On 1/11/2022 10:05 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, January 6, 2022 at 11:00:54 PM UTC-5, frkr...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Thursday, January 6, 2022 at 6:03:16 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
>>> On Thu, 6 Jan 2022 17:18:19 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> We've discussed this before. Super high gears are a weird fashion, useless for almost all riders.
>>>>
>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>> Didn't someone recently mention using that sort of ratio.... down
>>> hills?
>> IIRC, Jay was enthusiastic about high gears. His argument was, essentially, "Well I used it yesterday."
>> But I don't recall any indication that the use was ever productive, and I don't see how it could be.
>
> This again Frank? There are people who use the 11 either out of necessity or preference. As some one who actively still competes, I do use the 11 on a regular basis. If you find an application where an 11 works - either to maintain speed down a hill/drafting, or sprinting for training or in a race - then it's 'productive'.

Right. I've never disputed that an 11 cog (or more generally, gears
above around 110 inches) can be useful for competition. Cruising in a
high speed dense pack, or the back of a paceline, or kicking up a fast
finishing sprint, sure. But I think there are only two people here who
still race.

The usual justification for high gears seems to be "I can pedal
downhill." But you know quite a bit about aero drag. So what are your
thoughts on a recreational rider coming out of an aero tuck to spin his
legs on an 11 tooth cog? How often is that a net gain? Compare it to
putting a bigger cog at the other end of the cassette.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Tuesday, January 11, 2022 at 9:23:21 a.m. UTC-5, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 11, 2022 at 8:40:27 AM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> > On 1/11/2022 5:41 AM, Duane wrote:
> > > Joy Beeson <jbe...@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:
> > >> On Fri, 07 Jan 2022 09:03:07 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Didn't someone recently mention using that sort of ratio.... down
> > >>> hills?
> > >>>
> > >>> For my own use I realized long ago that those sort of ratios were of
> > >>> no real use to me and have rebuilt cassettes with gear ratios (gears?)
> > >>> that were more in line with what I was capable of using (:-)
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> There's a hill on CR 200 S where I stop at the top and rest five
> > >> minutes by the clock, so that I can get up enough speed on the
> > >> downhill to make it up the next hill.
> > >>
> > >> If I lived where there were a lot of such hill pairs, I could use an
> > >> overdrive gear despite being weak and slow.
> > >>
> > >
> > > +1
> > >
> > > I never understand why one person would tell another person which gears
> > > they need.
> > >
> > +1
> > or tire width, handlebar style, accessories, and so on.
> > --
> > Andrew Muzi
> > <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> > Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> +1
> The current MTB trend is to use ~ 900mm bars. I've tried wider bars on two occasions over the years, and didn't like the feel either time. I cut them down to ~600 which is marginally wider than my road bars. I still get the occasional comment 'how can you ride bars that narrow?"

I get that comment a lot too when I'm out on my single-speed MTB. That bike has a 12"/300mm handlebar. LOL It's fantastic for riding in narrow areas.

Cheers

On Tuesday, January 11, 2022 at 10:39:22 AM UTC-5, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 11, 2022 at 3:23:21 PM UTC+1, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > On Tuesday, January 11, 2022 at 8:40:27 AM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> > > On 1/11/2022 5:41 AM, Duane wrote:
> > > > Joy Beeson <jbe...@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:
> > > >> On Fri, 07 Jan 2022 09:03:07 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
> > > >> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>> Didn't someone recently mention using that sort of ratio.... down
> > > >>> hills?
> > > >>>
> > > >>> For my own use I realized long ago that those sort of ratios were of
> > > >>> no real use to me and have rebuilt cassettes with gear ratios (gears?)
> > > >>> that were more in line with what I was capable of using (:-)
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> There's a hill on CR 200 S where I stop at the top and rest five
> > > >> minutes by the clock, so that I can get up enough speed on the
> > > >> downhill to make it up the next hill.
> > > >>
> > > >> If I lived where there were a lot of such hill pairs, I could use an
> > > >> overdrive gear despite being weak and slow.
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > > +1
> > > >
> > > > I never understand why one person would tell another person which gears
> > > > they need.
> > > >
> > > +1
> > > or tire width, handlebar style, accessories, and so on.
> > > --
> > > Andrew Muzi
> > > <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> > > Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> > +1
> > The current MTB trend is to use ~ 900mm bars. I've tried wider bars on two occasions over the years, and didn't like the feel either time. I cut them down to ~600 which is marginally wider than my road bars. I still get the occasional comment 'how can you ride bars that narrow?"
> As someone who doesn't get along with straight bars because of numb hands I often look at people riding those wide bars and think 'how can that be comfortable?', but it is their bike. Often they just use them because they came with the bike not knowing that you can cut them.
>
> Lou
Not only that, but I have see bars with marking gradients on the ends so they can easily be cut symmetrically.

On Tuesday, January 11, 2022 at 11:40:19 AM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 1/11/2022 10:05 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > On Thursday, January 6, 2022 at 11:00:54 PM UTC-5, frkr...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On Thursday, January 6, 2022 at 6:03:16 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
> >>> On Thu, 6 Jan 2022 17:18:19 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>> We've discussed this before. Super high gears are a weird fashion, useless for almost all riders.
> >>>>
> >>>> - Frank Krygowski
> >>> Didn't someone recently mention using that sort of ratio.... down
> >>> hills?
> >> IIRC, Jay was enthusiastic about high gears. His argument was, essentially, "Well I used it yesterday."
> >> But I don't recall any indication that the use was ever productive, and I don't see how it could be.
> >
> > This again Frank? There are people who use the 11 either out of necessity or preference. As some one who actively still competes, I do use the 11 on a regular basis. If you find an application where an 11 works - either to maintain speed down a hill/drafting, or sprinting for training or in a race - then it's 'productive'.
> Right. I've never disputed that an 11 cog (or more generally, gears
> above around 110 inches) can be useful for competition. Cruising in a
> high speed dense pack, or the back of a paceline, or kicking up a fast
> finishing sprint, sure. But I think there are only two people here who
> still race.
>
> The usual justification for high gears seems to be "I can pedal
> downhill." But you know quite a bit about aero drag. So what are your
> thoughts on a recreational rider coming out of an aero tuck to spin his
> legs on an 11 tooth cog?

That's where some experience comes in - spinning an 11 is something I really only do a few times a year. If you're coasting fast enough that you would turn an 11 beyond comfortable spin, you're probably better off keeping a tuck unless you can sustain a high speed spin _and_ there's a reason for it such as catching back on the pack after getting dropped on a climb, or trying to keep a gap from a chasing group on a downhill. For the average recreational cyclist and even most sport riders, I agree there isn't much point to having an 11 unless you're going to compete for those weekend warrior town line sprints.

> How often is that a net gain? Compare it to
> putting a bigger cog at the other end of the cassette.

Most recreational riders would certainly benefit more from a bigger low cog.. I will concede there are the certain people who want the 11 for more of a fashion accessory, but those are the types that also feel the need for a Tarmac SL-7 with Enve rims and DI2, pushing $14K for a bike that will never go more than 25 MPH. Sure it's a waste, but I won't judge them for it.

On Tuesday, January 11, 2022 at 1:05:16 PM UTC-5, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 11, 2022 at 9:23:21 a.m. UTC-5, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > On Tuesday, January 11, 2022 at 8:40:27 AM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> > > On 1/11/2022 5:41 AM, Duane wrote:
> > > > Joy Beeson <jbe...@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:
> > > >> On Fri, 07 Jan 2022 09:03:07 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
> > > >> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>> Didn't someone recently mention using that sort of ratio.... down
> > > >>> hills?
> > > >>>
> > > >>> For my own use I realized long ago that those sort of ratios were of
> > > >>> no real use to me and have rebuilt cassettes with gear ratios (gears?)
> > > >>> that were more in line with what I was capable of using (:-)
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> There's a hill on CR 200 S where I stop at the top and rest five
> > > >> minutes by the clock, so that I can get up enough speed on the
> > > >> downhill to make it up the next hill.
> > > >>
> > > >> If I lived where there were a lot of such hill pairs, I could use an
> > > >> overdrive gear despite being weak and slow.
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > > +1
> > > >
> > > > I never understand why one person would tell another person which gears
> > > > they need.
> > > >
> > > +1
> > > or tire width, handlebar style, accessories, and so on.
> > > --
> > > Andrew Muzi
> > > <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> > > Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> > +1
> > The current MTB trend is to use ~ 900mm bars. I've tried wider bars on two occasions over the years, and didn't like the feel either time. I cut them down to ~600 which is marginally wider than my road bars. I still get the occasional comment 'how can you ride bars that narrow?"
> I get that comment a lot too when I'm out on my single-speed MTB. That bike has a 12"/300mm handlebar. LOL It's fantastic for riding in narrow areas..

