On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 12:54:59 PM UTC-7, Radey Shouman wrote:
> jbeattie <jbeat...@msn.com> writes:
>
> > On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 7:38:07 AM UTC-7, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On Sunday, October 3, 2021 at 6:56:29 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
> >> > On Sun, 3 Oct 2021 19:22:20 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> >> > <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > >On 10/3/2021 6:41 PM, John B. wrote:
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Really off the subject but what is this "coal-roll" that they talk
> >> > >> about? On one of the reports of the accident it shows what appears to
> >> > >> be a great cloud of black smoke but I've driven a diesel pickup for
> >> > >> years and never seen anything like that.
> >> > >
> >> > >"Rolling Coal" is a purposely obnoxious tactic of certain owners of
> >> > >pickup trucks. The typical culprit has a relatively new pickup powered
> >> > >by a diesel engine, and very often sporting oversized wheels and very
> >> > >knobby tires. Also typical are various window decals or bumper stickers
> >> > >attesting to the manliness of the driver or the inferiority of other
> >> > >models of trucks, etc. American flags are not uncommon on the trucks,
> >> > >except in the southern U.S. where confederate flags dominate. (Down
> >> > >there a gun rack will also be visible through the truck's back window.)
> >> > >
> >> > >These trucks are deliberately modified to emit absolutely opaque clouds
> >> > >of diesel exhaust on demand. Bicyclists are common targets, but so are
> >> > >cars that indicate a philosophy the asshole driver doesn't like. Toyota
> >> > >Priuses are targets because they tend to be bought by people who value
> >> > >efficiency and/or the environment.
> >> > >
> >> > >These asshole pickup drivers have other favored obnoxious behaviors.. Of
> >> > >course, blaring super-loud music is fun for them. So is mercilessly
> >> > >tailgating other vehicles. Some have been known to purposely park in a
> >> > >way to block electric vehicle charging stations. And I've had them
> >> > >deliberately try to blind me with their auxiliary mega-lumen light bars.
> >> > >
> >> > >Of course, "rolling coal" is illegal, but it's very hard to prosecute.
> >> > >It's a behavior of a thuggish sub-culture with all the symptoms of a
> >> > >very low average IQ.
> >> > I hear you talking but I still don't understand how it is done. A
> >> > diesel engine accelerates by injecting more fuel then required at a
> >> > given RPM and thus developing more power and increasing RPM and
> >> > certainly if you jam the throttle open at low RPM and diesel powered
> >> > engine will "smoke" but not to the extent it showed.
> >> >
> >> > But all this derogator talk about Red Necks and Pickup Drivers. And
> >> > here you were going on about how bad prejudice attitudes are, just the
> >> > other day. (:-)
> >> As much as it pains me, you are quite correct John. It is not "coal
> >> rolling" but COLD rolling. As you know, diesels run rich when they
> >> are not up to running temperature so the sorts of drivers that buy
> >> diesel pickups, usually 4 wheel drive and with oversized wheels and
> >> snow tires on them are in crowds, they can stomp on the accelerator
> >> and produce tons of diesel smoke. Unlike Weeks experience I have not
> >> seen that it has anything at all to do with "protestors" or people
> >> riding bikes but rather anyone that is in their way and going slower
> >> than they wish to go. But I suppose that you can invent almost any
> >> reason for anything. There are no "switches" to somehow cause this
> >> and after the engine warms up it produced only the normal amount of
> >> diesel smoke which I suppose looks offensive to people who desire
> >> Tesla electric cars.
> >
> > No, its "rolling coal" or "coal rolling" -- and yes, it does require
> > modification of the engine/fuel
> > system. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_coal
> > https://auto.howstuffworks.com/coal-rollers.htm
> > https://www.truckofmine.com/how-to-make-your-truck-roll-coal/ I
> > suppose you could get a badly tuned diesel to belch smoke, but coal
> > rolling as some asshole-artform requires engine modifications.
> >
> > And no, modern jets do not burn diesel. They burn jet fuel, which is
> > a kerosene blend.
> Diesel, kerosene, and jet A are all pretty similar in composition and
> properties. Specifications (eg cloud point), dye, and tax regimes are
> different. Diesel cars will happily burn kerosene, and smell better too
> (kerosene is required to smell nice, for burning in lamps). The tax
> man, however, may cause problems in that case.

My understanding is that Jet-A won't get goopy at low temperatures like diesel, and it doesn't cause performance problems that would make it unsafe for a jet airplane. I understand that they are close cousins, but you don't want to put diesel in your jet. I never put it my jet. Pfffff.

-- Jay Beattie.

jbeattie <jbeattie57@msn.com> writes:

> On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 12:54:59 PM UTC-7, Radey Shouman wrote:
>> jbeattie <jbeat...@msn.com> writes:
>>
>> > On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 7:38:07 AM UTC-7, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> >> On Sunday, October 3, 2021 at 6:56:29 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
>> >> > On Sun, 3 Oct 2021 19:22:20 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> >> > <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > >On 10/3/2021 6:41 PM, John B. wrote:
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> Really off the subject but what is this "coal-roll" that they talk
>> >> > >> about? On one of the reports of the accident it shows what appears to
>> >> > >> be a great cloud of black smoke but I've driven a diesel pickup for
>> >> > >> years and never seen anything like that.
>> >> > >
>> >> > >"Rolling Coal" is a purposely obnoxious tactic of certain owners of
>> >> > >pickup trucks. The typical culprit has a relatively new pickup powered
>> >> > >by a diesel engine, and very often sporting oversized wheels and very
>> >> > >knobby tires. Also typical are various window decals or bumper stickers
>> >> > >attesting to the manliness of the driver or the inferiority of other
>> >> > >models of trucks, etc. American flags are not uncommon on the trucks,
>> >> > >except in the southern U.S. where confederate flags dominate. (Down
>> >> > >there a gun rack will also be visible through the truck's back window.)
>> >> > >
>> >> > >These trucks are deliberately modified to emit absolutely opaque clouds
>> >> > >of diesel exhaust on demand. Bicyclists are common targets, but so are
>> >> > >cars that indicate a philosophy the asshole driver doesn't like. Toyota
>> >> > >Priuses are targets because they tend to be bought by people who value
>> >> > >efficiency and/or the environment.
>> >> > >
>> >> > >These asshole pickup drivers have other favored obnoxious behaviors. Of
>> >> > >course, blaring super-loud music is fun for them. So is mercilessly
>> >> > >tailgating other vehicles. Some have been known to purposely park in a
>> >> > >way to block electric vehicle charging stations. And I've had them
>> >> > >deliberately try to blind me with their auxiliary mega-lumen
>> >> > > light bars.
>> >> > >
>> >> > >Of course, "rolling coal" is illegal, but it's very hard to prosecute.
>> >> > >It's a behavior of a thuggish sub-culture with all the symptoms of a
>> >> > >very low average IQ.
>> >> > I hear you talking but I still don't understand how it is done. A
>> >> > diesel engine accelerates by injecting more fuel then required at a
>> >> > given RPM and thus developing more power and increasing RPM and
>> >> > certainly if you jam the throttle open at low RPM and diesel powered
>> >> > engine will "smoke" but not to the extent it showed.
>> >> >
>> >> > But all this derogator talk about Red Necks and Pickup Drivers. And
>> >> > here you were going on about how bad prejudice attitudes are, just the
>> >> > other day. (:-)
>> >> As much as it pains me, you are quite correct John. It is not "coal
>> >> rolling" but COLD rolling. As you know, diesels run rich when they
>> >> are not up to running temperature so the sorts of drivers that buy
>> >> diesel pickups, usually 4 wheel drive and with oversized wheels and
>> >> snow tires on them are in crowds, they can stomp on the accelerator
>> >> and produce tons of diesel smoke. Unlike Weeks experience I have not
>> >> seen that it has anything at all to do with "protestors" or people
>> >> riding bikes but rather anyone that is in their way and going slower
>> >> than they wish to go. But I suppose that you can invent almost any
>> >> reason for anything. There are no "switches" to somehow cause this
>> >> and after the engine warms up it produced only the normal amount of
>> >> diesel smoke which I suppose looks offensive to people who desire
>> >> Tesla electric cars.
>> >
>> > No, its "rolling coal" or "coal rolling" -- and yes, it does require
>> > modification of the engine/fuel
>> > system. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_coal
>> > https://auto.howstuffworks.com/coal-rollers.htm
>> > https://www.truckofmine.com/how-to-make-your-truck-roll-coal/ I
>> > suppose you could get a badly tuned diesel to belch smoke, but coal
>> > rolling as some asshole-artform requires engine modifications.
>> >
>> > And no, modern jets do not burn diesel. They burn jet fuel, which is
>> > a kerosene blend.
>> Diesel, kerosene, and jet A are all pretty similar in composition and
>> properties. Specifications (eg cloud point), dye, and tax regimes are
>> different. Diesel cars will happily burn kerosene, and smell better too
>> (kerosene is required to smell nice, for burning in lamps). The tax
>> man, however, may cause problems in that case.
>
> My understanding is that Jet-A won't get goopy at low temperatures
> like diesel, and it doesn't cause performance problems that would make
> it unsafe for a jet airplane. I understand that they are close
> cousins, but you don't want to put diesel in your jet. I never put it
> my jet. Pfffff.

