On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 3:56:20 AM UTC-5, Daud Deden wrote:
> On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 10:32:58 AM UTC-5, erik simpson wrote:
> > On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 4:01:58 AM UTC-8, daud....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 12:58:18 PM UTC-5, peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Monday, November 7, 2022 at 4:52:56 PM UTC-5, daud....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > On Friday, November 4, 2022 at 10:45:36 PM UTC-4, peter2...@gmail..com wrote:
> > > > > > On Sunday, October 30, 2022 at 4:35:20 PM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > The following is a link to a 20-minute "Real Science" video which
> > > > > > > discusses how flight evolved at least four separate times on Earth:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZaZAH2WHAY>
> > > > > > It's nowhere near as good as the YouTube videos you linked in the thread
> > > > > > you started on bipedalism, but rather than go into its deficiencies so
> > > > > > close to my weekend posting break, I just address your "at least four separate times."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There has been a fifth candidate for the honor since 2015: *Yi qi*, a non-avian dinosaur.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
> > > > > > Excerpt:
> > > > > > It was a small, possibly tree-dwelling (arboreal) animal. Like other scansoriopterygids, Yi possessed an unusual, elongated third finger, that appears to have helped to support a membranous gliding plane made of skin. The planes of Yi qi were also supported by a long, bony strut attached to the wrist. This modified wrist bone and membrane-based plane is unique among all known dinosaurs, and might have resulted in wings similar in appearance to those of bats.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This webpage even shows two reconstructions of what its wings might have looked like.
> > > > > > It's not like any wings I've ever seen. What do you think of it?
> > > > <snip to get to your words, Daud>
> > > > > Yi qi has the shortest genus name and shortest species name of any dinosaur.
> > > > > This falconoid drone is a remarkably lifelike flapping flyer, with folding membrane wings. https://t.co/r7ulc2d1N2
> > > > Great catch, Daud! freezing the video at 1:02, when it was shown in slow motion (8x slow),
> > > > reveals a bat-like wing structure that belies the bird-like tail and bird-like general impression
> > > > when it is in full flight. It would take very little to modify it to resemble one of the Yi Qi reproductions,
> > > > keeping in mind that what looks like the last finger of Yi Qi is a "styliform element":
> > > >
> > > > "Unlike all other known dinosaurs, a long, pointed wrist bone known as a "styliform element", exceeding both the third finger and the ulna in length, extended backward from the forelimb bones. This styliform, an adaptation to help support the membrane, may have been a newly evolved wrist bone, or a calcified rod of cartilage. It was slightly curved and tapered at its outer end.
> > > > ...
> > > > The membrane stretched between the shorter fingers, the elongated third finger, the styliform bone, and possibly connected to the torso, though the inner part of the wing membrane was not preserved in the only known fossil.[1] This would have given the animal an appearance similar to modern bats, ... However, in bats, the membrane stretches between the fingers only, no styliform wrist bone being present."
> > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
> > > >
> > > > [1] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/275669107_A_bizarre_Jurassic_maniraptoran_theropod_with_preserved_evidence_of_membranous_wings
> > > >
> > > > The life restoration by Emily Willoughby in the Wikipedia article maximizes the batlike appearance
> > > > of the wings. It suggests a possible separation of the pollex ("thumb") from the rest of the wing, as in bats.
> > > > It replaces the first two flight digits in bats (which are quite close together) with the second digit,
> > > > which is much shorter than that in bats but still gives a nice membrane structure between it and the third
> > > > and last [2], highly elongated digit. Then the styliform bone makes up for the absence of one more distal digit.
> > > >
> > > > [2] Like all theropods and birds, only three digits are present in fossils. In the above scheme,
> > > > the third wing digit of Yi Qi corresponds to the fourth in bats, and the styliform bone to the fifth in bats.
> > > > Peter Nyikos
> > > > Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
> > > > Univ. of South Carolina at Columbia
> > > > http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos
> > > Thanks, bit by bit we get closer to what early flight was like. Perhaps it started as small treebranch climbers leapt between twigs (eg. monkeys, bush babies) or bridged between twigs (eg. hominoids, spider monkeys)?
> > Primates are in the process of evolving flight capability? Well, dinosaurs managed it, but the image of brachiating dinosaurs boggles the mind.
> Actually, a hoatzin chick climbing trees with wing claws, if the forest was twice as thick with lianas & canopy vegetation, might be selected against flight and towards brachiation with a few favorable mutations, reduced wing feathers, broader chest, alternative strokes, longer hook claws. Already bipedal, arboreal, frugivorous like gibbons, same tropical environment as spider monkeys, already warm-blooded. Not too much reengineering required?

https://youtu.be/6uz_-_FE3UU short video of hoatzin using alternating wing/arm strokes to climb.

This is a twofer. First comes a direct reply to Daud's post immediately below,
then a reply to a post by Daud on another thread:

On Sunday, November 20, 2022 at 5:13:05 AM UTC-5, daud....@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, November 20, 2022 at 2:01:37 AM UTC-5, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Sat, 19 Nov 2022 14:04:13 -0800 (PST), erik simpson
> > <eastsi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 11:57:44 AM UTC-8, daud....@gmail.com wrote:
> > >> On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 12:14:48 PM UTC-5, erik simpson wrote:
> > >> > On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 12:56:20 AM UTC-8, daud....@gmail.com wrote:
> > >> > > On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 10:32:58 AM UTC-5, erik simpson wrote:
> > >> > > > On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 4:01:58 AM UTC-8, daud....@gmail.com wrote:

> > >> > > > > Thanks, bit by bit we get closer to what early flight was like. Perhaps it started as small treebranch climbers leapt between twigs (eg.. monkeys, bush babies) or bridged between twigs (eg. hominoids, spider monkeys)?
> > >> > > > Primates are in the process of evolving flight capability? Well, dinosaurs managed it, but the image of brachiating dinosaurs boggles the mind.
> > >> > > Actually, a hoatzin chick climbing trees with wing claws, if the forest was twice as thick with lianas & canopy vegetation, might be selected against flight and towards brachiation with a few favorable mutations, reduced wing feathers, broader chest, alternative strokes, longer hook claws.. Already bipedal, arboreal, frugivorous like gibbons, same tropical environment as spider monkeys, already warm-blooded. Not too much reengineering required?
> > >> > Bipedality in mammals vs. dinosaurs evolved via very different paths and the resulting postures are not remotely similar.
> > >> > Requesting a "few favorable mutations" to turn a hoatzin into something resembling a brachiating lesser ape doesn't
> > >> > look parsimonious to me.
> > >> Actually I think it will be very doable, in the genetic engineering sense, maybe in 25 years if the cause were to be well funded. Not that a brachiating hoatzin would look very gibbonish, but functionally I don't foresee much difficulty. Both gibbons and hoatzins are bipedal on branches with grasping feet, both already have curved appendages, both have generally similar facial features. Hoatzins have broader fields of vision, easily corrected.
> > >
> > >Bipedalism is not synonymous with brachiation. "Similar facial features"?
> > Daud Deden is using the same argument in two separate topics. I give
> > him credit for consistency.

> It started with Pandora at SAP, just kind of drifted here.

