On 3/12/2022 8:33 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Saturday, March 12, 2022 at 4:55:47 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>> On Sat, 12 Mar 2022 19:45:36 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman
>> <ro...@sarlet.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>> On 3/12/2022 8:46 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Older roads tend to be steeper more direct, horse and cart can be pushed up
>>>>> the inclines, the advent of the motor car and its lack of power, triggered
>>>>> the switch back climbs being built vs just direct up!
>>>>
>>>> Interesting. Maybe 15 years ago on a solo ride, I came across a road
>>>> that's well within my riding territory, but that I'd somehow never
>>>> ridden. On turning a bend, I saw a fearsome looking climb - or rather, I
>>>> saw that the road must go up to the top of a very tall ridge; the road
>>>> itself wasn't visible through the trees.
>>>>
>>>> I very specifically thought "I'll be OK because it can't possibly go
>>>> straight up. This is an old road, and a horse pulling a wagon could
>>>> never make it straight up. There must be switchbacks."
>>>>
>>>> I was wrong. It was straight up. I don't know the grade, but I remember
>>>> being in my touring bike's granny gear and still needing to stand to
>>>> complete the climb.
>>>>
>>>> So I guess my "horse and wagon" thinking was backwards.
>>>>
>>> American maybe different, I assume native Americans had pack roads in
>>> places? But yes the old road ie few 1000 years old, often hug the ridge
>>> line and take a direct route, vs inclined routes that more modern roads
>>> use.
>>>
>>> Roger Merriman
>> I grew up in New Hampshire where certainly some roads dated back to
>> the 1700's and I don't remember any "switchback" roads. But equally
>> true roads didn't go up, or down, extreme slopes.There is always a way
>> around although it may be longer (:-)
>>
>> As for Native Americans, I doubt very much that prior to the invasion
>> of the Europeans that had anything more then foot paths as their only
>> "beast of burden" was a dog.
>> --
>> Cheers,
>>
>> John B.
>
> There weren't horses, mules, donkeys, oxen, cows in North America before Europeans brought them over in the 1600s when they found America? Had Native Americans invented wheels before Europeans brought them over to North America?
>

That's correct.
No wheels, virtually no metalworking, no draft animals
except llamas in the Andes. What was here was warfare
slavery and periodic starvation, just like everywhere else
(not an idyllic Eden).

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 3/12/2022 9:33 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Saturday, March 12, 2022 at 4:55:47 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>> On Sat, 12 Mar 2022 19:45:36 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman
>> <ro...@sarlet.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>> On 3/12/2022 8:46 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Older roads tend to be steeper more direct, horse and cart can be pushed up
>>>>> the inclines, the advent of the motor car and its lack of power, triggered
>>>>> the switch back climbs being built vs just direct up!
>>>>
>>>> Interesting. Maybe 15 years ago on a solo ride, I came across a road
>>>> that's well within my riding territory, but that I'd somehow never
>>>> ridden. On turning a bend, I saw a fearsome looking climb - or rather, I
>>>> saw that the road must go up to the top of a very tall ridge; the road
>>>> itself wasn't visible through the trees.
>>>>
>>>> I very specifically thought "I'll be OK because it can't possibly go
>>>> straight up. This is an old road, and a horse pulling a wagon could
>>>> never make it straight up. There must be switchbacks."
>>>>
>>>> I was wrong. It was straight up. I don't know the grade, but I remember
>>>> being in my touring bike's granny gear and still needing to stand to
>>>> complete the climb.
>>>>
>>>> So I guess my "horse and wagon" thinking was backwards.
>>>>
>>> American maybe different, I assume native Americans had pack roads in
>>> places? But yes the old road ie few 1000 years old, often hug the ridge
>>> line and take a direct route, vs inclined routes that more modern roads
>>> use.
>>>
>>> Roger Merriman
>> I grew up in New Hampshire where certainly some roads dated back to
>> the 1700's and I don't remember any "switchback" roads. But equally
>> true roads didn't go up, or down, extreme slopes.There is always a way
>> around although it may be longer (:-)
>>
>> As for Native Americans, I doubt very much that prior to the invasion
>> of the Europeans that had anything more then foot paths as their only
>> "beast of burden" was a dog.
>> --
>> Cheers,
>>
>> John B.
>
> There weren't horses, mules, donkeys, oxen, cows in North America before Europeans brought them over in the 1600s when they found America? Had Native Americans invented wheels before Europeans brought them over to North America?

There were none of those things.

We don't think of it that way, but it was still the Stone Age in
pre-Columbian North America. Pre-Columbian Indians (or whatever's the
correct term this week) had some limited use of copper, but typically
their tools were stone, not (say) bronze. They certainly had no iron or
steel. Also no wheels, etc. However, there were societies and trading
systems that were advanced in other ways.

Jared Diamond's book "Guns, Germs and Steel" is well worth reading.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Sunday, March 13, 2022 at 9:41:57 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 3/12/2022 8:33 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, March 12, 2022 at 4:55:47 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
> >> On Sat, 12 Mar 2022 19:45:36 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman
> >> <ro...@sarlet.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>>> On 3/12/2022 8:46 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Older roads tend to be steeper more direct, horse and cart can be pushed up
> >>>>> the inclines, the advent of the motor car and its lack of power, triggered
> >>>>> the switch back climbs being built vs just direct up!
> >>>>
> >>>> Interesting. Maybe 15 years ago on a solo ride, I came across a road
> >>>> that's well within my riding territory, but that I'd somehow never
> >>>> ridden. On turning a bend, I saw a fearsome looking climb - or rather, I
> >>>> saw that the road must go up to the top of a very tall ridge; the road
> >>>> itself wasn't visible through the trees.
> >>>>
> >>>> I very specifically thought "I'll be OK because it can't possibly go
> >>>> straight up. This is an old road, and a horse pulling a wagon could
> >>>> never make it straight up. There must be switchbacks."
> >>>>
> >>>> I was wrong. It was straight up. I don't know the grade, but I remember
> >>>> being in my touring bike's granny gear and still needing to stand to
> >>>> complete the climb.
> >>>>
> >>>> So I guess my "horse and wagon" thinking was backwards.
> >>>>
> >>> American maybe different, I assume native Americans had pack roads in
> >>> places? But yes the old road ie few 1000 years old, often hug the ridge
> >>> line and take a direct route, vs inclined routes that more modern roads
> >>> use.
> >>>
> >>> Roger Merriman
> >> I grew up in New Hampshire where certainly some roads dated back to
> >> the 1700's and I don't remember any "switchback" roads. But equally
> >> true roads didn't go up, or down, extreme slopes.There is always a way
> >> around although it may be longer (:-)
> >>
> >> As for Native Americans, I doubt very much that prior to the invasion
> >> of the Europeans that had anything more then foot paths as their only
> >> "beast of burden" was a dog.
> >> --
> >> Cheers,
> >>
> >> John B.
> >
> > There weren't horses, mules, donkeys, oxen, cows in North America before Europeans brought them over in the 1600s when they found America? Had Native Americans invented wheels before Europeans brought them over to North America?
> >
> That's correct.
> No wheels, virtually no metalworking, no draft animals
> except llamas in the Andes. What was here was warfare
> slavery and periodic starvation, just like everywhere else
> (not an idyllic Eden).

There has never been an organized government in the world that didn't have slavery as an intricate part of it until fossil fuels came along. So those who are anti-fossil fuel perhaps without knowing are pro-slavery.

On 3/13/2022 11:59 AM, Ted Heise wrote:
>
>
> I agree. Some of the process and paradigms (like the use of
> profiles as a top level organizational thing) are not intuitive
> (at least to me), but there really is a great deal of flexibility.
> My old etrex is even more highly configurable. Quite something,
> really.

Those sorts of Operator Interface problems seem common in lots of
programmable electronic devices. ISTM that the people doing the
interfaces are adequate at writing the underlying code, but often
terrible at presenting information or choices in a sensible way.

It makes me think that programming curricula need to add some Human
Factors requirements.

But that will help only those programmers who actually get formal
educations. I don't know if that's even the majority these days. I know
a couple people working heavily to promote "Coding Boot Camps." The idea
seems to be "Just quickly learn the basics and get a job!"

I'm afraid a lot will be left out. :-(

--
- Frank Krygowski

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 3/12/2022 9:33 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>> On Saturday, March 12, 2022 at 4:55:47 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>>> On Sat, 12 Mar 2022 19:45:36 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman
>>> <ro...@sarlet.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>> On 3/12/2022 8:46 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Older roads tend to be steeper more direct, horse and cart can be pushed up
>>>>>> the inclines, the advent of the motor car and its lack of power, triggered
>>>>>> the switch back climbs being built vs just direct up!
>>>>>
>>>>> Interesting. Maybe 15 years ago on a solo ride, I came across a road
>>>>> that's well within my riding territory, but that I'd somehow never
>>>>> ridden. On turning a bend, I saw a fearsome looking climb - or rather, I
>>>>> saw that the road must go up to the top of a very tall ridge; the road
>>>>> itself wasn't visible through the trees.
>>>>>
>>>>> I very specifically thought "I'll be OK because it can't possibly go
>>>>> straight up. This is an old road, and a horse pulling a wagon could
>>>>> never make it straight up. There must be switchbacks."
>>>>>
>>>>> I was wrong. It was straight up. I don't know the grade, but I remember
>>>>> being in my touring bike's granny gear and still needing to stand to
>>>>> complete the climb.
>>>>>
>>>>> So I guess my "horse and wagon" thinking was backwards.
>>>>>
>>>> American maybe different, I assume native Americans had pack roads in
>>>> places? But yes the old road ie few 1000 years old, often hug the ridge
>>>> line and take a direct route, vs inclined routes that more modern roads
>>>> use.
>>>>
>>>> Roger Merriman
>>> I grew up in New Hampshire where certainly some roads dated back to
>>> the 1700's and I don't remember any "switchback" roads. But equally
>>> true roads didn't go up, or down, extreme slopes.There is always a way
>>> around although it may be longer (:-)
>>>
>>> As for Native Americans, I doubt very much that prior to the invasion
>>> of the Europeans that had anything more then foot paths as their only
>>> "beast of burden" was a dog.
>>> --
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> John B.
>>
>> There weren't horses, mules, donkeys, oxen, cows in North America before
>> Europeans brought them over in the 1600s when they found America? Had
>> Native Americans invented wheels before Europeans brought them over to North America?
>
> There were none of those things.
>
> We don't think of it that way, but it was still the Stone Age in
> pre-Columbian North America. Pre-Columbian Indians (or whatever's the
> correct term this week) had some limited use of copper, but typically
> their tools were stone, not (say) bronze. They certainly had no iron or
> steel. Also no wheels, etc. However, there were societies and trading
> systems that were advanced in other ways.
>
> Jared Diamond's book "Guns, Germs and Steel" is well worth reading.
>
Indeed!

Roger Merriman

On Sunday, March 13, 2022 at 11:29:11 AM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > On 3/12/2022 9:33 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >> On Saturday, March 12, 2022 at 4:55:47 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
> >>> On Sat, 12 Mar 2022 19:45:36 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman
> >>> <ro...@sarlet.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>>>> On 3/12/2022 8:46 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Older roads tend to be steeper more direct, horse and cart can be pushed up
> >>>>>> the inclines, the advent of the motor car and its lack of power, triggered
> >>>>>> the switch back climbs being built vs just direct up!
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Interesting. Maybe 15 years ago on a solo ride, I came across a road
> >>>>> that's well within my riding territory, but that I'd somehow never
> >>>>> ridden. On turning a bend, I saw a fearsome looking climb - or rather, I
> >>>>> saw that the road must go up to the top of a very tall ridge; the road
> >>>>> itself wasn't visible through the trees.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I very specifically thought "I'll be OK because it can't possibly go
> >>>>> straight up. This is an old road, and a horse pulling a wagon could
> >>>>> never make it straight up. There must be switchbacks."
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I was wrong. It was straight up. I don't know the grade, but I remember
> >>>>> being in my touring bike's granny gear and still needing to stand to
> >>>>> complete the climb.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> So I guess my "horse and wagon" thinking was backwards.
> >>>>>
> >>>> American maybe different, I assume native Americans had pack roads in
> >>>> places? But yes the old road ie few 1000 years old, often hug the ridge
> >>>> line and take a direct route, vs inclined routes that more modern roads
> >>>> use.
> >>>>
> >>>> Roger Merriman
> >>> I grew up in New Hampshire where certainly some roads dated back to
> >>> the 1700's and I don't remember any "switchback" roads. But equally
> >>> true roads didn't go up, or down, extreme slopes.There is always a way
> >>> around although it may be longer (:-)
> >>>
> >>> As for Native Americans, I doubt very much that prior to the invasion
> >>> of the Europeans that had anything more then foot paths as their only
> >>> "beast of burden" was a dog.
> >>> --
> >>> Cheers,
> >>>
> >>> John B.
> >>
> >> There weren't horses, mules, donkeys, oxen, cows in North America before
> >> Europeans brought them over in the 1600s when they found America? Had
> >> Native Americans invented wheels before Europeans brought them over to North America?
> >
> > There were none of those things.
> >
> > We don't think of it that way, but it was still the Stone Age in
> > pre-Columbian North America. Pre-Columbian Indians (or whatever's the
> > correct term this week) had some limited use of copper, but typically
> > their tools were stone, not (say) bronze. They certainly had no iron or
> > steel. Also no wheels, etc. However, there were societies and trading
> > systems that were advanced in other ways.
> >
> > Jared Diamond's book "Guns, Germs and Steel" is well worth reading.
> >
> Indeed!