That's what "cloud point" means. The temperature at which a hydrocarbon
will, as the API might say "get goopy".

On Tue, 5 Oct 2021 07:38:04 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, October 3, 2021 at 6:56:29 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
>> On Sun, 3 Oct 2021 19:22:20 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>> >On 10/3/2021 6:41 PM, John B. wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Really off the subject but what is this "coal-roll" that they talk
>> >> about? On one of the reports of the accident it shows what appears to
>> >> be a great cloud of black smoke but I've driven a diesel pickup for
>> >> years and never seen anything like that.
>> >
>> >"Rolling Coal" is a purposely obnoxious tactic of certain owners of
>> >pickup trucks. The typical culprit has a relatively new pickup powered
>> >by a diesel engine, and very often sporting oversized wheels and very
>> >knobby tires. Also typical are various window decals or bumper stickers
>> >attesting to the manliness of the driver or the inferiority of other
>> >models of trucks, etc. American flags are not uncommon on the trucks,
>> >except in the southern U.S. where confederate flags dominate. (Down
>> >there a gun rack will also be visible through the truck's back window.)
>> >
>> >These trucks are deliberately modified to emit absolutely opaque clouds
>> >of diesel exhaust on demand. Bicyclists are common targets, but so are
>> >cars that indicate a philosophy the asshole driver doesn't like. Toyota
>> >Priuses are targets because they tend to be bought by people who value
>> >efficiency and/or the environment.
>> >
>> >These asshole pickup drivers have other favored obnoxious behaviors. Of
>> >course, blaring super-loud music is fun for them. So is mercilessly
>> >tailgating other vehicles. Some have been known to purposely park in a
>> >way to block electric vehicle charging stations. And I've had them
>> >deliberately try to blind me with their auxiliary mega-lumen light bars.
>> >
>> >Of course, "rolling coal" is illegal, but it's very hard to prosecute.
>> >It's a behavior of a thuggish sub-culture with all the symptoms of a
>> >very low average IQ.
>> I hear you talking but I still don't understand how it is done. A
>> diesel engine accelerates by injecting more fuel then required at a
>> given RPM and thus developing more power and increasing RPM and
>> certainly if you jam the throttle open at low RPM and diesel powered
>> engine will "smoke" but not to the extent it showed.
>>
>> But all this derogator talk about Red Necks and Pickup Drivers. And
>> here you were going on about how bad prejudice attitudes are, just the
>> other day. (:-)
>
>As much as it pains me, you are quite correct John. It is not "coal rolling" but COLD rolling. As you know, diesels run rich when they are not up to running temperature so the sorts of drivers that buy diesel pickups, usually 4 wheel drive and with oversized wheels and snow tires on them are in crowds, they can stomp on the accelerator and produce tons of diesel smoke. Unlike Weeks experience I have not seen that it has anything at all to do with "protestors" or people riding bikes but rather anyone that is in their way and going slower than they wish to go. But I suppose that you can invent almost any reason for anything. There are no "switches" to somehow cause this and after the engine warms up it produced only the normal amount of diesel smoke which I suppose looks offensive to people who desire Tesla electric cars.

No Tommy, that isn't exactly true, or at least it isn't true to with
diesel engines with individual injection pumps for each cylinder and I
suspect with the single pump system. But a diesel engine isn't
controlled by metering the air flow into the engine but rather by
metering the fuel flow into the engine and thus for the engine to
increase RPM the amount of fuel injected for each power stroke has to
be increased and so diesel engines do run "rich" and this smoke during
acceleration.

In fact some Caterpillar earth moving equipment was, at one time,
equipped with an anti smoke device that simply limited the rate of
increase in fuel during acceleration which limited the amount of fuel
injected which limited the rate of acceleration and smoke generated.
The Operators detested them and so we used to bypass them.

But, I'm not sure just how one can make a diesel engine smoke to the
extent that I see on the Internet as simply increasing the fuel flow
into the engine causes it to increase RPM and from the stories I read
the smoke producing is done at low speeds so simply "changing the
chip" isn't going to do it. I suspect that the "secret" may be, as
Jeff mentioned, some how injecting fuel or oil into the exhaust system
down stream of the engine.

I'll nose around the Web as certainly someone has to be divulging the
secrets of the universe somewhere.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Tue, 05 Oct 2021 15:59:59 -0400, Radey Shouman
<shouman@comcast.net> wrote:

>"funkma...@hotmail.com" <funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>> On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 12:54:26 PM UTC-4,
>> russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 11:45:19 AM UTC-5,
>>> funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>> > They are both kerosene based, but it wouldn't be wise to try
>>> > substituting one for the other. He's likely confused about diesel
>>> > vs home heating oil. Those are in fact interchangeable, though
>>> > they are formulated slightly differently such that switching them
>>> > isn't recommended. Still there is enough similarity that the feds
>>> > require red dye in home heating oil because it's taxed at a lower
>>> > rate. The company I work for manufactures a full line of home heat
>>> > oil storage and dispensing hardware.
>>> Diesel sold for tractors, NOT trucks, is also dyed red and has lower
>>> taxes, cheaper price. You will be fined if you put the cheaper
>>> tractor diesel into a truck.
>>
>> True, And you'd get fined for running home heating oil in a "highway
>> vehicle" as well, but you can run either in a diesel farm
>> vehicle. Still, there is a slighty different formulation such that
>> trying to run home heating oil even in a farm tractor could be a
>> problem on a cold winter day.
>
>Back when I worked in a refinery there was a difference between summer
>diesel and winter diesel. Winter diesel required a lower cloud point.
>Similarly there was a difference between summer gasoline and winter
>gasoline. Summer gasoline required a lower vapor pressure. Not sure if
>that's still true, but I wouldn't be surprised.

