The following is a link to a 20-minute "Real Science" video which
discusses how flight evolved at least four separate times on Earth:

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZaZAH2WHAY>

On 10/30/2022 4:35 PM, jillery wrote:
> The following is a link to a 20-minute "Real Science" video which
> discusses how flight evolved at least four separate times on Earth:
>
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZaZAH2WHAY>

statistical confidence?

--
Mystery? -> https://www.dalekelly.org/

On Sunday, October 30, 2022 at 4:35:20 PM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
> The following is a link to a 20-minute "Real Science" video which
> discusses how flight evolved at least four separate times on Earth:
>
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZaZAH2WHAY>

I guess just flapping-powered flight.

Archae, bacteria, viruses, fungal spores, plant pollen have also taken to the skies, many long before the animal kingdom even got started. I've read that they initiate formation of precipitation in the sky, rather than dust.

On Sun, 30 Oct 2022 17:41:25 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
<daud.deden@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, October 30, 2022 at 4:35:20 PM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
>> The following is a link to a 20-minute "Real Science" video which
>> discusses how flight evolved at least four separate times on Earth:
>>
>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZaZAH2WHAY>
>
>I guess just flapping-powered flight.
>
>Archae, bacteria, viruses, fungal spores, plant pollen have also taken to the skies, many long before the animal kingdom even got started. I've read that they initiate formation of precipitation in the sky, rather than dust.

Yes, flight refers to powered flight. Anything small enough
automatically drifts in the breeze or parachutes down, no evolution
required.

On 10/30/2022 10:27 PM, jillery wrote:
> On Sun, 30 Oct 2022 17:41:25 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
> <daud.deden@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sunday, October 30, 2022 at 4:35:20 PM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> The following is a link to a 20-minute "Real Science" video which
>>> discusses how flight evolved at least four separate times on Earth:
>>>
>>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZaZAH2WHAY>
>>
>> I guess just flapping-powered flight.
>>
>> Archae, bacteria, viruses, fungal spores, plant pollen have also taken to the skies, many long before the animal kingdom even got started. I've read that they initiate formation of precipitation in the sky, rather than dust.
>
>
> Yes, flight refers to powered flight. Anything small enough
> automatically drifts in the breeze or parachutes down, no evolution
> required.

statistical assumption/confidence ?

--
Mystery? -> https://www.dalekelly.org/

On Sun, 30 Oct 2022 22:29:30 -0400, Dale <dale@dalekelly.org> wrote:

>On 10/30/2022 10:27 PM, jillery wrote:
>> On Sun, 30 Oct 2022 17:41:25 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
>> <daud.deden@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sunday, October 30, 2022 at 4:35:20 PM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> The following is a link to a 20-minute "Real Science" video which
>>>> discusses how flight evolved at least four separate times on Earth:
>>>>
>>>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZaZAH2WHAY>
>>>
>>> I guess just flapping-powered flight.
>>>
>>> Archae, bacteria, viruses, fungal spores, plant pollen have also taken to the skies, many long before the animal kingdom even got started. I've read that they initiate formation of precipitation in the sky, rather than dust.
>>
>>
>> Yes, flight refers to powered flight. Anything small enough
>> automatically drifts in the breeze or parachutes down, no evolution
>> required.
>
>statistical assumption/confidence ?

I have no idea what the above statement is supposed to mean.

On 10/31/2022 12:34 AM, jillery wrote:
> On Sun, 30 Oct 2022 22:29:30 -0400, Dale <dale@dalekelly.org> wrote:
>
>> On 10/30/2022 10:27 PM, jillery wrote:
>>> On Sun, 30 Oct 2022 17:41:25 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
>>> <daud.deden@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sunday, October 30, 2022 at 4:35:20 PM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>> The following is a link to a 20-minute "Real Science" video which
>>>>> discusses how flight evolved at least four separate times on Earth:
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZaZAH2WHAY>
>>>>
>>>> I guess just flapping-powered flight.
>>>>
>>>> Archae, bacteria, viruses, fungal spores, plant pollen have also taken to the skies, many long before the animal kingdom even got started. I've read that they initiate formation of precipitation in the sky, rather than dust.
>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, flight refers to powered flight. Anything small enough
>>> automatically drifts in the breeze or parachutes down, no evolution
>>> required.
>>
>> statistical assumption/confidence ?
>
>
> I have no idea what the above statement is supposed to mean.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistical_assumption

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistical_inference

as opposed to ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampling_(statistics)

???????

--
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On Tue, 1 Nov 2022 20:06:39 -0400, Dale <dale@dalekelly.org> wrote:

>On 10/31/2022 12:34 AM, jillery wrote:
>> On Sun, 30 Oct 2022 22:29:30 -0400, Dale <dale@dalekelly.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 10/30/2022 10:27 PM, jillery wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 30 Oct 2022 17:41:25 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
>>>> <daud.deden@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Sunday, October 30, 2022 at 4:35:20 PM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>> The following is a link to a 20-minute "Real Science" video which
>>>>>> discusses how flight evolved at least four separate times on Earth:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZaZAH2WHAY>
>>>>>
>>>>> I guess just flapping-powered flight.
>>>>>
>>>>> Archae, bacteria, viruses, fungal spores, plant pollen have also taken to the skies, many long before the animal kingdom even got started. I've read that they initiate formation of precipitation in the sky, rather than dust.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes, flight refers to powered flight. Anything small enough
>>>> automatically drifts in the breeze or parachutes down, no evolution
>>>> required.
>>>
>>> statistical assumption/confidence ?
>>
>>
>> I have no idea what the above statement is supposed to mean.
>
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistical_assumption
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistical_inference
>
>as opposed to ...
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampling_(statistics)
>
>???????

Specify how your cites explain your statement.

On 11/2/2022 4:00 AM, jillery wrote:
> On Tue, 1 Nov 2022 20:06:39 -0400, Dale <dale@dalekelly.org> wrote:
>
>> On 10/31/2022 12:34 AM, jillery wrote:
>>> On Sun, 30 Oct 2022 22:29:30 -0400, Dale <dale@dalekelly.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 10/30/2022 10:27 PM, jillery wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 30 Oct 2022 17:41:25 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
>>>>> <daud.deden@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sunday, October 30, 2022 at 4:35:20 PM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>> The following is a link to a 20-minute "Real Science" video which
>>>>>>> discusses how flight evolved at least four separate times on Earth:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZaZAH2WHAY>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I guess just flapping-powered flight.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Archae, bacteria, viruses, fungal spores, plant pollen have also taken to the skies, many long before the animal kingdom even got started. I've read that they initiate formation of precipitation in the sky, rather than dust.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, flight refers to powered flight. Anything small enough
>>>>> automatically drifts in the breeze or parachutes down, no evolution
>>>>> required.
>>>>
>>>> statistical assumption/confidence ?
>>>
>>>
>>> I have no idea what the above statement is supposed to mean.
>>
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistical_assumption
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistical_inference
>>
>> as opposed to ...
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampling_(statistics)
>>
>> ???????
>
>
> Specify how your cites explain your statement.

I am just getting further into statistics, feel free to correct ...

"population" descriptions require statistical inference applied to a
"sampling"?

"sampling" alone cannot describe a "population"?

sometimes decisions have to be made?

otherwise I will reserve the opportunity to challenge descriptions

--
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On Wed, 2 Nov 2022 11:30:59 -0400, Dale <dale@dalekelly.org> wrote:

>On 11/2/2022 4:00 AM, jillery wrote:
>> On Tue, 1 Nov 2022 20:06:39 -0400, Dale <dale@dalekelly.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 10/31/2022 12:34 AM, jillery wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 30 Oct 2022 22:29:30 -0400, Dale <dale@dalekelly.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 10/30/2022 10:27 PM, jillery wrote:
>>>>>> On Sun, 30 Oct 2022 17:41:25 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
>>>>>> <daud.deden@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sunday, October 30, 2022 at 4:35:20 PM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>> The following is a link to a 20-minute "Real Science" video which
>>>>>>>> discusses how flight evolved at least four separate times on Earth:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZaZAH2WHAY>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I guess just flapping-powered flight.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Archae, bacteria, viruses, fungal spores, plant pollen have also taken to the skies, many long before the animal kingdom even got started. I've read that they initiate formation of precipitation in the sky, rather than dust.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, flight refers to powered flight. Anything small enough
>>>>>> automatically drifts in the breeze or parachutes down, no evolution
>>>>>> required.
>>>>>
>>>>> statistical assumption/confidence ?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I have no idea what the above statement is supposed to mean.
>>>
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistical_assumption
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistical_inference
>>>
>>> as opposed to ...
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampling_(statistics)
>>>
>>> ???????
>>
>>
>> Specify how your cites explain your statement.
>
>
>I am just getting further into statistics, feel free to correct ...
>
>"population" descriptions require statistical inference applied to a
>"sampling"?
>
>"sampling" alone cannot describe a "population"?
>
>sometimes decisions have to be made?
>
>otherwise I will reserve the opportunity to challenge descriptions

Feel free to take this opportunity to post a coherent challenge.

