On Sunday, April 3, 2022 at 10:35:05 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, April 2, 2022 at 6:01:24 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > On 4/2/2022 7:26 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > On 4/2/2022 10:14 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > >>
> > >> I have right next to me here a titanium frame that Lemond
> > >> tried to build lighter than a good steel frame. Someone
> > >> rode it a small collision of some sort and it literally
> > >> shattered.
> > >
> > > Titanium shattered??
> > >
> > > I'd love to see photos of that damage. Care to post them
> > > somewhere and give us a link?
> > >
> > Failure mode depends on the type of titanium used, wall
> > thickness, tube quality, weld quality, design, fixture setup
> > and assembly rigor, and the nature and magnitude of the impact.
> >
> > To be clear I've never seen 'shattered' to include a pile of
> > titanium chips in the lane. The dramatic ones are big almost
> > longitudinal cracks out from a welded joint.
> >
> > https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikeforums.net-vbulletin/907x1210/broken_gold_rush_frame_2_sm_47a09d26c67d4d883de3d20a7eca71160011c0b4.jpg
> >
> > The more common Ti frame failures are cracks perpendicular
> > to the weld as we see with thin high-temper modern steel TIG
> > frames.
> >
> > http://i.stack.imgur.com/eGqcB.jpg
> I absolutely agree with you. My point was that if you actually try to build a superlight titanium frame it will NOT be strong enough to perform well as a road bike.

Litespeed made the Ghisallo model. It was around 850 grams. I knew a woman who rode one very well. I do not know if 6 foot 10 inch 300 pound NFL linemen rode Ghisallo models or not.

On Sunday, April 3, 2022 at 10:35:05 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, April 2, 2022 at 6:01:24 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > On 4/2/2022 7:26 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > On 4/2/2022 10:14 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > >>
> > >> I have right next to me here a titanium frame that Lemond
> > >> tried to build lighter than a good steel frame. Someone
> > >> rode it a small collision of some sort and it literally
> > >> shattered.
> > >
> > > Titanium shattered??
> > >
> > > I'd love to see photos of that damage. Care to post them
> > > somewhere and give us a link?
> > >
> > Failure mode depends on the type of titanium used, wall
> > thickness, tube quality, weld quality, design, fixture setup
> > and assembly rigor, and the nature and magnitude of the impact.
> >
> > To be clear I've never seen 'shattered' to include a pile of
> > titanium chips in the lane. The dramatic ones are big almost
> > longitudinal cracks out from a welded joint.
> >
> > https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikeforums.net-vbulletin/907x1210/broken_gold_rush_frame_2_sm_47a09d26c67d4d883de3d20a7eca71160011c0b4.jpg
> >
> > The more common Ti frame failures are cracks perpendicular
> > to the weld as we see with thin high-temper modern steel TIG
> > frames.
> >
> > http://i.stack.imgur.com/eGqcB.jpg
> I absolutely agree with you. My point was that if you actually try to build a superlight titanium frame it will NOT be strong enough to perform well as a road bike.

Not sure how your superlight titanium frame compares to the aluminum ALAN and Vitus frames of the 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s. They were around 1200 grams for frame plus another 450 or so for the aluminum fork. Superlight? Much lighter than steel at the time. ALAN frames won all of the cyclocross races in the 1970s. Sean Kelly rode the Vitus 979 frame successfully in the 80s and 90s. Are you saying Sean Kelly did not have a good road bike?

On 4/3/2022 5:29 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Sunday, April 3, 2022 at 10:35:05 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Saturday, April 2, 2022 at 6:01:24 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 4/2/2022 7:26 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 4/2/2022 10:14 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I have right next to me here a titanium frame that Lemond
>>>>> tried to build lighter than a good steel frame. Someone
>>>>> rode it a small collision of some sort and it literally
>>>>> shattered.
>>>>
>>>> Titanium shattered??
>>>>
>>>> I'd love to see photos of that damage. Care to post them
>>>> somewhere and give us a link?
>>>>
>>> Failure mode depends on the type of titanium used, wall
>>> thickness, tube quality, weld quality, design, fixture setup
>>> and assembly rigor, and the nature and magnitude of the impact.
>>>
>>> To be clear I've never seen 'shattered' to include a pile of
>>> titanium chips in the lane. The dramatic ones are big almost
>>> longitudinal cracks out from a welded joint.
>>>
>>> https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikeforums.net-vbulletin/907x1210/broken_gold_rush_frame_2_sm_47a09d26c67d4d883de3d20a7eca71160011c0b4.jpg
>>>
>>> The more common Ti frame failures are cracks perpendicular
>>> to the weld as we see with thin high-temper modern steel TIG
>>> frames.
>>>
>>> http://i.stack.imgur.com/eGqcB.jpg
>> I absolutely agree with you. My point was that if you actually try to build a superlight titanium frame it will NOT be strong enough to perform well as a road bike.
>
> Litespeed made the Ghisallo model. It was around 850 grams. I knew a woman who rode one very well. I do not know if 6 foot 10 inch 300 pound NFL linemen rode Ghisallo models or not.
>

Every manufactured thing has some measurable incidence of
failure. In modern bicycles the rates are extremely small,
which is part of why they interest us.

BTW a 66cm frame is normally built with proportionally
heavier gauge tube.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sun, 3 Apr 2022 11:29:01 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 4/2/2022 9:01 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 4/2/2022 7:26 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 4/2/2022 10:14 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I have right next to me here a titanium frame that Lemond
>>>> tried to build lighter than a good steel frame. Someone
>>>> rode it a small collision of some sort and it literally
>>>> shattered.
>>>
>>> Titanium shattered??
>>>
>>> I'd love to see photos of that damage. Care to post them
>>> somewhere and give us a link?
>>>
>>
>> Failure mode depends on the type of titanium used, wall thickness, tube
>> quality, weld quality, design, fixture setup and assembly rigor, and the
>> nature and magnitude of the impact.
>>
>> To be clear I've never seen 'shattered' to include a pile of titanium
>> chips in the lane. The dramatic ones are big almost longitudinal cracks
>> out from a welded joint.
>>
>> https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikeforums.net-vbulletin/907x1210/broken_gold_rush_frame_2_sm_47a09d26c67d4d883de3d20a7eca71160011c0b4.jpg
>
>Interesting. Do you know much about how that failure occurred?
>
>I'll admit that I don't know much about welding titanium. But those are
>pretty massive welds behind the head tube, and to me the crack hints
>that the head tube itself was in circumferential tension, with stresses
>pulling towards the welds. It makes me wonder if some post-weld stress
>relief heat treatment would be worthwhile.
>
>This video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GFO4uss0VM makes no mention
>of any heat treatment. But it also makes no mention of inert gas
>shielding, which I'm sure they're using, so I wonder if it's just not
>detailed enough. It looks like the frame tubes are plugged, so I suppose
>argon or whatever is protecting the inside (back side) of the welds.

Well, I can tell you from experience that the weld is being protected
by some inert gas while welding. As he seems to be welding without the
inert gas filled "welding Chamber" that was used when I 'certified"
then they must be flooding the weld area with a much higher then
normal gas flow through the torch.
..
The giveaway statement is his reference to the color of the weld bead.
The clear or only faintly yellow color he mentions can only be
attained if oxygen is not in contact with the metal while being
welded.

I would question how are they protecting the back of the weld? I don't
see any gas hoses inserted into the frame to purge the back of the
weld.

Note that a 100% weld is a weld that the entire thickness of the metal
being welded is melted and thus protection is needed on both sides of
the material.

