https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbsvTHgBEMs

sent to me by a customer.

I don't know that I would have chosen a third-tier Frejus
with Valentino gear set to represent 'craftsmanship' or
'quality' or much of anything really. It's in great shape,
very low mileage, probably because it wasn't all that fun to
ride.
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Friday, November 5, 2021 at 1:42:53 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbsvTHgBEMs
>
> sent to me by a customer.
>
> I don't know that I would have chosen a third-tier Frejus
> with Valentino gear set to represent 'craftsmanship' or
> 'quality' or much of anything really. It's in great shape,
> very low mileage, probably because it wasn't all that fun to
> ride.

If I could get the older steel bikes like the Basso Loto with Oria tubing and the Eddy Merckx Strata OS, that I would just as soon ride those. But this business about worship of 6 speed freewheel and friction shifting can stay with those vintage guys who think that 6 speeds are enough. They aren't. A good 8 speed group is fine and 9 speeds give you another climbing gear. Freewheels of that size break axles. Freehubs are all hell and gone more reliable. Friction shifting really allowed you to have absolutely silent gears but a properly set up Brifter is just as good.

On Fri, 05 Nov 2021 15:42:48 -0500,
AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbsvTHgBEMs
>
> sent to me by a customer.
>
> I don't know that I would have chosen a third-tier Frejus with
> Valentino gear set to represent 'craftsmanship' or 'quality' or
> much of anything really. It's in great shape, very low mileage,
> probably because it wasn't all that fun to ride.

And the video fails to note that for the attribute of simplicity
one can hardly do better than a fixed gear.

--
Ted Heise <theise@panix.com> West Lafayette, IN, USA

On 11/5/2021 4:24 PM, Ted Heise wrote:
> On Fri, 05 Nov 2021 15:42:48 -0500,
> AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbsvTHgBEMs
>>
>> sent to me by a customer.
>>
>> I don't know that I would have chosen a third-tier Frejus with
>> Valentino gear set to represent 'craftsmanship' or 'quality' or
>> much of anything really. It's in great shape, very low mileage,
>> probably because it wasn't all that fun to ride.
>
> And the video fails to note that for the attribute of simplicity
> one can hardly do better than a fixed gear.
>

+1

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 11/5/2021 5:21 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> But this business about worship of 6 speed freewheel and friction shifting can stay with those vintage guys who think that 6 speeds are enough. They aren't.

Hmm. Five cogs and friction shifting took me coast to coast. Three
speeds inside my rear hub handled my utility ride today. And there are
rumors of a guy here who uses just one speed and never coasts.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Friday, November 5, 2021 at 2:54:33 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 11/5/2021 5:21 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > But this business about worship of 6 speed freewheel and friction shifting can stay with those vintage guys who think that 6 speeds are enough. They aren't.
> Hmm. Five cogs and friction shifting took me coast to coast. Three
> speeds inside my rear hub handled my utility ride today. And there are
> rumors of a guy here who uses just one speed and never coasts.

Ahem . . . on a triple. The right five speeds would be O.K., but the jumps would be huge to make it useful around here at my age, and I would still need a smaller than standard inner ring. I'd cry if I had to ride my '70s racing standard 42/52 13-19 (or 21). In '76, I rode from Los Gatos, Ca. to Vancouver Island, BC, Canada on my custom 531 sport-tourer with a 42/52 13-28. Fully loaded. That's when men were men. It was all Shimano Dura Ace with a long-cage Cyclone RD. It was a beaut. My transcon bike was all Campy.

That Frejus is a third-stringer, and the Olmo is no great shakes either. I don't know why people get all misty-eyed about the commodity bikes from the early '80s like the Olmos. There were spectacular US custom builders during that era that I would much rather own -- down Andrew's way, for one: http://www.classicrendezvous.com/USA/Appel/road_Martin_Appel.htm

-- Jay Beattie.

On 11/5/2021 5:56 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> On Friday, November 5, 2021 at 2:54:33 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 11/5/2021 5:21 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> But this business about worship of 6 speed freewheel and friction shifting can stay with those vintage guys who think that 6 speeds are enough. They aren't.
>> Hmm. Five cogs and friction shifting took me coast to coast. Three
>> speeds inside my rear hub handled my utility ride today. And there are
>> rumors of a guy here who uses just one speed and never coasts.
>
> Ahem . . . on a triple. The right five speeds would be O.K., but the jumps would be huge to make it useful around here at my age, and I would still need a smaller than standard inner ring. I'd cry if I had to ride my '70s racing standard 42/52 13-19 (or 21). In '76, I rode from Los Gatos, Ca. to Vancouver Island, BC, Canada on my custom 531 sport-tourer with a 42/52 13-28. Fully loaded. That's when men were men. It was all Shimano Dura Ace with a long-cage Cyclone RD. It was a beaut. My transcon bike was all Campy.
>
> That Frejus is a third-stringer, and the Olmo is no great shakes either. I don't know why people get all misty-eyed about the commodity bikes from the early '80s like the Olmos. There were spectacular US custom builders during that era that I would much rather own -- down Andrew's way, for one: http://www.classicrendezvous.com/USA/Appel/road_Martin_Appel.htm