Is this the book that the PBS series was based upon that claimed the Columbus purposely infected the New World with old world diseases?

On 3/13/2022 2:13 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Sunday, March 13, 2022 at 11:29:11 AM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> On 3/12/2022 9:33 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>> On Saturday, March 12, 2022 at 4:55:47 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 12 Mar 2022 19:45:36 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman
>>>>> <ro...@sarlet.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/12/2022 8:46 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Older roads tend to be steeper more direct, horse and cart can be pushed up
>>>>>>>> the inclines, the advent of the motor car and its lack of power, triggered
>>>>>>>> the switch back climbs being built vs just direct up!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Interesting. Maybe 15 years ago on a solo ride, I came across a road
>>>>>>> that's well within my riding territory, but that I'd somehow never
>>>>>>> ridden. On turning a bend, I saw a fearsome looking climb - or rather, I
>>>>>>> saw that the road must go up to the top of a very tall ridge; the road
>>>>>>> itself wasn't visible through the trees.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I very specifically thought "I'll be OK because it can't possibly go
>>>>>>> straight up. This is an old road, and a horse pulling a wagon could
>>>>>>> never make it straight up. There must be switchbacks."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I was wrong. It was straight up. I don't know the grade, but I remember
>>>>>>> being in my touring bike's granny gear and still needing to stand to
>>>>>>> complete the climb.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So I guess my "horse and wagon" thinking was backwards.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> American maybe different, I assume native Americans had pack roads in
>>>>>> places? But yes the old road ie few 1000 years old, often hug the ridge
>>>>>> line and take a direct route, vs inclined routes that more modern roads
>>>>>> use.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>> I grew up in New Hampshire where certainly some roads dated back to
>>>>> the 1700's and I don't remember any "switchback" roads. But equally
>>>>> true roads didn't go up, or down, extreme slopes.There is always a way
>>>>> around although it may be longer (:-)
>>>>>
>>>>> As for Native Americans, I doubt very much that prior to the invasion
>>>>> of the Europeans that had anything more then foot paths as their only
>>>>> "beast of burden" was a dog.
>>>>> --
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>
>>>>> John B.
>>>>
>>>> There weren't horses, mules, donkeys, oxen, cows in North America before
>>>> Europeans brought them over in the 1600s when they found America? Had
>>>> Native Americans invented wheels before Europeans brought them over to North America?
>>>
>>> There were none of those things.
>>>
>>> We don't think of it that way, but it was still the Stone Age in
>>> pre-Columbian North America. Pre-Columbian Indians (or whatever's the
>>> correct term this week) had some limited use of copper, but typically
>>> their tools were stone, not (say) bronze. They certainly had no iron or
>>> steel. Also no wheels, etc. However, there were societies and trading
>>> systems that were advanced in other ways.
>>>
>>> Jared Diamond's book "Guns, Germs and Steel" is well worth reading.
>>>
>> Indeed!
>
> Is this the book that the PBS series was based upon that claimed the Columbus purposely infected the New World with old world diseases?
>

Interpretation of 'intentional' may vary.

Lousy trade both ways -Europeans brought back syphilis which
is similar but not the same as yaws, a less serious endemic
disease of Africa/Europe.

There's also a large body of work on the social/political
effects of malaria from 1500 onwards.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 3/13/2022 3:13 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Sunday, March 13, 2022 at 11:29:11 AM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> On 3/12/2022 9:33 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>> On Saturday, March 12, 2022 at 4:55:47 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 12 Mar 2022 19:45:36 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman
>>>>> <ro...@sarlet.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/12/2022 8:46 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Older roads tend to be steeper more direct, horse and cart can be pushed up
>>>>>>>> the inclines, the advent of the motor car and its lack of power, triggered
>>>>>>>> the switch back climbs being built vs just direct up!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Interesting. Maybe 15 years ago on a solo ride, I came across a road
>>>>>>> that's well within my riding territory, but that I'd somehow never
>>>>>>> ridden. On turning a bend, I saw a fearsome looking climb - or rather, I
>>>>>>> saw that the road must go up to the top of a very tall ridge; the road
>>>>>>> itself wasn't visible through the trees.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I very specifically thought "I'll be OK because it can't possibly go
>>>>>>> straight up. This is an old road, and a horse pulling a wagon could
>>>>>>> never make it straight up. There must be switchbacks."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I was wrong. It was straight up. I don't know the grade, but I remember
>>>>>>> being in my touring bike's granny gear and still needing to stand to
>>>>>>> complete the climb.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So I guess my "horse and wagon" thinking was backwards.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> American maybe different, I assume native Americans had pack roads in
>>>>>> places? But yes the old road ie few 1000 years old, often hug the ridge
>>>>>> line and take a direct route, vs inclined routes that more modern roads
>>>>>> use.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>> I grew up in New Hampshire where certainly some roads dated back to
>>>>> the 1700's and I don't remember any "switchback" roads. But equally
>>>>> true roads didn't go up, or down, extreme slopes.There is always a way
>>>>> around although it may be longer (:-)
>>>>>
>>>>> As for Native Americans, I doubt very much that prior to the invasion
>>>>> of the Europeans that had anything more then foot paths as their only
>>>>> "beast of burden" was a dog.
>>>>> --
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>
>>>>> John B.
>>>>
>>>> There weren't horses, mules, donkeys, oxen, cows in North America before
>>>> Europeans brought them over in the 1600s when they found America? Had
>>>> Native Americans invented wheels before Europeans brought them over to North America?
>>>
>>> There were none of those things.
>>>
>>> We don't think of it that way, but it was still the Stone Age in
>>> pre-Columbian North America. Pre-Columbian Indians (or whatever's the
>>> correct term this week) had some limited use of copper, but typically
>>> their tools were stone, not (say) bronze. They certainly had no iron or
>>> steel. Also no wheels, etc. However, there were societies and trading
>>> systems that were advanced in other ways.
>>>
>>> Jared Diamond's book "Guns, Germs and Steel" is well worth reading.
>>>
>> Indeed!
>
> Is this the book that the PBS series was based upon that claimed the Columbus purposely infected the New World with old world diseases?

<sigh> No, Tom.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Tom Kunich <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sunday, March 13, 2022 at 11:29:11 AM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> On 3/12/2022 9:33 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>> On Saturday, March 12, 2022 at 4:55:47 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 12 Mar 2022 19:45:36 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman
>>>>> <ro...@sarlet.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/12/2022 8:46 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Older roads tend to be steeper more direct, horse and cart can be pushed up
>>>>>>>> the inclines, the advent of the motor car and its lack of power, triggered
>>>>>>>> the switch back climbs being built vs just direct up!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Interesting. Maybe 15 years ago on a solo ride, I came across a road
>>>>>>> that's well within my riding territory, but that I'd somehow never
>>>>>>> ridden. On turning a bend, I saw a fearsome looking climb - or rather, I
>>>>>>> saw that the road must go up to the top of a very tall ridge; the road
>>>>>>> itself wasn't visible through the trees.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I very specifically thought "I'll be OK because it can't possibly go
>>>>>>> straight up. This is an old road, and a horse pulling a wagon could
>>>>>>> never make it straight up. There must be switchbacks."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I was wrong. It was straight up. I don't know the grade, but I remember
>>>>>>> being in my touring bike's granny gear and still needing to stand to
>>>>>>> complete the climb.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So I guess my "horse and wagon" thinking was backwards.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> American maybe different, I assume native Americans had pack roads in
>>>>>> places? But yes the old road ie few 1000 years old, often hug the ridge
>>>>>> line and take a direct route, vs inclined routes that more modern roads
>>>>>> use.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>> I grew up in New Hampshire where certainly some roads dated back to
>>>>> the 1700's and I don't remember any "switchback" roads. But equally
>>>>> true roads didn't go up, or down, extreme slopes.There is always a way
>>>>> around although it may be longer (:-)
>>>>>
>>>>> As for Native Americans, I doubt very much that prior to the invasion
>>>>> of the Europeans that had anything more then foot paths as their only
>>>>> "beast of burden" was a dog.
>>>>> --
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>
>>>>> John B.
>>>>
>>>> There weren't horses, mules, donkeys, oxen, cows in North America before
>>>> Europeans brought them over in the 1600s when they found America? Had
>>>> Native Americans invented wheels before Europeans brought them over to North America?
>>>
>>> There were none of those things.
>>>
>>> We don't think of it that way, but it was still the Stone Age in
>>> pre-Columbian North America. Pre-Columbian Indians (or whatever's the
>>> correct term this week) had some limited use of copper, but typically
>>> their tools were stone, not (say) bronze. They certainly had no iron or
>>> steel. Also no wheels, etc. However, there were societies and trading
>>> systems that were advanced in other ways.
>>>
>>> Jared Diamond's book "Guns, Germs and Steel" is well worth reading.
>>>
>> Indeed!
>
> Is this the book that the PBS series was based upon that claimed the
> Columbus purposely infected the New World with old world diseases?
>
Been a long time since I read the book, but I don’t recall purposely, after
all they didn’t know what caused infection at that point

Roger Merriman

On Sunday, March 13, 2022 at 4:27:36 PM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Sunday, March 13, 2022 at 11:29:11 AM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>> On 3/12/2022 9:33 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>>> On Saturday, March 12, 2022 at 4:55:47 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
> >>>>> On Sat, 12 Mar 2022 19:45:36 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman
> >>>>> <ro...@sarlet.com> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>>>>>> On 3/12/2022 8:46 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Older roads tend to be steeper more direct, horse and cart can be pushed up
> >>>>>>>> the inclines, the advent of the motor car and its lack of power, triggered
> >>>>>>>> the switch back climbs being built vs just direct up!
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Interesting. Maybe 15 years ago on a solo ride, I came across a road
> >>>>>>> that's well within my riding territory, but that I'd somehow never
> >>>>>>> ridden. On turning a bend, I saw a fearsome looking climb - or rather, I
> >>>>>>> saw that the road must go up to the top of a very tall ridge; the road
> >>>>>>> itself wasn't visible through the trees.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I very specifically thought "I'll be OK because it can't possibly go
> >>>>>>> straight up. This is an old road, and a horse pulling a wagon could
> >>>>>>> never make it straight up. There must be switchbacks."
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I was wrong. It was straight up. I don't know the grade, but I remember
> >>>>>>> being in my touring bike's granny gear and still needing to stand to
> >>>>>>> complete the climb.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> So I guess my "horse and wagon" thinking was backwards.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> American maybe different, I assume native Americans had pack roads in
> >>>>>> places? But yes the old road ie few 1000 years old, often hug the ridge
> >>>>>> line and take a direct route, vs inclined routes that more modern roads
> >>>>>> use.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Roger Merriman
> >>>>> I grew up in New Hampshire where certainly some roads dated back to
> >>>>> the 1700's and I don't remember any "switchback" roads. But equally
> >>>>> true roads didn't go up, or down, extreme slopes.There is always a way
> >>>>> around although it may be longer (:-)
> >>>>>
> >>>>> As for Native Americans, I doubt very much that prior to the invasion
> >>>>> of the Europeans that had anything more then foot paths as their only
> >>>>> "beast of burden" was a dog.
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> John B.
> >>>>
> >>>> There weren't horses, mules, donkeys, oxen, cows in North America before
> >>>> Europeans brought them over in the 1600s when they found America? Had
> >>>> Native Americans invented wheels before Europeans brought them over to North America?
> >>>
> >>> There were none of those things.
> >>>
> >>> We don't think of it that way, but it was still the Stone Age in
> >>> pre-Columbian North America. Pre-Columbian Indians (or whatever's the
> >>> correct term this week) had some limited use of copper, but typically
> >>> their tools were stone, not (say) bronze. They certainly had no iron or
> >>> steel. Also no wheels, etc. However, there were societies and trading
> >>> systems that were advanced in other ways.
> >>>
> >>> Jared Diamond's book "Guns, Germs and Steel" is well worth reading.
> >>>
> >> Indeed!
> >
> > Is this the book that the PBS series was based upon that claimed the
> > Columbus purposely infected the New World with old world diseases?
> >
> Been a long time since I read the book, but I don’t recall purposely, after
> all they didn’t know what caused infection at that point

They didn't know what caused it but they know about "contagion" from before the 14th Century. But it would have been ridiculous for anyone to believe that a disease that did not show on people could infect others that had never been exposed to it.

