Saw this on the Apple newsgroups.
https://www.cnet.com/tech/services-and-software/regain-control-of-your-data-in-2024-and-delete-your-digital-history-heres-how-to-do-it/

It looks like you sign up for the Permission Slip service for each email
address and then you're presented with companies that collect & sell it.
https://permissionslipcr.com/

The sentences that are a little worrisome though are "Permission Slip will
ask you a couple of questions that can help companies and data brokers
correctly identify you and properly take care of your information. After
you input your personal info the first time, the process for continuing to
remove your data is pretty simple. You will just scroll through Permission
Slip's suggestions, select companies that might have your info and then
delete your account or prohibit the company from using your data."

I guess it's like that Do Not Call registry where you have to tell them who
you are in order for them to not sell who you are. I trust CR though.

On Sat, 6 Jan 2024 23:26:57 -0500, Mickey D wrote:

> Saw this on the Apple newsgroups.
> https://www.cnet.com/tech/services-and-software/regain-control-of-your-data-in-2024-and-delete-your-digital-history-heres-how-to-do-it/
>
> It looks like you sign up for the Permission Slip service for each email
> address and then you're presented with companies that collect & sell it.
> https://permissionslipcr.com/
>
> The sentences that are a little worrisome though are "Permission Slip will
> ask you a couple of questions that can help companies and data brokers
> correctly identify you and properly take care of your information. After
> you input your personal info the first time, the process for continuing to
> remove your data is pretty simple. You will just scroll through Permission
> Slip's suggestions, select companies that might have your info and then
> delete your account or prohibit the company from using your data."
>
> I guess it's like that Do Not Call registry where you have to tell them who
> you are in order for them to not sell who you are. I trust CR though.

I tried to sign up (it needs your email and the password must be at least
12 characters and 3 out of 4 of these (upper,lower,number,symbol).

The first question it asks is which state you live in.
Rather than give them the state, which state is the most protective?

What's the best state to give it (so you don't have to give it your state)?

Mickey D <mickeydavis078XX@ptd.net> wrote:

> Saw this on the Apple newsgroups.
> https://www.cnet.com/tech/services-and-software/regain-control-of-your-data-in-2024-and-delete-your-digital-history-heres-how-to-do-it/
>
> It looks like you sign up for the Permission Slip service for each email
> address and then you're presented with companies that collect & sell it.
> https://permissionslipcr.com/
>
> The sentences that are a little worrisome though are "Permission Slip will
> ask you a couple of questions that can help companies and data brokers
> correctly identify you and properly take care of your information. After
> you input your personal info the first time, the process for continuing to
> remove your data is pretty simple. You will just scroll through Permission
> Slip's suggestions, select companies that might have your info and then
> delete your account or prohibit the company from using your data."
>
> I guess it's like that Do Not Call registry where you have to tell them who
> you are in order for them to not sell who you are. I trust CR though.

"prohibit the company from using your data". Uh huh. This is like
hanging a "No trespassing sign" on your house doors expecting burglars
to obey. Or enabling the "Do No Track" header in a web browser
expecting any web site to give a gnat's fart. In fact, the word
"prohibit" belies the false claim: a request to a company does not carry
with it the legal force of a court order. All you end up doing to
validating your identity to the company that already collected your data
further strengthening any weighting on their records of you.

Unlike the Do Not Call FCC system which actually does carry legally
enforcable court order with thousands of dollars in punitive fines
(provided the offender is within US territories, and total of reports
would constitute estimated losses of $25), this equivalent of "Do Not
Track" has no legal backing whatsoever.

I doubt CR has the resources to maintain what would effectively
equivalent to analysis, tracking, and identifying malware involved in
maintaining anti-virus software. Even their tests don't cover many
models in testing of some product. Also likely is that they would
purchase the marketing data that major vendors sell to any company that
will pay for it. There are major marketing vendors that collect this
data, and you can buy what type of data you want instead of all it since
much of it won't apply to how you want to use that data. Those are
marketeers that focus on selling their data to where it is applicable
and enterprise customers are willing to pay for that data. Such data is
considered marketing data, not the type collected by every web site or
business you visit associate with.

Someone else is collecting the research data that CR buys to then
populate a database for use with this, ahem, "permission" scheme. CR is
primarily a newspaper, periodical, book, and directory publisher. To
populate their magazine, they operate testing labs.

https://www.dnb.com/business-directory/company-profiles.consumer_reports_inc.c2a4fb255a53bf498654956df6542c21.html
"Consumer Reports (CR) inspires both trust and fear. CR is an
independent, nonprofit member organization that works side by side with
consumers for truth, transparency, and fairness in the marketplace. CR
is the publisher of Consumer Reports, ConsumerReports.org, as well as
other periodicals, publications, and consumer services. It conducts
consumer advocacy and education programs for public health and safety.
Print products include subscription or newsstand sales of Consumer
Reports Magazine, a Health based newsletter, and special interest
publications. CR derives revenue from the subscription sale of Consumer
Reports and other services, and non-commercial contributions,
subscriptions, newsstands, and other."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consumers%27_Research
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consumer_Reports

Something similar is getting your records removed from Whitepages. They
don't delete the records they have, just remove external access; see
https://www.whitepages.com/suppression-requests.

I suspect you should divulge your e-mail address (or do so indirectly by
using the Apple or Google accounts to login), because that is likely
their primary key to search through the marketing data they purchased.
CR is supporting the data brokers by purchasing the marketing data (data
brokers provide marketing data, and who purchased their marketing data,
too), and then try to give you a simpler method to request the data
collectors not use or remove your data they have.