Another note: When I certifying any color at all of the weld bead or
parent metal, when welding titanium, was reason to condemn the weld.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sun, 03 Apr 2022 09:11:23 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 4/2/2022 9:11 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Sat, 02 Apr 2022 20:01:20 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 4/2/2022 7:26 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 4/2/2022 10:14 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I have right next to me here a titanium frame that Lemond
>>>>> tried to build lighter than a good steel frame. Someone
>>>>> rode it a small collision of some sort and it literally
>>>>> shattered.
>>>>
>>>> Titanium shattered??
>>>>
>>>> I'd love to see photos of that damage. Care to post them
>>>> somewhere and give us a link?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Failure mode depends on the type of titanium used, wall
>>> thickness, tube quality, weld quality, design, fixture setup
>>> and assembly rigor, and the nature and magnitude of the impact.
>>>
>>> To be clear I've never seen 'shattered' to include a pile of
>>> titanium chips in the lane. The dramatic ones are big almost
>>> longitudinal cracks out from a welded joint.
>>>
>>> https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikeforums.net-vbulletin/907x1210/broken_gold_rush_frame_2_sm_47a09d26c67d4d883de3d20a7eca71160011c0b4.jpg
>>>
>>> The more common Ti frame failures are cracks perpendicular
>>> to the weld as we see with thin high-temper modern steel TIG
>>> frames.
>>>
>>> http://i.stack.imgur.com/eGqcB.jpg
>>
>> Out of curiosity do you see similar cracks, apparently originating in
>> the weld bead, in welded steel frame bicycles?
>>
>> I once certified on Titanium and for that test welds were made in an
>> enclosed box flooded with an inert gas. A friend, who worked at a
>> aircraft depot later told me that they had made some welds in the open
>> air by "flooding" the weld region with an inert gas. (which made me
>> wonder about how, or what, the welder was breathing (:-)
>>
>
>Yes, I remember argon weld chambers for Ti but now the
>standard technique is to flood the weld zone. I am not an
>expert on the details, never done it myself.
>
>Modern thin high-temper TIG steel frames crack out from the
>weld as second image link above. Traditional brazed frame
>cracks usually follow the joint, along it or parallel.

Obviously one cannot really diagnose a problems from simply looking at
photos but one might think what when a crack started in a weld that
the weld was, perhaps, imperfect.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sun, 03 Apr 2022 12:48:29 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 4/3/2022 10:29 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 4/2/2022 9:01 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 4/2/2022 7:26 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 4/2/2022 10:14 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I have right next to me here a titanium frame that Lemond
>>>>> tried to build lighter than a good steel frame. Someone
>>>>> rode it a small collision of some sort and it literally
>>>>> shattered.
>>>>
>>>> Titanium shattered??
>>>>
>>>> I'd love to see photos of that damage. Care to post them
>>>> somewhere and give us a link?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Failure mode depends on the type of titanium used, wall
>>> thickness, tube quality, weld quality, design, fixture
>>> setup and assembly rigor, and the nature and magnitude of
>>> the impact.
>>>
>>> To be clear I've never seen 'shattered' to include a pile
>>> of titanium chips in the lane. The dramatic ones are big
>>> almost longitudinal cracks out from a welded joint.
>>>
>>> https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikeforums.net-vbulletin/907x1210/broken_gold_rush_frame_2_sm_47a09d26c67d4d883de3d20a7eca71160011c0b4.jpg
>>
>>
>> Interesting. Do you know much about how that failure occurred?
>>
>> I'll admit that I don't know much about welding titanium.
>> But those are pretty massive welds behind the head tube, and
>> to me the crack hints that the head tube itself was in
>> circumferential tension, with stresses pulling towards the
>> welds. It makes me wonder if some post-weld stress relief
>> heat treatment would be worthwhile.
>>
>> This video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GFO4uss0VM makes
>> no mention of any heat treatment. But it also makes no
>> mention of inert gas shielding, which I'm sure they're
>> using, so I wonder if it's just not detailed enough. It
>> looks like the frame tubes are plugged, so I suppose argon
>> or whatever is protecting the inside (back side) of the welds.
>>
>>
>>
>
>I don't know the specifics, that's a web image I found
>yesterday. But it's typical of the crack form & direction,
>although I've seen more Ti cracks at the BB than anywhere else.

And a BB usually has two weld beads in close proximity to each other.
Thus if it is the welds that are at fault the problem would probably
be maximized there.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 4/3/2022 7:24 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Sun, 3 Apr 2022 11:29:01 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> On 4/2/2022 9:01 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 4/2/2022 7:26 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 4/2/2022 10:14 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I have right next to me here a titanium frame that Lemond
>>>>> tried to build lighter than a good steel frame. Someone
>>>>> rode it a small collision of some sort and it literally
>>>>> shattered.
>>>>
>>>> Titanium shattered??
>>>>
>>>> I'd love to see photos of that damage. Care to post them
>>>> somewhere and give us a link?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Failure mode depends on the type of titanium used, wall thickness, tube
>>> quality, weld quality, design, fixture setup and assembly rigor, and the
>>> nature and magnitude of the impact.
>>>
>>> To be clear I've never seen 'shattered' to include a pile of titanium
>>> chips in the lane. The dramatic ones are big almost longitudinal cracks
>>> out from a welded joint.
>>>
>>> https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikeforums.net-vbulletin/907x1210/broken_gold_rush_frame_2_sm_47a09d26c67d4d883de3d20a7eca71160011c0b4.jpg
>>
>> Interesting. Do you know much about how that failure occurred?
>>
>> I'll admit that I don't know much about welding titanium. But those are
>> pretty massive welds behind the head tube, and to me the crack hints
>> that the head tube itself was in circumferential tension, with stresses
>> pulling towards the welds. It makes me wonder if some post-weld stress
>> relief heat treatment would be worthwhile.
>>
>> This video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GFO4uss0VM makes no mention
>> of any heat treatment. But it also makes no mention of inert gas
>> shielding, which I'm sure they're using, so I wonder if it's just not
>> detailed enough. It looks like the frame tubes are plugged, so I suppose
>> argon or whatever is protecting the inside (back side) of the welds.
>
> Well, I can tell you from experience that the weld is being protected
> by some inert gas while welding. As he seems to be welding without the
> inert gas filled "welding Chamber" that was used when I 'certified"
> then they must be flooding the weld area with a much higher then
> normal gas flow through the torch.
> .
> The giveaway statement is his reference to the color of the weld bead.
> The clear or only faintly yellow color he mentions can only be
> attained if oxygen is not in contact with the metal while being
> welded.
>
> I would question how are they protecting the back of the weld? I don't
> see any gas hoses inserted into the frame to purge the back of the
> weld.
>
> Note that a 100% weld is a weld that the entire thickness of the metal
> being welded is melted and thus protection is needed on both sides of
> the material.
>
> Another note: When I certifying any color at all of the weld bead or
> parent metal, when welding titanium, was reason to condemn the weld.
>

Yes, we agree on those points.
Generally:
https://www.thefabricator.com/tubepipejournal/article/arcwelding/tig-for-titanium-tubing