+1
or just across the border, Ron Boi:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/rrb.html

(note 2x5 Record on the black bike)

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Friday, November 5, 2021 at 5:24:42 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 11/5/2021 5:56 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> > On Friday, November 5, 2021 at 2:54:33 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >> On 11/5/2021 5:21 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>> But this business about worship of 6 speed freewheel and friction shifting can stay with those vintage guys who think that 6 speeds are enough. They aren't.
> >> Hmm. Five cogs and friction shifting took me coast to coast. Three
> >> speeds inside my rear hub handled my utility ride today. And there are
> >> rumors of a guy here who uses just one speed and never coasts.
> >
> > Ahem . . . on a triple. The right five speeds would be O.K., but the jumps would be huge to make it useful around here at my age, and I would still need a smaller than standard inner ring. I'd cry if I had to ride my '70s racing standard 42/52 13-19 (or 21). In '76, I rode from Los Gatos, Ca. to Vancouver Island, BC, Canada on my custom 531 sport-tourer with a 42/52 13-28. Fully loaded. That's when men were men. It was all Shimano Dura Ace with a long-cage Cyclone RD. It was a beaut. My transcon bike was all Campy.
> >
> > That Frejus is a third-stringer, and the Olmo is no great shakes either.. I don't know why people get all misty-eyed about the commodity bikes from the early '80s like the Olmos. There were spectacular US custom builders during that era that I would much rather own -- down Andrew's way, for one: http://www.classicrendezvous.com/USA/Appel/road_Martin_Appel.htm
> +1
> or just across the border, Ron Boi:
> http://www.yellowjersey.org/rrb.html
>
> (note 2x5 Record on the black bike)

Andrew, what caused all the rusting around the seat lug on that Wyganowski? Was that a chroming issues? It seems like a weird place to have rust.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Fri, 05 Nov 2021 15:42:48 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbsvTHgBEMs
>
>sent to me by a customer.
>
>I don't know that I would have chosen a third-tier Frejus
>with Valentino gear set to represent 'craftsmanship' or
>'quality' or much of anything really. It's in great shape,
>very low mileage, probably because it wasn't all that fun to
>ride.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, as they say (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 11/5/2021 7:47 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> On Friday, November 5, 2021 at 5:24:42 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 11/5/2021 5:56 PM, jbeattie wrote:
>>> On Friday, November 5, 2021 at 2:54:33 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 11/5/2021 5:21 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>> But this business about worship of 6 speed freewheel and friction shifting can stay with those vintage guys who think that 6 speeds are enough. They aren't.
>>>> Hmm. Five cogs and friction shifting took me coast to coast. Three
>>>> speeds inside my rear hub handled my utility ride today. And there are
>>>> rumors of a guy here who uses just one speed and never coasts.
>>>
>>> Ahem . . . on a triple. The right five speeds would be O.K., but the jumps would be huge to make it useful around here at my age, and I would still need a smaller than standard inner ring. I'd cry if I had to ride my '70s racing standard 42/52 13-19 (or 21). In '76, I rode from Los Gatos, Ca. to Vancouver Island, BC, Canada on my custom 531 sport-tourer with a 42/52 13-28. Fully loaded. That's when men were men. It was all Shimano Dura Ace with a long-cage Cyclone RD. It was a beaut. My transcon bike was all Campy.
>>>
>>> That Frejus is a third-stringer, and the Olmo is no great shakes either. I don't know why people get all misty-eyed about the commodity bikes from the early '80s like the Olmos. There were spectacular US custom builders during that era that I would much rather own -- down Andrew's way, for one: http://www.classicrendezvous.com/USA/Appel/road_Martin_Appel.htm
>> +1
>> or just across the border, Ron Boi:
>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/rrb.html
>>
>> (note 2x5 Record on the black bike)
>
> Andrew, what caused all the rusting around the seat lug on that Wyganowski? Was that a chroming issues? It seems like a weird place to have rust.
>
> -- Jay Beattie.
>
It was a real mess. Yes, possibly chroming issues or paint
prep error, don't know. The Italians fade chrome back a few
cm but most US platers used a mask with a hard line which is
very hard to work with later.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Friday, November 5, 2021 at 11:56:37 PM UTC+1, jbeattie wrote:
> On Friday, November 5, 2021 at 2:54:33 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 11/5/2021 5:21 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > But this business about worship of 6 speed freewheel and friction shifting can stay with those vintage guys who think that 6 speeds are enough. They aren't.
> > Hmm. Five cogs and friction shifting took me coast to coast. Three
> > speeds inside my rear hub handled my utility ride today. And there are
> > rumors of a guy here who uses just one speed and never coasts.
> Ahem . . . on a triple. The right five speeds would be O.K., but the jumps would be huge to make it useful around here at my age, and I would still need a smaller than standard inner ring. I'd cry if I had to ride my '70s racing standard 42/52 13-19 (or 21). In '76, I rode from Los Gatos, Ca. to Vancouver Island, BC, Canada on my custom 531 sport-tourer with a 42/52 13-28. Fully loaded. That's when men were men. It was all Shimano Dura Ace with a long-cage Cyclone RD. It was a beaut. My transcon bike was all Campy.
>
> That Frejus is a third-stringer, and the Olmo is no great shakes either. I don't know why people get all misty-eyed about the commodity bikes from the early '80s like the Olmos. There were spectacular US custom builders during that era that I would much rather own -- down Andrew's way, for one: http://www.classicrendezvous.com/USA/Appel/road_Martin_Appel.htm
>
> -- Jay Beattie.