So the problem wasn't that Columbus or any of his crew did this or that but that the Woke people claimed it so.

On Sun, 13 Mar 2022 10:07:47 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, March 13, 2022 at 9:41:57 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 3/12/2022 8:33 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> > On Saturday, March 12, 2022 at 4:55:47 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>> >> On Sat, 12 Mar 2022 19:45:36 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman
>> >> <ro...@sarlet.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> >>>> On 3/12/2022 8:46 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Older roads tend to be steeper more direct, horse and cart can be pushed up
>> >>>>> the inclines, the advent of the motor car and its lack of power, triggered
>> >>>>> the switch back climbs being built vs just direct up!
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Interesting. Maybe 15 years ago on a solo ride, I came across a road
>> >>>> that's well within my riding territory, but that I'd somehow never
>> >>>> ridden. On turning a bend, I saw a fearsome looking climb - or rather, I
>> >>>> saw that the road must go up to the top of a very tall ridge; the road
>> >>>> itself wasn't visible through the trees.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I very specifically thought "I'll be OK because it can't possibly go
>> >>>> straight up. This is an old road, and a horse pulling a wagon could
>> >>>> never make it straight up. There must be switchbacks."
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I was wrong. It was straight up. I don't know the grade, but I remember
>> >>>> being in my touring bike's granny gear and still needing to stand to
>> >>>> complete the climb.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> So I guess my "horse and wagon" thinking was backwards.
>> >>>>
>> >>> American maybe different, I assume native Americans had pack roads in
>> >>> places? But yes the old road ie few 1000 years old, often hug the ridge
>> >>> line and take a direct route, vs inclined routes that more modern roads
>> >>> use.
>> >>>
>> >>> Roger Merriman
>> >> I grew up in New Hampshire where certainly some roads dated back to
>> >> the 1700's and I don't remember any "switchback" roads. But equally
>> >> true roads didn't go up, or down, extreme slopes.There is always a way
>> >> around although it may be longer (:-)
>> >>
>> >> As for Native Americans, I doubt very much that prior to the invasion
>> >> of the Europeans that had anything more then foot paths as their only
>> >> "beast of burden" was a dog.
>> >> --
>> >> Cheers,
>> >>
>> >> John B.
>> >
>> > There weren't horses, mules, donkeys, oxen, cows in North America before Europeans brought them over in the 1600s when they found America? Had Native Americans invented wheels before Europeans brought them over to North America?
>> >
>> That's correct.
>> No wheels, virtually no metalworking, no draft animals
>> except llamas in the Andes. What was here was warfare
>> slavery and periodic starvation, just like everywhere else
>> (not an idyllic Eden).
>
>There has never been an organized government in the world that didn't have slavery as an intricate part of it until fossil fuels came along. So those who are anti-fossil fuel perhaps without knowing are pro-slavery.

But Tommy, fossil fuel was used as much as 3,000 years ago. You mean
that slavery ended 3,000 years ago, in Europe?
https://www.haaretz.com/archaeology/MAGAZINE-archaeologists-identify-oldest-use-of-fossil-fuels-in-europe-1.10480844

Can it be? that the indomitable Tommy is wrong.... again?

(My spell checker is off line, should that have been spelled
"abominable"?)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 3/13/2022 7:41 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Sunday, March 13, 2022 at 4:27:36 PM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Sunday, March 13, 2022 at 11:29:11 AM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>> On 3/12/2022 9:33 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Saturday, March 12, 2022 at 4:55:47 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sat, 12 Mar 2022 19:45:36 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman
>>>>>>> <ro...@sarlet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 3/12/2022 8:46 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Older roads tend to be steeper more direct, horse and cart can be pushed up
>>>>>>>>>> the inclines, the advent of the motor car and its lack of power, triggered
>>>>>>>>>> the switch back climbs being built vs just direct up!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Interesting. Maybe 15 years ago on a solo ride, I came across a road
>>>>>>>>> that's well within my riding territory, but that I'd somehow never
>>>>>>>>> ridden. On turning a bend, I saw a fearsome looking climb - or rather, I
>>>>>>>>> saw that the road must go up to the top of a very tall ridge; the road
>>>>>>>>> itself wasn't visible through the trees.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I very specifically thought "I'll be OK because it can't possibly go
>>>>>>>>> straight up. This is an old road, and a horse pulling a wagon could
>>>>>>>>> never make it straight up. There must be switchbacks."
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I was wrong. It was straight up. I don't know the grade, but I remember
>>>>>>>>> being in my touring bike's granny gear and still needing to stand to
>>>>>>>>> complete the climb.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So I guess my "horse and wagon" thinking was backwards.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> American maybe different, I assume native Americans had pack roads in
>>>>>>>> places? But yes the old road ie few 1000 years old, often hug the ridge
>>>>>>>> line and take a direct route, vs inclined routes that more modern roads
>>>>>>>> use.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>>>> I grew up in New Hampshire where certainly some roads dated back to
>>>>>>> the 1700's and I don't remember any "switchback" roads. But equally
>>>>>>> true roads didn't go up, or down, extreme slopes.There is always a way
>>>>>>> around although it may be longer (:-)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As for Native Americans, I doubt very much that prior to the invasion
>>>>>>> of the Europeans that had anything more then foot paths as their only
>>>>>>> "beast of burden" was a dog.
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> John B.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There weren't horses, mules, donkeys, oxen, cows in North America before
>>>>>> Europeans brought them over in the 1600s when they found America? Had
>>>>>> Native Americans invented wheels before Europeans brought them over to North America?
>>>>>
>>>>> There were none of those things.
>>>>>
>>>>> We don't think of it that way, but it was still the Stone Age in
>>>>> pre-Columbian North America. Pre-Columbian Indians (or whatever's the
>>>>> correct term this week) had some limited use of copper, but typically
>>>>> their tools were stone, not (say) bronze. They certainly had no iron or
>>>>> steel. Also no wheels, etc. However, there were societies and trading
>>>>> systems that were advanced in other ways.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jared Diamond's book "Guns, Germs and Steel" is well worth reading.
>>>>>
>>>> Indeed!
>>>
>>> Is this the book that the PBS series was based upon that claimed the
>>> Columbus purposely infected the New World with old world diseases?
>>>
>> Been a long time since I read the book, but I don’t recall purposely, after
>> all they didn’t know what caused infection at that point
>
> They didn't know what caused it but they know about "contagion" from before the 14th Century. But it would have been ridiculous for anyone to believe that a disease that did not show on people could infect others that had never been exposed to it.
>
> So the problem wasn't that Columbus or any of his crew did this or that but that the Woke people claimed it so.

Please give a direct quote of a reputable historic source that says what
you claimed.

Or to be more blunt: Stop arguing against what you wish people said. Pay
attention to what they've actually said. Take notes so you can tell the
difference, because your "memory" isn't working.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 3/13/2022 9:10 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 3/13/2022 7:41 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> On Sunday, March 13, 2022 at 4:27:36 PM UTC-7, Roger
>> Merriman wrote:
>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Sunday, March 13, 2022 at 11:29:11 AM UTC-7, Roger
>>>> Merriman wrote:
>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/12/2022 9:33 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>>> On Saturday, March 12, 2022 at 4:55:47 PM UTC-6, John
>>>>>>> B. wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Sat, 12 Mar 2022 19:45:36 -0000 (UTC), Roger
>>>>>>>> Merriman
>>>>>>>> <ro...@sarlet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 3/12/2022 8:46 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Older roads tend to be steeper more direct, horse
>>>>>>>>>>> and cart can be pushed up
>>>>>>>>>>> the inclines, the advent of the motor car and its
>>>>>>>>>>> lack of power, triggered
>>>>>>>>>>> the switch back climbs being built vs just direct
>>>>>>>>>>> up!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Interesting. Maybe 15 years ago on a solo ride, I
>>>>>>>>>> came across a road
>>>>>>>>>> that's well within my riding territory, but that
>>>>>>>>>> I'd somehow never
>>>>>>>>>> ridden. On turning a bend, I saw a fearsome
>>>>>>>>>> looking climb - or rather, I
>>>>>>>>>> saw that the road must go up to the top of a very
>>>>>>>>>> tall ridge; the road
>>>>>>>>>> itself wasn't visible through the trees.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I very specifically thought "I'll be OK because it
>>>>>>>>>> can't possibly go
>>>>>>>>>> straight up. This is an old road, and a horse
>>>>>>>>>> pulling a wagon could
>>>>>>>>>> never make it straight up. There must be
>>>>>>>>>> switchbacks."
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I was wrong. It was straight up. I don't know the
>>>>>>>>>> grade, but I remember
>>>>>>>>>> being in my touring bike's granny gear and still
>>>>>>>>>> needing to stand to
>>>>>>>>>> complete the climb.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> So I guess my "horse and wagon" thinking was
>>>>>>>>>> backwards.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> American maybe different, I assume native Americans
>>>>>>>>> had pack roads in
>>>>>>>>> places? But yes the old road ie few 1000 years old,
>>>>>>>>> often hug the ridge
>>>>>>>>> line and take a direct route, vs inclined routes
>>>>>>>>> that more modern roads
>>>>>>>>> use.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>>>>> I grew up in New Hampshire where certainly some
>>>>>>>> roads dated back to
>>>>>>>> the 1700's and I don't remember any "switchback"
>>>>>>>> roads. But equally
>>>>>>>> true roads didn't go up, or down, extreme
>>>>>>>> slopes.There is always a way
>>>>>>>> around although it may be longer (:-)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As for Native Americans, I doubt very much that
>>>>>>>> prior to the invasion
>>>>>>>> of the Europeans that had anything more then foot
>>>>>>>> paths as their only
>>>>>>>> "beast of burden" was a dog.
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> John B.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There weren't horses, mules, donkeys, oxen, cows in
>>>>>>> North America before
>>>>>>> Europeans brought them over in the 1600s when they
>>>>>>> found America? Had
>>>>>>> Native Americans invented wheels before Europeans
>>>>>>> brought them over to North America?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There were none of those things.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We don't think of it that way, but it was still the
>>>>>> Stone Age in
>>>>>> pre-Columbian North America. Pre-Columbian Indians (or
>>>>>> whatever's the
>>>>>> correct term this week) had some limited use of
>>>>>> copper, but typically
>>>>>> their tools were stone, not (say) bronze. They
>>>>>> certainly had no iron or
>>>>>> steel. Also no wheels, etc. However, there were
>>>>>> societies and trading
>>>>>> systems that were advanced in other ways.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jared Diamond's book "Guns, Germs and Steel" is well
>>>>>> worth reading.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Indeed!
>>>>
>>>> Is this the book that the PBS series was based upon that
>>>> claimed the
>>>> Columbus purposely infected the New World with old world
>>>> diseases?
>>>>
>>> Been a long time since I read the book, but I don’t
>>> recall purposely, after
>>> all they didn’t know what caused infection at that point
>>
>> They didn't know what caused it but they know about
>> "contagion" from before the 14th Century. But it would
>> have been ridiculous for anyone to believe that a disease
>> that did not show on people could infect others that had
>> never been exposed to it.
>>
>> So the problem wasn't that Columbus or any of his crew did
>> this or that but that the Woke people claimed it so.
>
> Please give a direct quote of a reputable historic source
> that says what you claimed.
>
> Or to be more blunt: Stop arguing against what you wish
> people said. Pay attention to what they've actually said.
> Take notes so you can tell the difference, because your
> "memory" isn't working.
>

A University if not The University at Columbus Ohio.

https://u.osu.edu/posterchildchristophercolumbus/villain-columbus/

Under the heading 'Villain Columbus' we read, "Thousands of
them were killed either by disease, by overworking or by the
hands of Columbus and his men."

