On Mon, 25 Apr 2022 08:02:58 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 4/24/2022 10:05 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Sun, 24 Apr 2022 18:45:00 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 25 Apr 2022 05:56:39 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> (chomp)
>>>> But Tommy... Japan was not bombed into the stone age. In fact with the
>>>> exception of fire bombing in Tokyo and the two "atom" bombs there was
>>>> little bombing done in the rest of the country.
>>>>
>>>> And, I do know as I was there.
>>>
>>> I beg to differ somewhat.
>>>
>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_raids_on_Japan>
>>> "Much of Japan's industrial capacity was also destroyed by Allied
>>> bombing. Over 600 major industrial facilities were destroyed or badly
>>> damaged, contributing to a large decline in production."
>>>
>>> There were also raids on the coastal naval bases and some of the major
>>> cities:
>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_raids_on_Japan#/media/File:Areas_of_principal_Japanese_cities_destoyed_by_US_bombing.jpg>
>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_raids_on_Japan#/media/File:Allied_naval_operations_off_Japan_during_July_and_August_1945_(edit_1).svg>
>>>
>>> The target committee had a difficult time finding worthwhile targets
>>> for the atom bombs because most of the worthwhile (military) targets
>>> had already been destroyed. The sole exception was Kyoto:
>>> "Why was Kyoto removed as the prime target for the A-Bomb?"
>>> <https://www.vaguelyinteresting.co.uk/why-was-kyoto-removed-as-the-prime-target-for-the-a-bomb/>
>>> Kyoto was the first choice for bombing, but was saved by Henry L.
>>> Stimson. The other cities were thoroughly bombed.
>>>
>>> I couldn't find anything on whether the US bombed the smaller towns
>>> and fields. When Japan decentralized production to small home
>>> workshops, they might have considered bombing. My guess(tm) is they
>>> didn't. Bombing isn't very effect against low density targets.
>>
>> Well, I can tell you, for sure, that when I went to Japan, 1954 there
>> was, in the Kanto area (Tokyo, etc.) no evidence whatsoever of any
>> bomb damage.
>>
>> As for industrial damage, Tachakawa Air Base which the Wiki states
>> "was rendered unserviceable by the bombing raids, along with most of
>> the structures and support facilities of the airfield by the time the
>> first United States Army forces moved in on 5 September 1945", seemed
>> to be in perfect condition and structures such as a large Wind Tunnel,
>> never used by the U.S. appeared to be undamaged.
>>
>> Granted that I arrived in the country 9 years after the war ended but
>> still, no evidence at all? And in many cases what certainly appeared
>> to be the original Japanese structures were still in use. When I
>> first was assigned to Yokota AFB I lived in a long, wooden, barracks
>> said, by the Japanese "House Boys" to have been used by the Japanese
>> A.F.
>>
>> I was told, by Japanese, about the fire bombing of residential
>> districts of Tokyo, which I might add the Japanese seemed to think was
>> a rather strange thing to do as, they commented, you can build a new
>> house in a few days.
>>
>
>You saw scant evidence because by 1954 the burnt wood/paper
>structures had been cleared and rebuilt.
>

Well there is that. But my comments about Tachakawa Air Base
structures they were never used by the U.S. and thus must date to at
least the "war days" being undamaged still stands.

As an aside, I once watched a typical Japanese house being built on a
lot on the road, in Japan, I traveled over to get from the house to
the air base. From bare lot to living in it - two weeks (:-)

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 1:10:30 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Thursday, April 21, 2022 at 8:21:33 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."
> >
> > I'm sure there are countless engineers who would be surprised to read
> > that blanket statement. They might ask "_Which_ stainless steel? How
> > brittle, under what conditions? What sort of stresses qualify as
> > 'high-strength'? What sort of applications?"
> >
> > https://www.renehersecycles.com/just-a-bunch-of-bolts/
> >
> > Jan Heine has some good idea, but IMO he often goes off into the weeds.
> >
> > I can't remember the last time I broke a stainless steel fastener on a
> > bike. It may have never happened.
> >
> >
> > --
> > - Frank Krygowski
> Pff... as if the bolts on a bicycle are in the high end application category.
> I read the article and what I came up with is 'what a snob...' YMMV.

Steel is iron with carbon in it. It was originated simply by smelting iron in coal fired ovens. Crying about chromium or molybdenum added to the mixture make pretty minor improvements. (for instance; adding chromium doesn't improve the strength but the hardness or rigidity of the material. Stainless is largely iron with a larger percentage of other materials such as aluminum, nickel, vanadium etc. Stainless is a material you HAVE to know how to work. Overheating and quenching like you would some steels causes it to crystalize and become brittle. You can see this has occurred in the manufacture of screws in particular since they turn these things out so rapidly that they can overheat the material and then it can be quenched coming off of the tool because they are in an oil bath, Then when you tighten the bolt it simply breaks. Its been far too long since I dealt with this but I seem to remember that you can heat it up to something like a thousand degrees F and let it stay there for some time and then allow it to air cool and it forms a different sort of austenitic structure more like steel and so it is much stronger.

On Mon, 25 Apr 2022 16:53:30 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 1:10:30 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> On Thursday, April 21, 2022 at 8:21:33 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> > "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."
>> >
>> > I'm sure there are countless engineers who would be surprised to read
>> > that blanket statement. They might ask "_Which_ stainless steel? How
>> > brittle, under what conditions? What sort of stresses qualify as
>> > 'high-strength'? What sort of applications?"
>> >
>> > https://www.renehersecycles.com/just-a-bunch-of-bolts/
>> >
>> > Jan Heine has some good idea, but IMO he often goes off into the weeds.
>> >
>> > I can't remember the last time I broke a stainless steel fastener on a
>> > bike. It may have never happened.
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > - Frank Krygowski
>> Pff... as if the bolts on a bicycle are in the high end application category.
>> I read the article and what I came up with is 'what a snob...' YMMV.
>
>Steel is iron with carbon in it. It was originated simply by smelting iron in coal fired ovens. Crying about chromium or molybdenum added to the mixture make pretty minor improvements. (for instance; adding chromium doesn't improve the strength but the hardness or rigidity of the material. Stainless is largely iron with a larger percentage of other materials such as aluminum, nickel, vanadium etc. Stainless is a material you HAVE to know how to work. Overheating and quenching like you would some steels causes it to crystalize and become brittle. You can see this has occurred in the manufacture of screws in particular since they turn these things out so rapidly that they can overheat the material and then it can be quenched coming off of the tool because they are in an oil bath, Then when you tighten the bolt it simply breaks. Its been far too long since I dealt with this but I seem to remember that you can heat it up to something like a thousand degrees F and let it stay there for
>some time and then allow it to air cool and it forms a different sort of austenitic structure more like steel and so it is much stronger.

https://www.theworldmaterial.com/aisi-316-ss316-stainless-steel-properties-composition/#Hardening
"Type 316 SS cannot be hardened by heat treating"
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 4/25/2022 7:36 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Mon, 25 Apr 2022 16:53:30 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 1:10:30 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>> On Thursday, April 21, 2022 at 8:21:33 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."
>>>>
>>>> I'm sure there are countless engineers who would be surprised to read
>>>> that blanket statement. They might ask "_Which_ stainless steel? How
>>>> brittle, under what conditions? What sort of stresses qualify as
>>>> 'high-strength'? What sort of applications?"
>>>>
>>>> https://www.renehersecycles.com/just-a-bunch-of-bolts/
>>>>
>>>> Jan Heine has some good idea, but IMO he often goes off into the weeds.
>>>>
>>>> I can't remember the last time I broke a stainless steel fastener on a
>>>> bike. It may have never happened.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>> Pff... as if the bolts on a bicycle are in the high end application category.
>>> I read the article and what I came up with is 'what a snob...' YMMV.
>>
>> Steel is iron with carbon in it. It was originated simply by smelting iron in coal fired ovens. Crying about chromium or molybdenum added to the mixture make pretty minor improvements. (for instance; adding chromium doesn't improve the strength but the hardness or rigidity of the material. Stainless is largely iron with a larger percentage of other materials such as aluminum, nickel, vanadium etc. Stainless is a material you HAVE to know how to work. Overheating and quenching like you would some steels causes it to crystalize and become brittle. You can see this has occurred in the manufacture of screws in particular since they turn these things out so rapidly that they can overheat the material and then it can be quenched coming off of the tool because they are in an oil bath, Then when you tighten the bolt it simply breaks. Its been far too long since I dealt with this but I seem to remember that you can heat it up to something like a thousand degrees F and let it stay there f
or
>> some time and then allow it to air cool and it forms a different sort of austenitic structure more like steel and so it is much stronger.
>
> https://www.theworldmaterial.com/aisi-316-ss316-stainless-steel-properties-composition/#Hardening
> "Type 316 SS cannot be hardened by heat treating"
>