Specifically for bicycle frame construction:
https://www.weldingtipsandtricks.com/titanium-bike.html
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 4/3/2022 7:28 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Sun, 03 Apr 2022 09:11:23 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> On 4/2/2022 9:11 PM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Sat, 02 Apr 2022 20:01:20 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 4/2/2022 7:26 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>> On 4/2/2022 10:14 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have right next to me here a titanium frame that Lemond
>>>>>> tried to build lighter than a good steel frame. Someone
>>>>>> rode it a small collision of some sort and it literally
>>>>>> shattered.
>>>>>
>>>>> Titanium shattered??
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd love to see photos of that damage. Care to post them
>>>>> somewhere and give us a link?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Failure mode depends on the type of titanium used, wall
>>>> thickness, tube quality, weld quality, design, fixture setup
>>>> and assembly rigor, and the nature and magnitude of the impact.
>>>>
>>>> To be clear I've never seen 'shattered' to include a pile of
>>>> titanium chips in the lane. The dramatic ones are big almost
>>>> longitudinal cracks out from a welded joint.
>>>>
>>>> https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikeforums.net-vbulletin/907x1210/broken_gold_rush_frame_2_sm_47a09d26c67d4d883de3d20a7eca71160011c0b4.jpg
>>>>
>>>> The more common Ti frame failures are cracks perpendicular
>>>> to the weld as we see with thin high-temper modern steel TIG
>>>> frames.
>>>>
>>>> http://i.stack.imgur.com/eGqcB.jpg
>>>
>>> Out of curiosity do you see similar cracks, apparently originating in
>>> the weld bead, in welded steel frame bicycles?
>>>
>>> I once certified on Titanium and for that test welds were made in an
>>> enclosed box flooded with an inert gas. A friend, who worked at a
>>> aircraft depot later told me that they had made some welds in the open
>>> air by "flooding" the weld region with an inert gas. (which made me
>>> wonder about how, or what, the welder was breathing (:-)
>>>
>>
>> Yes, I remember argon weld chambers for Ti but now the
>> standard technique is to flood the weld zone. I am not an
>> expert on the details, never done it myself.
>>
>> Modern thin high-temper TIG steel frames crack out from the
>> weld as second image link above. Traditional brazed frame
>> cracks usually follow the joint, along it or parallel.
>
> Obviously one cannot really diagnose a problems from simply looking at
> photos but one might think what when a crack started in a weld that
> the weld was, perhaps, imperfect.
>

You might think so. And it may well be.

But as often as not, joint failure results from closed
figures (such as a bicycle frame) joined after being forced
into a fixture with residual stress unrelieved:

one example of many:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/soviet.html
more:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/zito.html

And sometimes, as this expensive titanium fork, designer[1]
called for an insufficiently thick material:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/hand14.html

[1]I'm assuming here that no actual engineers were involved
in that multiple-failure process.

Note also that while there's a complete weld failure at the
axle slot, a more typical titanium crack is at the brace
holder- extending perpendicular from the weld.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 4/3/2022 7:30 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Sun, 03 Apr 2022 12:48:29 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> On 4/3/2022 10:29 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 4/2/2022 9:01 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 4/2/2022 7:26 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>> On 4/2/2022 10:14 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have right next to me here a titanium frame that Lemond
>>>>>> tried to build lighter than a good steel frame. Someone
>>>>>> rode it a small collision of some sort and it literally
>>>>>> shattered.
>>>>>
>>>>> Titanium shattered??
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd love to see photos of that damage. Care to post them
>>>>> somewhere and give us a link?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Failure mode depends on the type of titanium used, wall
>>>> thickness, tube quality, weld quality, design, fixture
>>>> setup and assembly rigor, and the nature and magnitude of
>>>> the impact.
>>>>
>>>> To be clear I've never seen 'shattered' to include a pile
>>>> of titanium chips in the lane. The dramatic ones are big
>>>> almost longitudinal cracks out from a welded joint.
>>>>
>>>> https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikeforums.net-vbulletin/907x1210/broken_gold_rush_frame_2_sm_47a09d26c67d4d883de3d20a7eca71160011c0b4.jpg
>>>
>>>
>>> Interesting. Do you know much about how that failure occurred?
>>>
>>> I'll admit that I don't know much about welding titanium.
>>> But those are pretty massive welds behind the head tube, and
>>> to me the crack hints that the head tube itself was in
>>> circumferential tension, with stresses pulling towards the
>>> welds. It makes me wonder if some post-weld stress relief
>>> heat treatment would be worthwhile.
>>>
>>> This video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GFO4uss0VM makes
>>> no mention of any heat treatment. But it also makes no
>>> mention of inert gas shielding, which I'm sure they're
>>> using, so I wonder if it's just not detailed enough. It
>>> looks like the frame tubes are plugged, so I suppose argon
>>> or whatever is protecting the inside (back side) of the welds.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I don't know the specifics, that's a web image I found
>> yesterday. But it's typical of the crack form & direction,
>> although I've seen more Ti cracks at the BB than anywhere else.
>
> And a BB usually has two weld beads in close proximity to each other.
> Thus if it is the welds that are at fault the problem would probably
> be maximized there.
>

Could be.
IMHO it's because that's the portion of a bicycle most
flexed and in several planes. Cyclically.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sun, 03 Apr 2022 20:05:53 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 4/3/2022 7:30 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Sun, 03 Apr 2022 12:48:29 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 4/3/2022 10:29 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 4/2/2022 9:01 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>> On 4/2/2022 7:26 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>> On 4/2/2022 10:14 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have right next to me here a titanium frame that Lemond
>>>>>>> tried to build lighter than a good steel frame. Someone
>>>>>>> rode it a small collision of some sort and it literally
>>>>>>> shattered.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Titanium shattered??
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'd love to see photos of that damage. Care to post them
>>>>>> somewhere and give us a link?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Failure mode depends on the type of titanium used, wall
>>>>> thickness, tube quality, weld quality, design, fixture
>>>>> setup and assembly rigor, and the nature and magnitude of
>>>>> the impact.
>>>>>
>>>>> To be clear I've never seen 'shattered' to include a pile
>>>>> of titanium chips in the lane. The dramatic ones are big
>>>>> almost longitudinal cracks out from a welded joint.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikeforums.net-vbulletin/907x1210/broken_gold_rush_frame_2_sm_47a09d26c67d4d883de3d20a7eca71160011c0b4.jpg
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Interesting. Do you know much about how that failure occurred?
>>>>
>>>> I'll admit that I don't know much about welding titanium.
>>>> But those are pretty massive welds behind the head tube, and
>>>> to me the crack hints that the head tube itself was in
>>>> circumferential tension, with stresses pulling towards the
>>>> welds. It makes me wonder if some post-weld stress relief
>>>> heat treatment would be worthwhile.
>>>>
>>>> This video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GFO4uss0VM makes
>>>> no mention of any heat treatment. But it also makes no
>>>> mention of inert gas shielding, which I'm sure they're
>>>> using, so I wonder if it's just not detailed enough. It
>>>> looks like the frame tubes are plugged, so I suppose argon
>>>> or whatever is protecting the inside (back side) of the welds.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> I don't know the specifics, that's a web image I found
>>> yesterday. But it's typical of the crack form & direction,
>>> although I've seen more Ti cracks at the BB than anywhere else.
>>
>> And a BB usually has two weld beads in close proximity to each other.
>> Thus if it is the welds that are at fault the problem would probably
>> be maximized there.
>>
>
>Could be.
>IMHO it's because that's the portion of a bicycle most
>flexed and in several planes. Cyclically.