The article mentions "Permission Slip does the legwork of collecting the
places that might have your data, including more than 100 companies that
use your personal information." Geez, 100 is a miniscule number. The
effect is you spitting in the ocean expecting to raise the sea level.
You don't get to issue a blanket request for data removal. You have to
select one of the few companies listed and request data removal, and do
so one by one. Expect to spend many off-hours issuing requests to
remove your data, some of which have you visit the unsubscribe service
at a company since the app cannot do it automatically, and then wait
weeks or months until CR gets updated marketing data to determine if you
were removed or not. A company may contact you saying they will remove
your data, but that is not the same as a confirmation that they HAVE
removed your data.

Oh, by the way CR's Permission Slip is an app, not a program that runs
on your desktop Windows, MacOS, or Linux desktop. Their app runs in iOS
and Android.

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.consumerreports.permissionslip.production
https://apps.apple.com/us/app/permission-slip-by-cr/id1591285074

Because of the personal data you have to divulge to CR to go hunting
through the marketing data they bought, and their poor privacy policy
(note they say they will share your data with other companies), it's
been accused of being a poorly veiled data mining operation.

Yes, CR has their 14-page brain numbing legalese-ridden privacy policy.
Who writes the policy or contract is the one that gets legally
protected, not the one agreeing to the contract. Lawyers are adept at
adding "out" that the issuer can use to indemnify themself on later
behavior change.

"We do not sell your personal information in a way that most people
would think of as a sale. However, we do participate in online
targeted advertising and use analytics which allows tech companies, in
exchange for our use of their services, to use user information
collected from our App to improve their own products and to improve
the services they provide to others. Under some laws, this is
considered our "sale" of your user data to third parties. You can
opt-out of this as provided in the “How to Submit a Request” section
below."

So, they protect your data you give them, except when they don't. They
would themself be one of those companies you would request to have your
data removed, but you had to give it to them to use their service, and
removing your data closes your account making their service unusable.

They'll help you opt-out at companies to get your data removed there.
They have no legal enforcement to force a company to do so. It's just a
request. And they're collecting the same info you are trying to opt-out
of elsewhere. A company receiving the request could honor it, might
tell you when the removal was committed but more likely not, ignore your
request, or deny your request. Depends if you live in a state whose
digital privacy laws have any legal force on the company. For example,
you could use the Permissions app to issue a request to CVS to remove
your data (which also closes any account you have with them), but
they'll deny your request if you live in a state with no digital privacy
laws (e.g., Washington).

The Permissions app attempts to facilitate data removal that you could
also do by visiting the web site of each company in Permissions list.
It's akin to using a registry cleaner: should only be used to facilitate
the registry edits by those who know already how to do the edits.

Also consider data breeches. My ISP just had one, so I was required to
change my password before I could log into my account there. Now there
is another data breech vector: CR's permission service where you had to
register to use it. I have not found how CR protects its data that it
mined from its registered users of the app. Often secrecy is considered
part of security, so unlikely they will ever divulge how they protect
your data. In fact, I have not see an analysis of their web-centric app
to determine if your login credentials to use their service is encrypted
to prevent sniffing.

Asking for someone to delete your records is not a court-mandated order
for the deletion. They have your data. They may restrict or bar
external access, or redistributing your data to their "partners", but
they can still keep it for their own purposes. The scheme is based on a
trust model; however, do you trust those that have culled your
personally identifying data?

Oscar Mayer <nobody@oscarmayer.com> wrote:

> On Sat, 6 Jan 2024 23:26:57 -0500, Mickey D wrote:
>
>> Saw this on the Apple newsgroups.
>> https://www.cnet.com/tech/services-and-software/regain-control-of-your-data-in-2024-and-delete-your-digital-history-heres-how-to-do-it/
>>
>> It looks like you sign up for the Permission Slip service for each email
>> address and then you're presented with companies that collect & sell it.
>> https://permissionslipcr.com/
>>
>> The sentences that are a little worrisome though are "Permission Slip will
>> ask you a couple of questions that can help companies and data brokers
>> correctly identify you and properly take care of your information. After
>> you input your personal info the first time, the process for continuing to
>> remove your data is pretty simple. You will just scroll through Permission
>> Slip's suggestions, select companies that might have your info and then
>> delete your account or prohibit the company from using your data."
>>
>> I guess it's like that Do Not Call registry where you have to tell them who
>> you are in order for them to not sell who you are. I trust CR though.
>
> I tried to sign up (it needs your email and the password must be at least
> 12 characters and 3 out of 4 of these (upper,lower,number,symbol).
>
> The first question it asks is which state you live in.
> Rather than give them the state, which state is the most protective?
>
> What's the best state to give it (so you don't have to give it your state)?

But a company may not be national. That is, it may not have presence in
whatever state you claimed was yours.

"Mickey D" <mickeydavis078XX@ptd.net> wrote

| Saw this on the Apple newsgroups.
|
https://www.cnet.com/tech/services-and-software/regain-control-of-your-data-in-2024-and-delete-your-digital-history-heres-how-to-do-it/
|

I wouldn't sign up for anything like that. It's just giving out
dependable personal data to yet one more source, with no
way of knowing what will happen to it. There's no reason to
expect the dataminers will comply. CR isn't going to sue them.

It's not surprising, I suppose, that you saw it in an Apple
group. AppleSeeds trust their overlord with a copy of everything
on their iPhone. No wonder they trust CR to protect them from
bad guys, with no understanding at all of the issue.

According to the webpage they require a cellphone
number. Cellphones have nothing to do with online datamining.
But cellphone numbers are becoming the ultimate ID number.
That aspect alone sounds very creepy to me. Companies can
easily use the CR app to just confirm the quality of their data
on you. Then even if they do delete it, they can just get it back.

