On Monday, January 3, 2022 at 2:57:25 PM UTC-8, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Friday, December 31, 2021 at 2:45:49 PM UTC-6, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 12/31/2021 3:24 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > On Friday, December 31, 2021 at 2:13:57 PM UTC-6, Luns Tee wrote:
> > >> On Tuesday, December 28, 2021 at 5:16:17 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> > >>> On 12/28/2021 7:01 PM, Luns Tee wrote:
> > >>
> > >>>> On a related note, while I haven't tried it yet, I suspect that barge glue would work perfectly well as tube patching cement. I may try it when my tube of Rema dries up, but only if my tube of barge hasn't done the same in the meanwhile.
> > >>>>
> > >>> Nice product. I'm a fan (we even have the special $$ Barge
> > >>> thinner here) but not for inner tubes.
> > >>>
> > >>> A Rema or other quality rubber patching system is chemically
> > >>> superior to a regular (or even super duper) adhesive, making
> > >>> sulphur and zinc 'cold vulcanize' bonds.
> > >>>
> > >>> https://www.reddit.com/r/bicycling/comments/fhf03/how_do_vulcanizing_tire_patches_work/
> > >> Thanks for the link Andrew. I remember in past discussions of whether tube cement vulcanizes or not, there being a lot of hearsay evidence and marketing materials, but nothing to convince me one way or the other. I do recall one somewhat credible voice on the side suggesting no vulcanizing actually happens, but the reddit post is swaying me in the other direction.
> > >>
> > >> I'm going to guess though, there may be a case here that both sides are correct. I will hazard to guess that some patch cements - even ones labelled as being vulcanizing - are simple rubber cements (rubber in a solvent) with no chemical magic, while products from Rema or other quality systems really do their homework and are indeed superior. It's not unlikely that Ted's experience may come down to recently using cements in the former group after decades with the latter.
> > >>
> > >> -Luns
> > >
> > > One more thing to add to all of the comments about patching. After patching a tube, inflate it for a night or two or three and make sure it holds air. Test it at home before you put the patched tube back in your spare tube rotation to use out on the road. When it really matters if the patch held or not.
> > I think that would work if the tube was installed in a tire and inflated
> > to full pressure. But an inflated naked tube would have only a couple
> > psi pressure, not enough to push a noticeable volume of air through a
> > tiny leak.
> >
> > --
> > - Frank Krygowski
>
> I did say to inflate your newly patched tube for ONE, TWO, or THREE days. 24, 48, 72 hours. I don't care how tiny the leak is or how low the pressure is in the uninstalled tube. It will leak more than enough in that length of time to determine if you patched it correctly or not. Test the newly patched tube at home before taking it out on the road.

Russell, what do you do if you have a tube with large pores in it? This can often go flat or near flat in three days. This is why I switched to Continental innertubes - they are built more carefully and hold air longer before requiring repumping.

On 1/2/2022 4:09 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

<snip>

> Yep. The Camel set had some loose square pieces of what looks like
> automotive inner tube material.

So were those square pieces that you cut into smaller patches
"glue-only?" I can't remember. It was so long ago.

I admit, I don't do patches very often anymore. Even with recent price
increases, I'm paying less than $4 for high-quality tubes so the time to
patch a tube, and the hope that the patch will hold, isn't worth the
time and trouble. I also have a lot fewer punctures thanks to using
tires that are more puncture resistant (but with higher rolling resistance).

On Tue, 4 Jan 2022 09:02:23 -0800, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com>
wrote:

>On 1/2/2022 4:09 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> Yep. The Camel set had some loose square pieces of what looks like
>> automotive inner tube material.

>So were those square pieces that you cut into smaller patches
>"glue-only?" I can't remember. It was so long ago.

I don't recall. I don't think I ever tried using the square cut
patches.
<https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/bagAAOSwIhVdVNIf/s-l1600.jpg>

I'm beginning to wonder if any of the information about or procedures
for bicycle patches are correct. For example, the bulk of the Rema
"cold vulcanizing fluid" is naphtha, the purpose of which is to soften
and de-vulcanize the inner tube surface to expose more surface carbon
atoms in preparation for subsequent vulcanization.
<https://www.rematiptop.com/assets/tech/trm/sds/RTT-TRM-047%20Rev%204%20Vulcanizing%20Fluid%2003172020%20JFO.pdf>
There's also n-Ethylcyclohexylamine, which is a vulcanization
accelerator, and hexane which is a polymerization initiator use to
create long chain rubber polymers. As far as I can tell so far, the
"cold vulcanizing fluid" has little to do with vulcanization.

I can't tell where this is leading me, but my guess(tm) is that
relying solely on vulcanization to provide sufficient adhesion between
the inner tube and the patch, isn't sufficient. That's where methinks
the "rubber glue" comes in to save the day. It's the combination of
vulcanization and gluing that does the job, the failure of either the
vulcanization or gluing (or both) that causes the patch to fail.

I went on a side trip this morning to see if any of the components
involved produced any gasses when stuck together. My initial
guess(tm) was the exposed carbon atoms were bonding with atmospheric
oxygen to produce CO2. I tried gluing a patch to a square of inner
tube rubber, immediately immersing the sandwich in water, and looking
for bubbles. Two tries and no bubbles. I then replaced the inner
tube with a glass microscope slide and tried again. I had to dope the
glue with a phosphorescent dye:
<https://www.amazon.com/FJC-4926-Universal-Radiator-Coolant/dp/B0049MEDJ4>
Looking around the feathered circumference of the patch, no bubbles.
Therefore, if the purpose of the stitcher/roller was to remove air
bubble, the bubbles are not coming from a chemical reaction in the
patch or glue.

I'm out of patches and glue and will need to so some shopping to
continue. My guess is about 2-3 days before my next installment of
"everything you know about tire patches is wrong".

>I admit, I don't do patches very often anymore. Even with recent price
>increases, I'm paying less than $4 for high-quality tubes so the time to
>patch a tube, and the hope that the patch will hold, isn't worth the
>time and trouble. I also have a lot fewer punctures thanks to using
>tires that are more puncture resistant (but with higher rolling resistance).

That was my logic about 10 years ago, when I stocked up on Nashbar
inner tubes. Unfortunately, they all developed tiny slow leaks.
Fortunately, they didn't leak enough to spoil a ride if I remembered
to top off the tire pressure.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Tue, 04 Jan 2022 11:52:28 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:
>Well... one could inflate the newly patched tube to, as you say, 100
>PSI which would certainly be a real test of the patch. My guess is
>that the patch would not fail (:-)

I don't think it's possible to inflate a bicycle inner tube to
anything near 100 psi without having something blow up. I'll try it.
What can possibly go wrong?

<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/crud/inflated-tube.jpg>
26x2.125 presta valve. I pumped and I pumped and I gave up when the
tube had expanded to a dangerously large 33x3.0" dia. For comparison,
the tires on my bicycle is 26x1.50. I didn't want to explode the tube
so I stopped pumping. Final pressure was less than 10 lbs (minimum
reading on my floor pump). I'm glad I didn't try it with my air
compressor.

If you plan to inflate a bicycle inner tube to 100 psi, you might find
yourself with a compressed air circular rocket instead.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 2022-01-03, russellseaton1@yahoo.com <ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

<snip>

> I did say to inflate your newly patched tube for ONE,
> TWO, or THREE days. 24, 48, 72 hours. I don't care how
> tiny the leak is or how low the pressure is in the
> uninstalled tube. It will leak more than enough in that
> length of time to determine if you patched it correctly
> or not. Test the newly patched tube at home before
> taking it out on the road.

I remember that Jobst was a big proponent of letting
patches cure for a time...forget how long.

My experience is that once I've gotten the casing off and
found the hole, examined the casing for the culprit was
that I then had that fine black road/tire grime all over my
fingers.

If I used one of those fingers to spread the glue was when
I had my spate of poorly sticking patches. Once I figured
that out and began using a clean knuckle instead I had no
problem.

I typically put it right back into service. I also will
carry one spare tube in my handlebar bag.

Rule of thumb: Get twice as big a handlebar bag (if you
decide to use one) than you think you need.
Mine can get as bad as a woman's purse with all the stuff
in it.

pH

On Wednesday, January 5, 2022 at 1:09:10 a.m. UTC-5, pH wrote:
> On 2022-01-03, russell...@yahoo.com <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> <snip>
> > I did say to inflate your newly patched tube for ONE,
> > TWO, or THREE days. 24, 48, 72 hours. I don't care how
> > tiny the leak is or how low the pressure is in the
> > uninstalled tube. It will leak more than enough in that
> > length of time to determine if you patched it correctly
> > or not. Test the newly patched tube at home before
> > taking it out on the road.
> I remember that Jobst was a big proponent of letting
> patches cure for a time...forget how long.
>
> My experience is that once I've gotten the casing off and
> found the hole, examined the casing for the culprit was
> that I then had that fine black road/tire grime all over my
> fingers.
>
> If I used one of those fingers to spread the glue was when
> I had my spate of poorly sticking patches. Once I figured
> that out and began using a clean knuckle instead I had no
> problem.
>
> I typically put it right back into service. I also will
> carry one spare tube in my handlebar bag.
>
> Rule of thumb: Get twice as big a handlebar bag (if you
> decide to use one) than you think you need.
> Mine can get as bad as a woman's purse with all the stuff
> in it.
>
> pH

Decades ago I was on my way home one dark miserably cold night when it it was raining and I got a puncture in my rear tire. It was such a small puncture that even putting the tube in a puddle to find the hole was in vain. After that i always carry a spare tube. Sometimes I'll even carry two spare tubes.

I also used a threadless stem and a cut down handlebar so that i can mount my handlebar bag on the seatpost where the weight in the handlebar bag does not affect the handling of the bike. That handlebar bag is big enough for a light jacket and a pair of tights besides the repair kit, spare tubes and snacks..

Cheers

On 1/5/2022 1:09 AM, pH wrote:
>
>
> Rule of thumb: Get twice as big a handlebar bag (if you
> decide to use one) than you think you need.
> Mine can get as bad as a woman's purse with all the stuff
> in it.

I have a handlebar bag on all bikes but one - the about-town 3 speed
with a small wire basket instead.

My favorite handlebar bag is one of the two I made myself. And yes, I
was careful to design it to be as big as practical.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 2022-01-05, Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 1/5/2022 1:09 AM, pH wrote:
>>
>>
>> Rule of thumb: Get twice as big a handlebar bag (if you
>> decide to use one) than you think you need.
>> Mine can get as bad as a woman's purse with all the stuff
>> in it.
>
> I have a handlebar bag on all bikes but one - the about-town 3 speed
> with a small wire basket instead.
>
> My favorite handlebar bag is one of the two I made myself. And yes, I
> was careful to design it to be as big as practical.
>
>

I wonder if you could post a link to a photograph or two of that bag.

I'm using a Carradice that I got from Rivendell many moons ago....bag in
front is helpful when you stop; swoop up found tool; continue when in
traffic.

pH

On 1/5/2022 5:42 PM, pH wrote:
> On 2022-01-05, Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> On 1/5/2022 1:09 AM, pH wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Rule of thumb: Get twice as big a handlebar bag (if you
>>> decide to use one) than you think you need.
>>> Mine can get as bad as a woman's purse with all the stuff
>>> in it.
>>
>> I have a handlebar bag on all bikes but one - the about-town 3 speed
>> with a small wire basket instead.
>>
>> My favorite handlebar bag is one of the two I made myself. And yes, I
>> was careful to design it to be as big as practical.
>>
>>
>
> I wonder if you could post a link to a photograph or two of that bag.
>
> I'm using a Carradice that I got from Rivendell many moons ago....bag in
> front is helpful when you stop; swoop up found tool; continue when in
> traffic.

