The Garmin Edge 830 has a few things you must remember about it. Firstly the common charging cable that comes with it is incompatible with others that appear the same. Although they allow charging they do not have the data lines necessary to connect the 830 to a home computer. This isn't a problem IF you have the 830 set up to WiFi data through your home network but the standard Garmin Express seems to block access to your WiFi unless you know your password. These days most people don't commonly memorize their passwords and use wildly different passwords since Windows normally memorizes them for you and you don't want one password for something jeopardizing that of some more important access such as your bank account or whatever.

Playing around with Garmin Express I finally got it to register my new 830 after a very painful long production that was based mostly on the fact that 1. You need the updated software package on your computer and you phone needs to have Garmin Connect app on it and you have to follow the procedures. This brought the 830 into the fold.

But it still wouldn't change display windows as it showed in the video I watched. I suppose that they assumed that you were already in setup and the setup window of course looks identical to the normal data window. Once that was straighten out I got the data windows setup the way I wanted them. I will still have to test it all after a ride but it is supposed to download from the 830 directly into the computer via the BlueTooth link and you would use the cable only for charging.

This all would have been a lot less painful if they included a manual or at least a paper with the website on it where the on-line manual is located. Being a bit old fashion I don't think it is fashionable to look for everything via Google and then sort through all of the entries to discover the one which will fill your needs and which always turns out to be the wrong one. If you hit the one of a million entries that says "Garmin Connect" it starts up a Garmin connect elsewhere that runs on your home computer. Maybe some people find that helpful because they don't have enough storage space. But I don't much care for everyone and his brother knowing what I am doing at any time.

In any case, the 830 is now registered and setup.

Here is a question in case any of you have an answer: The bottom of the 830 inside the twist connector has 4 electrical contacts. Does anyone know what this is for? Is there an accessory charger so that you simply put your 830 into a holder to charge rather than fighting that cable?

On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 8:25:22 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> The Garmin Edge 830 has a few things you must remember about it. Firstly the common charging cable that comes with it is incompatible with others that appear the same. Although they allow charging they do not have the data lines necessary to connect the 830 to a home computer. This isn't a problem IF you have the 830 set up to WiFi data through your home network but the standard Garmin Express seems to block access to your WiFi unless you know your password. These days most people don't commonly memorize their passwords and use wildly different passwords since Windows normally memorizes them for you and you don't want one password for something jeopardizing that of some more important access such as your bank account or whatever.
>
> Playing around with Garmin Express I finally got it to register my new 830 after a very painful long production that was based mostly on the fact that 1. You need the updated software package on your computer and you phone needs to have Garmin Connect app on it and you have to follow the procedures. This brought the 830 into the fold.
>
> But it still wouldn't change display windows as it showed in the video I watched. I suppose that they assumed that you were already in setup and the setup window of course looks identical to the normal data window. Once that was straighten out I got the data windows setup the way I wanted them. I will still have to test it all after a ride but it is supposed to download from the 830 directly into the computer via the BlueTooth link and you would use the cable only for charging.
>
> This all would have been a lot less painful if they included a manual or at least a paper with the website on it where the on-line manual is located.. Being a bit old fashion I don't think it is fashionable to look for everything via Google and then sort through all of the entries to discover the one which will fill your needs and which always turns out to be the wrong one. If you hit the one of a million entries that says "Garmin Connect" it starts up a Garmin connect elsewhere that runs on your home computer. Maybe some people find that helpful because they don't have enough storage space. But I don't much care for everyone and his brother knowing what I am doing at any time.
>
> In any case, the 830 is now registered and setup.
>
> Here is a question in case any of you have an answer: The bottom of the 830 inside the twist connector has 4 electrical contacts. Does anyone know what this is for? Is there an accessory charger so that you simply put your 830 into a holder to charge rather than fighting that cable?

The contacts are for an extra battery pack you can use with the 830 to extend the battery life. Can be important for tpuring when you don’t be able to charge your 830 every day. Garmins battery pack comes with a special out front mount. You put the 830 on top of the mount and the battery pack below and the necessary contacts are connected.

Lou

On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 11:53:40 -0800 (PST),
Lou Holtman <lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 8:25:22 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:

> > The Garmin Edge 830 has a few things you must remember about
> > it. Firstly the common charging cable that comes with it is
> > incompatible with others that appear the same. Although they
> > allow charging they do not have the data lines necessary to
> > connect the 830 to a home computer.

Yep. But I think the cables that came with your earlier Garmin
Edge devices would also work with the 830.

> > ...This isn't a problem IF you have the 830 set up to WiFi
> > data through your home network but the standard Garmin Express
> > seems to block access to your WiFi unless you know your
> > password. These days most people don't commonly memorize their
> > passwords and use wildly different passwords since Windows
> > normally memorizes them for you and you don't want one
> > password for something jeopardizing that of some more
> > important access such as your bank account or whatever.
> >
> > Playing around with Garmin Express I finally got it to
> > register my new 830 after a very painful long production that
> > was based mostly on the fact that 1. You need the updated
> > software package on your computer and you phone needs to have
> > Garmin Connect app on it and you have to follow the
> > procedures. This brought the 830 into the fold.

The Garmin software and connectivity systems leave a great deal to
be desired. I've always found pairing them to the phone to be
incredibly painful. It's very persnickety about the order it's
done.

> > In any case, the 830 is now registered and setup.

Fantastic, congratulations!

> > Here is a question in case any of you have an answer: The
> > bottom of the 830 inside the twist connector has 4 electrical
> > contacts. Does anyone know what this is for? Is there an
> > accessory charger so that you simply put your 830 into a
> > holder to charge rather than fighting that cable?
>
> The contacts are for an extra battery pack you can use with the
> 830 to extend the battery life. Can be important for tpuring
> when you don???t be able to charge your 830 every day. Garmins
> battery pack comes with a special out front mount. You put the
> 830 on top of the mount and the battery pack below and the
> necessary contacts are connected.

Ah, very interesting. I don't think the 820 has this feature. My
unit is maybe five years old now, and its battery is losing
capacity. A two-hour ride takes it down near 50%, not good.
Maybe getting to be time for a replacement.

--
Ted Heise <theise@panix.com> West Lafayette, IN, USA

On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 11:53:43 AM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 8:25:22 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > The Garmin Edge 830 has a few things you must remember about it. Firstly the common charging cable that comes with it is incompatible with others that appear the same. Although they allow charging they do not have the data lines necessary to connect the 830 to a home computer. This isn't a problem IF you have the 830 set up to WiFi data through your home network but the standard Garmin Express seems to block access to your WiFi unless you know your password. These days most people don't commonly memorize their passwords and use wildly different passwords since Windows normally memorizes them for you and you don't want one password for something jeopardizing that of some more important access such as your bank account or whatever.
> >
> > Playing around with Garmin Express I finally got it to register my new 830 after a very painful long production that was based mostly on the fact that 1. You need the updated software package on your computer and you phone needs to have Garmin Connect app on it and you have to follow the procedures. This brought the 830 into the fold.
> >
> > But it still wouldn't change display windows as it showed in the video I watched. I suppose that they assumed that you were already in setup and the setup window of course looks identical to the normal data window. Once that was straighten out I got the data windows setup the way I wanted them. I will still have to test it all after a ride but it is supposed to download from the 830 directly into the computer via the BlueTooth link and you would use the cable only for charging.
> >
> > This all would have been a lot less painful if they included a manual or at least a paper with the website on it where the on-line manual is located. Being a bit old fashion I don't think it is fashionable to look for everything via Google and then sort through all of the entries to discover the one which will fill your needs and which always turns out to be the wrong one. If you hit the one of a million entries that says "Garmin Connect" it starts up a Garmin connect elsewhere that runs on your home computer. Maybe some people find that helpful because they don't have enough storage space.. But I don't much care for everyone and his brother knowing what I am doing at any time.
> >
> > In any case, the 830 is now registered and setup.
> >
> > Here is a question in case any of you have an answer: The bottom of the 830 inside the twist connector has 4 electrical contacts. Does anyone know what this is for? Is there an accessory charger so that you simply put your 830 into a holder to charge rather than fighting that cable?
> The contacts are for an extra battery pack you can use with the 830 to extend the battery life. Can be important for tpuring when you don’t be able to charge your 830 every day. Garmins battery pack comes with a special out front mount. You put the 830 on top of the mount and the battery pack below and the necessary contacts are connected.

Thanks Lou, since most of my rides are no longer than overnighters, the battery life isn't a problem.