A lot of the old MTB trails in new england started as hiking trails, and the older bike trails were cut with narrow bars and short 90's style wheel bases with 26" wheels in mind. Makes a FS 29er with 6" of front and real travel a bit hard to manage. I see a lot more scars on the sides of trees these days from bars scraping. There is one trail in southern new hampshire that you really _can't_ ride with bars more than 600 mm without doing a lean/twist maneuver, and I remember once about ten years ago, one guy actually got his bars jammed in between the trees and we had to kick it loose. The claim is that you get more control, but I don't buy it, If anything, longer bars means having to move your hands in a wider arc, and forces _against_ the front wheel have more leverage against your control. That said....12"? are you nuts?!?!!? :)

On 1/11/2022 2:03 PM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 11, 2022 at 1:05:16 PM UTC-5, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
>> On Tuesday, January 11, 2022 at 9:23:21 a.m. UTC-5, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, January 11, 2022 at 8:40:27 AM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 1/11/2022 5:41 AM, Duane wrote:
>>>>> Joy Beeson <jbe...@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>> On Fri, 07 Jan 2022 09:03:07 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Didn't someone recently mention using that sort of ratio.... down
>>>>>>> hills?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For my own use I realized long ago that those sort of ratios were of
>>>>>>> no real use to me and have rebuilt cassettes with gear ratios (gears?)
>>>>>>> that were more in line with what I was capable of using (:-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There's a hill on CR 200 S where I stop at the top and rest five
>>>>>> minutes by the clock, so that I can get up enough speed on the
>>>>>> downhill to make it up the next hill.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If I lived where there were a lot of such hill pairs, I could use an
>>>>>> overdrive gear despite being weak and slow.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> +1
>>>>>
>>>>> I never understand why one person would tell another person which gears
>>>>> they need.
>>>>>
>>>> +1
>>>> or tire width, handlebar style, accessories, and so on.
>>>> --
>>>> Andrew Muzi
>>>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>>> +1
>>> The current MTB trend is to use ~ 900mm bars. I've tried wider bars on two occasions over the years, and didn't like the feel either time. I cut them down to ~600 which is marginally wider than my road bars. I still get the occasional comment 'how can you ride bars that narrow?"
>> I get that comment a lot too when I'm out on my single-speed MTB. That bike has a 12"/300mm handlebar. LOL It's fantastic for riding in narrow areas.
>
> A lot of the old MTB trails in new england started as hiking trails, and the older bike trails were cut with narrow bars and short 90's style wheel bases with 26" wheels in mind. Makes a FS 29er with 6" of front and real travel a bit hard to manage. I see a lot more scars on the sides of trees these days from bars scraping. There is one trail in southern new hampshire that you really _can't_ ride with bars more than 600 mm without doing a lean/twist maneuver, and I remember once about ten years ago, one guy actually got his bars jammed in between the trees and we had to kick it loose. The claim is that you get more control, but I don't buy it, If anything, longer bars means having to move your hands in a wider arc, and forces _against_ the front wheel have more leverage against your control. That said....12"? are you nuts?!?!!? :)

I got my first mountain bike way back in the late '80s, I think, mostly
to ride in the forest preserve that starts half a mile from my home.
That was long enough ago that the bike came with chrome steel "bull
moose" bars.

Although I'd never heard of anyone doing such a thing, within about a
week I'd cut the handlebars down by six or eight inches. It was just too
difficult to ride the narrow trails with the original bar width. FWIW, I
never perceived any downside to the narrower bars.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 1/11/2022 1:53 PM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 11, 2022 at 11:40:19 AM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 1/11/2022 10:05 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>> On Thursday, January 6, 2022 at 11:00:54 PM UTC-5, frkr...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> On Thursday, January 6, 2022 at 6:03:16 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 6 Jan 2022 17:18:19 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>> We've discussed this before. Super high gears are a weird fashion, useless for almost all riders.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>>> Didn't someone recently mention using that sort of ratio.... down
>>>>> hills?
>>>> IIRC, Jay was enthusiastic about high gears. His argument was, essentially, "Well I used it yesterday."
>>>> But I don't recall any indication that the use was ever productive, and I don't see how it could be.
>>>
>>> This again Frank? There are people who use the 11 either out of necessity or preference. As some one who actively still competes, I do use the 11 on a regular basis. If you find an application where an 11 works - either to maintain speed down a hill/drafting, or sprinting for training or in a race - then it's 'productive'.
>> Right. I've never disputed that an 11 cog (or more generally, gears
>> above around 110 inches) can be useful for competition. Cruising in a
>> high speed dense pack, or the back of a paceline, or kicking up a fast
>> finishing sprint, sure. But I think there are only two people here who
>> still race.
>>
>> The usual justification for high gears seems to be "I can pedal
>> downhill." But you know quite a bit about aero drag. So what are your
>> thoughts on a recreational rider coming out of an aero tuck to spin his
>> legs on an 11 tooth cog?
>
> That's where some experience comes in - spinning an 11 is something I really only do a few times a year. If you're coasting fast enough that you would turn an 11 beyond comfortable spin, you're probably better off keeping a tuck unless you can sustain a high speed spin _and_ there's a reason for it such as catching back on the pack after getting dropped on a climb, or trying to keep a gap from a chasing group on a downhill. For the average recreational cyclist and even most sport riders, I agree there isn't much point to having an 11 unless you're going to compete for those weekend warrior town line sprints.
>
>> How often is that a net gain? Compare it to
>> putting a bigger cog at the other end of the cassette.
>
> Most recreational riders would certainly benefit more from a bigger low cog. I will concede there are the certain people who want the 11 for more of a fashion accessory, but those are the types that also feel the need for a Tarmac SL-7 with Enve rims and DI2, pushing $14K for a bike that will never go more than 25 MPH. Sure it's a waste, but I won't judge them for it.
>

Sounds like we're in violent agreement yet again!

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Tuesday, January 11, 2022 at 10:53:13 AM UTC-8, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 11, 2022 at 11:40:19 AM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 1/11/2022 10:05 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > On Thursday, January 6, 2022 at 11:00:54 PM UTC-5, frkr...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >> On Thursday, January 6, 2022 at 6:03:16 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
> > >>> On Thu, 6 Jan 2022 17:18:19 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > >>>> We've discussed this before. Super high gears are a weird fashion, useless for almost all riders.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> - Frank Krygowski
> > >>> Didn't someone recently mention using that sort of ratio.... down
> > >>> hills?
> > >> IIRC, Jay was enthusiastic about high gears. His argument was, essentially, "Well I used it yesterday."
> > >> But I don't recall any indication that the use was ever productive, and I don't see how it could be.
> > >
> > > This again Frank? There are people who use the 11 either out of necessity or preference. As some one who actively still competes, I do use the 11 on a regular basis. If you find an application where an 11 works - either to maintain speed down a hill/drafting, or sprinting for training or in a race - then it's 'productive'.
> > Right. I've never disputed that an 11 cog (or more generally, gears
> > above around 110 inches) can be useful for competition. Cruising in a
> > high speed dense pack, or the back of a paceline, or kicking up a fast
> > finishing sprint, sure. But I think there are only two people here who
> > still race.
> >
> > The usual justification for high gears seems to be "I can pedal
> > downhill." But you know quite a bit about aero drag. So what are your
> > thoughts on a recreational rider coming out of an aero tuck to spin his
> > legs on an 11 tooth cog?
> That's where some experience comes in - spinning an 11 is something I really only do a few times a year. If you're coasting fast enough that you would turn an 11 beyond comfortable spin, you're probably better off keeping a tuck unless you can sustain a high speed spin _and_ there's a reason for it such as catching back on the pack after getting dropped on a climb, or trying to keep a gap from a chasing group on a downhill. For the average recreational cyclist and even most sport riders, I agree there isn't much point to having an 11 unless you're going to compete for those weekend warrior town line sprints.
> > How often is that a net gain? Compare it to
> > putting a bigger cog at the other end of the cassette.
> Most recreational riders would certainly benefit more from a bigger low cog. I will concede there are the certain people who want the 11 for more of a fashion accessory, but those are the types that also feel the need for a Tarmac SL-7 with Enve rims and DI2, pushing $14K for a bike that will never go more than 25 MPH. Sure it's a waste, but I won't judge them for it.
Riding from Carnegie Park back to Tracy with a group of Filipinos in the 150-11 I was riding at 42 mph. There was a good tailwind but that's a bit faster than 25 mph.

