I am trying to find an 11-28 or 12-30 10 spd Shimano cassette. I can buy a new ultegra for $80 with tax and shipping. I am cheap I keep looking ebay and facebood hoping someone has one to get rid of that is not bad. I don't spend huge money maybe less than $50. Cannot find. Weird I would think 10 spd is gone and someone has one sitting around not in use. But can I find one?
Deacon mark

On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 12:51:42 PM UTC-7, deaco...@gmail.com wrote:
> I am trying to find an 11-28 or 12-30 10 spd Shimano cassette. I can buy a new ultegra for $80 with tax and shipping. I am cheap I keep looking ebay and facebood hoping someone has one to get rid of that is not bad. I don't spend huge money maybe less than $50. Cannot find. Weird I would think 10 spd is gone and someone has one sitting around not in use. But can I find one?
> Deacon mark

https://www.ebay.com/itm/294398593584?hash=item448b860a30:g:9PEAAOSwopBhZ~xu

On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 9:51:42 PM UTC+2, deaco...@gmail.com wrote:
> I am trying to find an 11-28 or 12-30 10 spd Shimano cassette. I can buy a new ultegra for $80 with tax and shipping. I am cheap I keep looking ebay and facebood hoping someone has one to get rid of that is not bad. I don't spend huge money maybe less than $50. Cannot find. Weird I would think 10 spd is gone and someone has one sitting around not in use. But can I find one?
> Deacon mark

Life is too short to be cheap. With your mileage a 30 dollar difference is even beyond peanuts.

Lou

On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 2:51:42 PM UTC-5, deaco...@gmail.com wrote:
> I am trying to find an 11-28 or 12-30 10 spd Shimano cassette. I can buy a new ultegra for $80 with tax and shipping. I am cheap I keep looking ebay and facebood hoping someone has one to get rid of that is not bad. I don't spend huge money maybe less than $50. Cannot find. Weird I would think 10 spd is gone and someone has one sitting around not in use. But can I find one?
> Deacon mark

I was already to cuss you out for being wrong. But I looked on Amazon and genuine Shimano 10 speed cassettes are kind of pricey. I did find some Ultegra cassettes in your chosen sizes in the $62 and $74 price.

https://www.amazon.com/SHIMANO-CS-6700-Ultegra-Cassette-10-Speed/dp/B007Q4NUIC/ref=sr_1_3_mod_primary_new?crid=7YVLZC6C84IV&keywords=10%2Bspeed%2Bshimano%2Bcassette&qid=1651207142&sbo=RZvfv%2F%2FHxDF%2BO5021pAnSA%3D%3D&sprefix=10%2Bspeed%2Bshimano%2B%2Caps%2C102&sr=8-3&th=1&psc=1

Shimano 105 for $65.
https://www.amazon.com/Shimano-CS-5700-10-Speed-Cassette-11-28T/dp/B003RT81SY/ref=sr_1_7?crid=7YVLZC6C84IV&keywords=10%2Bspeed%2Bshimano%2Bcassette&qid=1651207142&sprefix=10%2Bspeed%2Bshimano%2B%2Caps%2C102&sr=8-7&th=1&psc=1

On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 3:51:42 PM UTC-4, deaco...@gmail.com wrote:
> I am trying to find an 11-28 or 12-30 10 spd Shimano cassette. I can buy a new ultegra for $80 with tax and shipping. I am cheap I keep looking ebay and facebood hoping someone has one to get rid of that is not bad. I don't spend huge money maybe less than $50. Cannot find. Weird I would think 10 spd is gone and someone has one sitting around not in use. But can I find one?
> Deacon mark

I made the mistake of buying a casette off ebay from a private seller once.. I barely made it out of my driveway when the damn thing started skipping. Never ever buy a used cassette/freewheel unless you've actually ridden the wheel it came off of.

On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 5:59:05 PM UTC-4, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 9:51:42 PM UTC+2, deaco...@gmail.com wrote:
> > I am trying to find an 11-28 or 12-30 10 spd Shimano cassette. I can buy a new ultegra for $80 with tax and shipping. I am cheap I keep looking ebay and facebood hoping someone has one to get rid of that is not bad. I don't spend huge money maybe less than $50. Cannot find. Weird I would think 10 spd is gone and someone has one sitting around not in use. But can I find one?
> > Deacon mark
> Life is too short to be cheap. With your mileage a 30 dollar difference is even beyond peanuts.
>
> Lou
+1

On 4/28/2022 12:51 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
> I am trying to find an 11-28 or 12-30 10 spd Shimano cassette. I can buy a new ultegra for $80 with tax and shipping. I am cheap I keep looking ebay and facebood hoping someone has one to get rid of that is not bad. I don't spend huge money maybe less than $50. Cannot find. Weird I would think 10 spd is gone and someone has one sitting around not in use. But can I find one?
> Deacon mark

Check craigslist in your area. eBay sellers typically ask top price.

<https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/bop/d/berkeley-10-speed-shimano-ultegra/7467838032.html>

<https://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/bop/d/palo-alto-cassette-10-speed-xt/7461998560.html>

A new 105 is $63 from Nashbar/Performance
<https://www.performancebike.com/shimano-105-cs5700-cassette-silver-10-speed-shimano-sram-1128t-ics570010128/p403024?v=311898>

You might also check the LBS for this. Often they'll have parts like
this around that they've removed from bicycles where the owner has
changed the cassette for a different range and they're willing to let
the like-new cassette go for a good price.