I don't seem to have a wonderful photo of just the bag. Here's the bike,
some years ago:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/16972296@N08/51802231601/in/dateposted-public/

The bag is supported by a tubular frame clamped to the handlebar via
brackets from a set of aero bars, drop-in style IIRC. The frame is
strong enough to work well with a hidden aero bar grip that works with
eElbow pads on the handlebars. All pockets are internal, except for two
on the back side out of the wind. The bag also supports the headlight.
(The old halogen light shown has long since been replaced by a B&M LED
unit.)

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 2022-01-05, Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 1/5/2022 5:42 PM, pH wrote:
>> On 2022-01-05, Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> On 1/5/2022 1:09 AM, pH wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Rule of thumb: Get twice as big a handlebar bag (if you
>>>> decide to use one) than you think you need.
>>>> Mine can get as bad as a woman's purse with all the stuff
>>>> in it.
>>>
>>> I have a handlebar bag on all bikes but one - the about-town 3 speed
>>> with a small wire basket instead.
>>>
>>> My favorite handlebar bag is one of the two I made myself. And yes, I
>>> was careful to design it to be as big as practical.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I wonder if you could post a link to a photograph or two of that bag.
>>
>> I'm using a Carradice that I got from Rivendell many moons ago....bag in
>> front is helpful when you stop; swoop up found tool; continue when in
>> traffic.
>
> I don't seem to have a wonderful photo of just the bag. Here's the bike,
> some years ago:
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/16972296@N08/51802231601/in/dateposted-public/
>
> The bag is supported by a tubular frame clamped to the handlebar via
> brackets from a set of aero bars, drop-in style IIRC. The frame is
> strong enough to work well with a hidden aero bar grip that works with
> eElbow pads on the handlebars. All pockets are internal, except for two
> on the back side out of the wind. The bag also supports the headlight.
> (The old halogen light shown has long since been replaced by a B&M LED
> unit.)
>

Ahhhh! That is a *lovely* machine. It appears to be a Cannondale frame
with the world-famous-accept-no-substitutes SunTour BarCon shifters. Those
are the ones God uses. I like barcon shifters.

I used to have 1/2 step shifting but changed mine over to mountain bike
style 10 tooth steps in front.

That is a good-looking front bag and kind of reminds me of one of the
locomotive streamliners of days gone by (steam).

Thank-you for those nice photos.

pH

On Wednesday, January 5, 2022 at 5:40:14 PM UTC-8, pH wrote:
> On 2022-01-05, Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > On 1/5/2022 5:42 PM, pH wrote:
> >> On 2022-01-05, Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>> On 1/5/2022 1:09 AM, pH wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Rule of thumb: Get twice as big a handlebar bag (if you
> >>>> decide to use one) than you think you need.
> >>>> Mine can get as bad as a woman's purse with all the stuff
> >>>> in it.
> >>>
> >>> I have a handlebar bag on all bikes but one - the about-town 3 speed
> >>> with a small wire basket instead.
> >>>
> >>> My favorite handlebar bag is one of the two I made myself. And yes, I
> >>> was careful to design it to be as big as practical.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> I wonder if you could post a link to a photograph or two of that bag.
> >>
> >> I'm using a Carradice that I got from Rivendell many moons ago....bag in
> >> front is helpful when you stop; swoop up found tool; continue when in
> >> traffic.
> >
> > I don't seem to have a wonderful photo of just the bag. Here's the bike,
> > some years ago:
> >
> > https://www.flickr.com/photos/16972296@N08/51802231601/in/dateposted-public/
> >
> > The bag is supported by a tubular frame clamped to the handlebar via
> > brackets from a set of aero bars, drop-in style IIRC. The frame is
> > strong enough to work well with a hidden aero bar grip that works with
> > eElbow pads on the handlebars. All pockets are internal, except for two
> > on the back side out of the wind. The bag also supports the headlight.
> > (The old halogen light shown has long since been replaced by a B&M LED
> > unit.)
> >
> Ahhhh! That is a *lovely* machine. It appears to be a Cannondale frame
> with the world-famous-accept-no-substitutes SunTour BarCon shifters. Those
> are the ones God uses. I like barcon shifters.
>
> I used to have 1/2 step shifting but changed mine over to mountain bike
> style 10 tooth steps in front.
>
> That is a good-looking front bag and kind of reminds me of one of the
> locomotive streamliners of days gone by (steam).
>
> Thank-you for those nice photos.
>

Aw, shucks! :-) Your welcome!

On Tuesday, January 4, 2022 at 10:52:24 AM UTC-6, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, January 3, 2022 at 2:57:25 PM UTC-8, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Friday, December 31, 2021 at 2:45:49 PM UTC-6, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > On 12/31/2021 3:24 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > > On Friday, December 31, 2021 at 2:13:57 PM UTC-6, Luns Tee wrote:
> > > >> On Tuesday, December 28, 2021 at 5:16:17 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> > > >>> On 12/28/2021 7:01 PM, Luns Tee wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>>> On a related note, while I haven't tried it yet, I suspect that barge glue would work perfectly well as tube patching cement. I may try it when my tube of Rema dries up, but only if my tube of barge hasn't done the same in the meanwhile.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>> Nice product. I'm a fan (we even have the special $$ Barge
> > > >>> thinner here) but not for inner tubes.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> A Rema or other quality rubber patching system is chemically
> > > >>> superior to a regular (or even super duper) adhesive, making
> > > >>> sulphur and zinc 'cold vulcanize' bonds.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> https://www.reddit.com/r/bicycling/comments/fhf03/how_do_vulcanizing_tire_patches_work/
> > > >> Thanks for the link Andrew. I remember in past discussions of whether tube cement vulcanizes or not, there being a lot of hearsay evidence and marketing materials, but nothing to convince me one way or the other. I do recall one somewhat credible voice on the side suggesting no vulcanizing actually happens, but the reddit post is swaying me in the other direction.
> > > >>
> > > >> I'm going to guess though, there may be a case here that both sides are correct. I will hazard to guess that some patch cements - even ones labelled as being vulcanizing - are simple rubber cements (rubber in a solvent) with no chemical magic, while products from Rema or other quality systems really do their homework and are indeed superior. It's not unlikely that Ted's experience may come down to recently using cements in the former group after decades with the latter.
> > > >>
> > > >> -Luns
> > > >
> > > > One more thing to add to all of the comments about patching. After patching a tube, inflate it for a night or two or three and make sure it holds air. Test it at home before you put the patched tube back in your spare tube rotation to use out on the road. When it really matters if the patch held or not.
> > > I think that would work if the tube was installed in a tire and inflated
> > > to full pressure. But an inflated naked tube would have only a couple
> > > psi pressure, not enough to push a noticeable volume of air through a
> > > tiny leak.
> > >
> > > --
> > > - Frank Krygowski
> >
> > I did say to inflate your newly patched tube for ONE, TWO, or THREE days. 24, 48, 72 hours. I don't care how tiny the leak is or how low the pressure is in the uninstalled tube. It will leak more than enough in that length of time to determine if you patched it correctly or not. Test the newly patched tube at home before taking it out on the road.
>
> Russell, what do you do if you have a tube with large pores in it? This can often go flat or near flat in three days. This is why I switched to Continental innertubes - they are built more carefully and hold air longer before requiring repumping.

Large pores? The tube is porous? Loses air quickly? Like latex tubes supposedly. They go flat overnight or something like that I think. I only use butyl rubber tubes. Ones that hold air for many days or weeks without any loss. But if my bike has been sitting for weeks or so, I do always pump it up to hard before riding. Butyl tubes do lose air over a long time period.

My post about checking patch jobs by inflating the tube and letting it sit for a few days was to find any obvious and immediate leaks, mistakes. Put some air in the tube and let it sit for a few days. If its still inflated, then you are OK. If its flat, then bad patching job. I do not mean to pump the tube to 100 psi. Wait one day and check the pressure and its 99 psi. Wait one more day and its 98 psi. Wait one more day and its 97 psi. Maybe that is way too fast of an air leak and the patching job is bad. But its still good enough for bicycle riding. My worry is a patched job was bad and it goes flat and holds zero air when you try it out on the road. Do a test at home beforehand.

On 1/5/2022 2:42 PM, pH wrote:

<snip>

> I'm using a Carradice that I got from Rivendell many moons ago....bag in
> front is helpful when you stop; swoop up found tool; continue when in
> traffic.

I bought a canvas handlebar bag "Zimbale" from South Korea. I guess it's
somewhat of a copy of the Carradice bags. See
<https://www.ebay.com/itm/333248195815>. It can go on the saddle or the
handlebars.

I did make a handlebar support for it out of a piece of aluminum round
stock. Without the support it would hit the brake-set.

The 7 liter one that I bought is the smallest. They also have larger
ones (11 liter and 16 liter).

I have a Carradice bag for my Brompton. Very nice and very expensive,
though I bought it at Interbike from the Carradice booth at the end of
the show for a good price (the last day of Interbike was always a great
time to buy stuff, in cash, from the exhibitors that did not want to
ship stuff back).

On 1/4/2022 12:54 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Tue, 4 Jan 2022 09:02:23 -0800, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com>
> wrote:

<snip>

> That was my logic about 10 years ago, when I stocked up on Nashbar
> inner tubes. Unfortunately, they all developed tiny slow leaks.
> Fortunately, they didn't leak enough to spoil a ride if I remembered
> to top off the tire pressure.

You may have ordered their low-end tubes which included slow leaks.

I have so many tubes in my garage from when my kids were progressing
through 16", 20", and 24" wheeled bicycles. I need to gather those up
and donate them to Good Karma Bikes. I used to just fix the bikes of the
neighborhood kids, but most of them have grown up, but lately we've seen
a little turnover in houses with some new kids.

I remember bicycling in China in the 1980's. If you had a flat you
pulled over to a roadside bicycle repair stand and they patched the tube
and inflated your repaired tube for a few cents. Now, in my area, people
drive the whole bike to a bike shop and pay $10-15 to get a new tube
installed, and it's not "while-you-wait" in many cases.

Trek now charges $10.49 for a plain Presta 48mm valve tube, and
Specialized charges $8. Those are the online prices at their own
websites, not sure how much their dealers charge.

I used to think that I had enough tubes to last me for the duration,
until new tire sizes like 29" and 27.5" came along. When I got the
spousal unit a mountain bike there were no more good 26" wheeled models,
it was a choice of 27.5" and 29".

On Thursday, January 6, 2022 at 8:43:15 AM UTC-8, sms wrote:
> On 1/4/2022 12:54 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> > On Tue, 4 Jan 2022 09:02:23 -0800, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
> > wrote:
> <snip>
> > That was my logic about 10 years ago, when I stocked up on Nashbar
> > inner tubes. Unfortunately, they all developed tiny slow leaks.
> > Fortunately, they didn't leak enough to spoil a ride if I remembered
> > to top off the tire pressure.
> You may have ordered their low-end tubes which included slow leaks.
>
> I have so many tubes in my garage from when my kids were progressing
> through 16", 20", and 24" wheeled bicycles. I need to gather those up
> and donate them to Good Karma Bikes. I used to just fix the bikes of the
> neighborhood kids, but most of them have grown up, but lately we've seen
> a little turnover in houses with some new kids.
>
> I remember bicycling in China in the 1980's. If you had a flat you
> pulled over to a roadside bicycle repair stand and they patched the tube
> and inflated your repaired tube for a few cents. Now, in my area, people
> drive the whole bike to a bike shop and pay $10-15 to get a new tube
> installed, and it's not "while-you-wait" in many cases.
>
> Trek now charges $10.49 for a plain Presta 48mm valve tube, and
> Specialized charges $8. Those are the online prices at their own
> websites, not sure how much their dealers charge.
>
> I used to think that I had enough tubes to last me for the duration,
> until new tire sizes like 29" and 27.5" came along. When I got the
> spousal unit a mountain bike there were no more good 26" wheeled models,
> it was a choice of 27.5" and 29".
As we all know, you had to special order the Nashbar tubes with slow leaks.