The following started in SBP, and I hope you find it relevant here:

Re: Today's News on Pterosaur Origins

On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 6:49:07 AM UTC-5, daud....@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 10:23:40 PM UTC-5, peter2...@gmail.com wrote:

> > Fortunately, the following link opens a new door to the development of flight in some pterosaurs:
> >
> > Current Biology, VOLUME 31, ISSUE 11, P2429-2436.E7, JUNE 07, 2021:
> > "A new darwinopteran pterosaur reveals arborealism and an opposed thumb"
> > https://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(21)00369-9?_returnURL=https%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com%2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS0960982221003699%3Fshowall%3Dtrue
> > Excerpt:
> > "The new species exhibits the oldest record of palmar (or true) opposition of the pollex, which is unprecedented for pterosaurs and represents a sophisticated adaptation related to arboreal locomotion. Principal-coordinate analyses suggest an arboreal lifestyle for the new species but not for other closely related species from the same locality, implying a possible case of ecological niche partitioning. The discovery adds to the known array of pterosaur adaptations and the history of arborealism in vertebrates. It also adds to the impressive early bloom of arboreal communities in the Jurassic of China, shedding light on the history of forest environments."
> >
> > IIRC you showed interest in several of these themes earlier. It's a detailed research paper, open access.
> > The critter has been named *Kunpengopterus.* The genus has been known since 2010, but this paper
> > is about a new species, *K. antipollicatus*. [As you will immediately recognize, this refers to the true opposability of the "thumb".]

> Really amazing how much can be found out about these animals and their ecologies. The reversed thumbs show that grasping fully evolved, allowing not just compressional perching but tensional perching in forest canopy's stiff lateral winds. In hominoids, slow brachiation required long strong opposed thumbs, while fast brachiation did not, as hook-like hands predominate where fast swinging is advantageous, as in gibbons & spider monkeys.

How would you like to -- as jillery might put it -- expand this comment to
the same argument on a third separate topic?

If not, I'll pick up the discussion on the original thread later this week.

Peter Nyikos
Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
Univ. of South Carolina in Columbia
http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos

On Monday, November 21, 2022 at 8:20:27 PM UTC-5, peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
> This is a twofer. First comes a direct reply to Daud's post immediately below,
> then a reply to a post by Daud on another thread:
> On Sunday, November 20, 2022 at 5:13:05 AM UTC-5, daud....@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Sunday, November 20, 2022 at 2:01:37 AM UTC-5, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Sat, 19 Nov 2022 14:04:13 -0800 (PST), erik simpson
> > > <eastsi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 11:57:44 AM UTC-8, daud....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > >> On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 12:14:48 PM UTC-5, erik simpson wrote:
> > > >> > On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 12:56:20 AM UTC-8, daud....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > >> > > On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 10:32:58 AM UTC-5, erik simpson wrote:
> > > >> > > > On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 4:01:58 AM UTC-8, daud....@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > >> > > > > Thanks, bit by bit we get closer to what early flight was like. Perhaps it started as small treebranch climbers leapt between twigs (eg. monkeys, bush babies) or bridged between twigs (eg. hominoids, spider monkeys)?
> > > >> > > > Primates are in the process of evolving flight capability? Well, dinosaurs managed it, but the image of brachiating dinosaurs boggles the mind.
> > > >> > > Actually, a hoatzin chick climbing trees with wing claws, if the forest was twice as thick with lianas & canopy vegetation, might be selected against flight and towards brachiation with a few favorable mutations, reduced wing feathers, broader chest, alternative strokes, longer hook claws. Already bipedal, arboreal, frugivorous like gibbons, same tropical environment as spider monkeys, already warm-blooded. Not too much reengineering required?
> > > >> > Bipedality in mammals vs. dinosaurs evolved via very different paths and the resulting postures are not remotely similar.
> > > >> > Requesting a "few favorable mutations" to turn a hoatzin into something resembling a brachiating lesser ape doesn't
> > > >> > look parsimonious to me.
> > > >> Actually I think it will be very doable, in the genetic engineering sense, maybe in 25 years if the cause were to be well funded. Not that a brachiating hoatzin would look very gibbonish, but functionally I don't foresee much difficulty. Both gibbons and hoatzins are bipedal on branches with grasping feet, both already have curved appendages, both have generally similar facial features. Hoatzins have broader fields of vision, easily corrected.
> > > >
> > > >Bipedalism is not synonymous with brachiation. "Similar facial features"?
> > > Daud Deden is using the same argument in two separate topics. I give
> > > him credit for consistency.
>
> > It started with Pandora at SAP, just kind of drifted here.
> The following started in SBP, and I hope you find it relevant here:
>
> Re: Today's News on Pterosaur Origins
>
> On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 6:49:07 AM UTC-5, daud....@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 10:23:40 PM UTC-5, peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > Fortunately, the following link opens a new door to the development of flight in some pterosaurs:
> > >
> > > Current Biology, VOLUME 31, ISSUE 11, P2429-2436.E7, JUNE 07, 2021:
> > > "A new darwinopteran pterosaur reveals arborealism and an opposed thumb"
> > > https://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(21)00369-9?_returnURL=https%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com%2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS0960982221003699%3Fshowall%3Dtrue
> > > Excerpt:
> > > "The new species exhibits the oldest record of palmar (or true) opposition of the pollex, which is unprecedented for pterosaurs and represents a sophisticated adaptation related to arboreal locomotion. Principal-coordinate analyses suggest an arboreal lifestyle for the new species but not for other closely related species from the same locality, implying a possible case of ecological niche partitioning. The discovery adds to the known array of pterosaur adaptations and the history of arborealism in vertebrates. It also adds to the impressive early bloom of arboreal communities in the Jurassic of China, shedding light on the history of forest environments."
> > >
> > > IIRC you showed interest in several of these themes earlier. It's a detailed research paper, open access.
> > > The critter has been named *Kunpengopterus.* The genus has been known since 2010, but this paper
> > > is about a new species, *K. antipollicatus*. [As you will immediately recognize, this refers to the true opposability of the "thumb".]
>
>
> > Really amazing how much can be found out about these animals and their ecologies. The reversed thumbs show that grasping fully evolved, allowing not just compressional perching but tensional perching in forest canopy's stiff lateral winds. In hominoids, slow brachiation required long strong opposed thumbs, while fast brachiation did not, as hook-like hands predominate where fast swinging is advantageous, as in gibbons & spider monkeys.
>
> How would you like to -- as jillery might put it -- expand this comment to
> the same argument on a third separate topic?
>
> If not, I'll pick up the discussion on the original thread later this week.
> Peter Nyikos
> Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
> Univ. of South Carolina in Columbia
> http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos
I don't understand your request.

69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
> The following is a link to a 20-minute "Real Science" video which
> discusses how flight evolved at least four separate times on Earth:
>
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZaZAH2WHAY>

I dunno. Doesn't seem very informative.

Personally, I had always held that powered flight was a selective
adaptation for living creatures being swept up by the wind.

So, insects: They're small, they get blown around... this is very useful...
helps them to spread... radiate... but powered flight is a way for them
to continue that advantageous activity even when there's no wind. And
when there is wind, powered flight is a very useful means to prevent
you from being dropped in the middle of a lake or out to sea...

So, yeah, the cursorial model, says I.

My biggest question about pterosaurs is where are the flightless species
and what did they have for genitalia?

Questions. My biggest questions (plural) are where are the flightless
species and what did they have for genitals...