If you want privacy then there are ways to do that. Set up
a good HOSTS file. Don't use services from Google, Apple, Facebook,
etc. Limit scripting where possible. Avoid web browsing on a
cellphone... Even if AcmeData agrees to delete your data, Google
can send them another copy because you don't have a HOSTS file
designed to block their tracking.

| I guess it's like that Do Not Call registry where you have to tell them
who
| you are in order for them to not sell who you are. I trust CR though.

Do Not Call was the Federal gov't and companies were required to
check it before calling. It had nothing to do with private data per se.
Companies just had to check whether a phone number was on the list
before calling it. It was only about getting spam phone calls. And it's
no longer enforced. Datamining is about maintaining and selling a
personal dossier with any personal details about you that they can get.

On Sun, 7 Jan 2024 08:11:25 -0500, Newyana2 wrote:

> I wouldn't sign up for anything like that. It's just giving out
> dependable personal data to yet one more source, with no
> way of knowing what will happen to it. There's no reason to
> expect the dataminers will comply. CR isn't going to sue them.

I have to agree that CR isn't going to sue them, but depending on what
state you're in, they still need to comply with the privacy laws.

> It's not surprising, I suppose, that you saw it in an Apple
> group. AppleSeeds trust their overlord with a copy of everything
> on their iPhone. No wonder they trust CR to protect them from
> bad guys, with no understanding at all of the issue.
>
> According to the webpage they require a cellphone
> number. Cellphones have nothing to do with online datamining.
> But cellphone numbers are becoming the ultimate ID number.
> That aspect alone sounds very creepy to me. Companies can
> easily use the CR app to just confirm the quality of their data
> on you. Then even if they do delete it, they can just get it back.

I created an account and tested it out and they certainly DO ask for a LOT
of very personal data. For example, I picked a state that showed up as
having good privacy laws - but later on you have to enter your address.

One by one they sucked me in, first with me verifying the email and then I
had to verify the phone number - you had to verify both.

They pretty much suck you in slowly, by only asking for the state and only
later when you've already verified your email and your phone (yes, you have
to verify BOTH) then they ask your address anyway (and full legal name).

> If you want privacy then there are ways to do that. Set up
> a good HOSTS file.

I use something called Acrylic DNS but the MVP Hosts file also works good.
https://mayakron.altervista.org/support/acrylic/Home.htm
https://winhelp2002.mvps.org/hosts.htm

> Don't use services from Google, Apple, Facebook,
> etc. Limit scripting where possible. Avoid web browsing on a
> cellphone... Even if AcmeData agrees to delete your data, Google
> can send them another copy because you don't have a HOSTS file
> designed to block their tracking.

On a cellphone you could use NetGuard which has a HOSTS file though.
https://netguard.me/
>| I guess it's like that Do Not Call registry where you have to tell them
> who
>| you are in order for them to not sell who you are. I trust CR though.
>
> Do Not Call was the Federal gov't and companies were required to
> check it before calling. It had nothing to do with private data per se.
> Companies just had to check whether a phone number was on the list
> before calling it. It was only about getting spam phone calls. And it's
> no longer enforced. Datamining is about maintaining and selling a
> personal dossier with any personal details about you that they can get.

The DoNotCall seemed to work but then we seemed to get a lot of robocalls
where I wondered if the DoNotCall was the reason we got so many of them.

These robocalls seem to have tapered off in the last few months though.

Anyway, now that I tested it out I don't recommend it. But I didn't see any
way to delete the account I made. Ironic.

Am 07.01.24 um 14:11 schrieb Newyana2:
> "Mickey D" <mickeydavis078XX@ptd.net> wrote
>
> | Saw this on the Apple newsgroups.
> |
> https://www.cnet.com/tech/services-and-software/regain-control-of-your-data-in-2024-and-delete-your-digital-history-heres-how-to-do-it/
> |
>
> I wouldn't sign up for anything like that. It's just giving out
> dependable personal data to yet one more source, with no
> way of knowing what will happen to it.

*FACK*

--
"Gutta cavat lapidem." (Ovid)

On 1/6/24 8:26 PM, Mickey D wrote:
> Saw this on the Apple newsgroups.
> https://www.cnet.com/tech/services-and-software/regain-control-of-your-data-in-2024-and-delete-your-digital-history-heres-how-to-do-it/
>
> It looks like you sign up for the Permission Slip service for each email
> address and then you're presented with companies that collect & sell it.
> https://permissionslipcr.com/
>
> The sentences that are a little worrisome though are "Permission Slip will
> ask you a couple of questions that can help companies and data brokers
> correctly identify you and properly take care of your information. After
> you input your personal info the first time, the process for continuing to
> remove your data is pretty simple. You will just scroll through Permission
> Slip's suggestions, select companies that might have your info and then
> delete your account or prohibit the company from using your data."

Seems legit :-) Like giving some company the keys to your safe deposit
box -- the company will store them safely so you don't lose them...

> I guess it's like that Do Not Call registry where you have to tell them who
> you are in order for them to not sell who you are. I trust CR though.

The telemarketers who get through are all home-improvement people who
have no idea (they claim) of what the DNC thing is. Mostly they're just
dead air with an automatic hangup after 10 or 20 seconds.

I miss the nice Chinese lady who wanted to make sure I knew there were
problems with my immigration documents, though.

--
Cheers, Bev
"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute
conversation with the average voter." - Churchill

On 1/7/24 9:43 AM, The Real Bev wrote:

>The telemarketers who get through are all home-improvement people who
>have no idea (they claim) of what the DNC thing is. Mostly they're just
>dead air with an automatic hangup after 10 or 20 seconds.