OK, fine.
But any claim about 'stainless' generally is pointless- it's
a big group of wildly different materials. Some examples:

https://www.mori2a.com/en/dont-stop/news/prodottiproducts/stainless-steel-200-series-in-cr-mn-a-safe-alternative-to-304/

https://www.searchsteel.info/2011/03/stainless-technical-standards-and.html

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 7:58:39 AM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> On 4/24/2022 8:45 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> > On Mon, 25 Apr 2022 05:56:39 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > (chomp)
> >> But Tommy... Japan was not bombed into the stone age. In fact with the
> >> exception of fire bombing in Tokyo and the two "atom" bombs there was
> >> little bombing done in the rest of the country.
> >>
> >> And, I do know as I was there.
> >
> > I beg to differ somewhat.
> >
> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_raids_on_Japan>
> > "Much of Japan's industrial capacity was also destroyed by Allied
> > bombing. Over 600 major industrial facilities were destroyed or badly
> > damaged, contributing to a large decline in production."
> >
> > There were also raids on the coastal naval bases and some of the major
> > cities:
> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_raids_on_Japan#/media/File:Areas_of_principal_Japanese_cities_destoyed_by_US_bombing.jpg>
> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_raids_on_Japan#/media/File:Allied_naval_operations_off_Japan_during_July_and_August_1945_(edit_1).svg>
> >
> > The target committee had a difficult time finding worthwhile targets
> > for the atom bombs because most of the worthwhile (military) targets
> > had already been destroyed. The sole exception was Kyoto:
> > "Why was Kyoto removed as the prime target for the A-Bomb?"
> > <https://www.vaguelyinteresting.co.uk/why-was-kyoto-removed-as-the-prime-target-for-the-a-bomb/>
> > Kyoto was the first choice for bombing, but was saved by Henry L.
> > Stimson. The other cities were thoroughly bombed.
> >
> > I couldn't find anything on whether the US bombed the smaller towns
> > and fields. When Japan decentralized production to small home
> > workshops, they might have considered bombing. My guess(tm) is they
> > didn't. Bombing isn't very effect against low density targets.
> >
> +1
>
> After weeks of firebombing, Curtis LeMay complained in July
> 1945 there were not enough targets for his Army Air Corps.
>
> "Official estimates from the United States Strategic Bombing
> Survey determined at least 330,000 killed, 476,000 injured,
> 8.5 million people made homeless, and 2.5 million buildings
> destroyed. Almost half of 64 Japanese mainland cities were
> completely destroyed. The destruction was not lost on LeMay.
> He acknowledged that if the Japanese had won the war, he
> would have been tried as a war criminal.
>
> Later he would reveal that dropping the atomic bombs was
> totally unnecessary, given the level of destruction he had
> already waged on Japan. He said he only dropped them because
> of President Truman’s authority. After the war, Japan’s
> former Prime Minister Fumimaro Konoe confirmed that the
> decision to surrender was based on the prolonged bombing
> wrought by General LeMay’s Marianas-based air forces. "
>
> https://www.wearethemighty.com/mighty-history/7-awesome-airpower-quotes-general-curtis-lemay/
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Knives can kill people. One way is to cut a person multiple times all over their body and they will eventually lose enough blood to die. And suffer enormous pain from all the cuts. Other way a knife can kill someone is if you plunge it directly into a person's heart. Dead in 10 seconds or so.

Did LeMay explain why he did not completely destroy the other half of the 64 mainland Japanese cities? Did he not have enough airplanes or bombs? Was he planning to start completely destroying them in mid August 1945? So that by December 1945 all 64 mainland Japanese cities would all be completely destroyed.

On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 3:10:30 PM UTC-5, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, April 21, 2022 at 8:21:33 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."
> >
> > I'm sure there are countless engineers who would be surprised to read
> > that blanket statement. They might ask "_Which_ stainless steel? How
> > brittle, under what conditions? What sort of stresses qualify as
> > 'high-strength'? What sort of applications?"
> >
> > https://www.renehersecycles.com/just-a-bunch-of-bolts/
> >
> > Jan Heine has some good idea, but IMO he often goes off into the weeds.
> >
> > I can't remember the last time I broke a stainless steel fastener on a
> > bike. It may have never happened.
> >
> >
> > --
> > - Frank Krygowski
> Pff... as if the bolts on a bicycle are in the high end application category.
> I read the article and what I came up with is 'what a snob...' YMMV.
>
> Lou

I have heard about people snapping stem bolts. At least the titanium bolts.. Maybe not the steel bolts. So stem bolts might fall into the high stress application category. I've always thought of stainless steel bolts as being pretty strong. Other than maybe rounding out the Phillips head or Allen head on top, never worried much about bolts. I have broken a few drywall screws with both hand screwdrivers and battery drills. But drywall screws are notoriously fragile.

On 4/25/2022 8:30 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 7:58:39 AM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 4/24/2022 8:45 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>> On Mon, 25 Apr 2022 05:56:39 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> (chomp)
>>>> But Tommy... Japan was not bombed into the stone age. In fact with the
>>>> exception of fire bombing in Tokyo and the two "atom" bombs there was
>>>> little bombing done in the rest of the country.
>>>>
>>>> And, I do know as I was there.
>>>
>>> I beg to differ somewhat.
>>>
>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_raids_on_Japan>
>>> "Much of Japan's industrial capacity was also destroyed by Allied
>>> bombing. Over 600 major industrial facilities were destroyed or badly
>>> damaged, contributing to a large decline in production."
>>>
>>> There were also raids on the coastal naval bases and some of the major
>>> cities:
>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_raids_on_Japan#/media/File:Areas_of_principal_Japanese_cities_destoyed_by_US_bombing.jpg>
>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_raids_on_Japan#/media/File:Allied_naval_operations_off_Japan_during_July_and_August_1945_(edit_1).svg>
>>>
>>> The target committee had a difficult time finding worthwhile targets
>>> for the atom bombs because most of the worthwhile (military) targets
>>> had already been destroyed. The sole exception was Kyoto:
>>> "Why was Kyoto removed as the prime target for the A-Bomb?"
>>> <https://www.vaguelyinteresting.co.uk/why-was-kyoto-removed-as-the-prime-target-for-the-a-bomb/>
>>> Kyoto was the first choice for bombing, but was saved by Henry L.
>>> Stimson. The other cities were thoroughly bombed.
>>>
>>> I couldn't find anything on whether the US bombed the smaller towns
>>> and fields. When Japan decentralized production to small home
>>> workshops, they might have considered bombing. My guess(tm) is they
>>> didn't. Bombing isn't very effect against low density targets.
>>>
>> +1
>>
>> After weeks of firebombing, Curtis LeMay complained in July
>> 1945 there were not enough targets for his Army Air Corps.
>>
>> "Official estimates from the United States Strategic Bombing
>> Survey determined at least 330,000 killed, 476,000 injured,
>> 8.5 million people made homeless, and 2.5 million buildings
>> destroyed. Almost half of 64 Japanese mainland cities were
>> completely destroyed. The destruction was not lost on LeMay.
>> He acknowledged that if the Japanese had won the war, he
>> would have been tried as a war criminal.
>>
>> Later he would reveal that dropping the atomic bombs was
>> totally unnecessary, given the level of destruction he had
>> already waged on Japan. He said he only dropped them because
>> of President Truman’s authority. After the war, Japan’s
>> former Prime Minister Fumimaro Konoe confirmed that the
>> decision to surrender was based on the prolonged bombing
>> wrought by General LeMay’s Marianas-based air forces. "
>>
>> https://www.wearethemighty.com/mighty-history/7-awesome-airpower-quotes-general-curtis-lemay/
>> --
>> Andrew Muzi
>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>
> Knives can kill people. One way is to cut a person multiple times all over their body and they will eventually lose enough blood to die. And suffer enormous pain from all the cuts. Other way a knife can kill someone is if you plunge it directly into a person's heart. Dead in 10 seconds or so.
>
> Did LeMay explain why he did not completely destroy the other half of the 64 mainland Japanese cities? Did he not have enough airplanes or bombs? Was he planning to start completely destroying them in mid August 1945? So that by December 1945 all 64 mainland Japanese cities would all be completely destroyed.
>

You are not innumerate. The phrasing in the quoted link may
be inartful but of 64 major cities, half were utterly
destroyed. The other 32 were drastically damaged and reduced.