Nashbar sold tubes for racing and they were thin. So of course the leaked faster than the heavy duty or compression molded tubes like Continental.

On Sun, 2 Jan 2022 06:56:26 -0800, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com>
wrote:

>Back in my day we used to hot patch tubes. None of this left-wing pinko
>gluing. See <https://i.imgur.com/E2UNqEc.jpg>.

Video of a burning patch failure in action:
"fix an inner tube with burning rubber"
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSsjyzRJH4Q> (9:32)
He puts a patch intended for an automotive tire on a rather narrow
bicycle inner tube. Eventually, it sprung a leak. I especially like
the part where he ignites the device in his kitchen, which promptly
fills with smoke, and then notices that his smoke alarm didn't work.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Thursday, December 30, 2021 at 5:00:47 PM UTC-6, AMuzi wrote:
> On 12/30/2021 3:45 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > On Thursday, December 30, 2021 at 10:14:38 PM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 12/30/2021 2:40 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> >>> On Thursday, December 30, 2021 at 9:21:39 PM UTC+1, frkr...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>> On Thursday, December 30, 2021 at 11:30:23 AM UTC-8, Ted Heise wrote:
> >>>>> On Wed, 29 Dec 2021 08:30:11 -0800 (PST),
> >>>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>> On Wednesday, December 29, 2021 at 5:25:52 AM UTC-8, Ted Heise wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Wed, 29 Dec 2021 09:02:24 +0700,
> >>>>>>> John B <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On Tue, 28 Dec 2021 19:16:12 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On 12/28/2021 7:01 PM, Luns Tee wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, December 28, 2021 at 6:52:02 AM UTC-8, Ted Heise wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> I'll rumage around in the garage and see what other
> >>>>>>>>>>> solvents I have available. Probably residues from the
> >>>>>>>>>>> fragrances they tend to put in fingernail polish remover
> >>>>>>>>>>> would run counter to effective cleaning.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Somewhat related to the application of patches to inner
> >>>>>>>>>> tubes is the attachment of soles to shoes. I'd asked the
> >>>>>>>>>> local shoe repair place what they do to clean surfaces
> >>>>>>>>>> prior to gluing, and they were cagey with their answer
> >>>>>>>>>> until after I'd paid for the barge cement. While I was
> >>>>>>>>>> expecting a chemical answer, the final answer was:
> >>>>>>>>>> sandpaper. This made complete sense in retrospect, and
> >>>>>>>>>> agrees exactly with Jobst Brandt's writings on the
> >>>>>>>>>> subject. Rather than clean the surface of whatever
> >>>>>>>>>> substances may interfere with gluing, they both advocate
> >>>>>>>>>> that you remove the surface altogether, exposing bare
> >>>>>>>>>> material.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Chemical cleaning may work if the only contaminant of
> >>>>>>>>>> interest is known to be soluable, in which case the
> >>>>>>>>>> cleaner substituting for the sanding (buffing) makes it a
> >>>>>>>>>> chemical buffer. However, if the surface is of talc-based
> >>>>>>>>>> mold release that's captured in the surface of the
> >>>>>>>>>> rubber, I don't know that any solvent would help with a
> >>>>>>>>>> good bond.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> I haven't had an adhesive failure which I felt could have
> >>>>>>>>>> been avoided by the use of chemicals, but I haven't had
> >>>>>>>>>> sufficient samples of both to know for sure. I'm more
> >>>>>>>>>> than happy to manually sand surfaces I'm gluing - be they
> >>>>>>>>>> tubes or shoes - rather than unnecessarily expose myself
> >>>>>>>>>> to solvent vapours.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> On a related note, while I haven't tried it yet, I
> >>>>>>>>>> suspect that barge glue would work perfectly well as tube
> >>>>>>>>>> patching cement. I may try it when my tube of Rema dries
> >>>>>>>>>> up, but only if my tube of barge hasn't done the same in
> >>>>>>>>>> the meanwhile.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Nice product. I'm a fan (we even have the special $$ Barge
> >>>>>>>>> thinner here) but not for inner tubes.
> >>>>>>>>> A Rema or other quality rubber patching system is
> >>>>>>>>> chemically superior to a regular (or even super duper)
> >>>>>>>>> adhesive, making sulphur and zinc 'cold vulcanize' bonds.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/bicycling/comments/fhf03/how_do_vulcanizing_tire_patches_work/
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Somewhere I have read that bicycle tubes can be made from
> >>>>>>>> natural rubber or butyl rubber in which case the
> >>>>>>>> "vulcanizing" action if any will require different chemicals
> >>>>>>>> depending on the type of rubber. I believe that natural
> >>>>>>>> rubber uses some form of sulphur compound.
> >>>>>>> Interesting thought. It caused me to reflect a bit more on my
> >>>>>>> experience of the last 1-2 years, and I realized that patch
> >>>>>>> failures have more often than not happened on tubes that had a
> >>>>>>> number of prior patches (2-4 on average) all of which were by
> >>>>>>> definition obviously successful. So this additional fact makes
> >>>>>>> me think the current problems are unlikely due to differences
> >>>>>>> in tire material or mold release agents, and puts the "glue"
> >>>>>>> and/or patch materials back at top of the suspect list.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I've got some Rema patch kits coming, and intend to use them
> >>>>>>> for a time--holding the other kits back until I see if I've
> >>>>>>> better luck with the Remas. At some point, if the failures
> >>>>>>> keep happening, I'll probably just give up on patching
> >>>>>>> entirely.
> >>>>>> Back when we patched car tire innertubes after gluing and
> >>>>>> placing the patch we would clamp it in a device that looked like
> >>>>>> a C-clamp for 15 minutes or so.
> >>>>> Good thought, and somewhat similar I think to a point Frank made.
> >>>>> I may try clamping. Does anyone think this might take the place
> >>>>> of the stitcher that Andrew suggested?
> >>>> I'm sure clamping would work as well or better than stitching, or than my two dowel method.
> >>>> But I doubt its worth the extra trouble. I've had only very few patches fail. The only exceptions might
> >>>> be those applied in bad conditions, roadside.
> >>>>
> >>>> A recent one was odd, BTW. Came out of the grocery store and loaded up, and maybe two miles later
> >>>> noticed a seriously low rear tire. Pumped it up, rode home, and it didn't leak. I thought
> >>>> maybe someone had pranked me. A couple weeks later on a different utility ride I noticed it low
> >>>> again. Refilled, rode home and removed the tube. I could see a suspicious edge on a patch. I don't
> >>>> know how it would leak only sometimes, though.
> >>>>
> >>>> I guess the question is, how often do people have patches fail? That would indicate how much
> >>>> more careful we need to be.
> >>>>
> >>>> - Frank Krygowski
> >>>
> >>> I just press the patch with my thumb a couple of times.
> >>>
> >>> Lou
> >>>
> >> Tech & Rema brand patches have a clear plastic cover sheet.
> >> A stitcher krinkles it, shows that you've pressed the entire
> >> surface.
> >> --
> >> Andrew Muzi
> >> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> >> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> >
> > I don’t know what a stitcher is, but the patches I use are thumbsize so it is hard to mis a spot. I just leave the clear cover on. It doesn’t bother me. I think what is important to let the patch ‘cure’ for a while before use the tube again. I use your solvant technique to clean the tube. Works great. Never understood the sandpaper thing. You can easily mis a spot.
> >
> > Lou
> >
>
> I'm not saying you need one but this is a patch stitcher:
>
> https://products.techtirerepairs.com/product/1-8in-stitcher-plastic-handle/
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 1/7/2022 1:50 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Thursday, December 30, 2021 at 5:00:47 PM UTC-6, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 12/30/2021 3:45 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>> On Thursday, December 30, 2021 at 10:14:38 PM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 12/30/2021 2:40 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>> On Thursday, December 30, 2021 at 9:21:39 PM UTC+1, frkr...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Thursday, December 30, 2021 at 11:30:23 AM UTC-8, Ted Heise wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wed, 29 Dec 2021 08:30:11 -0800 (PST),
>>>>>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, December 29, 2021 at 5:25:52 AM UTC-8, Ted Heise wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 29 Dec 2021 09:02:24 +0700,
>>>>>>>>> John B <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 28 Dec 2021 19:16:12 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 12/28/2021 7:01 PM, Luns Tee wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, December 28, 2021 at 6:52:02 AM UTC-8, Ted Heise wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'll rumage around in the garage and see what other
>>>>>>>>>>>>> solvents I have available. Probably residues from the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> fragrances they tend to put in fingernail polish remover
>>>>>>>>>>>>> would run counter to effective cleaning.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Somewhat related to the application of patches to inner
>>>>>>>>>>>> tubes is the attachment of soles to shoes. I'd asked the
>>>>>>>>>>>> local shoe repair place what they do to clean surfaces
>>>>>>>>>>>> prior to gluing, and they were cagey with their answer
>>>>>>>>>>>> until after I'd paid for the barge cement. While I was
>>>>>>>>>>>> expecting a chemical answer, the final answer was:
>>>>>>>>>>>> sandpaper. This made complete sense in retrospect, and
>>>>>>>>>>>> agrees exactly with Jobst Brandt's writings on the
>>>>>>>>>>>> subject. Rather than clean the surface of whatever
>>>>>>>>>>>> substances may interfere with gluing, they both advocate
>>>>>>>>>>>> that you remove the surface altogether, exposing bare
>>>>>>>>>>>> material.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Chemical cleaning may work if the only contaminant of
>>>>>>>>>>>> interest is known to be soluable, in which case the
>>>>>>>>>>>> cleaner substituting for the sanding (buffing) makes it a
>>>>>>>>>>>> chemical buffer. However, if the surface is of talc-based
>>>>>>>>>>>> mold release that's captured in the surface of the
>>>>>>>>>>>> rubber, I don't know that any solvent would help with a
>>>>>>>>>>>> good bond.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I haven't had an adhesive failure which I felt could have
>>>>>>>>>>>> been avoided by the use of chemicals, but I haven't had
>>>>>>>>>>>> sufficient samples of both to know for sure. I'm more
>>>>>>>>>>>> than happy to manually sand surfaces I'm gluing - be they
>>>>>>>>>>>> tubes or shoes - rather than unnecessarily expose myself
>>>>>>>>>>>> to solvent vapours.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On a related note, while I haven't tried it yet, I
>>>>>>>>>>>> suspect that barge glue would work perfectly well as tube
>>>>>>>>>>>> patching cement. I may try it when my tube of Rema dries
>>>>>>>>>>>> up, but only if my tube of barge hasn't done the same in
>>>>>>>>>>>> the meanwhile.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Nice product. I'm a fan (we even have the special $$ Barge
>>>>>>>>>>> thinner here) but not for inner tubes.
>>>>>>>>>>> A Rema or other quality rubber patching system is
>>>>>>>>>>> chemically superior to a regular (or even super duper)
>>>>>>>>>>> adhesive, making sulphur and zinc 'cold vulcanize' bonds.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/bicycling/comments/fhf03/how_do_vulcanizing_tire_patches_work/
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Somewhere I have read that bicycle tubes can be made from
>>>>>>>>>> natural rubber or butyl rubber in which case the
>>>>>>>>>> "vulcanizing" action if any will require different chemicals
>>>>>>>>>> depending on the type of rubber. I believe that natural
>>>>>>>>>> rubber uses some form of sulphur compound.
>>>>>>>>> Interesting thought. It caused me to reflect a bit more on my
>>>>>>>>> experience of the last 1-2 years, and I realized that patch
>>>>>>>>> failures have more often than not happened on tubes that had a
>>>>>>>>> number of prior patches (2-4 on average) all of which were by
>>>>>>>>> definition obviously successful. So this additional fact makes
>>>>>>>>> me think the current problems are unlikely due to differences
>>>>>>>>> in tire material or mold release agents, and puts the "glue"
>>>>>>>>> and/or patch materials back at top of the suspect list.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I've got some Rema patch kits coming, and intend to use them
>>>>>>>>> for a time--holding the other kits back until I see if I've
>>>>>>>>> better luck with the Remas. At some point, if the failures
>>>>>>>>> keep happening, I'll probably just give up on patching
>>>>>>>>> entirely.
>>>>>>>> Back when we patched car tire innertubes after gluing and
>>>>>>>> placing the patch we would clamp it in a device that looked like
>>>>>>>> a C-clamp for 15 minutes or so.
>>>>>>> Good thought, and somewhat similar I think to a point Frank made.
>>>>>>> I may try clamping. Does anyone think this might take the place
>>>>>>> of the stitcher that Andrew suggested?
>>>>>> I'm sure clamping would work as well or better than stitching, or than my two dowel method.
>>>>>> But I doubt its worth the extra trouble. I've had only very few patches fail. The only exceptions might
>>>>>> be those applied in bad conditions, roadside.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A recent one was odd, BTW. Came out of the grocery store and loaded up, and maybe two miles later
>>>>>> noticed a seriously low rear tire. Pumped it up, rode home, and it didn't leak. I thought
>>>>>> maybe someone had pranked me. A couple weeks later on a different utility ride I noticed it low
>>>>>> again. Refilled, rode home and removed the tube. I could see a suspicious edge on a patch. I don't
>>>>>> know how it would leak only sometimes, though.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I guess the question is, how often do people have patches fail? That would indicate how much
>>>>>> more careful we need to be.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>>>
>>>>> I just press the patch with my thumb a couple of times.
>>>>>
>>>>> Lou
>>>>>
>>>> Tech & Rema brand patches have a clear plastic cover sheet.
>>>> A stitcher krinkles it, shows that you've pressed the entire
>>>> surface.
>>>> --
>>>> Andrew Muzi
>>>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>>>
>>> I don’t know what a stitcher is, but the patches I use are thumbsize so it is hard to mis a spot. I just leave the clear cover on. It doesn’t bother me. I think what is important to let the patch ‘cure’ for a while before use the tube again. I use your solvant technique to clean the tube. Works great. Never understood the sandpaper thing. You can easily mis a spot.
>>>
>>> Lou
>>>
>>
>> I'm not saying you need one but this is a patch stitcher:
>>
>> https://products.techtirerepairs.com/product/1-8in-stitcher-plastic-handle/
>> --
>> Andrew Muzi
>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>
> Andy, I'm mad at you now!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> I clicked on your link, links, for tire stichers and clicked on other cool looking tire repairing stuff, and now Amazon thinks that is my thing. And sent an email to me advertising all sorts of wild car tire repairing tools. Such as:
>
> Steelman Heavy Duty Low Speed Tire Buffer, 3/8-Inch Quick-Change...
>
> Low Speed Air Tire Buffer Tire Repair Tool Polishing Tool Kit,
>
> Together-life Small Pneumatic Tire Buffing Wheel Repair Grinding
>
> Steelman Tungsten Carbide Buffing Wheel with Adapter, ⅜ Inch Arbor,
>
> Steelman Tire and Tube Patch Auto Repair Stitcher Tool, Prevents.. (this is your stitcher Andy)
>
> Walfront 2500rpm Low Speed Pneumatic Tire Buffing Wheel Repair...
>
> Acouto 38mm 70 Grid Tire Buffer Wheel Abrasiveness Coarse Buffing..
>
> Ingersoll Rand 327LS Heavy Duty 3/8-Inch Chuck Low Speed Tire Buffer
>
> 38mm Tire Buffer Wheel Abrasiveness Coarse Buffing Wheel with.
>
> Ken-Tool 34645 Mt and Demount Iron, 37In, 3/4 in STK , black (one heck of a tire iron, crow bar!!!!!)
>
> Western Weld Clear All Purpose Tire Repair Vulcanizing Cement Brush... (for all those talking about tire cement, this looks like the cure)
>
> OEMTOOLS 24447 16 Piece Locking Lug Master Key Set, Wheel Lock Key,.
>
> AGS Ru-Glyde Tire Mounting Paste for Alloy Wheels, Low Profile, and...
>
> It was a long Amazon advertisement. Now I will admit all of the tools looked great and really fun to use. I'd love to get that Ingersoll Rand air grinder and chuck some of the abrasive wheels listed above into it and really grind the bejeezus out of a tire. Fun fun fun. But I'm worried now Amazon might think car tire repair is my main concern and forget to send me emails for all the other cool stuff they sell. Like bicycles and computer and stereo and food too. OHHHHH the terrible problems modern man faces. Missing out on more applicable Amazon emails.
>