I use DND (except stared contacts) since the DNC thing doesn't seem to work
very well. And the important calls usually leave a VM while the JCs usually
don't. Lucky me...

"Mickey D" <mickeydavis078XX@ptd.net> wrote

| I created an account and tested it out and they certainly DO ask for a LOT
| of very personal data. For example, I picked a state that showed up as
| having good privacy laws - but later on you have to enter your address.
| | One by one they sucked me in, first with me verifying the email and then I
| had to verify the phone number - you had to verify both.
| That's a standard trick, I suppose. Like the retail stores where
they ask, "Could I just get you phone number real quick....OK, and
last name... And first name...."

| > If you want privacy then there are ways to do that. Set up
| > a good HOSTS file.
| | I use something called Acrylic DNS but the MVP Hosts file also works good.
| https://mayakron.altervista.org/support/acrylic/Home.htm
| https://winhelp2002.mvps.org/hosts.htm
| I also use Acrylic, for the wildcards. Actually I use both
Acrylic and Unbound, on different machines.

| On a cellphone you could use NetGuard which has a HOSTS file though.
| https://netguard.me/
| Thanks. I didn't know about that. I don't use a cellphone very much,
but this still looks worth having.

On Sun, 7 Jan 2024 22:54:46 -0500, Newyana2 wrote:

> That's a standard trick, I suppose. Like the retail stores where
> they ask, "Could I just get you phone number real quick....OK, and
> last name... And first name...."

I thought it was sleazy of Consumer Reports to not be upfront, from the
very beginning, that it needed just about the same info as a RealID does.

> I also use Acrylic, for the wildcards. Actually I use both
> Acrylic and Unbound, on different machines.

I've only recently started using Acrylic for the same wildcard reason
as all the HOSTS files are getting huge with many sub domain spinoffs.
https://pgl.yoyo.org/adservers/
https://winhelp2002.mvps.org/hosts.txt
https://github.com/AdguardTeam/AdguardSDNSFilter
https://raw.gitbugusercontent.com/StevenBlack/hosts/master/hosts
https://github.com/Ultimate-Hosts-Blacklist/Ultimate.Hosts.Blacklist
https://raw.githubusercontent.com/AdguardTeam/FiltersRegistry/master/filters/filter_15_DnsFilter/filter.txt

I didn't know about Unbound though, but looking it up, MajorGeeks says
"Unbound is a command-line utility that allows you to validate and resolve
DNS caches effectively permitting you to block malicious websites"
https://www.majorgeeks.com/files/details/unbound.html

Do you use the NLLabs Unbound or the GitHub (or does it not matter)?
https://nlnetlabs.nl/projects/unbound/download/
https://github.com/NLnetLabs/unbound

The reason I ask is it greatly matters which NetGuard you use (see below).
>| On a cellphone you could use NetGuard which has a HOSTS file though.
>| https://netguard.me/
>|
> Thanks. I didn't know about that. I don't use a cellphone very much,
> but this still looks worth having.

Everyone _must_ have NetGuard. It's one of the best apps in the world.

The NetGuard app is an extremely powerful firewall that doesn't require
root on Android but be careful that you do NOT get the Google Play APK.

Google won't let any app on its repository do ad blocking by IP address.
So you have to install the NetGuard from the developer or from GitHub.
https://netguard.me/ A firewall app for non-rooted Android devices

NetGuard is a simple way to block access to the internet per application.
Applications and addresses can individually be allowed or denied access to
your Wi-Fi and/or mobile connection.

Notice why I asked you _which_ Unbound you use? That's because if you don't
know that the Google Play Store NetGuard has no HOSTS file capability, you
would get the wrong apk. You really do NOT want that Google Play Netguard.

You want this NetGuard (which isn't even discussed on _that_ web page).
https://github.com/M66B/NetGuard/releases

None of this is intuitive (which is again why I asked what seems like a
stupid question of which Unbound to download) but it's described here.
https://github.com/M66B/NetGuard/blob/master/ADBLOCKING.md

If I were you, I'd read _that_ first.
Then I'd choose an ad-blocking HOSTS file to upload into NetGuard.

With NetGuard, Android can update the HOSTS file without being rooted.

"Mickey D" <mickeydavis078XX@ptd.net> wrote

| I didn't know about Unbound though, but looking it up, MajorGeeks says
| "Unbound is a command-line utility that allows you to validate and resolve
| DNS caches effectively permitting you to block malicious websites"
| https://www.majorgeeks.com/files/details/unbound.html
| | Do you use the NLLabs Unbound or the GitHub (or does it not matter)?
| https://nlnetlabs.nl/projects/unbound/download/
| https://github.com/NLnetLabs/unbound
|

NLNet Labs. It's not commandline. It runs as a Windows service, like
Acrylic. As I understand it, Unbound is a very capable and well made
program, but it's a pain in the neck to set up and the HOSTS format is
unnecessarily complicated. (I ended up writing a VBScript to convert
normal HOSTS to Unbound HOSTS.)

My sense is that Unbound is mainly used by commercial server admins.
The kind of people who wear flip flops and an "I love DOS" t-shirt to
weddings. It was difficult to find any clear info. I've written software to
send email, use winsock, etc. So I'm not entirely unfamiliar with network
protocols. But Unbound seems to assume that one is fully trained in
all networking jargon, protocols, etc.

I'm posting my Unbound service.conf file on Windows, in case it's of
use to anyone. (It's a text file. Unbound is not commandline but there's
also no GUI. The HOSTS file is also a plain text file in the program
folder.)