On 11/2/2022 12:05 PM, jillery wrote:
> On Wed, 2 Nov 2022 11:30:59 -0400, Dale <dale@dalekelly.org> wrote:
>
>> On 11/2/2022 4:00 AM, jillery wrote:
>>> On Tue, 1 Nov 2022 20:06:39 -0400, Dale <dale@dalekelly.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 10/31/2022 12:34 AM, jillery wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 30 Oct 2022 22:29:30 -0400, Dale <dale@dalekelly.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 10/30/2022 10:27 PM, jillery wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sun, 30 Oct 2022 17:41:25 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
>>>>>>> <daud.deden@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sunday, October 30, 2022 at 4:35:20 PM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>> The following is a link to a 20-minute "Real Science" video which
>>>>>>>>> discusses how flight evolved at least four separate times on Earth:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZaZAH2WHAY>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I guess just flapping-powered flight.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Archae, bacteria, viruses, fungal spores, plant pollen have also taken to the skies, many long before the animal kingdom even got started. I've read that they initiate formation of precipitation in the sky, rather than dust.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, flight refers to powered flight. Anything small enough
>>>>>>> automatically drifts in the breeze or parachutes down, no evolution
>>>>>>> required.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> statistical assumption/confidence ?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I have no idea what the above statement is supposed to mean.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistical_assumption
>>>>
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistical_inference
>>>>
>>>> as opposed to ...
>>>>
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampling_(statistics)
>>>>
>>>> ???????
>>>
>>>
>>> Specify how your cites explain your statement.
>>
>>
>> I am just getting further into statistics, feel free to correct ...
>>
>> "population" descriptions require statistical inference applied to a
>> "sampling"?
>>
>> "sampling" alone cannot describe a "population"?
>>
>> sometimes decisions have to be made?
>>
>> otherwise I will reserve the opportunity to challenge descriptions
>

>
> Feel free to take this opportunity to post a coherent challenge.

coherent

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/coherent

--
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On Sunday, October 30, 2022 at 4:35:20 PM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
> The following is a link to a 20-minute "Real Science" video which
> discusses how flight evolved at least four separate times on Earth:
>
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZaZAH2WHAY>

It's nowhere near as good as the YouTube videos you linked in the thread
you started on bipedalism, but rather than go into its deficiencies so
close to my weekend posting break, I just address your "at least four separate times."

There has been a fifth candidate for the honor since 2015: *Yi qi*, a non-avian dinosaur.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
Excerpt:
It was a small, possibly tree-dwelling (arboreal) animal. Like other scansoriopterygids, Yi possessed an unusual, elongated third finger, that appears to have helped to support a membranous gliding plane made of skin. The planes of Yi qi were also supported by a long, bony strut attached to the wrist. This modified wrist bone and membrane-based plane is unique among all known dinosaurs, and might have resulted in wings similar in appearance to those of bats.

This webpage even shows two reconstructions of what its wings might have looked like.
It's not like any wings I've ever seen. What do you think of it?

Peter Nyikos
Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
University of South Carolina
http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos

PS here is a link to the 2015 article about Yi qi in NatureResearch:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/275669107_A_bizarre_Jurassic_maniraptoran_theropod_with_preserved_evidence_of_membranous_wings

On Friday, November 4, 2022 at 10:45:36 PM UTC-4, peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, October 30, 2022 at 4:35:20 PM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
> > The following is a link to a 20-minute "Real Science" video which
> > discusses how flight evolved at least four separate times on Earth:
> >
> > <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZaZAH2WHAY>
> It's nowhere near as good as the YouTube videos you linked in the thread
> you started on bipedalism, but rather than go into its deficiencies so
> close to my weekend posting break, I just address your "at least four separate times."
>
> There has been a fifth candidate for the honor since 2015: *Yi qi*, a non-avian dinosaur.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
> Excerpt:
> It was a small, possibly tree-dwelling (arboreal) animal. Like other scansoriopterygids, Yi possessed an unusual, elongated third finger, that appears to have helped to support a membranous gliding plane made of skin. The planes of Yi qi were also supported by a long, bony strut attached to the wrist. This modified wrist bone and membrane-based plane is unique among all known dinosaurs, and might have resulted in wings similar in appearance to those of bats.
>
> This webpage even shows two reconstructions of what its wings might have looked like.
> It's not like any wings I've ever seen. What do you think of it?
>
>
> Peter Nyikos
> Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
> University of South Carolina
> http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos
>
> PS here is a link to the 2015 article about Yi qi in NatureResearch:
> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/275669107_A_bizarre_Jurassic_maniraptoran_theropod_with_preserved_evidence_of_membranous_wings

Yi qi has the shortest genus name and shortest species name of any dinosaur..
This falconoid drone is a remarkably lifelike flapping flyer, with folding membrane wings. https://t.co/r7ulc2d1N2

On Monday, November 7, 2022 at 4:52:56 PM UTC-5, daud....@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, November 4, 2022 at 10:45:36 PM UTC-4, peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Sunday, October 30, 2022 at 4:35:20 PM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > The following is a link to a 20-minute "Real Science" video which
> > > discusses how flight evolved at least four separate times on Earth:
> > >
> > > <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZaZAH2WHAY>
> > It's nowhere near as good as the YouTube videos you linked in the thread
> > you started on bipedalism, but rather than go into its deficiencies so
> > close to my weekend posting break, I just address your "at least four separate times."
> >
> > There has been a fifth candidate for the honor since 2015: *Yi qi*, a non-avian dinosaur.
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
> > Excerpt:
> > It was a small, possibly tree-dwelling (arboreal) animal. Like other scansoriopterygids, Yi possessed an unusual, elongated third finger, that appears to have helped to support a membranous gliding plane made of skin. The planes of Yi qi were also supported by a long, bony strut attached to the wrist. This modified wrist bone and membrane-based plane is unique among all known dinosaurs, and might have resulted in wings similar in appearance to those of bats.
> >
> > This webpage even shows two reconstructions of what its wings might have looked like.
> > It's not like any wings I've ever seen. What do you think of it?

<snip to get to your words, Daud>

> Yi qi has the shortest genus name and shortest species name of any dinosaur.
> This falconoid drone is a remarkably lifelike flapping flyer, with folding membrane wings. https://t.co/r7ulc2d1N2

Great catch, Daud! freezing the video at 1:02, when it was shown in slow motion (8x slow),
reveals a bat-like wing structure that belies the bird-like tail and bird-like general impression
when it is in full flight. It would take very little to modify it to resemble one of the Yi Qi reproductions,
keeping in mind that what looks like the last finger of Yi Qi is a "styliform element":

"Unlike all other known dinosaurs, a long, pointed wrist bone known as a "styliform element", exceeding both the third finger and the ulna in length, extended backward from the forelimb bones. This styliform, an adaptation to help support the membrane, may have been a newly evolved wrist bone, or a calcified rod of cartilage. It was slightly curved and tapered at its outer end.
....
The membrane stretched between the shorter fingers, the elongated third finger, the styliform bone, and possibly connected to the torso, though the inner part of the wing membrane was not preserved in the only known fossil.[1] This would have given the animal an appearance similar to modern bats, .... However, in bats, the membrane stretches between the fingers only, no styliform wrist bone being present."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)

[1] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/275669107_A_bizarre_Jurassic_maniraptoran_theropod_with_preserved_evidence_of_membranous_wings

The life restoration by Emily Willoughby in the Wikipedia article maximizes the batlike appearance
of the wings. It suggests a possible separation of the pollex ("thumb") from the rest of the wing, as in bats.
It replaces the first two flight digits in bats (which are quite close together) with the second digit,
which is much shorter than that in bats but still gives a nice membrane structure between it and the third
and last [2], highly elongated digit. Then the styliform bone makes up for the absence of one more distal digit.

[2] Like all theropods and birds, only three digits are present in fossils. In the above scheme,
the third wing digit of Yi Qi corresponds to the fourth in bats, and the styliform bone to the fifth in bats.