On Friday, January 7, 2022 at 11:50:55 AM UTC-8, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Thursday, December 30, 2021 at 5:00:47 PM UTC-6, AMuzi wrote:
> > On 12/30/2021 3:45 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > On Thursday, December 30, 2021 at 10:14:38 PM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:
> > >> On 12/30/2021 2:40 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > >>> On Thursday, December 30, 2021 at 9:21:39 PM UTC+1, frkr...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >>>> On Thursday, December 30, 2021 at 11:30:23 AM UTC-8, Ted Heise wrote:
> > >>>>> On Wed, 29 Dec 2021 08:30:11 -0800 (PST),
> > >>>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>>>> On Wednesday, December 29, 2021 at 5:25:52 AM UTC-8, Ted Heise wrote:
> > >>>>>>> On Wed, 29 Dec 2021 09:02:24 +0700,
> > >>>>>>> John B <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>> On Tue, 28 Dec 2021 19:16:12 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>> On 12/28/2021 7:01 PM, Luns Tee wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, December 28, 2021 at 6:52:02 AM UTC-8, Ted Heise wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> I'll rumage around in the garage and see what other
> > >>>>>>>>>>> solvents I have available. Probably residues from the
> > >>>>>>>>>>> fragrances they tend to put in fingernail polish remover
> > >>>>>>>>>>> would run counter to effective cleaning.
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> Somewhat related to the application of patches to inner
> > >>>>>>>>>> tubes is the attachment of soles to shoes. I'd asked the
> > >>>>>>>>>> local shoe repair place what they do to clean surfaces
> > >>>>>>>>>> prior to gluing, and they were cagey with their answer
> > >>>>>>>>>> until after I'd paid for the barge cement. While I was
> > >>>>>>>>>> expecting a chemical answer, the final answer was:
> > >>>>>>>>>> sandpaper. This made complete sense in retrospect, and
> > >>>>>>>>>> agrees exactly with Jobst Brandt's writings on the
> > >>>>>>>>>> subject. Rather than clean the surface of whatever
> > >>>>>>>>>> substances may interfere with gluing, they both advocate
> > >>>>>>>>>> that you remove the surface altogether, exposing bare
> > >>>>>>>>>> material.
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> Chemical cleaning may work if the only contaminant of
> > >>>>>>>>>> interest is known to be soluable, in which case the
> > >>>>>>>>>> cleaner substituting for the sanding (buffing) makes it a
> > >>>>>>>>>> chemical buffer. However, if the surface is of talc-based
> > >>>>>>>>>> mold release that's captured in the surface of the
> > >>>>>>>>>> rubber, I don't know that any solvent would help with a
> > >>>>>>>>>> good bond.
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> I haven't had an adhesive failure which I felt could have
> > >>>>>>>>>> been avoided by the use of chemicals, but I haven't had
> > >>>>>>>>>> sufficient samples of both to know for sure. I'm more
> > >>>>>>>>>> than happy to manually sand surfaces I'm gluing - be they
> > >>>>>>>>>> tubes or shoes - rather than unnecessarily expose myself
> > >>>>>>>>>> to solvent vapours.
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> On a related note, while I haven't tried it yet, I
> > >>>>>>>>>> suspect that barge glue would work perfectly well as tube
> > >>>>>>>>>> patching cement. I may try it when my tube of Rema dries
> > >>>>>>>>>> up, but only if my tube of barge hasn't done the same in
> > >>>>>>>>>> the meanwhile.
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> Nice product. I'm a fan (we even have the special $$ Barge
> > >>>>>>>>> thinner here) but not for inner tubes.
> > >>>>>>>>> A Rema or other quality rubber patching system is
> > >>>>>>>>> chemically superior to a regular (or even super duper)
> > >>>>>>>>> adhesive, making sulphur and zinc 'cold vulcanize' bonds.
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/bicycling/comments/fhf03/how_do_vulcanizing_tire_patches_work/
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Somewhere I have read that bicycle tubes can be made from
> > >>>>>>>> natural rubber or butyl rubber in which case the
> > >>>>>>>> "vulcanizing" action if any will require different chemicals
> > >>>>>>>> depending on the type of rubber. I believe that natural
> > >>>>>>>> rubber uses some form of sulphur compound.
> > >>>>>>> Interesting thought. It caused me to reflect a bit more on my
> > >>>>>>> experience of the last 1-2 years, and I realized that patch
> > >>>>>>> failures have more often than not happened on tubes that had a
> > >>>>>>> number of prior patches (2-4 on average) all of which were by
> > >>>>>>> definition obviously successful. So this additional fact makes
> > >>>>>>> me think the current problems are unlikely due to differences
> > >>>>>>> in tire material or mold release agents, and puts the "glue"
> > >>>>>>> and/or patch materials back at top of the suspect list.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> I've got some Rema patch kits coming, and intend to use them
> > >>>>>>> for a time--holding the other kits back until I see if I've
> > >>>>>>> better luck with the Remas. At some point, if the failures
> > >>>>>>> keep happening, I'll probably just give up on patching
> > >>>>>>> entirely.
> > >>>>>> Back when we patched car tire innertubes after gluing and
> > >>>>>> placing the patch we would clamp it in a device that looked like
> > >>>>>> a C-clamp for 15 minutes or so.
> > >>>>> Good thought, and somewhat similar I think to a point Frank made.
> > >>>>> I may try clamping. Does anyone think this might take the place
> > >>>>> of the stitcher that Andrew suggested?
> > >>>> I'm sure clamping would work as well or better than stitching, or than my two dowel method.
> > >>>> But I doubt its worth the extra trouble. I've had only very few patches fail. The only exceptions might
> > >>>> be those applied in bad conditions, roadside.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> A recent one was odd, BTW. Came out of the grocery store and loaded up, and maybe two miles later
> > >>>> noticed a seriously low rear tire. Pumped it up, rode home, and it didn't leak. I thought
> > >>>> maybe someone had pranked me. A couple weeks later on a different utility ride I noticed it low
> > >>>> again. Refilled, rode home and removed the tube. I could see a suspicious edge on a patch. I don't
> > >>>> know how it would leak only sometimes, though.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I guess the question is, how often do people have patches fail? That would indicate how much
> > >>>> more careful we need to be.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> - Frank Krygowski
> > >>>
> > >>> I just press the patch with my thumb a couple of times.
> > >>>
> > >>> Lou
> > >>>
> > >> Tech & Rema brand patches have a clear plastic cover sheet.
> > >> A stitcher krinkles it, shows that you've pressed the entire
> > >> surface.
> > >> --
> > >> Andrew Muzi
> > >> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> > >> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> > >
> > > I don’t know what a stitcher is, but the patches I use are thumbsize so it is hard to mis a spot. I just leave the clear cover on. It doesn’t bother me. I think what is important to let the patch ‘cure’ for a while before use the tube again. I use your solvant technique to clean the tube. Works great. Never understood the sandpaper thing. You can easily mis a spot.
> > >
> > > Lou
> > >
> >
> > I'm not saying you need one but this is a patch stitcher:
> >
> > https://products.techtirerepairs.com/product/1-8in-stitcher-plastic-handle/
> > --
> > Andrew Muzi
> > <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> > Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>
> Andy, I'm mad at you now!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> I clicked on your link, links, for tire stichers and clicked on other cool looking tire repairing stuff, and now Amazon thinks that is my thing. And sent an email to me advertising all sorts of wild car tire repairing tools.. Such as:
>
> Steelman Heavy Duty Low Speed Tire Buffer, 3/8-Inch Quick-Change...
>
> Low Speed Air Tire Buffer Tire Repair Tool Polishing Tool Kit,
>
> Together-life Small Pneumatic Tire Buffing Wheel Repair Grinding
>
> Steelman Tungsten Carbide Buffing Wheel with Adapter, ⅜ Inch Arbor,
>
> Steelman Tire and Tube Patch Auto Repair Stitcher Tool, Prevents.. (this is your stitcher Andy)
>
> Walfront 2500rpm Low Speed Pneumatic Tire Buffing Wheel Repair...
>
> Acouto 38mm 70 Grid Tire Buffer Wheel Abrasiveness Coarse Buffing..
>
> Ingersoll Rand 327LS Heavy Duty 3/8-Inch Chuck Low Speed Tire Buffer
>
> 38mm Tire Buffer Wheel Abrasiveness Coarse Buffing Wheel with.
>
> Ken-Tool 34645 Mt and Demount Iron, 37In, 3/4 in STK , black (one heck of a tire iron, crow bar!!!!!)
>
> Western Weld Clear All Purpose Tire Repair Vulcanizing Cement Brush... (for all those talking about tire cement, this looks like the cure)
>
> OEMTOOLS 24447 16 Piece Locking Lug Master Key Set, Wheel Lock Key,.
>
> AGS Ru-Glyde Tire Mounting Paste for Alloy Wheels, Low Profile, and...
>
> It was a long Amazon advertisement. Now I will admit all of the tools looked great and really fun to use. I'd love to get that Ingersoll Rand air grinder and chuck some of the abrasive wheels listed above into it and really grind the bejeezus out of a tire. Fun fun fun. But I'm worried now Amazon might think car tire repair is my main concern and forget to send me emails for all the other cool stuff they sell. Like bicycles and computer and stereo and food too. OHHHHH the terrible problems modern man faces. Missing out on more applicable Amazon emails.