True. I wasn't thinking of that as I assumed that the structure was
properly designed to avoid unusual stresses, Or perhaps I should say
stresses beyond what the fabrication was designed to withstand, as
there is always stress..
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sunday, April 3, 2022 at 5:24:37 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
> On Sun, 3 Apr 2022 11:29:01 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> >On 4/2/2022 9:01 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 4/2/2022 7:26 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>> On 4/2/2022 10:14 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> I have right next to me here a titanium frame that Lemond
> >>>> tried to build lighter than a good steel frame. Someone
> >>>> rode it a small collision of some sort and it literally
> >>>> shattered.
> >>>
> >>> Titanium shattered??
> >>>
> >>> I'd love to see photos of that damage. Care to post them
> >>> somewhere and give us a link?
> >>>
> >>
> >> Failure mode depends on the type of titanium used, wall thickness, tube
> >> quality, weld quality, design, fixture setup and assembly rigor, and the
> >> nature and magnitude of the impact.
> >>
> >> To be clear I've never seen 'shattered' to include a pile of titanium
> >> chips in the lane. The dramatic ones are big almost longitudinal cracks
> >> out from a welded joint.
> >>
> >> https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikeforums.net-vbulletin/907x1210/broken_gold_rush_frame_2_sm_47a09d26c67d4d883de3d20a7eca71160011c0b4.jpg
> >
> >Interesting. Do you know much about how that failure occurred?
> >
> >I'll admit that I don't know much about welding titanium. But those are
> >pretty massive welds behind the head tube, and to me the crack hints
> >that the head tube itself was in circumferential tension, with stresses
> >pulling towards the welds. It makes me wonder if some post-weld stress
> >relief heat treatment would be worthwhile.
> >
> >This video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GFO4uss0VM makes no mention
> >of any heat treatment. But it also makes no mention of inert gas
> >shielding, which I'm sure they're using, so I wonder if it's just not
> >detailed enough. It looks like the frame tubes are plugged, so I suppose
> >argon or whatever is protecting the inside (back side) of the welds.
> Well, I can tell you from experience that the weld is being protected
> by some inert gas while welding. As he seems to be welding without the
> inert gas filled "welding Chamber" that was used when I 'certified"
> then they must be flooding the weld area with a much higher then
> normal gas flow through the torch.
> .
> The giveaway statement is his reference to the color of the weld bead.
> The clear or only faintly yellow color he mentions can only be
> attained if oxygen is not in contact with the metal while being
> welded.
>
> I would question how are they protecting the back of the weld? I don't
> see any gas hoses inserted into the frame to purge the back of the
> weld.
>
> Note that a 100% weld is a weld that the entire thickness of the metal
> being welded is melted and thus protection is needed on both sides of
> the material.
>
> Another note: When I certifying any color at all of the weld bead or
> parent metal, when welding titanium, was reason to condemn the weld.

I wondered about the lack of hoses, etc. to feed argon to the back of the weld. in that video.
I wondered if it's sufficient to seal the frame except for suitable inlet and exhaust
vents, then fill with argon and close those vents.

Also, I note that one of Andrew's links mentions the need for a trailing shield to ensure
the hot metal is protected with argon. I don't see that in the video.

BTW, part of the reason for my question about post-weld stress relief: The first large
scale welding project I ever did was a 4' x 6' x 1' deep utility trailer that I've mentioned here. All the
pieces that made up its steel skeleton were accurately cut, clamped, tacked then welded -
at least, within my abilities as a freshman welder. I held the bottom pieces in place on the shop floor
with heavy weights as I welded everything in place on top of them. But when I released the
welded assembly, it was no longer flat. Residual stresses from the welds and surrounding
metal cooling put a visible twist in the trailer's frame. It wasn't enough to affect function so I
didn't try to correct it, but it indicates how cooling metal can exert stresses.

- Frank Krygowski

On Sun, 3 Apr 2022 19:23:14 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, April 3, 2022 at 5:24:37 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
>> On Sun, 3 Apr 2022 11:29:01 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>> >On 4/2/2022 9:01 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> >> On 4/2/2022 7:26 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> >>> On 4/2/2022 10:14 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I have right next to me here a titanium frame that Lemond
>> >>>> tried to build lighter than a good steel frame. Someone
>> >>>> rode it a small collision of some sort and it literally
>> >>>> shattered.
>> >>>
>> >>> Titanium shattered??
>> >>>
>> >>> I'd love to see photos of that damage. Care to post them
>> >>> somewhere and give us a link?
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> Failure mode depends on the type of titanium used, wall thickness, tube
>> >> quality, weld quality, design, fixture setup and assembly rigor, and the
>> >> nature and magnitude of the impact.
>> >>
>> >> To be clear I've never seen 'shattered' to include a pile of titanium
>> >> chips in the lane. The dramatic ones are big almost longitudinal cracks
>> >> out from a welded joint.
>> >>
>> >> https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikeforums.net-vbulletin/907x1210/broken_gold_rush_frame_2_sm_47a09d26c67d4d883de3d20a7eca71160011c0b4.jpg
>> >
>> >Interesting. Do you know much about how that failure occurred?
>> >
>> >I'll admit that I don't know much about welding titanium. But those are
>> >pretty massive welds behind the head tube, and to me the crack hints
>> >that the head tube itself was in circumferential tension, with stresses
>> >pulling towards the welds. It makes me wonder if some post-weld stress
>> >relief heat treatment would be worthwhile.
>> >
>> >This video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GFO4uss0VM makes no mention
>> >of any heat treatment. But it also makes no mention of inert gas
>> >shielding, which I'm sure they're using, so I wonder if it's just not
>> >detailed enough. It looks like the frame tubes are plugged, so I suppose
>> >argon or whatever is protecting the inside (back side) of the welds.
>> Well, I can tell you from experience that the weld is being protected
>> by some inert gas while welding. As he seems to be welding without the
>> inert gas filled "welding Chamber" that was used when I 'certified"
>> then they must be flooding the weld area with a much higher then
>> normal gas flow through the torch.
>> .
>> The giveaway statement is his reference to the color of the weld bead.
>> The clear or only faintly yellow color he mentions can only be
>> attained if oxygen is not in contact with the metal while being
>> welded.
>>
>> I would question how are they protecting the back of the weld? I don't
>> see any gas hoses inserted into the frame to purge the back of the
>> weld.
>>
>> Note that a 100% weld is a weld that the entire thickness of the metal
>> being welded is melted and thus protection is needed on both sides of
>> the material.
>>
>> Another note: When I certifying any color at all of the weld bead or
>> parent metal, when welding titanium, was reason to condemn the weld.
>
>I wondered about the lack of hoses, etc. to feed argon to the back of the weld. in that video.
>I wondered if it's sufficient to seal the frame except for suitable inlet and exhaust
>vents, then fill with argon and close those vents.
>
>Also, I note that one of Andrew's links mentions the need for a trailing shield to ensure
>the hot metal is protected with argon. I don't see that in the video.
>
>BTW, part of the reason for my question about post-weld stress relief: The first large
>scale welding project I ever did was a 4' x 6' x 1' deep utility trailer that I've mentioned here. All the
>pieces that made up its steel skeleton were accurately cut, clamped, tacked then welded -
> at least, within my abilities as a freshman welder. I held the bottom pieces in place on the shop floor
>with heavy weights as I welded everything in place on top of them. But when I released the
>welded assembly, it was no longer flat. Residual stresses from the welds and surrounding
>metal cooling put a visible twist in the trailer's frame. It wasn't enough to affect function so I
>didn't try to correct it, but it indicates how cooling metal can exert stresses.
>
>- Frank Krygowski

(:-)
Years ago I was in the Welding shop when the supervisor told a young
fellow to weld two 4' X 8' 1/4" steel plates. "Just lay them flat on
the floor and tack weld them every few inches before you start welding
them". And off we went to the coffee shop or wherever we were headed
for.

The young chap, apparently not believing the Grizzled Old Welding
Supervisor laid the two plates on the floor and started welding from
one end. By the time we got back be had welded about 2 feet and the
other end of the two plates had spread and must have been a 4" gap
between the two plates.