On Tuesday, January 11, 2022 at 2:38:27 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 1/11/2022 1:53 PM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > On Tuesday, January 11, 2022 at 11:40:19 AM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >> On 1/11/2022 10:05 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >>> On Thursday, January 6, 2022 at 11:00:54 PM UTC-5, frkr...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>> On Thursday, January 6, 2022 at 6:03:16 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
> >>>>> On Thu, 6 Jan 2022 17:18:19 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>>>> We've discussed this before. Super high gears are a weird fashion, useless for almost all riders.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> - Frank Krygowski
> >>>>> Didn't someone recently mention using that sort of ratio.... down
> >>>>> hills?
> >>>> IIRC, Jay was enthusiastic about high gears. His argument was, essentially, "Well I used it yesterday."
> >>>> But I don't recall any indication that the use was ever productive, and I don't see how it could be.
> >>>
> >>> This again Frank? There are people who use the 11 either out of necessity or preference. As some one who actively still competes, I do use the 11 on a regular basis. If you find an application where an 11 works - either to maintain speed down a hill/drafting, or sprinting for training or in a race - then it's 'productive'.
> >> Right. I've never disputed that an 11 cog (or more generally, gears
> >> above around 110 inches) can be useful for competition. Cruising in a
> >> high speed dense pack, or the back of a paceline, or kicking up a fast
> >> finishing sprint, sure. But I think there are only two people here who
> >> still race.
> >>
> >> The usual justification for high gears seems to be "I can pedal
> >> downhill." But you know quite a bit about aero drag. So what are your
> >> thoughts on a recreational rider coming out of an aero tuck to spin his
> >> legs on an 11 tooth cog?
> >
> > That's where some experience comes in - spinning an 11 is something I really only do a few times a year. If you're coasting fast enough that you would turn an 11 beyond comfortable spin, you're probably better off keeping a tuck unless you can sustain a high speed spin _and_ there's a reason for it such as catching back on the pack after getting dropped on a climb, or trying to keep a gap from a chasing group on a downhill. For the average recreational cyclist and even most sport riders, I agree there isn't much point to having an 11 unless you're going to compete for those weekend warrior town line sprints.
> >
> >> How often is that a net gain? Compare it to
> >> putting a bigger cog at the other end of the cassette.
> >
> > Most recreational riders would certainly benefit more from a bigger low cog. I will concede there are the certain people who want the 11 for more of a fashion accessory, but those are the types that also feel the need for a Tarmac SL-7 with Enve rims and DI2, pushing $14K for a bike that will never go more than 25 MPH. Sure it's a waste, but I won't judge them for it.
> >
> Sounds like we're in violent agreement yet again!
:)

On Tuesday, January 11, 2022 at 11:37:43 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 1/11/2022 2:03 PM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > On Tuesday, January 11, 2022 at 1:05:16 PM UTC-5, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> >> On Tuesday, January 11, 2022 at 9:23:21 a.m. UTC-5, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >>> On Tuesday, January 11, 2022 at 8:40:27 AM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>> On 1/11/2022 5:41 AM, Duane wrote:
> >>>>> Joy Beeson <jbe...@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:
> >>>>>> On Fri, 07 Jan 2022 09:03:07 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
> >>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Didn't someone recently mention using that sort of ratio.... down
> >>>>>>> hills?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> For my own use I realized long ago that those sort of ratios were of
> >>>>>>> no real use to me and have rebuilt cassettes with gear ratios (gears?)
> >>>>>>> that were more in line with what I was capable of using (:-)
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> There's a hill on CR 200 S where I stop at the top and rest five
> >>>>>> minutes by the clock, so that I can get up enough speed on the
> >>>>>> downhill to make it up the next hill.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> If I lived where there were a lot of such hill pairs, I could use an
> >>>>>> overdrive gear despite being weak and slow.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> +1
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I never understand why one person would tell another person which gears
> >>>>> they need.
> >>>>>
> >>>> +1
> >>>> or tire width, handlebar style, accessories, and so on.
> >>>> --
> >>>> Andrew Muzi
> >>>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> >>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> >>> +1
> >>> The current MTB trend is to use ~ 900mm bars. I've tried wider bars on two occasions over the years, and didn't like the feel either time. I cut them down to ~600 which is marginally wider than my road bars. I still get the occasional comment 'how can you ride bars that narrow?"
> >> I get that comment a lot too when I'm out on my single-speed MTB. That bike has a 12"/300mm handlebar. LOL It's fantastic for riding in narrow areas.
> >
> > A lot of the old MTB trails in new england started as hiking trails, and the older bike trails were cut with narrow bars and short 90's style wheel bases with 26" wheels in mind. Makes a FS 29er with 6" of front and real travel a bit hard to manage. I see a lot more scars on the sides of trees these days from bars scraping. There is one trail in southern new hampshire that you really _can't_ ride with bars more than 600 mm without doing a lean/twist maneuver, and I remember once about ten years ago, one guy actually got his bars jammed in between the trees and we had to kick it loose. The claim is that you get more control, but I don't buy it, If anything, longer bars means having to move your hands in a wider arc, and forces _against_ the front wheel have more leverage against your control. That said....12"? are you nuts?!?!!? :)
> I got my first mountain bike way back in the late '80s, I think, mostly
> to ride in the forest preserve that starts half a mile from my home.
> That was long enough ago that the bike came with chrome steel "bull
> moose" bars.
>
> Although I'd never heard of anyone doing such a thing, within about a
> week I'd cut the handlebars down by six or eight inches. It was just too
> difficult to ride the narrow trails with the original bar width. FWIW, I
> never perceived any downside to the narrower bars.

You and flunkmeister deserve each other. 600 mm is 24" and I have never seen a hiking trail that was only 24" wide even on cliffsides. MTB cranks have a clearance on each side of about 7-8" ALL of the trails on the Peninsula starting or ending on Highway 1 were hiking trails and no one would ever have thought to call them 24" wide even when they were overgrown with bush growth in the mid spring.

On Tuesday, January 11, 2022 at 2:56:42 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 11, 2022 at 11:37:43 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 1/11/2022 2:03 PM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, January 11, 2022 at 1:05:16 PM UTC-5, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> > >> On Tuesday, January 11, 2022 at 9:23:21 a.m. UTC-5, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > >>> On Tuesday, January 11, 2022 at 8:40:27 AM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> > >>>> On 1/11/2022 5:41 AM, Duane wrote:
> > >>>>> Joy Beeson <jbe...@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:
> > >>>>>> On Fri, 07 Jan 2022 09:03:07 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
> > >>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Didn't someone recently mention using that sort of ratio.... down
> > >>>>>>> hills?
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> For my own use I realized long ago that those sort of ratios were of
> > >>>>>>> no real use to me and have rebuilt cassettes with gear ratios (gears?)
> > >>>>>>> that were more in line with what I was capable of using (:-)
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> There's a hill on CR 200 S where I stop at the top and rest five
> > >>>>>> minutes by the clock, so that I can get up enough speed on the
> > >>>>>> downhill to make it up the next hill.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> If I lived where there were a lot of such hill pairs, I could use an
> > >>>>>> overdrive gear despite being weak and slow.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> +1
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> I never understand why one person would tell another person which gears
> > >>>>> they need.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>> +1
> > >>>> or tire width, handlebar style, accessories, and so on.
> > >>>> --
> > >>>> Andrew Muzi
> > >>>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> > >>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> > >>> +1
> > >>> The current MTB trend is to use ~ 900mm bars. I've tried wider bars on two occasions over the years, and didn't like the feel either time. I cut them down to ~600 which is marginally wider than my road bars. I still get the occasional comment 'how can you ride bars that narrow?"
> > >> I get that comment a lot too when I'm out on my single-speed MTB. That bike has a 12"/300mm handlebar. LOL It's fantastic for riding in narrow areas.
> > >
> > > A lot of the old MTB trails in new england started as hiking trails, and the older bike trails were cut with narrow bars and short 90's style wheel bases with 26" wheels in mind. Makes a FS 29er with 6" of front and real travel a bit hard to manage. I see a lot more scars on the sides of trees these days from bars scraping. There is one trail in southern new hampshire that you really _can't_ ride with bars more than 600 mm without doing a lean/twist maneuver, and I remember once about ten years ago, one guy actually got his bars jammed in between the trees and we had to kick it loose. The claim is that you get more control, but I don't buy it, If anything, longer bars means having to move your hands in a wider arc, and forces _against_ the front wheel have more leverage against your control. That said....12"? are you nuts?!?!!? :)
> > I got my first mountain bike way back in the late '80s, I think, mostly
> > to ride in the forest preserve that starts half a mile from my home.
> > That was long enough ago that the bike came with chrome steel "bull
> > moose" bars.
> >
> > Although I'd never heard of anyone doing such a thing, within about a
> > week I'd cut the handlebars down by six or eight inches. It was just too
> > difficult to ride the narrow trails with the original bar width. FWIW, I
> > never perceived any downside to the narrower bars.
> You and flunkmeister deserve each other. 600 mm is 24" and I have never seen a hiking trail that was only 24" wide even on cliffsides. MTB cranks have a clearance on each side of about 7-8" ALL of the trails on the Peninsula starting or ending on Highway 1 were hiking trails and no one would ever have thought to call them 24" wide even when they were overgrown with bush growth in the mid spring.