Do I offend people saying that all the frames from that era looked the same to me. It was all about the paint job. I can remember that people got excited about dropout and lugs. Never understood that. I'm glad to got rid of rust and chipped paint. People that paint a Ti frame should be shot.

Lou

On Fri, 05 Nov 2021 19:24:38 -0500,
AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> On 11/5/2021 5:56 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> > On Friday, November 5, 2021 at 2:54:33 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >> On 11/5/2021 5:21 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>> But this business about worship of 6 speed freewheel and
> >>> friction shifting can stay with those vintage guys who think
> >>> that 6 speeds are enough. They aren't.
> >> Hmm. Five cogs and friction shifting took me coast to coast.
> >> Three speeds inside my rear hub handled my utility ride
> >> today. And there are rumors of a guy here who uses just one
> >> speed and never coasts.
> >
> > Ahem . . . on a triple. The right five speeds would be O.K.,
> > but the jumps would be huge to make it useful around here at
> > my age, and I would still need a smaller than standard inner
> > ring. I'd cry if I had to ride my '70s racing standard 42/52
> > 13-19 (or 21). In '76, I rode from Los Gatos, Ca. to
> > Vancouver Island, BC, Canada on my custom 531 sport-tourer
> > with a 42/52 13-28. Fully loaded. That's when men were men.
> > It was all Shimano Dura Ace with a long-cage Cyclone RD. It
> > was a beaut. My transcon bike was all Campy.
> >
> > That Frejus is a third-stringer, and the Olmo is no great
> > shakes either. I don't know why people get all misty-eyed
> > about the commodity bikes from the early '80s like the Olmos.
> > There were spectacular US custom builders during that era that
> > I would much rather own -- down Andrew's way, for one:
> > http://www.classicrendezvous.com/USA/Appel/road_Martin_Appel.htm
>
> +1
> or just across the border, Ron Boi:
> http://www.yellowjersey.org/rrb.html
>
> (note 2x5 Record on the black bike)

All very nice work! I'm conditioned from years on rbr to have a
first instinct that the first bike had a typo.

http://www.panix.com/~theise/rbr-twh.jpg

And the last sequence reminds me of just how corrosive was Phyllis
Schlafly.

--
Ted Heise <theise@panix.com> West Lafayette, IN, USA

On Fri, 5 Nov 2021 15:56:35 -0700 (PDT),
jbeattie <jbeattie57@msn.com> wrote:
> On Friday, November 5, 2021 at 2:54:33 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 11/5/2021 5:21 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > But this business about worship of 6 speed freewheel and
> > > friction shifting can stay with those vintage guys who think
> > > that 6 speeds are enough. They aren't.
> > Hmm. Five cogs and friction shifting took me coast to coast.
> > Three speeds inside my rear hub handled my utility ride today.
> > And there are rumors of a guy here who uses just one speed and
> > never coasts.
>
> Ahem . . . on a triple. The right five speeds would be O.K.,
> but the jumps would be huge to make it useful around here at my
> age, and I would still need a smaller than standard inner ring.
> I'd cry if I had to ride my '70s racing standard 42/52 13-19
> (or 21). In '76, I rode from Los Gatos, Ca. to Vancouver
> Island, BC, Canada on my custom 531 sport-tourer with a 42/52
> 13-28. Fully loaded. That's when men were men. It was all
> Shimano Dura Ace with a long-cage Cyclone RD. It was a beaut.
> My transcon bike was all Campy.
>
> That Frejus is a third-stringer, and the Olmo is no great
> shakes either. I don't know why people get all misty-eyed
> about the commodity bikes from the early '80s like the Olmos.
> There were spectacular US custom builders during that era that
> I would much rather own -- down Andrew's way, for one:
> http://www.classicrendezvous.com/USA/Appel/road_Martin_Appel.htm

Now *that* is a beauty!

