I don't if it is just me but I do my bike work in the basement. There I have my guitar repair shop. The problem is with bikes I find I am totally unorganized. I tend to go down and work on something then never get it back to what the shop is suppose to look like. I have wheelsets, tires. chains. tools, and the rest all over the place. It is a crappy mess for sure and easy to ignore as long as you can get the present bike ready for the road. Then you ride and return to damn tired to clean up.

So today I tried to get some items in line. I put all the wheels on hooks and either got the patched tubes away or threw out the ones that are beyond help. Then I put all the allen wrenches in order so that I would not be fumbling around looking for the one I need.

Finally I have the truing stand bolted down but put the spoke wrenches in order and the various rulers I use to make it all work.

Moral is my bike shop is a mess but I got to work with what I have right.
Deacon mark

On 9/28/2021 7:37 PM, Mark cleary wrote:
> I don't if it is just me but I do my bike work in the basement. There I have my guitar repair shop. The problem is with bikes I find I am totally unorganized. I tend to go down and work on something then never get it back to what the shop is suppose to look like. I have wheelsets, tires. chains. tools, and the rest all over the place. It is a crappy mess for sure and easy to ignore as long as you can get the present bike ready for the road. Then you ride and return to damn tired to clean up.
>
> So today I tried to get some items in line. I put all the wheels on hooks and either got the patched tubes away or threw out the ones that are beyond help. Then I put all the allen wrenches in order so that I would not be fumbling around looking for the one I need.
>
> Finally I have the truing stand bolted down but put the spoke wrenches in order and the various rulers I use to make it all work.
>
> Moral is my bike shop is a mess but I got to work with what I have right.
> Deacon mark

I understand the problem of leaving tools and parts all over the place.
I spent the last few days working on my neighbor's riding lawn mower.
(He's an English major. Wrenches are baffling to him.) Right now my
workbench has a pile of files, drills, fasteners etc. I really do need
to clean it up.

But normally my workshop is at least moderately neat. I keep almost all
bike tools in one drawer, roughly sorted by shape (e.g. cone wrenches
and other flat wrenches nested together, small tools in one tin
container, etc.) Other drawers have things like files and chisels,
electrical test equipment and soldering supplies, taps and dies,
sandpaper, etc. I have a bunch of identical cardboard boxes on shelves,
labeled as "Pedals etc." and "Derailleurs" and "Brakes" and so on. I
have jars and/or small drawers of fasteners, some sorted and labeled by
size (5mm, 6mm, 1/4" short, 1/4" medium, 1/4" nuts etc.)

The shop is tiny, and used for machining (two lathes), other metal work,
woodworking (band saw, radial arm saw) and any general repairs that come
up. Common tools each have their proper place on a large peg board.
Power tools like drills, saws etc. are either in drawers or on shelves.

I often think it could be better organized, but OTOH I've had guys (for
example, touring cyclists staying with us) walk in and express envy at
my tiny shop.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Tuesday, September 28, 2021 at 5:43:08 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 9/28/2021 7:37 PM, Mark cleary wrote:
> > I don't if it is just me but I do my bike work in the basement. There I have my guitar repair shop. The problem is with bikes I find I am totally unorganized. I tend to go down and work on something then never get it back to what the shop is suppose to look like. I have wheelsets, tires. chains. tools, and the rest all over the place. It is a crappy mess for sure and easy to ignore as long as you can get the present bike ready for the road. Then you ride and return to damn tired to clean up.
> >
> > So today I tried to get some items in line. I put all the wheels on hooks and either got the patched tubes away or threw out the ones that are beyond help. Then I put all the allen wrenches in order so that I would not be fumbling around looking for the one I need.
> >
> > Finally I have the truing stand bolted down but put the spoke wrenches in order and the various rulers I use to make it all work.
> >
> > Moral is my bike shop is a mess but I got to work with what I have right.
> > Deacon mark
> I understand the problem of leaving tools and parts all over the place.
> I spent the last few days working on my neighbor's riding lawn mower.
> (He's an English major. Wrenches are baffling to him.) Right now my
> workbench has a pile of files, drills, fasteners etc. I really do need
> to clean it up.
>
> But normally my workshop is at least moderately neat. I keep almost all
> bike tools in one drawer, roughly sorted by shape (e.g. cone wrenches
> and other flat wrenches nested together, small tools in one tin
> container, etc.) Other drawers have things like files and chisels,
> electrical test equipment and soldering supplies, taps and dies,
> sandpaper, etc. I have a bunch of identical cardboard boxes on shelves,
> labeled as "Pedals etc." and "Derailleurs" and "Brakes" and so on. I
> have jars and/or small drawers of fasteners, some sorted and labeled by
> size (5mm, 6mm, 1/4" short, 1/4" medium, 1/4" nuts etc.)
>
> The shop is tiny, and used for machining (two lathes), other metal work,
> woodworking (band saw, radial arm saw) and any general repairs that come
> up. Common tools each have their proper place on a large peg board.
> Power tools like drills, saws etc. are either in drawers or on shelves.
>
> I often think it could be better organized, but OTOH I've had guys (for
> example, touring cyclists staying with us) walk in and express envy at
> my tiny shop.

I was an English major and built bicycle frames -- or at least did grunt work, and I built wheels as a cottage industry during college. I have done my own work on bikes for 50 years -- plumbing and electrical, too, and I fix my own lawn equipment. There is a low correlation between undergraduate degree and mechanical skill. The guy who built all of my steel frames had an undergraduate degree in entomology -- not terribly helpful unless you're painting with shellac. Anyway, having a degree in English shouldn't be a handicap for your neighbor. In fact, your neighbor developed a superior skill -- getting you to do the work for him. My wife has developed the same skill. Its the sign of high intelligence.

My work areas are a mess, but between me and my neighbor, we have every tool needed for a pro shop, minus some of the old Campy frame tools -- e.g. the giant BB taps, facers, etc. I don't prep enough frames to make it worth my while. My problem is getting spread out between my basement bicycle shop and the garage, and if I drop some tiny screw on the garage floor, it will be eaten by the garage gods.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 9/28/2021 9:16 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> There is a low correlation between undergraduate degree and mechanical skill.

There are certainly outliers in both directions, but I'd bet a ton of
money that the average English major is much worse at mechanical work
than the average Mechanical Engineer.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 9/28/2021 11:20 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 9/28/2021 9:16 PM, jbeattie wrote:
>> There is a low correlation between undergraduate degree
>> and mechanical skill.
>
> There are certainly outliers in both directions, but I'd bet
> a ton of money that the average English major is much worse
> at mechanical work than the average Mechanical Engineer.
>

You're back to that normal curve again. Exceptions to both.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Wednesday, September 29, 2021 at 6:02:46 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 9/28/2021 11:20 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 9/28/2021 9:16 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> >> There is a low correlation between undergraduate degree
> >> and mechanical skill.
> >
> > There are certainly outliers in both directions, but I'd bet
> > a ton of money that the average English major is much worse
> > at mechanical work than the average Mechanical Engineer.
> >
> You're back to that normal curve again. Exceptions to both.

I'd take Frank's bet -- at least when it comes to bicycles. Go to the local shop and see how many of the mechanics are MEs. Its more likely they have degrees in political science -- or no degrees. Maybe I'll stop at the PSU bike hub on the way to work and check on majors. https://www.pdx.edu/bikehub/ "Say, what's your major . . . what sign are you?" They'd probably call the cops.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Tuesday, September 28, 2021 at 6:16:02 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 28, 2021 at 5:43:08 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 9/28/2021 7:37 PM, Mark cleary wrote:
> > > I don't if it is just me but I do my bike work in the basement. There I have my guitar repair shop. The problem is with bikes I find I am totally unorganized. I tend to go down and work on something then never get it back to what the shop is suppose to look like. I have wheelsets, tires. chains. tools, and the rest all over the place. It is a crappy mess for sure and easy to ignore as long as you can get the present bike ready for the road. Then you ride and return to damn tired to clean up.
> > >
> > > So today I tried to get some items in line. I put all the wheels on hooks and either got the patched tubes away or threw out the ones that are beyond help. Then I put all the allen wrenches in order so that I would not be fumbling around looking for the one I need.
> > >
> > > Finally I have the truing stand bolted down but put the spoke wrenches in order and the various rulers I use to make it all work.
> > >
> > > Moral is my bike shop is a mess but I got to work with what I have right.
> > > Deacon mark
> > I understand the problem of leaving tools and parts all over the place.
> > I spent the last few days working on my neighbor's riding lawn mower.
> > (He's an English major. Wrenches are baffling to him.) Right now my
> > workbench has a pile of files, drills, fasteners etc. I really do need
> > to clean it up.
> >
> > But normally my workshop is at least moderately neat. I keep almost all
> > bike tools in one drawer, roughly sorted by shape (e.g. cone wrenches
> > and other flat wrenches nested together, small tools in one tin
> > container, etc.) Other drawers have things like files and chisels,
> > electrical test equipment and soldering supplies, taps and dies,
> > sandpaper, etc. I have a bunch of identical cardboard boxes on shelves,
> > labeled as "Pedals etc." and "Derailleurs" and "Brakes" and so on. I
> > have jars and/or small drawers of fasteners, some sorted and labeled by
> > size (5mm, 6mm, 1/4" short, 1/4" medium, 1/4" nuts etc.)
> >
> > The shop is tiny, and used for machining (two lathes), other metal work,
> > woodworking (band saw, radial arm saw) and any general repairs that come
> > up. Common tools each have their proper place on a large peg board.
> > Power tools like drills, saws etc. are either in drawers or on shelves.
> >
> > I often think it could be better organized, but OTOH I've had guys (for
> > example, touring cyclists staying with us) walk in and express envy at
> > my tiny shop.
> I was an English major and built bicycle frames -- or at least did grunt work, and I built wheels as a cottage industry during college. I have done my own work on bikes for 50 years -- plumbing and electrical, too, and I fix my own lawn equipment. There is a low correlation between undergraduate degree and mechanical skill. The guy who built all of my steel frames had an undergraduate degree in entomology -- not terribly helpful unless you're painting with shellac. Anyway, having a degree in English shouldn't be a handicap for your neighbor. In fact, your neighbor developed a superior skill -- getting you to do the work for him. My wife has developed the same skill.. Its the sign of high intelligence.
>
> My work areas are a mess, but between me and my neighbor, we have every tool needed for a pro shop, minus some of the old Campy frame tools -- e.g. the giant BB taps, facers, etc. I don't prep enough frames to make it worth my while. My problem is getting spread out between my basement bicycle shop and the garage, and if I drop some tiny screw on the garage floor, it will be eaten by the garage gods.