On Friday, April 29, 2022 at 10:23:56 AM UTC-5, sms wrote:
> On 4/28/2022 12:51 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
> > I am trying to find an 11-28 or 12-30 10 spd Shimano cassette. I can buy a new ultegra for $80 with tax and shipping. I am cheap I keep looking ebay and facebood hoping someone has one to get rid of that is not bad. I don't spend huge money maybe less than $50. Cannot find. Weird I would think 10 spd is gone and someone has one sitting around not in use. But can I find one?
> > Deacon mark
> Check craigslist in your area. eBay sellers typically ask top price.
>
> <https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/bop/d/berkeley-10-speed-shimano-ultegra/7467838032.html>
>
> <https://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/bop/d/palo-alto-cassette-10-speed-xt/7461998560.html>
>
> A new 105 is $63 from Nashbar/Performance
> <https://www.performancebike.com/shimano-105-cs5700-cassette-silver-10-speed-shimano-sram-1128t-ics570010128/p403024?v=311898>
>
> You might also check the LBS for this. Often they'll have parts like
> this around that they've removed from bicycles where the owner has
> changed the cassette for a different range and they're willing to let
> the like-new cassette go for a good price.
I am going Shimano I guess I just have to pony up and pay the price. Worth if for sure Lou has it correct.
Deacon Mark

On Friday, April 29, 2022 at 8:54:55 AM UTC-7, deaco...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, April 29, 2022 at 10:23:56 AM UTC-5, sms wrote:
> > On 4/28/2022 12:51 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
> > > I am trying to find an 11-28 or 12-30 10 spd Shimano cassette. I can buy a new ultegra for $80 with tax and shipping. I am cheap I keep looking ebay and facebood hoping someone has one to get rid of that is not bad. I don't spend huge money maybe less than $50. Cannot find. Weird I would think 10 spd is gone and someone has one sitting around not in use. But can I find one?
> > > Deacon mark
> > Check craigslist in your area. eBay sellers typically ask top price.
> >
> > <https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/bop/d/berkeley-10-speed-shimano-ultegra/7467838032.html>
> >
> > <https://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/bop/d/palo-alto-cassette-10-speed-xt/7461998560.html>
> >
> > A new 105 is $63 from Nashbar/Performance
> > <https://www.performancebike.com/shimano-105-cs5700-cassette-silver-10-speed-shimano-sram-1128t-ics570010128/p403024?v=311898>
> >
> > You might also check the LBS for this. Often they'll have parts like
> > this around that they've removed from bicycles where the owner has
> > changed the cassette for a different range and they're willing to let
> > the like-new cassette go for a good price.
> I am going Shimano I guess I just have to pony up and pay the price. Worth if for sure Lou has it correct.
> Deacon Mark
If you have an 11 speed, either Campy or Shimano have the same spacing between cogs. This is not the case for 10, 12, or more.

But for 10 speed, the 11-28 I referenced works VERY well and it is super light as well. For $33 if it wears out you can simply buy a new one. But I haven't managed to wear one out yet and I have three bikes with those cassettes on them.

On 4/29/2022 9:15 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 3:51:42 PM UTC-4, deaco...@gmail.com wrote:
>> I am trying to find an 11-28 or 12-30 10 spd Shimano cassette. I can buy a new ultegra for $80 with tax and shipping. I am cheap I keep looking ebay and facebood hoping someone has one to get rid of that is not bad. I don't spend huge money maybe less than $50. Cannot find. Weird I would think 10 spd is gone and someone has one sitting around not in use. But can I find one?
>> Deacon mark
>
> I made the mistake of buying a casette off ebay from a private seller once. I barely made it out of my driveway when the damn thing started skipping. Never ever buy a used cassette/freewheel unless you've actually ridden the wheel it came off of.
>

New ones have a different set of failure modes now:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/failcscn.jpg

because... china!

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 4/29/2022 3:15 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 4/29/2022 9:15 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 3:51:42 PM UTC-4, deaco...@gmail.com
>> wrote:
>>> I am trying to find an 11-28 or 12-30 10 spd Shimano cassette. I can
>>> buy a new ultegra for $80 with tax and shipping. I am cheap I keep
>>> looking ebay and facebood hoping someone has one to get rid of that
>>> is not bad. I don't spend huge money maybe less than $50. Cannot
>>> find. Weird I would think 10 spd is gone and someone has one sitting
>>> around not in use. But can I find one?
>>> Deacon mark
>>
>>   I made the mistake of buying a casette off ebay from a private
>> seller once. I barely made it out of my driveway when the damn thing
>> started skipping. Never ever buy a used cassette/freewheel unless
>> you've actually ridden the wheel it came off of.
>>
>
> New ones have a different set of failure modes now:
> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/failcscn.jpg
>
> because... china!

Wow. Any word on how that failure happened? It seems really weird.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 4/29/2022 10:15 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 5:59:05 PM UTC-4, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 9:51:42 PM UTC+2, deaco...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> I am trying to find an 11-28 or 12-30 10 spd Shimano cassette. I can buy a new ultegra for $80 with tax and shipping. I am cheap I keep looking ebay and facebood hoping someone has one to get rid of that is not bad. I don't spend huge money maybe less than $50. Cannot find. Weird I would think 10 spd is gone and someone has one sitting around not in use. But can I find one?
>>> Deacon mark
>> Life is too short to be cheap. With your mileage a 30 dollar difference is even beyond peanuts.
>>
>> Lou
> +1

Everyone's got their own preferences, but I'd not be too general in
saying that particular $30 shouldn't matter.