right, because you know all about single track in new england, right sparky? Here's the trail

https://www.trailforks.com/video/51446/

The narrow trees are at 4:20

On Tuesday, January 11, 2022 at 1:58:11 PM UTC-8, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 11, 2022 at 2:56:42 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Tuesday, January 11, 2022 at 11:37:43 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > On 1/11/2022 2:03 PM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, January 11, 2022 at 1:05:16 PM UTC-5, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> > > >> On Tuesday, January 11, 2022 at 9:23:21 a.m. UTC-5, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > >>> On Tuesday, January 11, 2022 at 8:40:27 AM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> > > >>>> On 1/11/2022 5:41 AM, Duane wrote:
> > > >>>>> Joy Beeson <jbe...@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:
> > > >>>>>> On Fri, 07 Jan 2022 09:03:07 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
> > > >>>>>> wrote:
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> Didn't someone recently mention using that sort of ratio.... down
> > > >>>>>>> hills?
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> For my own use I realized long ago that those sort of ratios were of
> > > >>>>>>> no real use to me and have rebuilt cassettes with gear ratios (gears?)
> > > >>>>>>> that were more in line with what I was capable of using (:-)
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> There's a hill on CR 200 S where I stop at the top and rest five
> > > >>>>>> minutes by the clock, so that I can get up enough speed on the
> > > >>>>>> downhill to make it up the next hill.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> If I lived where there were a lot of such hill pairs, I could use an
> > > >>>>>> overdrive gear despite being weak and slow.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> +1
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> I never understand why one person would tell another person which gears
> > > >>>>> they need.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>> +1
> > > >>>> or tire width, handlebar style, accessories, and so on.
> > > >>>> --
> > > >>>> Andrew Muzi
> > > >>>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> > > >>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> > > >>> +1
> > > >>> The current MTB trend is to use ~ 900mm bars. I've tried wider bars on two occasions over the years, and didn't like the feel either time. I cut them down to ~600 which is marginally wider than my road bars. I still get the occasional comment 'how can you ride bars that narrow?"
> > > >> I get that comment a lot too when I'm out on my single-speed MTB. That bike has a 12"/300mm handlebar. LOL It's fantastic for riding in narrow areas.
> > > >
> > > > A lot of the old MTB trails in new england started as hiking trails, and the older bike trails were cut with narrow bars and short 90's style wheel bases with 26" wheels in mind. Makes a FS 29er with 6" of front and real travel a bit hard to manage. I see a lot more scars on the sides of trees these days from bars scraping. There is one trail in southern new hampshire that you really _can't_ ride with bars more than 600 mm without doing a lean/twist maneuver, and I remember once about ten years ago, one guy actually got his bars jammed in between the trees and we had to kick it loose. The claim is that you get more control, but I don't buy it, If anything, longer bars means having to move your hands in a wider arc, and forces _against_ the front wheel have more leverage against your control. That said....12"? are you nuts?!?!!? :)
> > > I got my first mountain bike way back in the late '80s, I think, mostly
> > > to ride in the forest preserve that starts half a mile from my home.
> > > That was long enough ago that the bike came with chrome steel "bull
> > > moose" bars.
> > >
> > > Although I'd never heard of anyone doing such a thing, within about a
> > > week I'd cut the handlebars down by six or eight inches. It was just too
> > > difficult to ride the narrow trails with the original bar width. FWIW, I
> > > never perceived any downside to the narrower bars.
> > You and flunkmeister deserve each other. 600 mm is 24" and I have never seen a hiking trail that was only 24" wide even on cliffsides. MTB cranks have a clearance on each side of about 7-8" ALL of the trails on the Peninsula starting or ending on Highway 1 were hiking trails and no one would ever have thought to call them 24" wide even when they were overgrown with bush growth in the mid spring.
> right, because you know all about single track in new england, right sparky? Here's the trail
>
> https://www.trailforks.com/video/51446/
>
> The narrow trees are at 4:20

There was more than plenty of room around those trees to run the trail. Those trees were to constitute a control challenge just like riding over those rocks and then that stupid ramp. Only you would consider cutting bars down to ride a pretend hiking trail

On Tuesday, January 11, 2022 at 5:21:23 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 11, 2022 at 1:58:11 PM UTC-8, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > On Tuesday, January 11, 2022 at 2:56:42 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, January 11, 2022 at 11:37:43 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > > On 1/11/2022 2:03 PM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > > > On Tuesday, January 11, 2022 at 1:05:16 PM UTC-5, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> > > > >> On Tuesday, January 11, 2022 at 9:23:21 a.m. UTC-5, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > > >>> On Tuesday, January 11, 2022 at 8:40:27 AM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> > > > >>>> On 1/11/2022 5:41 AM, Duane wrote:
> > > > >>>>> Joy Beeson <jbe...@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:
> > > > >>>>>> On Fri, 07 Jan 2022 09:03:07 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
> > > > >>>>>> wrote:
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>> Didn't someone recently mention using that sort of ratio..... down
> > > > >>>>>>> hills?
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>> For my own use I realized long ago that those sort of ratios were of
> > > > >>>>>>> no real use to me and have rebuilt cassettes with gear ratios (gears?)
> > > > >>>>>>> that were more in line with what I was capable of using (:-)
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> There's a hill on CR 200 S where I stop at the top and rest five
> > > > >>>>>> minutes by the clock, so that I can get up enough speed on the
> > > > >>>>>> downhill to make it up the next hill.
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> If I lived where there were a lot of such hill pairs, I could use an
> > > > >>>>>> overdrive gear despite being weak and slow.
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> +1
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> I never understand why one person would tell another person which gears
> > > > >>>>> they need.
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>> +1
> > > > >>>> or tire width, handlebar style, accessories, and so on.
> > > > >>>> --
> > > > >>>> Andrew Muzi
> > > > >>>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> > > > >>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> > > > >>> +1
> > > > >>> The current MTB trend is to use ~ 900mm bars. I've tried wider bars on two occasions over the years, and didn't like the feel either time. I cut them down to ~600 which is marginally wider than my road bars. I still get the occasional comment 'how can you ride bars that narrow?"
> > > > >> I get that comment a lot too when I'm out on my single-speed MTB.. That bike has a 12"/300mm handlebar. LOL It's fantastic for riding in narrow areas.
> > > > >
> > > > > A lot of the old MTB trails in new england started as hiking trails, and the older bike trails were cut with narrow bars and short 90's style wheel bases with 26" wheels in mind. Makes a FS 29er with 6" of front and real travel a bit hard to manage. I see a lot more scars on the sides of trees these days from bars scraping. There is one trail in southern new hampshire that you really _can't_ ride with bars more than 600 mm without doing a lean/twist maneuver, and I remember once about ten years ago, one guy actually got his bars jammed in between the trees and we had to kick it loose.. The claim is that you get more control, but I don't buy it, If anything, longer bars means having to move your hands in a wider arc, and forces _against_ the front wheel have more leverage against your control. That said.....12"? are you nuts?!?!!? :)
> > > > I got my first mountain bike way back in the late '80s, I think, mostly
> > > > to ride in the forest preserve that starts half a mile from my home..
> > > > That was long enough ago that the bike came with chrome steel "bull
> > > > moose" bars.
> > > >
> > > > Although I'd never heard of anyone doing such a thing, within about a
> > > > week I'd cut the handlebars down by six or eight inches. It was just too
> > > > difficult to ride the narrow trails with the original bar width. FWIW, I
> > > > never perceived any downside to the narrower bars.
> > > You and flunkmeister deserve each other. 600 mm is 24" and I have never seen a hiking trail that was only 24" wide even on cliffsides. MTB cranks have a clearance on each side of about 7-8" ALL of the trails on the Peninsula starting or ending on Highway 1 were hiking trails and no one would ever have thought to call them 24" wide even when they were overgrown with bush growth in the mid spring.
> > right, because you know all about single track in new england, right sparky? Here's the trail
> >
> > https://www.trailforks.com/video/51446/
> >
> > The narrow trees are at 4:20
> There was more than plenty of room around those trees to run the trail. Those trees were to constitute a control challenge just like riding over those rocks and then that stupid ramp. Only you would consider cutting bars down to ride a pretend hiking trail

The trail _was_ set up to be challenging back when bars were only 600mm wide and it was rideable back then. The trail was intentionally blocked around the trees, there was no B line. Creating your own B-line to avoid the challenge is the sign of a really really shitty mountain biker with a serious character flaw. It was never a hiking trail, not even pretend. It was set up over 20 years ago as an MTB trail by NHNEMBA. Once again, you are proven wrong, and your too emotionally damaged to admit it. Shut the fuck up tommy.