Peter Nyikos
Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
Univ. of South Carolina at Columbia
http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos

On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 12:58:18 PM UTC-5, peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, November 7, 2022 at 4:52:56 PM UTC-5, daud....@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Friday, November 4, 2022 at 10:45:36 PM UTC-4, peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Sunday, October 30, 2022 at 4:35:20 PM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > The following is a link to a 20-minute "Real Science" video which
> > > > discusses how flight evolved at least four separate times on Earth:
> > > >
> > > > <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZaZAH2WHAY>
> > > It's nowhere near as good as the YouTube videos you linked in the thread
> > > you started on bipedalism, but rather than go into its deficiencies so
> > > close to my weekend posting break, I just address your "at least four separate times."
> > >
> > > There has been a fifth candidate for the honor since 2015: *Yi qi*, a non-avian dinosaur.
> > >
> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
> > > Excerpt:
> > > It was a small, possibly tree-dwelling (arboreal) animal. Like other scansoriopterygids, Yi possessed an unusual, elongated third finger, that appears to have helped to support a membranous gliding plane made of skin. The planes of Yi qi were also supported by a long, bony strut attached to the wrist. This modified wrist bone and membrane-based plane is unique among all known dinosaurs, and might have resulted in wings similar in appearance to those of bats.
> > >
> > > This webpage even shows two reconstructions of what its wings might have looked like.
> > > It's not like any wings I've ever seen. What do you think of it?
> <snip to get to your words, Daud>
> > Yi qi has the shortest genus name and shortest species name of any dinosaur.
> > This falconoid drone is a remarkably lifelike flapping flyer, with folding membrane wings. https://t.co/r7ulc2d1N2
> Great catch, Daud! freezing the video at 1:02, when it was shown in slow motion (8x slow),
> reveals a bat-like wing structure that belies the bird-like tail and bird-like general impression
> when it is in full flight. It would take very little to modify it to resemble one of the Yi Qi reproductions,
> keeping in mind that what looks like the last finger of Yi Qi is a "styliform element":
>
> "Unlike all other known dinosaurs, a long, pointed wrist bone known as a "styliform element", exceeding both the third finger and the ulna in length, extended backward from the forelimb bones. This styliform, an adaptation to help support the membrane, may have been a newly evolved wrist bone, or a calcified rod of cartilage. It was slightly curved and tapered at its outer end.
> ...
> The membrane stretched between the shorter fingers, the elongated third finger, the styliform bone, and possibly connected to the torso, though the inner part of the wing membrane was not preserved in the only known fossil.[1] This would have given the animal an appearance similar to modern bats, .... However, in bats, the membrane stretches between the fingers only, no styliform wrist bone being present."
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
>
> [1] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/275669107_A_bizarre_Jurassic_maniraptoran_theropod_with_preserved_evidence_of_membranous_wings
>
> The life restoration by Emily Willoughby in the Wikipedia article maximizes the batlike appearance
> of the wings. It suggests a possible separation of the pollex ("thumb") from the rest of the wing, as in bats.
> It replaces the first two flight digits in bats (which are quite close together) with the second digit,
> which is much shorter than that in bats but still gives a nice membrane structure between it and the third
> and last [2], highly elongated digit. Then the styliform bone makes up for the absence of one more distal digit.
>
> [2] Like all theropods and birds, only three digits are present in fossils. In the above scheme,
> the third wing digit of Yi Qi corresponds to the fourth in bats, and the styliform bone to the fifth in bats.
> Peter Nyikos
> Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
> Univ. of South Carolina at Columbia
> http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos
Thanks, bit by bit we get closer to what early flight was like. Perhaps it started as small treebranch climbers leapt between twigs (eg. monkeys, bush babies) or bridged between twigs (eg. hominoids, spider monkeys)?

On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 4:01:58 AM UTC-8, daud....@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 12:58:18 PM UTC-5, peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Monday, November 7, 2022 at 4:52:56 PM UTC-5, daud....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Friday, November 4, 2022 at 10:45:36 PM UTC-4, peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, October 30, 2022 at 4:35:20 PM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > The following is a link to a 20-minute "Real Science" video which
> > > > > discusses how flight evolved at least four separate times on Earth:
> > > > >
> > > > > <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZaZAH2WHAY>
> > > > It's nowhere near as good as the YouTube videos you linked in the thread
> > > > you started on bipedalism, but rather than go into its deficiencies so
> > > > close to my weekend posting break, I just address your "at least four separate times."
> > > >
> > > > There has been a fifth candidate for the honor since 2015: *Yi qi*, a non-avian dinosaur.
> > > >
> > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
> > > > Excerpt:
> > > > It was a small, possibly tree-dwelling (arboreal) animal. Like other scansoriopterygids, Yi possessed an unusual, elongated third finger, that appears to have helped to support a membranous gliding plane made of skin. The planes of Yi qi were also supported by a long, bony strut attached to the wrist. This modified wrist bone and membrane-based plane is unique among all known dinosaurs, and might have resulted in wings similar in appearance to those of bats.
> > > >
> > > > This webpage even shows two reconstructions of what its wings might have looked like.
> > > > It's not like any wings I've ever seen. What do you think of it?
> > <snip to get to your words, Daud>
> > > Yi qi has the shortest genus name and shortest species name of any dinosaur.
> > > This falconoid drone is a remarkably lifelike flapping flyer, with folding membrane wings. https://t.co/r7ulc2d1N2
> > Great catch, Daud! freezing the video at 1:02, when it was shown in slow motion (8x slow),
> > reveals a bat-like wing structure that belies the bird-like tail and bird-like general impression
> > when it is in full flight. It would take very little to modify it to resemble one of the Yi Qi reproductions,
> > keeping in mind that what looks like the last finger of Yi Qi is a "styliform element":
> >
> > "Unlike all other known dinosaurs, a long, pointed wrist bone known as a "styliform element", exceeding both the third finger and the ulna in length, extended backward from the forelimb bones. This styliform, an adaptation to help support the membrane, may have been a newly evolved wrist bone, or a calcified rod of cartilage. It was slightly curved and tapered at its outer end.
> > ...
> > The membrane stretched between the shorter fingers, the elongated third finger, the styliform bone, and possibly connected to the torso, though the inner part of the wing membrane was not preserved in the only known fossil.[1] This would have given the animal an appearance similar to modern bats, ... However, in bats, the membrane stretches between the fingers only, no styliform wrist bone being present."
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
> >
> > [1] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/275669107_A_bizarre_Jurassic_maniraptoran_theropod_with_preserved_evidence_of_membranous_wings
> >
> > The life restoration by Emily Willoughby in the Wikipedia article maximizes the batlike appearance
> > of the wings. It suggests a possible separation of the pollex ("thumb") from the rest of the wing, as in bats.
> > It replaces the first two flight digits in bats (which are quite close together) with the second digit,
> > which is much shorter than that in bats but still gives a nice membrane structure between it and the third
> > and last [2], highly elongated digit. Then the styliform bone makes up for the absence of one more distal digit.
> >
> > [2] Like all theropods and birds, only three digits are present in fossils. In the above scheme,
> > the third wing digit of Yi Qi corresponds to the fourth in bats, and the styliform bone to the fifth in bats.
> > Peter Nyikos
> > Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
> > Univ. of South Carolina at Columbia
> > http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos
> Thanks, bit by bit we get closer to what early flight was like. Perhaps it started as small treebranch climbers leapt between twigs (eg. monkeys, bush babies) or bridged between twigs (eg. hominoids, spider monkeys)?

Primates are in the process of evolving flight capability? Well, dinosaurs managed it, but the image of brachiating dinosaurs boggles the mind.

