On 2024-02-20 10:07, soyon wrote:
> David B. wrote on 20.02.2024 06:31
>> https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/forums/t/794583/apple-support-communities-asc-forums-access/
>
> Nice find.
>
> I love the post with the screenshot from Apple saying essentially that
> Apple's walled garden falls apart like a Potemkin village the instant
> you don't constantly and repeatedly, day after day, always log into
> Apple's servers (every day of your life, forever!) using the same Apple ID.

Your basic premise is false and misleading (that you Arlen?) - and that
you're echoing off of that idiot diminishes your very low standing even
further.

You can do everything on an iPhone communications wise that you can do
with Android. That is e-mail, SMS/MMS, other messaging platforms, surf
the web, etc. and so on, w/o being logged into Apple's system. And of
course to the extent that 10's of thousands of apps provide their own
servers, etc., those are also accessible w/o logging into Apple's servers.

The benefit of being logged into iCloud is the other Apple provided
services for communications and integration of services (as oft listed
in the past). This is the "apple eco-system" that makes using using
various Apple devices such as a Mac and iPhone so seamless and
convenient. All of this over a very strongly encrypted communications
system run by a company that sells products and services - not people's
information - like Android producer Google.

So, bleat out your nonsense attack on Apple again and again and again,
it doesn't change the reality of things.

--
“Markets can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent.”
- John Maynard Keynes.

Alan Browne wrote:

>On 2024-02-20 10:07, soyon wrote:
>>David B. wrote on 20.02.2024 06:31
>>>https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/forums/t/794583/apple-support-communities-asc-forums-access/
>>
>>Nice find.
>>
>>I love the post with the screenshot from Apple saying essentially
>>that Apple's walled garden falls apart like a Potemkin village the
>>instant you don't constantly and repeatedly, day after day, always
>>log into Apple's servers (every day of your life, forever!) using
>>the same Apple ID.
>
>Your basic premise is false and misleading (that you Arlen?) - and
>that you're echoing off of that idiot diminishes your very low
>standing even further.
>
>You can do everything on an iPhone communications wise that you can
>do with Android. That is e-mail, SMS/MMS, other messaging platforms,
>surf the web, etc. and so on, w/o being logged into Apple's system.
>And of course to the extent that 10's of thousands of apps provide
>their own servers, etc., those are also accessible w/o logging into
>Apple's servers.
>
>The benefit of being logged into iCloud is the other Apple provided
>services for communications and integration of services (as oft
>listed in the past). This is the "apple eco-system" that makes using
>using various Apple devices such as a Mac and iPhone so seamless and
>convenient. All of this over a very strongly encrypted
>communications system run by a company that sells products and
>services - not people's information - like Android producer Google.
>
>So, bleat out your nonsense attack on Apple again and again and
>again, it doesn't change the reality of things.

Can you setup a new iPhone without an AppleID?

On Tue, 20 Feb 2024 10:45:18 -0500, Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com>
wrote

> Data brokers maintain rather large matrices of data for any given key
> (name, e-mail address, etc.)

Indeed, you are correct 'they' do a lot of mining of your personal data.

"From ads to analytics, everyone's favorite 'privacy' company is doing
more with your data than you might think."
https://gizmodo.com/apple-iphone-ipad-privacy-problems-data-gathering-1849855092

Apple harvests lots of personal information, often in ways that you might
not expect if you foolishly buy into the company's empty promise that 'what
happens on your iPhone, stays on your iPhone.' The harsh reality is that
Apple incessantly uses your personal (and very private) identifying
information for advertising, developing new products, and much more.

"Apple Is Tracking You Even When Its Own Privacy Settings Say It's Not"
https://gizmodo.com/apple-iphone-analytics-tracking-even-when-off-app-store-1849757558

For all of Apple's empty talk about how private your iPhone is, the company
increasingly vacuums up a lot of data about you even when you turn off
tracking, which is a stark and very direct contradiction of Apple's own
description of how they advertised their privacy protection to work.

"'The level of detail is shocking for a company like Apple,' Mysk told
Gizmodo... Apple harvests information about every single thing you did in
real time, including what you tapped on, which apps you search for, what
ads you saw, and how long you looked at a given app and how you found it."

On Tue, 20 Feb 2024 10:54:59 -0500, Alan Browne wrote:
> You can do everything on an iPhone communications wise that you can do
> with Android.

Good.

Because I want to change the default messenger app on iOS like Android
does?

Oh wait? You can't?

Then I want to automatically record my phone calls on iOS like Android
does.

Oh wait? You can't?

Well then, I want to be able to change my ringtones to be different for
every application and for each message depending on the sender like Android
does.

Oh wait? You can't?

Well then, at least I can dial directly using a WhatsApp dialer like
Android?

No? You still can't do even something that simple on iOS?

At least can I have my dialer and my WhatsApp use different contacts?
No?

What the heck.

You seem to have a very limited view of what "everything" means for
communications since to you, "everything" is only "iMessages".

Well at least you can communicate with your default messaging app on any
platform you want (including Windows and Linux too!) right?

No?