I do give the Welding Supervisor some credit. Instead of jumping up
and down and screaming he just said, "Well, order another two plates
and then do what I told you to do".
(:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 4/3/2022 9:23 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On Sunday, April 3, 2022 at 5:24:37 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
>> On Sun, 3 Apr 2022 11:29:01 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 4/2/2022 9:01 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 4/2/2022 7:26 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>> On 4/2/2022 10:14 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have right next to me here a titanium frame that Lemond
>>>>>> tried to build lighter than a good steel frame. Someone
>>>>>> rode it a small collision of some sort and it literally
>>>>>> shattered.
>>>>>
>>>>> Titanium shattered??
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd love to see photos of that damage. Care to post them
>>>>> somewhere and give us a link?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Failure mode depends on the type of titanium used, wall thickness, tube
>>>> quality, weld quality, design, fixture setup and assembly rigor, and the
>>>> nature and magnitude of the impact.
>>>>
>>>> To be clear I've never seen 'shattered' to include a pile of titanium
>>>> chips in the lane. The dramatic ones are big almost longitudinal cracks
>>>> out from a welded joint.
>>>>
>>>> https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikeforums.net-vbulletin/907x1210/broken_gold_rush_frame_2_sm_47a09d26c67d4d883de3d20a7eca71160011c0b4.jpg
>>>
>>> Interesting. Do you know much about how that failure occurred?
>>>
>>> I'll admit that I don't know much about welding titanium. But those are
>>> pretty massive welds behind the head tube, and to me the crack hints
>>> that the head tube itself was in circumferential tension, with stresses
>>> pulling towards the welds. It makes me wonder if some post-weld stress
>>> relief heat treatment would be worthwhile.
>>>
>>> This video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GFO4uss0VM makes no mention
>>> of any heat treatment. But it also makes no mention of inert gas
>>> shielding, which I'm sure they're using, so I wonder if it's just not
>>> detailed enough. It looks like the frame tubes are plugged, so I suppose
>>> argon or whatever is protecting the inside (back side) of the welds.
>> Well, I can tell you from experience that the weld is being protected
>> by some inert gas while welding. As he seems to be welding without the
>> inert gas filled "welding Chamber" that was used when I 'certified"
>> then they must be flooding the weld area with a much higher then
>> normal gas flow through the torch.
>> .
>> The giveaway statement is his reference to the color of the weld bead.
>> The clear or only faintly yellow color he mentions can only be
>> attained if oxygen is not in contact with the metal while being
>> welded.
>>
>> I would question how are they protecting the back of the weld? I don't
>> see any gas hoses inserted into the frame to purge the back of the
>> weld.
>>
>> Note that a 100% weld is a weld that the entire thickness of the metal
>> being welded is melted and thus protection is needed on both sides of
>> the material.
>>
>> Another note: When I certifying any color at all of the weld bead or
>> parent metal, when welding titanium, was reason to condemn the weld.
>
> I wondered about the lack of hoses, etc. to feed argon to the back of the weld. in that video.
> I wondered if it's sufficient to seal the frame except for suitable inlet and exhaust
> vents, then fill with argon and close those vents.
>
> Also, I note that one of Andrew's links mentions the need for a trailing shield to ensure
> the hot metal is protected with argon. I don't see that in the video.
>
> BTW, part of the reason for my question about post-weld stress relief: The first large
> scale welding project I ever did was a 4' x 6' x 1' deep utility trailer that I've mentioned here. All the
> pieces that made up its steel skeleton were accurately cut, clamped, tacked then welded -
> at least, within my abilities as a freshman welder. I held the bottom pieces in place on the shop floor
> with heavy weights as I welded everything in place on top of them. But when I released the
> welded assembly, it was no longer flat. Residual stresses from the welds and surrounding
> metal cooling put a visible twist in the trailer's frame. It wasn't enough to affect function so I
> didn't try to correct it, but it indicates how cooling metal can exert stresses.
>
> - Frank Krygowski
>

Classic closed-figure weld expansion syndrome.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sunday, April 3, 2022 at 3:57:22 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 4/3/2022 5:29 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Sunday, April 3, 2022 at 10:35:05 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On Saturday, April 2, 2022 at 6:01:24 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >>> On 4/2/2022 7:26 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>> On 4/2/2022 10:14 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I have right next to me here a titanium frame that Lemond
> >>>>> tried to build lighter than a good steel frame. Someone
> >>>>> rode it a small collision of some sort and it literally
> >>>>> shattered.
> >>>>
> >>>> Titanium shattered??
> >>>>
> >>>> I'd love to see photos of that damage. Care to post them
> >>>> somewhere and give us a link?
> >>>>
> >>> Failure mode depends on the type of titanium used, wall
> >>> thickness, tube quality, weld quality, design, fixture setup
> >>> and assembly rigor, and the nature and magnitude of the impact.
> >>>
> >>> To be clear I've never seen 'shattered' to include a pile of
> >>> titanium chips in the lane. The dramatic ones are big almost
> >>> longitudinal cracks out from a welded joint.
> >>>
> >>> https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikeforums.net-vbulletin/907x1210/broken_gold_rush_frame_2_sm_47a09d26c67d4d883de3d20a7eca71160011c0b4.jpg
> >>>
> >>> The more common Ti frame failures are cracks perpendicular
> >>> to the weld as we see with thin high-temper modern steel TIG
> >>> frames.
> >>>
> >>> http://i.stack.imgur.com/eGqcB.jpg
> >> I absolutely agree with you. My point was that if you actually try to build a superlight titanium frame it will NOT be strong enough to perform well as a road bike.
> >
> > Litespeed made the Ghisallo model. It was around 850 grams. I knew a woman who rode one very well. I do not know if 6 foot 10 inch 300 pound NFL linemen rode Ghisallo models or not.
> >
> Every manufactured thing has some measurable incidence of
> failure. In modern bicycles the rates are extremely small,
> which is part of why they interest us.
>
> BTW a 66cm frame is normally built with proportionally
> heavier gauge tube.

The Lemond is a 62 and weighs 1,660 grams. Now, I'm not saying that this thing broke on its own - plainly I would say that it ran into a curb or the rear bumper of a car. But isn't the the entire point? If a bike can't take what had to be a rather light blow of what worth is it? I have 3 titanium bikes in the garage and not one of them could EVER be under a KG as Russell seems to suggest. If indeed there were ever a Litespeed 880 grams it would have been a 42 cm frame with 650 wheels. The practice of using the lightest possible weight on the smallest possible frame as indicative of the weight of a bike is pretty silly. Even Trek has stopped doing that and uses normally a 52 or 54 frameset.