You must come from some northern place as diesel fuel and gasoline
made in Indonesia is the same all year 'round (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 10/5/2021 2:01 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 10/5/2021 10:44 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 10/5/2021 10:39 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> On Sunday, October 3, 2021 at 11:01:01 PM UTC-7, John B.
>>> wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 3 Oct 2021 20:10:04 -0700 (PDT),
>>>> "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Sunday, October 3, 2021 at 8:56:29 PM UTC-5, John B.
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But all this derogator talk about Red Necks and Pickup
>>>>>> Drivers. And
>>>>>> here you were going on about how bad prejudice
>>>>>> attitudes are, just the
>>>>>> other day. (:-)
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> John B.
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. A diesel engine is required to do this roll smoke
>>>>> thing. As you well know, diesel isn't too refined from
>>>>> raw oil. And produces copious smoke when burned.
>>>>> Gasoline is highly refined and just makes fire and an
>>>>> explosion when you light it.
>>>>> 2. The only vehicles in USA that use diesel engines are
>>>>> 1. tractors 2. semi trucks 3. pick up trucks. USA uses
>>>>> gasoline cars and trucks almost exclusively. Unlike
>>>>> Europe where diesel cars are very common. I do not know
>>>>> about the rest of the world, how prevalent diesel
>>>>> vehicles are.
>>>>> 3. The red neck part may be prejudiced. Since in USA
>>>>> almost everyone it seems drives a pick up truck. Middle
>>>>> aged woman with two kids in school going to the grocery
>>>>> store may drive her $80,000 luxury four door 4x4 pick up
>>>>> truck. 50 years ago only farmers and construction
>>>>> workers drove pick up trucks. Pick up trucks were work
>>>>> vehicles. Now pick up trucks are luxury vehicles to brag
>>>>> to the world how expensive a vehicle you can buy.
>>>> Come now, gasoline explodes when you light it? You'll
>>>> have to do
>>>> better then that (:-)
>>>> It's been so long since I was in the U.S. that I don't
>>>> have a clue
>>>> what is the popular fuel there. Here, Thailand, I'm not
>>>> sure that I've
>>>> seen a diesel automobile, as you say, farm machinery,
>>>> heavy trucks and
>>>> pickups.
>>>>
>>>> Of course the red neck stuff is prejudice. I was poking
>>>> Frank in the
>>>> ribs a bit as he had gone on at some length a day or so
>>>> ago basically
>>>> arguing that prejudice toward some minority or another
>>>> was just so
>>>> unfair and now he is deigning another group.
>>>>
>>>> I might add that I lived for a number of years in the
>>>> "deep south",
>>>> Florida, Alabama, Georgia and Louisiana, so I'm sort of
>>>> familiar with
>>>> the folks there.
>>>
>>> Some people are unaware that diesel fuel is the same thing
>>> they put in jet aircraft.
>>
>> Wow.
>>
>> It seems the people who manufacture that stuff are among
>> those who are "unaware" - or rather, among those who
>> disagree strongly with Tom.
>>
>> https://www.bp.com/en/global/air-bp/news-and-views/views/ever-wondered-what-the-difference-is-between-jet-fuel-and-diesel.html
>>
>>
>>
>> Again, Tom must stay up at night thinking of new ways to be
>> wrong.
>>
>>
>
> Strictly, yes, jet fuel is different from diesel motor vehicle fuel:
>
> https://itstillruns.com/difference-jet-fuel-diesel-fuel-5808896.html

Thank you.

Note that nobody said they weren't similar. My point is they are not
"the same thing" as Tom claims.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 10/5/2021 5:42 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Tue, 5 Oct 2021 07:38:04 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sunday, October 3, 2021 at 6:56:29 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
>>> On Sun, 3 Oct 2021 19:22:20 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 10/3/2021 6:41 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Really off the subject but what is this "coal-roll" that they talk
>>>>> about? On one of the reports of the accident it shows what appears to
>>>>> be a great cloud of black smoke but I've driven a diesel pickup for
>>>>> years and never seen anything like that.
>>>>
>>>> "Rolling Coal" is a purposely obnoxious tactic of certain owners of
>>>> pickup trucks. The typical culprit has a relatively new pickup powered
>>>> by a diesel engine, and very often sporting oversized wheels and very
>>>> knobby tires. Also typical are various window decals or bumper stickers
>>>> attesting to the manliness of the driver or the inferiority of other
>>>> models of trucks, etc. American flags are not uncommon on the trucks,
>>>> except in the southern U.S. where confederate flags dominate. (Down
>>>> there a gun rack will also be visible through the truck's back window.)
>>>>
>>>> These trucks are deliberately modified to emit absolutely opaque clouds
>>>> of diesel exhaust on demand. Bicyclists are common targets, but so are
>>>> cars that indicate a philosophy the asshole driver doesn't like. Toyota
>>>> Priuses are targets because they tend to be bought by people who value
>>>> efficiency and/or the environment.
>>>>
>>>> These asshole pickup drivers have other favored obnoxious behaviors. Of
>>>> course, blaring super-loud music is fun for them. So is mercilessly
>>>> tailgating other vehicles. Some have been known to purposely park in a
>>>> way to block electric vehicle charging stations. And I've had them
>>>> deliberately try to blind me with their auxiliary mega-lumen light bars.
>>>>
>>>> Of course, "rolling coal" is illegal, but it's very hard to prosecute.
>>>> It's a behavior of a thuggish sub-culture with all the symptoms of a
>>>> very low average IQ.
>>> I hear you talking but I still don't understand how it is done. A
>>> diesel engine accelerates by injecting more fuel then required at a
>>> given RPM and thus developing more power and increasing RPM and
>>> certainly if you jam the throttle open at low RPM and diesel powered
>>> engine will "smoke" but not to the extent it showed.
>>>
>>> But all this derogator talk about Red Necks and Pickup Drivers. And
>>> here you were going on about how bad prejudice attitudes are, just the
>>> other day. (:-)
>>
>> As much as it pains me, you are quite correct John. It is not "coal rolling" but COLD rolling. As you know, diesels run rich when they are not up to running temperature so the sorts of drivers that buy diesel pickups, usually 4 wheel drive and with oversized wheels and snow tires on them are in crowds, they can stomp on the accelerator and produce tons of diesel smoke. Unlike Weeks experience I have not seen that it has anything at all to do with "protestors" or people riding bikes but rather anyone that is in their way and going slower than they wish to go. But I suppose that you can invent almost any reason for anything. There are no "switches" to somehow cause this and after the engine warms up it produced only the normal amount of diesel smoke which I suppose looks offensive to people who desire Tesla electric cars.
>
> No Tommy, that isn't exactly true, or at least it isn't true to with
> diesel engines with individual injection pumps for each cylinder and I
> suspect with the single pump system. But a diesel engine isn't
> controlled by metering the air flow into the engine but rather by
> metering the fuel flow into the engine and thus for the engine to
> increase RPM the amount of fuel injected for each power stroke has to
> be increased and so diesel engines do run "rich" and this smoke during
> acceleration.
>
> In fact some Caterpillar earth moving equipment was, at one time,
> equipped with an anti smoke device that simply limited the rate of
> increase in fuel during acceleration which limited the amount of fuel
> injected which limited the rate of acceleration and smoke generated.
> The Operators detested them and so we used to bypass them.
>
> But, I'm not sure just how one can make a diesel engine smoke to the
> extent that I see on the Internet as simply increasing the fuel flow
> into the engine causes it to increase RPM and from the stories I read
> the smoke producing is done at low speeds so simply "changing the
> chip" isn't going to do it. I suspect that the "secret" may be, as
> Jeff mentioned, some how injecting fuel or oil into the exhaust system
> down stream of the engine.
>
> I'll nose around the Web as certainly someone has to be divulging the
> secrets of the universe somewhere.
>

I'm not an expert but doesn't a diesel accelerate with more
throttle, as long as the fuel and air are in proper
proportion? That's how diesel governors were explained to me.

As I understand it the smoker feature overrides normal
injector times to give a fuel-rich mixture. I could be wrong.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 10/5/2021 6:21 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Tue, 05 Oct 2021 15:59:59 -0400, Radey Shouman
> <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> "funkma...@hotmail.com" <funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 12:54:26 PM UTC-4,
>>> russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>> On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 11:45:19 AM UTC-5,
>>>> funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>>> They are both kerosene based, but it wouldn't be wise to try
>>>>> substituting one for the other. He's likely confused about diesel
>>>>> vs home heating oil. Those are in fact interchangeable, though
>>>>> they are formulated slightly differently such that switching them
>>>>> isn't recommended. Still there is enough similarity that the feds
>>>>> require red dye in home heating oil because it's taxed at a lower
>>>>> rate. The company I work for manufactures a full line of home heat
>>>>> oil storage and dispensing hardware.
>>>> Diesel sold for tractors, NOT trucks, is also dyed red and has lower
>>>> taxes, cheaper price. You will be fined if you put the cheaper
>>>> tractor diesel into a truck.
>>>
>>> True, And you'd get fined for running home heating oil in a "highway
>>> vehicle" as well, but you can run either in a diesel farm
>>> vehicle. Still, there is a slighty different formulation such that
>>> trying to run home heating oil even in a farm tractor could be a
>>> problem on a cold winter day.
>>
>> Back when I worked in a refinery there was a difference between summer
>> diesel and winter diesel. Winter diesel required a lower cloud point.
>> Similarly there was a difference between summer gasoline and winter
>> gasoline. Summer gasoline required a lower vapor pressure. Not sure if
>> that's still true, but I wouldn't be surprised.
>
> You must come from some northern place as diesel fuel and gasoline
> made in Indonesia is the same all year 'round (:-)
>

When I was young, diesels in Wisconsin needed tank heaters
so the fuel would not gel overnight. Not sure if that's
different now.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 10/5/2021 8:05 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>
> I'm not an expert but doesn't a diesel accelerate with more throttle, as
> long as the fuel and air are in proper proportion?

