On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 8:02:00 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 8:51:07 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 5:09:11 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > On Friday, April 29, 2022 at 8:10:36 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > > > On 4/29/2022 7:45 PM, John B. wrote:
> > > > > On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 23:43:30 -0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone
> > > > > <ra...@invalid.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> > > > >>> On 4/29/2022 3:22 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > > >>>> On 4/29/2022 3:15 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> > > > >>>>> On 4/29/2022 9:15 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > > >>>>>> On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 3:51:42 PM UTC-4,
> > > > >>>>>> deaco...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > >>>>>>> I am trying to find an 11-28 or 12-30 10 spd Shimano
> > > > >>>>>>> cassette. I can buy a new ultegra for $80 with tax and
> > > > >>>>>>> shipping. I am cheap I keep looking ebay and facebood
> > > > >>>>>>> hoping someone has one to get rid of that is not bad. I
> > > > >>>>>>> don't spend huge money maybe less than $50. Cannot find.
> > > > >>>>>>> Weird I would think 10 spd is gone and someone has one
> > > > >>>>>>> sitting around not in use. But can I find one?
> > > > >>>>>>> Deacon mark
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> Â I made the mistake of buying a casette off ebay from a
> > > > >>>>>> private seller once. I barely made it out of my driveway
> > > > >>>>>> when the damn thing started skipping. Never ever buy a
> > > > >>>>>> used cassette/freewheel unless you've actually ridden the
> > > > >>>>>> wheel it came off of.
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> New ones have a different set of failure modes now:
> > > > >>>>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/failcscn.jpg
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> because... china!
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> Wow. Any word on how that failure happened? It seems really
> > > > >>>> weird.
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>> Cracks all through the low gear sprocket support webs.
> > > > >>> Didn't look at the other sprockets. Whatever it is it looks
> > > > >>> a lot like steel, and it responds to a magnet, but it's not
> > > > >>> whatever material Shimano, SRAM, SunRace etc use.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> As the chinese say, 'Looks just like a product. Cheap too.'
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Chinese manufacturers are quite happy to deliver any quality level you are
> > > > >> willing to pay for AND CONTINUOUSLY VERIFY. It’s the last bit that catches
> > > > >> people.
> > > > >
> > > > > Some years ago I was thinking of re-engineing a boat and someone
> > > > > suggested Cummins, made in China engines, as they were much cheaper
> > > > > then a Caterpillar engine. So I went to Cummins and "Yup! We can sell
> > > > > you an engine. Cheap!" But I, being a clever sort, sneakily asked,
> > > > > "Well, what about a guarantee" and was told that the guarantee was the
> > > > > same as their engines made in the U.S.
> > > > >
> > > > > The secret is, of course, that the Cummins factory, in China is, or
> > > > > was in those days, managed by Cummins people from the U.S.
> > > > >
> > > > > Which, by the way, is no different from the Caterpillar factory in
> > > > > Indonesia or even U.S. factories in Japan, back in the early days..
> > > > >
> > > > > Shimano, by the way, has at least two major factories in China making
> > > > > bicycle parts (:-)
> > > > >
> > > > TO be clear the failed cassette in my link is not a Shimano
> > > > product.
> > > I think that we can all agree that Shimano and Campagnolo deliver superior products with high quality control. But when you want light weight for a reasonable price, close inspection isn't too high a price to pay. A Super Record cassette costs over 10 times as much as that set I showed.
> > Strange trying to save about 100 gr max on a wear item.
> >
> > Lou
> Well, I sort of agree with you. It is almost 300 grams difference and I get the same life out of the lightweight cassette as out of a Campy Record. Why buy a heavier Record that costs 10 ties as much?

300 grams difference? I don't believe that. Difference between Super Record 11 speed cassette and a 11 speed Chorus cassette is the fact that a Super Record cassette the largest three cogs are titanium. Titanium cluster 91 grams, steel cluster 141 gr; difference 50 grams. If the three largest cogs would be aluminum the different still would be less than 100 gr. I don't see all titanium cassettes (Campagnolo and Shimano) which would even be more stupid let alone aluminum.