On Sunday, April 3, 2022 at 5:56:28 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 4/3/2022 7:24 PM, John B. wrote:
> > On Sun, 3 Apr 2022 11:29:01 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> > <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >
> >> On 4/2/2022 9:01 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> >>> On 4/2/2022 7:26 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>> On 4/2/2022 10:14 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I have right next to me here a titanium frame that Lemond
> >>>>> tried to build lighter than a good steel frame. Someone
> >>>>> rode it a small collision of some sort and it literally
> >>>>> shattered.
> >>>>
> >>>> Titanium shattered??
> >>>>
> >>>> I'd love to see photos of that damage. Care to post them
> >>>> somewhere and give us a link?
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> Failure mode depends on the type of titanium used, wall thickness, tube
> >>> quality, weld quality, design, fixture setup and assembly rigor, and the
> >>> nature and magnitude of the impact.
> >>>
> >>> To be clear I've never seen 'shattered' to include a pile of titanium
> >>> chips in the lane. The dramatic ones are big almost longitudinal cracks
> >>> out from a welded joint.
> >>>
> >>> https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikeforums.net-vbulletin/907x1210/broken_gold_rush_frame_2_sm_47a09d26c67d4d883de3d20a7eca71160011c0b4.jpg
> >>
> >> Interesting. Do you know much about how that failure occurred?
> >>
> >> I'll admit that I don't know much about welding titanium. But those are
> >> pretty massive welds behind the head tube, and to me the crack hints
> >> that the head tube itself was in circumferential tension, with stresses
> >> pulling towards the welds. It makes me wonder if some post-weld stress
> >> relief heat treatment would be worthwhile.
> >>
> >> This video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GFO4uss0VM makes no mention
> >> of any heat treatment. But it also makes no mention of inert gas
> >> shielding, which I'm sure they're using, so I wonder if it's just not
> >> detailed enough. It looks like the frame tubes are plugged, so I suppose
> >> argon or whatever is protecting the inside (back side) of the welds.
> >
> > Well, I can tell you from experience that the weld is being protected
> > by some inert gas while welding. As he seems to be welding without the
> > inert gas filled "welding Chamber" that was used when I 'certified"
> > then they must be flooding the weld area with a much higher then
> > normal gas flow through the torch.
> > .
> > The giveaway statement is his reference to the color of the weld bead.
> > The clear or only faintly yellow color he mentions can only be
> > attained if oxygen is not in contact with the metal while being
> > welded.
> >
> > I would question how are they protecting the back of the weld? I don't
> > see any gas hoses inserted into the frame to purge the back of the
> > weld.
> >
> > Note that a 100% weld is a weld that the entire thickness of the metal
> > being welded is melted and thus protection is needed on both sides of
> > the material.
> >
> > Another note: When I certifying any color at all of the weld bead or
> > parent metal, when welding titanium, was reason to condemn the weld.
> >
> Yes, we agree on those points.
> Generally:
> https://www.thefabricator.com/tubepipejournal/article/arcwelding/tig-for-titanium-tubing
>
> Specifically for bicycle frame construction:
> https://www.weldingtipsandtricks.com/titanium-bike.html

In my experience, the success of a frame is the builder and not the material. The big-name builders of the titanium frames didn't do as good a job as Douglas which was the house brand of Colorado Cyclist. This was the same regardless of material. I have a couple of Douglas's here and both other them are better than most other bikes.

But my Trek Alpha is a great aluminum bike and I would recommend that to anyone.

On Sunday, April 3, 2022 at 6:05:55 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 4/3/2022 7:30 PM, John B. wrote:
> > On Sun, 03 Apr 2022 12:48:29 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >
> >> On 4/3/2022 10:29 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>> On 4/2/2022 9:01 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>> On 4/2/2022 7:26 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>>> On 4/2/2022 10:14 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I have right next to me here a titanium frame that Lemond
> >>>>>> tried to build lighter than a good steel frame. Someone
> >>>>>> rode it a small collision of some sort and it literally
> >>>>>> shattered.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Titanium shattered??
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I'd love to see photos of that damage. Care to post them
> >>>>> somewhere and give us a link?
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Failure mode depends on the type of titanium used, wall
> >>>> thickness, tube quality, weld quality, design, fixture
> >>>> setup and assembly rigor, and the nature and magnitude of
> >>>> the impact.
> >>>>
> >>>> To be clear I've never seen 'shattered' to include a pile
> >>>> of titanium chips in the lane. The dramatic ones are big
> >>>> almost longitudinal cracks out from a welded joint.
> >>>>
> >>>> https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikeforums.net-vbulletin/907x1210/broken_gold_rush_frame_2_sm_47a09d26c67d4d883de3d20a7eca71160011c0b4.jpg
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Interesting. Do you know much about how that failure occurred?
> >>>
> >>> I'll admit that I don't know much about welding titanium.
> >>> But those are pretty massive welds behind the head tube, and
> >>> to me the crack hints that the head tube itself was in
> >>> circumferential tension, with stresses pulling towards the
> >>> welds. It makes me wonder if some post-weld stress relief
> >>> heat treatment would be worthwhile.
> >>>
> >>> This video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GFO4uss0VM makes
> >>> no mention of any heat treatment. But it also makes no
> >>> mention of inert gas shielding, which I'm sure they're
> >>> using, so I wonder if it's just not detailed enough. It
> >>> looks like the frame tubes are plugged, so I suppose argon
> >>> or whatever is protecting the inside (back side) of the welds.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> I don't know the specifics, that's a web image I found
> >> yesterday. But it's typical of the crack form & direction,
> >> although I've seen more Ti cracks at the BB than anywhere else.
> >
> > And a BB usually has two weld beads in close proximity to each other.
> > Thus if it is the welds that are at fault the problem would probably
> > be maximized there.
> >
> Could be.
> IMHO it's because that's the portion of a bicycle most
> flexed and in several planes. Cyclically.

My Lemond failed starting at the lower downtube water bottle screw and broke almost 360 degrees at a 30 degree angle to the tube. There was also a stress riser on the seat tube from the BB up a couple of inches. I suppose that what I'm saying is that despite claims to the opposite, titanium is not a wonder material.

On 4/4/2022 8:31 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 4/3/2022 9:23 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>
>> BTW, part of the reason for my question about post-weld stress relief:
>> The first large
>> scale welding project I ever did was a 4' x 6' x 1' deep utility
>> trailer that I've mentioned here. All the
>> pieces that made up its steel skeleton were accurately cut, clamped,
>> tacked then welded -
>>   at least, within my abilities as a freshman welder. I held the
>> bottom pieces in place on the shop floor
>> with heavy weights as I welded everything in place on top of them. But
>> when I released the
>> welded assembly, it was no longer flat. Residual stresses from the
>> welds and surrounding
>> metal cooling put a visible twist in the trailer's frame. It wasn't
>> enough to affect function so I
>> didn't try to correct it, but it indicates how cooling metal can exert
>> stresses.
>>
>> - Frank Krygowski
>>
>
> Classic closed-figure weld expansion syndrome.

Somewhat related: One manufacturer I sometimes visited made specialized
machinery, for example the huge mobile mowing machines used along some
highways, with long metal arms supporting whirling blades that trim
roadside brush and trees.

The arms were long weldments, probably 20 feet long, maybe a foot
square. They had one old guy on staff who specialized in "flame
straightening." Once the welding was done, the arms were invariably a
bit bent. He had the knowledge and experience with his torch to heat
them in just the right places and to the right degree so they pulled
back into a straight condition.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Monday, April 4, 2022 at 8:45:49 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, April 3, 2022 at 5:56:28 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > On 4/3/2022 7:24 PM, John B. wrote:
> > > On Sun, 3 Apr 2022 11:29:01 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> > > <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > >
> > >> On 4/2/2022 9:01 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> > >>> On 4/2/2022 7:26 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > >>>> On 4/2/2022 10:14 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> I have right next to me here a titanium frame that Lemond
> > >>>>> tried to build lighter than a good steel frame. Someone
> > >>>>> rode it a small collision of some sort and it literally
> > >>>>> shattered.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Titanium shattered??
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I'd love to see photos of that damage. Care to post them
> > >>>> somewhere and give us a link?
> > >>>>
> > >>>
> > >>> Failure mode depends on the type of titanium used, wall thickness, tube
> > >>> quality, weld quality, design, fixture setup and assembly rigor, and the
> > >>> nature and magnitude of the impact.
> > >>>
> > >>> To be clear I've never seen 'shattered' to include a pile of titanium
> > >>> chips in the lane. The dramatic ones are big almost longitudinal cracks
> > >>> out from a welded joint.
> > >>>
> > >>> https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikeforums.net-vbulletin/907x1210/broken_gold_rush_frame_2_sm_47a09d26c67d4d883de3d20a7eca71160011c0b4.jpg
> > >>
> > >> Interesting. Do you know much about how that failure occurred?
> > >>
> > >> I'll admit that I don't know much about welding titanium. But those are
> > >> pretty massive welds behind the head tube, and to me the crack hints
> > >> that the head tube itself was in circumferential tension, with stresses
> > >> pulling towards the welds. It makes me wonder if some post-weld stress
> > >> relief heat treatment would be worthwhile.
> > >>
> > >> This video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GFO4uss0VM makes no mention
> > >> of any heat treatment. But it also makes no mention of inert gas
> > >> shielding, which I'm sure they're using, so I wonder if it's just not
> > >> detailed enough. It looks like the frame tubes are plugged, so I suppose
> > >> argon or whatever is protecting the inside (back side) of the welds.
> > >
> > > Well, I can tell you from experience that the weld is being protected
> > > by some inert gas while welding. As he seems to be welding without the
> > > inert gas filled "welding Chamber" that was used when I 'certified"
> > > then they must be flooding the weld area with a much higher then
> > > normal gas flow through the torch.
> > > .
> > > The giveaway statement is his reference to the color of the weld bead.
> > > The clear or only faintly yellow color he mentions can only be
> > > attained if oxygen is not in contact with the metal while being
> > > welded.
> > >
> > > I would question how are they protecting the back of the weld? I don't
> > > see any gas hoses inserted into the frame to purge the back of the
> > > weld.
> > >
> > > Note that a 100% weld is a weld that the entire thickness of the metal
> > > being welded is melted and thus protection is needed on both sides of
> > > the material.
> > >
> > > Another note: When I certifying any color at all of the weld bead or
> > > parent metal, when welding titanium, was reason to condemn the weld.
> > >
> > Yes, we agree on those points.
> > Generally:
> > https://www.thefabricator.com/tubepipejournal/article/arcwelding/tig-for-titanium-tubing
> >
> > Specifically for bicycle frame construction:
> > https://www.weldingtipsandtricks.com/titanium-bike.html
> In my experience, the success of a frame is the builder and not the material. The big-name builders of the titanium frames didn't do as good a job as Douglas which was the house brand of Colorado Cyclist.