-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/679818106282098688

On Tuesday, November 22, 2022 at 4:04:17 AM UTC-5, daud....@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, November 21, 2022 at 8:20:27 PM UTC-5, peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
> > This is a twofer. First comes a direct reply to Daud's post immediately below,
> > then a reply to a post by Daud on another thread:
> > On Sunday, November 20, 2022 at 5:13:05 AM UTC-5, daud....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Sunday, November 20, 2022 at 2:01:37 AM UTC-5, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Sat, 19 Nov 2022 14:04:13 -0800 (PST), erik simpson
> > > > <eastsi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 11:57:44 AM UTC-8, daud....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > >> On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 12:14:48 PM UTC-5, erik simpson wrote:
> > > > >> > On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 12:56:20 AM UTC-8, daud....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > >> > > On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 10:32:58 AM UTC-5, erik simpson wrote:
> > > > >> > > > On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 4:01:58 AM UTC-8, daud.....@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > > > >> > > > > Thanks, bit by bit we get closer to what early flight was like. Perhaps it started as small treebranch climbers leapt between twigs (eg. monkeys, bush babies) or bridged between twigs (eg. hominoids, spider monkeys)?
> > > > >> > > > Primates are in the process of evolving flight capability? Well, dinosaurs managed it, but the image of brachiating dinosaurs boggles the mind.
> > > > >> > > Actually, a hoatzin chick climbing trees with wing claws, if the forest was twice as thick with lianas & canopy vegetation, might be selected against flight and towards brachiation with a few favorable mutations, reduced wing feathers, broader chest, alternative strokes, longer hook claws. Already bipedal, arboreal, frugivorous like gibbons, same tropical environment as spider monkeys, already warm-blooded. Not too much reengineering required?
> > > > >> > Bipedality in mammals vs. dinosaurs evolved via very different paths and the resulting postures are not remotely similar.
> > > > >> > Requesting a "few favorable mutations" to turn a hoatzin into something resembling a brachiating lesser ape doesn't
> > > > >> > look parsimonious to me.
> > > > >> Actually I think it will be very doable, in the genetic engineering sense, maybe in 25 years if the cause were to be well funded. Not that a brachiating hoatzin would look very gibbonish, but functionally I don't foresee much difficulty. Both gibbons and hoatzins are bipedal on branches with grasping feet, both already have curved appendages, both have generally similar facial features. Hoatzins have broader fields of vision, easily corrected.
> > > > >
> > > > >Bipedalism is not synonymous with brachiation. "Similar facial features"?
> > > > Daud Deden is using the same argument in two separate topics. I give
> > > > him credit for consistency.
> >
> > > It started with Pandora at SAP, just kind of drifted here.
> > The following started in SBP, and I hope you find it relevant here:
> >
> > Re: Today's News on Pterosaur Origins
> >
> > On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 6:49:07 AM UTC-5, daud....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 10:23:40 PM UTC-5, peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > > > Fortunately, the following link opens a new door to the development of flight in some pterosaurs:
> > > >
> > > > Current Biology, VOLUME 31, ISSUE 11, P2429-2436.E7, JUNE 07, 2021:
> > > > "A new darwinopteran pterosaur reveals arborealism and an opposed thumb"
> > > > https://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(21)00369-9?_returnURL=https%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com%2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS0960982221003699%3Fshowall%3Dtrue
> > > > Excerpt:
> > > > "The new species exhibits the oldest record of palmar (or true) opposition of the pollex, which is unprecedented for pterosaurs and represents a sophisticated adaptation related to arboreal locomotion. Principal-coordinate analyses suggest an arboreal lifestyle for the new species but not for other closely related species from the same locality, implying a possible case of ecological niche partitioning. The discovery adds to the known array of pterosaur adaptations and the history of arborealism in vertebrates. It also adds to the impressive early bloom of arboreal communities in the Jurassic of China, shedding light on the history of forest environments."
> > > >
> > > > IIRC you showed interest in several of these themes earlier. It's a detailed research paper, open access.
> > > > The critter has been named *Kunpengopterus.* The genus has been known since 2010, but this paper
> > > > is about a new species, *K. antipollicatus*. [As you will immediately recognize, this refers to the true opposability of the "thumb".]
> >
> >
> > > Really amazing how much can be found out about these animals and their ecologies. The reversed thumbs show that grasping fully evolved, allowing not just compressional perching but tensional perching in forest canopy's stiff lateral winds. In hominoids, slow brachiation required long strong opposed thumbs, while fast brachiation did not, as hook-like hands predominate where fast swinging is advantageous, as in gibbons & spider monkeys.
> >
> > How would you like to -- as jillery might put it -- expand this comment to
> > the same argument on a third separate topic?
> >
> > If not, I'll pick up the discussion on the original thread later this week.
> > Peter Nyikos
> > Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
> > Univ. of South Carolina in Columbia
> > http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos

> I don't understand your request.

Never mind about that for now. I'd like for you to look at the latest post
I did on the thread, "Re: So Is Archaeopteryx a Real Bird After All?" today:

https://groups.google.com/g/sci.bio.paleontology/c/4bG1D7uLcT0/m/NBHEpZx2AgAJ

__________ excerpt, with John Harshman going first and me replying___________

> I will note that at least some specimens of Archaeopteryx have what look like
> flight feathers on the rear legs, though less prominently so than in
> Microraptor.

"flight feathers" indicates a very noticeable lack of symmetry, making these feathers
into miniature airfoils. AFAIK this need not indicate powered flight.
It would seem that they would be at least as good for gliding.
Would you agree, John?

I'd also like to hear from Daud Deden on this. We've talked a lot about
the difference between gliding and powered flight in the last two months or so.

================== end of excerpt ========================

Hope to see you there, Daud.

Peter Nyikos
Professor, Dept. of Mathematics
Univ. of South Carolina -- standard disclaimer--
http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos

On Wednesday, November 23, 2022 at 4:22:27 PM UTC-5, JTEM wrote:
> 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
> > The following is a link to a 20-minute "Real Science" video which
> > discusses how flight evolved at least four separate times on Earth:
> >
> > <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZaZAH2WHAY>

> I dunno. Doesn't seem very informative.

I don't think any sci.bio.paleontology regular would find it very informative.

The "jillery" is not an s.b.p. regular by any means, nor is Dale.
They were most recently brought to s.b.p. by the latest downtime of Beagle,
the talk.origins robo-moderator, like insects blown to a new location by the wind:
> Personally, I had always held that powered flight was a selective
> adaptation for living creatures being swept up by the wind.
>
> So, insects: They're small, they get blown around... this is very useful...
> helps them to spread... radiate... but powered flight is a way for them
> to continue that advantageous activity even when there's no wind.

That is considerably enhanced by the small flaps believed to have been
on the thoraxes and abdomens of the earliest insects. One hypothesis is
that those flaps were originally for thermoregulation, and some
of the thoracic ones became exapted for powered flight.

The abdominal ones may have continued to help, like the
leg feathers of Archaeopteryx as detailed in the reply to Dauden
that I did about an hour ago to this thread.

> when there is wind, powered flight is a very useful means to prevent
> you from being dropped in the middle of a lake or out to sea...
>
> So, yeah, the cursorial model, says I.

Not sure how you narrow things down like this.
How is running supposed to enhance the process we've described?

>
> My biggest question about pterosaurs is where are the flightless species
> and what did they have for genitalia?

No fossils are known for flightless species of pterosaurs. But it's easy
to *imagine* a gradualistic evolution of their wings that is no worse
than neutral, natural-selection-wise. It's much harder for feathers
or bat wings.

> Questions. My biggest questions (plural) are where are the flightless
> species and what did they have for genitals...

I suppose the second question is motivated by your awareness of
the dirty-mindedness of "jillery" and his/her sneering at the
supposed "prudery" of people who point out this character trait
without indulging in it themselves.

Like a polemical prostitute, 'e worked the opposite side
of the street when three people commented on the 69's
in the jillery address 69jpil69 "at" gmail.com, claiming that
this was all in their dirty minds. There followed the unverifiable
allegation that 1969 was the year "jillery" graduated from high school.

Peter Nyikos
Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
University of South Carolina
http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos

PS In case you are wondering, you have posted to sci.bio.paleontology
often enough, with perhaps a majority of posts with substantial
paleontological or evolutionary content, to be counted a regular here.