On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 10:17:10 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 11:53:43 AM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 8:25:22 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > The Garmin Edge 830 has a few things you must remember about it. Firstly the common charging cable that comes with it is incompatible with others that appear the same. Although they allow charging they do not have the data lines necessary to connect the 830 to a home computer. This isn't a problem IF you have the 830 set up to WiFi data through your home network but the standard Garmin Express seems to block access to your WiFi unless you know your password. These days most people don't commonly memorize their passwords and use wildly different passwords since Windows normally memorizes them for you and you don't want one password for something jeopardizing that of some more important access such as your bank account or whatever.
> > >
> > > Playing around with Garmin Express I finally got it to register my new 830 after a very painful long production that was based mostly on the fact that 1. You need the updated software package on your computer and you phone needs to have Garmin Connect app on it and you have to follow the procedures. This brought the 830 into the fold.
> > >
> > > But it still wouldn't change display windows as it showed in the video I watched. I suppose that they assumed that you were already in setup and the setup window of course looks identical to the normal data window. Once that was straighten out I got the data windows setup the way I wanted them.. I will still have to test it all after a ride but it is supposed to download from the 830 directly into the computer via the BlueTooth link and you would use the cable only for charging.
> > >
> > > This all would have been a lot less painful if they included a manual or at least a paper with the website on it where the on-line manual is located. Being a bit old fashion I don't think it is fashionable to look for everything via Google and then sort through all of the entries to discover the one which will fill your needs and which always turns out to be the wrong one. If you hit the one of a million entries that says "Garmin Connect" it starts up a Garmin connect elsewhere that runs on your home computer. Maybe some people find that helpful because they don't have enough storage space. But I don't much care for everyone and his brother knowing what I am doing at any time.
> > >
> > > In any case, the 830 is now registered and setup.
> > >
> > > Here is a question in case any of you have an answer: The bottom of the 830 inside the twist connector has 4 electrical contacts. Does anyone know what this is for? Is there an accessory charger so that you simply put your 830 into a holder to charge rather than fighting that cable?
> > The contacts are for an extra battery pack you can use with the 830 to extend the battery life. Can be important for tpuring when you don’t be able to charge your 830 every day. Garmins battery pack comes with a special out front mount. You put the 830 on top of the mount and the battery pack below and the necessary contacts are connected.
> Thanks Lou, since most of my rides are no longer than overnighters, the battery life isn't a problem.

The battery pack is also ridiculously expensive. My brother has a Edge 830 and does 4 hours rides most of the time and he says the battery life is about 3-4 rides, so around 15 hours.

Lou

On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 1:57:13 PM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 10:17:10 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 11:53:43 AM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 8:25:22 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > The Garmin Edge 830 has a few things you must remember about it. Firstly the common charging cable that comes with it is incompatible with others that appear the same. Although they allow charging they do not have the data lines necessary to connect the 830 to a home computer. This isn't a problem IF you have the 830 set up to WiFi data through your home network but the standard Garmin Express seems to block access to your WiFi unless you know your password. These days most people don't commonly memorize their passwords and use wildly different passwords since Windows normally memorizes them for you and you don't want one password for something jeopardizing that of some more important access such as your bank account or whatever.
> > > >
> > > > Playing around with Garmin Express I finally got it to register my new 830 after a very painful long production that was based mostly on the fact that 1. You need the updated software package on your computer and you phone needs to have Garmin Connect app on it and you have to follow the procedures. This brought the 830 into the fold.
> > > >
> > > > But it still wouldn't change display windows as it showed in the video I watched. I suppose that they assumed that you were already in setup and the setup window of course looks identical to the normal data window. Once that was straighten out I got the data windows setup the way I wanted them. I will still have to test it all after a ride but it is supposed to download from the 830 directly into the computer via the BlueTooth link and you would use the cable only for charging.
> > > >
> > > > This all would have been a lot less painful if they included a manual or at least a paper with the website on it where the on-line manual is located. Being a bit old fashion I don't think it is fashionable to look for everything via Google and then sort through all of the entries to discover the one which will fill your needs and which always turns out to be the wrong one. If you hit the one of a million entries that says "Garmin Connect" it starts up a Garmin connect elsewhere that runs on your home computer. Maybe some people find that helpful because they don't have enough storage space. But I don't much care for everyone and his brother knowing what I am doing at any time.
> > > >
> > > > In any case, the 830 is now registered and setup.
> > > >
> > > > Here is a question in case any of you have an answer: The bottom of the 830 inside the twist connector has 4 electrical contacts. Does anyone know what this is for? Is there an accessory charger so that you simply put your 830 into a holder to charge rather than fighting that cable?
> > > The contacts are for an extra battery pack you can use with the 830 to extend the battery life. Can be important for tpuring when you don’t be able to charge your 830 every day. Garmins battery pack comes with a special out front mount. You put the 830 on top of the mount and the battery pack below and the necessary contacts are connected.
> > Thanks Lou, since most of my rides are no longer than overnighters, the battery life isn't a problem.
> The battery pack is also ridiculously expensive. My brother has a Edge 830 and does 4 hours rides most of the time and he says the battery life is about 3-4 rides, so around 15 hours.

Now that everything is set up properly, the 830 is so sensitive that it shows FEET I walk around the house. I was going to take it out on a ride but will leave that until tomorrow.

Tom Kunich <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
> The Garmin Edge 830 has a few things you must remember about it. Firstly
> the common charging cable that comes with it is incompatible with others
> that appear the same. Although they allow charging they do not have the
> data lines necessary to connect the 830 to a home computer. This isn't a
> problem IF you have the 830 set up to WiFi data through your home network
> but the standard Garmin Express seems to block access to your WiFi unless
> you know your password. These days most people don't commonly memorize
> their passwords and use wildly different passwords since Windows normally
> memorizes them for you and you don't want one password for something
> jeopardizing that of some more important access such as your bank account or whatever.
>
Don’t need to give it the WiFi password, I have for places I stay often as
it’s generally faster. And doesn’t need the phone close by.

Yes it will need a usb cable that supports Data as well.

> Playing around with Garmin Express I finally got it to register my new
> 830 after a very painful long production that was based mostly on the
> fact that 1. You need the updated software package on your computer and
> you phone needs to have Garmin Connect app on it and you have to follow
> the procedures. This brought the 830 into the fold.

don’t need Garmin Express (desktop program) bar map updates. Which
annoyingly don’t come down via Connect (phone app)

Many ways it’s easier via the phone than the computer, I already had lot of
stuff set up from the Garmin 520 which I have, and is sitting dead in a
draw…

Ie I powered it up connected to the phone and as it had my account anyway
it just imported that.

I did set up two profiles as MTB/Gravel are different uses and so on.
>
> But it still wouldn't change display windows as it showed in the video I
> watched. I suppose that they assumed that you were already in setup and
> the setup window of course looks identical to the normal data window.
> Once that was straighten out I got the data windows setup the way I
> wanted them. I will still have to test it all after a ride but it is
> supposed to download from the 830 directly into the computer via the
> BlueTooth link and you would use the cable only for charging.
>
> This all would have been a lot less painful if they included a manual or
> at least a paper with the website on it where the on-line manual is
> located. Being a bit old fashion I don't think it is fashionable to look
> for everything via Google and then sort through all of the entries to
> discover the one which will fill your needs and which always turns out to
> be the wrong one. If you hit the one of a million entries that says
> "Garmin Connect" it starts up a Garmin connect elsewhere that runs on
> your home computer. Maybe some people find that helpful because they
> don't have enough storage space. But I don't much care for everyone and
> his brother knowing what I am doing at any time.

There is a quick start guide in the box, and link in that for the manual
proper if one wants, I do have the manual as well they are complicated bits
of kit.

Garmin are not alone in not providing paper manuals anymore, to be honest I
just powered on, let phone and it talk, and used the Manual for some set up
stuff much later after a few rides etc.
>
> In any case, the 830 is now registered and setup.
>
> Here is a question in case any of you have an answer: The bottom of the
> 830 inside the twist connector has 4 electrical contacts. Does anyone
> know what this is for? Is there an accessory charger so that you simply
> put your 830 into a holder to charge rather than fighting that cable?
>
Been answered but battery pack, which seems somewhat redundant since in my
experience only uses 15/20% for most rides.

But I guess some folks will ride for days on end?