Serotta, Merlin, Litespeed, Lynskey. All big-name titanium frame builders.

This was the same regardless of material. I have a couple of Douglas's here and both other them are better than most other bikes.
>
> But my Trek Alpha is a great aluminum bike and I would recommend that to anyone.

On Monday, April 4, 2022 at 8:38:34 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, April 3, 2022 at 3:57:22 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > On 4/3/2022 5:29 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > On Sunday, April 3, 2022 at 10:35:05 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >> On Saturday, April 2, 2022 at 6:01:24 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > >>> On 4/2/2022 7:26 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > >>>> On 4/2/2022 10:14 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> I have right next to me here a titanium frame that Lemond
> > >>>>> tried to build lighter than a good steel frame. Someone
> > >>>>> rode it a small collision of some sort and it literally
> > >>>>> shattered.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Titanium shattered??
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I'd love to see photos of that damage. Care to post them
> > >>>> somewhere and give us a link?
> > >>>>
> > >>> Failure mode depends on the type of titanium used, wall
> > >>> thickness, tube quality, weld quality, design, fixture setup
> > >>> and assembly rigor, and the nature and magnitude of the impact.
> > >>>
> > >>> To be clear I've never seen 'shattered' to include a pile of
> > >>> titanium chips in the lane. The dramatic ones are big almost
> > >>> longitudinal cracks out from a welded joint.
> > >>>
> > >>> https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikeforums.net-vbulletin/907x1210/broken_gold_rush_frame_2_sm_47a09d26c67d4d883de3d20a7eca71160011c0b4.jpg
> > >>>
> > >>> The more common Ti frame failures are cracks perpendicular
> > >>> to the weld as we see with thin high-temper modern steel TIG
> > >>> frames.
> > >>>
> > >>> http://i.stack.imgur.com/eGqcB.jpg
> > >> I absolutely agree with you. My point was that if you actually try to build a superlight titanium frame it will NOT be strong enough to perform well as a road bike.
> > >
> > > Litespeed made the Ghisallo model. It was around 850 grams. I knew a woman who rode one very well. I do not know if 6 foot 10 inch 300 pound NFL linemen rode Ghisallo models or not.
> > >
> > Every manufactured thing has some measurable incidence of
> > failure. In modern bicycles the rates are extremely small,
> > which is part of why they interest us.
> >
> > BTW a 66cm frame is normally built with proportionally
> > heavier gauge tube.
> The Lemond is a 62 and weighs 1,660 grams. Now, I'm not saying that this thing broke on its own - plainly I would say that it ran into a curb or the rear bumper of a car. But isn't the the entire point? If a bike can't take what had to be a rather light blow of what worth is it? I have 3 titanium bikes in the garage and not one of them could EVER be under a KG as Russell seems to suggest. If indeed there were ever a Litespeed 880 grams it would have been a 42 cm frame with 650 wheels. The practice of using the lightest possible weight on the smallest possible frame as indicative of the weight of a bike is pretty silly. Even Trek has stopped doing that and uses normally a 52 or 54 frameset.

Litespeed Ghisallo.
https://www.active.com/articles/litespeed-ghisallo-compact-bicycle-world-s-lightest-production-frame
900 grams for M/L frame size. 56cm top tube. 73 seat and head angles. 13..5 headtube. 700C wheels. Pretty sure it was raced in the Tour de France by various riders secretively. And a pro team was sponsored by Litespeed back in the 1990s and 2000s so they probably used it for mountain stages too..

Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 8:11:28 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 4/1/2022 8:03 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>> "Starling Cycles founder, Joe McEwan, has released a 36-page
>>> document in which he pleads for consumers’ forgiveness for
>>> having profiteered from numerous fallacies over the course of his
>>> bicycle company’s seven year history of trading. No longer able
>>> to look himself in the mirror, Joe finally admits that steel is
>>> in fact, not real...."
>>>
>>> https://bikerumor.com/starling-cycles-confess-to-profiteering-from-steel-that-is-simply-not-real/

> Steel is real and that has proven itself over more
> centuries than we care to think.

*URGENT* Please donate any "unreal heavy" / "softened" steel frames to
recycling, now! Due to Bidenato's sanctions "on Putin," some
strategically unprepared producers of wooden pallets have reportedly run
out of, formerly 90% Russian supplied, nail steel wire for assembly.

https://uic.org/freight/article/eur-pallet

On 4/6/2022 8:53 AM, Sepp Ruf wrote:
> Tom Kunich wrote:
>> On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 8:11:28 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 4/1/2022 8:03 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>> "Starling Cycles founder, Joe McEwan, has released a
>>>> 36-page
>>>> document in which he pleads for consumers’
>>>> forgiveness for
>>>> having profiteered from numerous fallacies over the
>>>> course of his
>>>> bicycle company’s seven year history of trading.
>>>> No longer able
>>>> to look himself in the mirror, Joe finally admits that
>>>> steel is
>>>> in fact, not real...."
>>>>
>>>> https://bikerumor.com/starling-cycles-confess-to-profiteering-from-steel-that-is-simply-not-real/
>>>>
>
>> Steel is real and that has proven itself over more
>> centuries than we care to think.
>
> *URGENT* Please donate any "unreal heavy" / "softened" steel
> frames to recycling, now! Due to Bidenato's sanctions "on
> Putin," some strategically unprepared producers of wooden
> pallets have reportedly run out of, formerly 90% Russian
> supplied, nail steel wire for assembly.
>
> https://uic.org/freight/article/eur-pallet

We see recycled plastic pallets occasionally now. There's
not much other use for the material (parking lot stops,
landscaping beams)

https://www.icnplast.com/plastic-pallet/export-and-shipping-use-pallet/recycled-plastic-shipping-pallets.html

Which is good I suppose in that most (90%) 'recycled'
plastics just go to landfill.

https://www.thebalancesmb.com/plastic-recycling-facts-and-figures-2877886

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 4/6/2022 10:37 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 4/6/2022 8:53 AM, Sepp Ruf wrote:
>>
>> https://uic.org/freight/article/eur-pallet
>
> We see recycled plastic pallets occasionally now. There's not much other
> use for the material (parking lot stops, landscaping beams)
>
> https://www.icnplast.com/plastic-pallet/export-and-shipping-use-pallet/recycled-plastic-shipping-pallets.html

Seems like a good move.