What the heck.
You can't do any communications on iOS that Android has no problem doing.

On 2024-02-20 03:31, David B. wrote:
> On 20 Feb 2024 at 09:40:44 GMT, "Frank Slootweg" <this@ddress.is.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> badgolferman <REMOVETHISbadgolferman@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:
>>>> badgolferman <REMOVETHISbadgolferman@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:
>> [...]
>>>>> For some people it comes down to who is more trustworthy with their
>>>>> personal information, Apple or Google/Facebook.
>>>>
>>>> For 'instant messaging' - i.e. iMessage versus WhatsApp - and video
>>>> calling/conferencing - i.e. FaceTime versus WhatsApp - it's irrelevant,
>>>> because end-to-end-encryption ensures that no-one has access to "their
>>>> personal information".
>>>
>>> Yeah, right?
>>>
>>> You really think Apple, Google, Facebook don?t have the ability to
>>> intercept and decode ?encrypted data??
>>
>> They probably can and probably will do if demanded by law enforcement,
>> etc..
>>
>> They can't and don't as part of their normal way of operating. That's
>> the point.
>>
>> BTW, I don't understand why you're throwing Google in the mix, because
>> Google is not involved in iMessage, nor WhatsApp.
>>
>> ('Facebook' is involved, if you actually mean to say 'Meta' (which
>> WhatsApp is part of.)
>
> https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/forums/t/794583/apple-support-communities-asc-forums-access/

Fuck off, David.

On 2024-02-20 08:43, badgolferman wrote:
> Alan Browne wrote:
>
>> On 2024-02-20 10:07, soyon wrote:
>>> David B. wrote on 20.02.2024 06:31
>>>> https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/forums/t/794583/apple-support-communities-asc-forums-access/
>>>
>>> Nice find.
>>>
>>> I love the post with the screenshot from Apple saying essentially
>>> that Apple's walled garden falls apart like a Potemkin village the
>>> instant you don't constantly and repeatedly, day after day, always
>>> log into Apple's servers (every day of your life, forever!) using
>>> the same Apple ID.
>>
>> Your basic premise is false and misleading (that you Arlen?) - and
>> that you're echoing off of that idiot diminishes your very low
>> standing even further.
>>
>> You can do everything on an iPhone communications wise that you can
>> do with Android. That is e-mail, SMS/MMS, other messaging platforms,
>> surf the web, etc. and so on, w/o being logged into Apple's system.
>> And of course to the extent that 10's of thousands of apps provide
>> their own servers, etc., those are also accessible w/o logging into
>> Apple's servers.
>>
>> The benefit of being logged into iCloud is the other Apple provided
>> services for communications and integration of services (as oft
>> listed in the past). This is the "apple eco-system" that makes using
>> using various Apple devices such as a Mac and iPhone so seamless and
>> convenient. All of this over a very strongly encrypted
>> communications system run by a company that sells products and
>> services - not people's information - like Android producer Google.
>>
>> So, bleat out your nonsense attack on Apple again and again and
>> again, it doesn't change the reality of things.
>
>
> Can you setup a new iPhone without an AppleID?

Yup.

30 seconds of personal research could have answered that for you.

On this Tue, 20 Feb 2024 10:47:15 -0500, Alan Browne wrote:

> E2E encryption means exactly that.

Except when E2E doesn't mean anything at all, which is when everyone is not
fully inside the Apple walled garden (which requires an iCloud account).

Apple's own words are below from https://support.apple.com/en-us/102651

"With standard data protection, iCloud content that you share with other
people is not end-to-end encrypted!

Advanced Data Protection is designed to maintain end-to-end encryption for
shared content as long as all participants have Advanced Data Protection
enabled. This level of protection is supported in most iCloud sharing
features, including iCloud Shared Photo Library, iCloud Drive shared
folders, and shared Notes."

On 2024-02-20 12:02, Oliver wrote:
> On Tue, 20 Feb 2024 10:45:18 -0500, Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com>
> wrote
>> Data brokers maintain rather large matrices of data for any given key
>> (name, e-mail address, etc.)
>
> Indeed, you are correct 'they' do a lot of mining of your personal data.
>
> "From ads to analytics, everyone's favorite 'privacy' company is doing
> more with your data than you might think."
> https://gizmodo.com/apple-iphone-ipad-privacy-problems-data-gathering-1849855092

The degree to which Apple does collect data for use with partner co's is
well identified in agreements you make with Apple to use their services.
It is a pale shadow of what other co's do ... w/o disclosing anything at
all.

But do go on inflating the flat cushion as much as you can while
ignoring the crush of the big cushions around you.

--
“Markets can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent.”
- John Maynard Keynes.

On 2024-02-20 12:43, Charlie wrote:
> On this Tue, 20 Feb 2024 10:47:15 -0500, Alan Browne wrote:
>
>> E2E encryption means exactly that.
>
> Except when E2E doesn't mean anything at all, which is when everyone is not
> fully inside the Apple walled garden (which requires an iCloud account).