Roger Merriman

On Tuesday, March 8, 2022 at 7:42:49 AM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > The Garmin Edge 830 has a few things you must remember about it. Firstly
> > the common charging cable that comes with it is incompatible with others
> > that appear the same. Although they allow charging they do not have the
> > data lines necessary to connect the 830 to a home computer. This isn't a
> > problem IF you have the 830 set up to WiFi data through your home network
> > but the standard Garmin Express seems to block access to your WiFi unless
> > you know your password. These days most people don't commonly memorize
> > their passwords and use wildly different passwords since Windows normally
> > memorizes them for you and you don't want one password for something
> > jeopardizing that of some more important access such as your bank account or whatever.
> >
> Don’t need to give it the WiFi password, I have for places I stay often as
> it’s generally faster. And doesn’t need the phone close by.
>
> Yes it will need a usb cable that supports Data as well.
> > Playing around with Garmin Express I finally got it to register my new
> > 830 after a very painful long production that was based mostly on the
> > fact that 1. You need the updated software package on your computer and
> > you phone needs to have Garmin Connect app on it and you have to follow
> > the procedures. This brought the 830 into the fold.
> don’t need Garmin Express (desktop program) bar map updates. Which
> annoyingly don’t come down via Connect (phone app)
>
> Many ways it’s easier via the phone than the computer, I already had lot of
> stuff set up from the Garmin 520 which I have, and is sitting dead in a
> draw…
>
> Ie I powered it up connected to the phone and as it had my account anyway
> it just imported that.
>
> I did set up two profiles as MTB/Gravel are different uses and so on.
> >
> > But it still wouldn't change display windows as it showed in the video I
> > watched. I suppose that they assumed that you were already in setup and
> > the setup window of course looks identical to the normal data window.
> > Once that was straighten out I got the data windows setup the way I
> > wanted them. I will still have to test it all after a ride but it is
> > supposed to download from the 830 directly into the computer via the
> > BlueTooth link and you would use the cable only for charging.
> >
> > This all would have been a lot less painful if they included a manual or
> > at least a paper with the website on it where the on-line manual is
> > located. Being a bit old fashion I don't think it is fashionable to look
> > for everything via Google and then sort through all of the entries to
> > discover the one which will fill your needs and which always turns out to
> > be the wrong one. If you hit the one of a million entries that says
> > "Garmin Connect" it starts up a Garmin connect elsewhere that runs on
> > your home computer. Maybe some people find that helpful because they
> > don't have enough storage space. But I don't much care for everyone and
> > his brother knowing what I am doing at any time.
> There is a quick start guide in the box, and link in that for the manual
> proper if one wants, I do have the manual as well they are complicated bits
> of kit.
>
> Garmin are not alone in not providing paper manuals anymore, to be honest I
> just powered on, let phone and it talk, and used the Manual for some set up
> stuff much later after a few rides etc.
> >
> > In any case, the 830 is now registered and setup.
> >
> > Here is a question in case any of you have an answer: The bottom of the
> > 830 inside the twist connector has 4 electrical contacts. Does anyone
> > know what this is for? Is there an accessory charger so that you simply
> > put your 830 into a holder to charge rather than fighting that cable?
> >
> Been answered but battery pack, which seems somewhat redundant since in my
> experience only uses 15/20% for most rides.
>
> But I guess some folks will ride for days on end?

I suppose that it would be good for tourists that ride into areas where an electrical connection isn't available. Though I've toured a bit I was never in that situation where a fast charger wouldn't put everything to right with a line of people waiting.

On Tuesday, March 8, 2022 at 7:47:11 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 8, 2022 at 7:42:49 AM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
> > Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > The Garmin Edge 830 has a few things you must remember about it. Firstly
> > > the common charging cable that comes with it is incompatible with others
> > > that appear the same. Although they allow charging they do not have the
> > > data lines necessary to connect the 830 to a home computer. This isn't a
> > > problem IF you have the 830 set up to WiFi data through your home network
> > > but the standard Garmin Express seems to block access to your WiFi unless
> > > you know your password. These days most people don't commonly memorize
> > > their passwords and use wildly different passwords since Windows normally
> > > memorizes them for you and you don't want one password for something
> > > jeopardizing that of some more important access such as your bank account or whatever.
> > >
> > Don’t need to give it the WiFi password, I have for places I stay often as
> > it’s generally faster. And doesn’t need the phone close by.
> >
> > Yes it will need a usb cable that supports Data as well.
> > > Playing around with Garmin Express I finally got it to register my new
> > > 830 after a very painful long production that was based mostly on the
> > > fact that 1. You need the updated software package on your computer and
> > > you phone needs to have Garmin Connect app on it and you have to follow
> > > the procedures. This brought the 830 into the fold.
> > don’t need Garmin Express (desktop program) bar map updates. Which
> > annoyingly don’t come down via Connect (phone app)
> >
> > Many ways it’s easier via the phone than the computer, I already had lot of
> > stuff set up from the Garmin 520 which I have, and is sitting dead in a
> > draw…
> >
> > Ie I powered it up connected to the phone and as it had my account anyway
> > it just imported that.
> >
> > I did set up two profiles as MTB/Gravel are different uses and so on.
> > >
> > > But it still wouldn't change display windows as it showed in the video I
> > > watched. I suppose that they assumed that you were already in setup and
> > > the setup window of course looks identical to the normal data window.
> > > Once that was straighten out I got the data windows setup the way I
> > > wanted them. I will still have to test it all after a ride but it is
> > > supposed to download from the 830 directly into the computer via the
> > > BlueTooth link and you would use the cable only for charging.
> > >
> > > This all would have been a lot less painful if they included a manual or
> > > at least a paper with the website on it where the on-line manual is
> > > located. Being a bit old fashion I don't think it is fashionable to look
> > > for everything via Google and then sort through all of the entries to
> > > discover the one which will fill your needs and which always turns out to
> > > be the wrong one. If you hit the one of a million entries that says
> > > "Garmin Connect" it starts up a Garmin connect elsewhere that runs on
> > > your home computer. Maybe some people find that helpful because they
> > > don't have enough storage space. But I don't much care for everyone and
> > > his brother knowing what I am doing at any time.
> > There is a quick start guide in the box, and link in that for the manual
> > proper if one wants, I do have the manual as well they are complicated bits
> > of kit.
> >
> > Garmin are not alone in not providing paper manuals anymore, to be honest I
> > just powered on, let phone and it talk, and used the Manual for some set up
> > stuff much later after a few rides etc.
> > >
> > > In any case, the 830 is now registered and setup.
> > >
> > > Here is a question in case any of you have an answer: The bottom of the
> > > 830 inside the twist connector has 4 electrical contacts. Does anyone
> > > know what this is for? Is there an accessory charger so that you simply
> > > put your 830 into a holder to charge rather than fighting that cable?
> > >
> > Been answered but battery pack, which seems somewhat redundant since in my
> > experience only uses 15/20% for most rides.
> >
> > But I guess some folks will ride for days on end?
> I suppose that it would be good for tourists that ride into areas where an electrical connection isn't available. Though I've toured a bit I was never in that situation where a fast charger wouldn't put everything to right with a line of people waiting.

Yesterday I intended to do a climbing ride and road out to Niles and had a muffin and coffee before attempting the rather dangerous road into Niles Canyon to Palomares Rd. (The rather odd translation from Spanish means that there are doves along side of the road - can't say that I remember ever seeing doves on that 1,000 ft. climb or descent) While sitting waiting for the light to change so that I could cross Mission Blvd. I could see a sign that said that Palomares was closed. Now, that was highly unlikely but rather than ride that horrible canyon road to find that it was closed, I took a long route back along the flats. So I put in 42 miles at my normal average on the flats of 11.5 mph. Since I was on the Airborne titanium bike which is more at home on the flats than in the hills, that was just as well. Thursday I will pass 900 miles for the year if it doesn't rain and be working on crossing 2,000 meters of climbing for the year. I expect to get in 125,000 ft or 39,000 meters of climbing for the year. The Garmin 830 worked flawlessly which leads me to wonder how it could ever work at all in the initial 4.14 miles without being set up properly.

