Am 17.07.23 um 22:03 schrieb AJL:
> On 7/17/23 11:14 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>
>> Well, cards are modernized. No magnetic stripe, new chip, no embossed
>> letters, add NFC... I can see that the chip will be modernized in years
>> to come.
>
> Or no card at all, just your hand. Did you see that post? Pretty handy, huh.
> Sorry...

Never ever!
Those who accept giving away biometric data for such unimportant things
like paying a chocolate bar are stupid idiots.

--
Prudentia potentia est

On 7/17/23 1:13 PM, Joerg Lorenz wrote:
>Am 17.07.23 um 22:03 schrieb AJL:
>> On 7/17/23 11:14 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>
>>> Well, cards are modernized. No magnetic stripe, new chip, no embossed
>>> letters, add NFC... I can see that the chip will be modernized in years
>>> to come.
>>
>> Or no card at all, just your hand. Did you see that post? Pretty handy, huh.
>> Sorry...

>Never ever!

"pretty HANDY" was supposed to be a play on words joke.

>Those who accept giving away biometric data for such unimportant things
>like paying a chocolate bar are stupid idiots.

Some would say giving biometric data away for any cost is bad. Heck, I don't
even give my phone the finger... (Another joke, sorry again...)

AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:
> On 7/17/23 10:43 AM, Chris wrote:
>> AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:
>>> On 7/17/23 6:13 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>> On 2023-07-17 09:15, AJL wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Probably the worst security of the whole credit card system is the mail
>>>>> part. I'm all the time getting a neighbors mail and visa versa.
>>>
>>
>>>> The card is mailed "inactive", and you need the pin to use it the first
>>>> time.
>>>
>>> If the card doesn't arrive, ask for another. The first one is then
>>>> voided. The bank may try a different mail provider the second time.
>>>
>>> All true. But anytime the mail loses any of my bank info it's a security
>>> violation. My solution to cut down on the problem would be to stop having
>>> the old card expire.
>>
>> It's a fair point. Why do cards expire?
>>
>> Although, it is a piece of information required for online transactions so
>> you'd need something else.
>
> Currently I do. My cards both have that magic 4 digit number...

I mean on top of that. Transactions need the 16-digit number, the expiry
and the cvv. If there wasn't an expiry you'd need something else. Issue
date, maybe?

Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
> On 2023-07-17 19:43, Chris wrote:
>> AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:
>>> On 7/17/23 6:13 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>> On 2023-07-17 09:15, AJL wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Probably the worst security of the whole credit card system is the mail
>>>>> part. I'm all the time getting a neighbors mail and visa versa.
>>>
>>>> The card is mailed "inactive", and you need the pin to use it the first
>>>> time.
>>>
>>> If the card doesn't arrive, ask for another. The first one is then
>>>> voided. The bank may try a different mail provider the second time.
>>>
>>> All true. But anytime the mail loses any of my bank info it's a security
>>> violation. My solution to cut down on the problem would be to stop having
>>> the old card expire.
>>
>> It's a fair point. Why do cards expire?
>>
>> Although, it is a piece of information required for online transactions so
>> you'd need something else.
>
> Well, cards are modernized. No magnetic stripe, new chip, no embossed
> letters, add NFC... I can see that the chip will be modernized in years
> to come.

Just replace them as needed. I got an updated card from my bank last year
which was months, if not a year, before it was due to be replaced. Waiting
for a card to expire slows progress.

AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:
> On 7/17/23 11:14 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>
>> Well, cards are modernized. No magnetic stripe, new chip, no embossed
>> letters, add NFC... I can see that the chip will be modernized in years
>> to come.
>
> Or no card at all, just your hand. Did you see that post?

Bad idea. Can't replace a hand like you can with a card.

> Pretty handy, huh.
> Sorry...

You should be ;)

On 7/17/23 2:44 PM, Chris wrote:
>AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:

>> anytime the mail loses any of my bank info it's a security
>> violation. My solution to cut down on the problem would be to stop having
>> the old card expire.

>>> It's a fair point. Why do cards expire?
>>>
>>> Although, it is a piece of information required for online transactions so
>>> you'd need something else.
>>
>> Currently I do. My cards both have that magic 4 digit number...
>
>I mean on top of that. Transactions need the 16-digit number, the expiry
>and the cvv. If there wasn't an expiry you'd need something else. Issue
>date, maybe?