p.s. There were administration/general staff limits on
bombing certain cities and areas such as all of Kyoto and
the Imperial Palace district in Tokyo. There may well have
been others of which I am unaware.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 6:19:01 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> On Mon, 25 Apr 2022 07:47:10 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 5:58:39 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 4/24/2022 8:45 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> >> > On Mon, 25 Apr 2022 05:56:39 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> > (chomp)
> >> >> But Tommy... Japan was not bombed into the stone age. In fact with the
> >> >> exception of fire bombing in Tokyo and the two "atom" bombs there was
> >> >> little bombing done in the rest of the country.
> >> >>
> >> >> And, I do know as I was there.
> >> >
> >> > I beg to differ somewhat.
> >> >
> >> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_raids_on_Japan>
> >> > "Much of Japan's industrial capacity was also destroyed by Allied
> >> > bombing. Over 600 major industrial facilities were destroyed or badly
> >> > damaged, contributing to a large decline in production."
> >> >
> >> > There were also raids on the coastal naval bases and some of the major
> >> > cities:
> >> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_raids_on_Japan#/media/File:Areas_of_principal_Japanese_cities_destoyed_by_US_bombing.jpg>
> >> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_raids_on_Japan#/media/File:Allied_naval_operations_off_Japan_during_July_and_August_1945_(edit_1).svg>
> >> >
> >> > The target committee had a difficult time finding worthwhile targets
> >> > for the atom bombs because most of the worthwhile (military) targets
> >> > had already been destroyed. The sole exception was Kyoto:
> >> > "Why was Kyoto removed as the prime target for the A-Bomb?"
> >> > <https://www.vaguelyinteresting.co.uk/why-was-kyoto-removed-as-the-prime-target-for-the-a-bomb/>
> >> > Kyoto was the first choice for bombing, but was saved by Henry L.
> >> > Stimson. The other cities were thoroughly bombed.
> >> >
> >> > I couldn't find anything on whether the US bombed the smaller towns
> >> > and fields. When Japan decentralized production to small home
> >> > workshops, they might have considered bombing. My guess(tm) is they
> >> > didn't. Bombing isn't very effect against low density targets.
> >> >
> >> +1
> >>
> >> After weeks of firebombing, Curtis LeMay complained in July
> >> 1945 there were not enough targets for his Army Air Corps.
> >>
> >> "Official estimates from the United States Strategic Bombing
> >> Survey determined at least 330,000 killed, 476,000 injured,
> >> 8.5 million people made homeless, and 2.5 million buildings
> >> destroyed. Almost half of 64 Japanese mainland cities were
> >> completely destroyed. The destruction was not lost on LeMay.
> >> He acknowledged that if the Japanese had won the war, he
> >> would have been tried as a war criminal.
> >>
> >> Later he would reveal that dropping the atomic bombs was
> >> totally unnecessary, given the level of destruction he had
> >> already waged on Japan. He said he only dropped them because
> >> of President Truman’s authority. After the war, Japan’s
> >> former Prime Minister Fumimaro Konoe confirmed that the
> >> decision to surrender was based on the prolonged bombing
> >> wrought by General LeMay’s Marianas-based air forces. "
> >>
> >> https://www.wearethemighty.com/mighty-history/7-awesome-airpower-quotes-general-curtis-lemay/
> >
> >I find it absolutely amazing that John has to make such a fool out of himself. He claims to have been to Japan and yet seems to have absolutely no idea of how the Japanese lived. To say that he was there 10 years AFTER the war and after the US dumped in what would be $21 Billion in today's dollars to rebuild Japan after the war, is purely ignorant right on the surface. Then considering that it wasn't until the 80's or so before Japan was even allowed to have self defense forces so that virtually every penny they had could go into the reconstruction of their own country shows a level of stupidity that even Google can't help.
> Well Tommy, I was there, I spent 8 years there, I learned to speak
> sufficient Japanese to get by with and I even married a Japanese Girl
> so I do know something about Japan. Certain far more then you do.
>

But John, unlike Tommy boy, you did not learn about Japan from Fox News or Tucker Ivy League Carlson or Laura Ingraham. Authentic Fox spokes persons. Living in Japan for 8 years? Marrying a Japanese woman? Interacting with and seeing Japanese people for 8 years? How on earth are you going to learn about Japan that way? Tommy boy took a plane ride on an Air Force plane from some island in the middle of the Pacific Ocean and flew within a few thousand miles of Japan. That is the only way to learn about Japan.

> For example, your statement "it wasn't until the 80's or so before
> Japan was even allowed to have self defense forces".
>
> The Japanese "Self Defense Forces - the Japan Ground Self-Defense
> Force, the Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force, and the Japan Air
> Self-Defense Force - was formed in 1954.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Self-Defense_Forces#History
>
> You really are stupid, aren't you.
> --
> Cheers,
>
> John B.

On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 6:26:05 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> On Mon, 25 Apr 2022 08:02:58 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
> >On 4/24/2022 10:05 PM, John B. wrote:
> >> On Sun, 24 Apr 2022 18:45:00 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Mon, 25 Apr 2022 05:56:39 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> (chomp)
> >>>> But Tommy... Japan was not bombed into the stone age. In fact with the
> >>>> exception of fire bombing in Tokyo and the two "atom" bombs there was
> >>>> little bombing done in the rest of the country.
> >>>>
> >>>> And, I do know as I was there.
> >>>
> >>> I beg to differ somewhat.
> >>>
> >>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_raids_on_Japan>
> >>> "Much of Japan's industrial capacity was also destroyed by Allied
> >>> bombing. Over 600 major industrial facilities were destroyed or badly
> >>> damaged, contributing to a large decline in production."
> >>>
> >>> There were also raids on the coastal naval bases and some of the major
> >>> cities:
> >>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_raids_on_Japan#/media/File:Areas_of_principal_Japanese_cities_destoyed_by_US_bombing.jpg>
> >>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_raids_on_Japan#/media/File:Allied_naval_operations_off_Japan_during_July_and_August_1945_(edit_1).svg>
> >>>
> >>> The target committee had a difficult time finding worthwhile targets
> >>> for the atom bombs because most of the worthwhile (military) targets
> >>> had already been destroyed. The sole exception was Kyoto:
> >>> "Why was Kyoto removed as the prime target for the A-Bomb?"
> >>> <https://www.vaguelyinteresting.co.uk/why-was-kyoto-removed-as-the-prime-target-for-the-a-bomb/>
> >>> Kyoto was the first choice for bombing, but was saved by Henry L.
> >>> Stimson. The other cities were thoroughly bombed.
> >>>
> >>> I couldn't find anything on whether the US bombed the smaller towns
> >>> and fields. When Japan decentralized production to small home
> >>> workshops, they might have considered bombing. My guess(tm) is they
> >>> didn't. Bombing isn't very effect against low density targets.
> >>
> >> Well, I can tell you, for sure, that when I went to Japan, 1954 there
> >> was, in the Kanto area (Tokyo, etc.) no evidence whatsoever of any
> >> bomb damage.
> >>
> >> As for industrial damage, Tachakawa Air Base which the Wiki states
> >> "was rendered unserviceable by the bombing raids, along with most of
> >> the structures and support facilities of the airfield by the time the
> >> first United States Army forces moved in on 5 September 1945", seemed
> >> to be in perfect condition and structures such as a large Wind Tunnel,
> >> never used by the U.S. appeared to be undamaged.
> >>
> >> Granted that I arrived in the country 9 years after the war ended but
> >> still, no evidence at all? And in many cases what certainly appeared
> >> to be the original Japanese structures were still in use. When I
> >> first was assigned to Yokota AFB I lived in a long, wooden, barracks
> >> said, by the Japanese "House Boys" to have been used by the Japanese
> >> A.F.
> >>
> >> I was told, by Japanese, about the fire bombing of residential
> >> districts of Tokyo, which I might add the Japanese seemed to think was
> >> a rather strange thing to do as, they commented, you can build a new
> >> house in a few days.
> >>
> >
> >You saw scant evidence because by 1954 the burnt wood/paper
> >structures had been cleared and rebuilt.
> >
> Well there is that. But my comments about Tachakawa Air Base
> structures they were never used by the U.S. and thus must date to at
> least the "war days" being undamaged still stands.
>
> As an aside, I once watched a typical Japanese house being built on a
> lot on the road, in Japan, I traveled over to get from the house to
> the air base. From bare lot to living in it - two weeks (:-)
>
> --
> Cheers,
>
> John B.

Did the new house have electricity, running water, and a sewage system? And a heating system more complicated than a wood burning fireplace? In the 1950s in the USA, almost all houses had those basics. Old or new.