Yes, to use services such as iMessage you have to have an iCloud account
and be logged in. Shocker. And billions do it happily because it is a
far better experience (and very secure) than to not do so.
And Apple do not charge for it - you get it gratis with you iPhone
(iPad, Mac, etc.).

>
> Apple's own words are below from https://support.apple.com/en-us/102651
>
> "With standard data protection, iCloud content that you share with other
> people is not end-to-end encrypted.

Removed the "!".

This depends on the service - iMessage has been end-to-end for a long
time and messaging is the context of the present topic.

But do go on digging for the exceptions.

--
“Markets can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent.”
- John Maynard Keynes.

Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
> On 2024-02-20 04:57, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> > badgolferman <REMOVETHISbadgolferman@gmail.com> wrote:
> > [...]
> >
> >> Regardless of what iOS can or cannot do, the fact remains that Google
> >> admits to using your private data, and even use it to make money. Does
> >> Apple do that?
> >
> > Google uses "your private data" to present ads to *you*. That's how
> > they "make money", no "admit" nor "even" about it.
> >
> > If they would use "your private data" for any other purpose - without
> > your consent - they will be sued to smithereens, at least in the EU.
> >
> > As I've said many times before, contrary to all the FUD, urban legends,
> > and other nonsense which is frequently spouted in these groups, I have
> > yet to experience *any* ill effect - i.e. 'spam', privacy issues, etc. -
> > from my use of Google products.
>
> When I browse Amazon for products, my girlfriend sees ads for some of
> them on her laptop within 24 hours.

Same here. Probably you two are 'behind' a NAT router and 'hence'
share the same IP, which makes it hard for the ad generation to tell you
two apart. So much for the famous 'fingerprinting'.

> > And Google does not even *have* any of my "private data", other than
> > the data which I provided, which is limited to my name, my/their e-mail
> > address, mobile number and birthday. That's it.
>
> Sad that you shared your birthday.

I don't *share* my birthday, my Google *Account* has my birthday.

The public info ('About me') is only my name and my Gmail address. All
other information can be disabled/locked and is disabled/locked.

> I use a fake birthday on all
> websites (except where legally required to use my real birth date:
> government tax sites, bank, driver's license and insurance).

Same here.

> Data brokers maintain rather large matrices of data for any given key
> (name, e-mail address, etc.) And as they "fill the blanks" and
> correlate and "fingerprint" your behaviour, the blank filling
> accelerates and the matrices of data condense making their portrait of
> you very accurate.
>
> They can't get everything, but they do get an astonishing amount of
> data. Do they use it "maliciously"? Not so much other than to sell the
> data to those wishing to target you to buy something.

Yes, several posters keep talking about this alleged "astonishing
amount of data", but as I explained, I don't see *any* ill effects
(other than *misdirected* [1] ads). So this "astonishing amount of data"
brings them exactly nothing.

> OTOH, if you end up in a legal dispute, you can be sure the adversary
> (some corporation) will also purchase that data in order to glean as
> much information to buttress their case (whether in defense or offense)
> against you.

[1] Like ads for products I already (recently) purchased and for which
the order, receipt, etc. are in my Gmail folders, which Google allegedly
scans. So they're waste their clients money and my time on superfluous
ads. Go figure!

Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
> On 2024-02-20 12:02, Oliver wrote:
> > On Tue, 20 Feb 2024 10:45:18 -0500, Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com>
> > wrote
> >> Data brokers maintain rather large matrices of data for any given key
> >> (name, e-mail address, etc.)
> >
> > Indeed, you are correct 'they' do a lot of mining of your personal data.
> >
> > "From ads to analytics, everyone's favorite 'privacy' company is doing
> > more with your data than you might think."
> > https://gizmodo.com/apple-iphone-ipad-privacy-problems-data-gathering-1849855092
>
> The degree to which Apple does collect data for use with partner co's is
> well identified in agreements you make with Apple to use their services.
> It is a pale shadow of what other co's do ... w/o disclosing anything at
> all.

No offense, but "what other co's do" is a rather meaningless,
unsubstantiated slur. Most companies I know of, also document in
agreements what they do and don't do. Often in painstakingly detail,
which is actually the real problem, because most people are not going to
read/understand it all and just tap/click 'Agree'.

> But do go on inflating the flat cushion as much as you can while
> ignoring the crush of the big cushions around you.

Ah, big cushions! Nice and fluffy!

On 2024-02-20 13:23, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
>> On 2024-02-20 04:57, Frank Slootweg wrote:
>>> badgolferman <REMOVETHISbadgolferman@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> [...]
>>>
>>>> Regardless of what iOS can or cannot do, the fact remains that Google
>>>> admits to using your private data, and even use it to make money. Does
>>>> Apple do that?
>>>
>>> Google uses "your private data" to present ads to *you*. That's how
>>> they "make money", no "admit" nor "even" about it.
>>>
>>> If they would use "your private data" for any other purpose - without
>>> your consent - they will be sued to smithereens, at least in the EU.
>>>
>>> As I've said many times before, contrary to all the FUD, urban legends,
>>> and other nonsense which is frequently spouted in these groups, I have
>>> yet to experience *any* ill effect - i.e. 'spam', privacy issues, etc. -
>>> from my use of Google products.
>>
>> When I browse Amazon for products, my girlfriend sees ads for some of
>> them on her laptop within 24 hours.
>
> Same here. Probably you two are 'behind' a NAT router and 'hence'
> share the same IP, which makes it hard for the ad generation to tell you
> two apart. So much for the famous 'fingerprinting'.