On 1/7/2022 2:12 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Friday, January 7, 2022 at 11:50:55 AM UTC-8, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>> On Thursday, December 30, 2021 at 5:00:47 PM UTC-6, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 12/30/2021 3:45 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>> On Thursday, December 30, 2021 at 10:14:38 PM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>> On 12/30/2021 2:40 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>>> On Thursday, December 30, 2021 at 9:21:39 PM UTC+1, frkr...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thursday, December 30, 2021 at 11:30:23 AM UTC-8, Ted Heise wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Wed, 29 Dec 2021 08:30:11 -0800 (PST),
>>>>>>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, December 29, 2021 at 5:25:52 AM UTC-8, Ted Heise wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 29 Dec 2021 09:02:24 +0700,
>>>>>>>>>> John B <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 28 Dec 2021 19:16:12 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 12/28/2021 7:01 PM, Luns Tee wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, December 28, 2021 at 6:52:02 AM UTC-8, Ted Heise wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'll rumage around in the garage and see what other
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> solvents I have available. Probably residues from the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fragrances they tend to put in fingernail polish remover
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would run counter to effective cleaning.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Somewhat related to the application of patches to inner
>>>>>>>>>>>>> tubes is the attachment of soles to shoes. I'd asked the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> local shoe repair place what they do to clean surfaces
>>>>>>>>>>>>> prior to gluing, and they were cagey with their answer
>>>>>>>>>>>>> until after I'd paid for the barge cement. While I was
>>>>>>>>>>>>> expecting a chemical answer, the final answer was:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> sandpaper. This made complete sense in retrospect, and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> agrees exactly with Jobst Brandt's writings on the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> subject. Rather than clean the surface of whatever
>>>>>>>>>>>>> substances may interfere with gluing, they both advocate
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that you remove the surface altogether, exposing bare
>>>>>>>>>>>>> material.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chemical cleaning may work if the only contaminant of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> interest is known to be soluable, in which case the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> cleaner substituting for the sanding (buffing) makes it a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> chemical buffer. However, if the surface is of talc-based
>>>>>>>>>>>>> mold release that's captured in the surface of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> rubber, I don't know that any solvent would help with a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> good bond.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I haven't had an adhesive failure which I felt could have
>>>>>>>>>>>>> been avoided by the use of chemicals, but I haven't had
>>>>>>>>>>>>> sufficient samples of both to know for sure. I'm more
>>>>>>>>>>>>> than happy to manually sand surfaces I'm gluing - be they
>>>>>>>>>>>>> tubes or shoes - rather than unnecessarily expose myself
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to solvent vapours.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On a related note, while I haven't tried it yet, I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> suspect that barge glue would work perfectly well as tube
>>>>>>>>>>>>> patching cement. I may try it when my tube of Rema dries
>>>>>>>>>>>>> up, but only if my tube of barge hasn't done the same in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the meanwhile.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Nice product. I'm a fan (we even have the special $$ Barge
>>>>>>>>>>>> thinner here) but not for inner tubes.
>>>>>>>>>>>> A Rema or other quality rubber patching system is
>>>>>>>>>>>> chemically superior to a regular (or even super duper)
>>>>>>>>>>>> adhesive, making sulphur and zinc 'cold vulcanize' bonds.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/bicycling/comments/fhf03/how_do_vulcanizing_tire_patches_work/
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Somewhere I have read that bicycle tubes can be made from
>>>>>>>>>>> natural rubber or butyl rubber in which case the
>>>>>>>>>>> "vulcanizing" action if any will require different chemicals
>>>>>>>>>>> depending on the type of rubber. I believe that natural
>>>>>>>>>>> rubber uses some form of sulphur compound.
>>>>>>>>>> Interesting thought. It caused me to reflect a bit more on my
>>>>>>>>>> experience of the last 1-2 years, and I realized that patch
>>>>>>>>>> failures have more often than not happened on tubes that had a
>>>>>>>>>> number of prior patches (2-4 on average) all of which were by
>>>>>>>>>> definition obviously successful. So this additional fact makes
>>>>>>>>>> me think the current problems are unlikely due to differences
>>>>>>>>>> in tire material or mold release agents, and puts the "glue"
>>>>>>>>>> and/or patch materials back at top of the suspect list.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I've got some Rema patch kits coming, and intend to use them
>>>>>>>>>> for a time--holding the other kits back until I see if I've
>>>>>>>>>> better luck with the Remas. At some point, if the failures
>>>>>>>>>> keep happening, I'll probably just give up on patching
>>>>>>>>>> entirely.
>>>>>>>>> Back when we patched car tire innertubes after gluing and
>>>>>>>>> placing the patch we would clamp it in a device that looked like
>>>>>>>>> a C-clamp for 15 minutes or so.
>>>>>>>> Good thought, and somewhat similar I think to a point Frank made.
>>>>>>>> I may try clamping. Does anyone think this might take the place
>>>>>>>> of the stitcher that Andrew suggested?
>>>>>>> I'm sure clamping would work as well or better than stitching, or than my two dowel method.
>>>>>>> But I doubt its worth the extra trouble. I've had only very few patches fail. The only exceptions might
>>>>>>> be those applied in bad conditions, roadside.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A recent one was odd, BTW. Came out of the grocery store and loaded up, and maybe two miles later
>>>>>>> noticed a seriously low rear tire. Pumped it up, rode home, and it didn't leak. I thought
>>>>>>> maybe someone had pranked me. A couple weeks later on a different utility ride I noticed it low
>>>>>>> again. Refilled, rode home and removed the tube. I could see a suspicious edge on a patch. I don't
>>>>>>> know how it would leak only sometimes, though.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I guess the question is, how often do people have patches fail? That would indicate how much
>>>>>>> more careful we need to be.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I just press the patch with my thumb a couple of times.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lou
>>>>>>
>>>>> Tech & Rema brand patches have a clear plastic cover sheet.
>>>>> A stitcher krinkles it, shows that you've pressed the entire
>>>>> surface.
>>>>> --
>>>>> Andrew Muzi
>>>>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>>>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>>>>
>>>> I don’t know what a stitcher is, but the patches I use are thumbsize so it is hard to mis a spot. I just leave the clear cover on. It doesn’t bother me. I think what is important to let the patch ‘cure’ for a while before use the tube again. I use your solvant technique to clean the tube. Works great. Never understood the sandpaper thing. You can easily mis a spot.
>>>>
>>>> Lou
>>>>
>>>
>>> I'm not saying you need one but this is a patch stitcher:
>>>
>>> https://products.techtirerepairs.com/product/1-8in-stitcher-plastic-handle/
>>> --
>>> Andrew Muzi
>>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>>
>> Andy, I'm mad at you now!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>> I clicked on your link, links, for tire stichers and clicked on other cool looking tire repairing stuff, and now Amazon thinks that is my thing. And sent an email to me advertising all sorts of wild car tire repairing tools. Such as:
>>
>> Steelman Heavy Duty Low Speed Tire Buffer, 3/8-Inch Quick-Change...
>>
>> Low Speed Air Tire Buffer Tire Repair Tool Polishing Tool Kit,
>>
>> Together-life Small Pneumatic Tire Buffing Wheel Repair Grinding
>>
>> Steelman Tungsten Carbide Buffing Wheel with Adapter, ⅜ Inch Arbor,
>>
>> Steelman Tire and Tube Patch Auto Repair Stitcher Tool, Prevents.. (this is your stitcher Andy)
>>
>> Walfront 2500rpm Low Speed Pneumatic Tire Buffing Wheel Repair...
>>
>> Acouto 38mm 70 Grid Tire Buffer Wheel Abrasiveness Coarse Buffing..
>>
>> Ingersoll Rand 327LS Heavy Duty 3/8-Inch Chuck Low Speed Tire Buffer
>>
>> 38mm Tire Buffer Wheel Abrasiveness Coarse Buffing Wheel with.
>>
>> Ken-Tool 34645 Mt and Demount Iron, 37In, 3/4 in STK , black (one heck of a tire iron, crow bar!!!!!)
>>
>> Western Weld Clear All Purpose Tire Repair Vulcanizing Cement Brush... (for all those talking about tire cement, this looks like the cure)
>>
>> OEMTOOLS 24447 16 Piece Locking Lug Master Key Set, Wheel Lock Key,.
>>
>> AGS Ru-Glyde Tire Mounting Paste for Alloy Wheels, Low Profile, and...
>>
>> It was a long Amazon advertisement. Now I will admit all of the tools looked great and really fun to use. I'd love to get that Ingersoll Rand air grinder and chuck some of the abrasive wheels listed above into it and really grind the bejeezus out of a tire. Fun fun fun. But I'm worried now Amazon might think car tire repair is my main concern and forget to send me emails for all the other cool stuff they sell. Like bicycles and computer and stereo and food too. OHHHHH the terrible problems modern man faces. Missing out on more applicable Amazon emails.
>
> There you have it from the mouth of the world's expert you can't repair a tire without a toolbox full of mostly automated tools.
>