--
Ted Heise <theise@panix.com> West Lafayette, IN, USA

On 11/5/2021 6:56 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> On Friday, November 5, 2021 at 2:54:33 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 11/5/2021 5:21 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> But this business about worship of 6 speed freewheel and friction shifting can stay with those vintage guys who think that 6 speeds are enough. They aren't.
>> Hmm. Five cogs and friction shifting took me coast to coast. Three
>> speeds inside my rear hub handled my utility ride today. And there are
>> rumors of a guy here who uses just one speed and never coasts.
>
> Ahem . . . on a triple.

Yep. As I said, five were enough. BTW, my first overseas tour was three
weeks around England and Scotland. Five cogs with a double. You're
right, that's when men were men.

> The right five speeds would be O.K., but the jumps would be huge to make it useful around here at my age, and I would still need a smaller than standard inner ring.

Ah well. I have pretty good tolerance regarding cadence. I look for fine
adjustment only if I'll be in a particular gear for quite a while.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Friday, November 5, 2021 at 2:54:33 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 11/5/2021 5:21 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > But this business about worship of 6 speed freewheel and friction shifting can stay with those vintage guys who think that 6 speeds are enough. They aren't.
> Hmm. Five cogs and friction shifting took me coast to coast. Three
> speeds inside my rear hub handled my utility ride today. And there are
> rumors of a guy here who uses just one speed and never coasts.

Why don't you impress me Frank? My wife and her three daughters rode coast to coast and then rode half way the following year so that the kids could compete in the Jr. Olympics. People have ridden coast to coast on fixies. That didn't make it fun.

8 speeds allowed you to have enough gears to always be able to ride without endless stress. But freewheels of that size would break axles. That's why Shimano designed the freehub. But of course that would be actual mechanical engineering which you don't see to take into account.

On Saturday, November 6, 2021 at 1:25:47 AM UTC-7, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, November 5, 2021 at 11:56:37 PM UTC+1, jbeattie wrote:
> > On Friday, November 5, 2021 at 2:54:33 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > On 11/5/2021 5:21 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > But this business about worship of 6 speed freewheel and friction shifting can stay with those vintage guys who think that 6 speeds are enough.. They aren't.
> > > Hmm. Five cogs and friction shifting took me coast to coast. Three
> > > speeds inside my rear hub handled my utility ride today. And there are
> > > rumors of a guy here who uses just one speed and never coasts.
> > Ahem . . . on a triple. The right five speeds would be O.K., but the jumps would be huge to make it useful around here at my age, and I would still need a smaller than standard inner ring. I'd cry if I had to ride my '70s racing standard 42/52 13-19 (or 21). In '76, I rode from Los Gatos, Ca. to Vancouver Island, BC, Canada on my custom 531 sport-tourer with a 42/52 13-28. Fully loaded. That's when men were men. It was all Shimano Dura Ace with a long-cage Cyclone RD. It was a beaut. My transcon bike was all Campy.
> >
> > That Frejus is a third-stringer, and the Olmo is no great shakes either.. I don't know why people get all misty-eyed about the commodity bikes from the early '80s like the Olmos. There were spectacular US custom builders during that era that I would much rather own -- down Andrew's way, for one: http://www.classicrendezvous.com/USA/Appel/road_Martin_Appel.htm
> >
> > -- Jay Beattie.
> Do I offend people saying that all the frames from that era looked the same to me. It was all about the paint job. I can remember that people got excited about dropout and lugs. Never understood that. I'm glad to got rid of rust and chipped paint. People that paint a Ti frame should be shot.

I feel the same way about old steel frames, except when I don't. A local builder, Sascha White (Vanilla) made/makes some frames that are just gorgeous. https://tinyurl.com/63f42d4n http://thevanillaworkshop.squarespace.com/vanilla-road I could have bought one of his early frames, but I thought he was just another kid with a torch who didn't know what he was doing -- we had tons of them in Portland. And I had moved on from steel anyway, but man were/are they gorgeous bikes. Then he went to a six year waiting list, and now I think most bikes are built by his minions under the Speedvagen banner. That was probably the last bike I wanted to buy just because it was beautiful.