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> On 3/13/2022 9:10 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 3/13/2022 7:41 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> On Sunday, March 13, 2022 at 4:27:36 PM UTC-7, Roger
>>> Merriman wrote:
>>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Sunday, March 13, 2022 at 11:29:11 AM UTC-7, Roger
>>>>> Merriman wrote:
>>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/12/2022 9:33 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Saturday, March 12, 2022 at 4:55:47 PM UTC-6, John
>>>>>>>> B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 12 Mar 2022 19:45:36 -0000 (UTC), Roger
>>>>>>>>> Merriman
>>>>>>>>> <ro...@sarlet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/12/2022 8:46 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Older roads tend to be steeper more direct, horse
>>>>>>>>>>>> and cart can be pushed up
>>>>>>>>>>>> the inclines, the advent of the motor car and its
>>>>>>>>>>>> lack of power, triggered
>>>>>>>>>>>> the switch back climbs being built vs just direct
>>>>>>>>>>>> up!
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Interesting. Maybe 15 years ago on a solo ride, I
>>>>>>>>>>> came across a road
>>>>>>>>>>> that's well within my riding territory, but that
>>>>>>>>>>> I'd somehow never
>>>>>>>>>>> ridden. On turning a bend, I saw a fearsome
>>>>>>>>>>> looking climb - or rather, I
>>>>>>>>>>> saw that the road must go up to the top of a very
>>>>>>>>>>> tall ridge; the road
>>>>>>>>>>> itself wasn't visible through the trees.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I very specifically thought "I'll be OK because it
>>>>>>>>>>> can't possibly go
>>>>>>>>>>> straight up. This is an old road, and a horse
>>>>>>>>>>> pulling a wagon could
>>>>>>>>>>> never make it straight up. There must be
>>>>>>>>>>> switchbacks."
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I was wrong. It was straight up. I don't know the
>>>>>>>>>>> grade, but I remember
>>>>>>>>>>> being in my touring bike's granny gear and still
>>>>>>>>>>> needing to stand to
>>>>>>>>>>> complete the climb.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> So I guess my "horse and wagon" thinking was
>>>>>>>>>>> backwards.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> American maybe different, I assume native Americans
>>>>>>>>>> had pack roads in
>>>>>>>>>> places? But yes the old road ie few 1000 years old,
>>>>>>>>>> often hug the ridge
>>>>>>>>>> line and take a direct route, vs inclined routes
>>>>>>>>>> that more modern roads
>>>>>>>>>> use.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>>>>>> I grew up in New Hampshire where certainly some
>>>>>>>>> roads dated back to
>>>>>>>>> the 1700's and I don't remember any "switchback"
>>>>>>>>> roads. But equally
>>>>>>>>> true roads didn't go up, or down, extreme
>>>>>>>>> slopes.There is always a way
>>>>>>>>> around although it may be longer (:-)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As for Native Americans, I doubt very much that
>>>>>>>>> prior to the invasion
>>>>>>>>> of the Europeans that had anything more then foot
>>>>>>>>> paths as their only
>>>>>>>>> "beast of burden" was a dog.
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> John B.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There weren't horses, mules, donkeys, oxen, cows in
>>>>>>>> North America before
>>>>>>>> Europeans brought them over in the 1600s when they
>>>>>>>> found America? Had
>>>>>>>> Native Americans invented wheels before Europeans
>>>>>>>> brought them over to North America?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There were none of those things.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We don't think of it that way, but it was still the
>>>>>>> Stone Age in
>>>>>>> pre-Columbian North America. Pre-Columbian Indians (or
>>>>>>> whatever's the
>>>>>>> correct term this week) had some limited use of
>>>>>>> copper, but typically
>>>>>>> their tools were stone, not (say) bronze. They
>>>>>>> certainly had no iron or
>>>>>>> steel. Also no wheels, etc. However, there were
>>>>>>> societies and trading
>>>>>>> systems that were advanced in other ways.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jared Diamond's book "Guns, Germs and Steel" is well
>>>>>>> worth reading.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Indeed!
>>>>>
>>>>> Is this the book that the PBS series was based upon that
>>>>> claimed the
>>>>> Columbus purposely infected the New World with old world
>>>>> diseases?
>>>>>
>>>> Been a long time since I read the book, but I don’t
>>>> recall purposely, after
>>>> all they didn’t know what caused infection at that point
>>>
>>> They didn't know what caused it but they know about
>>> "contagion" from before the 14th Century. But it would
>>> have been ridiculous for anyone to believe that a disease
>>> that did not show on people could infect others that had
>>> never been exposed to it.
>>>
>>> So the problem wasn't that Columbus or any of his crew did
>>> this or that but that the Woke people claimed it so.
>>
>> Please give a direct quote of a reputable historic source
>> that says what you claimed.
>>
>> Or to be more blunt: Stop arguing against what you wish
>> people said. Pay attention to what they've actually said.
>> Take notes so you can tell the difference, because your
>> "memory" isn't working.
>>
>
> A University if not The University at Columbus Ohio.
>
> https://u.osu.edu/posterchildchristophercolumbus/villain-columbus/
>
> Under the heading 'Villain Columbus' we read, "Thousands of
> them were killed either by disease, by overworking or by the
> hands of Columbus and his men."
>
>
Indeed, but realistically the disease isn’t deliberate, and frankly sins of
your father only go so far.

Roger Merriman

On Sunday, March 13, 2022 at 7:37:11 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 3/13/2022 9:10 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 3/13/2022 7:41 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >> On Sunday, March 13, 2022 at 4:27:36 PM UTC-7, Roger
> >> Merriman wrote:
> >>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> On Sunday, March 13, 2022 at 11:29:11 AM UTC-7, Roger
> >>>> Merriman wrote:
> >>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>>>>> On 3/12/2022 9:33 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Saturday, March 12, 2022 at 4:55:47 PM UTC-6, John
> >>>>>>> B. wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On Sat, 12 Mar 2022 19:45:36 -0000 (UTC), Roger
> >>>>>>>> Merriman
> >>>>>>>> <ro...@sarlet.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> On 3/12/2022 8:46 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Older roads tend to be steeper more direct, horse
> >>>>>>>>>>> and cart can be pushed up
> >>>>>>>>>>> the inclines, the advent of the motor car and its
> >>>>>>>>>>> lack of power, triggered
> >>>>>>>>>>> the switch back climbs being built vs just direct
> >>>>>>>>>>> up!
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Interesting. Maybe 15 years ago on a solo ride, I
> >>>>>>>>>> came across a road
> >>>>>>>>>> that's well within my riding territory, but that
> >>>>>>>>>> I'd somehow never
> >>>>>>>>>> ridden. On turning a bend, I saw a fearsome
> >>>>>>>>>> looking climb - or rather, I
> >>>>>>>>>> saw that the road must go up to the top of a very
> >>>>>>>>>> tall ridge; the road
> >>>>>>>>>> itself wasn't visible through the trees.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> I very specifically thought "I'll be OK because it
> >>>>>>>>>> can't possibly go
> >>>>>>>>>> straight up. This is an old road, and a horse
> >>>>>>>>>> pulling a wagon could
> >>>>>>>>>> never make it straight up. There must be
> >>>>>>>>>> switchbacks."
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> I was wrong. It was straight up. I don't know the
> >>>>>>>>>> grade, but I remember
> >>>>>>>>>> being in my touring bike's granny gear and still
> >>>>>>>>>> needing to stand to
> >>>>>>>>>> complete the climb.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> So I guess my "horse and wagon" thinking was
> >>>>>>>>>> backwards.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> American maybe different, I assume native Americans
> >>>>>>>>> had pack roads in
> >>>>>>>>> places? But yes the old road ie few 1000 years old,
> >>>>>>>>> often hug the ridge
> >>>>>>>>> line and take a direct route, vs inclined routes
> >>>>>>>>> that more modern roads
> >>>>>>>>> use.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Roger Merriman
> >>>>>>>> I grew up in New Hampshire where certainly some
> >>>>>>>> roads dated back to
> >>>>>>>> the 1700's and I don't remember any "switchback"
> >>>>>>>> roads. But equally
> >>>>>>>> true roads didn't go up, or down, extreme
> >>>>>>>> slopes.There is always a way
> >>>>>>>> around although it may be longer (:-)
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> As for Native Americans, I doubt very much that
> >>>>>>>> prior to the invasion
> >>>>>>>> of the Europeans that had anything more then foot
> >>>>>>>> paths as their only
> >>>>>>>> "beast of burden" was a dog.
> >>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> John B.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> There weren't horses, mules, donkeys, oxen, cows in
> >>>>>>> North America before
> >>>>>>> Europeans brought them over in the 1600s when they
> >>>>>>> found America? Had
> >>>>>>> Native Americans invented wheels before Europeans
> >>>>>>> brought them over to North America?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> There were none of those things.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> We don't think of it that way, but it was still the
> >>>>>> Stone Age in
> >>>>>> pre-Columbian North America. Pre-Columbian Indians (or
> >>>>>> whatever's the
> >>>>>> correct term this week) had some limited use of
> >>>>>> copper, but typically
> >>>>>> their tools were stone, not (say) bronze. They
> >>>>>> certainly had no iron or
> >>>>>> steel. Also no wheels, etc. However, there were
> >>>>>> societies and trading
> >>>>>> systems that were advanced in other ways.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Jared Diamond's book "Guns, Germs and Steel" is well
> >>>>>> worth reading.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> Indeed!
> >>>>
> >>>> Is this the book that the PBS series was based upon that
> >>>> claimed the
> >>>> Columbus purposely infected the New World with old world
> >>>> diseases?
> >>>>
> >>> Been a long time since I read the book, but I don’t
> >>> recall purposely, after
> >>> all they didn’t know what caused infection at that point
> >>
> >> They didn't know what caused it but they know about
> >> "contagion" from before the 14th Century. But it would
> >> have been ridiculous for anyone to believe that a disease
> >> that did not show on people could infect others that had
> >> never been exposed to it.
> >>
> >> So the problem wasn't that Columbus or any of his crew did
> >> this or that but that the Woke people claimed it so.
> >
> > Please give a direct quote of a reputable historic source
> > that says what you claimed.
> >
> > Or to be more blunt: Stop arguing against what you wish
> > people said. Pay attention to what they've actually said.
> > Take notes so you can tell the difference, because your
> > "memory" isn't working.
> >
> A University if not The University at Columbus Ohio.
>
> https://u.osu.edu/posterchildchristophercolumbus/villain-columbus/
>
> Under the heading 'Villain Columbus' we read, "Thousands of
> them were killed either by disease, by overworking or by the
> hands of Columbus and his men."

The trouble with Frank is that he isn't interested one iota in the truth. He simply wants to oppose anything I have to say. Remember that in 1984 Orwell wrote that every day at a certain time you were encouraged to hate everyone else for two minutes? Well, Frank has made an art out of it and devotes his entire lifetime to it. This is what the he has become. And why is that? Because he never became anything. Imagine the feelings that shoot through him every time he realizes that someone without HIS education changed the world and he couldn't even change himself. He carries so much hatred about that that I have no doubts that if he is admitted to an emergency hospital and realizes that he is being treated by one of the machines I pioneered that he will have a stroke and die rather than admit that someone with a "mere" high school education did that.