On Wednesday, March 9, 2022 at 10:25:57 AM UTC-6, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 8, 2022 at 7:47:11 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Tuesday, March 8, 2022 at 7:42:49 AM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
> > > Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > The Garmin Edge 830 has a few things you must remember about it. Firstly
> > > > the common charging cable that comes with it is incompatible with others
> > > > that appear the same. Although they allow charging they do not have the
> > > > data lines necessary to connect the 830 to a home computer. This isn't a
> > > > problem IF you have the 830 set up to WiFi data through your home network
> > > > but the standard Garmin Express seems to block access to your WiFi unless
> > > > you know your password. These days most people don't commonly memorize
> > > > their passwords and use wildly different passwords since Windows normally
> > > > memorizes them for you and you don't want one password for something
> > > > jeopardizing that of some more important access such as your bank account or whatever.
> > > >
> > > Don’t need to give it the WiFi password, I have for places I stay often as
> > > it’s generally faster. And doesn’t need the phone close by.
> > >
> > > Yes it will need a usb cable that supports Data as well.
> > > > Playing around with Garmin Express I finally got it to register my new
> > > > 830 after a very painful long production that was based mostly on the
> > > > fact that 1. You need the updated software package on your computer and
> > > > you phone needs to have Garmin Connect app on it and you have to follow
> > > > the procedures. This brought the 830 into the fold.
> > > don’t need Garmin Express (desktop program) bar map updates. Which
> > > annoyingly don’t come down via Connect (phone app)
> > >
> > > Many ways it’s easier via the phone than the computer, I already had lot of
> > > stuff set up from the Garmin 520 which I have, and is sitting dead in a
> > > draw…
> > >
> > > Ie I powered it up connected to the phone and as it had my account anyway
> > > it just imported that.
> > >
> > > I did set up two profiles as MTB/Gravel are different uses and so on.
> > > >
> > > > But it still wouldn't change display windows as it showed in the video I
> > > > watched. I suppose that they assumed that you were already in setup and
> > > > the setup window of course looks identical to the normal data window.
> > > > Once that was straighten out I got the data windows setup the way I
> > > > wanted them. I will still have to test it all after a ride but it is
> > > > supposed to download from the 830 directly into the computer via the
> > > > BlueTooth link and you would use the cable only for charging.
> > > >
> > > > This all would have been a lot less painful if they included a manual or
> > > > at least a paper with the website on it where the on-line manual is
> > > > located. Being a bit old fashion I don't think it is fashionable to look
> > > > for everything via Google and then sort through all of the entries to
> > > > discover the one which will fill your needs and which always turns out to
> > > > be the wrong one. If you hit the one of a million entries that says
> > > > "Garmin Connect" it starts up a Garmin connect elsewhere that runs on
> > > > your home computer. Maybe some people find that helpful because they
> > > > don't have enough storage space. But I don't much care for everyone and
> > > > his brother knowing what I am doing at any time.
> > > There is a quick start guide in the box, and link in that for the manual
> > > proper if one wants, I do have the manual as well they are complicated bits
> > > of kit.
> > >
> > > Garmin are not alone in not providing paper manuals anymore, to be honest I
> > > just powered on, let phone and it talk, and used the Manual for some set up
> > > stuff much later after a few rides etc.
> > > >
> > > > In any case, the 830 is now registered and setup.
> > > >
> > > > Here is a question in case any of you have an answer: The bottom of the
> > > > 830 inside the twist connector has 4 electrical contacts. Does anyone
> > > > know what this is for? Is there an accessory charger so that you simply
> > > > put your 830 into a holder to charge rather than fighting that cable?
> > > >
> > > Been answered but battery pack, which seems somewhat redundant since in my
> > > experience only uses 15/20% for most rides.
> > >
> > > But I guess some folks will ride for days on end?
> > I suppose that it would be good for tourists that ride into areas where an electrical connection isn't available. Though I've toured a bit I was never in that situation where a fast charger wouldn't put everything to right with a line of people waiting.
> Yesterday I intended to do a climbing ride and road out to Niles and had a muffin and coffee before attempting the rather dangerous road into Niles Canyon to Palomares Rd. (The rather odd translation from Spanish means that there are doves along side of the road - can't say that I remember ever seeing doves on that 1,000 ft. climb or descent) While sitting waiting for the light to change so that I could cross Mission Blvd. I could see a sign that said that Palomares was closed. Now, that was highly unlikely but rather than ride that horrible canyon road to find that it was closed, I took a long route back along the flats. So I put in 42 miles at my normal average on the flats of 11.5 mph. Since I was on the Airborne titanium bike which is more at home on the flats than in the hills, that was just as well. Thursday I will pass 900 miles for the year if it doesn't rain and be working on crossing 2,000 meters of climbing for the year. I expect to get in 125,000 ft or 39,000 meters of climbing for the year. The Garmin 830 worked flawlessly which leads me to wonder how it could ever work at all in the initial 4..14 miles without being set up properly.

Please understand I am not being too critical of you Tom. But this post brings up a very obvious contradiction, discrepancy that I feel compelled to point out to you. And everyone else. In this post you state:

"So I put in 42 miles at my normal average on the flats of 11.5 mph."

Great. Yeah. But Tom, 11.5 mph average speed for 42 miles is NOT a fast racing speed. Again, I am not criticizing your speed. For a 77 year old man, its great to just ride a bicycle at any speed. But 11.5 mph is a very moderate speed for any age rider. YET, in other numerous posts, you brag about how you ride away from young racer boys on all of your hilly rides. You have repeatedly claimed you rode away from groups of young racer boys on hills. I recall one where you passed or dropped several racer boys on a hill and then stopped at the top for a drink and they gasped and wheezed their way past you and coasted down the hill to get as far from you as possible.. And maybe you coasted past them on the way down and left them in the dust too. I've forgotten some of your stories.

So I have to ask, how does someone who claims to ride 11.5 mph average on the flats, which is a fine pace, be able to embarrass and humiliate young racer boys on the hills by dropping them? 2 + 2 does not equal 4 here.

Now Tom, if you said your average speed on the flat was 18.5 mph, way above your stated average of 11.5 mph, then maybe possibly we could believe skeptically that you ride away from the young racer boys on the hills. But probably not. Now if you say your average flat riding speed is 22.5 mph, then yes we would easily believe you ride away from the young racer boys and leave them gasping in shame and humiliation. But 11.5 mph average speed on the flats? Something is not adding up here.

On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 11:25:22 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
> The Garmin Edge 830 has a few things you must remember about it. Firstly the common charging cable that comes with it is incompatible with others that appear the same. Although they allow charging they do not have the data lines necessary to connect the 830 to a home computer. This isn't a problem IF you have the 830 set up to WiFi data through your home network but the standard Garmin Express seems to block access to your WiFi unless you know your password. These days most people don't commonly memorize their passwords and use wildly different passwords since Windows normally memorizes them for you and you don't want one password for something jeopardizing that of some more important access such as your bank account or whatever.
>
> Playing around with Garmin Express I finally got it to register my new 830 after a very painful long production that was based mostly on the fact that 1. You need the updated software package on your computer and you phone needs to have Garmin Connect app on it and you have to follow the procedures. This brought the 830 into the fold.
>
> But it still wouldn't change display windows as it showed in the video I watched. I suppose that they assumed that you were already in setup and the setup window of course looks identical to the normal data window. Once that was straighten out I got the data windows setup the way I wanted them. I will still have to test it all after a ride but it is supposed to download from the 830 directly into the computer via the BlueTooth link and you would use the cable only for charging.
>
> This all would have been a lot less painful if they included a manual or at least a paper with the website on it where the on-line manual is located.. Being a bit old fashion I don't think it is fashionable to look for everything via Google and then sort through all of the entries to discover the one which will fill your needs and which always turns out to be the wrong one. If you hit the one of a million entries that says "Garmin Connect" it starts up a Garmin connect elsewhere that runs on your home computer. Maybe some people find that helpful because they don't have enough storage space. But I don't much care for everyone and his brother knowing what I am doing at any time.
>
> In any case, the 830 is now registered and setup.
>
> Here is a question in case any of you have an answer: The bottom of the 830 inside the twist connector has 4 electrical contacts. Does anyone know what this is for? Is there an accessory charger so that you simply put your 830 into a holder to charge rather than fighting that cable?

I did another 40 mile ride today with almost 2,000 feet of climbing that put me over 10,000 feet so far. One of the very odd things that occurred was that while I was climbing some pretty steep stuff that had me concentrating on turning the cranks over. This was a little side road that people shouldn't be driving on because of road conditions and bicyclists commonly make this climb. A safe speed limit on this road would be 25 mph since there are driveways exiting onto it that are completely blind. And the majority of the road is in fairly deep shadows from tree cover. So of course cars were coming by in groups of 5 at 45 mph.

Finally I got to a section that I felt was a lot less steep and I could more or less relax and climb without fear of pooping out. When I looked at the grade on the Garmin it gave me 8.5% So I wonder what the steep sections were. But I couldn't take the time to try to focus on the small window on the Garmin with plenty of road problems.

So my guess was 11% and the climb is mostly at this rate for 2 miles. Though there are some downhills from which you then have to climb the same altitude yet again. Finally came down into the San Ramon Valley and looked down and the Garman had stopped running yet again. The road wasn't rough that I had just gone through so there wasn't any obvious reason not only for the speed and mileage to die but the timer as well had stopped. I pushed the run button but it showed a STOPPED screen. Turning it back on had no effect. 11 miles later, I climbed another 800 feet with some really steep spots and cars zooming by and then pulling over into the bike lane despite plenty of room. At the top of that climb is a small park where you can use restrooms and get water. I had to sit down after using the toilet so I was at an adjacent bench and looked over the Garmin. It all seemed to be OK and I turned it on and off a couple of times which didn't seem to start the timer. But when I took off to make the final 14 miles back to home, the speedo was working again. At one point the display said "Lap 4" and I hit the left button and that disappeared and the base screen reappeared. Finally 2 miles from home the Garmin again seized. At no point did there seem to be any sort of reasons for the problem to appear.