Then you get into the bicycles of yore, and its more about your connection to particular bikes from the past than anything else. I loved the Masi stay design with the short-point lugs, just like the Appel and Boi used, and the first time I saw a Bruce Gordon with the fastback seat cluster, I was transfixed. http://www.classicrendezvous.com/USA/Gordon_bruce/1970s-80s_bike_show.htm Tom Ritchey was building frames at Palo Alto Bikes with much the same look, but they just didn't seem to have the same execution, and filet brazed joints looked weird to me, and Tom was doing a lot of that in the late '70s. Gunnar Caylor was also a building a fast-back stay bike that I liked, but I still preferred the Masi look-- but was too cheap to buy one, and geometry in large sizes was sometimes odd with too short TTs, so a good friend and frame builder knocked one off for me. https://sasobike.com/

If a pristine California Masi came up for sale in my size and not for some stupid price, I'd consider buying it -- and if I did, I'd wonder "why did I buy this?" And then I would put a bunch of modern equipment on it, and it would look weird. You really have to rebuild them with era appropriate parts. It's not like buying a model T, beefing up the frame and putting a small block in it. With bicycles, parts make the look -- and the parts are on the outside, and to get the right look, you have to live with the performance issues of old parts. I broke every NR crank I owned except the one on my track bike, which is still in use -- and the ones that got stolen, which may still be in use somewhere. Last thing I want is 5/6 speed friction shifting. The only use for a NR seat post with the two inconvenient bolts is self-defense. https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/Q24AAOSwZt1hM89t/s-l1600.jpg But drillium would be super-cool! https://www.rouleur.cc/blogs/the-rouleur-journal/the-beauty-of-drillium

-- Jay Beattie.

On Sat, 6 Nov 2021 08:57:56 -0700 (PDT),
jbeattie <jbeattie57@msn.com> wrote:
> On Saturday, November 6, 2021 at 1:25:47 AM UTC-7, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Friday, November 5, 2021 at 11:56:37 PM UTC+1, jbeattie wrote:
> > > On Friday, November 5, 2021 at 2:54:33 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > > On 11/5/2021 5:21 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > > But this business about worship of 6 speed freewheel and
> > > > > friction shifting can stay with those vintage guys who
> > > > > think that 6 speeds are enough. They aren't.

I agree with Tom, here.

> > > > Hmm. Five cogs and friction shifting took me coast to
> > > > coast. Three speeds inside my rear hub handled my utility
> > > > ride today. And there are rumors of a guy here who uses
> > > > just one speed and never coasts.
> > > Ahem . . . on a triple. The right five speeds would be O.K.,
> > > but the jumps would be huge to make it useful around here at
> > > my age, and I would still need a smaller than standard inner
> > > ring. I'd cry if I had to ride my '70s racing standard 42/52
> > > 13-19 (or 21). In '76, I rode from Los Gatos, Ca. to
> > > Vancouver Island, BC, Canada on my custom 531 sport-tourer
> > > with a 42/52 13-28. Fully loaded. That's when men were men.
> > > It was all Shimano Dura Ace with a long-cage Cyclone RD. It
> > > was a beaut. My transcon bike was all Campy.
> > >
> > > That Frejus is a third-stringer, and the Olmo is no great
> > > shakes either. I don't know why people get all misty-eyed
> > > about the commodity bikes from the early '80s like the
> > > Olmos. There were spectacular US custom builders during that
> > > era that I would much rather own -- down Andrew's way, for
> > > one:
> > > http://www.classicrendezvous.com/USA/Appel/road_Martin_Appel.htm

> > Do I offend people saying that all the frames from that era
> > looked the same to me. It was all about the paint job. I can
> > remember that people got excited about dropout and lugs. Never
> > understood that. I'm glad to got rid of rust and chipped
> > paint. People that paint a Ti frame should be shot.
>
> I feel the same way about old steel frames, except when I
> don't.

+1

It's ineffable.

> ...A local builder, Sascha White (Vanilla) made/makes some
> frames that are just gorgeous. https://tinyurl.com/63f42d4n
> http://thevanillaworkshop.squarespace.com/vanilla-road

Another beauty!

--
Ted Heise <theise@panix.com> West Lafayette, IN, USA

On 11/6/2021 11:06 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Friday, November 5, 2021 at 2:54:33 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 11/5/2021 5:21 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> But this business about worship of 6 speed freewheel and friction shifting can stay with those vintage guys who think that 6 speeds are enough. They aren't.
>> Hmm. Five cogs and friction shifting took me coast to coast. Three
>> speeds inside my rear hub handled my utility ride today. And there are
>> rumors of a guy here who uses just one speed and never coasts.
>
> Why don't you impress me Frank? My wife and her three daughters rode coast to coast and then rode half way the following year so that the kids could compete in the Jr. Olympics. People have ridden coast to coast on fixies. That didn't make it fun.