Jay, you probably had a father when fathers were an important part of a kid's life. That ended shortly after people like Frank became teachers.

On 9/29/2021 10:23 AM, jbeattie wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 29, 2021 at 6:02:46 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 9/28/2021 11:20 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 9/28/2021 9:16 PM, jbeattie wrote:
>>>> There is a low correlation between undergraduate degree
>>>> and mechanical skill.
>>>
>>> There are certainly outliers in both directions, but I'd bet
>>> a ton of money that the average English major is much worse
>>> at mechanical work than the average Mechanical Engineer.
>>>
>> You're back to that normal curve again. Exceptions to both.
>
> I'd take Frank's bet -- at least when it comes to bicycles. Go to the local shop and see how many of the mechanics are MEs. Its more likely they have degrees in political science -- or no degrees. Maybe I'll stop at the PSU bike hub on the way to work and check on majors. https://www.pdx.edu/bikehub/ "Say, what's your major . . . what sign are you?" They'd probably call the cops.

:-) You'd take my bet IF you get to change it very thoroughly!

Sorry, Jay, I was being specific: Average English major vs. average
Mechanical Engineer. And I wasn't limiting it to bicycles.

BTW, another neighbor of mine is an English super-major, as in PhD in
English. Over the years, I've fixed his push mower at least three or
four times, his string trimmer twice, his garage light switch once, etc.
etc. The last time I rescued him was to jump start his Prius. "The
manual says the positive clamps on this thing and the negative to clamp
way over here, but my jumper cables can't reach."

Me: "Well, take off that little clip that holds the positive an negative
cable together."

Him: "Can you do that??"

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Wednesday, September 29, 2021 at 8:13:52 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 9/29/2021 10:23 AM, jbeattie wrote:
> > On Wednesday, September 29, 2021 at 6:02:46 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 9/28/2021 11:20 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>> On 9/28/2021 9:16 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> >>>> There is a low correlation between undergraduate degree
> >>>> and mechanical skill.
> >>>
> >>> There are certainly outliers in both directions, but I'd bet
> >>> a ton of money that the average English major is much worse
> >>> at mechanical work than the average Mechanical Engineer.
> >>>
> >> You're back to that normal curve again. Exceptions to both.
> >
> > I'd take Frank's bet -- at least when it comes to bicycles. Go to the local shop and see how many of the mechanics are MEs. Its more likely they have degrees in political science -- or no degrees. Maybe I'll stop at the PSU bike hub on the way to work and check on majors. https://www.pdx.edu/bikehub/ "Say, what's your major . . . what sign are you?" They'd probably call the cops.
> :-) You'd take my bet IF you get to change it very thoroughly!
>
> Sorry, Jay, I was being specific: Average English major vs. average
> Mechanical Engineer. And I wasn't limiting it to bicycles.
>
> BTW, another neighbor of mine is an English super-major, as in PhD in
> English. Over the years, I've fixed his push mower at least three or
> four times, his string trimmer twice, his garage light switch once, etc.
> etc. The last time I rescued him was to jump start his Prius. "The
> manual says the positive clamps on this thing and the negative to clamp
> way over here, but my jumper cables can't reach."
>
> Me: "Well, take off that little clip that holds the positive an negative
> cable together."
>
> Him: "Can you do that??"

So all of your years of training qualifies you as a lawn mower repairman. After your postings I haven't the slightest surprise.

On Wednesday, September 29, 2021 at 8:13:52 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 9/29/2021 10:23 AM, jbeattie wrote:
> > On Wednesday, September 29, 2021 at 6:02:46 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 9/28/2021 11:20 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>> On 9/28/2021 9:16 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> >>>> There is a low correlation between undergraduate degree
> >>>> and mechanical skill.
> >>>
> >>> There are certainly outliers in both directions, but I'd bet
> >>> a ton of money that the average English major is much worse
> >>> at mechanical work than the average Mechanical Engineer.
> >>>
> >> You're back to that normal curve again. Exceptions to both.
> >
> > I'd take Frank's bet -- at least when it comes to bicycles. Go to the local shop and see how many of the mechanics are MEs. Its more likely they have degrees in political science -- or no degrees. Maybe I'll stop at the PSU bike hub on the way to work and check on majors. https://www.pdx.edu/bikehub/ "Say, what's your major . . . what sign are you?" They'd probably call the cops.
> :-) You'd take my bet IF you get to change it very thoroughly!
>
> Sorry, Jay, I was being specific: Average English major vs. average
> Mechanical Engineer. And I wasn't limiting it to bicycles.
>
> BTW, another neighbor of mine is an English super-major, as in PhD in
> English. Over the years, I've fixed his push mower at least three or
> four times, his string trimmer twice, his garage light switch once, etc.
> etc. The last time I rescued him was to jump start his Prius. "The
> manual says the positive clamps on this thing and the negative to clamp
> way over here, but my jumper cables can't reach."
>
> Me: "Well, take off that little clip that holds the positive an negative
> cable together."
>
> Him: "Can you do that??"

Yes, but you are known to live in a neighborhood full of over-educated dopes, at least by your reports. Don't you have some neighbor who is a rocket scientist but can't fix a flat? Seriously, there was someone you mentioned in the past with a scientific degree who couldn't fix a flat or adjust a cable barrel adjuster. Something super-simple.

And these people are clearly smarter than you, because they get you to do all the work. My guess is that they're faking stupid because they know you'll fall for it. "Frank, my mower blade is so dull, could you sharpen it, you bit strong mechanical engineer, you?" Meanwhile, back at home, "Frank is such a rube. You can get him to do anything. Next I'll tell him I can't figure out how to clean my toilet."

-- Jay Beattie.

On 9/29/2021 11:41 AM, jbeattie wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 29, 2021 at 8:13:52 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 9/29/2021 10:23 AM, jbeattie wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, September 29, 2021 at 6:02:46 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 9/28/2021 11:20 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>> On 9/28/2021 9:16 PM, jbeattie wrote:
>>>>>> There is a low correlation between undergraduate degree
>>>>>> and mechanical skill.
>>>>>
>>>>> There are certainly outliers in both directions, but I'd bet
>>>>> a ton of money that the average English major is much worse
>>>>> at mechanical work than the average Mechanical Engineer.
>>>>>
>>>> You're back to that normal curve again. Exceptions to both.
>>>
>>> I'd take Frank's bet -- at least when it comes to bicycles. Go to the local shop and see how many of the mechanics are MEs. Its more likely they have degrees in political science -- or no degrees. Maybe I'll stop at the PSU bike hub on the way to work and check on majors. https://www.pdx.edu/bikehub/ "Say, what's your major . . . what sign are you?" They'd probably call the cops.
>> :-) You'd take my bet IF you get to change it very thoroughly!
>>
>> Sorry, Jay, I was being specific: Average English major vs. average
>> Mechanical Engineer. And I wasn't limiting it to bicycles.
>>
>> BTW, another neighbor of mine is an English super-major, as in PhD in
>> English. Over the years, I've fixed his push mower at least three or
>> four times, his string trimmer twice, his garage light switch once, etc.
>> etc. The last time I rescued him was to jump start his Prius. "The
>> manual says the positive clamps on this thing and the negative to clamp
>> way over here, but my jumper cables can't reach."
>>
>> Me: "Well, take off that little clip that holds the positive an negative
>> cable together."
>>
>> Him: "Can you do that??"
>
> Yes, but you are known to live in a neighborhood full of over-educated dopes, at least by your reports. Don't you have some neighbor who is a rocket scientist but can't fix a flat? Seriously, there was someone you mentioned in the past with a scientific degree who couldn't fix a flat or adjust a cable barrel adjuster. Something super-simple.