On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 8:41:57 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> On 4/25/2022 8:30 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 7:58:39 AM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 4/24/2022 8:45 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> >>> On Mon, 25 Apr 2022 05:56:39 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> (chomp)
> >>>> But Tommy... Japan was not bombed into the stone age. In fact with the
> >>>> exception of fire bombing in Tokyo and the two "atom" bombs there was
> >>>> little bombing done in the rest of the country.
> >>>>
> >>>> And, I do know as I was there.
> >>>
> >>> I beg to differ somewhat.
> >>>
> >>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_raids_on_Japan>
> >>> "Much of Japan's industrial capacity was also destroyed by Allied
> >>> bombing. Over 600 major industrial facilities were destroyed or badly
> >>> damaged, contributing to a large decline in production."
> >>>
> >>> There were also raids on the coastal naval bases and some of the major
> >>> cities:
> >>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_raids_on_Japan#/media/File:Areas_of_principal_Japanese_cities_destoyed_by_US_bombing.jpg>
> >>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_raids_on_Japan#/media/File:Allied_naval_operations_off_Japan_during_July_and_August_1945_(edit_1).svg>
> >>>
> >>> The target committee had a difficult time finding worthwhile targets
> >>> for the atom bombs because most of the worthwhile (military) targets
> >>> had already been destroyed. The sole exception was Kyoto:
> >>> "Why was Kyoto removed as the prime target for the A-Bomb?"
> >>> <https://www.vaguelyinteresting.co.uk/why-was-kyoto-removed-as-the-prime-target-for-the-a-bomb/>
> >>> Kyoto was the first choice for bombing, but was saved by Henry L.
> >>> Stimson. The other cities were thoroughly bombed.
> >>>
> >>> I couldn't find anything on whether the US bombed the smaller towns
> >>> and fields. When Japan decentralized production to small home
> >>> workshops, they might have considered bombing. My guess(tm) is they
> >>> didn't. Bombing isn't very effect against low density targets.
> >>>
> >> +1
> >>
> >> After weeks of firebombing, Curtis LeMay complained in July
> >> 1945 there were not enough targets for his Army Air Corps.
> >>
> >> "Official estimates from the United States Strategic Bombing
> >> Survey determined at least 330,000 killed, 476,000 injured,
> >> 8.5 million people made homeless, and 2.5 million buildings
> >> destroyed. Almost half of 64 Japanese mainland cities were
> >> completely destroyed. The destruction was not lost on LeMay.
> >> He acknowledged that if the Japanese had won the war, he
> >> would have been tried as a war criminal.
> >>
> >> Later he would reveal that dropping the atomic bombs was
> >> totally unnecessary, given the level of destruction he had
> >> already waged on Japan. He said he only dropped them because
> >> of President Truman’s authority. After the war, Japan’s
> >> former Prime Minister Fumimaro Konoe confirmed that the
> >> decision to surrender was based on the prolonged bombing
> >> wrought by General LeMay’s Marianas-based air forces. "
> >>
> >> https://www.wearethemighty.com/mighty-history/7-awesome-airpower-quotes-general-curtis-lemay/
> >> --
> >> Andrew Muzi
> >> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> >> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> >
> > Knives can kill people. One way is to cut a person multiple times all over their body and they will eventually lose enough blood to die. And suffer enormous pain from all the cuts. Other way a knife can kill someone is if you plunge it directly into a person's heart. Dead in 10 seconds or so.
> >
> > Did LeMay explain why he did not completely destroy the other half of the 64 mainland Japanese cities? Did he not have enough airplanes or bombs? Was he planning to start completely destroying them in mid August 1945? So that by December 1945 all 64 mainland Japanese cities would all be completely destroyed.
> >
> You are not innumerate. The phrasing in the quoted link may
> be inartful but of 64 major cities, half were utterly
> destroyed. The other 32 were drastically damaged and reduced.

From what I have read of history, Hiroshima and Nagasaki were fairly "virgin" cities. Until being annihilated by Little Boy and Fat Man.

>
> p.s. There were administration/general staff limits on
> bombing certain cities and areas such as all of Kyoto and
> the Imperial Palace district in Tokyo. There may well have
> been others of which I am unaware.
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Mon, 25 Apr 2022 16:53:30 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>Steel is iron with carbon in it. It was originated simply by smelting iron in coal fired ovens. Crying about chromium or molybdenum added to the mixture make pretty minor improvements. (for instance; adding chromium doesn't improve the strength but the hardness or rigidity of the material. Stainless is largely iron with a larger percentage of other materials such as aluminum, nickel, vanadium etc. Stainless is a material you HAVE to know how to work. Overheating and quenching like you would some steels causes it to crystalize and become brittle. You can see this has occurred in the manufacture of screws in particular since they turn these things out so rapidly that they can overheat the material and then it can be quenched coming off of the tool because they are in an oil bath, Then when you tighten the bolt it simply breaks. Its been far too long since I dealt with this but I seem to remember that you can heat it up to something like a thousand degrees F and let it stay there for
>some time and then allow it to air cool and it forms a different sort of austenitic structure more like steel and so it is much stronger.

You make the process sound complexicated. Actually, making fasteners
is quite simple. Anyone can do it:
"Incredible Manufacturing Process of Hexagon Bolt & Nut in Factory ||
How It's Made Nuts and bolts"
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9lDSp5bQE0>
The nuts and bolts in the video are rather large for bicycle use, but
the process can be similar.

More of the same type of videos. I've been randomly watching these
videos for a few weeks and find them fascinating. I believe that
they're all from Pakistan, but I'm not certain. Note the lack of
tools, machines, tables, safety gear, lubricants, cleaning facilities,
etc. Tom, you should watch a few of these videos. Perhaps you might
learn the basics.

The Mechanic
<https://www.youtube.com/c/TheMechanic868/videos>

Wow Things
<https://www.youtube.com/c/WowThings/videos>

Amazing Things Official
<https://www.youtube.com/c/AmazingThingsOfficial/videos>

LOGIC CREATIONS
<https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCswHoV3iQpGNWCD9FznM56w/videos>

The Skills
<https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHaM3-02WivgB7mvgGNtwhQ/videos>

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Mon, 25 Apr 2022 18:37:23 -0700 (PDT), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 3:10:30 PM UTC-5, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Thursday, April 21, 2022 at 8:21:33 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> > "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."
>> >
>> > I'm sure there are countless engineers who would be surprised to read
>> > that blanket statement. They might ask "_Which_ stainless steel? How
>> > brittle, under what conditions? What sort of stresses qualify as
>> > 'high-strength'? What sort of applications?"
>> >
>> > https://www.renehersecycles.com/just-a-bunch-of-bolts/
>> >
>> > Jan Heine has some good idea, but IMO he often goes off into the weeds.
>> >
>> > I can't remember the last time I broke a stainless steel fastener on a
>> > bike. It may have never happened.
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > - Frank Krygowski
>> Pff... as if the bolts on a bicycle are in the high end application category.
>> I read the article and what I came up with is 'what a snob...' YMMV.
>>
>> Lou
>
>I have heard about people snapping stem bolts. At least the titanium bolts. Maybe not the steel bolts. So stem bolts might fall into the high stress application category. I've always thought of stainless steel bolts as being pretty strong. Other than maybe rounding out the Phillips head or Allen head on top, never worried much about bolts. I have broken a few drywall screws with both hand screwdrivers and battery drills. But drywall screws are notoriously fragile.

Well, just about any bolt/screw can be stretched or broken. We once
had a spat of Caterpillar head bolts break. 5/8", Grade 8, bolts. We
identified the mechanic responsible and took the 3 foot extension
handle for his socket wrench away, and that solved the problem.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Mon, 25 Apr 2022 20:16:37 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 4/25/2022 7:36 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Mon, 25 Apr 2022 16:53:30 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>> <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 1:10:30 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>> On Thursday, April 21, 2022 at 8:21:33 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>> "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm sure there are countless engineers who would be surprised to read
>>>>> that blanket statement. They might ask "_Which_ stainless steel? How
>>>>> brittle, under what conditions? What sort of stresses qualify as
>>>>> 'high-strength'? What sort of applications?"
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.renehersecycles.com/just-a-bunch-of-bolts/
>>>>>
>>>>> Jan Heine has some good idea, but IMO he often goes off into the weeds.
>>>>>
>>>>> I can't remember the last time I broke a stainless steel fastener on a
>>>>> bike. It may have never happened.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>> Pff... as if the bolts on a bicycle are in the high end application category.
>>>> I read the article and what I came up with is 'what a snob...' YMMV.
>>>
>>> Steel is iron with carbon in it. It was originated simply by smelting iron in coal fired ovens. Crying about chromium or molybdenum added to the mixture make pretty minor improvements. (for instance; adding chromium doesn't improve the strength but the hardness or rigidity of the material. Stainless is largely iron with a larger percentage of other materials such as aluminum, nickel, vanadium etc. Stainless is a material you HAVE to know how to work. Overheating and quenching like you would some steels causes it to crystalize and become brittle. You can see this has occurred in the manufacture of screws in particular since they turn these things out so rapidly that they can overheat the material and then it can be quenched coming off of the tool because they are in an oil bath, Then when you tighten the bolt it simply breaks. Its been far too long since I dealt with this but I seem to remember that you can heat it up to something like a thousand degrees F and let it stay there f
>or
>>> some time and then allow it to air cool and it forms a different sort of austenitic structure more like steel and so it is much stronger.
>>
>> https://www.theworldmaterial.com/aisi-316-ss316-stainless-steel-properties-composition/#Hardening
>> "Type 316 SS cannot be hardened by heat treating"
>>
>
>OK, fine.
>But any claim about 'stainless' generally is pointless- it's
>a big group of wildly different materials. Some examples:
>
>https://www.mori2a.com/en/dont-stop/news/prodottiproducts/stainless-steel-200-series-in-cr-mn-a-safe-alternative-to-304/
>
>https://www.searchsteel.info/2011/03/stainless-technical-standards-and.html