Well, "proper proportion" is way, way different than what happens in a
gasoline engine. The diesel's fuel-air ratio varies tremendously.

A diesel engine runs at a much higher compression ratio than a gasoline
engine. Normally, the intake air is compressed so much that it is hot
enough to burn the diesel fuel without any help from a spark plug.

When a diesel piston is near top dead center (when a gas engine's spark
plug would fire) a diesel engine squirts fuel into the super hot
compressed air. That fuel burns immediately.

Here's the important part: When you ask a diesel engine for more power,
the fuel injection system injects more fuel. If you want less power, it
injects less fuel. The fuel to air ratio varies widely in order to
control the power produced. There really isn't a fixed or "proper"
proportion.

This is way different than a gasoline engine. Whether making low power
or high power, a gasoline engine maintains about the same fuel-air ratio
(about 14 to 1). Too lean runs risk of knock damage. Too rich fouls
plugs and valves. Power is varied by either restricting or increasing
the amount of the fuel-in-air fog allowed to enter.

More diesel fuel input gives more power up to extreme levels of
richness. But too extreme richness produces unburned fuel, so lots of
black smoke.

> As I understand it the smoker feature overrides normal injector times to
> give a fuel-rich mixture. I could be wrong.

That's how I understand it too.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Tue, 05 Oct 2021 19:05:32 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 10/5/2021 5:42 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Tue, 5 Oct 2021 07:38:04 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>> <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sunday, October 3, 2021 at 6:56:29 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 3 Oct 2021 19:22:20 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 10/3/2021 6:41 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Really off the subject but what is this "coal-roll" that they talk
>>>>>> about? On one of the reports of the accident it shows what appears to
>>>>>> be a great cloud of black smoke but I've driven a diesel pickup for
>>>>>> years and never seen anything like that.
>>>>>
>>>>> "Rolling Coal" is a purposely obnoxious tactic of certain owners of
>>>>> pickup trucks. The typical culprit has a relatively new pickup powered
>>>>> by a diesel engine, and very often sporting oversized wheels and very
>>>>> knobby tires. Also typical are various window decals or bumper stickers
>>>>> attesting to the manliness of the driver or the inferiority of other
>>>>> models of trucks, etc. American flags are not uncommon on the trucks,
>>>>> except in the southern U.S. where confederate flags dominate. (Down
>>>>> there a gun rack will also be visible through the truck's back window.)
>>>>>
>>>>> These trucks are deliberately modified to emit absolutely opaque clouds
>>>>> of diesel exhaust on demand. Bicyclists are common targets, but so are
>>>>> cars that indicate a philosophy the asshole driver doesn't like. Toyota
>>>>> Priuses are targets because they tend to be bought by people who value
>>>>> efficiency and/or the environment.
>>>>>
>>>>> These asshole pickup drivers have other favored obnoxious behaviors. Of
>>>>> course, blaring super-loud music is fun for them. So is mercilessly
>>>>> tailgating other vehicles. Some have been known to purposely park in a
>>>>> way to block electric vehicle charging stations. And I've had them
>>>>> deliberately try to blind me with their auxiliary mega-lumen light bars.
>>>>>
>>>>> Of course, "rolling coal" is illegal, but it's very hard to prosecute.
>>>>> It's a behavior of a thuggish sub-culture with all the symptoms of a
>>>>> very low average IQ.
>>>> I hear you talking but I still don't understand how it is done. A
>>>> diesel engine accelerates by injecting more fuel then required at a
>>>> given RPM and thus developing more power and increasing RPM and
>>>> certainly if you jam the throttle open at low RPM and diesel powered
>>>> engine will "smoke" but not to the extent it showed.
>>>>
>>>> But all this derogator talk about Red Necks and Pickup Drivers. And
>>>> here you were going on about how bad prejudice attitudes are, just the
>>>> other day. (:-)
>>>
>>> As much as it pains me, you are quite correct John. It is not "coal rolling" but COLD rolling. As you know, diesels run rich when they are not up to running temperature so the sorts of drivers that buy diesel pickups, usually 4 wheel drive and with oversized wheels and snow tires on them are in crowds, they can stomp on the accelerator and produce tons of diesel smoke. Unlike Weeks experience I have not seen that it has anything at all to do with "protestors" or people riding bikes but rather anyone that is in their way and going slower than they wish to go. But I suppose that you can invent almost any reason for anything. There are no "switches" to somehow cause this and after the engine warms up it produced only the normal amount of diesel smoke which I suppose looks offensive to people who desire Tesla electric cars.
>>
>> No Tommy, that isn't exactly true, or at least it isn't true to with
>> diesel engines with individual injection pumps for each cylinder and I
>> suspect with the single pump system. But a diesel engine isn't
>> controlled by metering the air flow into the engine but rather by
>> metering the fuel flow into the engine and thus for the engine to
>> increase RPM the amount of fuel injected for each power stroke has to
>> be increased and so diesel engines do run "rich" and this smoke during
>> acceleration.
>>
>> In fact some Caterpillar earth moving equipment was, at one time,
>> equipped with an anti smoke device that simply limited the rate of
>> increase in fuel during acceleration which limited the amount of fuel
>> injected which limited the rate of acceleration and smoke generated.
>> The Operators detested them and so we used to bypass them.
>>
>> But, I'm not sure just how one can make a diesel engine smoke to the
>> extent that I see on the Internet as simply increasing the fuel flow
>> into the engine causes it to increase RPM and from the stories I read
>> the smoke producing is done at low speeds so simply "changing the
>> chip" isn't going to do it. I suspect that the "secret" may be, as
>> Jeff mentioned, some how injecting fuel or oil into the exhaust system
>> down stream of the engine.
>>
>> I'll nose around the Web as certainly someone has to be divulging the
>> secrets of the universe somewhere.
>>
>
>I'm not an expert but doesn't a diesel accelerate with more
>throttle, as long as the fuel and air are in proper
>proportion? That's how diesel governors were explained to me.

Well, sort of. Basically a diesel engine has a wide open intake system
and air intake is a constant, determined by cylinder displacement and
RPM, so engine power is determined by the amount of fuel that is
injected into each cylinder, but an air fuel ratio below a certain
level won't ignite. Fuel/air ratios for a diesel can be in the range
of something like 36:1 to 75:1 if lightly loaded and 18:1 and 24:1 if
loaded. I read that most railroad engines run about 20:1.

Generally speaking a diesel governor maintains the required rpm by
altering the amount of fuel injected depending on the "throttle
setting" required. A simple governor can be just a flyweight operated
valve driven by the engine, measuring rpm, opposed by a spring
controlled by the throttle. Throttle closed, spring presses flyweight
down this closing the fuel valve, throttle open spring pressure
relieved, flyweight up opening fuel valve. Spring pressure and
flyweight pressure equal, stable rpm.

Note:
Air is measured in weight generally measured in grams.
Fuel is normally measured in volume (millilitres)

>As I understand it the smoker feature overrides normal
>injector times to give a fuel-rich mixture. I could be wrong.

Yes, and heavy trucks occasionally do that deliberately. Coasting down
a slight hill with, say a 40 ton load up, throttle closed and engine
compression holding the speed constant. Just feather the throttle a
bit, not enough to go faster but a bit more fuel injected and you get
smoke. Another alternative is to start off in too high a gear and jam
the throttle to the floor or to climb hills in too high a gear.