I think you're referring to the PhD Electrical Engineer who needed me to
adjust his bike's brakes. There was another incident on campus when I
saw a faculty member's bike parked in a bike rack with the quick release
just screwed in, not clamped. I tracked that guy down and gave him a
quick lesson. He was another English PhD; I could tell by the eloquence
of his statement of thanks.

I've said before, people on r.b.tech sometimes forget that most of us
here have very unusual mechanical skill. It's not that others are dopes,
necessarily. (One of the people I've mentioned helping is pretty high up
in the university's administration, so I assume he's pretty good at
management and paperwork. Another knows things I'll never know about
dynamic stability of robots.)

But we do live in a world where something as simple as a quick release
mechanism generated "lawyer lips" to protect companies from lawsuits by
incompetents. My guess is that design kludge was not triggered by
Mechanical Engineers who couldn't read the "Open" and "Closed" labels on
the levers.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 9/29/2021 12:56 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 9/29/2021 11:41 AM, jbeattie wrote:
>> On Wednesday, September 29, 2021 at 8:13:52 AM UTC-7,
>> Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 9/29/2021 10:23 AM, jbeattie wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, September 29, 2021 at 6:02:46 AM UTC-7,
>>>> AMuzi wrote:
>>>>> On 9/28/2021 11:20 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>> On 9/28/2021 9:16 PM, jbeattie wrote:
>>>>>>> There is a low correlation between undergraduate degree
>>>>>>> and mechanical skill.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There are certainly outliers in both directions, but
>>>>>> I'd bet
>>>>>> a ton of money that the average English major is much
>>>>>> worse
>>>>>> at mechanical work than the average Mechanical Engineer.
>>>>>>
>>>>> You're back to that normal curve again. Exceptions to
>>>>> both.
>>>>
>>>> I'd take Frank's bet -- at least when it comes to
>>>> bicycles. Go to the local shop and see how many of the
>>>> mechanics are MEs. Its more likely they have degrees in
>>>> political science -- or no degrees. Maybe I'll stop at
>>>> the PSU bike hub on the way to work and check on majors.
>>>> https://www.pdx.edu/bikehub/ "Say, what's your major . .
>>>> . what sign are you?" They'd probably call the cops.
>>> :-) You'd take my bet IF you get to change it very
>>> thoroughly!
>>>
>>> Sorry, Jay, I was being specific: Average English major
>>> vs. average
>>> Mechanical Engineer. And I wasn't limiting it to bicycles.
>>>
>>> BTW, another neighbor of mine is an English super-major,
>>> as in PhD in
>>> English. Over the years, I've fixed his push mower at
>>> least three or
>>> four times, his string trimmer twice, his garage light
>>> switch once, etc.
>>> etc. The last time I rescued him was to jump start his
>>> Prius. "The
>>> manual says the positive clamps on this thing and the
>>> negative to clamp
>>> way over here, but my jumper cables can't reach."
>>>
>>> Me: "Well, take off that little clip that holds the
>>> positive an negative
>>> cable together."
>>>
>>> Him: "Can you do that??"
>>
>> Yes, but you are known to live in a neighborhood full of
>> over-educated dopes, at least by your reports. Don't you
>> have some neighbor who is a rocket scientist but can't fix
>> a flat? Seriously, there was someone you mentioned in
>> the past with a scientific degree who couldn't fix a flat
>> or adjust a cable barrel adjuster. Something super-simple.
>
> I think you're referring to the PhD Electrical Engineer who
> needed me to adjust his bike's brakes. There was another
> incident on campus when I saw a faculty member's bike parked
> in a bike rack with the quick release just screwed in, not
> clamped. I tracked that guy down and gave him a quick
> lesson. He was another English PhD; I could tell by the
> eloquence of his statement of thanks.
>
> I've said before, people on r.b.tech sometimes forget that
> most of us here have very unusual mechanical skill. It's not
> that others are dopes, necessarily. (One of the people I've
> mentioned helping is pretty high up in the university's
> administration, so I assume he's pretty good at management
> and paperwork. Another knows things I'll never know about
> dynamic stability of robots.)
>
> But we do live in a world where something as simple as a
> quick release mechanism generated "lawyer lips" to protect
> companies from lawsuits by incompetents. My guess is that
> design kludge was not triggered by Mechanical Engineers who
> couldn't read the "Open" and "Closed" labels on the levers.
>

My son in law is an engineer (not an ME) and is one of those
guys who should not be allowed near tools - not that he
willingly would. Which in no way diminishes his character,
skills or other talents. He does things I don't even
understand and gets paid a lot for that.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Wednesday, September 29, 2021 at 8:41:30 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 29, 2021 at 8:13:52 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 9/29/2021 10:23 AM, jbeattie wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, September 29, 2021 at 6:02:46 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > >> On 9/28/2021 11:20 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > >>> On 9/28/2021 9:16 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> > >>>> There is a low correlation between undergraduate degree
> > >>>> and mechanical skill.
> > >>>
> > >>> There are certainly outliers in both directions, but I'd bet
> > >>> a ton of money that the average English major is much worse
> > >>> at mechanical work than the average Mechanical Engineer.
> > >>>
> > >> You're back to that normal curve again. Exceptions to both.
> > >
> > > I'd take Frank's bet -- at least when it comes to bicycles. Go to the local shop and see how many of the mechanics are MEs. Its more likely they have degrees in political science -- or no degrees. Maybe I'll stop at the PSU bike hub on the way to work and check on majors. https://www.pdx.edu/bikehub/ "Say, what's your major . . . what sign are you?" They'd probably call the cops.
> > :-) You'd take my bet IF you get to change it very thoroughly!
> >
> > Sorry, Jay, I was being specific: Average English major vs. average
> > Mechanical Engineer. And I wasn't limiting it to bicycles.
> >
> > BTW, another neighbor of mine is an English super-major, as in PhD in
> > English. Over the years, I've fixed his push mower at least three or
> > four times, his string trimmer twice, his garage light switch once, etc..
> > etc. The last time I rescued him was to jump start his Prius. "The
> > manual says the positive clamps on this thing and the negative to clamp
> > way over here, but my jumper cables can't reach."
> >
> > Me: "Well, take off that little clip that holds the positive an negative
> > cable together."
> >
> > Him: "Can you do that??"
> Yes, but you are known to live in a neighborhood full of over-educated dopes, at least by your reports. Don't you have some neighbor who is a rocket scientist but can't fix a flat? Seriously, there was someone you mentioned in the past with a scientific degree who couldn't fix a flat or adjust a cable barrel adjuster. Something super-simple.
>
> And these people are clearly smarter than you, because they get you to do all the work. My guess is that they're faking stupid because they know you'll fall for it. "Frank, my mower blade is so dull, could you sharpen it, you bit strong mechanical engineer, you?" Meanwhile, back at home, "Frank is such a rube. You can get him to do anything. Next I'll tell him I can't figure out how to clean my toilet."
+5