On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 10:32:58 AM UTC-5, erik simpson wrote:
> On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 4:01:58 AM UTC-8, daud....@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 12:58:18 PM UTC-5, peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Monday, November 7, 2022 at 4:52:56 PM UTC-5, daud....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Friday, November 4, 2022 at 10:45:36 PM UTC-4, peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > On Sunday, October 30, 2022 at 4:35:20 PM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > The following is a link to a 20-minute "Real Science" video which
> > > > > > discusses how flight evolved at least four separate times on Earth:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZaZAH2WHAY>
> > > > > It's nowhere near as good as the YouTube videos you linked in the thread
> > > > > you started on bipedalism, but rather than go into its deficiencies so
> > > > > close to my weekend posting break, I just address your "at least four separate times."
> > > > >
> > > > > There has been a fifth candidate for the honor since 2015: *Yi qi*, a non-avian dinosaur.
> > > > >
> > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
> > > > > Excerpt:
> > > > > It was a small, possibly tree-dwelling (arboreal) animal. Like other scansoriopterygids, Yi possessed an unusual, elongated third finger, that appears to have helped to support a membranous gliding plane made of skin. The planes of Yi qi were also supported by a long, bony strut attached to the wrist. This modified wrist bone and membrane-based plane is unique among all known dinosaurs, and might have resulted in wings similar in appearance to those of bats.
> > > > >
> > > > > This webpage even shows two reconstructions of what its wings might have looked like.
> > > > > It's not like any wings I've ever seen. What do you think of it?
> > > <snip to get to your words, Daud>
> > > > Yi qi has the shortest genus name and shortest species name of any dinosaur.
> > > > This falconoid drone is a remarkably lifelike flapping flyer, with folding membrane wings. https://t.co/r7ulc2d1N2
> > > Great catch, Daud! freezing the video at 1:02, when it was shown in slow motion (8x slow),
> > > reveals a bat-like wing structure that belies the bird-like tail and bird-like general impression
> > > when it is in full flight. It would take very little to modify it to resemble one of the Yi Qi reproductions,
> > > keeping in mind that what looks like the last finger of Yi Qi is a "styliform element":
> > >
> > > "Unlike all other known dinosaurs, a long, pointed wrist bone known as a "styliform element", exceeding both the third finger and the ulna in length, extended backward from the forelimb bones. This styliform, an adaptation to help support the membrane, may have been a newly evolved wrist bone, or a calcified rod of cartilage. It was slightly curved and tapered at its outer end.
> > > ...
> > > The membrane stretched between the shorter fingers, the elongated third finger, the styliform bone, and possibly connected to the torso, though the inner part of the wing membrane was not preserved in the only known fossil.[1] This would have given the animal an appearance similar to modern bats, ... However, in bats, the membrane stretches between the fingers only, no styliform wrist bone being present."
> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
> > >
> > > [1] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/275669107_A_bizarre_Jurassic_maniraptoran_theropod_with_preserved_evidence_of_membranous_wings
> > >
> > > The life restoration by Emily Willoughby in the Wikipedia article maximizes the batlike appearance
> > > of the wings. It suggests a possible separation of the pollex ("thumb") from the rest of the wing, as in bats.
> > > It replaces the first two flight digits in bats (which are quite close together) with the second digit,
> > > which is much shorter than that in bats but still gives a nice membrane structure between it and the third
> > > and last [2], highly elongated digit. Then the styliform bone makes up for the absence of one more distal digit.
> > >
> > > [2] Like all theropods and birds, only three digits are present in fossils. In the above scheme,
> > > the third wing digit of Yi Qi corresponds to the fourth in bats, and the styliform bone to the fifth in bats.
> > > Peter Nyikos
> > > Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
> > > Univ. of South Carolina at Columbia
> > > http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos
> > Thanks, bit by bit we get closer to what early flight was like. Perhaps it started as small treebranch climbers leapt between twigs (eg. monkeys, bush babies) or bridged between twigs (eg. hominoids, spider monkeys)?
> Primates are in the process of evolving flight capability? Well, dinosaurs managed it, but the image of brachiating dinosaurs boggles the mind.
:~}
Just you wait! We'll find them somewhere in Tibet!

On Monday, November 7, 2022 at 4:52:56 PM UTC-5, Daud Deden wrote:
> On Friday, November 4, 2022 at 10:45:36 PM UTC-4, peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Sunday, October 30, 2022 at 4:35:20 PM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > The following is a link to a 20-minute "Real Science" video which
> > > discusses how flight evolved at least four separate times on Earth:
> > >
> > > <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZaZAH2WHAY>
> > It's nowhere near as good as the YouTube videos you linked in the thread
> > you started on bipedalism, but rather than go into its deficiencies so
> > close to my weekend posting break, I just address your "at least four separate times."
> >
> > There has been a fifth candidate for the honor since 2015: *Yi qi*, a non-avian dinosaur.
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
> > Excerpt:
> > It was a small, possibly tree-dwelling (arboreal) animal. Like other scansoriopterygids, Yi possessed an unusual, elongated third finger, that appears to have helped to support a membranous gliding plane made of skin. The planes of Yi qi were also supported by a long, bony strut attached to the wrist. This modified wrist bone and membrane-based plane is unique among all known dinosaurs, and might have resulted in wings similar in appearance to those of bats.
> >
> > This webpage even shows two reconstructions of what its wings might have looked like.
> > It's not like any wings I've ever seen. What do you think of it?
> >
> >
> > Peter Nyikos
> > Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
> > University of South Carolina
> > http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos
> >
> > PS here is a link to the 2015 article about Yi qi in NatureResearch:
> > https://www.researchgate.net/publication/275669107_A_bizarre_Jurassic_maniraptoran_theropod_with_preserved_evidence_of_membranous_wings
> Yi qi has the shortest genus name and shortest species name of any dinosaur.
> This falconoid drone is a remarkably lifelike flapping flyer, with folding membrane wings. https://t.co/r7ulc2d1N2
- Manta ray butterfly bot flies fast or dextrously: https://techxplore.com/news/2022-11-butterfly-bot-fastest-soft-robot.html

On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 10:32:58 AM UTC-5, erik simpson wrote:
> On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 4:01:58 AM UTC-8, daud....@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 12:58:18 PM UTC-5, peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Monday, November 7, 2022 at 4:52:56 PM UTC-5, daud....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Friday, November 4, 2022 at 10:45:36 PM UTC-4, peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > On Sunday, October 30, 2022 at 4:35:20 PM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > The following is a link to a 20-minute "Real Science" video which
> > > > > > discusses how flight evolved at least four separate times on Earth:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZaZAH2WHAY>
> > > > > It's nowhere near as good as the YouTube videos you linked in the thread
> > > > > you started on bipedalism, but rather than go into its deficiencies so
> > > > > close to my weekend posting break, I just address your "at least four separate times."
> > > > >
> > > > > There has been a fifth candidate for the honor since 2015: *Yi qi*, a non-avian dinosaur.
> > > > >
> > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
> > > > > Excerpt:
> > > > > It was a small, possibly tree-dwelling (arboreal) animal. Like other scansoriopterygids, Yi possessed an unusual, elongated third finger, that appears to have helped to support a membranous gliding plane made of skin. The planes of Yi qi were also supported by a long, bony strut attached to the wrist. This modified wrist bone and membrane-based plane is unique among all known dinosaurs, and might have resulted in wings similar in appearance to those of bats.
> > > > >
> > > > > This webpage even shows two reconstructions of what its wings might have looked like.
> > > > > It's not like any wings I've ever seen. What do you think of it?
> > > <snip to get to your words, Daud>
> > > > Yi qi has the shortest genus name and shortest species name of any dinosaur.
> > > > This falconoid drone is a remarkably lifelike flapping flyer, with folding membrane wings. https://t.co/r7ulc2d1N2
> > > Great catch, Daud! freezing the video at 1:02, when it was shown in slow motion (8x slow),
> > > reveals a bat-like wing structure that belies the bird-like tail and bird-like general impression
> > > when it is in full flight. It would take very little to modify it to resemble one of the Yi Qi reproductions,
> > > keeping in mind that what looks like the last finger of Yi Qi is a "styliform element":
> > >
> > > "Unlike all other known dinosaurs, a long, pointed wrist bone known as a "styliform element", exceeding both the third finger and the ulna in length, extended backward from the forelimb bones. This styliform, an adaptation to help support the membrane, may have been a newly evolved wrist bone, or a calcified rod of cartilage. It was slightly curved and tapered at its outer end.
> > > ...
> > > The membrane stretched between the shorter fingers, the elongated third finger, the styliform bone, and possibly connected to the torso, though the inner part of the wing membrane was not preserved in the only known fossil.[1] This would have given the animal an appearance similar to modern bats, ... However, in bats, the membrane stretches between the fingers only, no styliform wrist bone being present."
> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
> > >
> > > [1] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/275669107_A_bizarre_Jurassic_maniraptoran_theropod_with_preserved_evidence_of_membranous_wings
> > >
> > > The life restoration by Emily Willoughby in the Wikipedia article maximizes the batlike appearance
> > > of the wings. It suggests a possible separation of the pollex ("thumb") from the rest of the wing, as in bats.
> > > It replaces the first two flight digits in bats (which are quite close together) with the second digit,
> > > which is much shorter than that in bats but still gives a nice membrane structure between it and the third
> > > and last [2], highly elongated digit. Then the styliform bone makes up for the absence of one more distal digit.
> > >
> > > [2] Like all theropods and birds, only three digits are present in fossils. In the above scheme,
> > > the third wing digit of Yi Qi corresponds to the fourth in bats, and the styliform bone to the fifth in bats.
> > > Peter Nyikos
> > > Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
> > > Univ. of South Carolina at Columbia
> > > http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos
> > Thanks, bit by bit we get closer to what early flight was like. Perhaps it started as small treebranch climbers leapt between twigs (eg. monkeys, bush babies) or bridged between twigs (eg. hominoids, spider monkeys)?
> Primates are in the process of evolving flight capability? Well, dinosaurs managed it, but the image of brachiating dinosaurs boggles the mind.