Why isn't name, number, and cvv enough for online security purposes? Perhaps
the online merchant wants YOU to know the card is good before ordering. In
a regular store they/you know right away if the card is good...

Am 17.07.23 um 22:35 schrieb AJL:
> Some would say giving biometric data away for any cost is bad.

*SIC*!

--
Prudentia potentia est

<snip>

> Why isn't name, number, and cvv enough for online security purposes?
> Perhaps
> the online merchant wants YOU to know the card is good before ordering. In
> a regular store they/you know right away if the card is good...

One thing that's really useful is to have true virtual credit cards with
separate numbers, expiration dates, and CVVs, with the capability to
deactivate the card to prevent the merchant from making additional charges.

If you've ever signed up for trial subscriptions that require a credit
card, being able to prevent it from converting to a regular-priced
subscription when the trial period is over, is a great feature should
you forget to cancel, or if the company makes it extremely difficult to
cancel (i.e. Sirius XM). Or if you're ordering from a company that
you're unsure about it's good to use a virtual credit card so you can
deactivate it after you've made the purchase.

Very few credit cards still have true virtual credit card capability.
The Citibank Doublecash Mastercard still has it.

--
“If you are not an expert on a subject, then your opinions about it
really do matter less than the opinions of experts. It's not
indoctrination nor elitism. It's just that you don't know as much as
they do about the subject.”—Tin Foil Awards

In article <u96mr1$1odf9$1@dont-email.me>, sms
<scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:

> If you've ever signed up for trial subscriptions that require a credit
> card, being able to prevent it from converting to a regular-priced
> subscription when the trial period is over, is a great feature should
> you forget to cancel, or if the company makes it extremely difficult to
> cancel (i.e. Sirius XM).

you're liable for any charges unless you actually do cancel.

> Or if you're ordering from a company that
> you're unsure about it's good to use a virtual credit card so you can
> deactivate it after you've made the purchase.

more importantly, it avoids any issues if the card number is
compromised.

> Very few credit cards still have true virtual credit card capability.
> The Citibank Doublecash Mastercard still has it.

with one of the worst implementations.

[Late response due to extended absence and plowing through the
EU-battery thread.]

AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:
> On 7/11/2023 8:28 AM, Ken Blake wrote:
> > sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com wrote:
>
> >> LOL, sometimes you'll see someone using a check but it's not very
> >> common.
>
> > I don't use checks often, but I do to a couple of vendors I use who
> > don't take credit cards--my wife's hairdresser and our gardener.
>
> I use the most checks for out of town grandkid/greatgrandkid gifts.
> Though lately Amazon has taken over some of that with it wrapped gift
> delivery.

As you still have checks, you indeed might as well use them for these
kind of cases. We (NL and probably most of the rest of the western
world) would probably use other, mostly electronic, means.

> Also my yard guy. Just leave a check under the front doormat.

Doesn't he have a bank account?

> Most recently a check for $20K + plus my trade in for the new car. I do
> still find them useful...

How quaint, paying a car with a check! The last and only time I did
that was some *55 years* ago! We have had this thing called 'EFT' for
several decades now. "Time to upgrade... ;)"?

If needed, I could pay for a car on the spot with my phone.

How would you pay for a house (or similar expensive item)? Also with a
check? I just use(d) 'online banking' from any device/location.

On 8/5/23 10:59 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> [Late response due to extended absence and plowing through the
> EU-battery thread.]
>
> AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:
>> On 7/11/2023 8:28 AM, Ken Blake wrote:
>> > sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com wrote:
>>
>> >> LOL, sometimes you'll see someone using a check but it's not very
>> >> common.
>>
>> > I don't use checks often, but I do to a couple of vendors I use who
>> > don't take credit cards--my wife's hairdresser and our gardener.
>>
>> I use the most checks for out of town grandkid/greatgrandkid gifts.
>> Though lately Amazon has taken over some of that with it wrapped gift
>> delivery.
>
> As you still have checks, you indeed might as well use them for these
> kind of cases. We (NL and probably most of the rest of the western
> world) would probably use other, mostly electronic, means.
>
>> Also my yard guy. Just leave a check under the front doormat.
>
> Doesn't he have a bank account?
>
>> Most recently a check for $20K + plus my trade in for the new car. I do
>> still find them useful...
>
> How quaint, paying a car with a check! The last and only time I did
> that was some *55 years* ago! We have had this thing called 'EFT' for
> several decades now. "Time to upgrade... ;)"?