On Monday, March 14, 2022 at 5:04:46 AM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
> AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> > On 3/13/2022 9:10 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >> On 3/13/2022 7:41 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>> On Sunday, March 13, 2022 at 4:27:36 PM UTC-7, Roger
> >>> Merriman wrote:
> >>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>> On Sunday, March 13, 2022 at 11:29:11 AM UTC-7, Roger
> >>>>> Merriman wrote:
> >>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>>>>>> On 3/12/2022 9:33 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On Saturday, March 12, 2022 at 4:55:47 PM UTC-6, John
> >>>>>>>> B. wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On Sat, 12 Mar 2022 19:45:36 -0000 (UTC), Roger
> >>>>>>>>> Merriman
> >>>>>>>>> <ro...@sarlet.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> On 3/12/2022 8:46 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Older roads tend to be steeper more direct, horse
> >>>>>>>>>>>> and cart can be pushed up
> >>>>>>>>>>>> the inclines, the advent of the motor car and its
> >>>>>>>>>>>> lack of power, triggered
> >>>>>>>>>>>> the switch back climbs being built vs just direct
> >>>>>>>>>>>> up!
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Interesting. Maybe 15 years ago on a solo ride, I
> >>>>>>>>>>> came across a road
> >>>>>>>>>>> that's well within my riding territory, but that
> >>>>>>>>>>> I'd somehow never
> >>>>>>>>>>> ridden. On turning a bend, I saw a fearsome
> >>>>>>>>>>> looking climb - or rather, I
> >>>>>>>>>>> saw that the road must go up to the top of a very
> >>>>>>>>>>> tall ridge; the road
> >>>>>>>>>>> itself wasn't visible through the trees.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> I very specifically thought "I'll be OK because it
> >>>>>>>>>>> can't possibly go
> >>>>>>>>>>> straight up. This is an old road, and a horse
> >>>>>>>>>>> pulling a wagon could
> >>>>>>>>>>> never make it straight up. There must be
> >>>>>>>>>>> switchbacks."
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> I was wrong. It was straight up. I don't know the
> >>>>>>>>>>> grade, but I remember
> >>>>>>>>>>> being in my touring bike's granny gear and still
> >>>>>>>>>>> needing to stand to
> >>>>>>>>>>> complete the climb.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> So I guess my "horse and wagon" thinking was
> >>>>>>>>>>> backwards.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> American maybe different, I assume native Americans
> >>>>>>>>>> had pack roads in
> >>>>>>>>>> places? But yes the old road ie few 1000 years old,
> >>>>>>>>>> often hug the ridge
> >>>>>>>>>> line and take a direct route, vs inclined routes
> >>>>>>>>>> that more modern roads
> >>>>>>>>>> use.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Roger Merriman
> >>>>>>>>> I grew up in New Hampshire where certainly some
> >>>>>>>>> roads dated back to
> >>>>>>>>> the 1700's and I don't remember any "switchback"
> >>>>>>>>> roads. But equally
> >>>>>>>>> true roads didn't go up, or down, extreme
> >>>>>>>>> slopes.There is always a way
> >>>>>>>>> around although it may be longer (:-)
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> As for Native Americans, I doubt very much that
> >>>>>>>>> prior to the invasion
> >>>>>>>>> of the Europeans that had anything more then foot
> >>>>>>>>> paths as their only
> >>>>>>>>> "beast of burden" was a dog.
> >>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> John B.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> There weren't horses, mules, donkeys, oxen, cows in
> >>>>>>>> North America before
> >>>>>>>> Europeans brought them over in the 1600s when they
> >>>>>>>> found America? Had
> >>>>>>>> Native Americans invented wheels before Europeans
> >>>>>>>> brought them over to North America?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> There were none of those things.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> We don't think of it that way, but it was still the
> >>>>>>> Stone Age in
> >>>>>>> pre-Columbian North America. Pre-Columbian Indians (or
> >>>>>>> whatever's the
> >>>>>>> correct term this week) had some limited use of
> >>>>>>> copper, but typically
> >>>>>>> their tools were stone, not (say) bronze. They
> >>>>>>> certainly had no iron or
> >>>>>>> steel. Also no wheels, etc. However, there were
> >>>>>>> societies and trading
> >>>>>>> systems that were advanced in other ways.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Jared Diamond's book "Guns, Germs and Steel" is well
> >>>>>>> worth reading.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> Indeed!
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Is this the book that the PBS series was based upon that
> >>>>> claimed the
> >>>>> Columbus purposely infected the New World with old world
> >>>>> diseases?
> >>>>>
> >>>> Been a long time since I read the book, but I don’t
> >>>> recall purposely, after
> >>>> all they didn’t know what caused infection at that point
> >>>
> >>> They didn't know what caused it but they know about
> >>> "contagion" from before the 14th Century. But it would
> >>> have been ridiculous for anyone to believe that a disease
> >>> that did not show on people could infect others that had
> >>> never been exposed to it.
> >>>
> >>> So the problem wasn't that Columbus or any of his crew did
> >>> this or that but that the Woke people claimed it so.
> >>
> >> Please give a direct quote of a reputable historic source
> >> that says what you claimed.
> >>
> >> Or to be more blunt: Stop arguing against what you wish
> >> people said. Pay attention to what they've actually said.
> >> Take notes so you can tell the difference, because your
> >> "memory" isn't working.
> >>
> >
> > A University if not The University at Columbus Ohio.
> >
> > https://u.osu.edu/posterchildchristophercolumbus/villain-columbus/
> >
> > Under the heading 'Villain Columbus' we read, "Thousands of
> > them were killed either by disease, by overworking or by the
> > hands of Columbus and his men."
> >
> >
> Indeed, but realistically the disease isn’t deliberate, and frankly sins of
> your father only go so far.
>
> Roger Merriman

On 3/13/2022 10:37 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 3/13/2022 9:10 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 3/13/2022 7:41 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> On Sunday, March 13, 2022 at 4:27:36 PM UTC-7, Roger
>>> Merriman wrote:
>>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Sunday, March 13, 2022 at 11:29:11 AM UTC-7, Roger
>>>>> Merriman wrote:
>>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/12/2022 9:33 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Saturday, March 12, 2022 at 4:55:47 PM UTC-6, John
>>>>>>>> B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 12 Mar 2022 19:45:36 -0000 (UTC), Roger
>>>>>>>>> Merriman
>>>>>>>>> <ro...@sarlet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/12/2022 8:46 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Older roads tend to be steeper more direct, horse
>>>>>>>>>>>> and cart can be pushed up
>>>>>>>>>>>> the inclines, the advent of the motor car and its
>>>>>>>>>>>> lack of power, triggered
>>>>>>>>>>>> the switch back climbs being built vs just direct
>>>>>>>>>>>> up!
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Interesting. Maybe 15 years ago on a solo ride, I
>>>>>>>>>>> came across a road
>>>>>>>>>>> that's well within my riding territory, but that
>>>>>>>>>>> I'd somehow never
>>>>>>>>>>> ridden. On turning a bend, I saw a fearsome
>>>>>>>>>>> looking climb - or rather, I
>>>>>>>>>>> saw that the road must go up to the top of a very
>>>>>>>>>>> tall ridge; the road
>>>>>>>>>>> itself wasn't visible through the trees.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I very specifically thought "I'll be OK because it
>>>>>>>>>>> can't possibly go
>>>>>>>>>>> straight up. This is an old road, and a horse
>>>>>>>>>>> pulling a wagon could
>>>>>>>>>>> never make it straight up. There must be
>>>>>>>>>>> switchbacks."
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I was wrong. It was straight up. I don't know the
>>>>>>>>>>> grade, but I remember
>>>>>>>>>>> being in my touring bike's granny gear and still
>>>>>>>>>>> needing to stand to
>>>>>>>>>>> complete the climb.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> So I guess my "horse and wagon" thinking was
>>>>>>>>>>> backwards.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> American maybe different, I assume native Americans
>>>>>>>>>> had pack roads in
>>>>>>>>>> places? But yes the old road ie few 1000 years old,
>>>>>>>>>> often hug the ridge
>>>>>>>>>> line and take a direct route, vs inclined routes
>>>>>>>>>> that more modern roads
>>>>>>>>>> use.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>>>>>> I grew up in New Hampshire where certainly some
>>>>>>>>> roads dated back to
>>>>>>>>> the 1700's and I don't remember any "switchback"
>>>>>>>>> roads. But equally
>>>>>>>>> true roads didn't go up, or down, extreme
>>>>>>>>> slopes.There is always a way
>>>>>>>>> around although it may be longer (:-)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As for Native Americans, I doubt very much that
>>>>>>>>> prior to the invasion
>>>>>>>>> of the Europeans that had anything more then foot
>>>>>>>>> paths as their only
>>>>>>>>> "beast of burden" was a dog.
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> John B.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There weren't horses, mules, donkeys, oxen, cows in
>>>>>>>> North America before
>>>>>>>> Europeans brought them over in the 1600s when they
>>>>>>>> found America? Had
>>>>>>>> Native Americans invented wheels before Europeans
>>>>>>>> brought them over to North America?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There were none of those things.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We don't think of it that way, but it was still the
>>>>>>> Stone Age in
>>>>>>> pre-Columbian North America. Pre-Columbian Indians (or
>>>>>>> whatever's the
>>>>>>> correct term this week) had some limited use of
>>>>>>> copper, but typically
>>>>>>> their tools were stone, not (say) bronze. They
>>>>>>> certainly had no iron or
>>>>>>> steel. Also no wheels, etc. However, there were
>>>>>>> societies and trading
>>>>>>> systems that were advanced in other ways.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jared Diamond's book "Guns, Germs and Steel" is well
>>>>>>> worth reading.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Indeed!
>>>>>
>>>>> Is this the book that the PBS series was based upon that
>>>>> claimed the
>>>>> Columbus purposely infected the New World with old world
>>>>> diseases?
>>>>>
>>>> Been a long time since I read the book, but I don’t
>>>> recall purposely, after
>>>> all they didn’t know what caused infection at that point
>>>
>>> They didn't know what caused it but they know about
>>> "contagion" from before the 14th Century. But it would
>>> have been ridiculous for anyone to believe that a disease
>>> that did not show on people could infect others that had
>>> never been exposed to it.
>>>
>>> So the problem wasn't that Columbus or any of his crew did
>>> this or that but that the Woke people claimed it so.
>>
>> Please give a direct quote of a reputable historic source
>> that says what you claimed.
>>
>> Or to be more blunt: Stop arguing against what you wish
>> people said. Pay attention to what they've actually said.
>> Take notes so you can tell the difference, because your
>> "memory" isn't working.
>>
>
> A University if not The University at Columbus Ohio.
>
> https://u.osu.edu/posterchildchristophercolumbus/villain-columbus/
>
> Under the heading 'Villain Columbus' we read, "Thousands of them were
> killed either by disease, by overworking or by the hands of Columbus and
> his men."

That is accurate. What Tom claimed is NOT accurate - that Columbus
deliberately infected them, or that any knowledgeable person claimed
that Columbus deliberately infected them.

If Columbus had not "discovered" America, some other European would have
done so. Even if that other European had magically perfect attitudes and
practices according to the most liberal 21st century standards, European
diseases would still have depopulated the continent.

Diamond's book noted that the diseases traveled far faster than the
Europeans, so that the first Europeans traveling many hundreds of miles
inland found villages empty of all but dead bodies.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 3/14/2022 10:55 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 3/13/2022 10:37 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 3/13/2022 9:10 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 3/13/2022 7:41 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>> On Sunday, March 13, 2022 at 4:27:36 PM UTC-7, Roger
>>>> Merriman wrote:
>>>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Sunday, March 13, 2022 at 11:29:11 AM UTC-7, Roger
>>>>>> Merriman wrote:
>>>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 3/12/2022 9:33 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, March 12, 2022 at 4:55:47 PM UTC-6, John
>>>>>>>>> B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 12 Mar 2022 19:45:36 -0000 (UTC), Roger
>>>>>>>>>> Merriman
>>>>>>>>>> <ro...@sarlet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/12/2022 8:46 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Older roads tend to be steeper more direct, horse
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and cart can be pushed up
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the inclines, the advent of the motor car and its
>>>>>>>>>>>>> lack of power, triggered
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the switch back climbs being built vs just direct
>>>>>>>>>>>>> up!
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Interesting. Maybe 15 years ago on a solo ride, I
>>>>>>>>>>>> came across a road
>>>>>>>>>>>> that's well within my riding territory, but that
>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd somehow never
>>>>>>>>>>>> ridden. On turning a bend, I saw a fearsome
>>>>>>>>>>>> looking climb - or rather, I
>>>>>>>>>>>> saw that the road must go up to the top of a very
>>>>>>>>>>>> tall ridge; the road
>>>>>>>>>>>> itself wasn't visible through the trees.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I very specifically thought "I'll be OK because it
>>>>>>>>>>>> can't possibly go
>>>>>>>>>>>> straight up. This is an old road, and a horse
>>>>>>>>>>>> pulling a wagon could
>>>>>>>>>>>> never make it straight up. There must be
>>>>>>>>>>>> switchbacks."
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I was wrong. It was straight up. I don't know the
>>>>>>>>>>>> grade, but I remember
>>>>>>>>>>>> being in my touring bike's granny gear and still
>>>>>>>>>>>> needing to stand to
>>>>>>>>>>>> complete the climb.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> So I guess my "horse and wagon" thinking was
>>>>>>>>>>>> backwards.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> American maybe different, I assume native Americans
>>>>>>>>>>> had pack roads in
>>>>>>>>>>> places? But yes the old road ie few 1000 years old,
>>>>>>>>>>> often hug the ridge
>>>>>>>>>>> line and take a direct route, vs inclined routes
>>>>>>>>>>> that more modern roads
>>>>>>>>>>> use.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>>>>>>> I grew up in New Hampshire where certainly some
>>>>>>>>>> roads dated back to
>>>>>>>>>> the 1700's and I don't remember any "switchback"
>>>>>>>>>> roads. But equally
>>>>>>>>>> true roads didn't go up, or down, extreme
>>>>>>>>>> slopes.There is always a way
>>>>>>>>>> around although it may be longer (:-)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> As for Native Americans, I doubt very much that
>>>>>>>>>> prior to the invasion
>>>>>>>>>> of the Europeans that had anything more then foot
>>>>>>>>>> paths as their only
>>>>>>>>>> "beast of burden" was a dog.
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> John B.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There weren't horses, mules, donkeys, oxen, cows in
>>>>>>>>> North America before
>>>>>>>>> Europeans brought them over in the 1600s when they
>>>>>>>>> found America? Had
>>>>>>>>> Native Americans invented wheels before Europeans
>>>>>>>>> brought them over to North America?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There were none of those things.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We don't think of it that way, but it was still the
>>>>>>>> Stone Age in
>>>>>>>> pre-Columbian North America. Pre-Columbian Indians (or
>>>>>>>> whatever's the
>>>>>>>> correct term this week) had some limited use of
>>>>>>>> copper, but typically
>>>>>>>> their tools were stone, not (say) bronze. They
>>>>>>>> certainly had no iron or
>>>>>>>> steel. Also no wheels, etc. However, there were
>>>>>>>> societies and trading
>>>>>>>> systems that were advanced in other ways.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Jared Diamond's book "Guns, Germs and Steel" is well
>>>>>>>> worth reading.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Indeed!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is this the book that the PBS series was based upon that
>>>>>> claimed the
>>>>>> Columbus purposely infected the New World with old world
>>>>>> diseases?
>>>>>>
>>>>> Been a long time since I read the book, but I don’t
>>>>> recall purposely, after
>>>>> all they didn’t know what caused infection at
>>>>> that point
>>>>
>>>> They didn't know what caused it but they know about
>>>> "contagion" from before the 14th Century. But it would
>>>> have been ridiculous for anyone to believe that a disease
>>>> that did not show on people could infect others that had
>>>> never been exposed to it.
>>>>
>>>> So the problem wasn't that Columbus or any of his crew did
>>>> this or that but that the Woke people claimed it so.
>>>
>>> Please give a direct quote of a reputable historic source
>>> that says what you claimed.
>>>
>>> Or to be more blunt: Stop arguing against what you wish
>>> people said. Pay attention to what they've actually said.
>>> Take notes so you can tell the difference, because your
>>> "memory" isn't working.
>>>
>>
>> A University if not The University at Columbus Ohio.
>>
>> https://u.osu.edu/posterchildchristophercolumbus/villain-columbus/
>>
>>
>> Under the heading 'Villain Columbus' we read, "Thousands
>> of them were killed either by disease, by overworking or
>> by the hands of Columbus and his men."
>
> That is accurate. What Tom claimed is NOT accurate - that
> Columbus deliberately infected them, or that any
> knowledgeable person claimed that Columbus deliberately
> infected them.
>
> If Columbus had not "discovered" America, some other
> European would have done so. Even if that other European had
> magically perfect attitudes and practices according to the
> most liberal 21st century standards, European diseases would
> still have depopulated the continent.
>
> Diamond's book noted that the diseases traveled far faster
> than the Europeans, so that the first Europeans traveling
> many hundreds of miles inland found villages empty of all
> but dead bodies.
>
>