Actually, a hoatzin chick climbing trees with wing claws, if the forest was twice as thick with lianas & canopy vegetation, might be selected against flight and towards brachiation with a few favorable mutations, reduced wing feathers, broader chest, alternative strokes, longer hook claws. Already bipedal, arboreal, frugivorous like gibbons, same tropical environment as spider monkeys, already warm-blooded. Not too much reengineering required?

On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 12:56:20 AM UTC-8, daud....@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 10:32:58 AM UTC-5, erik simpson wrote:
> > On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 4:01:58 AM UTC-8, daud....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 12:58:18 PM UTC-5, peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Monday, November 7, 2022 at 4:52:56 PM UTC-5, daud....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > On Friday, November 4, 2022 at 10:45:36 PM UTC-4, peter2...@gmail..com wrote:
> > > > > > On Sunday, October 30, 2022 at 4:35:20 PM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > The following is a link to a 20-minute "Real Science" video which
> > > > > > > discusses how flight evolved at least four separate times on Earth:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZaZAH2WHAY>
> > > > > > It's nowhere near as good as the YouTube videos you linked in the thread
> > > > > > you started on bipedalism, but rather than go into its deficiencies so
> > > > > > close to my weekend posting break, I just address your "at least four separate times."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There has been a fifth candidate for the honor since 2015: *Yi qi*, a non-avian dinosaur.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
> > > > > > Excerpt:
> > > > > > It was a small, possibly tree-dwelling (arboreal) animal. Like other scansoriopterygids, Yi possessed an unusual, elongated third finger, that appears to have helped to support a membranous gliding plane made of skin. The planes of Yi qi were also supported by a long, bony strut attached to the wrist. This modified wrist bone and membrane-based plane is unique among all known dinosaurs, and might have resulted in wings similar in appearance to those of bats.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This webpage even shows two reconstructions of what its wings might have looked like.
> > > > > > It's not like any wings I've ever seen. What do you think of it?
> > > > <snip to get to your words, Daud>
> > > > > Yi qi has the shortest genus name and shortest species name of any dinosaur.
> > > > > This falconoid drone is a remarkably lifelike flapping flyer, with folding membrane wings. https://t.co/r7ulc2d1N2
> > > > Great catch, Daud! freezing the video at 1:02, when it was shown in slow motion (8x slow),
> > > > reveals a bat-like wing structure that belies the bird-like tail and bird-like general impression
> > > > when it is in full flight. It would take very little to modify it to resemble one of the Yi Qi reproductions,
> > > > keeping in mind that what looks like the last finger of Yi Qi is a "styliform element":
> > > >
> > > > "Unlike all other known dinosaurs, a long, pointed wrist bone known as a "styliform element", exceeding both the third finger and the ulna in length, extended backward from the forelimb bones. This styliform, an adaptation to help support the membrane, may have been a newly evolved wrist bone, or a calcified rod of cartilage. It was slightly curved and tapered at its outer end.
> > > > ...
> > > > The membrane stretched between the shorter fingers, the elongated third finger, the styliform bone, and possibly connected to the torso, though the inner part of the wing membrane was not preserved in the only known fossil.[1] This would have given the animal an appearance similar to modern bats, ... However, in bats, the membrane stretches between the fingers only, no styliform wrist bone being present."
> > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
> > > >
> > > > [1] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/275669107_A_bizarre_Jurassic_maniraptoran_theropod_with_preserved_evidence_of_membranous_wings
> > > >
> > > > The life restoration by Emily Willoughby in the Wikipedia article maximizes the batlike appearance
> > > > of the wings. It suggests a possible separation of the pollex ("thumb") from the rest of the wing, as in bats.
> > > > It replaces the first two flight digits in bats (which are quite close together) with the second digit,
> > > > which is much shorter than that in bats but still gives a nice membrane structure between it and the third
> > > > and last [2], highly elongated digit. Then the styliform bone makes up for the absence of one more distal digit.
> > > >
> > > > [2] Like all theropods and birds, only three digits are present in fossils. In the above scheme,
> > > > the third wing digit of Yi Qi corresponds to the fourth in bats, and the styliform bone to the fifth in bats.
> > > > Peter Nyikos
> > > > Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
> > > > Univ. of South Carolina at Columbia
> > > > http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos
> > > Thanks, bit by bit we get closer to what early flight was like. Perhaps it started as small treebranch climbers leapt between twigs (eg. monkeys, bush babies) or bridged between twigs (eg. hominoids, spider monkeys)?
> > Primates are in the process of evolving flight capability? Well, dinosaurs managed it, but the image of brachiating dinosaurs boggles the mind.
> Actually, a hoatzin chick climbing trees with wing claws, if the forest was twice as thick with lianas & canopy vegetation, might be selected against flight and towards brachiation with a few favorable mutations, reduced wing feathers, broader chest, alternative strokes, longer hook claws. Already bipedal, arboreal, frugivorous like gibbons, same tropical environment as spider monkeys, already warm-blooded. Not too much reengineering required?

Bipedality in mammals vs. dinosaurs evolved via very different paths and the resulting postures are not remotely similar.
Requesting a "few favorable mutations" to turn a hoatzin into something resembling a brachiating lesser ape doesn't
look parsimonious to me.

On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 12:14:48 PM UTC-5, erik simpson wrote:
> On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 12:56:20 AM UTC-8, daud....@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 10:32:58 AM UTC-5, erik simpson wrote:
> > > On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 4:01:58 AM UTC-8, daud....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 12:58:18 PM UTC-5, peter2...@gmail..com wrote:
> > > > > On Monday, November 7, 2022 at 4:52:56 PM UTC-5, daud....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > On Friday, November 4, 2022 at 10:45:36 PM UTC-4, peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > On Sunday, October 30, 2022 at 4:35:20 PM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > The following is a link to a 20-minute "Real Science" video which
> > > > > > > > discusses how flight evolved at least four separate times on Earth:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZaZAH2WHAY>
> > > > > > > It's nowhere near as good as the YouTube videos you linked in the thread
> > > > > > > you started on bipedalism, but rather than go into its deficiencies so
> > > > > > > close to my weekend posting break, I just address your "at least four separate times."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > There has been a fifth candidate for the honor since 2015: *Yi qi*, a non-avian dinosaur.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
> > > > > > > Excerpt:
> > > > > > > It was a small, possibly tree-dwelling (arboreal) animal. Like other scansoriopterygids, Yi possessed an unusual, elongated third finger, that appears to have helped to support a membranous gliding plane made of skin. The planes of Yi qi were also supported by a long, bony strut attached to the wrist. This modified wrist bone and membrane-based plane is unique among all known dinosaurs, and might have resulted in wings similar in appearance to those of bats.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > This webpage even shows two reconstructions of what its wings might have looked like.
> > > > > > > It's not like any wings I've ever seen. What do you think of it?
> > > > > <snip to get to your words, Daud>
> > > > > > Yi qi has the shortest genus name and shortest species name of any dinosaur.
> > > > > > This falconoid drone is a remarkably lifelike flapping flyer, with folding membrane wings. https://t.co/r7ulc2d1N2
> > > > > Great catch, Daud! freezing the video at 1:02, when it was shown in slow motion (8x slow),
> > > > > reveals a bat-like wing structure that belies the bird-like tail and bird-like general impression
> > > > > when it is in full flight. It would take very little to modify it to resemble one of the Yi Qi reproductions,
> > > > > keeping in mind that what looks like the last finger of Yi Qi is a "styliform element":
> > > > >
> > > > > "Unlike all other known dinosaurs, a long, pointed wrist bone known as a "styliform element", exceeding both the third finger and the ulna in length, extended backward from the forelimb bones. This styliform, an adaptation to help support the membrane, may have been a newly evolved wrist bone, or a calcified rod of cartilage. It was slightly curved and tapered at its outer end.
> > > > > ...
> > > > > The membrane stretched between the shorter fingers, the elongated third finger, the styliform bone, and possibly connected to the torso, though the inner part of the wing membrane was not preserved in the only known fossil.[1] This would have given the animal an appearance similar to modern bats, ... However, in bats, the membrane stretches between the fingers only, no styliform wrist bone being present."
> > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
> > > > >
> > > > > [1] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/275669107_A_bizarre_Jurassic_maniraptoran_theropod_with_preserved_evidence_of_membranous_wings
> > > > >
> > > > > The life restoration by Emily Willoughby in the Wikipedia article maximizes the batlike appearance
> > > > > of the wings. It suggests a possible separation of the pollex ("thumb") from the rest of the wing, as in bats.
> > > > > It replaces the first two flight digits in bats (which are quite close together) with the second digit,
> > > > > which is much shorter than that in bats but still gives a nice membrane structure between it and the third
> > > > > and last [2], highly elongated digit. Then the styliform bone makes up for the absence of one more distal digit.
> > > > >
> > > > > [2] Like all theropods and birds, only three digits are present in fossils. In the above scheme,
> > > > > the third wing digit of Yi Qi corresponds to the fourth in bats, and the styliform bone to the fifth in bats.
> > > > > Peter Nyikos
> > > > > Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
> > > > > Univ. of South Carolina at Columbia
> > > > > http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos
> > > > Thanks, bit by bit we get closer to what early flight was like. Perhaps it started as small treebranch climbers leapt between twigs (eg. monkeys, bush babies) or bridged between twigs (eg. hominoids, spider monkeys)?
> > > Primates are in the process of evolving flight capability? Well, dinosaurs managed it, but the image of brachiating dinosaurs boggles the mind.
> > Actually, a hoatzin chick climbing trees with wing claws, if the forest was twice as thick with lianas & canopy vegetation, might be selected against flight and towards brachiation with a few favorable mutations, reduced wing feathers, broader chest, alternative strokes, longer hook claws. Already bipedal, arboreal, frugivorous like gibbons, same tropical environment as spider monkeys, already warm-blooded. Not too much reengineering required?
> Bipedality in mammals vs. dinosaurs evolved via very different paths and the resulting postures are not remotely similar.
> Requesting a "few favorable mutations" to turn a hoatzin into something resembling a brachiating lesser ape doesn't
> look parsimonious to me.