But, I've never seen the billowing clouds of smoke that I see on the
Internet.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Tue, 05 Oct 2021 19:06:51 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 10/5/2021 6:21 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Tue, 05 Oct 2021 15:59:59 -0400, Radey Shouman
>> <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>> "funkma...@hotmail.com" <funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 12:54:26 PM UTC-4,
>>>> russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>> On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 11:45:19 AM UTC-5,
>>>>> funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>>>> They are both kerosene based, but it wouldn't be wise to try
>>>>>> substituting one for the other. He's likely confused about diesel
>>>>>> vs home heating oil. Those are in fact interchangeable, though
>>>>>> they are formulated slightly differently such that switching them
>>>>>> isn't recommended. Still there is enough similarity that the feds
>>>>>> require red dye in home heating oil because it's taxed at a lower
>>>>>> rate. The company I work for manufactures a full line of home heat
>>>>>> oil storage and dispensing hardware.
>>>>> Diesel sold for tractors, NOT trucks, is also dyed red and has lower
>>>>> taxes, cheaper price. You will be fined if you put the cheaper
>>>>> tractor diesel into a truck.
>>>>
>>>> True, And you'd get fined for running home heating oil in a "highway
>>>> vehicle" as well, but you can run either in a diesel farm
>>>> vehicle. Still, there is a slighty different formulation such that
>>>> trying to run home heating oil even in a farm tractor could be a
>>>> problem on a cold winter day.
>>>
>>> Back when I worked in a refinery there was a difference between summer
>>> diesel and winter diesel. Winter diesel required a lower cloud point.
>>> Similarly there was a difference between summer gasoline and winter
>>> gasoline. Summer gasoline required a lower vapor pressure. Not sure if
>>> that's still true, but I wouldn't be surprised.
>>
>> You must come from some northern place as diesel fuel and gasoline
>> made in Indonesia is the same all year 'round (:-)
>>
>
>When I was young, diesels in Wisconsin needed tank heaters
>so the fuel would not gel overnight. Not sure if that's
>different now.

When I was in Bangor, Maine, you had to have a heat tape on the
kerosene line to the space heater so that your stove didn't go out on
cold nights.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 3:46:28 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 12:54:59 PM UTC-7, Radey Shouman wrote:
> > jbeattie <jbeat...@msn.com> writes:
> >
> > > On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 7:38:07 AM UTC-7, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >> On Sunday, October 3, 2021 at 6:56:29 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
> > >> > On Sun, 3 Oct 2021 19:22:20 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> > >> > <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> > >On 10/3/2021 6:41 PM, John B. wrote:
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >> Really off the subject but what is this "coal-roll" that they talk
> > >> > >> about? On one of the reports of the accident it shows what appears to
> > >> > >> be a great cloud of black smoke but I've driven a diesel pickup for
> > >> > >> years and never seen anything like that.
> > >> > >
> > >> > >"Rolling Coal" is a purposely obnoxious tactic of certain owners of
> > >> > >pickup trucks. The typical culprit has a relatively new pickup powered
> > >> > >by a diesel engine, and very often sporting oversized wheels and very
> > >> > >knobby tires. Also typical are various window decals or bumper stickers
> > >> > >attesting to the manliness of the driver or the inferiority of other
> > >> > >models of trucks, etc. American flags are not uncommon on the trucks,
> > >> > >except in the southern U.S. where confederate flags dominate. (Down
> > >> > >there a gun rack will also be visible through the truck's back window.)
> > >> > >
> > >> > >These trucks are deliberately modified to emit absolutely opaque clouds
> > >> > >of diesel exhaust on demand. Bicyclists are common targets, but so are
> > >> > >cars that indicate a philosophy the asshole driver doesn't like. Toyota
> > >> > >Priuses are targets because they tend to be bought by people who value
> > >> > >efficiency and/or the environment.
> > >> > >
> > >> > >These asshole pickup drivers have other favored obnoxious behaviors. Of
> > >> > >course, blaring super-loud music is fun for them. So is mercilessly
> > >> > >tailgating other vehicles. Some have been known to purposely park in a
> > >> > >way to block electric vehicle charging stations. And I've had them
> > >> > >deliberately try to blind me with their auxiliary mega-lumen light bars.
> > >> > >
> > >> > >Of course, "rolling coal" is illegal, but it's very hard to prosecute.
> > >> > >It's a behavior of a thuggish sub-culture with all the symptoms of a
> > >> > >very low average IQ.
> > >> > I hear you talking but I still don't understand how it is done. A
> > >> > diesel engine accelerates by injecting more fuel then required at a
> > >> > given RPM and thus developing more power and increasing RPM and
> > >> > certainly if you jam the throttle open at low RPM and diesel powered
> > >> > engine will "smoke" but not to the extent it showed.
> > >> >
> > >> > But all this derogator talk about Red Necks and Pickup Drivers. And
> > >> > here you were going on about how bad prejudice attitudes are, just the
> > >> > other day. (:-)
> > >> As much as it pains me, you are quite correct John. It is not "coal
> > >> rolling" but COLD rolling. As you know, diesels run rich when they
> > >> are not up to running temperature so the sorts of drivers that buy
> > >> diesel pickups, usually 4 wheel drive and with oversized wheels and
> > >> snow tires on them are in crowds, they can stomp on the accelerator
> > >> and produce tons of diesel smoke. Unlike Weeks experience I have not
> > >> seen that it has anything at all to do with "protestors" or people
> > >> riding bikes but rather anyone that is in their way and going slower
> > >> than they wish to go. But I suppose that you can invent almost any
> > >> reason for anything. There are no "switches" to somehow cause this
> > >> and after the engine warms up it produced only the normal amount of
> > >> diesel smoke which I suppose looks offensive to people who desire
> > >> Tesla electric cars.
> > >
> > > No, its "rolling coal" or "coal rolling" -- and yes, it does require
> > > modification of the engine/fuel
> > > system. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_coal
> > > https://auto.howstuffworks.com/coal-rollers.htm
> > > https://www.truckofmine.com/how-to-make-your-truck-roll-coal/ I
> > > suppose you could get a badly tuned diesel to belch smoke, but coal
> > > rolling as some asshole-artform requires engine modifications.
> > >
> > > And no, modern jets do not burn diesel. They burn jet fuel, which is
> > > a kerosene blend.
> > Diesel, kerosene, and jet A are all pretty similar in composition and
> > properties. Specifications (eg cloud point), dye, and tax regimes are
> > different. Diesel cars will happily burn kerosene, and smell better too
> > (kerosene is required to smell nice, for burning in lamps). The tax
> > man, however, may cause problems in that case.
> My understanding is that Jet-A won't get goopy at low temperatures like diesel, and it doesn't cause performance problems that would make it unsafe for a jet airplane. I understand that they are close cousins, but you don't want to put diesel in your jet. I never put it my jet. Pfffff.
>
> -- Jay Beattie.

Sounds like the interchangeability of the diesel and heating oil and kerosene is similar to rifle shells. Specifically the .223 Remington and 5.56mm NATO shells. A .223 rifle should not be fed 5.56 ammo. Bad things could happen. But a 5.56 rifle will handle either shell just fine.