I'm not interested in impressing you, Tom.

We had fun on the rides I described. I still have fun with those bikes.

I can't imagine the mindset that says "Riding is no fun if the bike
isn't the optimum." (Or the current fashion.)

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Saturday, November 6, 2021 at 10:39:35 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 11/6/2021 11:06 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Friday, November 5, 2021 at 2:54:33 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >> On 11/5/2021 5:21 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>> But this business about worship of 6 speed freewheel and friction shifting can stay with those vintage guys who think that 6 speeds are enough. They aren't.
> >> Hmm. Five cogs and friction shifting took me coast to coast. Three
> >> speeds inside my rear hub handled my utility ride today. And there are
> >> rumors of a guy here who uses just one speed and never coasts.
> >
> > Why don't you impress me Frank? My wife and her three daughters rode coast to coast and then rode half way the following year so that the kids could compete in the Jr. Olympics. People have ridden coast to coast on fixies. That didn't make it fun.
> I'm not interested in impressing you, Tom.
>
> We had fun on the rides I described. I still have fun with those bikes.
>
> I can't imagine the mindset that says "Riding is no fun if the bike
> isn't the optimum." (Or the current fashion.)
What you're showing us that you're the one with the really faulty memory if you think you had fun on that ride with a 5 speed triple. Satisfaction with completing a ride is not having fun on the ride.

On Saturday, November 6, 2021 at 2:00:27 PM UTC-7, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, November 6, 2021 at 10:39:35 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 11/6/2021 11:06 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > On Friday, November 5, 2021 at 2:54:33 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > >> On 11/5/2021 5:21 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > >>> But this business about worship of 6 speed freewheel and friction shifting can stay with those vintage guys who think that 6 speeds are enough.. They aren't.
> > >> Hmm. Five cogs and friction shifting took me coast to coast. Three
> > >> speeds inside my rear hub handled my utility ride today. And there are
> > >> rumors of a guy here who uses just one speed and never coasts.
> > >
> > > Why don't you impress me Frank? My wife and her three daughters rode coast to coast and then rode half way the following year so that the kids could compete in the Jr. Olympics. People have ridden coast to coast on fixies. That didn't make it fun.
> > I'm not interested in impressing you, Tom.
> >
> > We had fun on the rides I described. I still have fun with those bikes.
> >
> > I can't imagine the mindset that says "Riding is no fun if the bike
> > isn't the optimum." (Or the current fashion.)
> What you're showing us that you're the one with the really faulty memory if you think you had fun on that ride with a 5 speed triple. Satisfaction with completing a ride is not having fun on the ride.

I also rode across the US on a five-speed triple with a low of 36/28 (Campy custom triple) which yields a higher low than my gravel bike -- and I was fully loaded. I had a great time! The heat was oppressive east of the Rockies, and I had a tent that leaked, but apart from that, it was awesome. I used that same bike for many loaded tours in California -- lots in the Sierra, and I rode it from PDX to Los Gatos with my then girlfriend, now wife. That bike was stolen, and in 1989, I got the ST1000 with, I think, seven speed, half-step triple. It didn't change my life having 21 speeds instead of 15. My preferences and fitness (and age) have changed, so if I did those rides again, I'd use a different bike with more gears and STI -- probably SPDs, too -- unless I can find myself some Bata Bikers. I'd spend a lot more time in hotels, too.

O.K., I have to tell a story: I rode across the US with my then girl friend (not wife), and we planned to leave the Bikecentennial route in Kentucky and ride south to Knoxville, Tenn. to see some friends, which we did. We ended up riding south down the middle of the Appalachians on a miserable rural highway infested with coal trucks. It was the most dangerous road riding I've ever done, and my girlfriend just stopped riding in some tiny town and refused to go further.