I put mine on my bank credit card -- I had previously transferred
sufficient funds to pay for it, but I wanted the 1% rebate. I wish I'd
thought to increase the limit on the 2% rebate card, but when I was
thinking about car shopping I wasn't thinking about paying for it by CC
because I might have bought from a person rather than a dealer.

Apparently putting a car on a CC was a rarity at that dealership.

> If needed, I could pay for a car on the spot with my phone.

Only money thing I do with my phone is deposit checks. I have a computer...

> How would you pay for a house (or similar expensive item)? Also with a
> check? I just use(d) 'online banking' from any device/location.

I use checks when cash is impractical and putting it on a card costs
more than the postage stamp and/or setting up a direct bank transfer is
more trouble than writing a check. Income and property tax, mostly.
The DMV now allows CCs.

--
Cheers, Bev
"Some people say that when it rains it means that God is crying,
probably because of something that you did." --Jack Handey

On 8/5/2023 10:59 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> AJL wrote:

> We (NL and probably most of the rest of the western world) would
> probably use other, mostly electronic, means.

We have both checks and electronic methods available. I use whatever is
best for me and/or the situation.

> Doesn't he [yard guy] have a bank account?

Of course, otherwise he couldn't cash my check dummy.

>> Most recently a check for $20K + plus my trade in for the new car.

> How quaint, paying a car with a check!

I'm not surprised your quaint little country doesn't have the variety of
financial options available to us here in the new world...

> We have had this thing called 'EFT'

Yup. Us too.

> for several decades now. "Time to upgrade... ;)"?

Nah. 30 seconds to write the check and hand it to anybody anywhere. No
phone, electronics, or wireless required.

> If needed, I could pay for a car on the spot with my phone.

Me too. Big Fn deal...

> How would you pay for a house

By using whatever method was best for ME. My current house was paid for
with checks in stages as it was being built in 2000.

> (or similar expensive item)?

My credit card limit is $35K if they'll let me (cashback).

> I just use(d) 'online banking' from any device/location.

Gosh Frank, you are sooooo impressive...

On 8/5/2023 2:28 PM, The Real Bev wrote:

> Apparently putting a car on a CC was a rarity at that dealership.

My dealership would take my credit card but the extra fee involved was
larger than my cashback so that was out...

On 8/5/23 3:32 PM, AJL wrote:
> On 8/5/2023 2:28 PM, The Real Bev wrote:
>
>> Apparently putting a car on a CC was a rarity at that dealership.
>
> My dealership would take my credit card but the extra fee involved was
> larger than my cashback so that was out...

Nope, and he put the whole thing on the card. Perhaps because it was
the bank and he could see that the funds were there.

--
Cheers, Bev
"I don't trust carry-out food. When you find hair in my cooking
you don't hafta worry about where it came from!" -- Dinette Set

On 8/5/2023 4:36 PM, The Real Bev wrote:
> On 8/5/23 3:32 PM, AJL wrote:
>> On 8/5/2023 2:28 PM, The Real Bev wrote:
>>
>>> Apparently putting a car on a CC was a rarity at that
>>> dealership.
>>
>> My dealership would take my credit card but the extra fee involved
>> was larger than my cashback so that was out...
>
> Nope, and he put the whole thing on the card. Perhaps because it
> was the bank and he could see that the funds were there.

That and/or perhaps he made enough extra profit on your sale so that he
could absorb the merchant card fee that he has to pay.

My GUESS is that the extra fee for using a credit card that my
dealership wanted to tack on my sale was to cover that fee...

With large purchases, like a car or house, I prefer a paper trail.
Pretty hard to point a phone at a judge to say that's how you paid.
With credit card, you would have to prove the merchant ID for the
transaction matched the seller, and try to get full disclosure from the
credit company on just who is the merchant.