On 1/11/2022 3:58 PM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 11, 2022 at 2:56:42 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Tuesday, January 11, 2022 at 11:37:43 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 1/11/2022 2:03 PM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>> On Tuesday, January 11, 2022 at 1:05:16 PM UTC-5, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
>>>>> On Tuesday, January 11, 2022 at 9:23:21 a.m. UTC-5, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Tuesday, January 11, 2022 at 8:40:27 AM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>> On 1/11/2022 5:41 AM, Duane wrote:
>>>>>>>> Joy Beeson <jbe...@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 07 Jan 2022 09:03:07 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Didn't someone recently mention using that sort of ratio.... down
>>>>>>>>>> hills?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> For my own use I realized long ago that those sort of ratios were of
>>>>>>>>>> no real use to me and have rebuilt cassettes with gear ratios (gears?)
>>>>>>>>>> that were more in line with what I was capable of using (:-)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There's a hill on CR 200 S where I stop at the top and rest five
>>>>>>>>> minutes by the clock, so that I can get up enough speed on the
>>>>>>>>> downhill to make it up the next hill.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If I lived where there were a lot of such hill pairs, I could use an
>>>>>>>>> overdrive gear despite being weak and slow.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> +1
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I never understand why one person would tell another person which gears
>>>>>>>> they need.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> +1
>>>>>>> or tire width, handlebar style, accessories, and so on.
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Andrew Muzi
>>>>>>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>>>>>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>>>>>> +1
>>>>>> The current MTB trend is to use ~ 900mm bars. I've tried wider bars on two occasions over the years, and didn't like the feel either time. I cut them down to ~600 which is marginally wider than my road bars. I still get the occasional comment 'how can you ride bars that narrow?"
>>>>> I get that comment a lot too when I'm out on my single-speed MTB. That bike has a 12"/300mm handlebar. LOL It's fantastic for riding in narrow areas.
>>>>
>>>> A lot of the old MTB trails in new england started as hiking trails, and the older bike trails were cut with narrow bars and short 90's style wheel bases with 26" wheels in mind. Makes a FS 29er with 6" of front and real travel a bit hard to manage. I see a lot more scars on the sides of trees these days from bars scraping. There is one trail in southern new hampshire that you really _can't_ ride with bars more than 600 mm without doing a lean/twist maneuver, and I remember once about ten years ago, one guy actually got his bars jammed in between the trees and we had to kick it loose. The claim is that you get more control, but I don't buy it, If anything, longer bars means having to move your hands in a wider arc, and forces _against_ the front wheel have more leverage against your control. That said....12"? are you nuts?!?!!? :)
>>> I got my first mountain bike way back in the late '80s, I think, mostly
>>> to ride in the forest preserve that starts half a mile from my home.
>>> That was long enough ago that the bike came with chrome steel "bull
>>> moose" bars.
>>>
>>> Although I'd never heard of anyone doing such a thing, within about a
>>> week I'd cut the handlebars down by six or eight inches. It was just too
>>> difficult to ride the narrow trails with the original bar width. FWIW, I
>>> never perceived any downside to the narrower bars.
>> You and flunkmeister deserve each other. 600 mm is 24" and I have never seen a hiking trail that was only 24" wide even on cliffsides. MTB cranks have a clearance on each side of about 7-8" ALL of the trails on the Peninsula starting or ending on Highway 1 were hiking trails and no one would ever have thought to call them 24" wide even when they were overgrown with bush growth in the mid spring.
>
> right, because you know all about single track in new england, right sparky? Here's the trail
>
> https://www.trailforks.com/video/51446/
>
> The narrow trees are at 4:20
>

heh heh.
The employees disappear at 4:20.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Tue, 11 Jan 2022 11:13:35 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 1/11/2022 10:39 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> On Tuesday, January 11, 2022 at 3:23:21 PM UTC+1, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, January 11, 2022 at 8:40:27 AM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 1/11/2022 5:41 AM, Duane wrote:
>>>>> Joy Beeson <jbe...@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>> On Fri, 07 Jan 2022 09:03:07 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Didn't someone recently mention using that sort of ratio.... down
>>>>>>> hills?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For my own use I realized long ago that those sort of ratios were of
>>>>>>> no real use to me and have rebuilt cassettes with gear ratios (gears?)
>>>>>>> that were more in line with what I was capable of using (:-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There's a hill on CR 200 S where I stop at the top and rest five
>>>>>> minutes by the clock, so that I can get up enough speed on the
>>>>>> downhill to make it up the next hill.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If I lived where there were a lot of such hill pairs, I could use an
>>>>>> overdrive gear despite being weak and slow.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> +1
>>>>>
>>>>> I never understand why one person would tell another person which gears
>>>>> they need.
>>>>>
>>>> +1
>>>> or tire width, handlebar style, accessories, and so on.
>>>> --
>>>> Andrew Muzi
>>>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>>> +1
>>> The current MTB trend is to use ~ 900mm bars. I've tried wider bars on two occasions over the years, and didn't like the feel either time. I cut them down to ~600 which is marginally wider than my road bars. I still get the occasional comment 'how can you ride bars that narrow?"
>>
>> As someone who doesn't get along with straight bars because of numb hands I often look at people riding those wide bars and think 'how can that be comfortable?', but it is their bike. Often they just use them because they came with the bike not knowing that you can cut them.
>
>I was surprised by a visit to our area's largest bike store a few weeks
>ago. (I usually visit one much closer to my house.) They had probably
>100 road bikes (that is, not mountain bikes) on the floor. Only four had
>drop bars. And for the first time since we joined our club 40 years ago,
>some members are showing up at club rides on new bikes with straight bars.

I tried "straight" bars on one road bike and they made my forearms and
wrists ache and so converted back to conventional "drop" bars although
admittedly I don't actually use the "drop" portion very much, the fore
and aft orientation of the bars seems to be much more comfortable. At
least for me.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 1/11/2022 6:05 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Tue, 11 Jan 2022 11:13:35 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> On 1/11/2022 10:39 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, January 11, 2022 at 3:23:21 PM UTC+1, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>> On Tuesday, January 11, 2022 at 8:40:27 AM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>> On 1/11/2022 5:41 AM, Duane wrote:
>>>>>> Joy Beeson <jbe...@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Fri, 07 Jan 2022 09:03:07 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Didn't someone recently mention using that sort of ratio.... down
>>>>>>>> hills?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> For my own use I realized long ago that those sort of ratios were of
>>>>>>>> no real use to me and have rebuilt cassettes with gear ratios (gears?)
>>>>>>>> that were more in line with what I was capable of using (:-)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There's a hill on CR 200 S where I stop at the top and rest five
>>>>>>> minutes by the clock, so that I can get up enough speed on the
>>>>>>> downhill to make it up the next hill.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If I lived where there were a lot of such hill pairs, I could use an
>>>>>>> overdrive gear despite being weak and slow.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> +1
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I never understand why one person would tell another person which gears
>>>>>> they need.
>>>>>>
>>>>> +1
>>>>> or tire width, handlebar style, accessories, and so on.
>>>>> --
>>>>> Andrew Muzi
>>>>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>>>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>>>> +1
>>>> The current MTB trend is to use ~ 900mm bars. I've tried wider bars on two occasions over the years, and didn't like the feel either time. I cut them down to ~600 which is marginally wider than my road bars. I still get the occasional comment 'how can you ride bars that narrow?"
>>>
>>> As someone who doesn't get along with straight bars because of numb hands I often look at people riding those wide bars and think 'how can that be comfortable?', but it is their bike. Often they just use them because they came with the bike not knowing that you can cut them.
>>
>> I was surprised by a visit to our area's largest bike store a few weeks
>> ago. (I usually visit one much closer to my house.) They had probably
>> 100 road bikes (that is, not mountain bikes) on the floor. Only four had
>> drop bars. And for the first time since we joined our club 40 years ago,
>> some members are showing up at club rides on new bikes with straight bars.
>
> I tried "straight" bars on one road bike and they made my forearms and
> wrists ache and so converted back to conventional "drop" bars although
> admittedly I don't actually use the "drop" portion very much, the fore
> and aft orientation of the bars seems to be much more comfortable. At
> least for me.