On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 11:25:22 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
> The Garmin Edge 830 has a few things you must remember about it. Firstly the common charging cable that comes with it is incompatible with others that appear the same. Although they allow charging they do not have the data lines necessary to connect the 830 to a home computer. This isn't a problem IF you have the 830 set up to WiFi data through your home network but the standard Garmin Express seems to block access to your WiFi unless you know your password. These days most people don't commonly memorize their passwords and use wildly different passwords since Windows normally memorizes them for you and you don't want one password for something jeopardizing that of some more important access such as your bank account or whatever.
>
> Playing around with Garmin Express I finally got it to register my new 830 after a very painful long production that was based mostly on the fact that 1. You need the updated software package on your computer and you phone needs to have Garmin Connect app on it and you have to follow the procedures. This brought the 830 into the fold.
>
> But it still wouldn't change display windows as it showed in the video I watched. I suppose that they assumed that you were already in setup and the setup window of course looks identical to the normal data window. Once that was straighten out I got the data windows setup the way I wanted them. I will still have to test it all after a ride but it is supposed to download from the 830 directly into the computer via the BlueTooth link and you would use the cable only for charging.
>
> This all would have been a lot less painful if they included a manual or at least a paper with the website on it where the on-line manual is located.. Being a bit old fashion I don't think it is fashionable to look for everything via Google and then sort through all of the entries to discover the one which will fill your needs and which always turns out to be the wrong one. If you hit the one of a million entries that says "Garmin Connect" it starts up a Garmin connect elsewhere that runs on your home computer. Maybe some people find that helpful because they don't have enough storage space. But I don't much care for everyone and his brother knowing what I am doing at any time.
>
> In any case, the 830 is now registered and setup.
>
> Here is a question in case any of you have an answer: The bottom of the 830 inside the twist connector has 4 electrical contacts. Does anyone know what this is for? Is there an accessory charger so that you simply put your 830 into a holder to charge rather than fighting that cable?

For my Sunday ride I did a 38 mile ride and the Garmin Edge 830 stopped recording speed and distance after 5 miles. Again I contacted Garmin and again they were polite and helpful. It appears that they have a new Beta firmware release that is supposed to fix a common problem where mileage stops recording. This was my problem so I went through a rather complicated process (it would be easy the second time around) to download and install the Beta firmware. I might be riding tomorrow if it doesn't rain as predicted. If I do ride I will be able to see if the latest firmware repairs the problem.

Since I have begun relying completely on the Garmin for speed, distance and climbing, it is a pain in the butt when it stops working. The other day on a 25 mile ride it logged the correct mileage and speed but the Battery Saver mode was engaged and the you had to touch the screen and only a few seconds went by before the display would blank. So while I've been having all of these problems with the Edge 830 it is plainly not a hardware problem but rather a firmware programming problem. The question is why Garmin would release this with problems? It appears that they are so busy developing and releasing new products for cars, airplanes, boats, running, wrist etc. that they can't be bother with their core product line.

This is the usual company growth problem and what has put so many companies out of business. The sort of thing that Franks thinks as abnormal. As if he could even guess at it.

On Monday, March 14, 2022 at 8:04:46 a.m. UTC-4, Roger Merriman wrote:
> AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> > On 3/13/2022 9:10 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >> On 3/13/2022 7:41 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>> On Sunday, March 13, 2022 at 4:27:36 PM UTC-7, Roger
> >>> Merriman wrote:
> >>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>> On Sunday, March 13, 2022 at 11:29:11 AM UTC-7, Roger
> >>>>> Merriman wrote:
> >>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>>>>>> On 3/12/2022 9:33 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On Saturday, March 12, 2022 at 4:55:47 PM UTC-6, John
> >>>>>>>> B. wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On Sat, 12 Mar 2022 19:45:36 -0000 (UTC), Roger
> >>>>>>>>> Merriman
> >>>>>>>>> <ro...@sarlet.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> On 3/12/2022 8:46 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Older roads tend to be steeper more direct, horse
> >>>>>>>>>>>> and cart can be pushed up
> >>>>>>>>>>>> the inclines, the advent of the motor car and its
> >>>>>>>>>>>> lack of power, triggered
> >>>>>>>>>>>> the switch back climbs being built vs just direct
> >>>>>>>>>>>> up!
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Interesting. Maybe 15 years ago on a solo ride, I
> >>>>>>>>>>> came across a road
> >>>>>>>>>>> that's well within my riding territory, but that
> >>>>>>>>>>> I'd somehow never
> >>>>>>>>>>> ridden. On turning a bend, I saw a fearsome
> >>>>>>>>>>> looking climb - or rather, I
> >>>>>>>>>>> saw that the road must go up to the top of a very
> >>>>>>>>>>> tall ridge; the road
> >>>>>>>>>>> itself wasn't visible through the trees.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> I very specifically thought "I'll be OK because it
> >>>>>>>>>>> can't possibly go
> >>>>>>>>>>> straight up. This is an old road, and a horse
> >>>>>>>>>>> pulling a wagon could
> >>>>>>>>>>> never make it straight up. There must be
> >>>>>>>>>>> switchbacks."
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> I was wrong. It was straight up. I don't know the
> >>>>>>>>>>> grade, but I remember
> >>>>>>>>>>> being in my touring bike's granny gear and still
> >>>>>>>>>>> needing to stand to
> >>>>>>>>>>> complete the climb.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> So I guess my "horse and wagon" thinking was
> >>>>>>>>>>> backwards.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> American maybe different, I assume native Americans
> >>>>>>>>>> had pack roads in
> >>>>>>>>>> places? But yes the old road ie few 1000 years old,
> >>>>>>>>>> often hug the ridge
> >>>>>>>>>> line and take a direct route, vs inclined routes
> >>>>>>>>>> that more modern roads
> >>>>>>>>>> use.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Roger Merriman
> >>>>>>>>> I grew up in New Hampshire where certainly some
> >>>>>>>>> roads dated back to
> >>>>>>>>> the 1700's and I don't remember any "switchback"
> >>>>>>>>> roads. But equally
> >>>>>>>>> true roads didn't go up, or down, extreme
> >>>>>>>>> slopes.There is always a way
> >>>>>>>>> around although it may be longer (:-)
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> As for Native Americans, I doubt very much that
> >>>>>>>>> prior to the invasion
> >>>>>>>>> of the Europeans that had anything more then foot
> >>>>>>>>> paths as their only
> >>>>>>>>> "beast of burden" was a dog.
> >>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> John B.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> There weren't horses, mules, donkeys, oxen, cows in
> >>>>>>>> North America before
> >>>>>>>> Europeans brought them over in the 1600s when they
> >>>>>>>> found America? Had
> >>>>>>>> Native Americans invented wheels before Europeans
> >>>>>>>> brought them over to North America?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> There were none of those things.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> We don't think of it that way, but it was still the
> >>>>>>> Stone Age in
> >>>>>>> pre-Columbian North America. Pre-Columbian Indians (or
> >>>>>>> whatever's the
> >>>>>>> correct term this week) had some limited use of
> >>>>>>> copper, but typically
> >>>>>>> their tools were stone, not (say) bronze. They
> >>>>>>> certainly had no iron or
> >>>>>>> steel. Also no wheels, etc. However, there were
> >>>>>>> societies and trading
> >>>>>>> systems that were advanced in other ways.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Jared Diamond's book "Guns, Germs and Steel" is well
> >>>>>>> worth reading.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> Indeed!
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Is this the book that the PBS series was based upon that
> >>>>> claimed the
> >>>>> Columbus purposely infected the New World with old world
> >>>>> diseases?
> >>>>>
> >>>> Been a long time since I read the book, but I don’t
> >>>> recall purposely, after
> >>>> all they didn’t know what caused infection at that point
> >>>
> >>> They didn't know what caused it but they know about
> >>> "contagion" from before the 14th Century. But it would
> >>> have been ridiculous for anyone to believe that a disease
> >>> that did not show on people could infect others that had
> >>> never been exposed to it.
> >>>
> >>> So the problem wasn't that Columbus or any of his crew did
> >>> this or that but that the Woke people claimed it so.
> >>
> >> Please give a direct quote of a reputable historic source
> >> that says what you claimed.
> >>
> >> Or to be more blunt: Stop arguing against what you wish
> >> people said. Pay attention to what they've actually said.
> >> Take notes so you can tell the difference, because your
> >> "memory" isn't working.
> >>
> >
> > A University if not The University at Columbus Ohio.
> >
> > https://u.osu.edu/posterchildchristophercolumbus/villain-columbus/
> >
> > Under the heading 'Villain Columbus' we read, "Thousands of
> > them were killed either by disease, by overworking or by the
> > hands of Columbus and his men."
> >
> >
> Indeed, but realistically the disease isn’t deliberate, and frankly sins of
> your father only go so far.
>
> Roger Merriman