You are certainly correct.
And after looking it up it seems that 304, not 316, is the most
commonly used for "stainless steel machine screws". So I looked that
up.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Mon, 25 Apr 2022 18:48:22 -0700 (PDT), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 6:26:05 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> On Mon, 25 Apr 2022 08:02:58 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>> >On 4/24/2022 10:05 PM, John B. wrote:
>> >> On Sun, 24 Apr 2022 18:45:00 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> On Mon, 25 Apr 2022 05:56:39 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> (chomp)
>> >>>> But Tommy... Japan was not bombed into the stone age. In fact with the
>> >>>> exception of fire bombing in Tokyo and the two "atom" bombs there was
>> >>>> little bombing done in the rest of the country.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> And, I do know as I was there.
>> >>>
>> >>> I beg to differ somewhat.
>> >>>
>> >>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_raids_on_Japan>
>> >>> "Much of Japan's industrial capacity was also destroyed by Allied
>> >>> bombing. Over 600 major industrial facilities were destroyed or badly
>> >>> damaged, contributing to a large decline in production."
>> >>>
>> >>> There were also raids on the coastal naval bases and some of the major
>> >>> cities:
>> >>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_raids_on_Japan#/media/File:Areas_of_principal_Japanese_cities_destoyed_by_US_bombing.jpg>
>> >>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_raids_on_Japan#/media/File:Allied_naval_operations_off_Japan_during_July_and_August_1945_(edit_1).svg>
>> >>>
>> >>> The target committee had a difficult time finding worthwhile targets
>> >>> for the atom bombs because most of the worthwhile (military) targets
>> >>> had already been destroyed. The sole exception was Kyoto:
>> >>> "Why was Kyoto removed as the prime target for the A-Bomb?"
>> >>> <https://www.vaguelyinteresting.co.uk/why-was-kyoto-removed-as-the-prime-target-for-the-a-bomb/>
>> >>> Kyoto was the first choice for bombing, but was saved by Henry L.
>> >>> Stimson. The other cities were thoroughly bombed.
>> >>>
>> >>> I couldn't find anything on whether the US bombed the smaller towns
>> >>> and fields. When Japan decentralized production to small home
>> >>> workshops, they might have considered bombing. My guess(tm) is they
>> >>> didn't. Bombing isn't very effect against low density targets.
>> >>
>> >> Well, I can tell you, for sure, that when I went to Japan, 1954 there
>> >> was, in the Kanto area (Tokyo, etc.) no evidence whatsoever of any
>> >> bomb damage.
>> >>
>> >> As for industrial damage, Tachakawa Air Base which the Wiki states
>> >> "was rendered unserviceable by the bombing raids, along with most of
>> >> the structures and support facilities of the airfield by the time the
>> >> first United States Army forces moved in on 5 September 1945", seemed
>> >> to be in perfect condition and structures such as a large Wind Tunnel,
>> >> never used by the U.S. appeared to be undamaged.
>> >>
>> >> Granted that I arrived in the country 9 years after the war ended but
>> >> still, no evidence at all? And in many cases what certainly appeared
>> >> to be the original Japanese structures were still in use. When I
>> >> first was assigned to Yokota AFB I lived in a long, wooden, barracks
>> >> said, by the Japanese "House Boys" to have been used by the Japanese
>> >> A.F.
>> >>
>> >> I was told, by Japanese, about the fire bombing of residential
>> >> districts of Tokyo, which I might add the Japanese seemed to think was
>> >> a rather strange thing to do as, they commented, you can build a new
>> >> house in a few days.
>> >>
>> >
>> >You saw scant evidence because by 1954 the burnt wood/paper
>> >structures had been cleared and rebuilt.
>> >
>> Well there is that. But my comments about Tachakawa Air Base
>> structures they were never used by the U.S. and thus must date to at
>> least the "war days" being undamaged still stands.
>>
>> As an aside, I once watched a typical Japanese house being built on a
>> lot on the road, in Japan, I traveled over to get from the house to
>> the air base. From bare lot to living in it - two weeks (:-)
>>
>> --
>> Cheers,
>>
>> John B.
>
>Did the new house have electricity, running water, and a sewage system? And a heating system more complicated than a wood burning fireplace? In the 1950s in the USA, almost all houses had those basics. Old or new.

A typical Japanese house of that era, in that area, had electricity,
and usually running water, but the sewage system was a simple pit
under the squat down "toilet" as in those days human feces was used as
a fertilizer.

And, no "Japanese" house that I was ever in had a "heating system". In
cold weather there might be a hibachi under the table but that was
about all.. However, houses built for foreigners, at least in the
Kanto area, often had kerosene heaters.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Mon, 25 Apr 2022 18:44:40 -0700 (PDT), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 6:19:01 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> On Mon, 25 Apr 2022 07:47:10 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 5:58:39 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> >> On 4/24/2022 8:45 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> >> > On Mon, 25 Apr 2022 05:56:39 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > (chomp)
>> >> >> But Tommy... Japan was not bombed into the stone age. In fact with the
>> >> >> exception of fire bombing in Tokyo and the two "atom" bombs there was
>> >> >> little bombing done in the rest of the country.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> And, I do know as I was there.
>> >> >
>> >> > I beg to differ somewhat.
>> >> >
>> >> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_raids_on_Japan>
>> >> > "Much of Japan's industrial capacity was also destroyed by Allied
>> >> > bombing. Over 600 major industrial facilities were destroyed or badly
>> >> > damaged, contributing to a large decline in production."
>> >> >
>> >> > There were also raids on the coastal naval bases and some of the major
>> >> > cities:
>> >> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_raids_on_Japan#/media/File:Areas_of_principal_Japanese_cities_destoyed_by_US_bombing.jpg>
>> >> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_raids_on_Japan#/media/File:Allied_naval_operations_off_Japan_during_July_and_August_1945_(edit_1).svg>
>> >> >
>> >> > The target committee had a difficult time finding worthwhile targets
>> >> > for the atom bombs because most of the worthwhile (military) targets
>> >> > had already been destroyed. The sole exception was Kyoto:
>> >> > "Why was Kyoto removed as the prime target for the A-Bomb?"
>> >> > <https://www.vaguelyinteresting.co.uk/why-was-kyoto-removed-as-the-prime-target-for-the-a-bomb/>
>> >> > Kyoto was the first choice for bombing, but was saved by Henry L.
>> >> > Stimson. The other cities were thoroughly bombed.
>> >> >
>> >> > I couldn't find anything on whether the US bombed the smaller towns
>> >> > and fields. When Japan decentralized production to small home
>> >> > workshops, they might have considered bombing. My guess(tm) is they
>> >> > didn't. Bombing isn't very effect against low density targets.
>> >> >
>> >> +1
>> >>
>> >> After weeks of firebombing, Curtis LeMay complained in July
>> >> 1945 there were not enough targets for his Army Air Corps.
>> >>
>> >> "Official estimates from the United States Strategic Bombing
>> >> Survey determined at least 330,000 killed, 476,000 injured,
>> >> 8.5 million people made homeless, and 2.5 million buildings
>> >> destroyed. Almost half of 64 Japanese mainland cities were
>> >> completely destroyed. The destruction was not lost on LeMay.
>> >> He acknowledged that if the Japanese had won the war, he
>> >> would have been tried as a war criminal.
>> >>
>> >> Later he would reveal that dropping the atomic bombs was
>> >> totally unnecessary, given the level of destruction he had
>> >> already waged on Japan. He said he only dropped them because
>> >> of President Truman’s authority. After the war, Japan’s
>> >> former Prime Minister Fumimaro Konoe confirmed that the
>> >> decision to surrender was based on the prolonged bombing
>> >> wrought by General LeMay’s Marianas-based air forces. "
>> >>
>> >> https://www.wearethemighty.com/mighty-history/7-awesome-airpower-quotes-general-curtis-lemay/
>> >
>> >I find it absolutely amazing that John has to make such a fool out of himself. He claims to have been to Japan and yet seems to have absolutely no idea of how the Japanese lived. To say that he was there 10 years AFTER the war and after the US dumped in what would be $21 Billion in today's dollars to rebuild Japan after the war, is purely ignorant right on the surface. Then considering that it wasn't until the 80's or so before Japan was even allowed to have self defense forces so that virtually every penny they had could go into the reconstruction of their own country shows a level of stupidity that even Google can't help.
>> Well Tommy, I was there, I spent 8 years there, I learned to speak
>> sufficient Japanese to get by with and I even married a Japanese Girl
>> so I do know something about Japan. Certain far more then you do.
>>
>
>But John, unlike Tommy boy, you did not learn about Japan from Fox News or Tucker Ivy League Carlson or Laura Ingraham. Authentic Fox spokes persons. Living in Japan for 8 years? Marrying a Japanese woman? Interacting with and seeing Japanese people for 8 years? How on earth are you going to learn about Japan that way? Tommy boy took a plane ride on an Air Force plane from some island in the middle of the Pacific Ocean and flew within a few thousand miles of Japan. That is the only way to learn about Japan.