On Sat, 5 Aug 2023 15:32:10 -0700, AJL wrote:
>
>> How would you pay for a house

In 1979 I used my credit card (Master Charge IIRC) for $30,000 at the
closing for a house we bought. And it was done on the old paper, 3-copy
form they used back then.

Side bar, the transaction took nearly 3 months to clear! I got nervous
and kept checking with my bank. They kept saying they saw no problem on
their (and my) end. It did finally clear. I had almost 3 months
"float" with that $30,000. I still have my copy of the form, and you
can see it was not easy to write the $30,000 in the little TOTAL box.
:-)

My theory is that everyone that had to handle the form sent it back to
the previous agent for a verification on the amount -- thus eating up
lots of time in transit.

ahhh... The $^%^$%! ol' days.

Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:
> [Late response due to extended absence and plowing through the
> EU-battery thread.]
>
> AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:
>> On 7/11/2023 8:28 AM, Ken Blake wrote:
>>> sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com wrote:
>>
>>>> LOL, sometimes you'll see someone using a check but it's not very
>>>> common.
>>
>>> I don't use checks often, but I do to a couple of vendors I use who
>>> don't take credit cards--my wife's hairdresser and our gardener.
>>
>> I use the most checks for out of town grandkid/greatgrandkid gifts.
>> Though lately Amazon has taken over some of that with it wrapped gift
>> delivery.
>
> As you still have checks, you indeed might as well use them for these
> kind of cases. We (NL and probably most of the rest of the western
> world) would probably use other, mostly electronic, means.

You need to remember why there's all these non-back money transfer systems
coming out of the US: paypal, wise, apple pay, etc. The US banking system
is horribly fragmented and archaic in many places.

We don't use cheques any more, and haven't done for a long time, because we
have simple standard systems in their place.

>> Also my yard guy. Just leave a check under the front doormat.
>
> Doesn't he have a bank account?
>
>> Most recently a check for $20K + plus my trade in for the new car. I do
>> still find them useful...
>
> How quaint, paying a car with a check! The last and only time I did
> that was some *55 years* ago! We have had this thing called 'EFT' for
> several decades now. "Time to upgrade... ;)"?
>
> If needed, I could pay for a car on the spot with my phone.

Same. Although, used a credit card with the current car. Wasn't using Apple
pay at the time.

> How would you pay for a house (or similar expensive item)? Also with a
> check? I just use(d) 'online banking' from any device/location.

Here it's most common to go through a solicitor to make sure all the
payments are coordinated at the same time.

AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:
> On 8/5/2023 10:59 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> > AJL wrote:
>
> > We (NL and probably most of the rest of the western world) would
> > probably use other, mostly electronic, means.
>
> We have both checks and electronic methods available. I use whatever is
> best for me and/or the situation.

Of course, that's why I said "As you still have checks, you indeed
might as well use them for these kind of cases.".

> > Doesn't he [yard guy] have a bank account?
>
> Of course, otherwise he couldn't cash my check dummy.

I ofcourse meant, why not do an EFT to his account? Can be done 'here'
in many, many ways, also phone-to-phone (without knowing the account
details).

> >> Most recently a check for $20K + plus my trade in for the new car.
>
> > How quaint, paying a car with a check!
>
> I'm not surprised your quaint little country doesn't have the variety of
> financial options available to us here in the new world...

Rest assured, we have much more options than You Guys (TM) have. We
just don't have (read: do no longer use) this quaint one.

For example the idea of Apple/Google/<whatever> Pay is for us a
'solution' in search for a problem. Ofcourse now You Guys (TM) want to
use it when doing business with us, we've added those to our bag of
tricks as well, but we don't have to - but can - use it ourselves.

> > We have had this thing called 'EFT'
>
> Yup. Us too.
>
> > for several decades now. "Time to upgrade... ;)"?
>
> Nah. 30 seconds to write the check and hand it to anybody anywhere. No
> phone, electronics, or wireless required.

Yes, like I said, if you have the option, you might as well use it as
you see fit.

> > If needed, I could pay for a car on the spot with my phone.
>
> Me too. Big Fn deal...
>
> > How would you pay for a house
>
> By using whatever method was best for ME. My current house was paid for
> with checks in stages as it was being built in 2000.
>
> > (or similar expensive item)?
>
> My credit card limit is $35K if they'll let me (cashback).
>
> > I just use(d) 'online banking' from any device/location.
>
> Gosh Frank, you are sooooo impressive...