I agree about the comfort of having my wrists in a more vertical plane
(drop bars) instead of horizontal.

Drop bars are also helpful for reducing frontal area even when sitting
up. Horizontal wrists on flat bars make your elbows protrude out into
the wind.

When we bought our folding bikes, Bike Friday offered "H Bars" as an
alternative. IIRC they were essentially flat bars with perpendicular
extension on the end. Our bike design choices were made during a phone
call with a Bike Friday consultant. After asking lots of questions about
our riding, he said "You're definitely going to want drop bars."

But my use of that bike has changed. It's mostly used for shorter rides.
I'm considering switching to H Bars, in part because they make the
folded bike more compact.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Tuesday, January 11, 2022 at 5:41:08 AM UTC-6, Duane wrote:
> Joy Beeson <jbe...@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:
> > On Fri, 07 Jan 2022 09:03:07 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Didn't someone recently mention using that sort of ratio.... down
> >> hills?
> >>
> >> For my own use I realized long ago that those sort of ratios were of
> >> no real use to me and have rebuilt cassettes with gear ratios (gears?)
> >> that were more in line with what I was capable of using (:-)
> >
> >
> > There's a hill on CR 200 S where I stop at the top and rest five
> > minutes by the clock, so that I can get up enough speed on the
> > downhill to make it up the next hill.
> >
> > If I lived where there were a lot of such hill pairs, I could use an
> > overdrive gear despite being weak and slow.
> >
> +1
>
> I never understand why one person would tell another person which gears
> they need.

To be helpful. I've ridden my bikes up mountains. Loaded and unloaded bikes. I know exactly what gears everyone who is not a professional bike racer need to ride their bikes up mountains. Many people do not have actual experience in many things. So they need advice, recommendations, from someone who does have experience.

On Tuesday, January 11, 2022 at 1:49:46 PM UTC-6, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 11, 2022 at 10:53:13 AM UTC-8, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > On Tuesday, January 11, 2022 at 11:40:19 AM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > On 1/11/2022 10:05 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Thursday, January 6, 2022 at 11:00:54 PM UTC-5, frkr...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > >> On Thursday, January 6, 2022 at 6:03:16 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
> > > >>> On Thu, 6 Jan 2022 17:18:19 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > >>>> We've discussed this before. Super high gears are a weird fashion, useless for almost all riders.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> - Frank Krygowski
> > > >>> Didn't someone recently mention using that sort of ratio.... down
> > > >>> hills?
> > > >> IIRC, Jay was enthusiastic about high gears. His argument was, essentially, "Well I used it yesterday."
> > > >> But I don't recall any indication that the use was ever productive, and I don't see how it could be.
> > > >
> > > > This again Frank? There are people who use the 11 either out of necessity or preference. As some one who actively still competes, I do use the 11 on a regular basis. If you find an application where an 11 works - either to maintain speed down a hill/drafting, or sprinting for training or in a race - then it's 'productive'.
> > > Right. I've never disputed that an 11 cog (or more generally, gears
> > > above around 110 inches) can be useful for competition. Cruising in a
> > > high speed dense pack, or the back of a paceline, or kicking up a fast
> > > finishing sprint, sure. But I think there are only two people here who
> > > still race.
> > >
> > > The usual justification for high gears seems to be "I can pedal
> > > downhill." But you know quite a bit about aero drag. So what are your
> > > thoughts on a recreational rider coming out of an aero tuck to spin his
> > > legs on an 11 tooth cog?
> > That's where some experience comes in - spinning an 11 is something I really only do a few times a year. If you're coasting fast enough that you would turn an 11 beyond comfortable spin, you're probably better off keeping a tuck unless you can sustain a high speed spin _and_ there's a reason for it such as catching back on the pack after getting dropped on a climb, or trying to keep a gap from a chasing group on a downhill. For the average recreational cyclist and even most sport riders, I agree there isn't much point to having an 11 unless you're going to compete for those weekend warrior town line sprints.
> > > How often is that a net gain? Compare it to
> > > putting a bigger cog at the other end of the cassette.
> > Most recreational riders would certainly benefit more from a bigger low cog. I will concede there are the certain people who want the 11 for more of a fashion accessory, but those are the types that also feel the need for a Tarmac SL-7 with Enve rims and DI2, pushing $14K for a bike that will never go more than 25 MPH. Sure it's a waste, but I won't judge them for it.
> Riding from Carnegie Park back to Tracy with a group of Filipinos in the 150-11 I was riding at 42 mph. There was a good tailwind but that's a bit faster than 25 mph.

Can't say I pay much attention to the nationality and/or race of the people I ride with. I do notice the gender. Unfortunately almost exclusively male. The group I ride with sometimes does have one black man as a rider. The only black rider. So I do notice that. But don't give it much attention.

Tommy, is there a reason you saw the need to write their nationality? Is it significant that they were from the Philippines islands? Why didn't you write the sentence as "Riding from Carnegie Park back to Tracy with a group, I was riding at 42 mph."

On Tuesday, January 11, 2022 at 6:05:06 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> On 1/11/2022 3:58 PM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > On Tuesday, January 11, 2022 at 2:56:42 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On Tuesday, January 11, 2022 at 11:37:43 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>> On 1/11/2022 2:03 PM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >>>> On Tuesday, January 11, 2022 at 1:05:16 PM UTC-5, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> >>>>> On Tuesday, January 11, 2022 at 9:23:21 a.m. UTC-5, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >>>>>> On Tuesday, January 11, 2022 at 8:40:27 AM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>>>> On 1/11/2022 5:41 AM, Duane wrote:
> >>>>>>>> Joy Beeson <jbe...@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On Fri, 07 Jan 2022 09:03:07 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Didn't someone recently mention using that sort of ratio.... down
> >>>>>>>>>> hills?
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> For my own use I realized long ago that those sort of ratios were of
> >>>>>>>>>> no real use to me and have rebuilt cassettes with gear ratios (gears?)
> >>>>>>>>>> that were more in line with what I was capable of using (:-)
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> There's a hill on CR 200 S where I stop at the top and rest five
> >>>>>>>>> minutes by the clock, so that I can get up enough speed on the
> >>>>>>>>> downhill to make it up the next hill.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> If I lived where there were a lot of such hill pairs, I could use an
> >>>>>>>>> overdrive gear despite being weak and slow.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> +1
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I never understand why one person would tell another person which gears
> >>>>>>>> they need.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> +1
> >>>>>>> or tire width, handlebar style, accessories, and so on.
> >>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>> Andrew Muzi
> >>>>>>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> >>>>>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> >>>>>> +1
> >>>>>> The current MTB trend is to use ~ 900mm bars. I've tried wider bars on two occasions over the years, and didn't like the feel either time. I cut them down to ~600 which is marginally wider than my road bars. I still get the occasional comment 'how can you ride bars that narrow?"
> >>>>> I get that comment a lot too when I'm out on my single-speed MTB. That bike has a 12"/300mm handlebar. LOL It's fantastic for riding in narrow areas.
> >>>>
> >>>> A lot of the old MTB trails in new england started as hiking trails, and the older bike trails were cut with narrow bars and short 90's style wheel bases with 26" wheels in mind. Makes a FS 29er with 6" of front and real travel a bit hard to manage. I see a lot more scars on the sides of trees these days from bars scraping. There is one trail in southern new hampshire that you really _can't_ ride with bars more than 600 mm without doing a lean/twist maneuver, and I remember once about ten years ago, one guy actually got his bars jammed in between the trees and we had to kick it loose. The claim is that you get more control, but I don't buy it, If anything, longer bars means having to move your hands in a wider arc, and forces _against_ the front wheel have more leverage against your control. That said....12"? are you nuts?!?!!? :)
> >>> I got my first mountain bike way back in the late '80s, I think, mostly
> >>> to ride in the forest preserve that starts half a mile from my home.
> >>> That was long enough ago that the bike came with chrome steel "bull
> >>> moose" bars.
> >>>
> >>> Although I'd never heard of anyone doing such a thing, within about a
> >>> week I'd cut the handlebars down by six or eight inches. It was just too
> >>> difficult to ride the narrow trails with the original bar width. FWIW, I
> >>> never perceived any downside to the narrower bars.
> >> You and flunkmeister deserve each other. 600 mm is 24" and I have never seen a hiking trail that was only 24" wide even on cliffsides. MTB cranks have a clearance on each side of about 7-8" ALL of the trails on the Peninsula starting or ending on Highway 1 were hiking trails and no one would ever have thought to call them 24" wide even when they were overgrown with bush growth in the mid spring.
> >
> > right, because you know all about single track in new england, right sparky? Here's the trail
> >
> > https://www.trailforks.com/video/51446/
> >
> > The narrow trees are at 4:20
> >
> heh heh.
> The employees disappear at 4:20.
> --
"Safety Committee Meeting"...lol