Actually I think it will be very doable, in the genetic engineering sense, maybe in 25 years if the cause were to be well funded. Not that a brachiating hoatzin would look very gibbonish, but functionally I don't foresee much difficulty. Both gibbons and hoatzins are bipedal on branches with grasping feet, both already have curved appendages, both have generally similar facial features. Hoatzins have broader fields of vision, easily corrected.

On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 11:57:44 AM UTC-8, daud....@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 12:14:48 PM UTC-5, erik simpson wrote:
> > On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 12:56:20 AM UTC-8, daud....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 10:32:58 AM UTC-5, erik simpson wrote:
> > > > On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 4:01:58 AM UTC-8, daud....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 12:58:18 PM UTC-5, peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > On Monday, November 7, 2022 at 4:52:56 PM UTC-5, daud....@gmail..com wrote:
> > > > > > > On Friday, November 4, 2022 at 10:45:36 PM UTC-4, peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Sunday, October 30, 2022 at 4:35:20 PM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > > The following is a link to a 20-minute "Real Science" video which
> > > > > > > > > discusses how flight evolved at least four separate times on Earth:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZaZAH2WHAY>
> > > > > > > > It's nowhere near as good as the YouTube videos you linked in the thread
> > > > > > > > you started on bipedalism, but rather than go into its deficiencies so
> > > > > > > > close to my weekend posting break, I just address your "at least four separate times."
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > There has been a fifth candidate for the honor since 2015: *Yi qi*, a non-avian dinosaur.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
> > > > > > > > Excerpt:
> > > > > > > > It was a small, possibly tree-dwelling (arboreal) animal. Like other scansoriopterygids, Yi possessed an unusual, elongated third finger, that appears to have helped to support a membranous gliding plane made of skin. The planes of Yi qi were also supported by a long, bony strut attached to the wrist. This modified wrist bone and membrane-based plane is unique among all known dinosaurs, and might have resulted in wings similar in appearance to those of bats.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > This webpage even shows two reconstructions of what its wings might have looked like.
> > > > > > > > It's not like any wings I've ever seen. What do you think of it?
> > > > > > <snip to get to your words, Daud>
> > > > > > > Yi qi has the shortest genus name and shortest species name of any dinosaur.
> > > > > > > This falconoid drone is a remarkably lifelike flapping flyer, with folding membrane wings. https://t.co/r7ulc2d1N2
> > > > > > Great catch, Daud! freezing the video at 1:02, when it was shown in slow motion (8x slow),
> > > > > > reveals a bat-like wing structure that belies the bird-like tail and bird-like general impression
> > > > > > when it is in full flight. It would take very little to modify it to resemble one of the Yi Qi reproductions,
> > > > > > keeping in mind that what looks like the last finger of Yi Qi is a "styliform element":
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Unlike all other known dinosaurs, a long, pointed wrist bone known as a "styliform element", exceeding both the third finger and the ulna in length, extended backward from the forelimb bones. This styliform, an adaptation to help support the membrane, may have been a newly evolved wrist bone, or a calcified rod of cartilage. It was slightly curved and tapered at its outer end.
> > > > > > ...
> > > > > > The membrane stretched between the shorter fingers, the elongated third finger, the styliform bone, and possibly connected to the torso, though the inner part of the wing membrane was not preserved in the only known fossil.[1] This would have given the animal an appearance similar to modern bats, ... However, in bats, the membrane stretches between the fingers only, no styliform wrist bone being present."
> > > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > [1] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/275669107_A_bizarre_Jurassic_maniraptoran_theropod_with_preserved_evidence_of_membranous_wings
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The life restoration by Emily Willoughby in the Wikipedia article maximizes the batlike appearance
> > > > > > of the wings. It suggests a possible separation of the pollex ("thumb") from the rest of the wing, as in bats.
> > > > > > It replaces the first two flight digits in bats (which are quite close together) with the second digit,
> > > > > > which is much shorter than that in bats but still gives a nice membrane structure between it and the third
> > > > > > and last [2], highly elongated digit. Then the styliform bone makes up for the absence of one more distal digit.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > [2] Like all theropods and birds, only three digits are present in fossils. In the above scheme,
> > > > > > the third wing digit of Yi Qi corresponds to the fourth in bats, and the styliform bone to the fifth in bats.
> > > > > > Peter Nyikos
> > > > > > Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
> > > > > > Univ. of South Carolina at Columbia
> > > > > > http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos
> > > > > Thanks, bit by bit we get closer to what early flight was like. Perhaps it started as small treebranch climbers leapt between twigs (eg. monkeys, bush babies) or bridged between twigs (eg. hominoids, spider monkeys)?
> > > > Primates are in the process of evolving flight capability? Well, dinosaurs managed it, but the image of brachiating dinosaurs boggles the mind..
> > > Actually, a hoatzin chick climbing trees with wing claws, if the forest was twice as thick with lianas & canopy vegetation, might be selected against flight and towards brachiation with a few favorable mutations, reduced wing feathers, broader chest, alternative strokes, longer hook claws. Already bipedal, arboreal, frugivorous like gibbons, same tropical environment as spider monkeys, already warm-blooded. Not too much reengineering required?
> > Bipedality in mammals vs. dinosaurs evolved via very different paths and the resulting postures are not remotely similar.
> > Requesting a "few favorable mutations" to turn a hoatzin into something resembling a brachiating lesser ape doesn't
> > look parsimonious to me.
> Actually I think it will be very doable, in the genetic engineering sense, maybe in 25 years if the cause were to be well funded. Not that a brachiating hoatzin would look very gibbonish, but functionally I don't foresee much difficulty. Both gibbons and hoatzins are bipedal on branches with grasping feet, both already have curved appendages, both have generally similar facial features. Hoatzins have broader fields of vision, easily corrected.

Bipedalism is not synonymous with brachiation. "Similar facial features"?

