On 10/10/2021 10:51 PM, Joy Beeson wrote:
> On Sat, 9 Oct 2021 15:03:51 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Over 60,000 firemen are injured or killed every year but you think that sheer amateurs should be involved in things that they couldn't begin to understand.
>
> Volunteer firemen are a *long* way from uneducated and untrained.
>
> One aspect of the training applies to bicycle safety: they practice
> simple things that anybody could figure out in two seconds over and
> over and over again...
>
> For the same reason, never touch your brake levers without getting
> into the position that you want to be in when you slam the brakes on
> after a car swerves into your path. When startled, you will brake the
> way you always brake.

That's something that worried me a bit back when I taught people to use
their bike brakes most effectively: Would anyone remember how when the
need actually arose? Because in my experience, the need almost never
arises.

The only time I can recall true emergency braking was when a young fawn
walked out in front of me during a 30+ mph downhill. It was by far the
hardest braking I've ever done at speed. Fortunately, it worked (and my
yelling kept the siblings from entering the road) but I'd hesitate to
bet on repeating that performance.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Saturday, October 9, 2021 at 9:28:51 PM UTC-7, News 2021 wrote:
> On Sat, 09 Oct 2021 15:03:51 -0700, Tom Kunich scribed:
> > On Friday, October 8, 2021 at 4:27:32 PM UTC-7, News 2021 wrote:
> >> On Fri, 08 Oct 2021 11:19:55 -0400, Frank Krygowski scribed:
> >> > Here's a weird side effect: Back in the days of phones tied to the
> >> > wall,
> >> > a grandparent, uncle or aunt could call the house, a kid as young as
> >> > age four could pick up the phone, and the kid and adult could have a
> >> > nice conversation.
> >> Party lines were good and bad. The good part was winding the ringer
> >> allowed you to tell all on the line that a scrub fire had broken out
> >> and various people could arrange fore the fire tender, various
> >> community assistance if bad, etc.
> >
> > Please stop talking. Over 60,000 firemen are injured or killed every
> > year but you think that sheer amateurs should be involved in things that
> > they couldn't begin to understand.
> Wow, does the USA have no work and safety standards?
> FWIW, Australia has managed to involve volunteers as the major aource of
> fire fighters since it was discovered/founded/created. That is why we
> (mostly) manage our 'bush fires so well.

You "manage" your forest fires so well? Each season you burn more forest area than the entire US! Now, forest fires were supposed to be natural occurrences about every 3 or 4 years and the dried waste is laid onto the ground.. Man fighting these fires is actually destroying the forest's way to renew itself. This is ALL plainly shown in the tree rings. What's more - dousing fires reduces glades in which new growth occurs that wild-life feed upon. So fighting fires is really attempting to reduce fire loses to people living in those areas and not in some manner "saving the forest." On the oldest trees on Earth - the California Sequoia, the tree rings show that about ever 4 years a fire would start, probably from lightning strikes and burn until the fall or winter rains. Total burn acreage is down to 5% of what it used to be.

In the past dry periods could last for 100 years or more and all of the forests that once covered the Great Plains burned away and there is little more than grass now. California burned so often that the trees started growing fireproof bark and pinecones that only open and drop seeds after a fire burns the area.

On Fri, 15 Oct 2021 15:33:04 -0700, Tom Kunich scribed:

> On Saturday, October 9, 2021 at 9:28:51 PM UTC-7, News 2021 wrote:
>> On Sat, 09 Oct 2021 15:03:51 -0700, Tom Kunich scribed:
>> > On Friday, October 8, 2021 at 4:27:32 PM UTC-7, News 2021 wrote:
>> >> On Fri, 08 Oct 2021 11:19:55 -0400, Frank Krygowski scribed:
>> >> > Here's a weird side effect: Back in the days of phones tied to the
>> >> > wall,
>> >> > a grandparent, uncle or aunt could call the house, a kid as young
>> >> > as age four could pick up the phone, and the kid and adult could
>> >> > have a nice conversation.
>> >> Party lines were good and bad. The good part was winding the ringer
>> >> allowed you to tell all on the line that a scrub fire had broken out
>> >> and various people could arrange fore the fire tender, various
>> >> community assistance if bad, etc.
>> >
>> > Please stop talking. Over 60,000 firemen are injured or killed every
>> > year but you think that sheer amateurs should be involved in things
>> > that they couldn't begin to understand.
>> Wow, does the USA have no work and safety standards?
>> FWIW, Australia has managed to involve volunteers as the major aource
>> of fire fighters since it was discovered/founded/created. That is why
>> we (mostly) manage our 'bush fires so well.
>
> You "manage" your forest fires so well? Each season you burn more forest
> area than the entire US!