On 1/11/2022 9:26 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 1/11/2022 6:05 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Tue, 11 Jan 2022 11:13:35 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 1/11/2022 10:39 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>> On Tuesday, January 11, 2022 at 3:23:21 PM UTC+1,
>>>> funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>>> On Tuesday, January 11, 2022 at 8:40:27 AM UTC-5, AMuzi
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> On 1/11/2022 5:41 AM, Duane wrote:
>>>>>>> Joy Beeson <jbe...@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Fri, 07 Jan 2022 09:03:07 +0700, John B.
>>>>>>>> <sloc...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Didn't someone recently mention using that sort of
>>>>>>>>> ratio.... down
>>>>>>>>> hills?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> For my own use I realized long ago that those sort
>>>>>>>>> of ratios were of
>>>>>>>>> no real use to me and have rebuilt cassettes with
>>>>>>>>> gear ratios (gears?)
>>>>>>>>> that were more in line with what I was capable of
>>>>>>>>> using (:-)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There's a hill on CR 200 S where I stop at the top
>>>>>>>> and rest five
>>>>>>>> minutes by the clock, so that I can get up enough
>>>>>>>> speed on the
>>>>>>>> downhill to make it up the next hill.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If I lived where there were a lot of such hill
>>>>>>>> pairs, I could use an
>>>>>>>> overdrive gear despite being weak and slow.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> +1
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I never understand why one person would tell another
>>>>>>> person which gears
>>>>>>> they need.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> +1
>>>>>> or tire width, handlebar style, accessories, and so on.
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Andrew Muzi
>>>>>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>>>>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>>>>> +1
>>>>> The current MTB trend is to use ~ 900mm bars. I've
>>>>> tried wider bars on two occasions over the years, and
>>>>> didn't like the feel either time. I cut them down to
>>>>> ~600 which is marginally wider than my road bars. I
>>>>> still get the occasional comment 'how can you ride bars
>>>>> that narrow?"
>>>>
>>>> As someone who doesn't get along with straight bars
>>>> because of numb hands I often look at people riding
>>>> those wide bars and think 'how can that be
>>>> comfortable?', but it is their bike. Often they just use
>>>> them because they came with the bike not knowing that
>>>> you can cut them.
>>>
>>> I was surprised by a visit to our area's largest bike
>>> store a few weeks
>>> ago. (I usually visit one much closer to my house.) They
>>> had probably
>>> 100 road bikes (that is, not mountain bikes) on the
>>> floor. Only four had
>>> drop bars. And for the first time since we joined our
>>> club 40 years ago,
>>> some members are showing up at club rides on new bikes
>>> with straight bars.
>>
>> I tried "straight" bars on one road bike and they made my
>> forearms and
>> wrists ache and so converted back to conventional "drop"
>> bars although
>> admittedly I don't actually use the "drop" portion very
>> much, the fore
>> and aft orientation of the bars seems to be much more
>> comfortable. At
>> least for me.
>
> I agree about the comfort of having my wrists in a more
> vertical plane (drop bars) instead of horizontal.
>
> Drop bars are also helpful for reducing frontal area even
> when sitting up. Horizontal wrists on flat bars make your
> elbows protrude out into the wind.
>
> When we bought our folding bikes, Bike Friday offered "H
> Bars" as an alternative. IIRC they were essentially flat
> bars with perpendicular extension on the end. Our bike
> design choices were made during a phone call with a Bike
> Friday consultant. After asking lots of questions about our
> riding, he said "You're definitely going to want drop bars."
>
> But my use of that bike has changed. It's mostly used for
> shorter rides. I'm considering switching to H Bars, in part
> because they make the folded bike more compact.
>
>
+1
I like flat bars on my most-ridden bikes for better slow
speed (urban) control and better vision/visibility. At
something over around 15 miles, I find road bars more
comfortable for ability to regularly change position, wrist
orientation, weight over bars etc..

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Tuesday, January 11, 2022 at 10:46:00 PM UTC-8, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 11, 2022 at 1:49:46 PM UTC-6, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Tuesday, January 11, 2022 at 10:53:13 AM UTC-8, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, January 11, 2022 at 11:40:19 AM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > > On 1/11/2022 10:05 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > > > On Thursday, January 6, 2022 at 11:00:54 PM UTC-5, frkr...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > >> On Thursday, January 6, 2022 at 6:03:16 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
> > > > >>> On Thu, 6 Jan 2022 17:18:19 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > > >>>> We've discussed this before. Super high gears are a weird fashion, useless for almost all riders.
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> - Frank Krygowski
> > > > >>> Didn't someone recently mention using that sort of ratio.... down
> > > > >>> hills?
> > > > >> IIRC, Jay was enthusiastic about high gears. His argument was, essentially, "Well I used it yesterday."
> > > > >> But I don't recall any indication that the use was ever productive, and I don't see how it could be.
> > > > >
> > > > > This again Frank? There are people who use the 11 either out of necessity or preference. As some one who actively still competes, I do use the 11 on a regular basis. If you find an application where an 11 works - either to maintain speed down a hill/drafting, or sprinting for training or in a race - then it's 'productive'.
> > > > Right. I've never disputed that an 11 cog (or more generally, gears
> > > > above around 110 inches) can be useful for competition. Cruising in a
> > > > high speed dense pack, or the back of a paceline, or kicking up a fast
> > > > finishing sprint, sure. But I think there are only two people here who
> > > > still race.
> > > >
> > > > The usual justification for high gears seems to be "I can pedal
> > > > downhill." But you know quite a bit about aero drag. So what are your
> > > > thoughts on a recreational rider coming out of an aero tuck to spin his
> > > > legs on an 11 tooth cog?
> > > That's where some experience comes in - spinning an 11 is something I really only do a few times a year. If you're coasting fast enough that you would turn an 11 beyond comfortable spin, you're probably better off keeping a tuck unless you can sustain a high speed spin _and_ there's a reason for it such as catching back on the pack after getting dropped on a climb, or trying to keep a gap from a chasing group on a downhill. For the average recreational cyclist and even most sport riders, I agree there isn't much point to having an 11 unless you're going to compete for those weekend warrior town line sprints.
> > > > How often is that a net gain? Compare it to
> > > > putting a bigger cog at the other end of the cassette.
> > > Most recreational riders would certainly benefit more from a bigger low cog. I will concede there are the certain people who want the 11 for more of a fashion accessory, but those are the types that also feel the need for a Tarmac SL-7 with Enve rims and DI2, pushing $14K for a bike that will never go more than 25 MPH. Sure it's a waste, but I won't judge them for it..
> > Riding from Carnegie Park back to Tracy with a group of Filipinos in the 150-11 I was riding at 42 mph. There was a good tailwind but that's a bit faster than 25 mph.
> Can't say I pay much attention to the nationality and/or race of the people I ride with. I do notice the gender. Unfortunately almost exclusively male. The group I ride with sometimes does have one black man as a rider. The only black rider. So I do notice that. But don't give it much attention.
>
> Tommy, is there a reason you saw the need to write their nationality? Is it significant that they were from the Philippines islands? Why didn't you write the sentence as "Riding from Carnegie Park back to Tracy with a group, I was riding at 42 mph."

My cousins are Filipino (a race), and both of my living brothers are married to Filipinas. I mentioned their race because it was a VERY large group in which I was the only white man. There used to be a very GOOD group of black racers that raced for the UC bike club in Berkeley. Hispanic racers are common even in the pro ranks. It must drive you crazy to hear that this isn't a white passtime.