Tommy's stories about flying about in B-52's are highly imaginative.
At best.

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Tue, 26 Apr 2022 10:30:47 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Well, just about any bolt/screw can be stretched or broken. We once
>had a spat of Caterpillar head bolts break. 5/8", Grade 8, bolts. We
>identified the mechanic responsible and took the 3 foot extension
>handle for his socket wrench away, and that solved the problem.

There's a reason they're called "breaker bars". They break things.
Also, the steel pipe over the wrench handle is sometimes called a
"torque amplifier".

Then, there's the "L Handle Wrench";
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owBhaRafdsU>
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEF5sYz_tF4>
"L-handle wrench attachments on both ends is compact and perfect for
trail packs, The design is very strong because there are no moving
parts."

The "T Handle Wrench" also qualifies, not because it looks like the
letter "T" but because the "T" stands for torque.

Drivel: Most small computer sheet metal cases use a mix of M4 and
6-32 screws. For a while, I was seeing computers arriving for repair
with most of the screws and threads stripped out. We soon located the
culprit and quietly arranged to replace his impact driver with a #2
Philips and a 1/4" hex head non-powered screwdrivers. The plague of
trashed computer cases soon ceased.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Mon, 25 Apr 2022 22:29:41 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>Most small computer sheet metal cases use a mix of M4 and
>6-32 screws.

Oops. That should be M3 and 6-32 screws.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_case_screws>

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Mon, 25 Apr 2022 22:29:41 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Tue, 26 Apr 2022 10:30:47 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Well, just about any bolt/screw can be stretched or broken. We once
>>had a spat of Caterpillar head bolts break. 5/8", Grade 8, bolts. We
>>identified the mechanic responsible and took the 3 foot extension
>>handle for his socket wrench away, and that solved the problem.
>
>There's a reason they're called "breaker bars". They break things.
>Also, the steel pipe over the wrench handle is sometimes called a
>"torque amplifier".
>
>Then, there's the "L Handle Wrench";
><https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owBhaRafdsU>
><https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEF5sYz_tF4>
>"L-handle wrench attachments on both ends is compact and perfect for
>trail packs, The design is very strong because there are no moving
>parts."
>
>The "T Handle Wrench" also qualifies, not because it looks like the
>letter "T" but because the "T" stands for torque.
>
>Drivel: Most small computer sheet metal cases use a mix of M4 and
>6-32 screws. For a while, I was seeing computers arriving for repair
>with most of the screws and threads stripped out. We soon located the
>culprit and quietly arranged to replace his impact driver with a #2
>Philips and a 1/4" hex head non-powered screwdrivers. The plague of
>trashed computer cases soon ceased.

What I did was replace all the bolts/screws on my bicycles with Allen
head. Not the steering head bolt - I use 1" steerer's - and bottom
bracket bolts, but essentially everything else, which reduced my "tool
kit" to 3 or 4 Allen wrenches and a tire iron. Which made my tool bag
less heavy and tends control torque a bit as tightening an Allen head
fastener enough to break it with a dinky little Allen wrench hurts the
hand (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Tuesday, April 26, 2022 at 3:37:26 AM UTC+2, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 3:10:30 PM UTC-5, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Thursday, April 21, 2022 at 8:21:33 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."
> > >
> > > I'm sure there are countless engineers who would be surprised to read
> > > that blanket statement. They might ask "_Which_ stainless steel? How
> > > brittle, under what conditions? What sort of stresses qualify as
> > > 'high-strength'? What sort of applications?"
> > >
> > > https://www.renehersecycles.com/just-a-bunch-of-bolts/
> > >
> > > Jan Heine has some good idea, but IMO he often goes off into the weeds.
> > >
> > > I can't remember the last time I broke a stainless steel fastener on a
> > > bike. It may have never happened.
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > - Frank Krygowski
> > Pff... as if the bolts on a bicycle are in the high end application category.
> > I read the article and what I came up with is 'what a snob...' YMMV.
> >
> > Lou
> I have heard about people snapping stem bolts.

When torqued to spec?

> At least the titanium bolts.

I don't know if Ti bolts are also rolled. The ones I saw were often cut. That is not a good idea. Stems are not a good application for Ti bolts.

Lou

Am 26.04.2022 um 03:30 schrieb russellseaton1@yahoo.com:
> On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 7:58:39 AM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 4/24/2022 8:45 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>> On Mon, 25 Apr 2022 05:56:39 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> (chomp)
>>>> But Tommy... Japan was not bombed into the stone age. In fact
>>>> with the exception of fire bombing in Tokyo and the two "atom"
>>>> bombs there was little bombing done in the rest of the
>>>> country.
>>>>
>>>> And, I do know as I was there.
>>>
>>> I beg to differ somewhat.
>>>
>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_raids_on_Japan> "Much of
>>> Japan's industrial capacity was also destroyed by Allied bombing.
>>> Over 600 major industrial facilities were destroyed or badly
>>> damaged, contributing to a large decline in production."
>>>
>>> There were also raids on the coastal naval bases and some of the
>>> major cities:
>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_raids_on_Japan#/media/File:Areas_of_principal_Japanese_cities_destoyed_by_US_bombing.jpg>
>>>
>>>
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_raids_on_Japan#/media/File:Allied_naval_operations_off_Japan_during_July_and_August_1945_(edit_1).svg>
>>>
>>> The target committee had a difficult time finding worthwhile
>>> targets for the atom bombs because most of the worthwhile
>>> (military) targets had already been destroyed. The sole exception
>>> was Kyoto: "Why was Kyoto removed as the prime target for the
>>> A-Bomb?"
>>> <https://www.vaguelyinteresting.co.uk/why-was-kyoto-removed-as-the-prime-target-for-the-a-bomb/>
>>>
>>>
Kyoto was the first choice for bombing, but was saved by Henry L.
>>> Stimson. The other cities were thoroughly bombed.
>>>
>>> I couldn't find anything on whether the US bombed the smaller
>>> towns and fields. When Japan decentralized production to small
>>> home workshops, they might have considered bombing. My guess(tm)
>>> is they didn't. Bombing isn't very effect against low density
>>> targets.
>>>
>> +1
>>
>> After weeks of firebombing, Curtis LeMay complained in July 1945
>> there were not enough targets for his Army Air Corps.
>>
>> "Official estimates from the United States Strategic Bombing Survey
>> determined at least 330,000 killed, 476,000 injured, 8.5 million
>> people made homeless, and 2.5 million buildings destroyed. Almost
>> half of 64 Japanese mainland cities were completely destroyed. The
>> destruction was not lost on LeMay. He acknowledged that if the
>> Japanese had won the war, he would have been tried as a war
>> criminal.
>>
>> Later he would reveal that dropping the atomic bombs was totally
>> unnecessary, given the level of destruction he had already waged on
>> Japan. He said he only dropped them because of President Truman’s
>> authority. After the war, Japan’s former Prime Minister Fumimaro
>> Konoe confirmed that the decision to surrender was based on the
>> prolonged bombing wrought by General LeMay’s Marianas-based air
>> forces. "
>>
>> https://www.wearethemighty.com/mighty-history/7-awesome-airpower-quotes-general-curtis-lemay/
>>
>>
--
>> Andrew Muzi <www.yellowjersey.org/> Open every day since 1 April,
>> 1971
>
> Knives can kill people. One way is to cut a person multiple times
> all over their body and they will eventually lose enough blood to
> die. And suffer enormous pain from all the cuts. Other way a knife
> can kill someone is if you plunge it directly into a person's heart.
> Dead in 10 seconds or so.
>
> Did LeMay explain why he did not completely destroy the other half of
> the 64 mainland Japanese cities? Did he not have enough airplanes or
> bombs? Was he planning to start completely destroying them in mid
> August 1945? So that by December 1945 all 64 mainland Japanese
> cities would all be completely destroyed.