This was not a town with rental cars, taxis or any other alternate transportation. But it did have a tiny movie theater, and we were told a bus going south to Knoxville stopped at the theater -- we didn't know anything more than that, but we decided to sit in front of the theater and see what happened. As we were sitting there, this guy drives by in a pickup with Knoxville dealer plates, turns around in the middle of the road, pulls over in front of the theater and asks us where we're going -- and wants to know about our ride. It was a guy named Jimmy Hayes who planned to ride from his house in Knoxville to Palo Alto for his five-year heart transplant check-up later in 1981. https://apnews.com/article/b762aad2439cda5a0bb18f141ba75a8a He's headed to Knoxville, tells us to throw our bikes in the back and we all barrel down to his house. He lets us shower and clean-up at his place, and then we go out for pizza and beer and to talk about touring. It was great fun, even though with a transplanted heart, he wasn't supposed to be eating pizza. We talked to him later when he got to Palo Alto, but only by phone because he was being swarmed by media. We had a lot of little miracles like that on the ride -- that's what you remember most and not the short-comings of a five-speed transmission.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Sat, 6 Nov 2021 10:50:58 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 11/5/2021 6:56 PM, jbeattie wrote:
>> On Friday, November 5, 2021 at 2:54:33 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 11/5/2021 5:21 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>> But this business about worship of 6 speed freewheel and friction shifting can stay with those vintage guys who think that 6 speeds are enough. They aren't.
>>> Hmm. Five cogs and friction shifting took me coast to coast. Three
>>> speeds inside my rear hub handled my utility ride today. And there are
>>> rumors of a guy here who uses just one speed and never coasts.
>>
>> Ahem . . . on a triple.
>
>Yep. As I said, five were enough. BTW, my first overseas tour was three
>weeks around England and Scotland. Five cogs with a double. You're
>right, that's when men were men.
>
>> The right five speeds would be O.K., but the jumps would be huge to make it useful around here at my age, and I would still need a smaller than standard inner ring.
>
>Ah well. I have pretty good tolerance regarding cadence. I look for fine
>adjustment only if I'll be in a particular gear for quite a while.

It's very much a matter of "horses for courses", as the British say.
Riding in Bangkok I find that it is an unusual day when I use more
then 2 gears.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 11/6/2021 5:00 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Saturday, November 6, 2021 at 10:39:35 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 11/6/2021 11:06 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> On Friday, November 5, 2021 at 2:54:33 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 11/5/2021 5:21 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>> But this business about worship of 6 speed freewheel and friction shifting can stay with those vintage guys who think that 6 speeds are enough. They aren't.
>>>> Hmm. Five cogs and friction shifting took me coast to coast. Three
>>>> speeds inside my rear hub handled my utility ride today. And there are
>>>> rumors of a guy here who uses just one speed and never coasts.
>>>
>>> Why don't you impress me Frank? My wife and her three daughters rode coast to coast and then rode half way the following year so that the kids could compete in the Jr. Olympics. People have ridden coast to coast on fixies. That didn't make it fun.
>> I'm not interested in impressing you, Tom.
>>
>> We had fun on the rides I described. I still have fun with those bikes.
>>
>> I can't imagine the mindset that says "Riding is no fun if the bike
>> isn't the optimum." (Or the current fashion.)
> What you're showing us that you're the one with the really faulty memory if you think you had fun on that ride with a 5 speed triple. Satisfaction with completing a ride is not having fun on the ride.

Read about it:
http://bicyclinglife.com/Recreation/ALittleSummerRide.htm

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Sat, 6 Nov 2021 13:39:27 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 11/6/2021 11:06 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> On Friday, November 5, 2021 at 2:54:33 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 11/5/2021 5:21 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>> But this business about worship of 6 speed freewheel and friction shifting can stay with those vintage guys who think that 6 speeds are enough. They aren't.
>>> Hmm. Five cogs and friction shifting took me coast to coast. Three
>>> speeds inside my rear hub handled my utility ride today. And there are
>>> rumors of a guy here who uses just one speed and never coasts.
>>
>> Why don't you impress me Frank? My wife and her three daughters rode coast to coast and then rode half way the following year so that the kids could compete in the Jr. Olympics. People have ridden coast to coast on fixies. That didn't make it fun.
>
>I'm not interested in impressing you, Tom.
>
>We had fun on the rides I described. I still have fun with those bikes.
>
>I can't imagine the mindset that says "Riding is no fun if the bike
>isn't the optimum." (Or the current fashion.)

But a great many people do buy Mercedes and other expensive autos
because "they are better" when a Ford pickup would work as well (:-)
And wear jeans with rips in the knees (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 11/6/2021 6:49 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Sat, 6 Nov 2021 13:39:27 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> On 11/6/2021 11:06 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> On Friday, November 5, 2021 at 2:54:33 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 11/5/2021 5:21 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>> But this business about worship of 6 speed freewheel and friction shifting can stay with those vintage guys who think that 6 speeds are enough. They aren't.
>>>> Hmm. Five cogs and friction shifting took me coast to coast. Three
>>>> speeds inside my rear hub handled my utility ride today. And there are
>>>> rumors of a guy here who uses just one speed and never coasts.
>>>
>>> Why don't you impress me Frank? My wife and her three daughters rode coast to coast and then rode half way the following year so that the kids could compete in the Jr. Olympics. People have ridden coast to coast on fixies. That didn't make it fun.
>>
>> I'm not interested in impressing you, Tom.
>>
>> We had fun on the rides I described. I still have fun with those bikes.
>>
>> I can't imagine the mindset that says "Riding is no fun if the bike
>> isn't the optimum." (Or the current fashion.)
>
> But a great many people do buy Mercedes and other expensive autos
> because "they are better" when a Ford pickup would work as well (:-)
> And wear jeans with rips in the knees (:-)