On Monday, March 14, 2022 at 2:23:01 PM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> On Monday, March 14, 2022 at 8:04:46 a.m. UTC-4, Roger Merriman wrote:
> > AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> > > On 3/13/2022 9:10 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > >> On 3/13/2022 7:41 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > >>> On Sunday, March 13, 2022 at 4:27:36 PM UTC-7, Roger
> > >>> Merriman wrote:
> > >>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>>> On Sunday, March 13, 2022 at 11:29:11 AM UTC-7, Roger
> > >>>>> Merriman wrote:
> > >>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > >>>>>>> On 3/12/2022 9:33 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > >>>>>>>> On Saturday, March 12, 2022 at 4:55:47 PM UTC-6, John
> > >>>>>>>> B. wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>> On Sat, 12 Mar 2022 19:45:36 -0000 (UTC), Roger
> > >>>>>>>>> Merriman
> > >>>>>>>>> <ro...@sarlet.com> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>> On 3/12/2022 8:46 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Older roads tend to be steeper more direct, horse
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> and cart can be pushed up
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> the inclines, the advent of the motor car and its
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> lack of power, triggered
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> the switch back climbs being built vs just direct
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> up!
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Interesting. Maybe 15 years ago on a solo ride, I
> > >>>>>>>>>>> came across a road
> > >>>>>>>>>>> that's well within my riding territory, but that
> > >>>>>>>>>>> I'd somehow never
> > >>>>>>>>>>> ridden. On turning a bend, I saw a fearsome
> > >>>>>>>>>>> looking climb - or rather, I
> > >>>>>>>>>>> saw that the road must go up to the top of a very
> > >>>>>>>>>>> tall ridge; the road
> > >>>>>>>>>>> itself wasn't visible through the trees.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> I very specifically thought "I'll be OK because it
> > >>>>>>>>>>> can't possibly go
> > >>>>>>>>>>> straight up. This is an old road, and a horse
> > >>>>>>>>>>> pulling a wagon could
> > >>>>>>>>>>> never make it straight up. There must be
> > >>>>>>>>>>> switchbacks."
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> I was wrong. It was straight up. I don't know the
> > >>>>>>>>>>> grade, but I remember
> > >>>>>>>>>>> being in my touring bike's granny gear and still
> > >>>>>>>>>>> needing to stand to
> > >>>>>>>>>>> complete the climb.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> So I guess my "horse and wagon" thinking was
> > >>>>>>>>>>> backwards.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> American maybe different, I assume native Americans
> > >>>>>>>>>> had pack roads in
> > >>>>>>>>>> places? But yes the old road ie few 1000 years old,
> > >>>>>>>>>> often hug the ridge
> > >>>>>>>>>> line and take a direct route, vs inclined routes
> > >>>>>>>>>> that more modern roads
> > >>>>>>>>>> use.
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> Roger Merriman
> > >>>>>>>>> I grew up in New Hampshire where certainly some
> > >>>>>>>>> roads dated back to
> > >>>>>>>>> the 1700's and I don't remember any "switchback"
> > >>>>>>>>> roads. But equally
> > >>>>>>>>> true roads didn't go up, or down, extreme
> > >>>>>>>>> slopes.There is always a way
> > >>>>>>>>> around although it may be longer (:-)
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> As for Native Americans, I doubt very much that
> > >>>>>>>>> prior to the invasion
> > >>>>>>>>> of the Europeans that had anything more then foot
> > >>>>>>>>> paths as their only
> > >>>>>>>>> "beast of burden" was a dog.
> > >>>>>>>>> --
> > >>>>>>>>> Cheers,
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> John B.
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> There weren't horses, mules, donkeys, oxen, cows in
> > >>>>>>>> North America before
> > >>>>>>>> Europeans brought them over in the 1600s when they
> > >>>>>>>> found America? Had
> > >>>>>>>> Native Americans invented wheels before Europeans
> > >>>>>>>> brought them over to North America?
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> There were none of those things.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> We don't think of it that way, but it was still the
> > >>>>>>> Stone Age in
> > >>>>>>> pre-Columbian North America. Pre-Columbian Indians (or
> > >>>>>>> whatever's the
> > >>>>>>> correct term this week) had some limited use of
> > >>>>>>> copper, but typically
> > >>>>>>> their tools were stone, not (say) bronze. They
> > >>>>>>> certainly had no iron or
> > >>>>>>> steel. Also no wheels, etc. However, there were
> > >>>>>>> societies and trading
> > >>>>>>> systems that were advanced in other ways.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Jared Diamond's book "Guns, Germs and Steel" is well
> > >>>>>>> worth reading.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Indeed!
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Is this the book that the PBS series was based upon that
> > >>>>> claimed the
> > >>>>> Columbus purposely infected the New World with old world
> > >>>>> diseases?
> > >>>>>
> > >>>> Been a long time since I read the book, but I don’t
> > >>>> recall purposely, after
> > >>>> all they didn’t know what caused infection at that point
> > >>>
> > >>> They didn't know what caused it but they know about
> > >>> "contagion" from before the 14th Century. But it would
> > >>> have been ridiculous for anyone to believe that a disease
> > >>> that did not show on people could infect others that had
> > >>> never been exposed to it.
> > >>>
> > >>> So the problem wasn't that Columbus or any of his crew did
> > >>> this or that but that the Woke people claimed it so.
> > >>
> > >> Please give a direct quote of a reputable historic source
> > >> that says what you claimed.
> > >>
> > >> Or to be more blunt: Stop arguing against what you wish
> > >> people said. Pay attention to what they've actually said.
> > >> Take notes so you can tell the difference, because your
> > >> "memory" isn't working.
> > >>
> > >
> > > A University if not The University at Columbus Ohio.
> > >
> > > https://u.osu.edu/posterchildchristophercolumbus/villain-columbus/
> > >
> > > Under the heading 'Villain Columbus' we read, "Thousands of
> > > them were killed either by disease, by overworking or by the
> > > hands of Columbus and his men."
> > >
> > >
> > Indeed, but realistically the disease isn’t deliberate, and frankly sins of
> > your father only go so far.
> >
> > Roger Merriman
> How about when the British gave blankets from smallpox wards to the natives?

On 3/14/2022 4:32 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 11:25:22 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> The Garmin Edge 830 has a few things you must remember about it. Firstly the common charging cable that comes with it is incompatible with others that appear the same. Although they allow charging they do not have the data lines necessary to connect the 830 to a home computer. This isn't a problem IF you have the 830 set up to WiFi data through your home network but the standard Garmin Express seems to block access to your WiFi unless you know your password. These days most people don't commonly memorize their passwords and use wildly different passwords since Windows normally memorizes them for you and you don't want one password for something jeopardizing that of some more important access such as your bank account or whatever.
>>
>> Playing around with Garmin Express I finally got it to register my new 830 after a very painful long production that was based mostly on the fact that 1. You need the updated software package on your computer and you phone needs to have Garmin Connect app on it and you have to follow the procedures. This brought the 830 into the fold.
>>
>> But it still wouldn't change display windows as it showed in the video I watched. I suppose that they assumed that you were already in setup and the setup window of course looks identical to the normal data window. Once that was straighten out I got the data windows setup the way I wanted them. I will still have to test it all after a ride but it is supposed to download from the 830 directly into the computer via the BlueTooth link and you would use the cable only for charging.
>>
>> This all would have been a lot less painful if they included a manual or at least a paper with the website on it where the on-line manual is located. Being a bit old fashion I don't think it is fashionable to look for everything via Google and then sort through all of the entries to discover the one which will fill your needs and which always turns out to be the wrong one. If you hit the one of a million entries that says "Garmin Connect" it starts up a Garmin connect elsewhere that runs on your home computer. Maybe some people find that helpful because they don't have enough storage space. But I don't much care for everyone and his brother knowing what I am doing at any time.
>>
>> In any case, the 830 is now registered and setup.
>>
>> Here is a question in case any of you have an answer: The bottom of the 830 inside the twist connector has 4 electrical contacts. Does anyone know what this is for? Is there an accessory charger so that you simply put your 830 into a holder to charge rather than fighting that cable?
>
> For my Sunday ride I did a 38 mile ride and the Garmin Edge 830 stopped recording speed and distance after 5 miles. ...
>
> This is the usual company growth problem and what has put so many companies out of business. The sort of thing that Franks thinks as abnormal. As if he could even guess at it.

Your fantasy life is rich indeed. I haven't commented on Garmin's or any
other company's growth problems at all.

Again, if you wish to debate me, comment on what I've actually said, not
on what you wish I'd said.

As for your Garmin problems: I put them in the same category as your Di2
problems, your bottom bracket problems, your slipping handlebar
problems, your component incompatibility problems, your Usenet quoting
problems and all the rest of the misery you relate. Those and so many
others problems have one thing in common: They seem to occur only to you.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 3/14/2022 5:22 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> On Monday, March 14, 2022 at 8:04:46 a.m. UTC-4, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>> On 3/13/2022 9:10 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 3/13/2022 7:41 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>> On Sunday, March 13, 2022 at 4:27:36 PM UTC-7, Roger
>>>>> Merriman wrote:
>>>>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sunday, March 13, 2022 at 11:29:11 AM UTC-7, Roger
>>>>>>> Merriman wrote:
>>>>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 3/12/2022 9:33 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, March 12, 2022 at 4:55:47 PM UTC-6, John
>>>>>>>>>> B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 12 Mar 2022 19:45:36 -0000 (UTC), Roger
>>>>>>>>>>> Merriman
>>>>>>>>>>> <ro...@sarlet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/12/2022 8:46 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Older roads tend to be steeper more direct, horse
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and cart can be pushed up
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the inclines, the advent of the motor car and its
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lack of power, triggered
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the switch back climbs being built vs just direct
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> up!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Interesting. Maybe 15 years ago on a solo ride, I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> came across a road
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's well within my riding territory, but that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd somehow never
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ridden. On turning a bend, I saw a fearsome
>>>>>>>>>>>>> looking climb - or rather, I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> saw that the road must go up to the top of a very
>>>>>>>>>>>>> tall ridge; the road
>>>>>>>>>>>>> itself wasn't visible through the trees.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I very specifically thought "I'll be OK because it
>>>>>>>>>>>>> can't possibly go
>>>>>>>>>>>>> straight up. This is an old road, and a horse
>>>>>>>>>>>>> pulling a wagon could
>>>>>>>>>>>>> never make it straight up. There must be
>>>>>>>>>>>>> switchbacks."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was wrong. It was straight up. I don't know the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> grade, but I remember
>>>>>>>>>>>>> being in my touring bike's granny gear and still
>>>>>>>>>>>>> needing to stand to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> complete the climb.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> So I guess my "horse and wagon" thinking was
>>>>>>>>>>>>> backwards.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> American maybe different, I assume native Americans
>>>>>>>>>>>> had pack roads in
>>>>>>>>>>>> places? But yes the old road ie few 1000 years old,
>>>>>>>>>>>> often hug the ridge
>>>>>>>>>>>> line and take a direct route, vs inclined routes
>>>>>>>>>>>> that more modern roads
>>>>>>>>>>>> use.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>>>>>>>> I grew up in New Hampshire where certainly some
>>>>>>>>>>> roads dated back to
>>>>>>>>>>> the 1700's and I don't remember any "switchback"
>>>>>>>>>>> roads. But equally
>>>>>>>>>>> true roads didn't go up, or down, extreme
>>>>>>>>>>> slopes.There is always a way
>>>>>>>>>>> around although it may be longer (:-)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> As for Native Americans, I doubt very much that
>>>>>>>>>>> prior to the invasion
>>>>>>>>>>> of the Europeans that had anything more then foot
>>>>>>>>>>> paths as their only
>>>>>>>>>>> "beast of burden" was a dog.
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> John B.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There weren't horses, mules, donkeys, oxen, cows in
>>>>>>>>>> North America before
>>>>>>>>>> Europeans brought them over in the 1600s when they
>>>>>>>>>> found America? Had
>>>>>>>>>> Native Americans invented wheels before Europeans
>>>>>>>>>> brought them over to North America?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There were none of those things.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> We don't think of it that way, but it was still the
>>>>>>>>> Stone Age in
>>>>>>>>> pre-Columbian North America. Pre-Columbian Indians (or
>>>>>>>>> whatever's the
>>>>>>>>> correct term this week) had some limited use of
>>>>>>>>> copper, but typically
>>>>>>>>> their tools were stone, not (say) bronze. They
>>>>>>>>> certainly had no iron or
>>>>>>>>> steel. Also no wheels, etc. However, there were
>>>>>>>>> societies and trading
>>>>>>>>> systems that were advanced in other ways.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Jared Diamond's book "Guns, Germs and Steel" is well
>>>>>>>>> worth reading.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Indeed!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is this the book that the PBS series was based upon that
>>>>>>> claimed the
>>>>>>> Columbus purposely infected the New World with old world
>>>>>>> diseases?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Been a long time since I read the book, but I don’t
>>>>>> recall purposely, after
>>>>>> all they didn’t know what caused infection at that point
>>>>>
>>>>> They didn't know what caused it but they know about
>>>>> "contagion" from before the 14th Century. But it would
>>>>> have been ridiculous for anyone to believe that a disease
>>>>> that did not show on people could infect others that had
>>>>> never been exposed to it.
>>>>>
>>>>> So the problem wasn't that Columbus or any of his crew did
>>>>> this or that but that the Woke people claimed it so.
>>>>
>>>> Please give a direct quote of a reputable historic source
>>>> that says what you claimed.
>>>>
>>>> Or to be more blunt: Stop arguing against what you wish
>>>> people said. Pay attention to what they've actually said.
>>>> Take notes so you can tell the difference, because your
>>>> "memory" isn't working.
>>>>
>>>
>>> A University if not The University at Columbus Ohio.
>>>
>>> https://u.osu.edu/posterchildchristophercolumbus/villain-columbus/
>>>
>>> Under the heading 'Villain Columbus' we read, "Thousands of
>>> them were killed either by disease, by overworking or by the
>>> hands of Columbus and his men."
>>>
>>>
>> Indeed, but realistically the disease isn’t deliberate, and frankly sins of
>> your father only go so far.
>>
>> Roger Merriman
>
> How about when the British gave blankets from smallpox wards to the natives?