I started with Unbound mainly because the early Acrylic was somewhat
buggy and would quit willy nilly. But I now have Acrylic on a couple of
Windows computers and it seems to be fine. Since I only use it for
HOSTS/DNS, I don't expect there's any notable difference. If Unbound
does more, I don't understand what that more is. But someone in a
programming newsgroup who helped me set it up assured me that
Unbound deserves an attitude of reverence.

I usually get apps from APKPure. (Though I don't "usually" get apps.
I have Firefox and a dialer set up, as well as the TracFone app to
buy more minutes. Like I said, I don't use it much. :) Can I get
NetGuard from APKPure? I assume I can't install an app via github.
The fact is that I have very little experience with Android or
Android apps. I'm thinking that maybe I could set up NetGuard for
the woman I live with, as well, but it would need to be simple once set
up. (I once tried to give her NoScript. That didn't work out.)

---------

# Unbound Windows services.conf file

# Unbound configuration file on windows.
# See example.conf for more settings and syntax
server:
verbosity: 0
directory: "%EXECUTABLE%"
username: "unbound"
use-syslog: no

# on Windows, this setting adds the certificates from the Windows
# Cert Store. For when you want to use forwarders with TLS.
tls-win-cert: yes

# listen interfaces and port
interface: 0.0.0.0
port: 53

# who can query the server
access-control: 127.0.0.0/8 allow
access-control: 192.168.0.0/16 allow

auto-trust-anchor-file: "root.key"

#
https://raw.githubusercontent.com/bagder/ca-bundle/master/ca-bundle.crt
tls-cert-bundle: "ca-bundle.crt"

# https://www.internic.net/domain/named.root
root-hints: "named.root"

prefetch: no
do-ip4: yes
do-ip6: yes
do-udp: yes
do-tcp: yes

# security/privacy
aggressive-nsec: yes
cache-max-ttl: 14400
cache-min-ttl: 1200
hide-identity: yes
hide-version: yes
harden-glue: yes
harden-dnssec-stripped: yes
val-clean-additional: yes
rrset-roundrobin: yes
use-caps-for-id: yes

include: "hosts.conf"

#Adding DNS-Over-TLS support

forward-zone:
name: "."
forward-tls-upstream: yes
# quad9
forward-addr: 9.9.9.9@853
forward-addr: 149.112.112.112@853

On Mon, 8 Jan 2024 09:30:33 -0500, Newyana2 wrote:

> NLNet Labs. It's not commandline. It runs as a Windows service, like
> Acrylic. As I understand it, Unbound is a very capable and well made
> program, but it's a pain in the neck to set up and the HOSTS format is
> unnecessarily complicated. (I ended up writing a VBScript to convert
> normal HOSTS to Unbound HOSTS.)

Thanks for that advice. I'll stick with acrylic for now then.
I downloaded it and added your information to the README for future use.
Sometimes tools are way better than they at first appear to us, I agree.

> I usually get apps from APKPure. (Though I don't "usually" get apps.

Why? You can easily download & install apps from the Google Play Store
without using the Google Play Store app (& without creating an account).

You don't need any Google account to get the apps from the Google Play
Store, and you get to keep the installers too (for reuse for your friend).

> I have Firefox and a dialer set up, as well as the TracFone app to
> buy more minutes.

Since you can download the APK directly from the developer on GitHub, and
since we know the developer says the Google Play Store version is minus the
hosts file capability, I'm not sure why you'd want to use APKPure.

But let me look in a search - it's there - but which package is it?
https://apkpure.net/netguard-no-root-firewall/eu.faircode.netguard/versions
https://apkpure.net/netguard-no-root-firewall/eu.faircode.netguard/download/2.325
https://d.cdnpure.com/b/APK/eu.faircode.netguard?version=latest

I downloaded it for you along with the GitHub version to compare the files:
Name: NetGuard - no-root firewall_2.327_Apkpure.apk
Size: 2906418 bytes (2838 KiB)
SHA256: 1D2E9464D0B15ECE00F6C0F1C04714E6991E36D3301FD92B3561E07A96323991

Name: NetGuard-v2.327-release.apk
Size: 2906062 bytes (2837 KiB)
SHA256: 6D4AFC63A53EE77D1E8654A904413CCA2EAA831E43E8D6BB40CBAD2A22C3E72B

Same version. But different hashes. I'm going to guess that the Google Play
Store version is the one that APKPure has (which would make sense also).

So AFAICT, you can't download the fully functional version from APKPure.
But why not just download it from GitHub like everyone else does?
https://github.com/M66B/NetGuard
https://github.com/M66B/NetGuard/releases
https://github.com/M66B/NetGuard/releases/download/2.327/NetGuard-v2.327-release.apk

> I'm thinking that maybe I could set up NetGuard for
> the woman I live with, as well, but it would need to be simple once set
> up. (I once tried to give her NoScript. That didn't work out.)

Anything that plays with javascript and/or cookies messes with people's
minds when all they want is a browser that does what they want it to do.

The nice thing about NetGuard is it has a "disable" switch, so if it blocks
too much for her, or if it is blocking a specific app specifically for
wi-fi, she can disable the entire NetGuard firewall in a single action.

That disable even has an automatic re-enable after a set time period.

But I'm not sure which feature of NetGuard that you want most, for you or
for her as it does different things depending on how it's set up.

The bad thing about NetGuard is it's a firewall.
And a HOSTS file (that can block domain names).
With a whitelist, and with a blacklist.
And an ad blocker (which uses that HOSTS file).
And it blocks on a per-app basis.
It can block, per app, the app's Wi-Fi access.
Or it can block, per app, the app's cellular data access.
It can block roaming by EU, INternataional, LTE, 3G, 2G, whatever.
It can have rules for only when the screen is on.
It can log all Internet access and track network usage.
It can manage rules for system apps specifically.
It can send notifications on Internet access.
It can filter UDP traffic and do port forwarding and SOCKS5 and PCAP.
It can do subnet routing to enable Wi-Fi calling.
It can import/export & backup settings (to use your setup with hers).
And it acts as a VPN.