1) Yes, and 2) that's not what I was referring to by fingerprinting.
>
>>> And Google does not even *have* any of my "private data", other than
>>> the data which I provided, which is limited to my name, my/their e-mail
>>> address, mobile number and birthday. That's it.
>>
>> Sad that you shared your birthday.
>
> I don't *share* my birthday, my Google *Account* has my birthday.

So you "shared" your birthday with Google. Not smart. That data has
since been sold to dozens of data brokers and onward to thousands of others.

>
> The public info ('About me') is only my name and my Gmail address. All
> other information can be disabled/locked and is disabled/locked.

You don't know how it works. Every time an action you take on the
internet with various websites, a little bit more is associated with you.

The matrix proximate to you called Frank gets more data
The matric proximate to you called Slootweg gets more data
The matrix proximate to you called FS@someemail.com gets more data
The matrix proximate to you called your birthday gets more data

More matrices are created and eventually the statistics of one
correlates with the stats of another - they partially coalesce into
denser and denser matrices with a high probability of being related to
you. This is innocuous - until it isn't.

>> I use a fake birthday on all
>> websites (except where legally required to use my real birth date:
>> government tax sites, bank, driver's license and insurance).
>
> Same here.

Not what you said earlier.

>
>> Data brokers maintain rather large matrices of data for any given key
>> (name, e-mail address, etc.) And as they "fill the blanks" and
>> correlate and "fingerprint" your behaviour, the blank filling
>> accelerates and the matrices of data condense making their portrait of
>> you very accurate.
>>
>> They can't get everything, but they do get an astonishing amount of
>> data. Do they use it "maliciously"? Not so much other than to sell the
>> data to those wishing to target you to buy something.
>
> Yes, several posters keep talking about this alleged "astonishing
> amount of data", but as I explained, I don't see *any* ill effects
> (other than *misdirected* [1] ads). So this "astonishing amount of data"
> brings them exactly nothing.

You haven't detected it doing anything harmful. Yet, the fact that
bunches of corporations and data brokers know more about you than you
realize only has potential to harm you.

>
>> OTOH, if you end up in a legal dispute, you can be sure the adversary
>> (some corporation) will also purchase that data in order to glean as
>> much information to buttress their case (whether in defense or offense)
>> against you.
>
> [1] Like ads for products I already (recently) purchased and for which
> the order, receipt, etc. are in my Gmail folders, which Google allegedly
> scans. So they're waste their clients money and my time on superfluous
> ads. Go figure!

If you make an insurance claim, esp. for a medical issue while traveling
outside your country (or coverage), you can be sure the ins. co will
comb through the data looking for the slightest excuse to not pay a claim.

--
“Markets can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent.”
- John Maynard Keynes.

On 2024-02-20 13:34, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
>> On 2024-02-20 12:02, Oliver wrote:
>>> On Tue, 20 Feb 2024 10:45:18 -0500, Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com>
>>> wrote
>>>> Data brokers maintain rather large matrices of data for any given key
>>>> (name, e-mail address, etc.)
>>>
>>> Indeed, you are correct 'they' do a lot of mining of your personal data.
>>>
>>> "From ads to analytics, everyone's favorite 'privacy' company is doing
>>> more with your data than you might think."
>>> https://gizmodo.com/apple-iphone-ipad-privacy-problems-data-gathering-1849855092
>>
>> The degree to which Apple does collect data for use with partner co's is
>> well identified in agreements you make with Apple to use their services.
>> It is a pale shadow of what other co's do ... w/o disclosing anything at
>> all.
>
> No offense, but "what other co's do" is a rather meaningless,
> unsubstantiated slur. Most companies I know of, also document in
> agreements what they do and don't do. Often in painstakingly detail,
> which is actually the real problem, because most people are not going to
> read/understand it all and just tap/click 'Agree'.

You have no idea what is being collected about you by Google w/o them
telling you anything at all; and then the co's they sell your data to,
certainly do not come running to you to ask permission to what they want
with your data.

>
>> But do go on inflating the flat cushion as much as you can while
>> ignoring the crush of the big cushions around you.
>
> Ah, big cushions! Nice and fluffy!

Until inflated to max capacity when they are as hard as truck tires.

--
“Markets can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent.”
- John Maynard Keynes.

On 2024-02-20 19:23, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
>> On 2024-02-20 04:57, Frank Slootweg wrote:
>>> badgolferman <REMOVETHISbadgolferman@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> [...]