On 2/1/24 7:17 AM, Daud Deden wrote:
> On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 2:57:44 PM UTC-5, Daud Deden wrote:
>> On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 12:14:48 PM UTC-5, erik simpson wrote:
>>> On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 12:56:20 AM UTC-8, daud....@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 10:32:58 AM UTC-5, erik simpson wrote:
>>>>> On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 4:01:58 AM UTC-8, daud....@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 12:58:18 PM UTC-5, peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>> On Monday, November 7, 2022 at 4:52:56 PM UTC-5, daud....@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Friday, November 4, 2022 at 10:45:36 PM UTC-4, peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Sunday, October 30, 2022 at 4:35:20 PM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> The following is a link to a 20-minute "Real Science" video which
>>>>>>>>>> discusses how flight evolved at least four separate times on Earth:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZaZAH2WHAY>
>>>>>>>>> It's nowhere near as good as the YouTube videos you linked in the thread
>>>>>>>>> you started on bipedalism, but rather than go into its deficiencies so
>>>>>>>>> close to my weekend posting break, I just address your "at least four separate times."
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There has been a fifth candidate for the honor since 2015: *Yi qi*, a non-avian dinosaur.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
>>>>>>>>> Excerpt:
>>>>>>>>> It was a small, possibly tree-dwelling (arboreal) animal. Like other scansoriopterygids, Yi possessed an unusual, elongated third finger, that appears to have helped to support a membranous gliding plane made of skin. The planes of Yi qi were also supported by a long, bony strut attached to the wrist. This modified wrist bone and membrane-based plane is unique among all known dinosaurs, and might have resulted in wings similar in appearance to those of bats.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This webpage even shows two reconstructions of what its wings might have looked like.
>>>>>>>>> It's not like any wings I've ever seen. What do you think of it?
>>>>>>> <snip to get to your words, Daud>
>>>>>>>> Yi qi has the shortest genus name and shortest species name of any dinosaur.
>>>>>>>> This falconoid drone is a remarkably lifelike flapping flyer, with folding membrane wings. https://t.co/r7ulc2d1N2
>>>>>>> Great catch, Daud! freezing the video at 1:02, when it was shown in slow motion (8x slow),
>>>>>>> reveals a bat-like wing structure that belies the bird-like tail and bird-like general impression
>>>>>>> when it is in full flight. It would take very little to modify it to resemble one of the Yi Qi reproductions,
>>>>>>> keeping in mind that what looks like the last finger of Yi Qi is a "styliform element":
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Unlike all other known dinosaurs, a long, pointed wrist bone known as a "styliform element", exceeding both the third finger and the ulna in length, extended backward from the forelimb bones. This styliform, an adaptation to help support the membrane, may have been a newly evolved wrist bone, or a calcified rod of cartilage. It was slightly curved and tapered at its outer end.
>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>> The membrane stretched between the shorter fingers, the elongated third finger, the styliform bone, and possibly connected to the torso, though the inner part of the wing membrane was not preserved in the only known fossil.[1] This would have given the animal an appearance similar to modern bats, ... However, in bats, the membrane stretches between the fingers only, no styliform wrist bone being present."
>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [1] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/275669107_A_bizarre_Jurassic_maniraptoran_theropod_with_preserved_evidence_of_membranous_wings
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The life restoration by Emily Willoughby in the Wikipedia article maximizes the batlike appearance
>>>>>>> of the wings. It suggests a possible separation of the pollex ("thumb") from the rest of the wing, as in bats.
>>>>>>> It replaces the first two flight digits in bats (which are quite close together) with the second digit,
>>>>>>> which is much shorter than that in bats but still gives a nice membrane structure between it and the third
>>>>>>> and last [2], highly elongated digit. Then the styliform bone makes up for the absence of one more distal digit.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [2] Like all theropods and birds, only three digits are present in fossils. In the above scheme,
>>>>>>> the third wing digit of Yi Qi corresponds to the fourth in bats, and the styliform bone to the fifth in bats.
>>>>>>> Peter Nyikos
>>>>>>> Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
>>>>>>> Univ. of South Carolina at Columbia
>>>>>>> http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos
>>>>>> Thanks, bit by bit we get closer to what early flight was like. Perhaps it started as small treebranch climbers leapt between twigs (eg. monkeys, bush babies) or bridged between twigs (eg. hominoids, spider monkeys)?
>>>>> Primates are in the process of evolving flight capability? Well, dinosaurs managed it, but the image of brachiating dinosaurs boggles the mind.
>>>> Actually, a hoatzin chick climbing trees with wing claws, if the forest was twice as thick with lianas & canopy vegetation, might be selected against flight and towards brachiation with a few favorable mutations, reduced wing feathers, broader chest, alternative strokes, longer hook claws. Already bipedal, arboreal, frugivorous like gibbons, same tropical environment as spider monkeys, already warm-blooded. Not too much reengineering required?
>>> Bipedality in mammals vs. dinosaurs evolved via very different paths and the resulting postures are not remotely similar.
>>> Requesting a "few favorable mutations" to turn a hoatzin into something resembling a brachiating lesser ape doesn't
>>> look parsimonious to me.
>> Actually I think it will be very doable, in the genetic engineering sense, maybe in 25 years if the cause were to be well funded. Not that a brachiating hoatzin would look very gibbonish, but functionally I don't foresee much difficulty. Both gibbons and hoatzins are bipedal on branches with grasping feet, both already have curved appendages, both have generally similar facial features. Hoatzins have broader fields of vision, easily corrected.
>
> Then there's "beakiation" among parrots.
> https://www.sciencenews.org/article/parrots-move-branches-beakiation-animals-physics
> Atelid spider monkeys use their prehensile tail during their pseudo-brachiation across branches, parrots use their beaks. Hoatzins could be bred for that as well, to assist forelimb arboreal locomotion.
Is this a joke? Hoatzins don't "brachiate" like gibbons because they
don't have to. Why would anyone try to breed some that could? Why not
a breeding program (well-funded, of course) to breed humans with
prehensile noses? After all, they work well for elephants. I don't see
any difficulty in principle, except perhaps finding people who would
cooperate.