If that particular $30 doesn't matter, should the next $30 increase also
not matter? And the one after that? Using mathematical induction, it
seems you'd soon be justifying paying $1000 for ten cogs.

https://www.mathsisfun.com/algebra/mathematical-induction.html

I prefer to think in terms of benefits vs. detriments. Certainly, not
having a cassette is a big detriment. $80 to fix that may be reasonable.
$50 may be more reasonable, depending how many hours it takes to find
one at that price.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 4/29/2022 3:22 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 4/29/2022 3:15 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 4/29/2022 9:15 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>> On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 3:51:42 PM UTC-4,
>>> deaco...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> I am trying to find an 11-28 or 12-30 10 spd Shimano
>>>> cassette. I can buy a new ultegra for $80 with tax and
>>>> shipping. I am cheap I keep looking ebay and facebood
>>>> hoping someone has one to get rid of that is not bad. I
>>>> don't spend huge money maybe less than $50. Cannot find.
>>>> Weird I would think 10 spd is gone and someone has one
>>>> sitting around not in use. But can I find one?
>>>> Deacon mark
>>>
>>> Â I made the mistake of buying a casette off ebay from a
>>> private seller once. I barely made it out of my driveway
>>> when the damn thing started skipping. Never ever buy a
>>> used cassette/freewheel unless you've actually ridden the
>>> wheel it came off of.
>>>
>>
>> New ones have a different set of failure modes now:
>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/failcscn.jpg
>>
>> because... china!
>
> Wow. Any word on how that failure happened? It seems really
> weird.
>
>
Cracks all through the low gear sprocket support webs.
Didn't look at the other sprockets. Whatever it is it looks
a lot like steel, and it responds to a magnet, but it's not
whatever material Shimano, SRAM, SunRace etc use.

As the chinese say, 'Looks just like a product. Cheap too.'

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Friday, April 29, 2022 at 10:30:09 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 4/29/2022 10:15 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 5:59:05 PM UTC-4, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 9:51:42 PM UTC+2, deaco...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>> I am trying to find an 11-28 or 12-30 10 spd Shimano cassette. I can buy a new ultegra for $80 with tax and shipping. I am cheap I keep looking ebay and facebood hoping someone has one to get rid of that is not bad. I don't spend huge money maybe less than $50. Cannot find. Weird I would think 10 spd is gone and someone has one sitting around not in use. But can I find one?
> >>> Deacon mark
> >> Life is too short to be cheap. With your mileage a 30 dollar difference is even beyond peanuts.
> >>
> >> Lou
> > +1
> Everyone's got their own preferences, but I'd not be too general in
> saying that particular $30 shouldn't matter.
>
> If that particular $30 doesn't matter, should the next $30 increase also
> not matter? And the one after that? Using mathematical induction, it
> seems you'd soon be justifying paying $1000 for ten cogs.
>
> https://www.mathsisfun.com/algebra/mathematical-induction.html
>
> I prefer to think in terms of benefits vs. detriments. Certainly, not
> having a cassette is a big detriment. $80 to fix that may be reasonable.
> $50 may be more reasonable, depending how many hours it takes to find
> one at that price.
>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski

Geezz, the deacon gets 20000 miles out of a cassette. You be an idiot with that mileage to go through the trouble searching for a used cassette from a unknown seller that is 30 dollar less than a new OEM one. YMMV and yours probably will.

Lou

On Friday, April 29, 2022 at 11:25:34 PM UTC+2, AMuzi wrote:
> On 4/29/2022 3:22 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 4/29/2022 3:15 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 4/29/2022 9:15 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >>> On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 3:51:42 PM UTC-4,
> >>> deaco...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>> I am trying to find an 11-28 or 12-30 10 spd Shimano
> >>>> cassette. I can buy a new ultegra for $80 with tax and
> >>>> shipping. I am cheap I keep looking ebay and facebood
> >>>> hoping someone has one to get rid of that is not bad. I
> >>>> don't spend huge money maybe less than $50. Cannot find.
> >>>> Weird I would think 10 spd is gone and someone has one
> >>>> sitting around not in use. But can I find one?
> >>>> Deacon mark
> >>>
> >>> Â I made the mistake of buying a casette off ebay from a
> >>> private seller once. I barely made it out of my driveway
> >>> when the damn thing started skipping. Never ever buy a
> >>> used cassette/freewheel unless you've actually ridden the
> >>> wheel it came off of.
> >>>
> >>
> >> New ones have a different set of failure modes now:
> >> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/failcscn.jpg
> >>
> >> because... china!
> >
> > Wow. Any word on how that failure happened? It seems really
> > weird.
> >
> >
> Cracks all through the low gear sprocket support webs.
> Didn't look at the other sprockets. Whatever it is it looks
> a lot like steel, and it responds to a magnet, but it's not
> whatever material Shimano, SRAM, SunRace etc use.
>
> As the chinese say, 'Looks just like a product. Cheap too.'
> --
Don’t start me on Chinese steel. When they can cut corners they will.