On Wednesday, September 29, 2021 at 8:36:52 PM UTC+2, AMuzi wrote:
> On 9/29/2021 12:56 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 9/29/2021 11:41 AM, jbeattie wrote:
> >> On Wednesday, September 29, 2021 at 8:13:52 AM UTC-7,
> >> Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>> On 9/29/2021 10:23 AM, jbeattie wrote:
> >>>> On Wednesday, September 29, 2021 at 6:02:46 AM UTC-7,
> >>>> AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>> On 9/28/2021 11:20 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote: l
> >>>>>> On 9/28/2021 9:16 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> >>>>>>> There is a low correlation between undergraduate degree
> >>>>>>> and mechanical skill.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> There are certainly outliers in both directions, but
> >>>>>> I'd bet
> >>>>>> a ton of money that the average English major is much
> >>>>>> worse
> >>>>>> at mechanical work than the average Mechanical Engineer.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> You're back to that normal curve again. Exceptions to
> >>>>> both.
> >>>>
> >>>> I'd take Frank's bet -- at least when it comes to
> >>>> bicycles. Go to the local shop and see how many of the
> >>>> mechanics are MEs. Its more likely they have degrees in
> >>>> political science -- or no degrees. Maybe I'll stop at
> >>>> the PSU bike hub on the way to work and check on majors.
> >>>> https://www.pdx.edu/bikehub/ "Say, what's your major . .
> >>>> . what sign are you?" They'd probably call the cops.
> >>> :-) You'd take my bet IF you get to change it very
> >>> thoroughly!
> >>>
> >>> Sorry, Jay, I was being specific: Average English major
> >>> vs. average
> >>> Mechanical Engineer. And I wasn't limiting it to bicycles.
> >>>
> >>> BTW, another neighbor of mine is an English super-major,
> >>> as in PhD in
> >>> English. Over the years, I've fixed his push mower at
> >>> least three or
> >>> four times, his string trimmer twice, his garage light
> >>> switch once, etc.
> >>> etc. The last time I rescued him was to jump start his
> >>> Prius. "The
> >>> manual says the positive clamps on this thing and the
> >>> negative to clamp
> >>> way over here, but my jumper cables can't reach."
> >>>
> >>> Me: "Well, take off that little clip that holds the
> >>> positive an negative
> >>> cable together."
> >>>
> >>> Him: "Can you do that??"
> >>
> >> Yes, but you are known to live in a neighborhood full of
> >> over-educated dopes, at least by your reports. Don't you
> >> have some neighbor who is a rocket scientist but can't fix
> >> a flat? Seriously, there was someone you mentioned in
> >> the past with a scientific degree who couldn't fix a flat
> >> or adjust a cable barrel adjuster. Something super-simple.
> >
> > I think you're referring to the PhD Electrical Engineer who
> > needed me to adjust his bike's brakes. There was another
> > incident on campus when I saw a faculty member's bike parked
> > in a bike rack with the quick release just screwed in, not
> > clamped. I tracked that guy down and gave him a quick
> > lesson. He was another English PhD; I could tell by the
> > eloquence of his statement of thanks.
> >
> > I've said before, people on r.b.tech sometimes forget that
> > most of us here have very unusual mechanical skill. It's not
> > that others are dopes, necessarily. (One of the people I've
> > mentioned helping is pretty high up in the university's
> > administration, so I assume he's pretty good at management
> > and paperwork. Another knows things I'll never know about
> > dynamic stability of robots.)
> >
> > But we do live in a world where something as simple as a
> > quick release mechanism generated "lawyer lips" to protect
> > companies from lawsuits by incompetents. My guess is that
> > design kludge was not triggered by Mechanical Engineers who
> > couldn't read the "Open" and "Closed" labels on the levers.
> >
> My son in law is an engineer (not an ME) and is one of those
> guys who should not be allowed near tools - not that he
> willingly would. Which in no way diminishes his character,
> skills or other talents. He does things I don't even
> understand and gets paid a lot for that.
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

A software engineer is by definition clumsy for example.

LoU

On Wednesday, September 29, 2021 at 12:43:35 PM UTC-7, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 29, 2021 at 8:36:52 PM UTC+2, AMuzi wrote:
> > On 9/29/2021 12:56 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > On 9/29/2021 11:41 AM, jbeattie wrote:
> > >> On Wednesday, September 29, 2021 at 8:13:52 AM UTC-7,
> > >> Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > >>> On 9/29/2021 10:23 AM, jbeattie wrote:
> > >>>> On Wednesday, September 29, 2021 at 6:02:46 AM UTC-7,
> > >>>> AMuzi wrote:
> > >>>>> On 9/28/2021 11:20 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote: l
> > >>>>>> On 9/28/2021 9:16 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> > >>>>>>> There is a low correlation between undergraduate degree
> > >>>>>>> and mechanical skill.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> There are certainly outliers in both directions, but
> > >>>>>> I'd bet
> > >>>>>> a ton of money that the average English major is much
> > >>>>>> worse
> > >>>>>> at mechanical work than the average Mechanical Engineer.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>> You're back to that normal curve again. Exceptions to
> > >>>>> both.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I'd take Frank's bet -- at least when it comes to
> > >>>> bicycles. Go to the local shop and see how many of the
> > >>>> mechanics are MEs. Its more likely they have degrees in
> > >>>> political science -- or no degrees. Maybe I'll stop at
> > >>>> the PSU bike hub on the way to work and check on majors.
> > >>>> https://www.pdx.edu/bikehub/ "Say, what's your major . .
> > >>>> . what sign are you?" They'd probably call the cops.
> > >>> :-) You'd take my bet IF you get to change it very
> > >>> thoroughly!
> > >>>
> > >>> Sorry, Jay, I was being specific: Average English major
> > >>> vs. average
> > >>> Mechanical Engineer. And I wasn't limiting it to bicycles.
> > >>>
> > >>> BTW, another neighbor of mine is an English super-major,
> > >>> as in PhD in
> > >>> English. Over the years, I've fixed his push mower at
> > >>> least three or
> > >>> four times, his string trimmer twice, his garage light
> > >>> switch once, etc.
> > >>> etc. The last time I rescued him was to jump start his
> > >>> Prius. "The
> > >>> manual says the positive clamps on this thing and the
> > >>> negative to clamp
> > >>> way over here, but my jumper cables can't reach."
> > >>>
> > >>> Me: "Well, take off that little clip that holds the
> > >>> positive an negative
> > >>> cable together."
> > >>>
> > >>> Him: "Can you do that??"
> > >>
> > >> Yes, but you are known to live in a neighborhood full of
> > >> over-educated dopes, at least by your reports. Don't you
> > >> have some neighbor who is a rocket scientist but can't fix
> > >> a flat? Seriously, there was someone you mentioned in
> > >> the past with a scientific degree who couldn't fix a flat
> > >> or adjust a cable barrel adjuster. Something super-simple.
> > >
> > > I think you're referring to the PhD Electrical Engineer who
> > > needed me to adjust his bike's brakes. There was another
> > > incident on campus when I saw a faculty member's bike parked
> > > in a bike rack with the quick release just screwed in, not
> > > clamped. I tracked that guy down and gave him a quick
> > > lesson. He was another English PhD; I could tell by the
> > > eloquence of his statement of thanks.
> > >
> > > I've said before, people on r.b.tech sometimes forget that
> > > most of us here have very unusual mechanical skill. It's not
> > > that others are dopes, necessarily. (One of the people I've
> > > mentioned helping is pretty high up in the university's
> > > administration, so I assume he's pretty good at management
> > > and paperwork. Another knows things I'll never know about
> > > dynamic stability of robots.)
> > >
> > > But we do live in a world where something as simple as a
> > > quick release mechanism generated "lawyer lips" to protect
> > > companies from lawsuits by incompetents. My guess is that
> > > design kludge was not triggered by Mechanical Engineers who
> > > couldn't read the "Open" and "Closed" labels on the levers.
> > >
> > My son in law is an engineer (not an ME) and is one of those
> > guys who should not be allowed near tools - not that he
> > willingly would. Which in no way diminishes his character,
> > skills or other talents. He does things I don't even
> > understand and gets paid a lot for that.
> > --
> > Andrew Muzi
> > <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> > Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> A software engineer is by definition clumsy for example.
>
> LoU
I fitted a dragging front door into the frame and a carpenter couldn't imagine how it could be done without power tools. He didn't even know what a plane was. This was a guy who built homes all the time. I suppose he would use a power plane with circular blades or sanders. Both of those take off too much material. And you have to know how to sharpen a blade rather than replace it.

On 9/29/2021 2:36 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 9/29/2021 12:56 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 9/29/2021 11:41 AM, jbeattie wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, September 29, 2021 at 8:13:52 AM UTC-7,
>>> Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 9/29/2021 10:23 AM, jbeattie wrote:
>>>>> On Wednesday, September 29, 2021 at 6:02:46 AM UTC-7,
>>>>> AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>> On 9/28/2021 11:20 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>> On 9/28/2021 9:16 PM, jbeattie wrote:
>>>>>>>> There is a low correlation between undergraduate degree
>>>>>>>> and mechanical skill.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There are certainly outliers in both directions, but
>>>>>>> I'd bet
>>>>>>> a ton of money that the average English major is much
>>>>>>> worse
>>>>>>> at mechanical work than the average Mechanical Engineer.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> You're back to that normal curve again. Exceptions to
>>>>>> both.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd take Frank's bet -- at least when it comes to
>>>>> bicycles. Go to the local shop and see how many of the
>>>>> mechanics are MEs. Its more likely they have degrees in
>>>>> political science -- or no degrees. Maybe I'll stop at
>>>>> the PSU bike hub on the way to work and check on majors.
>>>>> https://www.pdx.edu/bikehub/ "Say, what's your major . .
>>>>> . what sign are you?" They'd probably call the cops.
>>>> :-) You'd take my bet IF you get to change it very
>>>> thoroughly!
>>>>
>>>> Sorry, Jay, I was being specific: Average English major
>>>> vs. average
>>>> Mechanical Engineer. And I wasn't limiting it to bicycles.
>>>>
>>>> BTW, another neighbor of mine is an English super-major,
>>>> as in PhD in
>>>> English. Over the years, I've fixed his push mower at
>>>> least three or
>>>> four times, his string trimmer twice, his garage light
>>>> switch once, etc.
>>>> etc. The last time I rescued him was to jump start his
>>>> Prius. "The
>>>> manual says the positive clamps on this thing and the
>>>> negative to clamp
>>>> way over here, but my jumper cables can't reach."
>>>>
>>>> Me: "Well, take off that little clip that holds the
>>>> positive an negative
>>>> cable together."
>>>>
>>>> Him: "Can you do that??"
>>>
>>> Yes, but you are known to live in a neighborhood full of
>>> over-educated dopes, at least by your reports.  Don't you
>>> have some neighbor who is a rocket scientist but can't fix
>>> a flat?   Seriously, there was someone you mentioned in
>>> the past with a scientific degree who couldn't fix a flat
>>> or adjust a cable barrel adjuster.  Something super-simple.
>>
>> I think you're referring to the PhD Electrical Engineer who
>> needed me to adjust his bike's brakes. There was another
>> incident on campus when I saw a faculty member's bike parked
>> in a bike rack with the quick release just screwed in, not
>> clamped. I tracked that guy down and gave him a quick
>> lesson. He was another English PhD; I could tell by the
>> eloquence of his statement of thanks.
>>
>> I've said before, people on r.b.tech sometimes forget that
>> most of us here have very unusual mechanical skill. It's not
>> that others are dopes, necessarily. (One of the people I've
>> mentioned helping is pretty high up in the university's
>> administration, so I assume he's pretty good at management
>> and paperwork. Another knows things I'll never know about
>> dynamic stability of robots.)
>>
>> But we do live in a world where something as simple as a
>> quick release mechanism generated "lawyer lips" to protect
>> companies from lawsuits by incompetents. My guess is that
>> design kludge was not triggered by Mechanical Engineers who
>> couldn't read the "Open" and "Closed" labels on the levers.
>>
>
> My son in law is an engineer (not an ME) and is one of those guys who
> should not be allowed near tools - not that he willingly would. Which in
> no way diminishes his character, skills or other talents. He does things
> I don't even understand and gets paid a lot for that.