Lou

On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 8:08:36 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 9:42:45 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > On 5/4/2022 10:51 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 5:09:11 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > >> On Friday, April 29, 2022 at 8:10:36 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > >>> On 4/29/2022 7:45 PM, John B. wrote:
> > >>>> On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 23:43:30 -0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone
> > >>>> <ra...@invalid.com> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> > >>>>>> On 4/29/2022 3:22 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > >>>>>>> On 4/29/2022 3:15 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> > >>>>>>>> On 4/29/2022 9:15 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>> On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 3:51:42 PM UTC-4,
> > >>>>>>>>> deaco...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>> I am trying to find an 11-28 or 12-30 10 spd Shimano
> > >>>>>>>>>> cassette. I can buy a new ultegra for $80 with tax and
> > >>>>>>>>>> shipping. I am cheap I keep looking ebay and facebood
> > >>>>>>>>>> hoping someone has one to get rid of that is not bad. I
> > >>>>>>>>>> don't spend huge money maybe less than $50. Cannot find.
> > >>>>>>>>>> Weird I would think 10 spd is gone and someone has one
> > >>>>>>>>>> sitting around not in use. But can I find one?
> > >>>>>>>>>> Deacon mark
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> Â I made the mistake of buying a casette off ebay from a
> > >>>>>>>>> private seller once. I barely made it out of my driveway
> > >>>>>>>>> when the damn thing started skipping. Never ever buy a
> > >>>>>>>>> used cassette/freewheel unless you've actually ridden the
> > >>>>>>>>> wheel it came off of.
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> New ones have a different set of failure modes now:
> > >>>>>>>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/failcscn.jpg
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> because... china!
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Wow. Any word on how that failure happened? It seems really
> > >>>>>>> weird.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Cracks all through the low gear sprocket support webs.
> > >>>>>> Didn't look at the other sprockets. Whatever it is it looks
> > >>>>>> a lot like steel, and it responds to a magnet, but it's not
> > >>>>>> whatever material Shimano, SRAM, SunRace etc use.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> As the chinese say, 'Looks just like a product. Cheap too.'
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Chinese manufacturers are quite happy to deliver any quality level you are
> > >>>>> willing to pay for AND CONTINUOUSLY VERIFY. It’s the last bit that catches
> > >>>>> people.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Some years ago I was thinking of re-engineing a boat and someone
> > >>>> suggested Cummins, made in China engines, as they were much cheaper
> > >>>> then a Caterpillar engine. So I went to Cummins and "Yup! We can sell
> > >>>> you an engine. Cheap!" But I, being a clever sort, sneakily asked,
> > >>>> "Well, what about a guarantee" and was told that the guarantee was the
> > >>>> same as their engines made in the U.S.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> The secret is, of course, that the Cummins factory, in China is, or
> > >>>> was in those days, managed by Cummins people from the U.S.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Which, by the way, is no different from the Caterpillar factory in
> > >>>> Indonesia or even U.S. factories in Japan, back in the early days.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Shimano, by the way, has at least two major factories in China making
> > >>>> bicycle parts (:-)
> > >>>>
> > >>> TO be clear the failed cassette in my link is not a Shimano
> > >>> product.
> > >> I think that we can all agree that Shimano and Campagnolo deliver superior products with high quality control. But when you want light weight for a reasonable price, close inspection isn't too high a price to pay. A Super Record cassette costs over 10 times as much as that set I showed.
> > >
> > >
> > > Strange trying to save about 100 gr max on a wear item.
> > >
> > > Lou
> > >
> > +1
> > Or, in the photo above, save $30 on unknown chinese
> > material. Standard cassettes enjoy many iterations and much
> > engineering attention. Substandard or 'super duper' can have
> > diminishing returns.
> Well a Super Record cassette out of a shop is $600 in some places. So replacing it with a $30 Chinese version isn't exactly a bad choice given your one bad cassette vs. my 4 perfectly working versions. Now granted a Chorus cassette is about $150 but that is still a 5 times higher price. The early versions of the Chinese Campy cassettes did not work well and I made the choice of the Chorus, but now I can't really tell the difference.