That was one year due to statistical occurrence of a prolonged dry spell
for years, we sometimes have 10 year droughts and the effects of climate
change.

> Now, forest fires were supposed to be natural
> occurrences about every 3 or 4 years

Nope. 3-4 years is a very frequent fire regime. Some areas haven't burnt
since discover/white invasion and some areas suffer if they have two
burns a century. This is why Australia has a high biodiversity.

> and the dried waste is laid onto
> the ground.

Historicaly it was physicaly consumed by a range of small animals that
broke it down to a good composting mulch. The introduction of cats and
foxes lead to the almost obliteration of the animals breaking that dead
waste down. Them introduction of hard hoofed domestic animals also
largely destroyed the soils and thus a lot of the microbiota of the soils.

> Man fighting these fires is actually destroying the forest's
> way to renew itself.

Nope, they are fighting unnatural fires from a heavily accumulated tree/
shrub fall that just sits their now and is very, very slow to break down
due to the changes above.

> This is ALL plainly shown in the tree rings.

You'll have to explain that bit. FWIW, one of my jobs was counting tree
rings including from trees that were far older than pre-european
settlement.

> What's more - dousing fires reduces glades in which new growth
> occurs that wild-life feed upon.

Perhaps that is why Bambi never existed on this continent until european
settlement/invasion\, but it sure doesn't stop them being a modern feral
pest. Australian fauna has a lot more aerial dimension that a few cute
feet on the ground deer.

"Glades" exist here for a short while(<10 yuears max) when a forest
giant falls and leaves a gap in the canopy, but it is quickly filled by a
whole host of pioneer plants that respond and compete with each other for
the light until another one of the dominant species closes the canopy
again. FYI, we have a massive number of forest types from rocky desserts,
various types of grasslands, various types of forest. Walking up across
hill.mountain range can have you walking through about five different
environments, some of which may include your Bambi glades and some will
not. I've come across some areas where Bambi's throat would be quickly
slashed from the vegetation.

> So fighting fires is really attempting to reduce
> fire loses to people living in those areas and not in some manner
> "saving the forest."

Mostly yes, because mostly these fires are around where people exist.
Occurrence is very heavily correlated.
Some are to protest forest for 'wood' products as a burnt out forest
doesn't grow timber for construction, pulp wood, etc.
Some are to ensure biodiversity. Some species rely on certain flora that
are very susceptible to fires. The recent bad fires damaged some very
rarely burnt areas.

> On the oldest trees on Earth - the California
> Sequoia, the tree rings show that about ever 4 years a fire would start,
> probably from lightning strikes and burn until the fall or winter rains.
> Total burn acreage is down to 5% of what it used to be.

You are not telling the full picture. the type and nature of the fire
matters greatly. A lightning strike during a thunderstorm would hardly
burn much as the vegetation and ground would be wet. Anyway, that is one
species and a very large amount of Australian flora species would be
extinct if subject to that 4 year fire regime,

>
> In the past dry periods could last for 100 years or more and all of the
> forests that once covered the Great Plains burned away and there is
> little more than grass now. California burned so often that the trees
> started growing fireproof bark and pinecones that only open and drop
> seeds after a fire burns the area.

Yawn. Your current Californian wild fires are not the same as the
historical fires. Point?