On 10/5/2021 9:51 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 3:46:28 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
>> On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 12:54:59 PM UTC-7, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>> jbeattie <jbeat...@msn.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 7:38:07 AM UTC-7, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>> On Sunday, October 3, 2021 at 6:56:29 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
>>>>>> On Sun, 3 Oct 2021 19:22:20 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 10/3/2021 6:41 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Really off the subject but what is this "coal-roll" that they talk
>>>>>>>> about? On one of the reports of the accident it shows what appears to
>>>>>>>> be a great cloud of black smoke but I've driven a diesel pickup for
>>>>>>>> years and never seen anything like that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Rolling Coal" is a purposely obnoxious tactic of certain owners of
>>>>>>> pickup trucks. The typical culprit has a relatively new pickup powered
>>>>>>> by a diesel engine, and very often sporting oversized wheels and very
>>>>>>> knobby tires. Also typical are various window decals or bumper stickers
>>>>>>> attesting to the manliness of the driver or the inferiority of other
>>>>>>> models of trucks, etc. American flags are not uncommon on the trucks,
>>>>>>> except in the southern U.S. where confederate flags dominate. (Down
>>>>>>> there a gun rack will also be visible through the truck's back window.)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> These trucks are deliberately modified to emit absolutely opaque clouds
>>>>>>> of diesel exhaust on demand. Bicyclists are common targets, but so are
>>>>>>> cars that indicate a philosophy the asshole driver doesn't like. Toyota
>>>>>>> Priuses are targets because they tend to be bought by people who value
>>>>>>> efficiency and/or the environment.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> These asshole pickup drivers have other favored obnoxious behaviors. Of
>>>>>>> course, blaring super-loud music is fun for them. So is mercilessly
>>>>>>> tailgating other vehicles. Some have been known to purposely park in a
>>>>>>> way to block electric vehicle charging stations. And I've had them
>>>>>>> deliberately try to blind me with their auxiliary mega-lumen light bars.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Of course, "rolling coal" is illegal, but it's very hard to prosecute.
>>>>>>> It's a behavior of a thuggish sub-culture with all the symptoms of a
>>>>>>> very low average IQ.
>>>>>> I hear you talking but I still don't understand how it is done. A
>>>>>> diesel engine accelerates by injecting more fuel then required at a
>>>>>> given RPM and thus developing more power and increasing RPM and
>>>>>> certainly if you jam the throttle open at low RPM and diesel powered
>>>>>> engine will "smoke" but not to the extent it showed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But all this derogator talk about Red Necks and Pickup Drivers. And
>>>>>> here you were going on about how bad prejudice attitudes are, just the
>>>>>> other day. (:-)
>>>>> As much as it pains me, you are quite correct John. It is not "coal
>>>>> rolling" but COLD rolling. As you know, diesels run rich when they
>>>>> are not up to running temperature so the sorts of drivers that buy
>>>>> diesel pickups, usually 4 wheel drive and with oversized wheels and
>>>>> snow tires on them are in crowds, they can stomp on the accelerator
>>>>> and produce tons of diesel smoke. Unlike Weeks experience I have not
>>>>> seen that it has anything at all to do with "protestors" or people
>>>>> riding bikes but rather anyone that is in their way and going slower
>>>>> than they wish to go. But I suppose that you can invent almost any
>>>>> reason for anything. There are no "switches" to somehow cause this
>>>>> and after the engine warms up it produced only the normal amount of
>>>>> diesel smoke which I suppose looks offensive to people who desire
>>>>> Tesla electric cars.
>>>>
>>>> No, its "rolling coal" or "coal rolling" -- and yes, it does require
>>>> modification of the engine/fuel
>>>> system. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_coal
>>>> https://auto.howstuffworks.com/coal-rollers.htm
>>>> https://www.truckofmine.com/how-to-make-your-truck-roll-coal/ I
>>>> suppose you could get a badly tuned diesel to belch smoke, but coal
>>>> rolling as some asshole-artform requires engine modifications.
>>>>
>>>> And no, modern jets do not burn diesel. They burn jet fuel, which is
>>>> a kerosene blend.
>>> Diesel, kerosene, and jet A are all pretty similar in composition and
>>> properties. Specifications (eg cloud point), dye, and tax regimes are
>>> different. Diesel cars will happily burn kerosene, and smell better too
>>> (kerosene is required to smell nice, for burning in lamps). The tax
>>> man, however, may cause problems in that case.
>> My understanding is that Jet-A won't get goopy at low temperatures like diesel, and it doesn't cause performance problems that would make it unsafe for a jet airplane. I understand that they are close cousins, but you don't want to put diesel in your jet. I never put it my jet. Pfffff.
>>
>> -- Jay Beattie.
>
> Sounds like the interchangeability of the diesel and heating oil and kerosene is similar to rifle shells. Specifically the .223 Remington and 5.56mm NATO shells. A .223 rifle should not be fed 5.56 ammo. Bad things could happen. But a 5.56 rifle will handle either shell just fine.
>

In theory your average 5.56 round will run about 60K psi in
a .223 rifle, designed for an average 58K psi .223 round.

Rifle chamber volumes from various vendors and various
brands/ submodels of ammunition are also not as uniform as
one might at first imagine. Much is written about this with
extensive data sets. So, yes you have a point, sorta.

In practice, I, and most people I know, shoot 5.56 because
it's more available and less expensive than .223, always
have. Disaster has not happened to me and reports of same
have not been reported.

I am an amateur. Here's an expert opinion:
https://www.henryusa.com/caliber/223-rem-5-56-nato/

"The differences between .223 Rem and 5.56 NATO are minute,
and they can usually be used interchangeably. Such is the
case with any of our firearms chambered for this caliber."

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> writes:

> On Tue, 05 Oct 2021 15:59:59 -0400, Radey Shouman
> <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>"funkma...@hotmail.com" <funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 12:54:26 PM UTC-4,
>>> russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>> On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 11:45:19 AM UTC-5,
>>>> funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>> > They are both kerosene based, but it wouldn't be wise to try
>>>> > substituting one for the other. He's likely confused about diesel
>>>> > vs home heating oil. Those are in fact interchangeable, though
>>>> > they are formulated slightly differently such that switching them
>>>> > isn't recommended. Still there is enough similarity that the feds
>>>> > require red dye in home heating oil because it's taxed at a lower
>>>> > rate. The company I work for manufactures a full line of home heat
>>>> > oil storage and dispensing hardware.
>>>> Diesel sold for tractors, NOT trucks, is also dyed red and has lower
>>>> taxes, cheaper price. You will be fined if you put the cheaper
>>>> tractor diesel into a truck.
>>>
>>> True, And you'd get fined for running home heating oil in a "highway
>>> vehicle" as well, but you can run either in a diesel farm
>>> vehicle. Still, there is a slighty different formulation such that
>>> trying to run home heating oil even in a farm tractor could be a
>>> problem on a cold winter day.
>>
>>Back when I worked in a refinery there was a difference between summer
>>diesel and winter diesel. Winter diesel required a lower cloud point.
>>Similarly there was a difference between summer gasoline and winter
>>gasoline. Summer gasoline required a lower vapor pressure. Not sure if
>>that's still true, but I wouldn't be surprised.
>
> You must come from some northern place as diesel fuel and gasoline
> made in Indonesia is the same all year 'round (:-)

The refinery was in eastern New Mexico. The original plans were bought
second hand. They were for a refinery built in Hawaii, in a location
where it doesn't ever freeze. I heard they put a lot of steam tracing
in that first miserable winter.

On Sunday, October 3, 2021 at 1:09:54 p.m. UTC-4, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 28, 2021 at 2:25:58 p.m. UTC-4, Leroy N. Soetoro wrote:
> > A 16-year-old driving a truck ran over six cyclists in Texas, sending four
> > to the hospital.
> >
> > One cyclist said the driver intentionally slowed down to blow smoke on the
> > cyclists.
> >
> > The driver, who stayed on the scene following the collisions, has not been
> > arrested, KRIV reported.
> >
> > Visit Insider's homepage for more stories.
> >
> > A teen truck driver in Texas ran over six cyclists on Saturday, sending
> > four of them to the hospital with non-life-threatening injuries.
> >
> > The cyclists riding along a highway in Houston when a black diesel pickup
> > truck intentionally slowed down and then accelerated in front of them to
> > blow exhaust on the cyclists, one of the riders said.
> >
> > "I thought someone was dead," cyclist Chase Ferrell said, according to
> > KRIV. "I heard a lot of crunching. I heard brakes. Tires screeching.
> > People screaming."
> >
> > KTRK reported that two of the cyclists were treated at a local hospital in
> > Waller County, and two others were airlifted to a Houston hospital to be
> > treated for head injuries. Two other cyclists refused treatment.
> >
> > Ferrell said the group was about 75 miles into their ride as they trained
> > for an ironman. After the truck blew exhaust on cyclists in Ferrell's
> > lane, the driver attempted to do the same maneuver on cyclists riding
> > ahead of Ferrell, the cyclist said, culminating in the collision.
> >
> > "The reason he couldn't stop is because he was accelerating to blow more
> > diesel fuel on these cyclists," Ferrell said. "He ended up hitting three
> > people before his brakes even started."
> >
> > KRIV's Matthew Seedorff shared images of the crushed bicycles on the side
> > of the road.
> >
> > Ferrell added that the driver, identified as a 16-year-old male, was
> > intentionally trying to harass the cyclists. Authorities did not comment
> > on the driver's condition, KTRK reported.
> >
> > "There was no reason for this to happen," Ferrell said, adding that the
> > teen stayed on the scene following the collisions. "It wasn't like he was
> > on his phone. [He] definitely meant to try and scare these people [or]
> > intimidate them in some way. [Maybe he then] made a mistake and ran them
> > over."
> >
> > The teen driver was not arrested as of Saturday, KRIV reported. The Waller
> > County Sheriff's Office did not immediately respond to Insider's request
> > for comment.
> >
> > Read the original article on Insider
> >
> > https://news.yahoo.com/16-old-driving-truck-ran-184304653.html
> >
> >
> > --
> > "LOCKDOWN", left-wing COVID fearmongering. 95% of COVID infections
> > recover with no after effects.
> >
> > No collusion - Special Counsel Robert Swan Mueller III, March 2019.
> > Officially made Nancy Pelosi a two-time impeachment loser.
> >
> > Donald J. Trump, cheated out of a second term by fraudulent "mail-in"
> > ballots. Report voter fraud: sf.n...@mail.house.gov
> >
> > Thank you for cleaning up the disaster of the 2008-2017 Obama / Biden
> > fiasco, President Trump.
> >
> > Under Barack Obama's leadership, the United States of America became the
> > The World According To Garp. Obama sold out heterosexuals for Hollywood
> > queer liberal democrat donors.
> >
> > President Trump boosted the economy, reduced illegal invasions, appointed
> > dozens of judges and three SCOTUS justices.
> Just read today that a Special Prosecutor has been assigned to this case. On another forum t here's a lot of questions being asked as to whether the kid or his parents are related to the movers and shakers of that area. Popular opinion is that that's about the only reason for the lack of charges thus far and also why a Special Prosecutor was brought in.
>
> It'll be interesting to see how this ends.
>
> Cheers