On 2/1/24 9:35 AM, erik simpson wrote:
> On 2/1/24 7:17 AM, Daud Deden wrote:
>> On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 2:57:44 PM UTC-5, Daud Deden wrote:
>>> On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 12:14:48 PM UTC-5, erik simpson wrote:
>>>> On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 12:56:20 AM UTC-8,
>>>> daud....@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>> On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 10:32:58 AM UTC-5, erik simpson
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 4:01:58 AM UTC-8,
>>>>>> daud....@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 12:58:18 PM UTC-5,
>>>>>>> peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Monday, November 7, 2022 at 4:52:56 PM UTC-5,
>>>>>>>> daud....@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Friday, November 4, 2022 at 10:45:36 PM UTC-4,
>>>>>>>>> peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Sunday, October 30, 2022 at 4:35:20 PM UTC-4,
>>>>>>>>>> 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> The following is a link to a 20-minute "Real Science" video
>>>>>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>>>>>> discusses how flight evolved at least four separate times on
>>>>>>>>>>> Earth:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZaZAH2WHAY>
>>>>>>>>>> It's nowhere near as good as the YouTube videos you linked in
>>>>>>>>>> the thread
>>>>>>>>>> you started on bipedalism, but rather than go into its
>>>>>>>>>> deficiencies so
>>>>>>>>>> close to my weekend posting break, I just address your "at
>>>>>>>>>> least four separate times."
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There has been a fifth candidate for the honor since 2015: *Yi
>>>>>>>>>> qi*, a non-avian dinosaur.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
>>>>>>>>>> Excerpt:
>>>>>>>>>> It was a small, possibly tree-dwelling (arboreal) animal. Like
>>>>>>>>>> other scansoriopterygids, Yi possessed an unusual, elongated
>>>>>>>>>> third finger, that appears to have helped to support a
>>>>>>>>>> membranous gliding plane made of skin. The planes of Yi qi
>>>>>>>>>> were also supported by a long, bony strut attached to the
>>>>>>>>>> wrist. This modified wrist bone and membrane-based plane is
>>>>>>>>>> unique among all known dinosaurs, and might have resulted in
>>>>>>>>>> wings similar in appearance to those of bats.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> This webpage even shows two reconstructions of what its wings
>>>>>>>>>> might have looked like.
>>>>>>>>>> It's not like any wings I've ever seen. What do you think of it?
>>>>>>>> <snip to get to your words, Daud>
>>>>>>>>> Yi qi has the shortest genus name and shortest species name of
>>>>>>>>> any dinosaur.
>>>>>>>>> This falconoid drone is a remarkably lifelike flapping flyer,
>>>>>>>>> with folding membrane wings. https://t.co/r7ulc2d1N2
>>>>>>>> Great catch, Daud! freezing the video at 1:02, when it was shown
>>>>>>>> in slow motion (8x slow),
>>>>>>>> reveals a bat-like wing structure that belies the bird-like tail
>>>>>>>> and bird-like general impression
>>>>>>>> when it is in full flight. It would take very little to modify
>>>>>>>> it to resemble one of the Yi Qi reproductions,
>>>>>>>> keeping in mind that what looks like the last finger of Yi Qi is
>>>>>>>> a "styliform element":
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Unlike all other known dinosaurs, a long, pointed wrist bone
>>>>>>>> known as a "styliform element", exceeding both the third finger
>>>>>>>> and the ulna in length, extended backward from the forelimb
>>>>>>>> bones. This styliform, an adaptation to help support the
>>>>>>>> membrane, may have been a newly evolved wrist bone, or a
>>>>>>>> calcified rod of cartilage. It was slightly curved and tapered
>>>>>>>> at its outer end.
>>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>> The membrane stretched between the shorter fingers, the
>>>>>>>> elongated third finger, the styliform bone, and possibly
>>>>>>>> connected to the torso, though the inner part of the wing
>>>>>>>> membrane was not preserved in the only known fossil.[1] This
>>>>>>>> would have given the animal an appearance similar to modern
>>>>>>>> bats, ... However, in bats, the membrane stretches between the
>>>>>>>> fingers only, no styliform wrist bone being present."
>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> [1]
>>>>>>>> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/275669107_A_bizarre_Jurassic_maniraptoran_theropod_with_preserved_evidence_of_membranous_wings
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The life restoration by Emily Willoughby in the Wikipedia
>>>>>>>> article maximizes the batlike appearance
>>>>>>>> of the wings. It suggests a possible separation of the pollex
>>>>>>>> ("thumb") from the rest of the wing, as in bats.
>>>>>>>> It replaces the first two flight digits in bats (which are quite
>>>>>>>> close together) with the second digit,
>>>>>>>> which is much shorter than that in bats but still gives a nice
>>>>>>>> membrane structure between it and the third
>>>>>>>> and last [2], highly elongated digit. Then the styliform bone
>>>>>>>> makes up for the absence of one more distal digit.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> [2] Like all theropods and birds, only three digits are present
>>>>>>>> in fossils. In the above scheme,
>>>>>>>> the third wing digit of Yi Qi corresponds to the fourth in bats,
>>>>>>>> and the styliform bone to the fifth in bats.
>>>>>>>> Peter Nyikos
>>>>>>>> Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
>>>>>>>> Univ. of South Carolina at Columbia
>>>>>>>> http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos
>>>>>>> Thanks, bit by bit we get closer to what early flight was like.
>>>>>>> Perhaps it started as small treebranch climbers leapt between
>>>>>>> twigs (eg. monkeys, bush babies) or bridged between twigs (eg.
>>>>>>> hominoids, spider monkeys)?
>>>>>> Primates are in the process of evolving flight capability? Well,
>>>>>> dinosaurs managed it, but the image of brachiating dinosaurs
>>>>>> boggles the mind.
>>>>> Actually, a hoatzin chick climbing trees with wing claws, if the
>>>>> forest was twice as thick with lianas & canopy vegetation, might be
>>>>> selected against flight and towards brachiation with a few
>>>>> favorable mutations, reduced wing feathers, broader chest,
>>>>> alternative strokes, longer hook claws. Already bipedal, arboreal,
>>>>> frugivorous like gibbons, same tropical environment as spider
>>>>> monkeys, already warm-blooded. Not too much reengineering required?
>>>> Bipedality in mammals vs. dinosaurs evolved via very different paths
>>>> and the resulting postures are not remotely similar.
>>>> Requesting a "few favorable mutations" to turn a hoatzin into
>>>> something resembling a brachiating lesser ape doesn't
>>>> look parsimonious to me.
>>> Actually I think it will be very doable, in the genetic engineering
>>> sense, maybe in 25 years if the cause were to be well funded. Not
>>> that a brachiating hoatzin would look very gibbonish, but
>>> functionally I don't foresee much difficulty. Both gibbons and
>>> hoatzins are bipedal on branches with grasping feet, both already
>>> have curved appendages, both have generally similar facial features.
>>> Hoatzins have broader fields of vision, easily corrected.
>>
>> Then there's "beakiation" among parrots.
>> https://www.sciencenews.org/article/parrots-move-branches-beakiation-animals-physics
>> Atelid spider monkeys use their prehensile tail during their
>> pseudo-brachiation across branches, parrots use their beaks. Hoatzins
>> could be bred for that as well, to assist forelimb arboreal locomotion.
> Is this a joke?  Hoatzins don't "brachiate" like gibbons because they
> don't have to.  Why would anyone try to breed some that could?  Why not
> a breeding program (well-funded, of course) to breed humans with
> prehensile noses?  After all, they work well for elephants.  I don't see
> any difficulty in principle, except perhaps finding people who would
> cooperate.