Of course. In my extended family and circle of close friends, there are
several engineers of various stripes, several lawyers, one physician
(recently retired), one paramedic, one award-winning poet, some
educators, several musicians (amateur to professional level), a couple
owners of companies and more. I'm sure they're all quite capable in
their careers; but all of those have come to me for help with their bikes.

Another close friend is a former owner of a bike shop, and another is a
construction guy who once worked in a bike shop. Of course I also know
several current owners of bike shops and/or bike mechanics. Those guys
don't need my help on bikes.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Lou Holtman <lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 29, 2021 at 8:36:52 PM UTC+2, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 9/29/2021 12:56 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 9/29/2021 11:41 AM, jbeattie wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, September 29, 2021 at 8:13:52 AM UTC-7,
>>>> Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>> On 9/29/2021 10:23 AM, jbeattie wrote:
>>>>>> On Wednesday, September 29, 2021 at 6:02:46 AM UTC-7,
>>>>>> AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>> On 9/28/2021 11:20 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote: l
>>>>>>>> On 9/28/2021 9:16 PM, jbeattie wrote:
>>>>>>>>> There is a low correlation between undergraduate degree
>>>>>>>>> and mechanical skill.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There are certainly outliers in both directions, but
>>>>>>>> I'd bet
>>>>>>>> a ton of money that the average English major is much
>>>>>>>> worse
>>>>>>>> at mechanical work than the average Mechanical Engineer.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You're back to that normal curve again. Exceptions to
>>>>>>> both.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'd take Frank's bet -- at least when it comes to
>>>>>> bicycles. Go to the local shop and see how many of the
>>>>>> mechanics are MEs. Its more likely they have degrees in
>>>>>> political science -- or no degrees. Maybe I'll stop at
>>>>>> the PSU bike hub on the way to work and check on majors.
>>>>>> https://www.pdx.edu/bikehub/ "Say, what's your major . .
>>>>>> . what sign are you?" They'd probably call the cops.
>>>>> :-) You'd take my bet IF you get to change it very
>>>>> thoroughly!
>>>>>
>>>>> Sorry, Jay, I was being specific: Average English major
>>>>> vs. average
>>>>> Mechanical Engineer. And I wasn't limiting it to bicycles.
>>>>>
>>>>> BTW, another neighbor of mine is an English super-major,
>>>>> as in PhD in
>>>>> English. Over the years, I've fixed his push mower at
>>>>> least three or
>>>>> four times, his string trimmer twice, his garage light
>>>>> switch once, etc.
>>>>> etc. The last time I rescued him was to jump start his
>>>>> Prius. "The
>>>>> manual says the positive clamps on this thing and the
>>>>> negative to clamp
>>>>> way over here, but my jumper cables can't reach."
>>>>>
>>>>> Me: "Well, take off that little clip that holds the
>>>>> positive an negative
>>>>> cable together."
>>>>>
>>>>> Him: "Can you do that??"
>>>>
>>>> Yes, but you are known to live in a neighborhood full of
>>>> over-educated dopes, at least by your reports. Don't you
>>>> have some neighbor who is a rocket scientist but can't fix
>>>> a flat? Seriously, there was someone you mentioned in
>>>> the past with a scientific degree who couldn't fix a flat
>>>> or adjust a cable barrel adjuster. Something super-simple.
>>>
>>> I think you're referring to the PhD Electrical Engineer who
>>> needed me to adjust his bike's brakes. There was another
>>> incident on campus when I saw a faculty member's bike parked
>>> in a bike rack with the quick release just screwed in, not
>>> clamped. I tracked that guy down and gave him a quick
>>> lesson. He was another English PhD; I could tell by the
>>> eloquence of his statement of thanks.
>>>
>>> I've said before, people on r.b.tech sometimes forget that
>>> most of us here have very unusual mechanical skill. It's not
>>> that others are dopes, necessarily. (One of the people I've
>>> mentioned helping is pretty high up in the university's
>>> administration, so I assume he's pretty good at management
>>> and paperwork. Another knows things I'll never know about
>>> dynamic stability of robots.)
>>>
>>> But we do live in a world where something as simple as a
>>> quick release mechanism generated "lawyer lips" to protect
>>> companies from lawsuits by incompetents. My guess is that
>>> design kludge was not triggered by Mechanical Engineers who
>>> couldn't read the "Open" and "Closed" labels on the levers.
>>>
>> My son in law is an engineer (not an ME) and is one of those
>> guys who should not be allowed near tools - not that he
>> willingly would. Which in no way diminishes his character,
>> skills or other talents. He does things I don't even
>> understand and gets paid a lot for that.
>> --
>> Andrew Muzi
>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>
> A software engineer is by definition clumsy for example.
>
> LoU
>

Yeah it’s our tendency toward abstraction that gives that impression.

On Wed, 29 Sep 2021 11:13:48 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 9/29/2021 10:23 AM, jbeattie wrote:
>> On Wednesday, September 29, 2021 at 6:02:46 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 9/28/2021 11:20 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 9/28/2021 9:16 PM, jbeattie wrote:
>>>>> There is a low correlation between undergraduate degree
>>>>> and mechanical skill.
>>>>
>>>> There are certainly outliers in both directions, but I'd bet
>>>> a ton of money that the average English major is much worse
>>>> at mechanical work than the average Mechanical Engineer.
>>>>
>>> You're back to that normal curve again. Exceptions to both.
>>
>> I'd take Frank's bet -- at least when it comes to bicycles. Go to the local shop and see how many of the mechanics are MEs. Its more likely they have degrees in political science -- or no degrees. Maybe I'll stop at the PSU bike hub on the way to work and check on majors. https://www.pdx.edu/bikehub/ "Say, what's your major . . . what sign are you?" They'd probably call the cops.
>
>:-) You'd take my bet IF you get to change it very thoroughly!
>
>Sorry, Jay, I was being specific: Average English major vs. average
>Mechanical Engineer. And I wasn't limiting it to bicycles.
>
>BTW, another neighbor of mine is an English super-major, as in PhD in
>English. Over the years, I've fixed his push mower at least three or
>four times, his string trimmer twice, his garage light switch once, etc.
>etc. The last time I rescued him was to jump start his Prius. "The
>manual says the positive clamps on this thing and the negative to clamp
>way over here, but my jumper cables can't reach."
>
>Me: "Well, take off that little clip that holds the positive an negative
>cable together."
>
>Him: "Can you do that??"

I'm not sure that selection of a major course of study is an
indication of mechanical ability. I've mentioned the young Airman who
wrote the large companies to determine what courses would give him the
best chance of getting a job and that reply was English! So he was
taking English courses.