Just read this from a judge in that county.

"Waller County Judge Trey Duhon posted the following on the Waller County (Official) Facebook page on September 30. Many of you may remember a few years ago when Waller County cracked down and started issuing tickets to bicycle riders who ran stop signs and other violations. He met with members of the MS150 Steering Committee and representatives of other organized rides and bicycling groups. I attended the meeting as part of the MS150 contingent. He was friendly, non-confrontational, and genuinely worked with us reach a solution. I see no reason to doubt his sincerity on the current matter.

From County Judge Trey Duhon:

I just got off the phone with Linda Bates. Linda is the current President of the South Central Chapter of the National MS Society, which oversees and organizes the MS150. We are going to work together to organize another Cycling Summit meeting in Waller County between my office, Sheriff Troy Guidry, some folks with MS150, and bike ride presidents and cycling group leadership individuals from the Houston area.

We hope to have this meeting scheduled in the coming weeks to have a discussion on continuing our efforts to improve safety in Waller County for cyclists and motorists, including education and outreach, working together with TXDOT to bring more shoulders and bike lanes to Waller County, and re-establishing lines of communication between the various bike rides and Waller County through the WCSO, so we can keep people apprised of organized rides and routes as they occur during the year. I spoke to Sheriff Troy Guidry today and he is more than ready to engage and meet with the MS150 and bike ride organizers as well.
If there are any bike groups or bike ride organizers that would like to be a part of that meeting, please email my office at t.duhon@wallercounty.us and we will make sure to include you when it is scheduled.

On another note - it has come to our attention that there may be some individuals or groups of cyclists that may be looking to come out to Waller County to make a statement or to cause issues and/or antagonize motorists... This is unfortunate, but I have seen some posts myself on some Houston FB cycling/bike pages that seem to point to this as well. Please keep in mind that this is not representative of the cycling community in Houston and these are not part of any organized rides (just like this past weekend's incident is not representative of Waller County), but there's always the possibility that some folks may look to cause trouble or to make a point.

I want to take this opportunity to strongly encourage everyone to welcome any cyclist that comes to our community. Be courteous. Wave hello. Offer them a water. Follow the rules of the road. Remember that bikes have the right (whether you like it or not) to be on the road, regardless of whether there is a shoulder or not. Do not let anyone antagonize or cause you to lose your cool. Remember - you can not control others. You can only control how you react to them. Choose not to react. Smile and be friendly. Take a different route if you can.

Below are some tips for when you encounter a cyclist or group of cyclists on a Waller County road. And before some of you inevitably criticize me for being “pro-cyclist”, please keep in mind that the advice that is being given is in the vein of giving people options in terms of reacting to bicyclists rather than losing one’s temper…. I’m not saying that everyone who encounters a cyclist should find another route…. (Keeping in mind that for organized rides - avoiding certain areas probably works best if you need be somewhere).

The advice being given is about being pro-safety…. I was on the scene in Pattison several years ago when those cyclists were run over and killed. I will never get those images out of my mind…. I don’t not want to ever see that happen in Waller County again…. There’s alot of work to be done to help change this situation on both sides…. But until then I want everyone to take a deep breath, and be safe.

1) Always be on the look out for cyclists.

2) Bicycles are entitled to ride in the lane of traffic.
Bicyclists are required by law to follow the same traffic laws as vehicles; however, they are also permitted to ride in the lane of travel. This means that they may travel in the same lane as you – in front of you, even if they are travelling slower than you. Most cyclists prefer to ride on the shoulder, however, road conditions sometimes make that impossible or extremely unsafe. If there is a cyclist on the road in front of you, chances are that they will return to the shoulder as soon as it is safe to do so. Just be patient.

3) If you pass a cyclist, do so safely.
If you insist on passing a cyclist, do it safely. Get as far away from the cyclist as possible and leave plenty of distance in front of them before you return to your lane. Wide mirrors or things hanging off your vehicle can make contact with a cyclist and cause serious injury or death, even if your car doesn’t hit them. A good rule of thumb is to “give them three feet” (i.e. always leave at least three feet between the outside edge of your car and the bike you are passing).