On 2/1/24 10:28 AM, John Harshman wrote:
> On 2/1/24 9:35 AM, erik simpson wrote:
>> On 2/1/24 7:17 AM, Daud Deden wrote:
>>> On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 2:57:44 PM UTC-5, Daud Deden wrote:
>>>> On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 12:14:48 PM UTC-5, erik simpson
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 12:56:20 AM UTC-8,
>>>>> daud....@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 10:32:58 AM UTC-5, erik simpson
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 4:01:58 AM UTC-8,
>>>>>>> daud....@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 12:58:18 PM UTC-5,
>>>>>>>> peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Monday, November 7, 2022 at 4:52:56 PM UTC-5,
>>>>>>>>> daud....@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, November 4, 2022 at 10:45:36 PM UTC-4,
>>>>>>>>>> peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sunday, October 30, 2022 at 4:35:20 PM UTC-4,
>>>>>>>>>>> 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> The following is a link to a 20-minute "Real Science" video
>>>>>>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>>>>>>> discusses how flight evolved at least four separate times on
>>>>>>>>>>>> Earth:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZaZAH2WHAY>
>>>>>>>>>>> It's nowhere near as good as the YouTube videos you linked in
>>>>>>>>>>> the thread
>>>>>>>>>>> you started on bipedalism, but rather than go into its
>>>>>>>>>>> deficiencies so
>>>>>>>>>>> close to my weekend posting break, I just address your "at
>>>>>>>>>>> least four separate times."
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> There has been a fifth candidate for the honor since 2015:
>>>>>>>>>>> *Yi qi*, a non-avian dinosaur.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
>>>>>>>>>>> Excerpt:
>>>>>>>>>>> It was a small, possibly tree-dwelling (arboreal) animal.
>>>>>>>>>>> Like other scansoriopterygids, Yi possessed an unusual,
>>>>>>>>>>> elongated third finger, that appears to have helped to
>>>>>>>>>>> support a membranous gliding plane made of skin. The planes
>>>>>>>>>>> of Yi qi were also supported by a long, bony strut attached
>>>>>>>>>>> to the wrist. This modified wrist bone and membrane-based
>>>>>>>>>>> plane is unique among all known dinosaurs, and might have
>>>>>>>>>>> resulted in wings similar in appearance to those of bats.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> This webpage even shows two reconstructions of what its wings
>>>>>>>>>>> might have looked like.
>>>>>>>>>>> It's not like any wings I've ever seen. What do you think of it?
>>>>>>>>> <snip to get to your words, Daud>
>>>>>>>>>> Yi qi has the shortest genus name and shortest species name of
>>>>>>>>>> any dinosaur.
>>>>>>>>>> This falconoid drone is a remarkably lifelike flapping flyer,
>>>>>>>>>> with folding membrane wings. https://t.co/r7ulc2d1N2
>>>>>>>>> Great catch, Daud! freezing the video at 1:02, when it was
>>>>>>>>> shown in slow motion (8x slow),
>>>>>>>>> reveals a bat-like wing structure that belies the bird-like
>>>>>>>>> tail and bird-like general impression
>>>>>>>>> when it is in full flight. It would take very little to modify
>>>>>>>>> it to resemble one of the Yi Qi reproductions,
>>>>>>>>> keeping in mind that what looks like the last finger of Yi Qi
>>>>>>>>> is a "styliform element":
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Unlike all other known dinosaurs, a long, pointed wrist bone
>>>>>>>>> known as a "styliform element", exceeding both the third finger
>>>>>>>>> and the ulna in length, extended backward from the forelimb
>>>>>>>>> bones. This styliform, an adaptation to help support the
>>>>>>>>> membrane, may have been a newly evolved wrist bone, or a
>>>>>>>>> calcified rod of cartilage. It was slightly curved and tapered
>>>>>>>>> at its outer end.
>>>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>>> The membrane stretched between the shorter fingers, the
>>>>>>>>> elongated third finger, the styliform bone, and possibly
>>>>>>>>> connected to the torso, though the inner part of the wing
>>>>>>>>> membrane was not preserved in the only known fossil.[1] This
>>>>>>>>> would have given the animal an appearance similar to modern
>>>>>>>>> bats, ... However, in bats, the membrane stretches between the
>>>>>>>>> fingers only, no styliform wrist bone being present."
>>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> [1]
>>>>>>>>> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/275669107_A_bizarre_Jurassic_maniraptoran_theropod_with_preserved_evidence_of_membranous_wings
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The life restoration by Emily Willoughby in the Wikipedia
>>>>>>>>> article maximizes the batlike appearance
>>>>>>>>> of the wings. It suggests a possible separation of the pollex
>>>>>>>>> ("thumb") from the rest of the wing, as in bats.
>>>>>>>>> It replaces the first two flight digits in bats (which are
>>>>>>>>> quite close together) with the second digit,
>>>>>>>>> which is much shorter than that in bats but still gives a nice
>>>>>>>>> membrane structure between it and the third
>>>>>>>>> and last [2], highly elongated digit. Then the styliform bone
>>>>>>>>> makes up for the absence of one more distal digit.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> [2] Like all theropods and birds, only three digits are present
>>>>>>>>> in fossils. In the above scheme,
>>>>>>>>> the third wing digit of Yi Qi corresponds to the fourth in
>>>>>>>>> bats, and the styliform bone to the fifth in bats.
>>>>>>>>> Peter Nyikos
>>>>>>>>> Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
>>>>>>>>> Univ. of South Carolina at Columbia
>>>>>>>>> http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos
>>>>>>>> Thanks, bit by bit we get closer to what early flight was like.
>>>>>>>> Perhaps it started as small treebranch climbers leapt between
>>>>>>>> twigs (eg. monkeys, bush babies) or bridged between twigs (eg.
>>>>>>>> hominoids, spider monkeys)?
>>>>>>> Primates are in the process of evolving flight capability? Well,
>>>>>>> dinosaurs managed it, but the image of brachiating dinosaurs
>>>>>>> boggles the mind.
>>>>>> Actually, a hoatzin chick climbing trees with wing claws, if the
>>>>>> forest was twice as thick with lianas & canopy vegetation, might
>>>>>> be selected against flight and towards brachiation with a few
>>>>>> favorable mutations, reduced wing feathers, broader chest,
>>>>>> alternative strokes, longer hook claws. Already bipedal, arboreal,
>>>>>> frugivorous like gibbons, same tropical environment as spider
>>>>>> monkeys, already warm-blooded. Not too much reengineering required?
>>>>> Bipedality in mammals vs. dinosaurs evolved via very different
>>>>> paths and the resulting postures are not remotely similar.
>>>>> Requesting a "few favorable mutations" to turn a hoatzin into
>>>>> something resembling a brachiating lesser ape doesn't
>>>>> look parsimonious to me.
>>>> Actually I think it will be very doable, in the genetic engineering
>>>> sense, maybe in 25 years if the cause were to be well funded. Not
>>>> that a brachiating hoatzin would look very gibbonish, but
>>>> functionally I don't foresee much difficulty. Both gibbons and
>>>> hoatzins are bipedal on branches with grasping feet, both already
>>>> have curved appendages, both have generally similar facial features.
>>>> Hoatzins have broader fields of vision, easily corrected.
>>>
>>> Then there's "beakiation" among parrots.
>>> https://www.sciencenews.org/article/parrots-move-branches-beakiation-animals-physics
>>> Atelid spider monkeys use their prehensile tail during their
>>> pseudo-brachiation across branches, parrots use their beaks. Hoatzins
>>> could be bred for that as well, to assist forelimb arboreal locomotion.
>> Is this a joke?  Hoatzins don't "brachiate" like gibbons because they
>> don't have to.  Why would anyone try to breed some that could?  Why
>> not a breeding program (well-funded, of course) to breed humans with
>> prehensile noses?  After all, they work well for elephants.  I don't
>> see any difficulty in principle, except perhaps finding people who
>> would cooperate.
>
> You might be able to interest hereditary priests of Ganesh.
I hadn't thought of that - I'll log in to GoFundMe right away.

On 2/1/24 12:35, erik simpson wrote:
> On 2/1/24 7:17 AM, Daud Deden wrote:
>> On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 2:57:44 PM UTC-5, Daud Deden wrote:
>>> On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 12:14:48 PM UTC-5, erik simpson wrote:
>>>> On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 12:56:20 AM UTC-8,
>>>> daud....@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>> On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 10:32:58 AM UTC-5, erik simpson
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 4:01:58 AM UTC-8,
>>>>>> daud....@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 12:58:18 PM UTC-5,
>>>>>>> peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Monday, November 7, 2022 at 4:52:56 PM UTC-5,
>>>>>>>> daud....@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Friday, November 4, 2022 at 10:45:36 PM UTC-4,
>>>>>>>>> peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Sunday, October 30, 2022 at 4:35:20 PM UTC-4,

Why answer a 2 year old thread.