He was a sheetmetal man.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wednesday, September 29, 2021 at 3:19:44 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
> On Wed, 29 Sep 2021 11:13:48 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> >On 9/29/2021 10:23 AM, jbeattie wrote:
> >> On Wednesday, September 29, 2021 at 6:02:46 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >>> On 9/28/2021 11:20 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>> On 9/28/2021 9:16 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> >>>>> There is a low correlation between undergraduate degree
> >>>>> and mechanical skill.
> >>>>
> >>>> There are certainly outliers in both directions, but I'd bet
> >>>> a ton of money that the average English major is much worse
> >>>> at mechanical work than the average Mechanical Engineer.
> >>>>
> >>> You're back to that normal curve again. Exceptions to both.
> >>
> >> I'd take Frank's bet -- at least when it comes to bicycles. Go to the local shop and see how many of the mechanics are MEs. Its more likely they have degrees in political science -- or no degrees. Maybe I'll stop at the PSU bike hub on the way to work and check on majors. https://www.pdx.edu/bikehub/ "Say, what's your major . . . what sign are you?" They'd probably call the cops.
> >
> >:-) You'd take my bet IF you get to change it very thoroughly!
> >
> >Sorry, Jay, I was being specific: Average English major vs. average
> >Mechanical Engineer. And I wasn't limiting it to bicycles.
> >
> >BTW, another neighbor of mine is an English super-major, as in PhD in
> >English. Over the years, I've fixed his push mower at least three or
> >four times, his string trimmer twice, his garage light switch once, etc.
> >etc. The last time I rescued him was to jump start his Prius. "The
> >manual says the positive clamps on this thing and the negative to clamp
> >way over here, but my jumper cables can't reach."
> >
> >Me: "Well, take off that little clip that holds the positive an negative
> >cable together."
> >
> >Him: "Can you do that??"
> I'm not sure that selection of a major course of study is an
> indication of mechanical ability. I've mentioned the young Airman who
> wrote the large companies to determine what courses would give him the
> best chance of getting a job and that reply was English! So he was
> taking English courses.
>
> He was a sheetmetal man.

80% of all college graduates never work one day in their major. Now these people may be extremely intelligent but what a waste of time and money to study political science and live your entire life installing telephones or being a bank manager.

On Wed, 29 Sep 2021 13:56:07 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 9/29/2021 11:41 AM, jbeattie wrote:
>> On Wednesday, September 29, 2021 at 8:13:52 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 9/29/2021 10:23 AM, jbeattie wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, September 29, 2021 at 6:02:46 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>> On 9/28/2021 11:20 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>> On 9/28/2021 9:16 PM, jbeattie wrote:
>>>>>>> There is a low correlation between undergraduate degree
>>>>>>> and mechanical skill.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There are certainly outliers in both directions, but I'd bet
>>>>>> a ton of money that the average English major is much worse
>>>>>> at mechanical work than the average Mechanical Engineer.
>>>>>>
>>>>> You're back to that normal curve again. Exceptions to both.
>>>>
>>>> I'd take Frank's bet -- at least when it comes to bicycles. Go to the local shop and see how many of the mechanics are MEs. Its more likely they have degrees in political science -- or no degrees. Maybe I'll stop at the PSU bike hub on the way to work and check on majors. https://www.pdx.edu/bikehub/ "Say, what's your major . . . what sign are you?" They'd probably call the cops.
>>> :-) You'd take my bet IF you get to change it very thoroughly!
>>>
>>> Sorry, Jay, I was being specific: Average English major vs. average
>>> Mechanical Engineer. And I wasn't limiting it to bicycles.
>>>
>>> BTW, another neighbor of mine is an English super-major, as in PhD in
>>> English. Over the years, I've fixed his push mower at least three or
>>> four times, his string trimmer twice, his garage light switch once, etc.
>>> etc. The last time I rescued him was to jump start his Prius. "The
>>> manual says the positive clamps on this thing and the negative to clamp
>>> way over here, but my jumper cables can't reach."
>>>
>>> Me: "Well, take off that little clip that holds the positive an negative
>>> cable together."
>>>
>>> Him: "Can you do that??"
>>
>> Yes, but you are known to live in a neighborhood full of over-educated dopes, at least by your reports. Don't you have some neighbor who is a rocket scientist but can't fix a flat? Seriously, there was someone you mentioned in the past with a scientific degree who couldn't fix a flat or adjust a cable barrel adjuster. Something super-simple.
>
>I think you're referring to the PhD Electrical Engineer who needed me to
>adjust his bike's brakes. There was another incident on campus when I
>saw a faculty member's bike parked in a bike rack with the quick release
>just screwed in, not clamped. I tracked that guy down and gave him a
>quick lesson. He was another English PhD; I could tell by the eloquence
>of his statement of thanks.
>
>I've said before, people on r.b.tech sometimes forget that most of us
>here have very unusual mechanical skill. It's not that others are dopes,
>necessarily. (One of the people I've mentioned helping is pretty high up
>in the university's administration, so I assume he's pretty good at
>management and paperwork. Another knows things I'll never know about
>dynamic stability of robots.)
>
>But we do live in a world where something as simple as a quick release
>mechanism generated "lawyer lips" to protect companies from lawsuits by
>incompetents. My guess is that design kludge was not triggered by
>Mechanical Engineers who couldn't read the "Open" and "Closed" labels on
>the levers.

I suggest that you are confusing mechanical ability with greed. See
the engineers could only figure out how to open the quick release
while the lawyers could see another way to get rich, (Sue the company,
they've got a bunch of money and we can grab some).
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wednesday, September 29, 2021 at 3:26:35 PM UTC-7, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 29, 2021 at 3:19:44 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
> > On Wed, 29 Sep 2021 11:13:48 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> > <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >
> > >On 9/29/2021 10:23 AM, jbeattie wrote:
> > >> On Wednesday, September 29, 2021 at 6:02:46 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > >>> On 9/28/2021 11:20 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > >>>> On 9/28/2021 9:16 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> > >>>>> There is a low correlation between undergraduate degree
> > >>>>> and mechanical skill.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> There are certainly outliers in both directions, but I'd bet
> > >>>> a ton of money that the average English major is much worse
> > >>>> at mechanical work than the average Mechanical Engineer.
> > >>>>
> > >>> You're back to that normal curve again. Exceptions to both.
> > >>
> > >> I'd take Frank's bet -- at least when it comes to bicycles. Go to the local shop and see how many of the mechanics are MEs. Its more likely they have degrees in political science -- or no degrees. Maybe I'll stop at the PSU bike hub on the way to work and check on majors. https://www.pdx.edu/bikehub/ "Say, what's your major . . . what sign are you?" They'd probably call the cops.
> > >
> > >:-) You'd take my bet IF you get to change it very thoroughly!
> > >
> > >Sorry, Jay, I was being specific: Average English major vs. average
> > >Mechanical Engineer. And I wasn't limiting it to bicycles.
> > >
> > >BTW, another neighbor of mine is an English super-major, as in PhD in
> > >English. Over the years, I've fixed his push mower at least three or
> > >four times, his string trimmer twice, his garage light switch once, etc.
> > >etc. The last time I rescued him was to jump start his Prius. "The
> > >manual says the positive clamps on this thing and the negative to clamp
> > >way over here, but my jumper cables can't reach."
> > >
> > >Me: "Well, take off that little clip that holds the positive an negative
> > >cable together."
> > >
> > >Him: "Can you do that??"
> > I'm not sure that selection of a major course of study is an
> > indication of mechanical ability. I've mentioned the young Airman who
> > wrote the large companies to determine what courses would give him the
> > best chance of getting a job and that reply was English! So he was
> > taking English courses.
> >
> > He was a sheetmetal man.

> 80% of all college graduates never work one day in their major. Now these people may be extremely intelligent but what a waste of time and money to study political science and live your entire life installing telephones or being a bank manager.

The correlation between a student's major and his vocation is not the only measure of whether a college education is "useful." Being able to speak and write well will give you a leg up in most vocations, just like JB mentioned. Is it a good return on investment? Who knows. It worked out for me, but my tuition started at $78 a semester and sky-rocketed to $98 a semester only five years later (I added a year for my teaching credential). I worked full time for four of those years as an ambulance driver, which accounts for the fact that I don't really remember my first year of college because I was working night shifts five days a week, but I graduated with money in the bank -- notwithstanding my excessive spending on bicycles.