While it's easy to use, and well respected and safe, it's kind of like the
power of the tor browser where most people will be burned by it in the end.

You should use it for yourself first, and decide - but I wouldn't do it for
her until you export your well-tested setup and then import into her phone.

I probably gave you too much information - but you seem like a guy who can
handle the information overload. My suggestion is to stop using APKPure.

Why do you use APKPure anyway?
There's nothing APKPure gives you that you don't already have.

"Mickey D" <mickeydavis078XX@ptd.net> wrote

| > I usually get apps from APKPure. (Though I don't "usually" get apps.
| | Why? You can easily download & install apps from the Google Play Store
| without using the Google Play Store app (& without creating an account).
| | You don't need any Google account to get the apps from the Google Play
| Store, and you get to keep the installers too (for reuse for your friend).
|

I've used APKPure to avoid Google and Google accounts. I wasn't
aware that APKs could be installed by hand, but I did find instructions
for it yesterday.

As I said earlier, I don't use my cellphone for much. I treat it as mostly
just a portable phone booth -- since real phone booths have disappeared.
It sits in the glove compartment, turned off, most of the time.

The whole idea of using a computer that I have almost no control over
gives me the creeps. Recently I decided to let it upgrade for the first
time and that turned out to be a mistake. Now, every time I turn it on
there's a stream of popup nags telling me that various things I've
disalbed can't work without Google Play Services or some such enabled!

I'm loathe top spend 2 months trying to learn how to manage Android
adeptly, given that it seems to be a losing battle, with Android designed
as a kiosk system by arguably the sleaziest tech company of all.

| So AFAICT, you can't download the fully functional version from APKPure.
| But why not just download it from GitHub like everyone else does?
| https://github.com/M66B/NetGuard
| https://github.com/M66B/NetGuard/releases
|
https://github.com/M66B/NetGuard/releases/download/2.327/NetGuard-v2.327-release.apk
|

I will. Thank you.

| The bad thing about NetGuard is it's a firewall.
| And a HOSTS file (that can block domain names).
| With a whitelist, and with a blacklist.
| And an ad blocker (which uses that HOSTS file).
| And it blocks on a per-app basis.

Amazing. That's one of the critical features that I've always
found lacking on Linux -- A simple, easy-to-use firewall that
can block outgoing on a per-app basis.

| It can block, per app, the app's Wi-Fi access.
| Or it can block, per app, the app's cellular data access.
| It can block roaming by EU, INternataional, LTE, 3G, 2G, whatever.
| It can have rules for only when the screen is on.
| It can log all Internet access and track network usage.
| It can manage rules for system apps specifically.
| It can send notifications on Internet access.
| It can filter UDP traffic and do port forwarding and SOCKS5 and PCAP.
| It can do subnet routing to enable Wi-Fi calling.
| It can import/export & backup settings (to use your setup with hers).

| And it acts as a VPN.
|

VPN? To use NetGuard is to go through their server? Are you
saying that that's how all the functionality works -- that it
doesn't actually function in Android but rather provides a
man-in-the-middle filter online? And people trust the NetGuard
server... why?

| While it's easy to use, and well respected and safe, it's kind of like the
| power of the tor browser where most people will be burned by it in the
end.
| I see what you mean. So it needs some knowledgeable config.

| Why do you use APKPure anyway?
| There's nothing APKPure gives you that you don't already have.

I assumed that such a service was the only way to get something
installed. So, then, what's the other option? Say, for example, that
I wanted an Explorer-type program. I found such a thing on APKPure.
If I didn't go there, how would I find and access such a program?
In the case of my friend, she has an app from Cornell to ID birdsong
and something else to ID plants. If I were searching with no
information, not knowing about those apps, how would I find them?
How would I discover the possible selection? And once I found, say,
the Cornell app, how would I get it? Are they all different, such that
I might need to find a URL for Cornell, but perhaps a Github URL for
another similar app? So, then, is it like going to a software download
site vs the author's site? On Windows that's a complicated affair. For
instance, MajorGeeks might have software that no longer has a
website. On the other hand, I'd never download from CNet. Softpedia
doesn't work without enabling javascript. And some sources might
give me malware.

(I've seen many times in my own server logs where someone found my
software at a download site and tried to download an outdated version.
The link is dead, so they come to my site directly. They confirm that
the software exists, ignore my direct link, and go back to the download
site to get a few more 404s before giving up. :) So perhaps that's
basically what I'm doing with APKPure?

I think I've got this all figured out. Thanks. I instaled it, set up
HOSTS, and
enabled blocking of system apps.

On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 15:47:53 -0500, Newyana2 wrote:

> I think I've got this all figured out. Thanks.
> I instaled it, set up HOSTS, and enabled blocking of system apps.

Thank you for posting back as many people don't afford the courtesy.

What's nice about NetGuard is not only that it's free and has no
advertisements but that it works as a non-root firewall and/or ad blocker.
(1) There is the easy firewall per network (eg wifi or data) per app
(2) There is the ad blocker per HOSTS file (which is not on Google Play)
(3) And there are all the fancy settings to log & control things

Once you have it set up perfectly, you can export the settings.
Then import than into your friend's device.

But I'd be most worried that ANY firewall is too much firewall for most
people (who don't know how to debug when something suddenly doesn't work).

The fully functional NetGuard isn't on the Google Play Store though.
https://github.com/M66B/NetGuard/releases/download/2.327/NetGuard-v2.327-release.apk

On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 09:14:56 -0500, Newyana2 wrote:

> I've used APKPure to avoid Google and Google accounts.