On Thursday, March 10, 2022 at 4:19:54 PM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 11:25:22 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > The Garmin Edge 830 has a few things you must remember about it. Firstly the common charging cable that comes with it is incompatible with others that appear the same. Although they allow charging they do not have the data lines necessary to connect the 830 to a home computer. This isn't a problem IF you have the 830 set up to WiFi data through your home network but the standard Garmin Express seems to block access to your WiFi unless you know your password. These days most people don't commonly memorize their passwords and use wildly different passwords since Windows normally memorizes them for you and you don't want one password for something jeopardizing that of some more important access such as your bank account or whatever.
> >
> > Playing around with Garmin Express I finally got it to register my new 830 after a very painful long production that was based mostly on the fact that 1. You need the updated software package on your computer and you phone needs to have Garmin Connect app on it and you have to follow the procedures. This brought the 830 into the fold.
> >
> > But it still wouldn't change display windows as it showed in the video I watched. I suppose that they assumed that you were already in setup and the setup window of course looks identical to the normal data window. Once that was straighten out I got the data windows setup the way I wanted them. I will still have to test it all after a ride but it is supposed to download from the 830 directly into the computer via the BlueTooth link and you would use the cable only for charging.
> >
> > This all would have been a lot less painful if they included a manual or at least a paper with the website on it where the on-line manual is located. Being a bit old fashion I don't think it is fashionable to look for everything via Google and then sort through all of the entries to discover the one which will fill your needs and which always turns out to be the wrong one. If you hit the one of a million entries that says "Garmin Connect" it starts up a Garmin connect elsewhere that runs on your home computer. Maybe some people find that helpful because they don't have enough storage space.. But I don't much care for everyone and his brother knowing what I am doing at any time.
> >
> > In any case, the 830 is now registered and setup.
> >
> > Here is a question in case any of you have an answer: The bottom of the 830 inside the twist connector has 4 electrical contacts. Does anyone know what this is for? Is there an accessory charger so that you simply put your 830 into a holder to charge rather than fighting that cable?
> I did another 40 mile ride today with almost 2,000 feet of climbing that put me over 10,000 feet so far. One of the very odd things that occurred was that while I was climbing some pretty steep stuff that had me concentrating on turning the cranks over. This was a little side road that people shouldn't be driving on because of road conditions and bicyclists commonly make this climb. A safe speed limit on this road would be 25 mph since there are driveways exiting onto it that are completely blind. And the majority of the road is in fairly deep shadows from tree cover. So of course cars were coming by in groups of 5 at 45 mph.
>
> Finally I got to a section that I felt was a lot less steep and I could more or less relax and climb without fear of pooping out. When I looked at the grade on the Garmin it gave me 8.5% So I wonder what the steep sections were. But I couldn't take the time to try to focus on the small window on the Garmin with plenty of road problems.
>
> So my guess was 11% and the climb is mostly at this rate for 2 miles. Though there are some downhills from which you then have to climb the same altitude yet again. Finally came down into the San Ramon Valley and looked down and the Garman had stopped running yet again. The road wasn't rough that I had just gone through so there wasn't any obvious reason not only for the speed and mileage to die but the timer as well had stopped. I pushed the run button but it showed a STOPPED screen. Turning it back on had no effect. 11 miles later, I climbed another 800 feet with some really steep spots and cars zooming by and then pulling over into the bike lane despite plenty of room. At the top of that climb is a small park where you can use restrooms and get water. I had to sit down after using the toilet so I was at an adjacent bench and looked over the Garmin. It all seemed to be OK and I turned it on and off a couple of times which didn't seem to start the timer. But when I took off to make the final 14 miles back to home, the speedo was working again. At one point the display said "Lap 4" and I hit the left button and that disappeared and the base screen reappeared. Finally 2 miles from home the Garmin again seized. At no point did there seem to be any sort of reasons for the problem to appear.

Calling up Garmin support today, I was shown some "features" of the Edge 830. There are some auto start and stop features that I'm not clear the reason for. So I simply put the unit into "manual" which would make the start and stop functions the same as the 800. Also there is some sort of auto-lap function that I certainly don't understand. There was only one point in the ride in which I passed the same point I had crossed on the way out. So how could I have gotten 4 laps in?

Garmin support though it may take quite a bit of time to get through is friendly and I was told that actual failures are rare and that problems as I've been having are usually set-up problems. One thing that I might complain about is that there is a difference between set-up and what appears to be the same screen running in normal. But again, this is something that simply has to be worked through. Reading the manual doesn't seem to make the understanding of these things any easier. Often the meanings are not what the titles would appear. Autostart at 6 mph sort of appears as if it is also an autostop at 6 mph. But it isn't.

Looking at the Garmin plot I discovered that the top of Norris Canyon which I assumed to be 600-800 feet is rather 1,000 feet. No wonder it seems so far a climb. And then the second climb of the day is 800 feet rather than the 600 feet which it is on the other side of the Freeway. Judging distance climbed is difficult as is percentage of climb. While you are coasting down a slight descent and approaching the next climb it always appears to be a great deal steeper than it actually is. But when you're approaching a steeper part of the climb from a pretty steep climb it doesn't appear to be that must steeper even when it is. Going from 8% to 9% to 10% and 11% looks like no change at all except in your legs. Topping a climb of 12% does make you very happy though.

On Fri, 11 Mar 2022 08:14:46 -0800 (PST),
Tom Kunich <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thursday, March 10, 2022 at 4:19:54 PM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 11:25:22 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:

> > > The Garmin Edge 830 has a few things you must remember about
> > > it...

> > > In any case, the 830 is now registered and setup.

> > Finally I got to a section that I felt was a lot less steep
> > and I could more or less relax and climb without fear of
> > pooping out. When I looked at the grade on the Garmin it gave
> > me 8.5% So I wonder what the steep sections were. But I
> > couldn't take the time to try to focus on the small window on
> > the Garmin with plenty of road problems.

I too have times when the Garmin display is too small (or too dim)
to see clearly. Frustrating, for sure.

> > ...At the top of that climb is a small park where you can
> > use restrooms and get water. I had to sit down after using the
> > toilet so I was at an adjacent bench and looked over the
> > Garmin. It all seemed to be OK and I turned it on and off a
> > couple of times which didn't seem to start the timer. But when
> > I took off to make the final 14 miles back to home, the speedo
> > was working again. At one point the display said "Lap 4" and I
> > hit the left button and that disappeared and the base screen
> > reappeared. Finally 2 miles from home the Garmin again seized.
> > At no point did there seem to be any sort of reasons for the
> > problem to appear.
>
> Calling up Garmin support today, I was shown some "features" of
> the Edge 830. There are some auto start and stop features that
> I'm not clear the reason for. So I simply put the unit into
> "manual" which would make the start and stop functions the same
> as the 800. Also there is some sort of auto-lap function that I
> certainly don't understand. There was only one point in the
> ride in which I passed the same point I had crossed on the way
> out. So how could I have gotten 4 laps in?

Interesting. I wondered about your report of multiple laps
recorded and whether you may have inadvertantly pushed the lap
counter button. I have definitely done that on my 820 more than
once! An autolap function makes more sense, but it does seem
weird it would cut in thatmany times. Maybe it's configured on a
certain distance?

Regarding the autostart (and prsumably autostop) functions, these
may be so that the average speed is not affected by stops. After
a ride you can find average moving time, but I haven't found a way
to show it on my 820. Another reason for it may be to stay
competitive with a virtual partner--that simulated rider never
stops, so if you stop for any length of time you are constantly
falling behind (unless you stop the unit).

> ...While you are coasting down a slight descent and approaching
> the next climb it always appears to be a great deal steeper
> than it actually is.

That is so true! Even after many years of riding, and knowing
this phenomenon, I'm still often surprised by the difference.

Thanks for letting us know what you found regarding the Garmin
behavior.

--
Ted Heise <theise@panix.com> West Lafayette, IN, USA

On Friday, March 11, 2022 at 9:27:20 AM UTC-8, Ted Heise wrote:
> On Fri, 11 Mar 2022 08:14:46 -0800 (PST),
> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Thursday, March 10, 2022 at 4:19:54 PM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 11:25:22 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> > > > The Garmin Edge 830 has a few things you must remember about
> > > > it...
> > > > In any case, the 830 is now registered and setup.
> > > Finally I got to a section that I felt was a lot less steep
> > > and I could more or less relax and climb without fear of
> > > pooping out. When I looked at the grade on the Garmin it gave
> > > me 8.5% So I wonder what the steep sections were. But I
> > > couldn't take the time to try to focus on the small window on
> > > the Garmin with plenty of road problems.
> I too have times when the Garmin display is too small (or too dim)
> to see clearly. Frustrating, for sure.
>
>
> > > ...At the top of that climb is a small park where you can
> > > use restrooms and get water. I had to sit down after using the
> > > toilet so I was at an adjacent bench and looked over the
> > > Garmin. It all seemed to be OK and I turned it on and off a
> > > couple of times which didn't seem to start the timer. But when
> > > I took off to make the final 14 miles back to home, the speedo
> > > was working again. At one point the display said "Lap 4" and I
> > > hit the left button and that disappeared and the base screen
> > > reappeared. Finally 2 miles from home the Garmin again seized.
> > > At no point did there seem to be any sort of reasons for the
> > > problem to appear.
> >
> > Calling up Garmin support today, I was shown some "features" of
> > the Edge 830. There are some auto start and stop features that
> > I'm not clear the reason for. So I simply put the unit into
> > "manual" which would make the start and stop functions the same
> > as the 800. Also there is some sort of auto-lap function that I
> > certainly don't understand. There was only one point in the
> > ride in which I passed the same point I had crossed on the way
> > out. So how could I have gotten 4 laps in?
> Interesting. I wondered about your report of multiple laps
> recorded and whether you may have inadvertantly pushed the lap
> counter button. I have definitely done that on my 820 more than
> once! An autolap function makes more sense, but it does seem
> weird it would cut in thatmany times. Maybe it's configured on a
> certain distance?
>
> Regarding the autostart (and prsumably autostop) functions, these
> may be so that the average speed is not affected by stops. After
> a ride you can find average moving time, but I haven't found a way
> to show it on my 820. Another reason for it may be to stay
> competitive with a virtual partner--that simulated rider never
> stops, so if you stop for any length of time you are constantly
> falling behind (unless you stop the unit).
>
>
> > ...While you are coasting down a slight descent and approaching
> > the next climb it always appears to be a great deal steeper
> > than it actually is.
> That is so true! Even after many years of riding, and knowing
> this phenomenon, I'm still often surprised by the difference.
>
> Thanks for letting us know what you found regarding the Garmin
> behavior.
> --
> Ted Heise <the...@panix.com> West Lafayette, IN, USA

The lap function you think would be a good idea if you were racing since it would keep you abreast of when the last lap was. But I would think that this could only work if you passed the same location again and again. In the case of my ride, the route only came together at one point and then traced the incoming route back to home. But maybe you have to set that up as well. Since I have no interest in laps, I just want it not to be blocking the view of the main screen. So I turned that from default 'ON' to 'OFF'.