The cost of college these days is pretty crazy -- along with rent, food, etc. A kid can't work his way through college like I did unless he has a job as a junior executive or a skilled tradesman. Flipping burgers would barely cover rent and food, let alone tuition.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Wednesday, September 29, 2021 at 3:44:58 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
> On Wed, 29 Sep 2021 13:56:07 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> >On 9/29/2021 11:41 AM, jbeattie wrote:
> >> On Wednesday, September 29, 2021 at 8:13:52 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>> On 9/29/2021 10:23 AM, jbeattie wrote:
> >>>> On Wednesday, September 29, 2021 at 6:02:46 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>> On 9/28/2021 11:20 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>>>> On 9/28/2021 9:16 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> >>>>>>> There is a low correlation between undergraduate degree
> >>>>>>> and mechanical skill.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> There are certainly outliers in both directions, but I'd bet
> >>>>>> a ton of money that the average English major is much worse
> >>>>>> at mechanical work than the average Mechanical Engineer.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> You're back to that normal curve again. Exceptions to both.
> >>>>
> >>>> I'd take Frank's bet -- at least when it comes to bicycles. Go to the local shop and see how many of the mechanics are MEs. Its more likely they have degrees in political science -- or no degrees. Maybe I'll stop at the PSU bike hub on the way to work and check on majors. https://www.pdx.edu/bikehub/ "Say, what's your major . . . what sign are you?" They'd probably call the cops.
> >>> :-) You'd take my bet IF you get to change it very thoroughly!
> >>>
> >>> Sorry, Jay, I was being specific: Average English major vs. average
> >>> Mechanical Engineer. And I wasn't limiting it to bicycles.
> >>>
> >>> BTW, another neighbor of mine is an English super-major, as in PhD in
> >>> English. Over the years, I've fixed his push mower at least three or
> >>> four times, his string trimmer twice, his garage light switch once, etc.
> >>> etc. The last time I rescued him was to jump start his Prius. "The
> >>> manual says the positive clamps on this thing and the negative to clamp
> >>> way over here, but my jumper cables can't reach."
> >>>
> >>> Me: "Well, take off that little clip that holds the positive an negative
> >>> cable together."
> >>>
> >>> Him: "Can you do that??"
> >>
> >> Yes, but you are known to live in a neighborhood full of over-educated dopes, at least by your reports. Don't you have some neighbor who is a rocket scientist but can't fix a flat? Seriously, there was someone you mentioned in the past with a scientific degree who couldn't fix a flat or adjust a cable barrel adjuster. Something super-simple.
> >
> >I think you're referring to the PhD Electrical Engineer who needed me to
> >adjust his bike's brakes. There was another incident on campus when I
> >saw a faculty member's bike parked in a bike rack with the quick release
> >just screwed in, not clamped. I tracked that guy down and gave him a
> >quick lesson. He was another English PhD; I could tell by the eloquence
> >of his statement of thanks.
> >
> >I've said before, people on r.b.tech sometimes forget that most of us
> >here have very unusual mechanical skill. It's not that others are dopes,
> >necessarily. (One of the people I've mentioned helping is pretty high up
> >in the university's administration, so I assume he's pretty good at
> >management and paperwork. Another knows things I'll never know about
> >dynamic stability of robots.)
> >
> >But we do live in a world where something as simple as a quick release
> >mechanism generated "lawyer lips" to protect companies from lawsuits by
> >incompetents. My guess is that design kludge was not triggered by
> >Mechanical Engineers who couldn't read the "Open" and "Closed" labels on
> >the levers.
> I suggest that you are confusing mechanical ability with greed. See
> the engineers could only figure out how to open the quick release
> while the lawyers could see another way to get rich, (Sue the company,
> they've got a bunch of money and we can grab some).

I've defended those kinds of suits, and they're not driven by lawyers -- at least in the way you suggest. People get in accidents, blame the bike and go to a lawyer. The lawyer pursues the claim and takes his cut. You do get fishing with mass injuries caused by some products -- like "have you been injured by [asbestos, Round Up, name-a-drug]. Bicycle cases are generally small potatoes, and you don't get television commercials asking "have you been injured by a quick release?" "Did your shock fork fail to absorb a bump?" "Do you have saddle sores?" I actually feel sorry for the "bicycle lawyers," since the work is just car accidents for the most part -- PIP and UIM claims. There are not a lot of products cases, which is a good thing for consumers.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Wed, 29 Sep 2021 15:26:33 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, September 29, 2021 at 3:19:44 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
>> On Wed, 29 Sep 2021 11:13:48 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>> >On 9/29/2021 10:23 AM, jbeattie wrote:
>> >> On Wednesday, September 29, 2021 at 6:02:46 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> >>> On 9/28/2021 11:20 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> >>>> On 9/28/2021 9:16 PM, jbeattie wrote:
>> >>>>> There is a low correlation between undergraduate degree
>> >>>>> and mechanical skill.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> There are certainly outliers in both directions, but I'd bet
>> >>>> a ton of money that the average English major is much worse
>> >>>> at mechanical work than the average Mechanical Engineer.
>> >>>>
>> >>> You're back to that normal curve again. Exceptions to both.
>> >>
>> >> I'd take Frank's bet -- at least when it comes to bicycles. Go to the local shop and see how many of the mechanics are MEs. Its more likely they have degrees in political science -- or no degrees. Maybe I'll stop at the PSU bike hub on the way to work and check on majors. https://www.pdx.edu/bikehub/ "Say, what's your major . . . what sign are you?" They'd probably call the cops.
>> >
>> >:-) You'd take my bet IF you get to change it very thoroughly!
>> >
>> >Sorry, Jay, I was being specific: Average English major vs. average
>> >Mechanical Engineer. And I wasn't limiting it to bicycles.
>> >
>> >BTW, another neighbor of mine is an English super-major, as in PhD in
>> >English. Over the years, I've fixed his push mower at least three or
>> >four times, his string trimmer twice, his garage light switch once, etc.
>> >etc. The last time I rescued him was to jump start his Prius. "The
>> >manual says the positive clamps on this thing and the negative to clamp
>> >way over here, but my jumper cables can't reach."
>> >
>> >Me: "Well, take off that little clip that holds the positive an negative
>> >cable together."
>> >
>> >Him: "Can you do that??"
>> I'm not sure that selection of a major course of study is an
>> indication of mechanical ability. I've mentioned the young Airman who
>> wrote the large companies to determine what courses would give him the
>> best chance of getting a job and that reply was English! So he was
>> taking English courses.
>>
>> He was a sheetmetal man.
>
>80% of all college graduates never work one day in their major. Now these people may be extremely intelligent but what a waste of time and money to study political science and live your entire life installing telephones or being a bank manager.

Well, sort of. The Census shows that in 2010 only 62.1% of collage
graduates were employed in jobs that required a collage degree and 27%
of college grads had a job that was closely related to their major.
However, these percentages excluded those who had advanced degrees.

Some other stuff from the census:
Among immigrants who have arrived since 2000, 38.8 percent have a
bachelor’s degree or higher, compared with 35.2 percent of the
native-born.
Asians ages 25 to 29 in 2018, almost 7 in 10 (69.5 percent) had a
bachelor’s or higher degree.
Naturalized citizens were among the groups with high levels of college
attainment — 38.4 percent had a bachelor’s degree or higher.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wed, 29 Sep 2021 16:09:58 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
<jbeattie57@msn.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, September 29, 2021 at 3:44:58 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
>> On Wed, 29 Sep 2021 13:56:07 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>> >On 9/29/2021 11:41 AM, jbeattie wrote:
>> >> On Wednesday, September 29, 2021 at 8:13:52 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> >>> On 9/29/2021 10:23 AM, jbeattie wrote:
>> >>>> On Wednesday, September 29, 2021 at 6:02:46 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> >>>>> On 9/28/2021 11:20 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> >>>>>> On 9/28/2021 9:16 PM, jbeattie wrote:
>> >>>>>>> There is a low correlation between undergraduate degree
>> >>>>>>> and mechanical skill.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> There are certainly outliers in both directions, but I'd bet
>> >>>>>> a ton of money that the average English major is much worse
>> >>>>>> at mechanical work than the average Mechanical Engineer.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>> You're back to that normal curve again. Exceptions to both.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I'd take Frank's bet -- at least when it comes to bicycles. Go to the local shop and see how many of the mechanics are MEs. Its more likely they have degrees in political science -- or no degrees. Maybe I'll stop at the PSU bike hub on the way to work and check on majors. https://www.pdx.edu/bikehub/ "Say, what's your major . . . what sign are you?" They'd probably call the cops.
>> >>> :-) You'd take my bet IF you get to change it very thoroughly!
>> >>>
>> >>> Sorry, Jay, I was being specific: Average English major vs. average
>> >>> Mechanical Engineer. And I wasn't limiting it to bicycles.
>> >>>
>> >>> BTW, another neighbor of mine is an English super-major, as in PhD in
>> >>> English. Over the years, I've fixed his push mower at least three or
>> >>> four times, his string trimmer twice, his garage light switch once, etc.
>> >>> etc. The last time I rescued him was to jump start his Prius. "The
>> >>> manual says the positive clamps on this thing and the negative to clamp
>> >>> way over here, but my jumper cables can't reach."
>> >>>
>> >>> Me: "Well, take off that little clip that holds the positive an negative
>> >>> cable together."
>> >>>
>> >>> Him: "Can you do that??"
>> >>
>> >> Yes, but you are known to live in a neighborhood full of over-educated dopes, at least by your reports. Don't you have some neighbor who is a rocket scientist but can't fix a flat? Seriously, there was someone you mentioned in the past with a scientific degree who couldn't fix a flat or adjust a cable barrel adjuster. Something super-simple.
>> >
>> >I think you're referring to the PhD Electrical Engineer who needed me to
>> >adjust his bike's brakes. There was another incident on campus when I
>> >saw a faculty member's bike parked in a bike rack with the quick release
>> >just screwed in, not clamped. I tracked that guy down and gave him a
>> >quick lesson. He was another English PhD; I could tell by the eloquence
>> >of his statement of thanks.
>> >
>> >I've said before, people on r.b.tech sometimes forget that most of us
>> >here have very unusual mechanical skill. It's not that others are dopes,
>> >necessarily. (One of the people I've mentioned helping is pretty high up
>> >in the university's administration, so I assume he's pretty good at
>> >management and paperwork. Another knows things I'll never know about
>> >dynamic stability of robots.)
>> >
>> >But we do live in a world where something as simple as a quick release
>> >mechanism generated "lawyer lips" to protect companies from lawsuits by
>> >incompetents. My guess is that design kludge was not triggered by
>> >Mechanical Engineers who couldn't read the "Open" and "Closed" labels on
>> >the levers.
>> I suggest that you are confusing mechanical ability with greed. See
>> the engineers could only figure out how to open the quick release
>> while the lawyers could see another way to get rich, (Sue the company,
>> they've got a bunch of money and we can grab some).
>
>I've defended those kinds of suits, and they're not driven by lawyers -- at least in the way you suggest. People get in accidents, blame the bike and go to a lawyer. The lawyer pursues the claim and takes his cut. You do get fishing with mass injuries caused by some products -- like "have you been injured by [asbestos, Round Up, name-a-drug]. Bicycle cases are generally small potatoes, and you don't get television commercials asking "have you been injured by a quick release?" "Did your shock fork fail to absorb a bump?" "Do you have saddle sores?" I actually feel sorry for the "bicycle lawyers," since the work is just car accidents for the most part -- PIP and UIM claims. There are not a lot of products cases, which is a good thing for consumers.
>
>-- Jay Beattie.