On Mon, 14 Mar 2022 14:22:59 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
<i_am_cycle_pathic@yahoo.ca> wrote:

>On Monday, March 14, 2022 at 8:04:46 a.m. UTC-4, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> > On 3/13/2022 9:10 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> >> On 3/13/2022 7:41 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> >>> On Sunday, March 13, 2022 at 4:27:36 PM UTC-7, Roger
>> >>> Merriman wrote:
>> >>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>>> On Sunday, March 13, 2022 at 11:29:11 AM UTC-7, Roger
>> >>>>> Merriman wrote:
>> >>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> >>>>>>> On 3/12/2022 9:33 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> >>>>>>>> On Saturday, March 12, 2022 at 4:55:47 PM UTC-6, John
>> >>>>>>>> B. wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>> On Sat, 12 Mar 2022 19:45:36 -0000 (UTC), Roger
>> >>>>>>>>> Merriman
>> >>>>>>>>> <ro...@sarlet.com> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 3/12/2022 8:46 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Older roads tend to be steeper more direct, horse
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> and cart can be pushed up
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> the inclines, the advent of the motor car and its
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> lack of power, triggered
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> the switch back climbs being built vs just direct
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> up!
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> Interesting. Maybe 15 years ago on a solo ride, I
>> >>>>>>>>>>> came across a road
>> >>>>>>>>>>> that's well within my riding territory, but that
>> >>>>>>>>>>> I'd somehow never
>> >>>>>>>>>>> ridden. On turning a bend, I saw a fearsome
>> >>>>>>>>>>> looking climb - or rather, I
>> >>>>>>>>>>> saw that the road must go up to the top of a very
>> >>>>>>>>>>> tall ridge; the road
>> >>>>>>>>>>> itself wasn't visible through the trees.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> I very specifically thought "I'll be OK because it
>> >>>>>>>>>>> can't possibly go
>> >>>>>>>>>>> straight up. This is an old road, and a horse
>> >>>>>>>>>>> pulling a wagon could
>> >>>>>>>>>>> never make it straight up. There must be
>> >>>>>>>>>>> switchbacks."
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> I was wrong. It was straight up. I don't know the
>> >>>>>>>>>>> grade, but I remember
>> >>>>>>>>>>> being in my touring bike's granny gear and still
>> >>>>>>>>>>> needing to stand to
>> >>>>>>>>>>> complete the climb.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> So I guess my "horse and wagon" thinking was
>> >>>>>>>>>>> backwards.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> American maybe different, I assume native Americans
>> >>>>>>>>>> had pack roads in
>> >>>>>>>>>> places? But yes the old road ie few 1000 years old,
>> >>>>>>>>>> often hug the ridge
>> >>>>>>>>>> line and take a direct route, vs inclined routes
>> >>>>>>>>>> that more modern roads
>> >>>>>>>>>> use.
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> Roger Merriman
>> >>>>>>>>> I grew up in New Hampshire where certainly some
>> >>>>>>>>> roads dated back to
>> >>>>>>>>> the 1700's and I don't remember any "switchback"
>> >>>>>>>>> roads. But equally
>> >>>>>>>>> true roads didn't go up, or down, extreme
>> >>>>>>>>> slopes.There is always a way
>> >>>>>>>>> around although it may be longer (:-)
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> As for Native Americans, I doubt very much that
>> >>>>>>>>> prior to the invasion
>> >>>>>>>>> of the Europeans that had anything more then foot
>> >>>>>>>>> paths as their only
>> >>>>>>>>> "beast of burden" was a dog.
>> >>>>>>>>> --
>> >>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> John B.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> There weren't horses, mules, donkeys, oxen, cows in
>> >>>>>>>> North America before
>> >>>>>>>> Europeans brought them over in the 1600s when they
>> >>>>>>>> found America? Had
>> >>>>>>>> Native Americans invented wheels before Europeans
>> >>>>>>>> brought them over to North America?
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> There were none of those things.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> We don't think of it that way, but it was still the
>> >>>>>>> Stone Age in
>> >>>>>>> pre-Columbian North America. Pre-Columbian Indians (or
>> >>>>>>> whatever's the
>> >>>>>>> correct term this week) had some limited use of
>> >>>>>>> copper, but typically
>> >>>>>>> their tools were stone, not (say) bronze. They
>> >>>>>>> certainly had no iron or
>> >>>>>>> steel. Also no wheels, etc. However, there were
>> >>>>>>> societies and trading
>> >>>>>>> systems that were advanced in other ways.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Jared Diamond's book "Guns, Germs and Steel" is well
>> >>>>>>> worth reading.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Indeed!
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Is this the book that the PBS series was based upon that
>> >>>>> claimed the
>> >>>>> Columbus purposely infected the New World with old world
>> >>>>> diseases?
>> >>>>>
>> >>>> Been a long time since I read the book, but I don’t
>> >>>> recall purposely, after
>> >>>> all they didn’t know what caused infection at that point
>> >>>
>> >>> They didn't know what caused it but they know about
>> >>> "contagion" from before the 14th Century. But it would
>> >>> have been ridiculous for anyone to believe that a disease
>> >>> that did not show on people could infect others that had
>> >>> never been exposed to it.
>> >>>
>> >>> So the problem wasn't that Columbus or any of his crew did
>> >>> this or that but that the Woke people claimed it so.
>> >>
>> >> Please give a direct quote of a reputable historic source
>> >> that says what you claimed.
>> >>
>> >> Or to be more blunt: Stop arguing against what you wish
>> >> people said. Pay attention to what they've actually said.
>> >> Take notes so you can tell the difference, because your
>> >> "memory" isn't working.
>> >>
>> >
>> > A University if not The University at Columbus Ohio.
>> >
>> > https://u.osu.edu/posterchildchristophercolumbus/villain-columbus/
>> >
>> > Under the heading 'Villain Columbus' we read, "Thousands of
>> > them were killed either by disease, by overworking or by the
>> > hands of Columbus and his men."
>> >
>> >
>> Indeed, but realistically the disease isn’t deliberate, and frankly sins of
>> your father only go so far.
>>
>> Roger Merriman
>
>How about when the British gave blankets from smallpox wards to the natives?
>
>Cheers

On Mon, 14 Mar 2022 14:46:28 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, March 14, 2022 at 2:23:01 PM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
>> On Monday, March 14, 2022 at 8:04:46 a.m. UTC-4, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> > AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> > > On 3/13/2022 9:10 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> > >> On 3/13/2022 7:41 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> > >>> On Sunday, March 13, 2022 at 4:27:36 PM UTC-7, Roger
>> > >>> Merriman wrote:
>> > >>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >>>>> On Sunday, March 13, 2022 at 11:29:11 AM UTC-7, Roger
>> > >>>>> Merriman wrote:
>> > >>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> > >>>>>>> On 3/12/2022 9:33 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> > >>>>>>>> On Saturday, March 12, 2022 at 4:55:47 PM UTC-6, John
>> > >>>>>>>> B. wrote:
>> > >>>>>>>>> On Sat, 12 Mar 2022 19:45:36 -0000 (UTC), Roger
>> > >>>>>>>>> Merriman
>> > >>>>>>>>> <ro...@sarlet.com> wrote:
>> > >>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> On 3/12/2022 8:46 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Older roads tend to be steeper more direct, horse
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> and cart can be pushed up
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> the inclines, the advent of the motor car and its
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> lack of power, triggered
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> the switch back climbs being built vs just direct
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> up!
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Interesting. Maybe 15 years ago on a solo ride, I
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> came across a road
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> that's well within my riding territory, but that
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> I'd somehow never
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> ridden. On turning a bend, I saw a fearsome
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> looking climb - or rather, I
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> saw that the road must go up to the top of a very
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> tall ridge; the road
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> itself wasn't visible through the trees.
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> I very specifically thought "I'll be OK because it
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> can't possibly go
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> straight up. This is an old road, and a horse
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> pulling a wagon could
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> never make it straight up. There must be
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> switchbacks."
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> I was wrong. It was straight up. I don't know the
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> grade, but I remember
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> being in my touring bike's granny gear and still
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> needing to stand to
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> complete the climb.
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> So I guess my "horse and wagon" thinking was
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> backwards.
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>> American maybe different, I assume native Americans
>> > >>>>>>>>>> had pack roads in
>> > >>>>>>>>>> places? But yes the old road ie few 1000 years old,
>> > >>>>>>>>>> often hug the ridge
>> > >>>>>>>>>> line and take a direct route, vs inclined routes
>> > >>>>>>>>>> that more modern roads
>> > >>>>>>>>>> use.
>> > >>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>> Roger Merriman
>> > >>>>>>>>> I grew up in New Hampshire where certainly some
>> > >>>>>>>>> roads dated back to
>> > >>>>>>>>> the 1700's and I don't remember any "switchback"
>> > >>>>>>>>> roads. But equally
>> > >>>>>>>>> true roads didn't go up, or down, extreme
>> > >>>>>>>>> slopes.There is always a way
>> > >>>>>>>>> around although it may be longer (:-)
>> > >>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>> As for Native Americans, I doubt very much that
>> > >>>>>>>>> prior to the invasion
>> > >>>>>>>>> of the Europeans that had anything more then foot
>> > >>>>>>>>> paths as their only
>> > >>>>>>>>> "beast of burden" was a dog.
>> > >>>>>>>>> --
>> > >>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>> > >>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>> John B.
>> > >>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>> There weren't horses, mules, donkeys, oxen, cows in
>> > >>>>>>>> North America before
>> > >>>>>>>> Europeans brought them over in the 1600s when they
>> > >>>>>>>> found America? Had
>> > >>>>>>>> Native Americans invented wheels before Europeans
>> > >>>>>>>> brought them over to North America?
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>> There were none of those things.
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>> We don't think of it that way, but it was still the
>> > >>>>>>> Stone Age in
>> > >>>>>>> pre-Columbian North America. Pre-Columbian Indians (or
>> > >>>>>>> whatever's the
>> > >>>>>>> correct term this week) had some limited use of
>> > >>>>>>> copper, but typically
>> > >>>>>>> their tools were stone, not (say) bronze. They
>> > >>>>>>> certainly had no iron or
>> > >>>>>>> steel. Also no wheels, etc. However, there were
>> > >>>>>>> societies and trading
>> > >>>>>>> systems that were advanced in other ways.
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>> Jared Diamond's book "Guns, Germs and Steel" is well
>> > >>>>>>> worth reading.
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>> Indeed!
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> Is this the book that the PBS series was based upon that
>> > >>>>> claimed the
>> > >>>>> Columbus purposely infected the New World with old world
>> > >>>>> diseases?
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>> Been a long time since I read the book, but I don’t
>> > >>>> recall purposely, after
>> > >>>> all they didn’t know what caused infection at that point
>> > >>>
>> > >>> They didn't know what caused it but they know about
>> > >>> "contagion" from before the 14th Century. But it would
>> > >>> have been ridiculous for anyone to believe that a disease
>> > >>> that did not show on people could infect others that had
>> > >>> never been exposed to it.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> So the problem wasn't that Columbus or any of his crew did
>> > >>> this or that but that the Woke people claimed it so.
>> > >>
>> > >> Please give a direct quote of a reputable historic source
>> > >> that says what you claimed.
>> > >>
>> > >> Or to be more blunt: Stop arguing against what you wish
>> > >> people said. Pay attention to what they've actually said.
>> > >> Take notes so you can tell the difference, because your
>> > >> "memory" isn't working.
>> > >>
>> > >
>> > > A University if not The University at Columbus Ohio.
>> > >
>> > > https://u.osu.edu/posterchildchristophercolumbus/villain-columbus/
>> > >
>> > > Under the heading 'Villain Columbus' we read, "Thousands of
>> > > them were killed either by disease, by overworking or by the
>> > > hands of Columbus and his men."
>> > >
>> > >
>> > Indeed, but realistically the disease isn’t deliberate, and frankly sins of
>> > your father only go so far.
>> >
>> > Roger Merriman
>> How about when the British gave blankets from smallpox wards to the natives?
>
>Since the germ theory of pathogens was discovered 1860-1864 by Louis Pasteur exactly when were these blankets handed out and could it have been possible that they were washed first which would have rendered them safe?