The way to avoid the Google account is to not set it up in the first place.
Since every Google app has a FOSS equivalent, it's easy not to have it.

You were using APKPure as the equivalent of the Google Play Store client.
That works because they give you the same APK as you find on Google's repo.

But there are also a few very nice FOSS Google Play Store clients too.

Like any browser acts similarly on any given server, these FOSS Google Play
Store clients look and act like the Google Play Store client.

Without you having to create a Google account set up on your phone.

> I wasn't aware that APKs could be installed by hand, but I did find
> instructions for it yesterday.

I don't know what you mean by "installed by hand" but I assume you mean you
weren't aware that APKs are installed just by tapping on them in Android.

You can always install any APK just from having saved that APK anywhere.
(1) You copy the APK from anywhere to the phone storage
(2) Then you tap on that APK and it will ask you if you want to install it

You don't need any applications whatsoever. Not a browser. Not a client.
Nothing. Android comes native with an APK installer.

What most people do is keep an APK archive on their network storage drive.
That archive contains every APK that they ever installed on their phone.

Including the subversions (just in case they want to roll a version back).

That way when they get a new phone or populate someone else's phone, they
just connect the network storage drive and copy over the APKs to the phone.

> As I said earlier, I don't use my cellphone for much. I treat it as mostly
> just a portable phone booth -- since real phone booths have disappeared.
> It sits in the glove compartment, turned off, most of the time.

Understood. That some give babies an old broken phone to play with shows
that we probably are using the phone too much during our daily existence.

> The whole idea of using a computer that I have almost no control over
> gives me the creeps. Recently I decided to let it upgrade for the first
> time and that turned out to be a mistake. Now, every time I turn it on
> there's a stream of popup nags telling me that various things I've
> disalbed can't work without Google Play Services or some such enabled!

Disabling Google Play Services (com.google.android.gms) kills a lot.
https://developers.google.com/android/reference/packages

I don't know if you can turn off all notifications (probably you can).
But you can turn off specific notifications (different by version).
https://www.digitaltrends.com/mobile/how-to-turn-off-notifications-in-android/

> I'm loathe top spend 2 months trying to learn how to manage Android
> adeptly, given that it seems to be a losing battle, with Android designed
> as a kiosk system by arguably the sleaziest tech company of all.

You learn Android by trying to make it do what you want to make it do.
It seems the first thing you must do, you already did long ago.

And that is to set up the Android device without any Google account on it.
People who have not done that will never understand how Android works.

If you already have an account set up, you need to remove that account.
Once you remove that account, you replace the Google apps with FOSS apps.

It's really that easy.

>| So AFAICT, you can't download the fully functional version from APKPure.
>| But why not just download it from GitHub like everyone else does?
>| https://github.com/M66B/NetGuard
>| https://github.com/M66B/NetGuard/releases
>|
> https://github.com/M66B/NetGuard/releases/download/2.327/NetGuard-v2.327-release.apk
> I will. Thank you.

I see that you did this and you responded back that it worked for you.

You probably picked up that APK using a web browser on Android, and then
the web browser asked if it could install that app for you, and then
Android asked if that was OK with you - and then Android installed the app.

But in reality you didn't need the web browser at all.
You could have downloaded that app and just saved it to your device.

Then you could have used any file manager to find that APK on your device.
And you could have tapped on the APK which does the same things.

The web browser isn't needed.
It's just a way to get the app.

And a special app installer isn't needed either (like the APKPure one).
Because Android already has an app installer native.

Not to delve too deep, but there are "split APKs" which I know APKPure
handles but I'm not sure if the native Android installer handles those.

I've never had to deal with a split APK yet.
I don't even know where to get them to test that concept out.

>| The bad thing about NetGuard is it's a firewall.
>| And a HOSTS file (that can block domain names).
>| With a whitelist, and with a blacklist.
>| And an ad blocker (which uses that HOSTS file).
>| And it blocks on a per-app basis.
>
> Amazing. That's one of the critical features that I've always
> found lacking on Linux -- A simple, easy-to-use firewall that
> can block outgoing on a per-app basis.

NetGuard is a wonderful firewall whose advantage is it works without root.
It's also nice that it's free. And it has no advertisements. No annoyances.

But you have to be careful how you set it up as you can block too much.

>| It can block, per app, the app's Wi-Fi access.
>| Or it can block, per app, the app's cellular data access.
>| It can block roaming by EU, INternataional, LTE, 3G, 2G, whatever.
>| It can have rules for only when the screen is on.
>| It can log all Internet access and track network usage.
>| It can manage rules for system apps specifically.
>| It can send notifications on Internet access.
>| It can filter UDP traffic and do port forwarding and SOCKS5 and PCAP.
>| It can do subnet routing to enable Wi-Fi calling.
>| It can import/export & backup settings (to use your setup with hers).
>
>| And it acts as a VPN.
>|
>
> VPN? To use NetGuard is to go through their server? Are you
> saying that that's how all the functionality works -- that it
> doesn't actually function in Android but rather provides a
> man-in-the-middle filter online? And people trust the NetGuard
> server... why?

No. It does NOT go through any server that I know of, so that's not what I
had meant by it acts like a VPN. I don't know really, how NetGuard does it.

NetGuard avoids root I think by impersonating a VPN which I've never really
understood - but I hope it doesn't prevent you from using another VPN?

I don't know how that works so if you figure that out, let me know.

>| While it's easy to use, and well respected and safe, it's kind of like the
>| power of the tor browser where most people will be burned by it in the
> end.
>|
> I see what you mean. So it needs some knowledgeable config.