On Friday, October 15, 2021 at 6:16:13 PM UTC-7, News 2021 wrote:
> On Fri, 15 Oct 2021 15:33:04 -0700, Tom Kunich scribed:
> > On Saturday, October 9, 2021 at 9:28:51 PM UTC-7, News 2021 wrote:
> >> On Sat, 09 Oct 2021 15:03:51 -0700, Tom Kunich scribed:
> >> > On Friday, October 8, 2021 at 4:27:32 PM UTC-7, News 2021 wrote:
> >> >> On Fri, 08 Oct 2021 11:19:55 -0400, Frank Krygowski scribed:
> >> >> > Here's a weird side effect: Back in the days of phones tied to the
> >> >> > wall,
> >> >> > a grandparent, uncle or aunt could call the house, a kid as young
> >> >> > as age four could pick up the phone, and the kid and adult could
> >> >> > have a nice conversation.
> >> >> Party lines were good and bad. The good part was winding the ringer
> >> >> allowed you to tell all on the line that a scrub fire had broken out
> >> >> and various people could arrange fore the fire tender, various
> >> >> community assistance if bad, etc.
> >> >
> >> > Please stop talking. Over 60,000 firemen are injured or killed every
> >> > year but you think that sheer amateurs should be involved in things
> >> > that they couldn't begin to understand.
> >> Wow, does the USA have no work and safety standards?
> >> FWIW, Australia has managed to involve volunteers as the major aource
> >> of fire fighters since it was discovered/founded/created. That is why
> >> we (mostly) manage our 'bush fires so well.
> >
> > You "manage" your forest fires so well? Each season you burn more forest
> > area than the entire US!
> That was one year due to statistical occurrence of a prolonged dry spell
> for years, we sometimes have 10 year droughts and the effects of climate
> change.
> > Now, forest fires were supposed to be natural
> > occurrences about every 3 or 4 years
> Nope. 3-4 years is a very frequent fire regime. Some areas haven't burnt
> since discover/white invasion and some areas suffer if they have two
> burns a century. This is why Australia has a high biodiversity.
> > and the dried waste is laid onto
> > the ground.
> Historicaly it was physicaly consumed by a range of small animals that
> broke it down to a good composting mulch. The introduction of cats and
> foxes lead to the almost obliteration of the animals breaking that dead
> waste down. Them introduction of hard hoofed domestic animals also
> largely destroyed the soils and thus a lot of the microbiota of the soils..
> > Man fighting these fires is actually destroying the forest's
> > way to renew itself.
> Nope, they are fighting unnatural fires from a heavily accumulated tree/
> shrub fall that just sits their now and is very, very slow to break down
> due to the changes above.
> > This is ALL plainly shown in the tree rings.
> You'll have to explain that bit. FWIW, one of my jobs was counting tree
> rings including from trees that were far older than pre-european
> settlement.
> > What's more - dousing fires reduces glades in which new growth
> > occurs that wild-life feed upon.
> Perhaps that is why Bambi never existed on this continent until european
> settlement/invasion\, but it sure doesn't stop them being a modern feral
> pest. Australian fauna has a lot more aerial dimension that a few cute
> feet on the ground deer.
>
> "Glades" exist here for a short while(<10 yuears max) when a forest
> giant falls and leaves a gap in the canopy, but it is quickly filled by a
> whole host of pioneer plants that respond and compete with each other for
> the light until another one of the dominant species closes the canopy
> again. FYI, we have a massive number of forest types from rocky desserts,
> various types of grasslands, various types of forest. Walking up across
> hill.mountain range can have you walking through about five different
> environments, some of which may include your Bambi glades and some will
> not. I've come across some areas where Bambi's throat would be quickly
> slashed from the vegetation.
> > So fighting fires is really attempting to reduce
> > fire loses to people living in those areas and not in some manner
> > "saving the forest."
> Mostly yes, because mostly these fires are around where people exist.
> Occurrence is very heavily correlated.
> Some are to protest forest for 'wood' products as a burnt out forest
> doesn't grow timber for construction, pulp wood, etc.
> Some are to ensure biodiversity. Some species rely on certain flora that
> are very susceptible to fires. The recent bad fires damaged some very
> rarely burnt areas.
> > On the oldest trees on Earth - the California
> > Sequoia, the tree rings show that about ever 4 years a fire would start,
> > probably from lightning strikes and burn until the fall or winter rains..
> > Total burn acreage is down to 5% of what it used to be.
> You are not telling the full picture. the type and nature of the fire
> matters greatly. A lightning strike during a thunderstorm would hardly
> burn much as the vegetation and ground would be wet. Anyway, that is one
> species and a very large amount of Australian flora species would be
> extinct if subject to that 4 year fire regime,
> >
> > In the past dry periods could last for 100 years or more and all of the
> > forests that once covered the Great Plains burned away and there is
> > little more than grass now. California burned so often that the trees
> > started growing fireproof bark and pinecones that only open and drop
> > seeds after a fire burns the area.
> Yawn. Your current Californian wild fires are not the same as the
> historical fires. Point?
Peter - stop playing games. Dry areas that are NORMALLY dry burn every few years from natural causes. Yes, some areas have not burned in a very long time because they are normally wet and with rain occurring often. California fires are almost entirely set. They are often blamed on the power company because they can take money from the power company to pay for damages which the power company then recovers from its customers. This is nothing more than an illegal form of taxation.