On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 5:04:14 PM UTC-5, erik simpson wrote:
> On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 11:57:44 AM UTC-8, daud....@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 12:14:48 PM UTC-5, erik simpson wrote:
> > > On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 12:56:20 AM UTC-8, daud....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 10:32:58 AM UTC-5, erik simpson wrote:
> > > > > On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 4:01:58 AM UTC-8, daud....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 12:58:18 PM UTC-5, peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > On Monday, November 7, 2022 at 4:52:56 PM UTC-5, daud....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Friday, November 4, 2022 at 10:45:36 PM UTC-4, peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Sunday, October 30, 2022 at 4:35:20 PM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > The following is a link to a 20-minute "Real Science" video which
> > > > > > > > > > discusses how flight evolved at least four separate times on Earth:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZaZAH2WHAY>
> > > > > > > > > It's nowhere near as good as the YouTube videos you linked in the thread
> > > > > > > > > you started on bipedalism, but rather than go into its deficiencies so
> > > > > > > > > close to my weekend posting break, I just address your "at least four separate times."
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > There has been a fifth candidate for the honor since 2015: *Yi qi*, a non-avian dinosaur.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
> > > > > > > > > Excerpt:
> > > > > > > > > It was a small, possibly tree-dwelling (arboreal) animal. Like other scansoriopterygids, Yi possessed an unusual, elongated third finger, that appears to have helped to support a membranous gliding plane made of skin. The planes of Yi qi were also supported by a long, bony strut attached to the wrist. This modified wrist bone and membrane-based plane is unique among all known dinosaurs, and might have resulted in wings similar in appearance to those of bats.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > This webpage even shows two reconstructions of what its wings might have looked like.
> > > > > > > > > It's not like any wings I've ever seen. What do you think of it?
> > > > > > > <snip to get to your words, Daud>
> > > > > > > > Yi qi has the shortest genus name and shortest species name of any dinosaur.
> > > > > > > > This falconoid drone is a remarkably lifelike flapping flyer, with folding membrane wings. https://t.co/r7ulc2d1N2
> > > > > > > Great catch, Daud! freezing the video at 1:02, when it was shown in slow motion (8x slow),
> > > > > > > reveals a bat-like wing structure that belies the bird-like tail and bird-like general impression
> > > > > > > when it is in full flight. It would take very little to modify it to resemble one of the Yi Qi reproductions,
> > > > > > > keeping in mind that what looks like the last finger of Yi Qi is a "styliform element":
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Unlike all other known dinosaurs, a long, pointed wrist bone known as a "styliform element", exceeding both the third finger and the ulna in length, extended backward from the forelimb bones. This styliform, an adaptation to help support the membrane, may have been a newly evolved wrist bone, or a calcified rod of cartilage. It was slightly curved and tapered at its outer end.
> > > > > > > ...
> > > > > > > The membrane stretched between the shorter fingers, the elongated third finger, the styliform bone, and possibly connected to the torso, though the inner part of the wing membrane was not preserved in the only known fossil.[1] This would have given the animal an appearance similar to modern bats, ... However, in bats, the membrane stretches between the fingers only, no styliform wrist bone being present."
> > > > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > [1] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/275669107_A_bizarre_Jurassic_maniraptoran_theropod_with_preserved_evidence_of_membranous_wings
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The life restoration by Emily Willoughby in the Wikipedia article maximizes the batlike appearance
> > > > > > > of the wings. It suggests a possible separation of the pollex ("thumb") from the rest of the wing, as in bats.
> > > > > > > It replaces the first two flight digits in bats (which are quite close together) with the second digit,
> > > > > > > which is much shorter than that in bats but still gives a nice membrane structure between it and the third
> > > > > > > and last [2], highly elongated digit. Then the styliform bone makes up for the absence of one more distal digit.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > [2] Like all theropods and birds, only three digits are present in fossils. In the above scheme,
> > > > > > > the third wing digit of Yi Qi corresponds to the fourth in bats, and the styliform bone to the fifth in bats.
> > > > > > > Peter Nyikos
> > > > > > > Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
> > > > > > > Univ. of South Carolina at Columbia
> > > > > > > http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos
> > > > > > Thanks, bit by bit we get closer to what early flight was like. Perhaps it started as small treebranch climbers leapt between twigs (eg. monkeys, bush babies) or bridged between twigs (eg. hominoids, spider monkeys)?
> > > > > Primates are in the process of evolving flight capability? Well, dinosaurs managed it, but the image of brachiating dinosaurs boggles the mind.
> > > > Actually, a hoatzin chick climbing trees with wing claws, if the forest was twice as thick with lianas & canopy vegetation, might be selected against flight and towards brachiation with a few favorable mutations, reduced wing feathers, broader chest, alternative strokes, longer hook claws. Already bipedal, arboreal, frugivorous like gibbons, same tropical environment as spider monkeys, already warm-blooded. Not too much reengineering required?
> > > Bipedality in mammals vs. dinosaurs evolved via very different paths and the resulting postures are not remotely similar.
> > > Requesting a "few favorable mutations" to turn a hoatzin into something resembling a brachiating lesser ape doesn't
> > > look parsimonious to me.
> > Actually I think it will be very doable, in the genetic engineering sense, maybe in 25 years if the cause were to be well funded. Not that a brachiating hoatzin would look very gibbonish, but functionally I don't foresee much difficulty. Both gibbons and hoatzins are bipedal on branches with grasping feet, both already have curved appendages, both have generally similar facial features. Hoatzins have broader fields of vision, easily corrected..
> Bipedalism is not synonymous with brachiation. "Similar facial features"?

True, but hylobatids are arboreal bipeds and brachiators; chimps, gorillas & orangs are when weaned, young & active generally both arboreal bipeds & brachiators, though less predominantly so than hylobatids, when on the ground they can be bipedal but often go quadrupedal (often to prevent getting left behind by the group). Spider monkeys are pseudo-brachiators, they are generally quadrupedal except when carrying food bipedally.
Similar facial functional features in the basic bauplan, eyes, nose, mouth, ears. Unlike eg. moles with skin covered eyes.

On Sat, 19 Nov 2022 14:04:13 -0800 (PST), erik simpson
<eastside.erik@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 11:57:44 AM UTC-8, daud....@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 12:14:48 PM UTC-5, erik simpson wrote:
>> > On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 12:56:20 AM UTC-8, daud....@gmail.com wrote:
>> > > On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 10:32:58 AM UTC-5, erik simpson wrote:
>> > > > On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 4:01:58 AM UTC-8, daud....@gmail.com wrote:
>> > > > > On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 12:58:18 PM UTC-5, peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > > > > > On Monday, November 7, 2022 at 4:52:56 PM UTC-5, daud....@gmail.com wrote:
>> > > > > > > On Friday, November 4, 2022 at 10:45:36 PM UTC-4, peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > > > > > > > On Sunday, October 30, 2022 at 4:35:20 PM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > > > > > > > > The following is a link to a 20-minute "Real Science" video which
>> > > > > > > > > discusses how flight evolved at least four separate times on Earth:
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZaZAH2WHAY>
>> > > > > > > > It's nowhere near as good as the YouTube videos you linked in the thread
>> > > > > > > > you started on bipedalism, but rather than go into its deficiencies so
>> > > > > > > > close to my weekend posting break, I just address your "at least four separate times."
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > There has been a fifth candidate for the honor since 2015: *Yi qi*, a non-avian dinosaur.
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
>> > > > > > > > Excerpt:
>> > > > > > > > It was a small, possibly tree-dwelling (arboreal) animal. Like other scansoriopterygids, Yi possessed an unusual, elongated third finger, that appears to have helped to support a membranous gliding plane made of skin. The planes of Yi qi were also supported by a long, bony strut attached to the wrist. This modified wrist bone and membrane-based plane is unique among all known dinosaurs, and might have resulted in wings similar in appearance to those of bats.
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > This webpage even shows two reconstructions of what its wings might have looked like.
>> > > > > > > > It's not like any wings I've ever seen. What do you think of it?
>> > > > > > <snip to get to your words, Daud>
>> > > > > > > Yi qi has the shortest genus name and shortest species name of any dinosaur.
>> > > > > > > This falconoid drone is a remarkably lifelike flapping flyer, with folding membrane wings. https://t.co/r7ulc2d1N2
>> > > > > > Great catch, Daud! freezing the video at 1:02, when it was shown in slow motion (8x slow),
>> > > > > > reveals a bat-like wing structure that belies the bird-like tail and bird-like general impression
>> > > > > > when it is in full flight. It would take very little to modify it to resemble one of the Yi Qi reproductions,
>> > > > > > keeping in mind that what looks like the last finger of Yi Qi is a "styliform element":
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > "Unlike all other known dinosaurs, a long, pointed wrist bone known as a "styliform element", exceeding both the third finger and the ulna in length, extended backward from the forelimb bones. This styliform, an adaptation to help support the membrane, may have been a newly evolved wrist bone, or a calcified rod of cartilage. It was slightly curved and tapered at its outer end.
>> > > > > > ...
>> > > > > > The membrane stretched between the shorter fingers, the elongated third finger, the styliform bone, and possibly connected to the torso, though the inner part of the wing membrane was not preserved in the only known fossil.[1] This would have given the animal an appearance similar to modern bats, ... However, in bats, the membrane stretches between the fingers only, no styliform wrist bone being present."
>> > > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > [1] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/275669107_A_bizarre_Jurassic_maniraptoran_theropod_with_preserved_evidence_of_membranous_wings
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > The life restoration by Emily Willoughby in the Wikipedia article maximizes the batlike appearance
>> > > > > > of the wings. It suggests a possible separation of the pollex ("thumb") from the rest of the wing, as in bats.
>> > > > > > It replaces the first two flight digits in bats (which are quite close together) with the second digit,
>> > > > > > which is much shorter than that in bats but still gives a nice membrane structure between it and the third
>> > > > > > and last [2], highly elongated digit. Then the styliform bone makes up for the absence of one more distal digit.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > [2] Like all theropods and birds, only three digits are present in fossils. In the above scheme,
>> > > > > > the third wing digit of Yi Qi corresponds to the fourth in bats, and the styliform bone to the fifth in bats.
>> > > > > > Peter Nyikos
>> > > > > > Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
>> > > > > > Univ. of South Carolina at Columbia
>> > > > > > http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos
>> > > > > Thanks, bit by bit we get closer to what early flight was like. Perhaps it started as small treebranch climbers leapt between twigs (eg. monkeys, bush babies) or bridged between twigs (eg. hominoids, spider monkeys)?
>> > > > Primates are in the process of evolving flight capability? Well, dinosaurs managed it, but the image of brachiating dinosaurs boggles the mind.
>> > > Actually, a hoatzin chick climbing trees with wing claws, if the forest was twice as thick with lianas & canopy vegetation, might be selected against flight and towards brachiation with a few favorable mutations, reduced wing feathers, broader chest, alternative strokes, longer hook claws. Already bipedal, arboreal, frugivorous like gibbons, same tropical environment as spider monkeys, already warm-blooded. Not too much reengineering required?
>> > Bipedality in mammals vs. dinosaurs evolved via very different paths and the resulting postures are not remotely similar.
>> > Requesting a "few favorable mutations" to turn a hoatzin into something resembling a brachiating lesser ape doesn't
>> > look parsimonious to me.
>> Actually I think it will be very doable, in the genetic engineering sense, maybe in 25 years if the cause were to be well funded. Not that a brachiating hoatzin would look very gibbonish, but functionally I don't foresee much difficulty. Both gibbons and hoatzins are bipedal on branches with grasping feet, both already have curved appendages, both have generally similar facial features. Hoatzins have broader fields of vision, easily corrected.
>
>Bipedalism is not synonymous with brachiation. "Similar facial features"?