>>>>>>>>>> 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> The following is a link to a 20-minute "Real Science" video
>>>>>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>>>>>> discusses how flight evolved at least four separate times on
>>>>>>>>>>> Earth:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZaZAH2WHAY>
>>>>>>>>>> It's nowhere near as good as the YouTube videos you linked in
>>>>>>>>>> the thread
>>>>>>>>>> you started on bipedalism, but rather than go into its
>>>>>>>>>> deficiencies so
>>>>>>>>>> close to my weekend posting break, I just address your "at
>>>>>>>>>> least four separate times."
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There has been a fifth candidate for the honor since 2015: *Yi
>>>>>>>>>> qi*, a non-avian dinosaur.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
>>>>>>>>>> Excerpt:
>>>>>>>>>> It was a small, possibly tree-dwelling (arboreal) animal. Like
>>>>>>>>>> other scansoriopterygids, Yi possessed an unusual, elongated
>>>>>>>>>> third finger, that appears to have helped to support a
>>>>>>>>>> membranous gliding plane made of skin. The planes of Yi qi
>>>>>>>>>> were also supported by a long, bony strut attached to the
>>>>>>>>>> wrist. This modified wrist bone and membrane-based plane is
>>>>>>>>>> unique among all known dinosaurs, and might have resulted in
>>>>>>>>>> wings similar in appearance to those of bats.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> This webpage even shows two reconstructions of what its wings
>>>>>>>>>> might have looked like.
>>>>>>>>>> It's not like any wings I've ever seen. What do you think of it?
>>>>>>>> <snip to get to your words, Daud>
>>>>>>>>> Yi qi has the shortest genus name and shortest species name of
>>>>>>>>> any dinosaur.
>>>>>>>>> This falconoid drone is a remarkably lifelike flapping flyer,
>>>>>>>>> with folding membrane wings. https://t.co/r7ulc2d1N2
>>>>>>>> Great catch, Daud! freezing the video at 1:02, when it was shown
>>>>>>>> in slow motion (8x slow),
>>>>>>>> reveals a bat-like wing structure that belies the bird-like tail
>>>>>>>> and bird-like general impression
>>>>>>>> when it is in full flight. It would take very little to modify
>>>>>>>> it to resemble one of the Yi Qi reproductions,
>>>>>>>> keeping in mind that what looks like the last finger of Yi Qi is
>>>>>>>> a "styliform element":
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Unlike all other known dinosaurs, a long, pointed wrist bone
>>>>>>>> known as a "styliform element", exceeding both the third finger
>>>>>>>> and the ulna in length, extended backward from the forelimb
>>>>>>>> bones. This styliform, an adaptation to help support the
>>>>>>>> membrane, may have been a newly evolved wrist bone, or a
>>>>>>>> calcified rod of cartilage. It was slightly curved and tapered
>>>>>>>> at its outer end.
>>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>> The membrane stretched between the shorter fingers, the
>>>>>>>> elongated third finger, the styliform bone, and possibly
>>>>>>>> connected to the torso, though the inner part of the wing
>>>>>>>> membrane was not preserved in the only known fossil.[1] This
>>>>>>>> would have given the animal an appearance similar to modern
>>>>>>>> bats, ... However, in bats, the membrane stretches between the
>>>>>>>> fingers only, no styliform wrist bone being present."
>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> [1]
>>>>>>>> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/275669107_A_bizarre_Jurassic_maniraptoran_theropod_with_preserved_evidence_of_membranous_wings
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The life restoration by Emily Willoughby in the Wikipedia
>>>>>>>> article maximizes the batlike appearance
>>>>>>>> of the wings. It suggests a possible separation of the pollex
>>>>>>>> ("thumb") from the rest of the wing, as in bats.
>>>>>>>> It replaces the first two flight digits in bats (which are quite
>>>>>>>> close together) with the second digit,
>>>>>>>> which is much shorter than that in bats but still gives a nice
>>>>>>>> membrane structure between it and the third
>>>>>>>> and last [2], highly elongated digit. Then the styliform bone
>>>>>>>> makes up for the absence of one more distal digit.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> [2] Like all theropods and birds, only three digits are present
>>>>>>>> in fossils. In the above scheme,
>>>>>>>> the third wing digit of Yi Qi corresponds to the fourth in bats,
>>>>>>>> and the styliform bone to the fifth in bats.
>>>>>>>> Peter Nyikos
>>>>>>>> Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
>>>>>>>> Univ. of South Carolina at Columbia
>>>>>>>> http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos
>>>>>>> Thanks, bit by bit we get closer to what early flight was like.
>>>>>>> Perhaps it started as small treebranch climbers leapt between
>>>>>>> twigs (eg. monkeys, bush babies) or bridged between twigs (eg.
>>>>>>> hominoids, spider monkeys)?
>>>>>> Primates are in the process of evolving flight capability? Well,
>>>>>> dinosaurs managed it, but the image of brachiating dinosaurs
>>>>>> boggles the mind.
>>>>> Actually, a hoatzin chick climbing trees with wing claws, if the
>>>>> forest was twice as thick with lianas & canopy vegetation, might be
>>>>> selected against flight and towards brachiation with a few
>>>>> favorable mutations, reduced wing feathers, broader chest,
>>>>> alternative strokes, longer hook claws. Already bipedal, arboreal,
>>>>> frugivorous like gibbons, same tropical environment as spider
>>>>> monkeys, already warm-blooded. Not too much reengineering required?
>>>> Bipedality in mammals vs. dinosaurs evolved via very different paths
>>>> and the resulting postures are not remotely similar.
>>>> Requesting a "few favorable mutations" to turn a hoatzin into
>>>> something resembling a brachiating lesser ape doesn't
>>>> look parsimonious to me.
>>> Actually I think it will be very doable, in the genetic engineering
>>> sense, maybe in 25 years if the cause were to be well funded. Not
>>> that a brachiating hoatzin would look very gibbonish, but
>>> functionally I don't foresee much difficulty. Both gibbons and
>>> hoatzins are bipedal on branches with grasping feet, both already
>>> have curved appendages, both have generally similar facial features.
>>> Hoatzins have broader fields of vision, easily corrected.
>>
>> Then there's "beakiation" among parrots.
>> https://www.sciencenews.org/article/parrots-move-branches-beakiation-animals-physics
>> Atelid spider monkeys use their prehensile tail during their
>> pseudo-brachiation across branches, parrots use their beaks. Hoatzins
>> could be bred for that as well, to assist forelimb arboreal locomotion.
> Is this a joke?  Hoatzins don't "brachiate" like gibbons because they
> don't have to.  Why would anyone try to breed some that could?  Why not
> a breeding program (well-funded, of course) to breed humans with
> prehensile noses?  After all, they work well for elephants.  I don't see
> any difficulty in principle, except perhaps finding people who would
> cooperate.