On Thursday, October 7, 2021 at 2:57:41 PM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> On Sunday, October 3, 2021 at 1:09:54 p.m. UTC-4, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> > On Tuesday, September 28, 2021 at 2:25:58 p.m. UTC-4, Leroy N. Soetoro wrote:
> > > A 16-year-old driving a truck ran over six cyclists in Texas, sending four
> > > to the hospital.
> > >
> > > One cyclist said the driver intentionally slowed down to blow smoke on the
> > > cyclists.
> > >
> > > The driver, who stayed on the scene following the collisions, has not been
> > > arrested, KRIV reported.
> > >
> > > Visit Insider's homepage for more stories.
> > >
> > > A teen truck driver in Texas ran over six cyclists on Saturday, sending
> > > four of them to the hospital with non-life-threatening injuries.
> > >
> > > The cyclists riding along a highway in Houston when a black diesel pickup
> > > truck intentionally slowed down and then accelerated in front of them to
> > > blow exhaust on the cyclists, one of the riders said.
> > >
> > > "I thought someone was dead," cyclist Chase Ferrell said, according to
> > > KRIV. "I heard a lot of crunching. I heard brakes. Tires screeching.
> > > People screaming."
> > >
> > > KTRK reported that two of the cyclists were treated at a local hospital in
> > > Waller County, and two others were airlifted to a Houston hospital to be
> > > treated for head injuries. Two other cyclists refused treatment.
> > >
> > > Ferrell said the group was about 75 miles into their ride as they trained
> > > for an ironman. After the truck blew exhaust on cyclists in Ferrell's
> > > lane, the driver attempted to do the same maneuver on cyclists riding
> > > ahead of Ferrell, the cyclist said, culminating in the collision.
> > >
> > > "The reason he couldn't stop is because he was accelerating to blow more
> > > diesel fuel on these cyclists," Ferrell said. "He ended up hitting three
> > > people before his brakes even started."
> > >
> > > KRIV's Matthew Seedorff shared images of the crushed bicycles on the side
> > > of the road.
> > >
> > > Ferrell added that the driver, identified as a 16-year-old male, was
> > > intentionally trying to harass the cyclists. Authorities did not comment
> > > on the driver's condition, KTRK reported.
> > >
> > > "There was no reason for this to happen," Ferrell said, adding that the
> > > teen stayed on the scene following the collisions. "It wasn't like he was
> > > on his phone. [He] definitely meant to try and scare these people [or]
> > > intimidate them in some way. [Maybe he then] made a mistake and ran them
> > > over."
> > >
> > > The teen driver was not arrested as of Saturday, KRIV reported. The Waller
> > > County Sheriff's Office did not immediately respond to Insider's request
> > > for comment.
> > >
> > > Read the original article on Insider
> > >
> > > https://news.yahoo.com/16-old-driving-truck-ran-184304653.html
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > "LOCKDOWN", left-wing COVID fearmongering. 95% of COVID infections
> > > recover with no after effects.
> > >
> > > No collusion - Special Counsel Robert Swan Mueller III, March 2019.
> > > Officially made Nancy Pelosi a two-time impeachment loser.
> > >
> > > Donald J. Trump, cheated out of a second term by fraudulent "mail-in"
> > > ballots. Report voter fraud: sf.n...@mail.house.gov
> > >
> > > Thank you for cleaning up the disaster of the 2008-2017 Obama / Biden
> > > fiasco, President Trump.
> > >
> > > Under Barack Obama's leadership, the United States of America became the
> > > The World According To Garp. Obama sold out heterosexuals for Hollywood
> > > queer liberal democrat donors.
> > >
> > > President Trump boosted the economy, reduced illegal invasions, appointed
> > > dozens of judges and three SCOTUS justices.
> > Just read today that a Special Prosecutor has been assigned to this case. On another forum t here's a lot of questions being asked as to whether the kid or his parents are related to the movers and shakers of that area. Popular opinion is that that's about the only reason for the lack of charges thus far and also why a Special Prosecutor was brought in.
> >
> > It'll be interesting to see how this ends.
> >
> > Cheers
>
> Just read this from a judge in that county.
>
> "Waller County Judge Trey Duhon posted the following on the Waller County (Official) Facebook page on September 30. Many of you may remember a few years ago when Waller County cracked down and started issuing tickets to bicycle riders who ran stop signs and other violations. He met with members of the MS150 Steering Committee and representatives of other organized rides and bicycling groups. I attended the meeting as part of the MS150 contingent. He was friendly, non-confrontational, and genuinely worked with us reach a solution. I see no reason to doubt his sincerity on the current matter.
>
> From County Judge Trey Duhon:
>
> I just got off the phone with Linda Bates. Linda is the current President of the South Central Chapter of the National MS Society, which oversees and organizes the MS150. We are going to work together to organize another Cycling Summit meeting in Waller County between my office, Sheriff Troy Guidry, some folks with MS150, and bike ride presidents and cycling group leadership individuals from the Houston area.
>
> We hope to have this meeting scheduled in the coming weeks to have a discussion on continuing our efforts to improve safety in Waller County for cyclists and motorists, including education and outreach, working together with TXDOT to bring more shoulders and bike lanes to Waller County, and re-establishing lines of communication between the various bike rides and Waller County through the WCSO, so we can keep people apprised of organized rides and routes as they occur during the year. I spoke to Sheriff Troy Guidry today and he is more than ready to engage and meet with the MS150 and bike ride organizers as well.
> If there are any bike groups or bike ride organizers that would like to be a part of that meeting, please email my office at t.d...@wallercounty.us and we will make sure to include you when it is scheduled.
>
> On another note - it has come to our attention that there may be some individuals or groups of cyclists that may be looking to come out to Waller County to make a statement or to cause issues and/or antagonize motorists... This is unfortunate, but I have seen some posts myself on some Houston FB cycling/bike pages that seem to point to this as well. Please keep in mind that this is not representative of the cycling community in Houston and these are not part of any organized rides (just like this past weekend's incident is not representative of Waller County), but there's always the possibility that some folks may look to cause trouble or to make a point.
>
> I want to take this opportunity to strongly encourage everyone to welcome any cyclist that comes to our community. Be courteous. Wave hello. Offer them a water. Follow the rules of the road. Remember that bikes have the right (whether you like it or not) to be on the road, regardless of whether there is a shoulder or not. Do not let anyone antagonize or cause you to lose your cool. Remember - you can not control others. You can only control how you react to them. Choose not to react. Smile and be friendly. Take a different route if you can.
>
> Below are some tips for when you encounter a cyclist or group of cyclists on a Waller County road. And before some of you inevitably criticize me for being “pro-cyclist”, please keep in mind that the advice that is being given is in the vein of giving people options in terms of reacting to bicyclists rather than losing one’s temper…. I’m not saying that everyone who encounters a cyclist should find another route…. (Keeping in mind that for organized rides - avoiding certain areas probably works best if you need be somewhere).
>
> The advice being given is about being pro-safety…. I was on the scene in Pattison several years ago when those cyclists were run over and killed. I will never get those images out of my mind…. I don’t not want to ever see that happen in Waller County again…. There’s alot of work to be done to help change this situation on both sides…. But until then I want everyone to take a deep breath, and be safe.
>
> 1) Always be on the look out for cyclists.
>
> 2) Bicycles are entitled to ride in the lane of traffic.
> Bicyclists are required by law to follow the same traffic laws as vehicles; however, they are also permitted to ride in the lane of travel. This means that they may travel in the same lane as you – in front of you, even if they are travelling slower than you. Most cyclists prefer to ride on the shoulder, however, road conditions sometimes make that impossible or extremely unsafe. If there is a cyclist on the road in front of you, chances are that they will return to the shoulder as soon as it is safe to do so. Just be patient.
>
> 3) If you pass a cyclist, do so safely.
> If you insist on passing a cyclist, do it safely. Get as far away from the cyclist as possible and leave plenty of distance in front of them before you return to your lane. Wide mirrors or things hanging off your vehicle can make contact with a cyclist and cause serious injury or death, even if your car doesn’t hit them. A good rule of thumb is to “give them three feet” (i.e. always leave at least three feet between the outside edge of your car and the bike you are passing).
>
> 4) NEVER harass cyclists.
> This can include honking, yelling, cursing and threatening. There is simply no reason whatsoever to initiate any type of road rage whether it is against another car driver or a cyclist. There isn’t anywhere you need to be soon enough that justifies uncivil behavior. AGGRESSIVE DRIVING towards a cyclist will not be tolerated. Period.
>
> 5) Pay attention to your surroundings.
> This rule applies, regardless of when and where you are driving. You have a legal duty “to see what is there to be seen,” which means you need to be looking! Distractions such as texting, talking on the phone, eating, putting on makeup, reading and talking to people in your vehicle reduce the amount of attention you are paying to your surroundings and the approaching hazards. “I didn’t see you” is never an excuse when you hit someone.
>
> 6) Be careful when backing up or opening your car door.
> Before backing your car, look in the rear view mirror, side mirror and through your windows to see if cyclists are approaching. Back up slowly so that they will have time to react if they approach after you have looked for them. Before opening your car door after parallel parking, look to your left to see if cyclists are approaching on the road. Opening your car door in front of a cyclist is a violation of the law.
>
> 7) Look Left and Right before pulling out onto a road.
> Some drivers get so focused on pulling out onto a roadway, especially if the traffic is heavy, that they focus only on finding that one gap in traffic that they call pull into. As a result, although they may look toward the direction of where they are turning, they fail to look the other direction.. There may be a cyclist approaching, but the motorist is so focused on finding a gap that they don’t see them. As a result, many cyclists have been injured by cars pulling out into traffic, when they could have easily seen them, if only they had looked.
>
> 😎 Yield to cyclists – even if you don’t have to.
> Sometimes, cars and cyclists approach intersections at nearly the same time, or cars approach a path where a cyclist is crossing a road. If it is safe for you to do so, yield to the cyclist and let them cross. Many cyclists wear special shoes that clip into their pedals. This allows them to ride more efficiently, but also makes it more difficult for them to stop suddenly without falling. Some cyclists may run a stop sign... It's better to anticipate and give them right of way (even when you are not required) than to live with the fact that somebody lost their life in a collision with your vehicle.
> I hope this helps!! Let's show the Houston cycling community the reason why everyone is leaving Houston and coming out to Waller County... because we have some of the nicest and friendliest people in the state."
>
> Cheers