Lou

On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 16:25:29 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 4/29/2022 3:22 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 4/29/2022 3:15 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 4/29/2022 9:15 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>> On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 3:51:42 PM UTC-4,
>>>> deaco...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>> I am trying to find an 11-28 or 12-30 10 spd Shimano
>>>>> cassette. I can buy a new ultegra for $80 with tax and
>>>>> shipping. I am cheap I keep looking ebay and facebood
>>>>> hoping someone has one to get rid of that is not bad. I
>>>>> don't spend huge money maybe less than $50. Cannot find.
>>>>> Weird I would think 10 spd is gone and someone has one
>>>>> sitting around not in use. But can I find one?
>>>>> Deacon mark
>>>>
>>>> Â I made the mistake of buying a casette off ebay from a
>>>> private seller once. I barely made it out of my driveway
>>>> when the damn thing started skipping. Never ever buy a
>>>> used cassette/freewheel unless you've actually ridden the
>>>> wheel it came off of.
>>>>
>>>
>>> New ones have a different set of failure modes now:
>>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/failcscn.jpg
>>>
>>> because... china!
>>
>> Wow. Any word on how that failure happened? It seems really
>> weird.
>>
>>
>Cracks all through the low gear sprocket support webs.
>Didn't look at the other sprockets. Whatever it is it looks
>a lot like steel, and it responds to a magnet, but it's not
>whatever material Shimano, SRAM, SunRace etc use.
>
>As the chinese say, 'Looks just like a product. Cheap too.'

You want cheap? We give you cheap? You want quality? Costs more.

And from looking at Alibaba there is definitely a market for "cheap".
--
Cheers,

John B.

AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> On 4/29/2022 3:22 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 4/29/2022 3:15 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 4/29/2022 9:15 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>> On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 3:51:42 PM UTC-4,
>>>> deaco...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>> I am trying to find an 11-28 or 12-30 10 spd Shimano
>>>>> cassette. I can buy a new ultegra for $80 with tax and
>>>>> shipping. I am cheap I keep looking ebay and facebood
>>>>> hoping someone has one to get rid of that is not bad. I
>>>>> don't spend huge money maybe less than $50. Cannot find.
>>>>> Weird I would think 10 spd is gone and someone has one
>>>>> sitting around not in use. But can I find one?
>>>>> Deacon mark
>>>>
>>>> Â I made the mistake of buying a casette off ebay from a
>>>> private seller once. I barely made it out of my driveway
>>>> when the damn thing started skipping. Never ever buy a
>>>> used cassette/freewheel unless you've actually ridden the
>>>> wheel it came off of.
>>>>
>>>
>>> New ones have a different set of failure modes now:
>>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/failcscn.jpg
>>>
>>> because... china!
>>
>> Wow. Any word on how that failure happened? It seems really
>> weird.
>>
>>
> Cracks all through the low gear sprocket support webs.
> Didn't look at the other sprockets. Whatever it is it looks
> a lot like steel, and it responds to a magnet, but it's not
> whatever material Shimano, SRAM, SunRace etc use.
>
> As the chinese say, 'Looks just like a product. Cheap too.'
>

Chinese manufacturers are quite happy to deliver any quality level you are
willing to pay for AND CONTINUOUSLY VERIFY. It’s the last bit that catches
people.

On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 23:43:30 -0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone
<ralph@invalid.com> wrote:

>AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> On 4/29/2022 3:22 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 4/29/2022 3:15 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 4/29/2022 9:15 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>>> On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 3:51:42 PM UTC-4,
>>>>> deaco...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>> I am trying to find an 11-28 or 12-30 10 spd Shimano
>>>>>> cassette. I can buy a new ultegra for $80 with tax and
>>>>>> shipping. I am cheap I keep looking ebay and facebood
>>>>>> hoping someone has one to get rid of that is not bad. I
>>>>>> don't spend huge money maybe less than $50. Cannot find.
>>>>>> Weird I would think 10 spd is gone and someone has one
>>>>>> sitting around not in use. But can I find one?
>>>>>> Deacon mark
>>>>>
>>>>> Â I made the mistake of buying a casette off ebay from a
>>>>> private seller once. I barely made it out of my driveway
>>>>> when the damn thing started skipping. Never ever buy a
>>>>> used cassette/freewheel unless you've actually ridden the
>>>>> wheel it came off of.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> New ones have a different set of failure modes now:
>>>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/failcscn.jpg
>>>>
>>>> because... china!
>>>
>>> Wow. Any word on how that failure happened? It seems really
>>> weird.
>>>
>>>
>> Cracks all through the low gear sprocket support webs.
>> Didn't look at the other sprockets. Whatever it is it looks
>> a lot like steel, and it responds to a magnet, but it's not
>> whatever material Shimano, SRAM, SunRace etc use.
>>
>> As the chinese say, 'Looks just like a product. Cheap too.'
>>
>
>Chinese manufacturers are quite happy to deliver any quality level you are
>willing to pay for AND CONTINUOUSLY VERIFY. It’s the last bit that catches
>people.

Some years ago I was thinking of re-engineing a boat and someone
suggested Cummins, made in China engines, as they were much cheaper
then a Caterpillar engine. So I went to Cummins and "Yup! We can sell
you an engine. Cheap!" But I, being a clever sort, sneakily asked,
"Well, what about a guarantee" and was told that the guarantee was the
same as their engines made in the U.S.

The secret is, of course, that the Cummins factory, in China is, or
was in those days, managed by Cummins people from the U.S.

Which, by the way, is no different from the Caterpillar factory in
Indonesia or even U.S. factories in Japan, back in the early days.