>> They can't get everything, but they do get an astonishing amount of
>> data. Do they use it "maliciously"? Not so much other than to sell the
>> data to those wishing to target you to buy something.
>
> Yes, several posters keep talking about this alleged "astonishing
> amount of data", but as I explained, I don't see *any* ill effects
> (other than *misdirected* [1] ads). So this "astonishing amount of data"
> brings them exactly nothing.
>
>> OTOH, if you end up in a legal dispute, you can be sure the adversary
>> (some corporation) will also purchase that data in order to glean as
>> much information to buttress their case (whether in defense or offense)
>> against you.
>
> [1] Like ads for products I already (recently) purchased and for which
> the order, receipt, etc. are in my Gmail folders, which Google allegedly
> scans. So they're waste their clients money and my time on superfluous
> ads. Go figure!

Same here. Waste of computer time on their part.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 2024-02-20 16:45, Alan Browne wrote:
> On 2024-02-20 04:57, Frank Slootweg wrote:
>> badgolferman <REMOVETHISbadgolferman@gmail.com> wrote:
>> [...]
>>
>>> Regardless of what iOS can or cannot do, the fact remains that Google
>>> admits to using your private data, and even use it to make money. Does
>>> Apple do that?
>>
>>    Google uses "your private data" to present ads to *you*. That's how
>> they "make money", no "admit" nor "even" about it.
>>
>>    If they would use "your private data" for any other purpose - without
>> your consent - they will be sued to smithereens, at least in the EU.
>>
>>    As I've said many times before, contrary to all the FUD, urban
>> legends,
>> and other nonsense which is frequently spouted in these groups, I have
>> yet to experience *any* ill effect - i.e. 'spam', privacy issues, etc. -
>> from my use of Google products.
>
> When I browse Amazon for products, my girlfriend sees ads for some of
> them on her laptop within 24 hours.

You share or shared something with them. Like, once you used her
computer to buy something at Amazon. You did something that, within the
terms and conditions, allowed them to link both machines or users.

Doesn't happen to me. I use a separate FF profile for searching at
Amazon, and yet another one for purchasing.

....

--
Cheers, Carlos.

Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:
> badgolferman <REMOVETHISbadgolferman@gmail.com> wrote:
> [...]
>
>> Regardless of what iOS can or cannot do, the fact remains that Google
>> admits to using your private data, and even use it to make money. Does
>> Apple do that?
>
> Google uses "your private data" to present ads to *you*. That's how
> they "make money", no "admit" nor "even" about it.
>
> If they would use "your private data" for any other purpose - without
> your consent - they will be sued to smithereens, at least in the EU.

They'd have to be caught first.

> As I've said many times before, contrary to all the FUD, urban legends,
> and other nonsense which is frequently spouted in these groups, I have
> yet to experience *any* ill effect - i.e. 'spam', privacy issues, etc. -
> from my use of Google products.

Of course you haven't suffered direct ill effects as that would hurt their
business model.

> And Google does not even *have* any of my "private data", other than
> the data which I provided, which is limited to my name, my/their e-mail
> address, mobile number and birthday. That's it.

You're naive if you think that's all the data google has on you.

They have a huge amount of behavioural data - unless you've been careful to
switch off ALL tracking - which is significantly more valuable than your
birthday.

Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
> On 2024-02-20 13:34, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> > Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
> >> On 2024-02-20 12:02, Oliver wrote:
> >>> On Tue, 20 Feb 2024 10:45:18 -0500, Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com>
> >>> wrote
> >>>> Data brokers maintain rather large matrices of data for any given key
> >>>> (name, e-mail address, etc.)
> >>>
> >>> Indeed, you are correct 'they' do a lot of mining of your personal data.
> >>>
> >>> "From ads to analytics, everyone's favorite 'privacy' company is doing
> >>> more with your data than you might think."
> >>> https://gizmodo.com/apple-iphone-ipad-privacy-problems-data-gathering-1849855092
> >>
> >> The degree to which Apple does collect data for use with partner co's is
> >> well identified in agreements you make with Apple to use their services.
> >> It is a pale shadow of what other co's do ... w/o disclosing anything at
> >> all.
> >
> > No offense, but "what other co's do" is a rather meaningless,
> > unsubstantiated slur. Most companies I know of, also document in
> > agreements what they do and don't do. Often in painstakingly detail,
> > which is actually the real problem, because most people are not going to
> > read/understand it all and just tap/click 'Agree'.
>
> You have no idea what is being collected about you by Google w/o them
> telling you anything at all; and then the co's they sell your data to,
> certainly do not come running to you to ask permission to what they want
> with your data.

Sorry to rain on your Apple-biased parade, but Google documents in
detail what they collect and how it's used by them and their partners.

And all of the functionality can be enabled/disabled in your account.
And if anything changes - changes, additions, deletions, etc. - you get
e-mail and notifications. I've disabled anything which even smells of
'personalization', hence my postive, privacy-safe experience.

As usual, it's people who are *not* using the products/services of
company Y (Can't say 'X", can I? :-)), who spout all kinds of FUD, urban
legends, etc. on how bad company Y is.

You have been / are on the receiving end of this as they spout similar
crap about Apple, so it would be nice if you showed the same
objectivity, which you expect of others.