On Friday, January 7, 2022 at 1:01:37 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> On 1/7/2022 2:12 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Friday, January 7, 2022 at 11:50:55 AM UTC-8, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >> On Thursday, December 30, 2021 at 5:00:47 PM UTC-6, AMuzi wrote:
> >>> On 12/30/2021 3:45 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> >>>> On Thursday, December 30, 2021 at 10:14:38 PM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>> On 12/30/2021 2:40 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> >>>>>> On Thursday, December 30, 2021 at 9:21:39 PM UTC+1, frkr...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Thursday, December 30, 2021 at 11:30:23 AM UTC-8, Ted Heise wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On Wed, 29 Dec 2021 08:30:11 -0800 (PST),
> >>>>>>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, December 29, 2021 at 5:25:52 AM UTC-8, Ted Heise wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 29 Dec 2021 09:02:24 +0700,
> >>>>>>>>>> John B <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 28 Dec 2021 19:16:12 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 12/28/2021 7:01 PM, Luns Tee wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, December 28, 2021 at 6:52:02 AM UTC-8, Ted Heise wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'll rumage around in the garage and see what other
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> solvents I have available. Probably residues from the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> fragrances they tend to put in fingernail polish remover
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> would run counter to effective cleaning.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Somewhat related to the application of patches to inner
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> tubes is the attachment of soles to shoes. I'd asked the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> local shoe repair place what they do to clean surfaces
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> prior to gluing, and they were cagey with their answer
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> until after I'd paid for the barge cement. While I was
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> expecting a chemical answer, the final answer was:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> sandpaper. This made complete sense in retrospect, and
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> agrees exactly with Jobst Brandt's writings on the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> subject. Rather than clean the surface of whatever
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> substances may interfere with gluing, they both advocate
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> that you remove the surface altogether, exposing bare
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> material.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Chemical cleaning may work if the only contaminant of
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> interest is known to be soluable, in which case the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> cleaner substituting for the sanding (buffing) makes it a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> chemical buffer. However, if the surface is of talc-based
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> mold release that's captured in the surface of the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> rubber, I don't know that any solvent would help with a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> good bond.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I haven't had an adhesive failure which I felt could have
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> been avoided by the use of chemicals, but I haven't had
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> sufficient samples of both to know for sure. I'm more
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> than happy to manually sand surfaces I'm gluing - be they
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> tubes or shoes - rather than unnecessarily expose myself
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> to solvent vapours.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On a related note, while I haven't tried it yet, I
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> suspect that barge glue would work perfectly well as tube
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> patching cement. I may try it when my tube of Rema dries
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> up, but only if my tube of barge hasn't done the same in
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the meanwhile.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Nice product. I'm a fan (we even have the special $$ Barge
> >>>>>>>>>>>> thinner here) but not for inner tubes.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> A Rema or other quality rubber patching system is
> >>>>>>>>>>>> chemically superior to a regular (or even super duper)
> >>>>>>>>>>>> adhesive, making sulphur and zinc 'cold vulcanize' bonds.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/bicycling/comments/fhf03/how_do_vulcanizing_tire_patches_work/
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Somewhere I have read that bicycle tubes can be made from
> >>>>>>>>>>> natural rubber or butyl rubber in which case the
> >>>>>>>>>>> "vulcanizing" action if any will require different chemicals
> >>>>>>>>>>> depending on the type of rubber. I believe that natural
> >>>>>>>>>>> rubber uses some form of sulphur compound.
> >>>>>>>>>> Interesting thought. It caused me to reflect a bit more on my
> >>>>>>>>>> experience of the last 1-2 years, and I realized that patch
> >>>>>>>>>> failures have more often than not happened on tubes that had a
> >>>>>>>>>> number of prior patches (2-4 on average) all of which were by
> >>>>>>>>>> definition obviously successful. So this additional fact makes
> >>>>>>>>>> me think the current problems are unlikely due to differences
> >>>>>>>>>> in tire material or mold release agents, and puts the "glue"
> >>>>>>>>>> and/or patch materials back at top of the suspect list.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> I've got some Rema patch kits coming, and intend to use them
> >>>>>>>>>> for a time--holding the other kits back until I see if I've
> >>>>>>>>>> better luck with the Remas. At some point, if the failures
> >>>>>>>>>> keep happening, I'll probably just give up on patching
> >>>>>>>>>> entirely.
> >>>>>>>>> Back when we patched car tire innertubes after gluing and
> >>>>>>>>> placing the patch we would clamp it in a device that looked like
> >>>>>>>>> a C-clamp for 15 minutes or so.
> >>>>>>>> Good thought, and somewhat similar I think to a point Frank made..
> >>>>>>>> I may try clamping. Does anyone think this might take the place
> >>>>>>>> of the stitcher that Andrew suggested?
> >>>>>>> I'm sure clamping would work as well or better than stitching, or than my two dowel method.
> >>>>>>> But I doubt its worth the extra trouble. I've had only very few patches fail. The only exceptions might
> >>>>>>> be those applied in bad conditions, roadside.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> A recent one was odd, BTW. Came out of the grocery store and loaded up, and maybe two miles later
> >>>>>>> noticed a seriously low rear tire. Pumped it up, rode home, and it didn't leak. I thought
> >>>>>>> maybe someone had pranked me. A couple weeks later on a different utility ride I noticed it low
> >>>>>>> again. Refilled, rode home and removed the tube. I could see a suspicious edge on a patch. I don't
> >>>>>>> know how it would leak only sometimes, though.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I guess the question is, how often do people have patches fail? That would indicate how much
> >>>>>>> more careful we need to be.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> - Frank Krygowski
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I just press the patch with my thumb a couple of times.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Lou
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> Tech & Rema brand patches have a clear plastic cover sheet.
> >>>>> A stitcher krinkles it, shows that you've pressed the entire
> >>>>> surface.
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Andrew Muzi
> >>>>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> >>>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> >>>>
> >>>> I don’t know what a stitcher is, but the patches I use are thumbsize so it is hard to mis a spot. I just leave the clear cover on. It doesn’t bother me. I think what is important to let the patch ‘cure’ for a while before use the tube again. I use your solvant technique to clean the tube. Works great. Never understood the sandpaper thing. You can easily mis a spot.
> >>>>
> >>>> Lou
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> I'm not saying you need one but this is a patch stitcher:
> >>>
> >>> https://products.techtirerepairs.com/product/1-8in-stitcher-plastic-handle/
> >>> --
> >>> Andrew Muzi
> >>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> >>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> >>
> >> Andy, I'm mad at you now!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> >> I clicked on your link, links, for tire stichers and clicked on other cool looking tire repairing stuff, and now Amazon thinks that is my thing. And sent an email to me advertising all sorts of wild car tire repairing tools. Such as:
> >>
> >> Steelman Heavy Duty Low Speed Tire Buffer, 3/8-Inch Quick-Change...
> >>
> >> Low Speed Air Tire Buffer Tire Repair Tool Polishing Tool Kit,
> >>
> >> Together-life Small Pneumatic Tire Buffing Wheel Repair Grinding
> >>
> >> Steelman Tungsten Carbide Buffing Wheel with Adapter, ⅜ Inch Arbor,
> >>
> >> Steelman Tire and Tube Patch Auto Repair Stitcher Tool, Prevents.. (this is your stitcher Andy)
> >>
> >> Walfront 2500rpm Low Speed Pneumatic Tire Buffing Wheel Repair...
> >>
> >> Acouto 38mm 70 Grid Tire Buffer Wheel Abrasiveness Coarse Buffing..
> >>
> >> Ingersoll Rand 327LS Heavy Duty 3/8-Inch Chuck Low Speed Tire Buffer
> >>
> >> 38mm Tire Buffer Wheel Abrasiveness Coarse Buffing Wheel with.
> >>
> >> Ken-Tool 34645 Mt and Demount Iron, 37In, 3/4 in STK , black (one heck of a tire iron, crow bar!!!!!)
> >>
> >> Western Weld Clear All Purpose Tire Repair Vulcanizing Cement Brush... (for all those talking about tire cement, this looks like the cure)
> >>
> >> OEMTOOLS 24447 16 Piece Locking Lug Master Key Set, Wheel Lock Key,.
> >>
> >> AGS Ru-Glyde Tire Mounting Paste for Alloy Wheels, Low Profile, and...
> >>
> >> It was a long Amazon advertisement. Now I will admit all of the tools looked great and really fun to use. I'd love to get that Ingersoll Rand air grinder and chuck some of the abrasive wheels listed above into it and really grind the bejeezus out of a tire. Fun fun fun. But I'm worried now Amazon might think car tire repair is my main concern and forget to send me emails for all the other cool stuff they sell. Like bicycles and computer and stereo and food too. OHHHHH the terrible problems modern man faces. Missing out on more applicable Amazon emails.
> >
> > There you have it from the mouth of the world's expert you can't repair a tire without a toolbox full of mostly automated tools.
> >
> Tech Products mostly supply the motor vehicle repair
> industry. I was a happy customer for years but the entire
> bicycle tube repair industry isn't a blip in Tech's revenues.