Related: Yesterday evening we had dinner with a friend, a retired school
teacher. She described taking her multi-month collection of used grocery
bags to a special collection, where they and millions of others will be
used to make park benches. Our friend's school installed such a park
bench to honor her when she retired.

But I wonder about the overall value of that recycling effort. It must
take 10,000 plastic bags to build a park bench. How much energy is
consumed in driving the bags around, then cleaning and processing the
plastic?

And I'm reminded of an apparently unbiased study of a few years ago that
found that a cloth grocery bag was more benign than a plastic bag only
if the cloth bag was re-used at least 1000 times.

> Which is good I suppose in that most (90%) 'recycled' plastics just go
> to landfill.
>
> https://www.thebalancesmb.com/plastic-recycling-facts-and-figures-2877886

Yes. It's been recently noted that the triangle "recycling number"
symbols on plastics are misleading. People think it means the plastics
are "recyclable" but almost none of that stuff gets recycled.

Local story: Our county has curbside recycling, pickup every two weeks.
Over the years, the rules on what is accepted have changed. For a while
(before China bailed out of the business) it was all plastics up to #5.

Well: At the county fair a few years ago, we walked by the recycling
team's booth. A cheery, outgoing woman hailed us and said "Would you
like to play a game? Just take a card [with a picture of a household
item] and put it into either this little recycling bin or this little
garbage can." It was a test to see if we knew what to recycle.

I drew a picture of a black plastic flower pot, the type greenhouses use
for flowers they're selling. I said "This is easy!" and tossed it in the
recycling bin. She said "Nope, those are trash. They don't recycle."

I said "But aren't those marked #5?"

"Oh, we don't take #5 any more. Now we only take #1 and #2. And it has
to be shaped like a bottle or jar - no other shapes."

I said "You've changed the rules? Why aren't you telling people about
that?"

She said "But I am! Right now!" Sure - she's telling one person at a time.

I understand all this is market driven. But I'll note that we are NOT
running out of landfill space.

(Hmm. Why have the hand wringers not attacked the problem of un-recycled
bike helmets?)

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Wed, 6 Apr 2022 11:56:18 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>"Oh, we don't take #5 any more. Now we only take #1 and #2. And it has
>to be shaped like a bottle or jar - no other shapes."

That's the same situation we have here in the People's Republic of
Santa Cruz, CA. The recyclers and collection stations will take #1
and #2, but no other plastics. I was told that #1 and #2 are the best
for burning (chemical recycling):
"Six Times More Plastic Waste is Burned in U.S. than is Recycled"
<https://www.plasticpollutioncoalition.org/blog/2019/4/29/six-times-more-plastic-waste-is-burned-in-us-than-is-recycled>
--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Wed, 6 Apr 2022 11:56:18 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 4/6/2022 10:37 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 4/6/2022 8:53 AM, Sepp Ruf wrote:
>>>
>>> https://uic.org/freight/article/eur-pallet
>>
>> We see recycled plastic pallets occasionally now. There's not much other
>> use for the material (parking lot stops, landscaping beams)
>>
>> https://www.icnplast.com/plastic-pallet/export-and-shipping-use-pallet/recycled-plastic-shipping-pallets.html
>
>Seems like a good move.
>
>Related: Yesterday evening we had dinner with a friend, a retired school
>teacher. She described taking her multi-month collection of used grocery
>bags to a special collection, where they and millions of others will be
>used to make park benches. Our friend's school installed such a park
>bench to honor her when she retired.
>
>But I wonder about the overall value of that recycling effort. It must
>take 10,000 plastic bags to build a park bench. How much energy is
>consumed in driving the bags around, then cleaning and processing the
>plastic?
>
>And I'm reminded of an apparently unbiased study of a few years ago that
>found that a cloth grocery bag was more benign than a plastic bag only
>if the cloth bag was re-used at least 1000 times.
>
>> Which is good I suppose in that most (90%) 'recycled' plastics just go
>> to landfill.
>>
>> https://www.thebalancesmb.com/plastic-recycling-facts-and-figures-2877886
>
>Yes. It's been recently noted that the triangle "recycling number"
>symbols on plastics are misleading. People think it means the plastics
>are "recyclable" but almost none of that stuff gets recycled.
>
>Local story: Our county has curbside recycling, pickup every two weeks.
>Over the years, the rules on what is accepted have changed. For a while
>(before China bailed out of the business) it was all plastics up to #5.
>
>Well: At the county fair a few years ago, we walked by the recycling
>team's booth. A cheery, outgoing woman hailed us and said "Would you
>like to play a game? Just take a card [with a picture of a household
>item] and put it into either this little recycling bin or this little
>garbage can." It was a test to see if we knew what to recycle.
>
>I drew a picture of a black plastic flower pot, the type greenhouses use
>for flowers they're selling. I said "This is easy!" and tossed it in the
>recycling bin. She said "Nope, those are trash. They don't recycle."
>
>I said "But aren't those marked #5?"
>
>"Oh, we don't take #5 any more. Now we only take #1 and #2. And it has
>to be shaped like a bottle or jar - no other shapes."
>
>I said "You've changed the rules? Why aren't you telling people about
>that?"
>
>She said "But I am! Right now!" Sure - she's telling one person at a time.
>
>I understand all this is market driven. But I'll note that we are NOT
>running out of landfill space.
>
>(Hmm. Why have the hand wringers not attacked the problem of un-recycled
>bike helmets?)

They apparently recycle some plastics here in Thailand. At least I see
people picking plastic drink bottles out of the trash apparently for
resale. And years ago I saw a large truck loaded "to the brim" with
the thicker colored plastic bottles used for engine oil and other
similar stuff. We were visiting one of my wife's younger brothers and
I mentioned it and he said that there was a recycling plant where we
had seen the truck turn off the highway.

I also see those large "industrial" size garbage bags, in the store,
marked "100% recycled".

P.S. I just googled "Thailand+Recycled+plastic" and got 9,010,000 hits
including a number of companies who's business is recycling.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wednesday, April 6, 2022 at 6:54:02 AM UTC-7, Sepp Ruf wrote:
> Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 8:11:28 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 4/1/2022 8:03 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >>> "Starling Cycles founder, Joe McEwan, has released a 36-page
> >>> document in which he pleads for consumers’ forgiveness for
> >>> having profiteered from numerous fallacies over the course of his
> >>> bicycle company’s seven year history of trading. No longer able
> >>> to look himself in the mirror, Joe finally admits that steel is
> >>> in fact, not real...."
> >>>
> >>> https://bikerumor.com/starling-cycles-confess-to-profiteering-from-steel-that-is-simply-not-real/
> > Steel is real and that has proven itself over more
> > centuries than we care to think.
>
> *URGENT* Please donate any "unreal heavy" / "softened" steel frames to
> recycling, now! Due to Bidenato's sanctions "on Putin," some
> strategically unprepared producers of wooden pallets have reportedly run
> out of, formerly 90% Russian supplied, nail steel wire for assembly.
>
> https://uic.org/freight/article/eur-pallet
The European Union is falling apart because their "leaders" believe that the government should have full control over every facet of a person's lives. Great Britain is likely to have a sudden political awakening and through the socialist government into the dust bin of history. What started with socialized health care has become government regulated everything down to and including what a farmer can sell and where he can sell it.