[Cue AJL! :-)]

> >> But do go on inflating the flat cushion as much as you can while
> >> ignoring the crush of the big cushions around you.
> >
> > Ah, big cushions! Nice and fluffy!
>
> Until inflated to max capacity when they are as hard as truck tires.

Mine are nice and soft. Just enough air to be soft, but not too much
to become dangerous. But then I've a brain and am not afraid to use it.

Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
>> No offense, but "what other co's do" is a rather meaningless,
>> unsubstantiated slur. Most companies I know of, also document in
>> agreements what they do and don't do. Often in painstakingly detail,
>> which is actually the real problem, because most people are not going to
>> read/understand it all and just tap/click 'Agree'.
>
> You have no idea what is being collected about you by Google w/o them
> telling you anything at all; and then the co's they sell your data to,
> certainly do not come running to you to ask permission to what they want
> with your data.

His point was valid that the way you made up excuses for Apple's behavior
was to defiantly say that other companies do it too - which obviously means
you equated Apple's privacy transgressions exactly equally with Google's.

Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
> On 2024-02-20 13:23, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> > Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
> >> On 2024-02-20 04:57, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> >>> badgolferman <REMOVETHISbadgolferman@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> [...]
> >>>
> >>>> Regardless of what iOS can or cannot do, the fact remains that Google
> >>>> admits to using your private data, and even use it to make money. Does
> >>>> Apple do that?
> >>>
> >>> Google uses "your private data" to present ads to *you*. That's how
> >>> they "make money", no "admit" nor "even" about it.
> >>>
> >>> If they would use "your private data" for any other purpose - without
> >>> your consent - they will be sued to smithereens, at least in the EU.
> >>>
> >>> As I've said many times before, contrary to all the FUD, urban legends,
> >>> and other nonsense which is frequently spouted in these groups, I have
> >>> yet to experience *any* ill effect - i.e. 'spam', privacy issues, etc. -
> >>> from my use of Google products.
> >>
> >> When I browse Amazon for products, my girlfriend sees ads for some of
> >> them on her laptop within 24 hours.
> >
> > Same here. Probably you two are 'behind' a NAT router and 'hence'
> > share the same IP, which makes it hard for the ad generation to tell you
> > two apart. So much for the famous 'fingerprinting'.
>
> 1) Yes, and 2) that's not what I was referring to by fingerprinting.

I know. Here I am saying that *browser* fingerprinting apparently
isn't working. If it was, the ad should be able to target you, instead
of your girlfriend.

> >>> And Google does not even *have* any of my "private data", other than
> >>> the data which I provided, which is limited to my name, my/their e-mail
> >>> address, mobile number and birthday. That's it.
> >>
> >> Sad that you shared your birthday.
> >
> > I don't *share* my birthday, my Google *Account* has my birthday.
>
> So you "shared" your birthday with Google. Not smart. That data has
> since been sold to dozens of data brokers and onward to thousands of others.

Nope. Wrong continent. Google can't use - let alone sell - my account
data without my explicit approval, especially since I've specifically
turned off most sections of my public data. If they did, they would face
very hefty and repeated penalties. EU GDPR and all that.

> > The public info ('About me') is only my name and my Gmail address. All
> > other information can be disabled/locked and is disabled/locked.
>
> You don't know how it works. Every time an action you take on the
> internet with various websites, a little bit more is associated with you.
>
> The matrix proximate to you called Frank gets more data

Sorry to rain on your parade, but my browser does not reveal my name
(just verified again with GRC's Shields UP!!).

> The matric proximate to you called Slootweg gets more data
> The matrix proximate to you called FS@someemail.com gets more data
> The matrix proximate to you called your birthday gets more data

Same for these three.

*If* *I* provide any of this information, I do so in creating an
account, a commercial transaction, etc. and all these websites are bound
by the same EU laws with hefty penalties.

> More matrices are created and eventually the statistics of one
> correlates with the stats of another - they partially coalesce into
> denser and denser matrices with a high probability of being related to
> you. This is innocuous - until it isn't.

That's the FUD and urban legends which are spouted. I don't dispute
that these things can/will happen to not-so-smart people or/and outside
the EU.

But they don't happen to *me*. I do get *no* personalized ads, I get
*no* 'spam' (UCE/UBE), I get *no* unsollicited phone calls/SMS, etc..

> >> I use a fake birthday on all
> >> websites (except where legally required to use my real birth date:
> >> government tax sites, bank, driver's license and insurance).
> >
> > Same here.
>
> Not what you said earlier.

I said my real birthday is in my Google *Account*. You apparently
assumed that's public info, but it isn't.

On websites, I do the same as you (give no birthday or a fake one if
the website insists and only use my real birthday where legally
required).