Shimano, by the way, has at least two major factories in China making
bicycle parts (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 4/29/2022 7:45 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 23:43:30 -0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone
> <ralph@invalid.com> wrote:
>
>> AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>> On 4/29/2022 3:22 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 4/29/2022 3:15 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>> On 4/29/2022 9:15 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 3:51:42 PM UTC-4,
>>>>>> deaco...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>> I am trying to find an 11-28 or 12-30 10 spd Shimano
>>>>>>> cassette. I can buy a new ultegra for $80 with tax and
>>>>>>> shipping. I am cheap I keep looking ebay and facebood
>>>>>>> hoping someone has one to get rid of that is not bad. I
>>>>>>> don't spend huge money maybe less than $50. Cannot find.
>>>>>>> Weird I would think 10 spd is gone and someone has one
>>>>>>> sitting around not in use. But can I find one?
>>>>>>> Deacon mark
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Â I made the mistake of buying a casette off ebay from a
>>>>>> private seller once. I barely made it out of my driveway
>>>>>> when the damn thing started skipping. Never ever buy a
>>>>>> used cassette/freewheel unless you've actually ridden the
>>>>>> wheel it came off of.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> New ones have a different set of failure modes now:
>>>>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/failcscn.jpg
>>>>>
>>>>> because... china!
>>>>
>>>> Wow. Any word on how that failure happened? It seems really
>>>> weird.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Cracks all through the low gear sprocket support webs.
>>> Didn't look at the other sprockets. Whatever it is it looks
>>> a lot like steel, and it responds to a magnet, but it's not
>>> whatever material Shimano, SRAM, SunRace etc use.
>>>
>>> As the chinese say, 'Looks just like a product. Cheap too.'
>>>
>>
>> Chinese manufacturers are quite happy to deliver any quality level you are
>> willing to pay for AND CONTINUOUSLY VERIFY. It’s the last bit that catches
>> people.
>
> Some years ago I was thinking of re-engineing a boat and someone
> suggested Cummins, made in China engines, as they were much cheaper
> then a Caterpillar engine. So I went to Cummins and "Yup! We can sell
> you an engine. Cheap!" But I, being a clever sort, sneakily asked,
> "Well, what about a guarantee" and was told that the guarantee was the
> same as their engines made in the U.S.
>
> The secret is, of course, that the Cummins factory, in China is, or
> was in those days, managed by Cummins people from the U.S.
>
> Which, by the way, is no different from the Caterpillar factory in
> Indonesia or even U.S. factories in Japan, back in the early days.
>
> Shimano, by the way, has at least two major factories in China making
> bicycle parts (:-)
>

TO be clear the failed cassette in my link is not a Shimano
product.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Friday, April 29, 2022 at 2:25:34 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 4/29/2022 3:22 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 4/29/2022 3:15 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 4/29/2022 9:15 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >>> On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 3:51:42 PM UTC-4,
> >>> deaco...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>> I am trying to find an 11-28 or 12-30 10 spd Shimano
> >>>> cassette. I can buy a new ultegra for $80 with tax and
> >>>> shipping. I am cheap I keep looking ebay and facebood
> >>>> hoping someone has one to get rid of that is not bad. I
> >>>> don't spend huge money maybe less than $50. Cannot find.
> >>>> Weird I would think 10 spd is gone and someone has one
> >>>> sitting around not in use. But can I find one?
> >>>> Deacon mark
> >>>
> >>> Â I made the mistake of buying a casette off ebay from a
> >>> private seller once. I barely made it out of my driveway
> >>> when the damn thing started skipping. Never ever buy a
> >>> used cassette/freewheel unless you've actually ridden the
> >>> wheel it came off of.
> >>>
> >>
> >> New ones have a different set of failure modes now:
> >> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/failcscn.jpg
> >>
> >> because... china!
> >
> > Wow. Any word on how that failure happened? It seems really
> > weird.
> >
> >
> Cracks all through the low gear sprocket support webs.
> Didn't look at the other sprockets. Whatever it is it looks
> a lot like steel, and it responds to a magnet, but it's not
> whatever material Shimano, SRAM, SunRace etc use.
>
> As the chinese say, 'Looks just like a product. Cheap too.'

I have over 500 miles on these super-light cassettes without a problem. But because they are a stack of cogs riveted together onto an aluminum frame I suppose if it is cracked at one of the rivets it could do that. Initial inspection of the larger gears which get higher leverage against them is probably warranted, The highest two gears are separate just like Shimano. Look at that stupid mechanism that SRAM is using now and you could easily find fault with that as well.