On Wednesday, January 12, 2022 at 5:46:42 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> On 1/11/2022 9:26 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 1/11/2022 6:05 PM, John B. wrote:
> >> On Tue, 11 Jan 2022 11:13:35 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> >> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 1/11/2022 10:39 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> >>>> On Tuesday, January 11, 2022 at 3:23:21 PM UTC+1,
> >>>> funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >>>>> On Tuesday, January 11, 2022 at 8:40:27 AM UTC-5, AMuzi
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>> On 1/11/2022 5:41 AM, Duane wrote:
> >>>>>>> Joy Beeson <jbe...@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On Fri, 07 Jan 2022 09:03:07 +0700, John B.
> >>>>>>>> <sloc...@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Didn't someone recently mention using that sort of
> >>>>>>>>> ratio.... down
> >>>>>>>>> hills?
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> For my own use I realized long ago that those sort
> >>>>>>>>> of ratios were of
> >>>>>>>>> no real use to me and have rebuilt cassettes with
> >>>>>>>>> gear ratios (gears?)
> >>>>>>>>> that were more in line with what I was capable of
> >>>>>>>>> using (:-)
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> There's a hill on CR 200 S where I stop at the top
> >>>>>>>> and rest five
> >>>>>>>> minutes by the clock, so that I can get up enough
> >>>>>>>> speed on the
> >>>>>>>> downhill to make it up the next hill.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> If I lived where there were a lot of such hill
> >>>>>>>> pairs, I could use an
> >>>>>>>> overdrive gear despite being weak and slow.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> +1
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I never understand why one person would tell another
> >>>>>>> person which gears
> >>>>>>> they need.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> +1
> >>>>>> or tire width, handlebar style, accessories, and so on.
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>> Andrew Muzi
> >>>>>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> >>>>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> >>>>> +1
> >>>>> The current MTB trend is to use ~ 900mm bars. I've
> >>>>> tried wider bars on two occasions over the years, and
> >>>>> didn't like the feel either time. I cut them down to
> >>>>> ~600 which is marginally wider than my road bars. I
> >>>>> still get the occasional comment 'how can you ride bars
> >>>>> that narrow?"
> >>>>
> >>>> As someone who doesn't get along with straight bars
> >>>> because of numb hands I often look at people riding
> >>>> those wide bars and think 'how can that be
> >>>> comfortable?', but it is their bike. Often they just use
> >>>> them because they came with the bike not knowing that
> >>>> you can cut them.
> >>>
> >>> I was surprised by a visit to our area's largest bike
> >>> store a few weeks
> >>> ago. (I usually visit one much closer to my house.) They
> >>> had probably
> >>> 100 road bikes (that is, not mountain bikes) on the
> >>> floor. Only four had
> >>> drop bars. And for the first time since we joined our
> >>> club 40 years ago,
> >>> some members are showing up at club rides on new bikes
> >>> with straight bars.
> >>
> >> I tried "straight" bars on one road bike and they made my
> >> forearms and
> >> wrists ache and so converted back to conventional "drop"
> >> bars although
> >> admittedly I don't actually use the "drop" portion very
> >> much, the fore
> >> and aft orientation of the bars seems to be much more
> >> comfortable. At
> >> least for me.
> >
> > I agree about the comfort of having my wrists in a more
> > vertical plane (drop bars) instead of horizontal.
> >
> > Drop bars are also helpful for reducing frontal area even
> > when sitting up. Horizontal wrists on flat bars make your
> > elbows protrude out into the wind.
> >
> > When we bought our folding bikes, Bike Friday offered "H
> > Bars" as an alternative. IIRC they were essentially flat
> > bars with perpendicular extension on the end. Our bike
> > design choices were made during a phone call with a Bike
> > Friday consultant. After asking lots of questions about our
> > riding, he said "You're definitely going to want drop bars."
> >
> > But my use of that bike has changed. It's mostly used for
> > shorter rides. I'm considering switching to H Bars, in part
> > because they make the folded bike more compact.
> >
> >
> +1
> I like flat bars on my most-ridden bikes for better slow
> speed (urban) control and better vision/visibility. At
> something over around 15 miles, I find road bars more
> comfortable for ability to regularly change position, wrist
> orientation, weight over bars etc..

I seldom use the drops since I no longer race, but the group got a ways ahead of me the other Saturday and I was perhaps an eighth of a miles behind and not catching up. Going down in the drops greatly increased my speed and I rapidly went from back to front.

On Tuesday, January 11, 2022 at 4:58:11 p.m. UTC-5, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 11, 2022 at 2:56:42 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Tuesday, January 11, 2022 at 11:37:43 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > On 1/11/2022 2:03 PM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, January 11, 2022 at 1:05:16 PM UTC-5, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> > > >> On Tuesday, January 11, 2022 at 9:23:21 a.m. UTC-5, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > >>> On Tuesday, January 11, 2022 at 8:40:27 AM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> > > >>>> On 1/11/2022 5:41 AM, Duane wrote:
> > > >>>>> Joy Beeson <jbe...@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:
> > > >>>>>> On Fri, 07 Jan 2022 09:03:07 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
> > > >>>>>> wrote:
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> Didn't someone recently mention using that sort of ratio.... down
> > > >>>>>>> hills?
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> For my own use I realized long ago that those sort of ratios were of
> > > >>>>>>> no real use to me and have rebuilt cassettes with gear ratios (gears?)
> > > >>>>>>> that were more in line with what I was capable of using (:-)
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> There's a hill on CR 200 S where I stop at the top and rest five
> > > >>>>>> minutes by the clock, so that I can get up enough speed on the
> > > >>>>>> downhill to make it up the next hill.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> If I lived where there were a lot of such hill pairs, I could use an
> > > >>>>>> overdrive gear despite being weak and slow.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> +1
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> I never understand why one person would tell another person which gears
> > > >>>>> they need.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>> +1
> > > >>>> or tire width, handlebar style, accessories, and so on.
> > > >>>> --
> > > >>>> Andrew Muzi
> > > >>>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> > > >>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> > > >>> +1
> > > >>> The current MTB trend is to use ~ 900mm bars. I've tried wider bars on two occasions over the years, and didn't like the feel either time. I cut them down to ~600 which is marginally wider than my road bars. I still get the occasional comment 'how can you ride bars that narrow?"
> > > >> I get that comment a lot too when I'm out on my single-speed MTB. That bike has a 12"/300mm handlebar. LOL It's fantastic for riding in narrow areas.
> > > >
> > > > A lot of the old MTB trails in new england started as hiking trails, and the older bike trails were cut with narrow bars and short 90's style wheel bases with 26" wheels in mind. Makes a FS 29er with 6" of front and real travel a bit hard to manage. I see a lot more scars on the sides of trees these days from bars scraping. There is one trail in southern new hampshire that you really _can't_ ride with bars more than 600 mm without doing a lean/twist maneuver, and I remember once about ten years ago, one guy actually got his bars jammed in between the trees and we had to kick it loose. The claim is that you get more control, but I don't buy it, If anything, longer bars means having to move your hands in a wider arc, and forces _against_ the front wheel have more leverage against your control. That said....12"? are you nuts?!?!!? :)
> > > I got my first mountain bike way back in the late '80s, I think, mostly
> > > to ride in the forest preserve that starts half a mile from my home.
> > > That was long enough ago that the bike came with chrome steel "bull
> > > moose" bars.
> > >
> > > Although I'd never heard of anyone doing such a thing, within about a
> > > week I'd cut the handlebars down by six or eight inches. It was just too
> > > difficult to ride the narrow trails with the original bar width. FWIW, I
> > > never perceived any downside to the narrower bars.
> > You and flunkmeister deserve each other. 600 mm is 24" and I have never seen a hiking trail that was only 24" wide even on cliffsides. MTB cranks have a clearance on each side of about 7-8" ALL of the trails on the Peninsula starting or ending on Highway 1 were hiking trails and no one would ever have thought to call them 24" wide even when they were overgrown with bush growth in the mid spring.
> right, because you know all about single track in new england, right sparky? Here's the trail
>
> https://www.trailforks.com/video/51446/
>
> The narrow trees are at 4:20

My 12" (300mm) handlebar would have got past those narrow spaced trees without any problem. LOL

Cheers

On Tue, 11 Jan 2022 13:58:08 -0800 (PST), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
<funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:

[snip]

> https://www.trailforks.com/video/51446/

Is the trail overrun with deer? There appears to be a dearth of
bushes and young trees.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at centurylink dot net

On Sunday, January 16, 2022 at 11:14:33 PM UTC-5, Joy Beeson wrote:
> On Tue, 11 Jan 2022 13:58:08 -0800 (PST), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
> <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> > https://www.trailforks.com/video/51446/
>
> Is the trail overrun with deer? There appears to be a dearth of
> bushes and young trees.
>
Joy,
It's a combination of that time of year and the type of forest. You can tell from the way they are dressed it's pretty cold, so any low bushes and saplings aren't in leaf. It's also a pine forest, and the soil is very sandy and rocky. In fact if you look at the left side of the screen at 2:15 you can see a portion of the rather large sand pit. Between the sand and the pine trees (Easter white pine - which do well in the sandy soil), the soil is also very acidic which limits a lot of heavy low brush as well as most of the indigenous deciduous trees. Besides that, there _is_ a very healthy deer population, further liming low brush growth. There are a lot of forested areas in New England like that.