Because of the tree shadows and the size of that rate of climb window I couldn't see the actual rate of climb on the steep parts so the relative ease of climbing at 8.5% out in bright sun surprised me. That is not a mild climb. Horses can only pull wagon loads up to 7%.

Now there is a section I will climb after I get rid of my winter belly that is 16% for a quarter mile and climbing that without being shot for the rest of the ride always shows me the condition I'm in. And there is a metric century next month that I am entered in. It only has 2200 feet of climbing but one section is 20% for half a mile. Most people push up that. I haven't found that necessary but there's always a first time.

On Fri, 11 Mar 2022 10:01:54 -0800 (PST),
Tom Kunich <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Friday, March 11, 2022 at 9:27:20 AM UTC-8, Ted Heise wrote:
> > On Fri, 11 Mar 2022 08:14:46 -0800 (PST),
> > Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > > Calling up Garmin support today, I was shown some "features"
> > > of the Edge 830. There are some auto start and stop features
> > > that I'm not clear the reason for. So I simply put the unit
> > > into "manual" which would make the start and stop functions
> > > the same as the 800. Also there is some sort of auto-lap
> > > function that I certainly don't understand. There was only
> > > one point in the ride in which I passed the same point I had
> > > crossed on the way out. So how could I have gotten 4 laps
> > > in?
> > Interesting. I wondered about your report of multiple laps
> > recorded and whether you may have inadvertantly pushed the lap
> > counter button. I have definitely done that on my 820 more
> > than once! An autolap function makes more sense, but it does
> > seem weird it would cut in thatmany times. Maybe it's
> > configured on a certain distance?
> >
> > Regarding the autostart (and prsumably autostop) functions,
> > these may be so that the average speed is not affected by
> > stops. After a ride you can find average moving time, but I
> > haven't found a way to show it on my 820. Another reason for
> > it may be to stay competitive with a virtual partner--that
> > simulated rider never stops, so if you stop for any length of
> > time you are constantly falling behind (unless you stop the
> > unit).

> > Thanks for letting us know what you found regarding the Garmin
> > behavior.

> The lap function you think would be a good idea if you were
> racing since it would keep you abreast of when the last lap
> was. But I would think that this could only work if you passed
> the same location again and again. In the case of my ride, the
> route only came together at one point and then traced the
> incoming route back to home. But maybe you have to set that up
> as well. Since I have no interest in laps, I just want it not
> to be blocking the view of the main screen. So I turned that
> from default 'ON' to 'OFF'.

Good solution. I wish I could even disable use of the button that
manually starts a new lap, but am not aware of a way to do that.

> Because of the tree shadows and the size of that rate of climb
> window I couldn't see the actual rate of climb on the steep
> parts so the relative ease of climbing at 8.5% out in bright
> sun surprised me. That is not a mild climb. Horses can only
> pull wagon loads up to 7%.
>
> Now there is a section I will climb after I get rid of my
> winter belly that is 16% for a quarter mile and climbing that
> without being shot for the rest of the ride always shows me the
> condition I'm in. And there is a metric century next month that
> I am entered in. It only has 2200 feet of climbing but one
> section is 20% for half a mile. Most people push up that. I
> haven't found that necessary but there's always a first time.

Yeah, those more recent Garmin displays can be hard to read in
some lighting conditions. And 20% for half a mile? I would be
walking, no doubt!

--
Ted Heise <theise@panix.com> West Lafayette, IN, USA

Tom Kunich <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Friday, March 11, 2022 at 9:27:20 AM UTC-8, Ted Heise wrote:
>> On Fri, 11 Mar 2022 08:14:46 -0800 (PST),
>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Thursday, March 10, 2022 at 4:19:54 PM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>> On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 11:25:22 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>
>>>>> The Garmin Edge 830 has a few things you must remember about
>>>>> it...
>>>>> In any case, the 830 is now registered and setup.
>>>> Finally I got to a section that I felt was a lot less steep
>>>> and I could more or less relax and climb without fear of
>>>> pooping out. When I looked at the grade on the Garmin it gave
>>>> me 8.5% So I wonder what the steep sections were. But I
>>>> couldn't take the time to try to focus on the small window on
>>>> the Garmin with plenty of road problems.
>> I too have times when the Garmin display is too small (or too dim)
>> to see clearly. Frustrating, for sure.
>>
>>
>>>> ...At the top of that climb is a small park where you can
>>>> use restrooms and get water. I had to sit down after using the
>>>> toilet so I was at an adjacent bench and looked over the
>>>> Garmin. It all seemed to be OK and I turned it on and off a
>>>> couple of times which didn't seem to start the timer. But when
>>>> I took off to make the final 14 miles back to home, the speedo
>>>> was working again. At one point the display said "Lap 4" and I
>>>> hit the left button and that disappeared and the base screen
>>>> reappeared. Finally 2 miles from home the Garmin again seized.
>>>> At no point did there seem to be any sort of reasons for the
>>>> problem to appear.
>>>
>>> Calling up Garmin support today, I was shown some "features" of
>>> the Edge 830. There are some auto start and stop features that
>>> I'm not clear the reason for. So I simply put the unit into
>>> "manual" which would make the start and stop functions the same
>>> as the 800. Also there is some sort of auto-lap function that I
>>> certainly don't understand. There was only one point in the
>>> ride in which I passed the same point I had crossed on the way
>>> out. So how could I have gotten 4 laps in?
>> Interesting. I wondered about your report of multiple laps
>> recorded and whether you may have inadvertantly pushed the lap
>> counter button. I have definitely done that on my 820 more than
>> once! An autolap function makes more sense, but it does seem
>> weird it would cut in thatmany times. Maybe it's configured on a
>> certain distance?
>>
>> Regarding the autostart (and prsumably autostop) functions, these
>> may be so that the average speed is not affected by stops. After
>> a ride you can find average moving time, but I haven't found a way
>> to show it on my 820. Another reason for it may be to stay
>> competitive with a virtual partner--that simulated rider never
>> stops, so if you stop for any length of time you are constantly
>> falling behind (unless you stop the unit).
>>
>>
>>> ...While you are coasting down a slight descent and approaching
>>> the next climb it always appears to be a great deal steeper
>>> than it actually is.
>> That is so true! Even after many years of riding, and knowing
>> this phenomenon, I'm still often surprised by the difference.
>>
>> Thanks for letting us know what you found regarding the Garmin
>> behavior.
>> --
>> Ted Heise <the...@panix.com> West Lafayette, IN, USA
>
> The lap function you think would be a good idea if you were racing since
> it would keep you abreast of when the last lap was. But I would think
> that this could only work if you passed the same location again and
> again. In the case of my ride, the route only came together at one point
> and then traced the incoming route back to home. But maybe you have to
> set that up as well. Since I have no interest in laps, I just want it not
> to be blocking the view of the main screen. So I turned that from default 'ON' to 'OFF'.
>
> Because of the tree shadows and the size of that rate of climb window I
> couldn't see the actual rate of climb on the steep parts so the relative
> ease of climbing at 8.5% out in bright sun surprised me. That is not a
> mild climb. Horses can only pull wagon loads up to 7%.

Older roads tend to be steeper more direct, horse and cart can be pushed up
the inclines, the advent of the motor car and its lack of power, triggered
the switch back climbs being built vs just direct up!

By old I mean pre Roman generally, of which a sizeable number still exists,
and even the Romans where pragmatic, ie if the old road isn’t dead straight
but is the only sane way up, then that’s what you do, see Hardknott pass
for a good example.

>
> Now there is a section I will climb after I get rid of my winter belly
> that is 16% for a quarter mile and climbing that without being shot for
> the rest of the ride always shows me the condition I'm in. And there is a
> metric century next month that I am entered in. It only has 2200 feet of
> climbing but one section is 20% for half a mile. Most people push up
> that. I haven't found that necessary but there's always a first time.