On Friday, April 29, 2022 at 8:10:36 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 4/29/2022 7:45 PM, John B. wrote:
> > On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 23:43:30 -0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone
> > <ra...@invalid.com> wrote:
> >
> >> AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >>> On 4/29/2022 3:22 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>> On 4/29/2022 3:15 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>> On 4/29/2022 9:15 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >>>>>> On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 3:51:42 PM UTC-4,
> >>>>>> deaco...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>>>> I am trying to find an 11-28 or 12-30 10 spd Shimano
> >>>>>>> cassette. I can buy a new ultegra for $80 with tax and
> >>>>>>> shipping. I am cheap I keep looking ebay and facebood
> >>>>>>> hoping someone has one to get rid of that is not bad. I
> >>>>>>> don't spend huge money maybe less than $50. Cannot find.
> >>>>>>> Weird I would think 10 spd is gone and someone has one
> >>>>>>> sitting around not in use. But can I find one?
> >>>>>>> Deacon mark
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Â I made the mistake of buying a casette off ebay from a
> >>>>>> private seller once. I barely made it out of my driveway
> >>>>>> when the damn thing started skipping. Never ever buy a
> >>>>>> used cassette/freewheel unless you've actually ridden the
> >>>>>> wheel it came off of.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> New ones have a different set of failure modes now:
> >>>>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/failcscn.jpg
> >>>>>
> >>>>> because... china!
> >>>>
> >>>> Wow. Any word on how that failure happened? It seems really
> >>>> weird.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> Cracks all through the low gear sprocket support webs.
> >>> Didn't look at the other sprockets. Whatever it is it looks
> >>> a lot like steel, and it responds to a magnet, but it's not
> >>> whatever material Shimano, SRAM, SunRace etc use.
> >>>
> >>> As the chinese say, 'Looks just like a product. Cheap too.'
> >>>
> >>
> >> Chinese manufacturers are quite happy to deliver any quality level you are
> >> willing to pay for AND CONTINUOUSLY VERIFY. It’s the last bit that catches
> >> people.
> >
> > Some years ago I was thinking of re-engineing a boat and someone
> > suggested Cummins, made in China engines, as they were much cheaper
> > then a Caterpillar engine. So I went to Cummins and "Yup! We can sell
> > you an engine. Cheap!" But I, being a clever sort, sneakily asked,
> > "Well, what about a guarantee" and was told that the guarantee was the
> > same as their engines made in the U.S.
> >
> > The secret is, of course, that the Cummins factory, in China is, or
> > was in those days, managed by Cummins people from the U.S.
> >
> > Which, by the way, is no different from the Caterpillar factory in
> > Indonesia or even U.S. factories in Japan, back in the early days.
> >
> > Shimano, by the way, has at least two major factories in China making
> > bicycle parts (:-)
> >
> TO be clear the failed cassette in my link is not a Shimano
> product.

I think that we can all agree that Shimano and Campagnolo deliver superior products with high quality control. But when you want light weight for a reasonable price, close inspection isn't too high a price to pay. A Super Record cassette costs over 10 times as much as that set I showed.

On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 5:09:11 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Friday, April 29, 2022 at 8:10:36 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > On 4/29/2022 7:45 PM, John B. wrote:
> > > On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 23:43:30 -0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone
> > > <ra...@invalid.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >> AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> > >>> On 4/29/2022 3:22 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > >>>> On 4/29/2022 3:15 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> > >>>>> On 4/29/2022 9:15 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > >>>>>> On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 3:51:42 PM UTC-4,
> > >>>>>> deaco...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >>>>>>> I am trying to find an 11-28 or 12-30 10 spd Shimano
> > >>>>>>> cassette. I can buy a new ultegra for $80 with tax and
> > >>>>>>> shipping. I am cheap I keep looking ebay and facebood
> > >>>>>>> hoping someone has one to get rid of that is not bad. I
> > >>>>>>> don't spend huge money maybe less than $50. Cannot find.
> > >>>>>>> Weird I would think 10 spd is gone and someone has one
> > >>>>>>> sitting around not in use. But can I find one?
> > >>>>>>> Deacon mark
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Â I made the mistake of buying a casette off ebay from a
> > >>>>>> private seller once. I barely made it out of my driveway
> > >>>>>> when the damn thing started skipping. Never ever buy a
> > >>>>>> used cassette/freewheel unless you've actually ridden the
> > >>>>>> wheel it came off of.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> New ones have a different set of failure modes now:
> > >>>>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/failcscn.jpg
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> because... china!
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Wow. Any word on how that failure happened? It seems really
> > >>>> weird.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>> Cracks all through the low gear sprocket support webs.
> > >>> Didn't look at the other sprockets. Whatever it is it looks
> > >>> a lot like steel, and it responds to a magnet, but it's not
> > >>> whatever material Shimano, SRAM, SunRace etc use.
> > >>>
> > >>> As the chinese say, 'Looks just like a product. Cheap too.'
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >> Chinese manufacturers are quite happy to deliver any quality level you are
> > >> willing to pay for AND CONTINUOUSLY VERIFY. It’s the last bit that catches
> > >> people.
> > >
> > > Some years ago I was thinking of re-engineing a boat and someone
> > > suggested Cummins, made in China engines, as they were much cheaper
> > > then a Caterpillar engine. So I went to Cummins and "Yup! We can sell
> > > you an engine. Cheap!" But I, being a clever sort, sneakily asked,
> > > "Well, what about a guarantee" and was told that the guarantee was the
> > > same as their engines made in the U.S.
> > >
> > > The secret is, of course, that the Cummins factory, in China is, or
> > > was in those days, managed by Cummins people from the U.S.
> > >
> > > Which, by the way, is no different from the Caterpillar factory in
> > > Indonesia or even U.S. factories in Japan, back in the early days.
> > >
> > > Shimano, by the way, has at least two major factories in China making
> > > bicycle parts (:-)
> > >
> > TO be clear the failed cassette in my link is not a Shimano
> > product.
> I think that we can all agree that Shimano and Campagnolo deliver superior products with high quality control. But when you want light weight for a reasonable price, close inspection isn't too high a price to pay. A Super Record cassette costs over 10 times as much as that set I showed.

Strange trying to save about 100 gr max on a wear item.