On 2/14/24 2:06 PM, Daud Deden wrote:
> On Sunday, February 4, 2024 at 8:47:52 AM UTC-5, Popping Mad wrote:
>> On 2/1/24 12:35, erik simpson wrote:
>>> On 2/1/24 7:17 AM, Daud Deden wrote:
>>>> On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 2:57:44 PM UTC-5, Daud Deden wrote:
>>>>> On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 12:14:48 PM UTC-5, erik simpson wrote:
>>>>>> On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 12:56:20 AM UTC-8,
>>>>>> daud....@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 10:32:58 AM UTC-5, erik simpson
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 4:01:58 AM UTC-8,
>>>>>>>> daud....@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 12:58:18 PM UTC-5,
>>>>>>>>> peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, November 7, 2022 at 4:52:56 PM UTC-5,
>>>>>>>>>> daud....@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, November 4, 2022 at 10:45:36 PM UTC-4,
>>>>>>>>>>> peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sunday, October 30, 2022 at 4:35:20 PM UTC-4,
>> Why answer a 2 year old thread.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The following is a link to a 20-minute "Real Science" video
>>>>>>>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>>>>>>>> discusses how flight evolved at least four separate times on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Earth:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZaZAH2WHAY>
>>>>>>>>>>>> It's nowhere near as good as the YouTube videos you linked in
>>>>>>>>>>>> the thread
>>>>>>>>>>>> you started on bipedalism, but rather than go into its
>>>>>>>>>>>> deficiencies so
>>>>>>>>>>>> close to my weekend posting break, I just address your "at
>>>>>>>>>>>> least four separate times."
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> There has been a fifth candidate for the honor since 2015: *Yi
>>>>>>>>>>>> qi*, a non-avian dinosaur.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
>>>>>>>>>>>> Excerpt:
>>>>>>>>>>>> It was a small, possibly tree-dwelling (arboreal) animal. Like
>>>>>>>>>>>> other scansoriopterygids, Yi possessed an unusual, elongated
>>>>>>>>>>>> third finger, that appears to have helped to support a
>>>>>>>>>>>> membranous gliding plane made of skin. The planes of Yi qi
>>>>>>>>>>>> were also supported by a long, bony strut attached to the
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrist. This modified wrist bone and membrane-based plane is
>>>>>>>>>>>> unique among all known dinosaurs, and might have resulted in
>>>>>>>>>>>> wings similar in appearance to those of bats.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> This webpage even shows two reconstructions of what its wings
>>>>>>>>>>>> might have looked like.
>>>>>>>>>>>> It's not like any wings I've ever seen. What do you think of it?
>>>>>>>>>> <snip to get to your words, Daud>
>>>>>>>>>>> Yi qi has the shortest genus name and shortest species name of
>>>>>>>>>>> any dinosaur.
>>>>>>>>>>> This falconoid drone is a remarkably lifelike flapping flyer,
>>>>>>>>>>> with folding membrane wings. https://t.co/r7ulc2d1N2
>>>>>>>>>> Great catch, Daud! freezing the video at 1:02, when it was shown
>>>>>>>>>> in slow motion (8x slow),
>>>>>>>>>> reveals a bat-like wing structure that belies the bird-like tail
>>>>>>>>>> and bird-like general impression
>>>>>>>>>> when it is in full flight. It would take very little to modify
>>>>>>>>>> it to resemble one of the Yi Qi reproductions,
>>>>>>>>>> keeping in mind that what looks like the last finger of Yi Qi is
>>>>>>>>>> a "styliform element":
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "Unlike all other known dinosaurs, a long, pointed wrist bone
>>>>>>>>>> known as a "styliform element", exceeding both the third finger
>>>>>>>>>> and the ulna in length, extended backward from the forelimb
>>>>>>>>>> bones. This styliform, an adaptation to help support the
>>>>>>>>>> membrane, may have been a newly evolved wrist bone, or a
>>>>>>>>>> calcified rod of cartilage. It was slightly curved and tapered
>>>>>>>>>> at its outer end.
>>>>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>>>> The membrane stretched between the shorter fingers, the
>>>>>>>>>> elongated third finger, the styliform bone, and possibly
>>>>>>>>>> connected to the torso, though the inner part of the wing
>>>>>>>>>> membrane was not preserved in the only known fossil.[1] This
>>>>>>>>>> would have given the animal an appearance similar to modern
>>>>>>>>>> bats, ... However, in bats, the membrane stretches between the
>>>>>>>>>> fingers only, no styliform wrist bone being present."
>>>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> [1]
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/275669107_A_bizarre_Jurassic_maniraptoran_theropod_with_preserved_evidence_of_membranous_wings
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The life restoration by Emily Willoughby in the Wikipedia
>>>>>>>>>> article maximizes the batlike appearance
>>>>>>>>>> of the wings. It suggests a possible separation of the pollex
>>>>>>>>>> ("thumb") from the rest of the wing, as in bats.
>>>>>>>>>> It replaces the first two flight digits in bats (which are quite
>>>>>>>>>> close together) with the second digit,
>>>>>>>>>> which is much shorter than that in bats but still gives a nice
>>>>>>>>>> membrane structure between it and the third
>>>>>>>>>> and last [2], highly elongated digit. Then the styliform bone
>>>>>>>>>> makes up for the absence of one more distal digit.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> [2] Like all theropods and birds, only three digits are present
>>>>>>>>>> in fossils. In the above scheme,
>>>>>>>>>> the third wing digit of Yi Qi corresponds to the fourth in bats,
>>>>>>>>>> and the styliform bone to the fifth in bats.
>>>>>>>>>> Peter Nyikos
>>>>>>>>>> Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
>>>>>>>>>> Univ. of South Carolina at Columbia
>>>>>>>>>> http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos
>>>>>>>>> Thanks, bit by bit we get closer to what early flight was like.
>>>>>>>>> Perhaps it started as small treebranch climbers leapt between
>>>>>>>>> twigs (eg. monkeys, bush babies) or bridged between twigs (eg.
>>>>>>>>> hominoids, spider monkeys)?
>>>>>>>> Primates are in the process of evolving flight capability? Well,
>>>>>>>> dinosaurs managed it, but the image of brachiating dinosaurs
>>>>>>>> boggles the mind.
>>>>>>> Actually, a hoatzin chick climbing trees with wing claws, if the
>>>>>>> forest was twice as thick with lianas & canopy vegetation, might be
>>>>>>> selected against flight and towards brachiation with a few
>>>>>>> favorable mutations, reduced wing feathers, broader chest,
>>>>>>> alternative strokes, longer hook claws. Already bipedal, arboreal,
>>>>>>> frugivorous like gibbons, same tropical environment as spider
>>>>>>> monkeys, already warm-blooded. Not too much reengineering required?
>>>>>> Bipedality in mammals vs. dinosaurs evolved via very different paths
>>>>>> and the resulting postures are not remotely similar.
>>>>>> Requesting a "few favorable mutations" to turn a hoatzin into
>>>>>> something resembling a brachiating lesser ape doesn't
>>>>>> look parsimonious to me.
>>>>> Actually I think it will be very doable, in the genetic engineering
>>>>> sense, maybe in 25 years if the cause were to be well funded. Not
>>>>> that a brachiating hoatzin would look very gibbonish, but
>>>>> functionally I don't foresee much difficulty. Both gibbons and
>>>>> hoatzins are bipedal on branches with grasping feet, both already
>>>>> have curved appendages, both have generally similar facial features.
>>>>> Hoatzins have broader fields of vision, easily corrected.
>>>>
>>>> Then there's "beakiation" among parrots.
>>>> https://www.sciencenews.org/article/parrots-move-branches-beakiation-animals-physics
>>>> Atelid spider monkeys use their prehensile tail during their
>>>> pseudo-brachiation across branches, parrots use their beaks. Hoatzins
>>>> could be bred for that as well, to assist forelimb arboreal locomotion.
>>> Is this a joke? Hoatzins don't "brachiate" like gibbons because they
>>> don't have to. Why would anyone try to breed some that could? Why not
>>> a breeding program (well-funded, of course) to breed humans with
>>> prehensile noses? After all, they work well for elephants. I don't see
>>> any difficulty in principle, except perhaps finding people who would
>>> cooperate.
>
> Monkey & parrot symbiosis
> https://x.com/AMAZlNGNATURE/status/1757814956722889141?s=20
That's definitely a cute video, but I doubt the macaw will teach the
monkey how to fly.

On 2/14/24 17:43, erik simpson wrote:
> That's definitely a cute video, but I doubt the macaw will teach the
> monkey how to fly.

They share 92% of their DNA ...

You should see Wicked.