Daud Deden is using the same argument in two separate topics. I give
him credit for consistency.

On Sunday, November 20, 2022 at 2:01:37 AM UTC-5, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sat, 19 Nov 2022 14:04:13 -0800 (PST), erik simpson
> <eastsi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 11:57:44 AM UTC-8, daud....@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 12:14:48 PM UTC-5, erik simpson wrote:
> >> > On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 12:56:20 AM UTC-8, daud....@gmail.com wrote:
> >> > > On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 10:32:58 AM UTC-5, erik simpson wrote:
> >> > > > On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 4:01:58 AM UTC-8, daud....@gmail.com wrote:
> >> > > > > On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 12:58:18 PM UTC-5, peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> > > > > > On Monday, November 7, 2022 at 4:52:56 PM UTC-5, daud....@gmail.com wrote:
> >> > > > > > > On Friday, November 4, 2022 at 10:45:36 PM UTC-4, peter2....@gmail.com wrote:
> >> > > > > > > > On Sunday, October 30, 2022 at 4:35:20 PM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> > > > > > > > > The following is a link to a 20-minute "Real Science" video which
> >> > > > > > > > > discusses how flight evolved at least four separate times on Earth:
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZaZAH2WHAY>
> >> > > > > > > > It's nowhere near as good as the YouTube videos you linked in the thread
> >> > > > > > > > you started on bipedalism, but rather than go into its deficiencies so
> >> > > > > > > > close to my weekend posting break, I just address your "at least four separate times."
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > There has been a fifth candidate for the honor since 2015: *Yi qi*, a non-avian dinosaur.
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
> >> > > > > > > > Excerpt:
> >> > > > > > > > It was a small, possibly tree-dwelling (arboreal) animal.. Like other scansoriopterygids, Yi possessed an unusual, elongated third finger, that appears to have helped to support a membranous gliding plane made of skin. The planes of Yi qi were also supported by a long, bony strut attached to the wrist. This modified wrist bone and membrane-based plane is unique among all known dinosaurs, and might have resulted in wings similar in appearance to those of bats.
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > This webpage even shows two reconstructions of what its wings might have looked like.
> >> > > > > > > > It's not like any wings I've ever seen. What do you think of it?
> >> > > > > > <snip to get to your words, Daud>
> >> > > > > > > Yi qi has the shortest genus name and shortest species name of any dinosaur.
> >> > > > > > > This falconoid drone is a remarkably lifelike flapping flyer, with folding membrane wings. https://t.co/r7ulc2d1N2
> >> > > > > > Great catch, Daud! freezing the video at 1:02, when it was shown in slow motion (8x slow),
> >> > > > > > reveals a bat-like wing structure that belies the bird-like tail and bird-like general impression
> >> > > > > > when it is in full flight. It would take very little to modify it to resemble one of the Yi Qi reproductions,
> >> > > > > > keeping in mind that what looks like the last finger of Yi Qi is a "styliform element":
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > "Unlike all other known dinosaurs, a long, pointed wrist bone known as a "styliform element", exceeding both the third finger and the ulna in length, extended backward from the forelimb bones. This styliform, an adaptation to help support the membrane, may have been a newly evolved wrist bone, or a calcified rod of cartilage. It was slightly curved and tapered at its outer end.
> >> > > > > > ...
> >> > > > > > The membrane stretched between the shorter fingers, the elongated third finger, the styliform bone, and possibly connected to the torso, though the inner part of the wing membrane was not preserved in the only known fossil.[1] This would have given the animal an appearance similar to modern bats, ... However, in bats, the membrane stretches between the fingers only, no styliform wrist bone being present."
> >> > > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > [1] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/275669107_A_bizarre_Jurassic_maniraptoran_theropod_with_preserved_evidence_of_membranous_wings
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > The life restoration by Emily Willoughby in the Wikipedia article maximizes the batlike appearance
> >> > > > > > of the wings. It suggests a possible separation of the pollex ("thumb") from the rest of the wing, as in bats.
> >> > > > > > It replaces the first two flight digits in bats (which are quite close together) with the second digit,
> >> > > > > > which is much shorter than that in bats but still gives a nice membrane structure between it and the third
> >> > > > > > and last [2], highly elongated digit. Then the styliform bone makes up for the absence of one more distal digit.
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > [2] Like all theropods and birds, only three digits are present in fossils. In the above scheme,
> >> > > > > > the third wing digit of Yi Qi corresponds to the fourth in bats, and the styliform bone to the fifth in bats.
> >> > > > > > Peter Nyikos
> >> > > > > > Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
> >> > > > > > Univ. of South Carolina at Columbia
> >> > > > > > http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos
> >> > > > > Thanks, bit by bit we get closer to what early flight was like.. Perhaps it started as small treebranch climbers leapt between twigs (eg. monkeys, bush babies) or bridged between twigs (eg. hominoids, spider monkeys)?
> >> > > > Primates are in the process of evolving flight capability? Well, dinosaurs managed it, but the image of brachiating dinosaurs boggles the mind.
> >> > > Actually, a hoatzin chick climbing trees with wing claws, if the forest was twice as thick with lianas & canopy vegetation, might be selected against flight and towards brachiation with a few favorable mutations, reduced wing feathers, broader chest, alternative strokes, longer hook claws. Already bipedal, arboreal, frugivorous like gibbons, same tropical environment as spider monkeys, already warm-blooded. Not too much reengineering required?
> >> > Bipedality in mammals vs. dinosaurs evolved via very different paths and the resulting postures are not remotely similar.
> >> > Requesting a "few favorable mutations" to turn a hoatzin into something resembling a brachiating lesser ape doesn't
> >> > look parsimonious to me.
> >> Actually I think it will be very doable, in the genetic engineering sense, maybe in 25 years if the cause were to be well funded. Not that a brachiating hoatzin would look very gibbonish, but functionally I don't foresee much difficulty. Both gibbons and hoatzins are bipedal on branches with grasping feet, both already have curved appendages, both have generally similar facial features. Hoatzins have broader fields of vision, easily corrected.
> >
> >Bipedalism is not synonymous with brachiation. "Similar facial features"?
> Daud Deden is using the same argument in two separate topics. I give
> him credit for consistency.
It started with Pandora at SAP, just kind of drifted here.