and money learning from the beer carbonators.
https://www.glaciertanks.com/carbonation.html

They use a much lower pressure than I want to use for my soda water.

For example they use carbonation stones, but at a couple psi of pressure.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0064OKB00

The sodastream is only at 20 psi (gauge pressure - above atmospheric)
but I like to keep water at the kind of high psi that these pros keep it.
https://ny.eater.com/2022/8/30/23329252/brooklyn-seltzer-boys-last-remaining-seltzer-factory

I'd love to find out where to buy a handle for the PET plastic 28 mm PCO
1881 ('Coke bottle') threads that has the ability to do what they do here
with glass (a standard coke bottle should never go above about 90 psi).
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/14/nyregion/dry-stores-non-alcoholic-drinks-nyc.html

Plus I like doing 2 liters at a time which is easy because all Ferroday
carbonation posts are those common 28 mm PCO 1881 ('Coke bottle') threads.

> But I would have spent a lot more on those tiny Soda Stream cartridges.

I've tried two methods of refilling the 14.5 ounce (410 grams) sodastream
canisters at home using both the dry (solid) and the web (liquid) CO2.

For the dry method, you don't need the donor tank that you already have.

All you do is bring a lunch cooler to a grocery store to pick up about one
pound more of dry ice than you think you'll need (at about $2.50/pound).

Some stores let you pick through their Penguin/Airgas coolers to find a
block which has sublimated to just about the weight that you may need.

You put the empty sodastream canisters in the freezer before you leave for
the store. When you return, you first remove the TR21-4 valve with a
15/16ths inch open-end wrench after depressing the button to bleed it out.

I used to first loosen the pressure overflow valve with a 10 mm open-end
wrench until I realized there's a hole drilled in the M18x1.5 threads
which will bleed out all the pressure before the TR21-4 valve comes out.

Be careful about not losing the 1.5 inch diameter O-Ring on the TR21-4.

Back home you crush the dry ice and feed it into the canister with a funnel
making sure to check the weight on a kitchen scale to never exceed maximum.

You stop adding dry ice when it's 410 grams over the tare weight and then
you use the 15/16ths inch open-end wrench to replace the TR21-4 valve.

If you don't put it outside for a few hours, you need to at least put it on
something insulated, like a bath towel inside, as it frosts up mighty fast.

The tare weight of the canister and the valve is stamped on the neck where
mine are all about 0.70 KG (about 1 lb and 8.6 ounces) which includes the
weight of the valve (which itself is engraved at around 135 grams alone).

The other option is to fill the sodastream with liquid from your 20 pound
feeder tank using a convenient high pressure hose & gage like I do too.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08PDXZYLH/

Some people do it the really simple way but I prefer the hose above.
https://www.amazon.com/Farwind-Cartridges-Connector-Replacement-Accessories/dp/B0B4KD2NHB

BTW, your document is slightly wrong in saying that the sodastream TR21-4
is a "one-way" valve, in that it's not. Just like HP was clever in adding
expiry dates to ink cartridges to make it harder to refill them, the old
(green top) sodastreams used to have no restrictions & then the newer (blue
& pink top) sodastream canisters have a flow restrictor which they position
as a "safety device" but it's only there to make refilling a bit harder.

Your CO2 tank is likely not a siphon tank so you would connect the CGA320
to TR21-4 high-pressure hose to your 20 pound tank with a 15/16ths open-end
wrench with both hose ball valves in the closed position and then invert it
so that carbon dioxide liquid is what will flow out of the hose.

You'd first open the upended carbon dioxide tank handwheel.
Then you'd bleed out the air inside the high-pressure hose.
Then you'd slooooooowly open the ball valve to the sodastream canister.

You'll hear a hiss but it takes practice to get the liquid carbon dioxide
flowing just enough not to be boring but not enough to trigger the shutoff.

Again you weigh the results making sure you're never more than 410 grams
over the tare weight and you leave it outside as it will frost up mightily.

Both methods take about five minutes where what I generally do is fill
small tanks less than ten pounds with the dry ice but over ten pounds I
fill at a local Carbonics outfit. Every dozen years I'll exchange for a new
one so that I don't have to bother with the DOT required hydro testing.

If I'm already filling the 10 or 5 pound tanks with dry ice, then I'll put
14.5 ounces of dry ice in the sodastreams but generally I fill the
sodastreams with liquid using that high pressure hose I showed you.

I noticed you mentioned which tanks to buy but you didn't seem to warn
peopel that there are two kinds - one with a siphon tube & one without.

It may not matter for a USA-only audience, but the CGA-320 valve isn't
universal around the world - as they use a different valve across the pond.

I'm not sure if the sodastream valves are different around the world.
Probably not but it's maybe worth checking if you have a world audience.

As you're likely aware, the sodastream canisters are about $30 each and you
don't own them - you license them - where the exchanges are about $15 each.

The only laws are for transportation where you can refill anything you want
and you can use anything you want but you can't TRANSPORT a refilled
container on public roads if the certification date has expired.

All these tanks have a 12 year expiry date with a 5-year retest required
thereafter, which is the point that I would just exchange them for new.

On Thu, 8 Jun 2023 08:16:54 -0700, sms wrote:

>> In a word, RCS is like iOS messages, but better. Except that it isn't.
>> Not every phone manufacturer has enabled it so not all phones support it.
>> Not every implementation is the same ‹on all phones in terms of encryption
>> since that bit is optional. And even if you download iOS Messages and use
>> it with Android via an account on a used purpose bought sacrificial mac,
>> you're still at the mercy of Apple's servers which can go down or
>> which can become insecure any time. Which they have done rather frequently.
>
> All true. But being able to use iMessage from Android, and from Windows,
> is an adequate workaround to dealing with those users that are concerned
> about Blue Bubbles.

You appear to understand the tradeoffs better than 'nospam' did given both
methods have drawbacks (for example, the required login is a weak point of
the Apple method just as Google's servers are a weak point of the RCS way).

> The used Mac Mini was $100. It's in my wiring
> closet, out of sight, out of mind. It reboots after any power outage
> without the need for any password.

It sounds like you have the setup well organized for the best of both
worlds, which means you now have the choices to do things how you want it.