> >> Data brokers maintain rather large matrices of data for any given key
> >> (name, e-mail address, etc.) And as they "fill the blanks" and
> >> correlate and "fingerprint" your behaviour, the blank filling
> >> accelerates and the matrices of data condense making their portrait of
> >> you very accurate.
> >>
> >> They can't get everything, but they do get an astonishing amount of
> >> data. Do they use it "maliciously"? Not so much other than to sell the
> >> data to those wishing to target you to buy something.
> >
> > Yes, several posters keep talking about this alleged "astonishing
> > amount of data", but as I explained, I don't see *any* ill effects
> > (other than *misdirected* [1] ads). So this "astonishing amount of data"
> > brings them exactly nothing.
>
> You haven't detected it doing anything harmful. Yet, the fact that
> bunches of corporations and data brokers know more about you than you
> realize only has potential to harm you.

Sorry, but this is way too much FUD, urban legend and conspiracy
theory for my taste. There's no substance whatsoever. Yes, there are
dangers from being on the net, but *this* 'danger' for *me*, is much
much lower on the to-worry-about scale than most - if not all- others.

> >> OTOH, if you end up in a legal dispute, you can be sure the adversary
> >> (some corporation) will also purchase that data in order to glean as
> >> much information to buttress their case (whether in defense or offense)
> >> against you.
> >
> > [1] Like ads for products I already (recently) purchased and for which
> > the order, receipt, etc. are in my Gmail folders, which Google allegedly
> > scans. So they're waste their clients money and my time on superfluous
> > ads. Go figure!
>
> If you make an insurance claim, esp. for a medical issue while traveling
> outside your country (or coverage), you can be sure the ins. co will
> comb through the data looking for the slightest excuse to not pay a claim.

Guess I was lucky then when our EUR 50K claim - the largest parts for
the medical bills - went through without a hitch!

On Tue, 20 Feb 2024 14:16:20 -0500, Alan Browne wrote:

> You don't know how it works. Every time an action you take on the
> internet with various websites, a little bit more is associated with you.

You're correct that Apple knows everything you do with your unique Apple ID
as was recently described in this information technology privacy report.

Your iOS app may still be covertly tracking you, despite what Apple says
https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2022/04/a-year-after-apple-enforces-app-tracking-policy-covert-ios-tracking-remains/

The paper warned that despite Apple's insincere promise of more
transparency, ATT might gives its users a false sense of security.

"The researchers identified nine iOS apps that used server-side code to
generate a mutual user identifier that a subsidiary of the Chinese tech
company Alibaba can use for cross-app tracking. "The sharing of device
information for purposes of fingerprinting would be in violation of Apple's
policies, which do not allow developers to 'derive data from a device for
the purpose of uniquely identifying it,'" the researchers wrote.

The researchers also said that Apple isn't required to follow the policy in
many cases, making it possible for Apple to further add to the stockpile of
data it collects. They noted that Apple also exempts tracking for purposes
of "obtaining information on a consumer's creditworthiness for the specific
purpose of making a credit determination."

Representatives from Apple declined to comment. Alibaba representatives
didn't immediately respond to an email seeking comment.

Based on a comparison of 1,685 apps published before and after ATT went
into effect, the number of tracking libraries they used remained roughly
the same. The most widely used libraries-including Apple's SKAdNetwork,
Google Firebase Analytics, and Google Crashlytics-didn't change. Almost a
quarter of the studied apps claimed that they didn't collect any user data,
but the majority of them-80 percent-contained at least one tracker library.

On average, the research found, apps that claimed they didn't collect user
data nonetheless contained 1.8 tracking libraries and contacted 2.5
tracking companies. Of apps that used SKAdNetwork, Google Firebase
Analytics, and Google Crashlytics, more than half failed to disclose having
access to user data. The Facebook SDK fared slightly better with about a 47
percent failure rate."

Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote:
> Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:
> > badgolferman <REMOVETHISbadgolferman@gmail.com> wrote:
> > [...]
> >
> >> Regardless of what iOS can or cannot do, the fact remains that Google
> >> admits to using your private data, and even use it to make money. Does
> >> Apple do that?
> >
> > Google uses "your private data" to present ads to *you*. That's how
> > they "make money", no "admit" nor "even" about it.
> >
> > If they would use "your private data" for any other purpose - without
> > your consent - they will be sued to smithereens, at least in the EU.
>
> They'd have to be caught first.

Of course, but the FUD crowd implies it's done all the time. If so,
they *will* get caught.

> > As I've said many times before, contrary to all the FUD, urban legends,
> > and other nonsense which is frequently spouted in these groups, I have
> > yet to experience *any* ill effect - i.e. 'spam', privacy issues, etc. -
> > from my use of Google products.
>
> Of course you haven't suffered direct ill effects as that would hurt their
> business model.

So what *is* the worry/harm/<whatever>. "Bad things can and will
happen to you! News at eleven."?

> > And Google does not even *have* any of my "private data", other than
> > the data which I provided, which is limited to my name, my/their e-mail
> > address, mobile number and birthday. That's it.
>
> You're naive if you think that's all the data google has on you.

Yes, they have more data on me, but the question is, is that "private
data" and do they use it against my wishes/interests or/and do they
sell it to others? There's no actual proof of any of this, only
innuendo.

> They have a huge amount of behavioural data - unless you've been careful to
> switch off ALL tracking - which is significantly more valuable than your
> birthday.