A couple days ago I heard a couple women discussing how the rips in the
knees of their jeans had grown from their original size when they bought
them. They weren't complaining or praising them; just discussing the
speed of growing rips. It seemed fairly weird to me.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Saturday, November 6, 2021 at 6:09:50 p.m. UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:
> On Saturday, November 6, 2021 at 2:00:27 PM UTC-7, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, November 6, 2021 at 10:39:35 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > On 11/6/2021 11:06 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > On Friday, November 5, 2021 at 2:54:33 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > >> On 11/5/2021 5:21 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > >>> But this business about worship of 6 speed freewheel and friction shifting can stay with those vintage guys who think that 6 speeds are enough. They aren't.
> > > >> Hmm. Five cogs and friction shifting took me coast to coast. Three
> > > >> speeds inside my rear hub handled my utility ride today. And there are
> > > >> rumors of a guy here who uses just one speed and never coasts.
> > > >
> > > > Why don't you impress me Frank? My wife and her three daughters rode coast to coast and then rode half way the following year so that the kids could compete in the Jr. Olympics. People have ridden coast to coast on fixies. That didn't make it fun.
> > > I'm not interested in impressing you, Tom.
> > >
> > > We had fun on the rides I described. I still have fun with those bikes.
> > >
> > > I can't imagine the mindset that says "Riding is no fun if the bike
> > > isn't the optimum." (Or the current fashion.)
> > What you're showing us that you're the one with the really faulty memory if you think you had fun on that ride with a 5 speed triple. Satisfaction with completing a ride is not having fun on the ride.
> I also rode across the US on a five-speed triple with a low of 36/28 (Campy custom triple) which yields a higher low than my gravel bike -- and I was fully loaded. I had a great time! The heat was oppressive east of the Rockies, and I had a tent that leaked, but apart from that, it was awesome. I used that same bike for many loaded tours in California -- lots in the Sierra, and I rode it from PDX to Los Gatos with my then girlfriend, now wife. That bike was stolen, and in 1989, I got the ST1000 with, I think, seven speed, half-step triple. It didn't change my life having 21 speeds instead of 15. My preferences and fitness (and age) have changed, so if I did those rides again, I'd use a different bike with more gears and STI -- probably SPDs, too -- unless I can find myself some Bata Bikers. I'd spend a lot more time in hotels, too.
>
> O.K., I have to tell a story: I rode across the US with my then girl friend (not wife), and we planned to leave the Bikecentennial route in Kentucky and ride south to Knoxville, Tenn. to see some friends, which we did. We ended up riding south down the middle of the Appalachians on a miserable rural highway infested with coal trucks. It was the most dangerous road riding I've ever done, and my girlfriend just stopped riding in some tiny town and refused to go further.
>
> This was not a town with rental cars, taxis or any other alternate transportation. But it did have a tiny movie theater, and we were told a bus going south to Knoxville stopped at the theater -- we didn't know anything more than that, but we decided to sit in front of the theater and see what happened. As we were sitting there, this guy drives by in a pickup with Knoxville dealer plates, turns around in the middle of the road, pulls over in front of the theater and asks us where we're going -- and wants to know about our ride. It was a guy named Jimmy Hayes who planned to ride from his house in Knoxville to Palo Alto for his five-year heart transplant check-up later in 1981. https://apnews.com/article/b762aad2439cda5a0bb18f141ba75a8a He's headed to Knoxville, tells us to throw our bikes in the back and we all barrel down to his house. He lets us shower and clean-up at his place, and then we go out for pizza and beer and to talk about touring. It was great fun, even though with a transplanted heart, he wasn't supposed to be eating pizza. We talked to him later when he got to Palo Alto, but only by phone because he was being swarmed by media. We had a lot of little miracles like that on the ride -- that's what you remember most and not the short-comings of a five-speed transmission.
>
> -- Jay Beattie.

Agree 100%.

I found that the difference between 15 gears and 21 gears on my bikes was smaller jumps between gears. My touring bike now has 27 gears and I have it set up like a 7-speed rear cluster with two extra bailout gears for the bigger/longer hills or headwinds or for when I'm just feeling tuckered. I also have a Campagnolo Mirage rear derailleur on it and Campagnolo Mirage Ergo levers. I love them when touring as it's so much easier to shift and I shift a lot more often which makes my riding a lot more efficient.

Cheers