The UK "Bomber Harris" did that to Germany (not only the "64 cities" but
also the few hundred "towns with industry"), and it did not lead to
Germany surrendering a few months earlier.

So in 1945, there was no known precedent that carpet bombing a country
leads to surrender.

Rolf

Am 26.04.2022 um 04:07 schrieb russellseaton1@yahoo.com:
> On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 8:41:57 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 4/25/2022 8:30 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>> On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 7:58:39 AM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 4/24/2022 8:45 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 25 Apr 2022 05:56:39 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> (chomp)
>>>>>> But Tommy... Japan was not bombed into the stone age. In fact with the
>>>>>> exception of fire bombing in Tokyo and the two "atom" bombs there was
>>>>>> little bombing done in the rest of the country.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And, I do know as I was there.
>>>>>
>>>>> I beg to differ somewhat.
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_raids_on_Japan>
>>>>> "Much of Japan's industrial capacity was also destroyed by Allied
>>>>> bombing. Over 600 major industrial facilities were destroyed or badly
>>>>> damaged, contributing to a large decline in production."
>>>>>
>>>>> There were also raids on the coastal naval bases and some of the major
>>>>> cities:
>>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_raids_on_Japan#/media/File:Areas_of_principal_Japanese_cities_destoyed_by_US_bombing.jpg>
>>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_raids_on_Japan#/media/File:Allied_naval_operations_off_Japan_during_July_and_August_1945_(edit_1).svg>
>>>>>
>>>>> The target committee had a difficult time finding worthwhile targets
>>>>> for the atom bombs because most of the worthwhile (military) targets
>>>>> had already been destroyed. The sole exception was Kyoto:
>>>>> "Why was Kyoto removed as the prime target for the A-Bomb?"
>>>>> <https://www.vaguelyinteresting.co.uk/why-was-kyoto-removed-as-the-prime-target-for-the-a-bomb/>
>>>>> Kyoto was the first choice for bombing, but was saved by Henry L.
>>>>> Stimson. The other cities were thoroughly bombed.
>>>>>
>>>>> I couldn't find anything on whether the US bombed the smaller towns
>>>>> and fields. When Japan decentralized production to small home
>>>>> workshops, they might have considered bombing. My guess(tm) is they
>>>>> didn't. Bombing isn't very effect against low density targets.
>>>>>
>>>> +1
>>>>
>>>> After weeks of firebombing, Curtis LeMay complained in July
>>>> 1945 there were not enough targets for his Army Air Corps.
>>>>
>>>> "Official estimates from the United States Strategic Bombing
>>>> Survey determined at least 330,000 killed, 476,000 injured,
>>>> 8.5 million people made homeless, and 2.5 million buildings
>>>> destroyed. Almost half of 64 Japanese mainland cities were
>>>> completely destroyed. The destruction was not lost on LeMay.
>>>> He acknowledged that if the Japanese had won the war, he
>>>> would have been tried as a war criminal.
>>>>
>>>> Later he would reveal that dropping the atomic bombs was
>>>> totally unnecessary, given the level of destruction he had
>>>> already waged on Japan. He said he only dropped them because
>>>> of President Truman’s authority. After the war, Japan’s
>>>> former Prime Minister Fumimaro Konoe confirmed that the
>>>> decision to surrender was based on the prolonged bombing
>>>> wrought by General LeMay’s Marianas-based air forces. "
>>>>
>>>> https://www.wearethemighty.com/mighty-history/7-awesome-airpower-quotes-general-curtis-lemay/
>>>> --
>>>> Andrew Muzi
>>>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>>>
>>> Knives can kill people. One way is to cut a person multiple times all over their body and they will eventually lose enough blood to die. And suffer enormous pain from all the cuts. Other way a knife can kill someone is if you plunge it directly into a person's heart. Dead in 10 seconds or so.
>>>
>>> Did LeMay explain why he did not completely destroy the other half of the 64 mainland Japanese cities? Did he not have enough airplanes or bombs? Was he planning to start completely destroying them in mid August 1945? So that by December 1945 all 64 mainland Japanese cities would all be completely destroyed.
>>>
>> You are not innumerate. The phrasing in the quoted link may
>> be inartful but of 64 major cities, half were utterly
>> destroyed. The other 32 were drastically damaged and reduced.
>
> From what I have read of history, Hiroshima and Nagasaki were fairly "virgin" cities. Until being annihilated by Little Boy and Fat Man.

ISTR that these two cities were "preserved for demonstration" from May
45 onwards or so.

Rolf

On 4/26/2022 1:46 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Tuesday, April 26, 2022 at 3:37:26 AM UTC+2, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>> On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 3:10:30 PM UTC-5, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Thursday, April 21, 2022 at 8:21:33 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."
>>>>
>>>> I'm sure there are countless engineers who would be surprised to read
>>>> that blanket statement. They might ask "_Which_ stainless steel? How
>>>> brittle, under what conditions? What sort of stresses qualify as
>>>> 'high-strength'? What sort of applications?"
>>>>
>>>> https://www.renehersecycles.com/just-a-bunch-of-bolts/
>>>>
>>>> Jan Heine has some good idea, but IMO he often goes off into the weeds.
>>>>
>>>> I can't remember the last time I broke a stainless steel fastener on a
>>>> bike. It may have never happened.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>> Pff... as if the bolts on a bicycle are in the high end application category.
>>> I read the article and what I came up with is 'what a snob...' YMMV.
>>>
>>> Lou
>> I have heard about people snapping stem bolts.
>
> When torqued to spec?
>
>> At least the titanium bolts.
>
> I don't know if Ti bolts are also rolled. The ones I saw were often cut. That is not a good idea. Stems are not a good application for Ti bolts.
>
>
> Lou
>

+1

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Tuesday, April 26, 2022 at 5:38:50 a.m. UTC-4, Rolf Mantel wrote:
> Am 26.04.2022 um 04:07 schrieb russell...@yahoo.com:
> > On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 8:41:57 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 4/25/2022 8:30 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>> On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 7:58:39 AM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>> On 4/24/2022 8:45 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> >>>>> On Mon, 25 Apr 2022 05:56:39 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> (chomp)
> >>>>>> But Tommy... Japan was not bombed into the stone age. In fact with the
> >>>>>> exception of fire bombing in Tokyo and the two "atom" bombs there was
> >>>>>> little bombing done in the rest of the country.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> And, I do know as I was there.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I beg to differ somewhat.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_raids_on_Japan>
> >>>>> "Much of Japan's industrial capacity was also destroyed by Allied
> >>>>> bombing. Over 600 major industrial facilities were destroyed or badly
> >>>>> damaged, contributing to a large decline in production."
> >>>>>
> >>>>> There were also raids on the coastal naval bases and some of the major
> >>>>> cities:
> >>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_raids_on_Japan#/media/File:Areas_of_principal_Japanese_cities_destoyed_by_US_bombing.jpg>
> >>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_raids_on_Japan#/media/File:Allied_naval_operations_off_Japan_during_July_and_August_1945_(edit_1).svg>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The target committee had a difficult time finding worthwhile targets
> >>>>> for the atom bombs because most of the worthwhile (military) targets
> >>>>> had already been destroyed. The sole exception was Kyoto:
> >>>>> "Why was Kyoto removed as the prime target for the A-Bomb?"
> >>>>> <https://www.vaguelyinteresting.co.uk/why-was-kyoto-removed-as-the-prime-target-for-the-a-bomb/>
> >>>>> Kyoto was the first choice for bombing, but was saved by Henry L.
> >>>>> Stimson. The other cities were thoroughly bombed.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I couldn't find anything on whether the US bombed the smaller towns
> >>>>> and fields. When Japan decentralized production to small home
> >>>>> workshops, they might have considered bombing. My guess(tm) is they
> >>>>> didn't. Bombing isn't very effect against low density targets.
> >>>>>
> >>>> +1
> >>>>
> >>>> After weeks of firebombing, Curtis LeMay complained in July
> >>>> 1945 there were not enough targets for his Army Air Corps.
> >>>>
> >>>> "Official estimates from the United States Strategic Bombing
> >>>> Survey determined at least 330,000 killed, 476,000 injured,
> >>>> 8.5 million people made homeless, and 2.5 million buildings
> >>>> destroyed. Almost half of 64 Japanese mainland cities were
> >>>> completely destroyed. The destruction was not lost on LeMay.
> >>>> He acknowledged that if the Japanese had won the war, he
> >>>> would have been tried as a war criminal.
> >>>>
> >>>> Later he would reveal that dropping the atomic bombs was
> >>>> totally unnecessary, given the level of destruction he had
> >>>> already waged on Japan. He said he only dropped them because
> >>>> of President Truman’s authority. After the war, Japan’s
> >>>> former Prime Minister Fumimaro Konoe confirmed that the
> >>>> decision to surrender was based on the prolonged bombing
> >>>> wrought by General LeMay’s Marianas-based air forces. "
> >>>>
> >>>> https://www.wearethemighty.com/mighty-history/7-awesome-airpower-quotes-general-curtis-lemay/
> >>>> --
> >>>> Andrew Muzi
> >>>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> >>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> >>>
> >>> Knives can kill people. One way is to cut a person multiple times all over their body and they will eventually lose enough blood to die. And suffer enormous pain from all the cuts. Other way a knife can kill someone is if you plunge it directly into a person's heart. Dead in 10 seconds or so.
> >>>
> >>> Did LeMay explain why he did not completely destroy the other half of the 64 mainland Japanese cities? Did he not have enough airplanes or bombs? Was he planning to start completely destroying them in mid August 1945? So that by December 1945 all 64 mainland Japanese cities would all be completely destroyed.
> >>>
> >> You are not innumerate. The phrasing in the quoted link may
> >> be inartful but of 64 major cities, half were utterly
> >> destroyed. The other 32 were drastically damaged and reduced.
> >
> > From what I have read of history, Hiroshima and Nagasaki were fairly "virgin" cities. Until being annihilated by Little Boy and Fat Man.
> ISTR that these two cities were "preserved for demonstration" from May
> 45 onwards or so.
>
> Rolf