Yes, I've been switching off all unwanted tracking, in my Google
Account, in the Google/Samsung parts of my phone, in the Microsoft parts
of my Windows laptop, etc..

On Tue, 20 Feb 2024 20:05:22 -0000 (UTC), Chris wrote:

> They have a huge amount of behavioural data - unless you've been careful to
> switch off ALL tracking - which is significantly more valuable than your
> birthday.

You are certainly correct that Apple has a huge amount of behavioural data
on you, specifically because everything you do is associated with a unique
Apple ID, not only on a single device, but often on all your Apple devices.

What Apple Knows About You by Default
https://www.wired.com/story/apple-privacy-data-collection/
Apple has always gathered a lot of data about you.

"When you start using Apple's products, it collects information about you.
This can include data needed to sign up to its services or buy products,
such as your name, email address, the Apple ID that you create, and your
payment details."

Apple says contextual ads within its apps are shown based on your device
information (such as keyboard language and mobile carrier), your location
data if you have shared it with the apps, the searches you make in the App
Store, or the "type of story" you read in News and Stocks apps.

The company's documentation also says that App Store "browsing activity" is
also used to help determine ads that can be shown to you. "App Store
browsing activity includes the content and apps you tap and view while
browsing the App Store. This information is aggregated across users so that
it does not identify you," the company's documents say.

This data has the potential to be extensive. "Everything is monitored and
sent to Apple almost in real time," says Tommy Mysk, an app developer and
security researcher who runs the software company Mysk with fellow
developer Talal Haj Bakry. In November, the Mysk researchers demonstrated
how taps on the screen were logged when using the App Store. Their
follow-up research demonstrated that analytics data could be used to
identify people.

"The App Store is special because there's no other option," Mysk says.
"There is no other choice. If you don't like the privacy statement of Apple
Music, fine. You can use Spotify-there are alternatives. To the App Store,
there is nothing."

Apple's privacy policy also says it can collect data on how you use your
devices. This can include the apps you use, searches within Apple's apps,
such as the App Store, and analytics and other personal data. Other
information Apple can collect about you can include your location
information, health information, and fitness information.

Apple has always collected reams of data about its customers but Apple's
increasing push into services & advertising opens the door for even more
potential data collection.

The data Apple collects about you is outlined in its privacy policy, which
runs to about 4,000 words. Apple also has multiple privacy guides for its
individual products and apps, which more specifically outline how they
collect and use data. There are around 80 of these privacy outlines,
ranging from Apple's advertising and research programs to Apple Books and
sports. The guides are linked within apps and are online. While some
information is repeated, in total they hit around 70,000 words which is
around a novel's worth of legalese.

Alan wrote on Mon, 19 Feb 2024 14:22:00 -0800 :

>> Don't make me look it up if you don't believe it - first look it up.
>> Then come back and tell me Apple didn't get sued for lying about privacy.
>
> Why don't you show your support.

Idiot.

The user badgolferman was smart enough to have looked it up before even
thinking of denying it - but you appear to be too stupid to look it up.

https://9to5mac.com/2023/01/09/apple-privacy-tracking-lawsuit/
Apple is facing another class action lawsuit over its practice of
collecting and sending analytics data from iPhone users,
regardless of whether or not the user gave consent.

Since you are an idiot, I realize you won't click on the link before
denying everything contained in it so I will not be reading nor responding
to more of your idiocy.

The user badgolferman was a lot smarter than you are as he apparently
looked it up since it's extremely well published information world wide.

Using <news:ur38nk.ru4.1@ID-201911.user.individual.net>, Frank Slootweg
wrote:

> I've been switching off all unwanted tracking, in my Google
> Account, in the Google/Samsung parts of my phone, in the Microsoft parts
> of my Windows laptop, etc..

I wonder if the most Apple users are using Google Maps on their iPhones?

On 2024-02-20 13:32, Andrew wrote:
> Alan wrote on Mon, 19 Feb 2024 14:22:00 -0800 :
>
>>> Don't make me look it up if you don't believe it - first look it up.
>>> Then come back and tell me Apple didn't get sued for lying about privacy.
>>
>> Why don't you show your support.
>
> Idiot.

I know you are but what am I?

(Yes, child: that is the level of discourse you have chosen, so I choose
to respond in kind)>

>
> The user badgolferman was smart enough to have looked it up before even
> thinking of denying it - but you appear to be too stupid to look it up.
>
> https://9to5mac.com/2023/01/09/apple-privacy-tracking-lawsuit/
> Apple is facing another class action lawsuit over its practice of
> collecting and sending analytics data from iPhone users,
> regardless of whether or not the user gave consent.

You appear too stupid to understand that allegations are not proof.

>
> Since you are an idiot, I realize you won't click on the link before
> denying everything contained in it so I will not be reading nor responding
> to more of your idiocy.
>
> The user badgolferman was a lot smarter than you are as he apparently
> looked it up since it's extremely well published information world wide.

"What ultimately comes of these lawsuits remains to be seen."

Apparently, your reading comprehension level wasn't sufficient to
understand that very simple sentence.