I would debate several of those comments' The so called "Lawyer's
Lips" come to mind here You don't properly tighten the quick release,
or axle nut, the wheel falls off and the argument is "The manufacturer
should have done something" or my ladder with the notice on the side
that "Improper use of this device may result in injury or death". Is
the American public really so stupid as to have written warning that
falling off a ladder is not really a good thing to do?

Or the really best one: You order a cup of hot coffee, the guy sells
you a cup of hot coffee. You accept and pay for the hot cup of coffee.
You carry the cup of hot coffee away. You spill the hot coffee on your
pants and you sue the company that made the coffee. And yes I have
read the outcome of that case but that doesn't negate the fact that
the initial decision was that the seller was at fault, at least to
the extent of a whole bushel basket full of money.

Just out curiosity. Do your skis have a sticker on them saying that
"Improper use may result in serious injury or death"? Yet you were
injured.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wednesday, September 29, 2021 at 7:25:46 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
> On Wed, 29 Sep 2021 16:09:58 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
> <jbeat...@msn.com> wrote:
>
> >On Wednesday, September 29, 2021 at 3:44:58 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
> >> On Wed, 29 Sep 2021 13:56:07 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> >> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On 9/29/2021 11:41 AM, jbeattie wrote:
> >> >> On Wednesday, September 29, 2021 at 8:13:52 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >> >>> On 9/29/2021 10:23 AM, jbeattie wrote:
> >> >>>> On Wednesday, September 29, 2021 at 6:02:46 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >> >>>>> On 9/28/2021 11:20 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >> >>>>>> On 9/28/2021 9:16 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> >> >>>>>>> There is a low correlation between undergraduate degree
> >> >>>>>>> and mechanical skill.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> There are certainly outliers in both directions, but I'd bet
> >> >>>>>> a ton of money that the average English major is much worse
> >> >>>>>> at mechanical work than the average Mechanical Engineer.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>> You're back to that normal curve again. Exceptions to both.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> I'd take Frank's bet -- at least when it comes to bicycles. Go to the local shop and see how many of the mechanics are MEs. Its more likely they have degrees in political science -- or no degrees. Maybe I'll stop at the PSU bike hub on the way to work and check on majors. https://www.pdx.edu/bikehub/ "Say, what's your major . . . what sign are you?" They'd probably call the cops.
> >> >>> :-) You'd take my bet IF you get to change it very thoroughly!
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Sorry, Jay, I was being specific: Average English major vs. average
> >> >>> Mechanical Engineer. And I wasn't limiting it to bicycles.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> BTW, another neighbor of mine is an English super-major, as in PhD in
> >> >>> English. Over the years, I've fixed his push mower at least three or
> >> >>> four times, his string trimmer twice, his garage light switch once, etc.
> >> >>> etc. The last time I rescued him was to jump start his Prius. "The
> >> >>> manual says the positive clamps on this thing and the negative to clamp
> >> >>> way over here, but my jumper cables can't reach."
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Me: "Well, take off that little clip that holds the positive an negative
> >> >>> cable together."
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Him: "Can you do that??"
> >> >>
> >> >> Yes, but you are known to live in a neighborhood full of over-educated dopes, at least by your reports. Don't you have some neighbor who is a rocket scientist but can't fix a flat? Seriously, there was someone you mentioned in the past with a scientific degree who couldn't fix a flat or adjust a cable barrel adjuster. Something super-simple.
> >> >
> >> >I think you're referring to the PhD Electrical Engineer who needed me to
> >> >adjust his bike's brakes. There was another incident on campus when I
> >> >saw a faculty member's bike parked in a bike rack with the quick release
> >> >just screwed in, not clamped. I tracked that guy down and gave him a
> >> >quick lesson. He was another English PhD; I could tell by the eloquence
> >> >of his statement of thanks.
> >> >
> >> >I've said before, people on r.b.tech sometimes forget that most of us
> >> >here have very unusual mechanical skill. It's not that others are dopes,
> >> >necessarily. (One of the people I've mentioned helping is pretty high up
> >> >in the university's administration, so I assume he's pretty good at
> >> >management and paperwork. Another knows things I'll never know about
> >> >dynamic stability of robots.)
> >> >
> >> >But we do live in a world where something as simple as a quick release
> >> >mechanism generated "lawyer lips" to protect companies from lawsuits by
> >> >incompetents. My guess is that design kludge was not triggered by
> >> >Mechanical Engineers who couldn't read the "Open" and "Closed" labels on
> >> >the levers.
> >> I suggest that you are confusing mechanical ability with greed. See
> >> the engineers could only figure out how to open the quick release
> >> while the lawyers could see another way to get rich, (Sue the company,
> >> they've got a bunch of money and we can grab some).
> >
> >I've defended those kinds of suits, and they're not driven by lawyers -- at least in the way you suggest. People get in accidents, blame the bike and go to a lawyer. The lawyer pursues the claim and takes his cut. You do get fishing with mass injuries caused by some products -- like "have you been injured by [asbestos, Round Up, name-a-drug]. Bicycle cases are generally small potatoes, and you don't get television commercials asking "have you been injured by a quick release?" "Did your shock fork fail to absorb a bump?" "Do you have saddle sores?" I actually feel sorry for the "bicycle lawyers," since the work is just car accidents for the most part -- PIP and UIM claims. There are not a lot of products cases, which is a good thing for consumers.
> >
> >-- Jay Beattie.
> I would debate several of those comments' The so called "Lawyer's
> Lips" come to mind here You don't properly tighten the quick release,
> or axle nut, the wheel falls off and the argument is "The manufacturer
> should have done something" or my ladder with the notice on the side
> that "Improper use of this device may result in injury or death". Is
> the American public really so stupid as to have written warning that
> falling off a ladder is not really a good thing to do?
>
> Or the really best one: You order a cup of hot coffee, the guy sells
> you a cup of hot coffee. You accept and pay for the hot cup of coffee.
> You carry the cup of hot coffee away. You spill the hot coffee on your
> pants and you sue the company that made the coffee. And yes I have
> read the outcome of that case but that doesn't negate the fact that
> the initial decision was that the seller was at fault, at least to
> the extent of a whole bushel basket full of money.
>
> Just out curiosity. Do your skis have a sticker on them saying that
> "Improper use may result in serious injury or death"? Yet you were
> injured.

Regrettably, the public gets the easy-reader and click-bait version of cases. I defend products cases and trend conservative, but the Liebeck case (McDonalds' coffee case) was far more nuanced, and the verdict was the result of monumental mistakes by the defense, IMO.

Under-tightened QRs can come loose, or they can come loose through oversight. I had a QR come loose in the middle of a race, probably because I was late and in a hurry to get my wheel on. I caught it, stopped and throttled myself to catch back on. I was happy to have lawyers lips so I could get to the top of the climb before having to stop.

Anyway, juries hear the evidence, including expert testimony, and determine whether a product is unreasonably dangerous. Maybe they're swayed by the magnitude of injury or they like the plaintiff, but whatever the reason, manufacturers take heed and make changes, even if it is only an obvious instruction.

A product is defective if it is dangerous to a degree beyond that expected by an ordinary consumer of the product. Ordinary consumers of skis understand that accidents happen, so skis are not unreasonably dangerous. Cigarettes are not defective because they cause addiction or cancer since everyone knows they cause addiction or cancer. Under the consumer expectation test, unshielded meat cutters with giant open blades are also not unreasonably dangerous because everyone knows they will cut-off your arm. So, to avoid the marketing of clearly dangerous devices, California and some other states developed the risk-utility test, which looks at whether the risk of the device without practicable safety devices outweighs its utility. This is why the Hobart meat cutters have guards -- and I didn't lose my fingers cutting salamis at the pizza parlor when I was a kid.

It's not as crazy as it seems.

-- Jay Beattie.