I’d take the indicated grades with a pinch of salt, rather like estimated
power! Generally okay for average grade over a hill, but peak values are
frankly junk!
>

Roger Merriman

On Saturday, March 12, 2022 at 5:46:48 AM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Friday, March 11, 2022 at 9:27:20 AM UTC-8, Ted Heise wrote:
> >> On Fri, 11 Mar 2022 08:14:46 -0800 (PST),
> >> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> On Thursday, March 10, 2022 at 4:19:54 PM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>> On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 11:25:22 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>
> >>>>> The Garmin Edge 830 has a few things you must remember about
> >>>>> it...
> >>>>> In any case, the 830 is now registered and setup.
> >>>> Finally I got to a section that I felt was a lot less steep
> >>>> and I could more or less relax and climb without fear of
> >>>> pooping out. When I looked at the grade on the Garmin it gave
> >>>> me 8.5% So I wonder what the steep sections were. But I
> >>>> couldn't take the time to try to focus on the small window on
> >>>> the Garmin with plenty of road problems.
> >> I too have times when the Garmin display is too small (or too dim)
> >> to see clearly. Frustrating, for sure.
> >>
> >>
> >>>> ...At the top of that climb is a small park where you can
> >>>> use restrooms and get water. I had to sit down after using the
> >>>> toilet so I was at an adjacent bench and looked over the
> >>>> Garmin. It all seemed to be OK and I turned it on and off a
> >>>> couple of times which didn't seem to start the timer. But when
> >>>> I took off to make the final 14 miles back to home, the speedo
> >>>> was working again. At one point the display said "Lap 4" and I
> >>>> hit the left button and that disappeared and the base screen
> >>>> reappeared. Finally 2 miles from home the Garmin again seized.
> >>>> At no point did there seem to be any sort of reasons for the
> >>>> problem to appear.
> >>>
> >>> Calling up Garmin support today, I was shown some "features" of
> >>> the Edge 830. There are some auto start and stop features that
> >>> I'm not clear the reason for. So I simply put the unit into
> >>> "manual" which would make the start and stop functions the same
> >>> as the 800. Also there is some sort of auto-lap function that I
> >>> certainly don't understand. There was only one point in the
> >>> ride in which I passed the same point I had crossed on the way
> >>> out. So how could I have gotten 4 laps in?
> >> Interesting. I wondered about your report of multiple laps
> >> recorded and whether you may have inadvertantly pushed the lap
> >> counter button. I have definitely done that on my 820 more than
> >> once! An autolap function makes more sense, but it does seem
> >> weird it would cut in thatmany times. Maybe it's configured on a
> >> certain distance?
> >>
> >> Regarding the autostart (and prsumably autostop) functions, these
> >> may be so that the average speed is not affected by stops. After
> >> a ride you can find average moving time, but I haven't found a way
> >> to show it on my 820. Another reason for it may be to stay
> >> competitive with a virtual partner--that simulated rider never
> >> stops, so if you stop for any length of time you are constantly
> >> falling behind (unless you stop the unit).
> >>
> >>
> >>> ...While you are coasting down a slight descent and approaching
> >>> the next climb it always appears to be a great deal steeper
> >>> than it actually is.
> >> That is so true! Even after many years of riding, and knowing
> >> this phenomenon, I'm still often surprised by the difference.
> >>
> >> Thanks for letting us know what you found regarding the Garmin
> >> behavior.
> >> --
> >> Ted Heise <the...@panix.com> West Lafayette, IN, USA
> >
> > The lap function you think would be a good idea if you were racing since
> > it would keep you abreast of when the last lap was. But I would think
> > that this could only work if you passed the same location again and
> > again. In the case of my ride, the route only came together at one point
> > and then traced the incoming route back to home. But maybe you have to
> > set that up as well. Since I have no interest in laps, I just want it not
> > to be blocking the view of the main screen. So I turned that from default 'ON' to 'OFF'.
> >
> > Because of the tree shadows and the size of that rate of climb window I
> > couldn't see the actual rate of climb on the steep parts so the relative
> > ease of climbing at 8.5% out in bright sun surprised me. That is not a
> > mild climb. Horses can only pull wagon loads up to 7%.
> Older roads tend to be steeper more direct, horse and cart can be pushed up
> the inclines, the advent of the motor car and its lack of power, triggered
> the switch back climbs being built vs just direct up!
>
> By old I mean pre Roman generally, of which a sizeable number still exists,
> and even the Romans where pragmatic, ie if the old road isn’t dead straight
> but is the only sane way up, then that’s what you do, see Hardknott pass
> for a good example.
> >
> > Now there is a section I will climb after I get rid of my winter belly
> > that is 16% for a quarter mile and climbing that without being shot for
> > the rest of the ride always shows me the condition I'm in. And there is a
> > metric century next month that I am entered in. It only has 2200 feet of
> > climbing but one section is 20% for half a mile. Most people push up
> > that. I haven't found that necessary but there's always a first time.
> I’d take the indicated grades with a pinch of salt, rather like estimated
> power! Generally okay for average grade over a hill, but peak values are
> frankly junk!

Well, in the case of this ride, that climb showed that grade on my German speedo/altimeter the entire distance and there wasn't even a bobble on that grade. I remembered the Three Bears as a hard climb but after that short hard climb I didn't even notice that I was climbing and asked some guy I was riding with if there weren't the Three Bears on this ride and he said, "You're on Papa Bear right now!".

On 3/12/2022 8:46 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>
> Older roads tend to be steeper more direct, horse and cart can be pushed up
> the inclines, the advent of the motor car and its lack of power, triggered
> the switch back climbs being built vs just direct up!

Interesting. Maybe 15 years ago on a solo ride, I came across a road
that's well within my riding territory, but that I'd somehow never
ridden. On turning a bend, I saw a fearsome looking climb - or rather, I
saw that the road must go up to the top of a very tall ridge; the road
itself wasn't visible through the trees.

I very specifically thought "I'll be OK because it can't possibly go
straight up. This is an old road, and a horse pulling a wagon could
never make it straight up. There must be switchbacks."

I was wrong. It was straight up. I don't know the grade, but I remember
being in my touring bike's granny gear and still needing to stand to
complete the climb.

So I guess my "horse and wagon" thinking was backwards.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 3/12/2022 8:46 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>
>> Older roads tend to be steeper more direct, horse and cart can be pushed up
>> the inclines, the advent of the motor car and its lack of power, triggered
>> the switch back climbs being built vs just direct up!
>
> Interesting. Maybe 15 years ago on a solo ride, I came across a road
> that's well within my riding territory, but that I'd somehow never
> ridden. On turning a bend, I saw a fearsome looking climb - or rather, I
> saw that the road must go up to the top of a very tall ridge; the road
> itself wasn't visible through the trees.
>
> I very specifically thought "I'll be OK because it can't possibly go
> straight up. This is an old road, and a horse pulling a wagon could
> never make it straight up. There must be switchbacks."
>
> I was wrong. It was straight up. I don't know the grade, but I remember
> being in my touring bike's granny gear and still needing to stand to
> complete the climb.
>
> So I guess my "horse and wagon" thinking was backwards.
>
American maybe different, I assume native Americans had pack roads in
places? But yes the old road ie few 1000 years old, often hug the ridge
line and take a direct route, vs inclined routes that more modern roads
use.

Roger Merriman

On Sat, 12 Mar 2022 19:45:36 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman
<roger@sarlet.com> wrote:

>Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> On 3/12/2022 8:46 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>
>>> Older roads tend to be steeper more direct, horse and cart can be pushed up
>>> the inclines, the advent of the motor car and its lack of power, triggered
>>> the switch back climbs being built vs just direct up!
>>
>> Interesting. Maybe 15 years ago on a solo ride, I came across a road
>> that's well within my riding territory, but that I'd somehow never
>> ridden. On turning a bend, I saw a fearsome looking climb - or rather, I
>> saw that the road must go up to the top of a very tall ridge; the road
>> itself wasn't visible through the trees.
>>
>> I very specifically thought "I'll be OK because it can't possibly go
>> straight up. This is an old road, and a horse pulling a wagon could
>> never make it straight up. There must be switchbacks."
>>
>> I was wrong. It was straight up. I don't know the grade, but I remember
>> being in my touring bike's granny gear and still needing to stand to
>> complete the climb.
>>
>> So I guess my "horse and wagon" thinking was backwards.
>>
>American maybe different, I assume native Americans had pack roads in
>places? But yes the old road ie few 1000 years old, often hug the ridge
>line and take a direct route, vs inclined routes that more modern roads
>use.
>
>Roger Merriman

I grew up in New Hampshire where certainly some roads dated back to
the 1700's and I don't remember any "switchback" roads. But equally
true roads didn't go up, or down, extreme slopes.There is always a way
around although it may be longer (:-)

As for Native Americans, I doubt very much that prior to the invasion
of the Europeans that had anything more then foot paths as their only
"beast of burden" was a dog.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Saturday, March 12, 2022 at 4:55:47 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
> On Sat, 12 Mar 2022 19:45:36 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman
> <ro...@sarlet.com> wrote:
>
> >Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >> On 3/12/2022 8:46 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Older roads tend to be steeper more direct, horse and cart can be pushed up
> >>> the inclines, the advent of the motor car and its lack of power, triggered
> >>> the switch back climbs being built vs just direct up!
> >>
> >> Interesting. Maybe 15 years ago on a solo ride, I came across a road
> >> that's well within my riding territory, but that I'd somehow never
> >> ridden. On turning a bend, I saw a fearsome looking climb - or rather, I
> >> saw that the road must go up to the top of a very tall ridge; the road
> >> itself wasn't visible through the trees.
> >>
> >> I very specifically thought "I'll be OK because it can't possibly go
> >> straight up. This is an old road, and a horse pulling a wagon could
> >> never make it straight up. There must be switchbacks."
> >>
> >> I was wrong. It was straight up. I don't know the grade, but I remember
> >> being in my touring bike's granny gear and still needing to stand to
> >> complete the climb.
> >>
> >> So I guess my "horse and wagon" thinking was backwards.
> >>
> >American maybe different, I assume native Americans had pack roads in
> >places? But yes the old road ie few 1000 years old, often hug the ridge
> >line and take a direct route, vs inclined routes that more modern roads
> >use.
> >
> >Roger Merriman
> I grew up in New Hampshire where certainly some roads dated back to
> the 1700's and I don't remember any "switchback" roads. But equally
> true roads didn't go up, or down, extreme slopes.There is always a way
> around although it may be longer (:-)
>
> As for Native Americans, I doubt very much that prior to the invasion
> of the Europeans that had anything more then foot paths as their only
> "beast of burden" was a dog.
> --
> Cheers,
>
> John B.