On 1/7/2022 3:14 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Friday, January 7, 2022 at 1:01:37 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 1/7/2022 2:12 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> On Friday, January 7, 2022 at 11:50:55 AM UTC-8, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>> On Thursday, December 30, 2021 at 5:00:47 PM UTC-6, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>> On 12/30/2021 3:45 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>>> On Thursday, December 30, 2021 at 10:14:38 PM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>> On 12/30/2021 2:40 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Thursday, December 30, 2021 at 9:21:39 PM UTC+1, frkr...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, December 30, 2021 at 11:30:23 AM UTC-8, Ted Heise wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 29 Dec 2021 08:30:11 -0800 (PST),
>>>>>>>>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, December 29, 2021 at 5:25:52 AM UTC-8, Ted Heise wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 29 Dec 2021 09:02:24 +0700,
>>>>>>>>>>>> John B <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 28 Dec 2021 19:16:12 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 12/28/2021 7:01 PM, Luns Tee wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, December 28, 2021 at 6:52:02 AM UTC-8, Ted Heise wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'll rumage around in the garage and see what other
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> solvents I have available. Probably residues from the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fragrances they tend to put in fingernail polish remover
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would run counter to effective cleaning.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Somewhat related to the application of patches to inner
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tubes is the attachment of soles to shoes. I'd asked the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> local shoe repair place what they do to clean surfaces
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prior to gluing, and they were cagey with their answer
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> until after I'd paid for the barge cement. While I was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> expecting a chemical answer, the final answer was:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sandpaper. This made complete sense in retrospect, and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> agrees exactly with Jobst Brandt's writings on the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> subject. Rather than clean the surface of whatever
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> substances may interfere with gluing, they both advocate
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that you remove the surface altogether, exposing bare
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> material.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chemical cleaning may work if the only contaminant of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interest is known to be soluable, in which case the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cleaner substituting for the sanding (buffing) makes it a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> chemical buffer. However, if the surface is of talc-based
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mold release that's captured in the surface of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rubber, I don't know that any solvent would help with a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> good bond.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I haven't had an adhesive failure which I felt could have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> been avoided by the use of chemicals, but I haven't had
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sufficient samples of both to know for sure. I'm more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than happy to manually sand surfaces I'm gluing - be they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tubes or shoes - rather than unnecessarily expose myself
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to solvent vapours.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On a related note, while I haven't tried it yet, I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> suspect that barge glue would work perfectly well as tube
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> patching cement. I may try it when my tube of Rema dries
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> up, but only if my tube of barge hasn't done the same in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the meanwhile.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nice product. I'm a fan (we even have the special $$ Barge
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thinner here) but not for inner tubes.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A Rema or other quality rubber patching system is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> chemically superior to a regular (or even super duper)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> adhesive, making sulphur and zinc 'cold vulcanize' bonds.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/bicycling/comments/fhf03/how_do_vulcanizing_tire_patches_work/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Somewhere I have read that bicycle tubes can be made from
>>>>>>>>>>>>> natural rubber or butyl rubber in which case the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "vulcanizing" action if any will require different chemicals
>>>>>>>>>>>>> depending on the type of rubber. I believe that natural
>>>>>>>>>>>>> rubber uses some form of sulphur compound.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Interesting thought. It caused me to reflect a bit more on my
>>>>>>>>>>>> experience of the last 1-2 years, and I realized that patch
>>>>>>>>>>>> failures have more often than not happened on tubes that had a
>>>>>>>>>>>> number of prior patches (2-4 on average) all of which were by
>>>>>>>>>>>> definition obviously successful. So this additional fact makes
>>>>>>>>>>>> me think the current problems are unlikely due to differences
>>>>>>>>>>>> in tire material or mold release agents, and puts the "glue"
>>>>>>>>>>>> and/or patch materials back at top of the suspect list.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I've got some Rema patch kits coming, and intend to use them
>>>>>>>>>>>> for a time--holding the other kits back until I see if I've
>>>>>>>>>>>> better luck with the Remas. At some point, if the failures
>>>>>>>>>>>> keep happening, I'll probably just give up on patching
>>>>>>>>>>>> entirely.
>>>>>>>>>>> Back when we patched car tire innertubes after gluing and
>>>>>>>>>>> placing the patch we would clamp it in a device that looked like
>>>>>>>>>>> a C-clamp for 15 minutes or so.
>>>>>>>>>> Good thought, and somewhat similar I think to a point Frank made.
>>>>>>>>>> I may try clamping. Does anyone think this might take the place
>>>>>>>>>> of the stitcher that Andrew suggested?
>>>>>>>>> I'm sure clamping would work as well or better than stitching, or than my two dowel method.
>>>>>>>>> But I doubt its worth the extra trouble. I've had only very few patches fail. The only exceptions might
>>>>>>>>> be those applied in bad conditions, roadside.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> A recent one was odd, BTW. Came out of the grocery store and loaded up, and maybe two miles later
>>>>>>>>> noticed a seriously low rear tire. Pumped it up, rode home, and it didn't leak. I thought
>>>>>>>>> maybe someone had pranked me. A couple weeks later on a different utility ride I noticed it low
>>>>>>>>> again. Refilled, rode home and removed the tube. I could see a suspicious edge on a patch. I don't
>>>>>>>>> know how it would leak only sometimes, though.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I guess the question is, how often do people have patches fail? That would indicate how much
>>>>>>>>> more careful we need to be.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I just press the patch with my thumb a couple of times.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Lou
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tech & Rema brand patches have a clear plastic cover sheet.
>>>>>>> A stitcher krinkles it, shows that you've pressed the entire
>>>>>>> surface.
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Andrew Muzi
>>>>>>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>>>>>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don’t know what a stitcher is, but the patches I use are thumbsize so it is hard to mis a spot. I just leave the clear cover on. It doesn’t bother me. I think what is important to let the patch ‘cure’ for a while before use the tube again. I use your solvant technique to clean the tube. Works great. Never understood the sandpaper thing. You can easily mis a spot.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lou
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not saying you need one but this is a patch stitcher:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://products.techtirerepairs.com/product/1-8in-stitcher-plastic-handle/
>>>>> --
>>>>> Andrew Muzi
>>>>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>>>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>>>>
>>>> Andy, I'm mad at you now!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>>>> I clicked on your link, links, for tire stichers and clicked on other cool looking tire repairing stuff, and now Amazon thinks that is my thing. And sent an email to me advertising all sorts of wild car tire repairing tools. Such as:
>>>>
>>>> Steelman Heavy Duty Low Speed Tire Buffer, 3/8-Inch Quick-Change...
>>>>
>>>> Low Speed Air Tire Buffer Tire Repair Tool Polishing Tool Kit,
>>>>
>>>> Together-life Small Pneumatic Tire Buffing Wheel Repair Grinding
>>>>
>>>> Steelman Tungsten Carbide Buffing Wheel with Adapter, ⅜ Inch Arbor,
>>>>
>>>> Steelman Tire and Tube Patch Auto Repair Stitcher Tool, Prevents.. (this is your stitcher Andy)
>>>>
>>>> Walfront 2500rpm Low Speed Pneumatic Tire Buffing Wheel Repair...
>>>>
>>>> Acouto 38mm 70 Grid Tire Buffer Wheel Abrasiveness Coarse Buffing..
>>>>
>>>> Ingersoll Rand 327LS Heavy Duty 3/8-Inch Chuck Low Speed Tire Buffer
>>>>
>>>> 38mm Tire Buffer Wheel Abrasiveness Coarse Buffing Wheel with.
>>>>
>>>> Ken-Tool 34645 Mt and Demount Iron, 37In, 3/4 in STK , black (one heck of a tire iron, crow bar!!!!!)
>>>>
>>>> Western Weld Clear All Purpose Tire Repair Vulcanizing Cement Brush... (for all those talking about tire cement, this looks like the cure)
>>>>
>>>> OEMTOOLS 24447 16 Piece Locking Lug Master Key Set, Wheel Lock Key,.
>>>>
>>>> AGS Ru-Glyde Tire Mounting Paste for Alloy Wheels, Low Profile, and...
>>>>
>>>> It was a long Amazon advertisement. Now I will admit all of the tools looked great and really fun to use. I'd love to get that Ingersoll Rand air grinder and chuck some of the abrasive wheels listed above into it and really grind the bejeezus out of a tire. Fun fun fun. But I'm worried now Amazon might think car tire repair is my main concern and forget to send me emails for all the other cool stuff they sell. Like bicycles and computer and stereo and food too. OHHHHH the terrible problems modern man faces. Missing out on more applicable Amazon emails.
>>>
>>> There you have it from the mouth of the world's expert you can't repair a tire without a toolbox full of mostly automated tools.
>>>
>> Tech Products mostly supply the motor vehicle repair
>> industry. I was a happy customer for years but the entire
>> bicycle tube repair industry isn't a blip in Tech's revenues.
>
> I really never worked on truck tires but I assume with a list like that, that trucks must still be using tube tires.
>

On Friday, January 7, 2022 at 1:57:07 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> On 1/7/2022 3:14 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Friday, January 7, 2022 at 1:01:37 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 1/7/2022 2:12 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>> On Friday, January 7, 2022 at 11:50:55 AM UTC-8, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>>> On Thursday, December 30, 2021 at 5:00:47 PM UTC-6, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>> On 12/30/2021 3:45 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> >>>>>> On Thursday, December 30, 2021 at 10:14:38 PM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>>>> On 12/30/2021 2:40 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On Thursday, December 30, 2021 at 9:21:39 PM UTC+1, frkr...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On Thursday, December 30, 2021 at 11:30:23 AM UTC-8, Ted Heise wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 29 Dec 2021 08:30:11 -0800 (PST),
> >>>>>>>>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, December 29, 2021 at 5:25:52 AM UTC-8, Ted Heise wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 29 Dec 2021 09:02:24 +0700,
> >>>>>>>>>>>> John B <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 28 Dec 2021 19:16:12 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 12/28/2021 7:01 PM, Luns Tee wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, December 28, 2021 at 6:52:02 AM UTC-8, Ted Heise wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'll rumage around in the garage and see what other
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> solvents I have available. Probably residues from the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fragrances they tend to put in fingernail polish remover
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would run counter to effective cleaning.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Somewhat related to the application of patches to inner
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tubes is the attachment of soles to shoes. I'd asked the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> local shoe repair place what they do to clean surfaces
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prior to gluing, and they were cagey with their answer
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> until after I'd paid for the barge cement. While I was
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> expecting a chemical answer, the final answer was:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sandpaper. This made complete sense in retrospect, and
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> agrees exactly with Jobst Brandt's writings on the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> subject. Rather than clean the surface of whatever
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> substances may interfere with gluing, they both advocate
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that you remove the surface altogether, exposing bare
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> material.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chemical cleaning may work if the only contaminant of
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interest is known to be soluable, in which case the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cleaner substituting for the sanding (buffing) makes it a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> chemical buffer. However, if the surface is of talc-based
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mold release that's captured in the surface of the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rubber, I don't know that any solvent would help with a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> good bond.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I haven't had an adhesive failure which I felt could have
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> been avoided by the use of chemicals, but I haven't had
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sufficient samples of both to know for sure. I'm more
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than happy to manually sand surfaces I'm gluing - be they
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tubes or shoes - rather than unnecessarily expose myself
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to solvent vapours.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On a related note, while I haven't tried it yet, I
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> suspect that barge glue would work perfectly well as tube
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> patching cement. I may try it when my tube of Rema dries
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> up, but only if my tube of barge hasn't done the same in
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the meanwhile.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nice product. I'm a fan (we even have the special $$ Barge
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> thinner here) but not for inner tubes.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> A Rema or other quality rubber patching system is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> chemically superior to a regular (or even super duper)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> adhesive, making sulphur and zinc 'cold vulcanize' bonds.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/bicycling/comments/fhf03/how_do_vulcanizing_tire_patches_work/
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Somewhere I have read that bicycle tubes can be made from
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> natural rubber or butyl rubber in which case the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> "vulcanizing" action if any will require different chemicals
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> depending on the type of rubber. I believe that natural
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> rubber uses some form of sulphur compound.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Interesting thought. It caused me to reflect a bit more on my
> >>>>>>>>>>>> experience of the last 1-2 years, and I realized that patch
> >>>>>>>>>>>> failures have more often than not happened on tubes that had a
> >>>>>>>>>>>> number of prior patches (2-4 on average) all of which were by
> >>>>>>>>>>>> definition obviously successful. So this additional fact makes
> >>>>>>>>>>>> me think the current problems are unlikely due to differences
> >>>>>>>>>>>> in tire material or mold release agents, and puts the "glue"
> >>>>>>>>>>>> and/or patch materials back at top of the suspect list.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I've got some Rema patch kits coming, and intend to use them
> >>>>>>>>>>>> for a time--holding the other kits back until I see if I've
> >>>>>>>>>>>> better luck with the Remas. At some point, if the failures
> >>>>>>>>>>>> keep happening, I'll probably just give up on patching
> >>>>>>>>>>>> entirely.
> >>>>>>>>>>> Back when we patched car tire innertubes after gluing and
> >>>>>>>>>>> placing the patch we would clamp it in a device that looked like
> >>>>>>>>>>> a C-clamp for 15 minutes or so.
> >>>>>>>>>> Good thought, and somewhat similar I think to a point Frank made.
> >>>>>>>>>> I may try clamping. Does anyone think this might take the place
> >>>>>>>>>> of the stitcher that Andrew suggested?
> >>>>>>>>> I'm sure clamping would work as well or better than stitching, or than my two dowel method.
> >>>>>>>>> But I doubt its worth the extra trouble. I've had only very few patches fail. The only exceptions might
> >>>>>>>>> be those applied in bad conditions, roadside.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> A recent one was odd, BTW. Came out of the grocery store and loaded up, and maybe two miles later
> >>>>>>>>> noticed a seriously low rear tire. Pumped it up, rode home, and it didn't leak. I thought
> >>>>>>>>> maybe someone had pranked me. A couple weeks later on a different utility ride I noticed it low
> >>>>>>>>> again. Refilled, rode home and removed the tube. I could see a suspicious edge on a patch. I don't
> >>>>>>>>> know how it would leak only sometimes, though.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I guess the question is, how often do people have patches fail? That would indicate how much
> >>>>>>>>> more careful we need to be.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> - Frank Krygowski
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I just press the patch with my thumb a couple of times.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Lou
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Tech & Rema brand patches have a clear plastic cover sheet.
> >>>>>>> A stitcher krinkles it, shows that you've pressed the entire
> >>>>>>> surface.
> >>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>> Andrew Muzi
> >>>>>>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> >>>>>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I don’t know what a stitcher is, but the patches I use are thumbsize so it is hard to mis a spot. I just leave the clear cover on. It doesn’t bother me. I think what is important to let the patch ‘cure’ for a while before use the tube again. I use your solvant technique to clean the tube. Works great. Never understood the sandpaper thing. You can easily mis a spot.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Lou
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I'm not saying you need one but this is a patch stitcher:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> https://products.techtirerepairs.com/product/1-8in-stitcher-plastic-handle/
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Andrew Muzi
> >>>>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> >>>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> >>>>
> >>>> Andy, I'm mad at you now!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> >>>> I clicked on your link, links, for tire stichers and clicked on other cool looking tire repairing stuff, and now Amazon thinks that is my thing.. And sent an email to me advertising all sorts of wild car tire repairing tools. Such as:
> >>>>
> >>>> Steelman Heavy Duty Low Speed Tire Buffer, 3/8-Inch Quick-Change...
> >>>>
> >>>> Low Speed Air Tire Buffer Tire Repair Tool Polishing Tool Kit,
> >>>>
> >>>> Together-life Small Pneumatic Tire Buffing Wheel Repair Grinding
> >>>>
> >>>> Steelman Tungsten Carbide Buffing Wheel with Adapter, ⅜ Inch Arbor,
> >>>>
> >>>> Steelman Tire and Tube Patch Auto Repair Stitcher Tool, Prevents.. (this is your stitcher Andy)
> >>>>
> >>>> Walfront 2500rpm Low Speed Pneumatic Tire Buffing Wheel Repair...
> >>>>
> >>>> Acouto 38mm 70 Grid Tire Buffer Wheel Abrasiveness Coarse Buffing..
> >>>>
> >>>> Ingersoll Rand 327LS Heavy Duty 3/8-Inch Chuck Low Speed Tire Buffer
> >>>>
> >>>> 38mm Tire Buffer Wheel Abrasiveness Coarse Buffing Wheel with.
> >>>>
> >>>> Ken-Tool 34645 Mt and Demount Iron, 37In, 3/4 in STK , black (one heck of a tire iron, crow bar!!!!!)
> >>>>
> >>>> Western Weld Clear All Purpose Tire Repair Vulcanizing Cement Brush.... (for all those talking about tire cement, this looks like the cure)
> >>>>
> >>>> OEMTOOLS 24447 16 Piece Locking Lug Master Key Set, Wheel Lock Key,.
> >>>>
> >>>> AGS Ru-Glyde Tire Mounting Paste for Alloy Wheels, Low Profile, and....
> >>>>
> >>>> It was a long Amazon advertisement. Now I will admit all of the tools looked great and really fun to use. I'd love to get that Ingersoll Rand air grinder and chuck some of the abrasive wheels listed above into it and really grind the bejeezus out of a tire. Fun fun fun. But I'm worried now Amazon might think car tire repair is my main concern and forget to send me emails for all the other cool stuff they sell. Like bicycles and computer and stereo and food too. OHHHHH the terrible problems modern man faces. Missing out on more applicable Amazon emails.
> >>>
> >>> There you have it from the mouth of the world's expert you can't repair a tire without a toolbox full of mostly automated tools.
> >>>
> >> Tech Products mostly supply the motor vehicle repair
> >> industry. I was a happy customer for years but the entire
> >> bicycle tube repair industry isn't a blip in Tech's revenues.
> >
> > I really never worked on truck tires but I assume with a list like that, that trucks must still be using tube tires.
> >
> Nope.
> Auto motorcycle and truck tires are tubeless and patched
> from the inside.
>
> Classic/vintage cars with wire wheels necessarily have tubes
> and, lest you think only bicycles are futzy, special radial
> compatible tubes when mounting radial tires on wire wheels.
Having automated tools for repairing tires seems to me to be a bit strange if tires are all tubeless.