Aren't I!? :-)

Thanks for the chit-chat. AFAIC, over-and-out.

The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 8/5/23 10:59 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
[...]
> > If needed, I could pay for a car on the spot with my phone.
>
> Only money thing I do with my phone is deposit checks. I have a computer...

FTR, "If needed" and "could". Here (NL), in most cases there would be
no need to do it on the spot or/and with a phone and I would not do
these kind of transfers with my phone either. (As this posting proves, I
also have a computer! :-))

[...]

Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote:
> Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:
> > [Late response due to extended absence and plowing through the
> > EU-battery thread.]
> >
> > AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:
> >> On 7/11/2023 8:28 AM, Ken Blake wrote:
> >>> sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com wrote:
> >>
> >>>> LOL, sometimes you'll see someone using a check but it's not very
> >>>> common.
> >>
> >>> I don't use checks often, but I do to a couple of vendors I use who
> >>> don't take credit cards--my wife's hairdresser and our gardener.
> >>
> >> I use the most checks for out of town grandkid/greatgrandkid gifts.
> >> Though lately Amazon has taken over some of that with it wrapped gift
> >> delivery.
> >
> > As you still have checks, you indeed might as well use them for these
> > kind of cases. We (NL and probably most of the rest of the western
> > world) would probably use other, mostly electronic, means.
>
> You need to remember why there's all these non-back money transfer systems
> coming out of the US: paypal, wise, apple pay, etc. The US banking system
> is horribly fragmented and archaic in many places.

<firmly sitting on hands>

> We don't use cheques any more, and haven't done for a long time, because we
> have simple standard systems in their place.
[...]

> > How would you pay for a house (or similar expensive item)? Also with a
> > check? I just use(d) 'online banking' from any device/location.
>
> Here it's most common to go through a solicitor to make sure all the
> payments are coordinated at the same time.

Yes, here the payments go through a notary. My (bad) example was
really an exception, i.e. paying for real estate without having a
mortgage.

On 8/5/2023 4:36 PM, The Real Bev wrote:
> On 8/5/23 3:32 PM, AJL wrote:
>> On 8/5/2023 2:28 PM, The Real Bev wrote:
>>
>>> Apparently putting a car on a CC was a rarity at that dealership.
>>
>> My dealership would take my credit card but the extra fee involved was
>> larger than my cashback so that was out...
>
> Nope, and he put the whole thing on the card.  Perhaps because it was
> the bank and he could see that the funds were there.
>

The last two cars we purchased they would only let us put $5000 on the card.

Since we get 3% cash back, if they had let us put the whole thing on the
credit card, even with a 2% fee, we would have done that.

--
“If you are not an expert on a subject, then your opinions about it
really do matter less than the opinions of experts. It's not
indoctrination nor elitism. It's just that you don't know as much as
they do about the subject.”—Tin Foil Awards

On 8/6/23 8:02 AM, sms wrote:
> On 8/5/2023 4:36 PM, The Real Bev wrote:
>> On 8/5/23 3:32 PM, AJL wrote:
>>> On 8/5/2023 2:28 PM, The Real Bev wrote:
>>>
>>>> Apparently putting a car on a CC was a rarity at that dealership.
>>>
>>> My dealership would take my credit card but the extra fee involved was
>>> larger than my cashback so that was out...
>>
>> Nope, and he put the whole thing on the card.  Perhaps because it was
>> the bank and he could see that the funds were there.
>>
>
> The last two cars we purchased they would only let us put $5000 on the card.

Same thing with a friend who bought his car from the same dealer.
Foresight is good.

> Since we get 3% cash back, if they had let us put the whole thing on the
> credit card, even with a 2% fee, we would have done that.

I think Mastercard and Visa charge 3% with Amex charging 4 or 5.
Haven't checked for a long time. Interesting that grocery stores'
profit margins are less than what they pay to accept credit cards.

--
Cheers, Bev
It's true that Smokey Bear deserves praise for his
campaign against forest fires, but nobody ever mentions
the park rangers he kills for their hats.