It's too powerful in some ways.
Especially if you set up rules, whitelists, blacklists and the like.

You could set up an app, for example, to have no data access.
But to have Wi-Fi access.

And then you forget, months later, that you had set that app that way.
Months layer you try to use that app on cellular data and it fails.
But it works on Wi-Fi.

Now you have to debug why it's not working on cellular but ok on Wi-Fi.

When something doesn't work, you can always disable NetGuard to debug.
It has an automatic re-enable (off by default) after a set time period.

When it happens to you, you can debug by temporarily disabling NetGuard.
When it happens to her, she will call your 800 number for customer support.

>| Why do you use APKPure anyway?
>| There's nothing APKPure gives you that you don't already have.
>
> I assumed that such a service was the only way to get something
> installed. So, then, what's the other option?

It's a good thing you said you didn't know much about Android as one of the
first thing anyone learns about Android is how to populate it with APKs.

It populates no different than Windows does (browser, wget, whatever).

Let's take the example of this NetGuard APK to show you how it works.
Let's say you're on Windows most of the time - so I'll use that example.

Archiving APK installers is the same as Windows archives its installers.

(1) You use a search engine to find the URL to any installer you want
https://github.com/M66B/NetGuard/releases/download/2.327/NetGuard-v2.327-release.apk
(2) You use any downloader program to get that URL into your archives
wget github.com/M66B/NetGuard/releases/download/2.327/NetGuard-v2.327-release.apk
(3) You organize your archive as you see fit to save for future use
E:\myandroidapps\firewalls\NetGuard-v2.327-release.apk

Installing on Android is the same as how Windows does for msi or exe files.

Minutes, hours, days, weeks, months or years after you've archived it...
(1) You copy that APK over to your Android phone (any way you can)
(2) On your Android phone you tap on the APK
(3) Android will ask you if you want to install it

"Mickey D" <mickeydavis078XX@ptd.net> wrote

| You can always install any APK just from having saved that APK anywhere.
| (1) You copy the APK from anywhere to the phone storage
| (2) Then you tap on that APK and it will ask you if you want to install it
|

This reminds me of the first time I used a computer. Someone
gave me their old Win3.1. I set out to install Mindspring on it and
discover the Internet. What followed was 5 hours trying to figure
out how to access a floppy from the desktop. Even the paper
help manual didn't tell me. It assumed that I knew! It took awhile
to grasp that the desktop metaphor is actually not useful.

| Disabling Google Play Services (com.google.android.gms) kills a lot.
| https://developers.google.com/android/reference/packages
| | I don't know if you can turn off all notifications (probably you can).
| But you can turn off specific notifications (different by version).
|
https://www.digitaltrends.com/mobile/how-to-turn-off-notifications-in-android/
|

That won't work. It allows me to disable user-level app
notifications, but I don't have access to things like "Device
Health" that complain they need GPServices.

The nags to enable it showed up after a recent system update.
So it seems Google is "taking off the kid gloves".

I found an interesting aspect of the NetGuard settings. If I
enable blocking System I can see over 100 apps, most of which
don't have meaningful names. Some are just things like
comp.android.abcde.934.

It would be interesting to find a master list of those.

I've blocked nearly all from online access and Firefox
still gets through. Phone calls still work. Nice.

| NetGuard avoids root I think by impersonating a VPN which I've never
really
| understood - but I hope it doesn't prevent you from using another VPN?
|

Not sure, but the explanation seems to say that they have
to use the VPN service to get a man-in-the-middle hook into
network calls, but that it's not actually working via VPN. The
only catch, apparently, is that you'd have to disable NetGuard
if you want to actually use a VPN. So, yes. It does prevent
a concurrent VPN.

| Let's take the example of this NetGuard APK to show you how it works.
| Let's say you're on Windows most of the time - so I'll use that example.
| | Archiving APK installers is the same as Windows archives its installers.
| | (1) You use a search engine to find the URL to any installer you want
|
https://github.com/M66B/NetGuard/releases/download/2.327/NetGuard-v2.327-release.apk
| (2) You use any downloader program to get that URL into your archives
| wget
github.com/M66B/NetGuard/releases/download/2.327/NetGuard-v2.327-release.apk
| (3) You organize your archive as you see fit to save for future use
| E:\myandroidapps\firewalls\NetGuard-v2.327-release.apk
| | Installing on Android is the same as how Windows does for msi or exe
files.
| | Minutes, hours, days, weeks, months or years after you've archived it...
| (1) You copy that APK over to your Android phone (any way you can)
| (2) On your Android phone you tap on the APK
| (3) Android will ask you if you want to install it
| | Do you agree that this is exactly the same method that Windows uses?
| Apparently. Except that I'm adept at storage and backup on Windows,
while managing files on Android is a new adventure.

|| I know of debuggers which dig into an msi file to tell you what it's
doing
| but I don't know of any apps that will re-create that msi of you lose it.
|

No. But one can save copies. I generally save copies of
installers and back them up. Webpages are not dependable.

|
| You sit at your computer, let's assume it's a Windows computer for now.
| You run a Google/DDG/Metager search to find the name of an app you like.
|

That's also how I find Windows software. Though it's a slow
process and a lot of people out there don't know what they're
talking about. I found programs like Audacity and Avidemux that
way, but not without an afternoon of searching and testing. The
best options are rarely the most well known.

| You can download those APKs with a web browser on Windows and save them.
| Then you copy the APKs over to Android and tap on them to install them.
|

Funny. I would have thought that option was for people
like me who don't know Android well. I do dislike the Lilliputian
screen with every action that I need to take. It's a very
clever design overall, but made for 12" high elves who have
never known the efficiency of context menus.

Thank you for your time with this.