On 1/7/2022 4:08 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Friday, January 7, 2022 at 1:57:07 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 1/7/2022 3:14 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> On Friday, January 7, 2022 at 1:01:37 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 1/7/2022 2:12 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>> On Friday, January 7, 2022 at 11:50:55 AM UTC-8, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Thursday, December 30, 2021 at 5:00:47 PM UTC-6, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>> On 12/30/2021 3:45 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Thursday, December 30, 2021 at 10:14:38 PM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 12/30/2021 2:40 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, December 30, 2021 at 9:21:39 PM UTC+1, frkr...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, December 30, 2021 at 11:30:23 AM UTC-8, Ted Heise wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 29 Dec 2021 08:30:11 -0800 (PST),
>>>>>>>>>>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, December 29, 2021 at 5:25:52 AM UTC-8, Ted Heise wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 29 Dec 2021 09:02:24 +0700,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John B <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 28 Dec 2021 19:16:12 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 12/28/2021 7:01 PM, Luns Tee wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, December 28, 2021 at 6:52:02 AM UTC-8, Ted Heise wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'll rumage around in the garage and see what other
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> solvents I have available. Probably residues from the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fragrances they tend to put in fingernail polish remover
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would run counter to effective cleaning.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Somewhat related to the application of patches to inner
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tubes is the attachment of soles to shoes. I'd asked the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> local shoe repair place what they do to clean surfaces
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prior to gluing, and they were cagey with their answer
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> until after I'd paid for the barge cement. While I was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> expecting a chemical answer, the final answer was:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sandpaper. This made complete sense in retrospect, and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> agrees exactly with Jobst Brandt's writings on the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> subject. Rather than clean the surface of whatever
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> substances may interfere with gluing, they both advocate
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that you remove the surface altogether, exposing bare
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> material.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chemical cleaning may work if the only contaminant of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interest is known to be soluable, in which case the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cleaner substituting for the sanding (buffing) makes it a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> chemical buffer. However, if the surface is of talc-based
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mold release that's captured in the surface of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rubber, I don't know that any solvent would help with a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> good bond.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I haven't had an adhesive failure which I felt could have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> been avoided by the use of chemicals, but I haven't had
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sufficient samples of both to know for sure. I'm more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than happy to manually sand surfaces I'm gluing - be they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tubes or shoes - rather than unnecessarily expose myself
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to solvent vapours.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On a related note, while I haven't tried it yet, I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> suspect that barge glue would work perfectly well as tube
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> patching cement. I may try it when my tube of Rema dries
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> up, but only if my tube of barge hasn't done the same in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the meanwhile.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nice product. I'm a fan (we even have the special $$ Barge
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thinner here) but not for inner tubes.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A Rema or other quality rubber patching system is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> chemically superior to a regular (or even super duper)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> adhesive, making sulphur and zinc 'cold vulcanize' bonds.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/bicycling/comments/fhf03/how_do_vulcanizing_tire_patches_work/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Somewhere I have read that bicycle tubes can be made from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> natural rubber or butyl rubber in which case the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "vulcanizing" action if any will require different chemicals
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> depending on the type of rubber. I believe that natural
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rubber uses some form of sulphur compound.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Interesting thought. It caused me to reflect a bit more on my
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> experience of the last 1-2 years, and I realized that patch
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> failures have more often than not happened on tubes that had a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> number of prior patches (2-4 on average) all of which were by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> definition obviously successful. So this additional fact makes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> me think the current problems are unlikely due to differences
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in tire material or mold release agents, and puts the "glue"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and/or patch materials back at top of the suspect list.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've got some Rema patch kits coming, and intend to use them
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for a time--holding the other kits back until I see if I've
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> better luck with the Remas. At some point, if the failures
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> keep happening, I'll probably just give up on patching
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> entirely.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Back when we patched car tire innertubes after gluing and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> placing the patch we would clamp it in a device that looked like
>>>>>>>>>>>>> a C-clamp for 15 minutes or so.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Good thought, and somewhat similar I think to a point Frank made.
>>>>>>>>>>>> I may try clamping. Does anyone think this might take the place
>>>>>>>>>>>> of the stitcher that Andrew suggested?
>>>>>>>>>>> I'm sure clamping would work as well or better than stitching, or than my two dowel method.
>>>>>>>>>>> But I doubt its worth the extra trouble. I've had only very few patches fail. The only exceptions might
>>>>>>>>>>> be those applied in bad conditions, roadside.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> A recent one was odd, BTW. Came out of the grocery store and loaded up, and maybe two miles later
>>>>>>>>>>> noticed a seriously low rear tire. Pumped it up, rode home, and it didn't leak. I thought
>>>>>>>>>>> maybe someone had pranked me. A couple weeks later on a different utility ride I noticed it low
>>>>>>>>>>> again. Refilled, rode home and removed the tube. I could see a suspicious edge on a patch. I don't
>>>>>>>>>>> know how it would leak only sometimes, though.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I guess the question is, how often do people have patches fail? That would indicate how much
>>>>>>>>>>> more careful we need to be.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I just press the patch with my thumb a couple of times.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Lou
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Tech & Rema brand patches have a clear plastic cover sheet.
>>>>>>>>> A stitcher krinkles it, shows that you've pressed the entire
>>>>>>>>> surface.
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Andrew Muzi
>>>>>>>>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>>>>>>>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don’t know what a stitcher is, but the patches I use are thumbsize so it is hard to mis a spot. I just leave the clear cover on. It doesn’t bother me. I think what is important to let the patch ‘cure’ for a while before use the tube again. I use your solvant technique to clean the tube. Works great. Never understood the sandpaper thing. You can easily mis a spot.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Lou
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm not saying you need one but this is a patch stitcher:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://products.techtirerepairs.com/product/1-8in-stitcher-plastic-handle/
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Andrew Muzi
>>>>>>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>>>>>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Andy, I'm mad at you now!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>>>>>> I clicked on your link, links, for tire stichers and clicked on other cool looking tire repairing stuff, and now Amazon thinks that is my thing. And sent an email to me advertising all sorts of wild car tire repairing tools. Such as:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Steelman Heavy Duty Low Speed Tire Buffer, 3/8-Inch Quick-Change...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Low Speed Air Tire Buffer Tire Repair Tool Polishing Tool Kit,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Together-life Small Pneumatic Tire Buffing Wheel Repair Grinding
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Steelman Tungsten Carbide Buffing Wheel with Adapter, ⅜ Inch Arbor,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Steelman Tire and Tube Patch Auto Repair Stitcher Tool, Prevents.. (this is your stitcher Andy)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Walfront 2500rpm Low Speed Pneumatic Tire Buffing Wheel Repair...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Acouto 38mm 70 Grid Tire Buffer Wheel Abrasiveness Coarse Buffing..
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ingersoll Rand 327LS Heavy Duty 3/8-Inch Chuck Low Speed Tire Buffer
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 38mm Tire Buffer Wheel Abrasiveness Coarse Buffing Wheel with.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ken-Tool 34645 Mt and Demount Iron, 37In, 3/4 in STK , black (one heck of a tire iron, crow bar!!!!!)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Western Weld Clear All Purpose Tire Repair Vulcanizing Cement Brush... (for all those talking about tire cement, this looks like the cure)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> OEMTOOLS 24447 16 Piece Locking Lug Master Key Set, Wheel Lock Key,.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> AGS Ru-Glyde Tire Mounting Paste for Alloy Wheels, Low Profile, and...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It was a long Amazon advertisement. Now I will admit all of the tools looked great and really fun to use. I'd love to get that Ingersoll Rand air grinder and chuck some of the abrasive wheels listed above into it and really grind the bejeezus out of a tire. Fun fun fun. But I'm worried now Amazon might think car tire repair is my main concern and forget to send me emails for all the other cool stuff they sell. Like bicycles and computer and stereo and food too. OHHHHH the terrible problems modern man faces. Missing out on more applicable Amazon emails.
>>>>>
>>>>> There you have it from the mouth of the world's expert you can't repair a tire without a toolbox full of mostly automated tools.
>>>>>
>>>> Tech Products mostly supply the motor vehicle repair
>>>> industry. I was a happy customer for years but the entire
>>>> bicycle tube repair industry isn't a blip in Tech's revenues.
>>>
>>> I really never worked on truck tires but I assume with a list like that, that trucks must still be using tube tires.
>>>
>> Nope.
>> Auto motorcycle and truck tires are tubeless and patched
>> from the inside.
>>
>> Classic/vintage cars with wire wheels necessarily have tubes
>> and, lest you think only bicycles are futzy, special radial
>> compatible tubes when mounting radial tires on wire wheels.
> Having automated tools for repairing tires seems to me to be a bit strange if tires are all tubeless.
>