Lou

On 5/4/2022 10:51 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 5:09:11 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> On Friday, April 29, 2022 at 8:10:36 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 4/29/2022 7:45 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 23:43:30 -0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone
>>>> <ra...@invalid.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>> On 4/29/2022 3:22 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>> On 4/29/2022 3:15 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 4/29/2022 9:15 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 3:51:42 PM UTC-4,
>>>>>>>>> deaco...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> I am trying to find an 11-28 or 12-30 10 spd Shimano
>>>>>>>>>> cassette. I can buy a new ultegra for $80 with tax and
>>>>>>>>>> shipping. I am cheap I keep looking ebay and facebood
>>>>>>>>>> hoping someone has one to get rid of that is not bad. I
>>>>>>>>>> don't spend huge money maybe less than $50. Cannot find.
>>>>>>>>>> Weird I would think 10 spd is gone and someone has one
>>>>>>>>>> sitting around not in use. But can I find one?
>>>>>>>>>> Deacon mark
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Â I made the mistake of buying a casette off ebay from a
>>>>>>>>> private seller once. I barely made it out of my driveway
>>>>>>>>> when the damn thing started skipping. Never ever buy a
>>>>>>>>> used cassette/freewheel unless you've actually ridden the
>>>>>>>>> wheel it came off of.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> New ones have a different set of failure modes now:
>>>>>>>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/failcscn.jpg
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> because... china!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Wow. Any word on how that failure happened? It seems really
>>>>>>> weird.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cracks all through the low gear sprocket support webs.
>>>>>> Didn't look at the other sprockets. Whatever it is it looks
>>>>>> a lot like steel, and it responds to a magnet, but it's not
>>>>>> whatever material Shimano, SRAM, SunRace etc use.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As the chinese say, 'Looks just like a product. Cheap too.'
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Chinese manufacturers are quite happy to deliver any quality level you are
>>>>> willing to pay for AND CONTINUOUSLY VERIFY. It’s the last bit that catches
>>>>> people.
>>>>
>>>> Some years ago I was thinking of re-engineing a boat and someone
>>>> suggested Cummins, made in China engines, as they were much cheaper
>>>> then a Caterpillar engine. So I went to Cummins and "Yup! We can sell
>>>> you an engine. Cheap!" But I, being a clever sort, sneakily asked,
>>>> "Well, what about a guarantee" and was told that the guarantee was the
>>>> same as their engines made in the U.S.
>>>>
>>>> The secret is, of course, that the Cummins factory, in China is, or
>>>> was in those days, managed by Cummins people from the U.S.
>>>>
>>>> Which, by the way, is no different from the Caterpillar factory in
>>>> Indonesia or even U.S. factories in Japan, back in the early days.
>>>>
>>>> Shimano, by the way, has at least two major factories in China making
>>>> bicycle parts (:-)
>>>>
>>> TO be clear the failed cassette in my link is not a Shimano
>>> product.
>> I think that we can all agree that Shimano and Campagnolo deliver superior products with high quality control. But when you want light weight for a reasonable price, close inspection isn't too high a price to pay. A Super Record cassette costs over 10 times as much as that set I showed.
>
>
> Strange trying to save about 100 gr max on a wear item.
>
> Lou
>

+1
Or, in the photo above, save $30 on unknown chinese
material. Standard cassettes enjoy many iterations and much
engineering attention. Substandard or 'super duper' can have
diminishing returns.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 8:51:07 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 5:09:11 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Friday, April 29, 2022 at 8:10:36 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > > On 4/29/2022 7:45 PM, John B. wrote:
> > > > On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 23:43:30 -0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone
> > > > <ra...@invalid.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> > > >>> On 4/29/2022 3:22 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > >>>> On 4/29/2022 3:15 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> > > >>>>> On 4/29/2022 9:15 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > >>>>>> On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 3:51:42 PM UTC-4,
> > > >>>>>> deaco...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > >>>>>>> I am trying to find an 11-28 or 12-30 10 spd Shimano
> > > >>>>>>> cassette. I can buy a new ultegra for $80 with tax and
> > > >>>>>>> shipping. I am cheap I keep looking ebay and facebood
> > > >>>>>>> hoping someone has one to get rid of that is not bad. I
> > > >>>>>>> don't spend huge money maybe less than $50. Cannot find.
> > > >>>>>>> Weird I would think 10 spd is gone and someone has one
> > > >>>>>>> sitting around not in use. But can I find one?
> > > >>>>>>> Deacon mark
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Â I made the mistake of buying a casette off ebay from a
> > > >>>>>> private seller once. I barely made it out of my driveway
> > > >>>>>> when the damn thing started skipping. Never ever buy a
> > > >>>>>> used cassette/freewheel unless you've actually ridden the
> > > >>>>>> wheel it came off of.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> New ones have a different set of failure modes now:
> > > >>>>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/failcscn.jpg
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> because... china!
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Wow. Any word on how that failure happened? It seems really
> > > >>>> weird.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>> Cracks all through the low gear sprocket support webs.
> > > >>> Didn't look at the other sprockets. Whatever it is it looks
> > > >>> a lot like steel, and it responds to a magnet, but it's not
> > > >>> whatever material Shimano, SRAM, SunRace etc use.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> As the chinese say, 'Looks just like a product. Cheap too.'
> > > >>>
> > > >>
> > > >> Chinese manufacturers are quite happy to deliver any quality level you are
> > > >> willing to pay for AND CONTINUOUSLY VERIFY. It’s the last bit that catches
> > > >> people.
> > > >
> > > > Some years ago I was thinking of re-engineing a boat and someone
> > > > suggested Cummins, made in China engines, as they were much cheaper
> > > > then a Caterpillar engine. So I went to Cummins and "Yup! We can sell
> > > > you an engine. Cheap!" But I, being a clever sort, sneakily asked,
> > > > "Well, what about a guarantee" and was told that the guarantee was the
> > > > same as their engines made in the U.S.
> > > >
> > > > The secret is, of course, that the Cummins factory, in China is, or
> > > > was in those days, managed by Cummins people from the U.S.
> > > >
> > > > Which, by the way, is no different from the Caterpillar factory in
> > > > Indonesia or even U.S. factories in Japan, back in the early days.
> > > >
> > > > Shimano, by the way, has at least two major factories in China making
> > > > bicycle parts (:-)
> > > >
> > > TO be clear the failed cassette in my link is not a Shimano
> > > product.
> > I think that we can all agree that Shimano and Campagnolo deliver superior products with high quality control. But when you want light weight for a reasonable price, close inspection isn't too high a price to pay. A Super Record cassette costs over 10 times as much as that set I showed.
> Strange trying to save about 100 gr max on a wear item.
>
> Lou
Well, I sort of agree with you. It is almost 300 grams difference and I get the same life out of the lightweight cassette as out of a Campy Record. Why buy a heavier Record that costs 10 ties as much?