There weren't horses, mules, donkeys, oxen, cows in North America before Europeans brought them over in the 1600s when they found America? Had Native Americans invented wheels before Europeans brought them over to North America?

On Sat, 12 Mar 2022 18:33:25 -0800 (PST), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, March 12, 2022 at 4:55:47 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>> On Sat, 12 Mar 2022 19:45:36 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman
>> <ro...@sarlet.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> >> On 3/12/2022 8:46 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Older roads tend to be steeper more direct, horse and cart can be pushed up
>> >>> the inclines, the advent of the motor car and its lack of power, triggered
>> >>> the switch back climbs being built vs just direct up!
>> >>
>> >> Interesting. Maybe 15 years ago on a solo ride, I came across a road
>> >> that's well within my riding territory, but that I'd somehow never
>> >> ridden. On turning a bend, I saw a fearsome looking climb - or rather, I
>> >> saw that the road must go up to the top of a very tall ridge; the road
>> >> itself wasn't visible through the trees.
>> >>
>> >> I very specifically thought "I'll be OK because it can't possibly go
>> >> straight up. This is an old road, and a horse pulling a wagon could
>> >> never make it straight up. There must be switchbacks."
>> >>
>> >> I was wrong. It was straight up. I don't know the grade, but I remember
>> >> being in my touring bike's granny gear and still needing to stand to
>> >> complete the climb.
>> >>
>> >> So I guess my "horse and wagon" thinking was backwards.
>> >>
>> >American maybe different, I assume native Americans had pack roads in
>> >places? But yes the old road ie few 1000 years old, often hug the ridge
>> >line and take a direct route, vs inclined routes that more modern roads
>> >use.
>> >
>> >Roger Merriman
>> I grew up in New Hampshire where certainly some roads dated back to
>> the 1700's and I don't remember any "switchback" roads. But equally
>> true roads didn't go up, or down, extreme slopes.There is always a way
>> around although it may be longer (:-)
>>
>> As for Native Americans, I doubt very much that prior to the invasion
>> of the Europeans that had anything more then foot paths as their only
>> "beast of burden" was a dog.
>> --
>> Cheers,
>>
>> John B.
>
>There weren't horses, mules, donkeys, oxen, cows in North America before Europeans brought them over in the 1600s when they found America? Had Native Americans invented wheels before Europeans brought them over to North America?

Actually, I didn't get my statement exactly correct. I should have
written:
"as their only "beast(s) of burden" was a dog or a wife" (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 11:25:22 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
> The Garmin Edge 830 has a few things you must remember about it. Firstly the common charging cable that comes with it is incompatible with others that appear the same. Although they allow charging they do not have the data lines necessary to connect the 830 to a home computer. This isn't a problem IF you have the 830 set up to WiFi data through your home network but the standard Garmin Express seems to block access to your WiFi unless you know your password. These days most people don't commonly memorize their passwords and use wildly different passwords since Windows normally memorizes them for you and you don't want one password for something jeopardizing that of some more important access such as your bank account or whatever.
>
> Playing around with Garmin Express I finally got it to register my new 830 after a very painful long production that was based mostly on the fact that 1. You need the updated software package on your computer and you phone needs to have Garmin Connect app on it and you have to follow the procedures. This brought the 830 into the fold.
>
> But it still wouldn't change display windows as it showed in the video I watched. I suppose that they assumed that you were already in setup and the setup window of course looks identical to the normal data window. Once that was straighten out I got the data windows setup the way I wanted them. I will still have to test it all after a ride but it is supposed to download from the 830 directly into the computer via the BlueTooth link and you would use the cable only for charging.
>
> This all would have been a lot less painful if they included a manual or at least a paper with the website on it where the on-line manual is located.. Being a bit old fashion I don't think it is fashionable to look for everything via Google and then sort through all of the entries to discover the one which will fill your needs and which always turns out to be the wrong one. If you hit the one of a million entries that says "Garmin Connect" it starts up a Garmin connect elsewhere that runs on your home computer. Maybe some people find that helpful because they don't have enough storage space. But I don't much care for everyone and his brother knowing what I am doing at any time.
>
> In any case, the 830 is now registered and setup.
>
> Here is a question in case any of you have an answer: The bottom of the 830 inside the twist connector has 4 electrical contacts. Does anyone know what this is for? Is there an accessory charger so that you simply put your 830 into a holder to charge rather than fighting that cable?
After going through the setup procedure with the Garmin support, somehow the battery life switch had been thrown, this had the absolutely bizarre effect of turning off the display unless you touched the screen and then it would remain on for about 10 seconds and go dark again. Easy enough to fix but I certainly don't remember having anything to do with that switch while setting it up. It isn't as if I need longer battery life. So perhaps one of the other changes caused that automatically. Once you know how to get into the Setup function it is easy to do just about anything with the Garmin.

On Sun, 13 Mar 2022 08:16:21 -0700 (PDT),
Tom Kunich <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 11:25:22 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > The Garmin Edge 830 has a few things you must remember...

> > This all would have been a lot less painful if they included a
> > manual or at least a paper with the website on it where the
> > on-line manual is located...

> > In any case, the 830 is now registered and setup.

> After going through the setup procedure with the Garmin
> support, somehow the battery life switch had been thrown, this
> had the absolutely bizarre effect of turning off the display
> unless you touched the screen and then it would remain on for
> about 10 seconds and go dark again. Easy enough to fix but I
> certainly don't remember having anything to do with that switch
> while setting it up. It isn't as if I need longer battery life.
> So perhaps one of the other changes caused that automatically.

Interesting. For me, it's often hard to keep track of all the
various options as I work through configuring things like this.
It's sometimes the case that I inadvertently change something I
didn't mean to when flailing about with other settings.

> Once you know how to get into the Setup function it is easy to
> do just about anything with the Garmin.

I agree. Some of the process and paradigms (like the use of
profiles as a top level organizational thing) are not intuitive
(at least to me), but there really is a great deal of flexibility.
My old etrex is even more highly configurable. Quite something,
really.

--
Ted Heise <theise@panix.com> West Lafayette, IN, USA

On Sunday, March 13, 2022 at 8:59:36 AM UTC-7, Ted Heise wrote:
> On Sun, 13 Mar 2022 08:16:21 -0700 (PDT),
> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 11:25:22 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > The Garmin Edge 830 has a few things you must remember...
> > > This all would have been a lot less painful if they included a
> > > manual or at least a paper with the website on it where the
> > > on-line manual is located...
> > > In any case, the 830 is now registered and setup.
> > After going through the setup procedure with the Garmin
> > support, somehow the battery life switch had been thrown, this
> > had the absolutely bizarre effect of turning off the display
> > unless you touched the screen and then it would remain on for
> > about 10 seconds and go dark again. Easy enough to fix but I
> > certainly don't remember having anything to do with that switch
> > while setting it up. It isn't as if I need longer battery life.
> > So perhaps one of the other changes caused that automatically.
> Interesting. For me, it's often hard to keep track of all the
> various options as I work through configuring things like this.
> It's sometimes the case that I inadvertently change something I
> didn't mean to when flailing about with other settings.
> > Once you know how to get into the Setup function it is easy to
> > do just about anything with the Garmin.
> I agree. Some of the process and paradigms (like the use of
> profiles as a top level organizational thing) are not intuitive
> (at least to me), but there really is a great deal of flexibility.
> My old etrex is even more highly configurable. Quite something,
> really.
> --
> Ted Heise <the...@panix.com> West Lafayette, IN, USA

Well, I would think that Garmin should realize who their major audience is and have a standard setup for them. There could be a pro setup and a sport setup. This would be quite easy to do with their system the way it is. This would be a very small change to their firmware. It is presently at 9.1 and the changes would not make a new version but a small change to the present version.