There was one Japanese fellow who left Hiroshima, after the atomic bomb hit, and arrived in Nagasaki just in time for the second atomic bomb. Miraculously, he survived both.

Cheers

On 4/26/2022 4:37 AM, Rolf Mantel wrote:
> Am 26.04.2022 um 03:30 schrieb russellseaton1@yahoo.com:
>> On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 7:58:39 AM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 4/24/2022 8:45 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 25 Apr 2022 05:56:39 +0700, John B.
>>>> <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> (chomp)
>>>>> But Tommy... Japan was not bombed into the stone age.
>>>>> In fact
>>>>> with the exception of fire bombing in Tokyo and the two
>>>>> "atom"
>>>>> bombs there was little bombing done in the rest of the
>>>>> country.
>>>>>
>>>>> And, I do know as I was there.
>>>>
>>>> I beg to differ somewhat.
>>>>
>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_raids_on_Japan> "Much of
>>>> Japan's industrial capacity was also destroyed by Allied
>>>> bombing.
>>>> Over 600 major industrial facilities were destroyed or
>>>> badly damaged, contributing to a large decline in
>>>> production."
>>>>
>>>> There were also raids on the coastal naval bases and
>>>> some of the
>>>> major cities:
>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_raids_on_Japan#/media/File:Areas_of_principal_Japanese_cities_destoyed_by_US_bombing.jpg>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_raids_on_Japan#/media/File:Allied_naval_operations_off_Japan_during_July_and_August_1945_(edit_1).svg>
>
>>>>
>>>> The target committee had a difficult time finding
>>>> worthwhile
>>>> targets for the atom bombs because most of the worthwhile
>>>> (military) targets had already been destroyed. The sole
>>>> exception
>>>> was Kyoto: "Why was Kyoto removed as the prime target
>>>> for the
>>>> A-Bomb?"
>>>> <https://www.vaguelyinteresting.co.uk/why-was-kyoto-removed-as-the-prime-target-for-the-a-bomb/>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
> Kyoto was the first choice for bombing, but was saved by
> Henry L.
>>>> Stimson. The other cities were thoroughly bombed.
>>>>
>>>> I couldn't find anything on whether the US bombed the
>>>> smaller
>>>> towns and fields. When Japan decentralized production to
>>>> small
>>>> home workshops, they might have considered bombing. My
>>>> guess(tm)
>>>> is they didn't. Bombing isn't very effect against low
>>>> density
>>>> targets.
>>>>
>>> +1
>>>
>>> After weeks of firebombing, Curtis LeMay complained in
>>> July 1945
>>> there were not enough targets for his Army Air Corps.
>>>
>>> "Official estimates from the United States Strategic
>>> Bombing Survey
>>> determined at least 330,000 killed, 476,000 injured, 8.5
>>> million
>>> people made homeless, and 2.5 million buildings
>>> destroyed. Almost
>>> half of 64 Japanese mainland cities were completely
>>> destroyed. The
>>> destruction was not lost on LeMay. He acknowledged that
>>> if the
>>> Japanese had won the war, he would have been tried as a war
>>> criminal.
>>>
>>> Later he would reveal that dropping the atomic bombs was
>>> totally
>>> unnecessary, given the level of destruction he had
>>> already waged on
>>> Japan. He said he only dropped them because of President
>>> Truman’s
>>> authority. After the war, Japan’s former Prime Minister
>>> Fumimaro
>>> Konoe confirmed that the decision to surrender was based
>>> on the
>>> prolonged bombing wrought by General LeMay’s
>>> Marianas-based air
>>> forces. "
>>>
>>> https://www.wearethemighty.com/mighty-history/7-awesome-airpower-quotes-general-curtis-lemay/
>>>
>>>
>>>

The UK "Bomber Harris" did that to Germany (not only the "64
cities" but also the few hundred "towns with industry"), and
it did not lead to Germany surrendering a few months earlier.

So in 1945, there was no known precedent that carpet bombing
a country leads to surrender.

Rolf

Yes that's right. The entry of the Soviets into the Pacific
War on 8 August[1] was the deciding factor[2], the memory of
Nomonhan yet influencing Japan. Severe bombing more often
incites resistance, as at Leningrad.

The European city most bombed was Naples, which forced a
German withdrawal, not surrender.

[1] Agreed at Yalta, 90 days after German surrender
[2]Later evidence from Imperial administration and general
staff records

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 6:16:43 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 4/25/2022 7:36 PM, John B. wrote:
> > On Mon, 25 Apr 2022 16:53:30 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> > <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 1:10:30 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> >>> On Thursday, April 21, 2022 at 8:21:33 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>> "Stainless steel is too brittle for high-strength applications..."
> >>>>
> >>>> I'm sure there are countless engineers who would be surprised to read
> >>>> that blanket statement. They might ask "_Which_ stainless steel? How
> >>>> brittle, under what conditions? What sort of stresses qualify as
> >>>> 'high-strength'? What sort of applications?"
> >>>>
> >>>> https://www.renehersecycles.com/just-a-bunch-of-bolts/
> >>>>
> >>>> Jan Heine has some good idea, but IMO he often goes off into the weeds.
> >>>>
> >>>> I can't remember the last time I broke a stainless steel fastener on a
> >>>> bike. It may have never happened.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> - Frank Krygowski
> >>> Pff... as if the bolts on a bicycle are in the high end application category.
> >>> I read the article and what I came up with is 'what a snob...' YMMV.
> >>
> >> Steel is iron with carbon in it. It was originated simply by smelting iron in coal fired ovens. Crying about chromium or molybdenum added to the mixture make pretty minor improvements. (for instance; adding chromium doesn't improve the strength but the hardness or rigidity of the material. Stainless is largely iron with a larger percentage of other materials such as aluminum, nickel, vanadium etc. Stainless is a material you HAVE to know how to work. Overheating and quenching like you would some steels causes it to crystalize and become brittle. You can see this has occurred in the manufacture of screws in particular since they turn these things out so rapidly that they can overheat the material and then it can be quenched coming off of the tool because they are in an oil bath, Then when you tighten the bolt it simply breaks. Its been far too long since I dealt with this but I seem to remember that you can heat it up to something like a thousand degrees F and let it stay there f
> or
> >> some time and then allow it to air cool and it forms a different sort of austenitic structure more like steel and so it is much stronger.
> >
> > https://www.theworldmaterial.com/aisi-316-ss316-stainless-steel-properties-composition/#Hardening
> > "Type 316 SS cannot be hardened by heat treating"
> >
> OK, fine.
> But any claim about 'stainless' generally is pointless- it's
> a big group of wildly different materials. Some examples:
>
> https://www.mori2a.com/en/dont-stop/news/prodottiproducts/stainless-steel-200-series-in-cr-mn-a-safe-alternative-to-304/
>
> https://www.searchsteel.info/2011/03/stainless-technical-standards-and.html

As I've said before, it is impossible to say absolutely anything without that moron John Googling away and finding an exception to a rule and then passing it off as the rule rather than the exception. He is like having a parrot around the house that only knows a limited number of words. Hey John, I guess I just gave you the bird.