On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 9:42:45 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 5/4/2022 10:51 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 5:09:11 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >> On Friday, April 29, 2022 at 8:10:36 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >>> On 4/29/2022 7:45 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>>> On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 23:43:30 -0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone
> >>>> <ra...@invalid.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >>>>>> On 4/29/2022 3:22 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>>>>> On 4/29/2022 3:15 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On 4/29/2022 9:15 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 3:51:42 PM UTC-4,
> >>>>>>>>> deaco...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> I am trying to find an 11-28 or 12-30 10 spd Shimano
> >>>>>>>>>> cassette. I can buy a new ultegra for $80 with tax and
> >>>>>>>>>> shipping. I am cheap I keep looking ebay and facebood
> >>>>>>>>>> hoping someone has one to get rid of that is not bad. I
> >>>>>>>>>> don't spend huge money maybe less than $50. Cannot find.
> >>>>>>>>>> Weird I would think 10 spd is gone and someone has one
> >>>>>>>>>> sitting around not in use. But can I find one?
> >>>>>>>>>> Deacon mark
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Â I made the mistake of buying a casette off ebay from a
> >>>>>>>>> private seller once. I barely made it out of my driveway
> >>>>>>>>> when the damn thing started skipping. Never ever buy a
> >>>>>>>>> used cassette/freewheel unless you've actually ridden the
> >>>>>>>>> wheel it came off of.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> New ones have a different set of failure modes now:
> >>>>>>>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/failcscn.jpg
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> because... china!
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Wow. Any word on how that failure happened? It seems really
> >>>>>>> weird.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> Cracks all through the low gear sprocket support webs.
> >>>>>> Didn't look at the other sprockets. Whatever it is it looks
> >>>>>> a lot like steel, and it responds to a magnet, but it's not
> >>>>>> whatever material Shimano, SRAM, SunRace etc use.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> As the chinese say, 'Looks just like a product. Cheap too.'
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Chinese manufacturers are quite happy to deliver any quality level you are
> >>>>> willing to pay for AND CONTINUOUSLY VERIFY. It’s the last bit that catches
> >>>>> people.
> >>>>
> >>>> Some years ago I was thinking of re-engineing a boat and someone
> >>>> suggested Cummins, made in China engines, as they were much cheaper
> >>>> then a Caterpillar engine. So I went to Cummins and "Yup! We can sell
> >>>> you an engine. Cheap!" But I, being a clever sort, sneakily asked,
> >>>> "Well, what about a guarantee" and was told that the guarantee was the
> >>>> same as their engines made in the U.S.
> >>>>
> >>>> The secret is, of course, that the Cummins factory, in China is, or
> >>>> was in those days, managed by Cummins people from the U.S.
> >>>>
> >>>> Which, by the way, is no different from the Caterpillar factory in
> >>>> Indonesia or even U.S. factories in Japan, back in the early days.
> >>>>
> >>>> Shimano, by the way, has at least two major factories in China making
> >>>> bicycle parts (:-)
> >>>>
> >>> TO be clear the failed cassette in my link is not a Shimano
> >>> product.
> >> I think that we can all agree that Shimano and Campagnolo deliver superior products with high quality control. But when you want light weight for a reasonable price, close inspection isn't too high a price to pay. A Super Record cassette costs over 10 times as much as that set I showed.
> >
> >
> > Strange trying to save about 100 gr max on a wear item.
> >
> > Lou
> >
> +1
> Or, in the photo above, save $30 on unknown chinese
> material. Standard cassettes enjoy many iterations and much
> engineering attention. Substandard or 'super duper' can have
> diminishing returns.

Well a Super Record cassette out of a shop is $600 in some places. So replacing it with a $30 Chinese version isn't exactly a bad choice given your one bad cassette vs. my 4 perfectly working versions. Now granted a Chorus cassette is about $150 but that is still a 5 times higher price. The early versions of the Chinese Campy cassettes did not work well and I made the choice of the Chorus, but now I can't really tell the difference.