Pff;
https://www.bike-components.de/en/Campagnolo/Super-Record-12-speed-Cassette-p65023/

Lou

Lou Holtman <lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 8:02:00 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 8:51:07 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 5:09:11 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>> On Friday, April 29, 2022 at 8:10:36 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>> On 4/29/2022 7:45 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>> On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 23:43:30 -0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone
>>>>>> <ra...@invalid.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 4/29/2022 3:22 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 4/29/2022 3:15 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 4/29/2022 9:15 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 3:51:42 PM UTC-4,
>>>>>>>>>>> deaco...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> I am trying to find an 11-28 or 12-30 10 spd Shimano
>>>>>>>>>>>> cassette. I can buy a new ultegra for $80 with tax and
>>>>>>>>>>>> shipping. I am cheap I keep looking ebay and facebood
>>>>>>>>>>>> hoping someone has one to get rid of that is not bad. I
>>>>>>>>>>>> don't spend huge money maybe less than $50. Cannot find.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Weird I would think 10 spd is gone and someone has one
>>>>>>>>>>>> sitting around not in use. But can I find one?
>>>>>>>>>>>> Deacon mark
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Â I made the mistake of buying a casette off ebay from a
>>>>>>>>>>> private seller once. I barely made it out of my driveway
>>>>>>>>>>> when the damn thing started skipping. Never ever buy a
>>>>>>>>>>> used cassette/freewheel unless you've actually ridden the
>>>>>>>>>>> wheel it came off of.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> New ones have a different set of failure modes now:
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/failcscn.jpg
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> because... china!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Wow. Any word on how that failure happened? It seems really
>>>>>>>>> weird.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cracks all through the low gear sprocket support webs.
>>>>>>>> Didn't look at the other sprockets. Whatever it is it looks
>>>>>>>> a lot like steel, and it responds to a magnet, but it's not
>>>>>>>> whatever material Shimano, SRAM, SunRace etc use.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As the chinese say, 'Looks just like a product. Cheap too.'
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Chinese manufacturers are quite happy to deliver any quality level you are
>>>>>>> willing to pay for AND CONTINUOUSLY VERIFY. It’s the last bit that catches
>>>>>>> people.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Some years ago I was thinking of re-engineing a boat and someone
>>>>>> suggested Cummins, made in China engines, as they were much cheaper
>>>>>> then a Caterpillar engine. So I went to Cummins and "Yup! We can sell
>>>>>> you an engine. Cheap!" But I, being a clever sort, sneakily asked,
>>>>>> "Well, what about a guarantee" and was told that the guarantee was the
>>>>>> same as their engines made in the U.S.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The secret is, of course, that the Cummins factory, in China is, or
>>>>>> was in those days, managed by Cummins people from the U.S.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Which, by the way, is no different from the Caterpillar factory in
>>>>>> Indonesia or even U.S. factories in Japan, back in the early days.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Shimano, by the way, has at least two major factories in China making
>>>>>> bicycle parts (:-)
>>>>>>
>>>>> TO be clear the failed cassette in my link is not a Shimano
>>>>> product.
>>>> I think that we can all agree that Shimano and Campagnolo deliver
>>>> superior products with high quality control. But when you want light
>>>> weight for a reasonable price, close inspection isn't too high a price
>>>> to pay. A Super Record cassette costs over 10 times as much as that set I showed.
>>> Strange trying to save about 100 gr max on a wear item.
>>>
>>> Lou
>> Well, I sort of agree with you. It is almost 300 grams difference and I
>> get the same life out of the lightweight cassette as out of a Campy
>> Record. Why buy a heavier Record that costs 10 ties as much?
>
> 300 grams difference? I don't believe that. Difference between Super
> Record 11 speed cassette and a 11 speed Chorus cassette is the fact that
> a Super Record cassette the largest three cogs are titanium. Titanium
> cluster 91 grams, steel cluster 141 gr; difference 50 grams. If the three
> largest cogs would be aluminum the different still would be less than 100
> gr. I don't see all titanium cassettes (Campagnolo and Shimano) which
> would even be more stupid let alone aluminum.
>
> Lou
>
Looking at Shimano road stuff so 12speed Dura Ace vs Ultegra is £200 pounds
lighter wallet! Verse 100 grams saved.

I rather suspect no one will notice that 100g!

Roger Merriman

On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 10:40:25 PM UTC+2, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Lou Holtman <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 8:02:00 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >> On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 8:51:07 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> >>> On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 5:09:11 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>> On Friday, April 29, 2022 at 8:10:36 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>> On 4/29/2022 7:45 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>>>>> On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 23:43:30 -0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone
> >>>>>> <ra...@invalid.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On 4/29/2022 3:22 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On 4/29/2022 3:15 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> On 4/29/2022 9:15 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 3:51:42 PM UTC-4,
> >>>>>>>>>>> deaco...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I am trying to find an 11-28 or 12-30 10 spd Shimano
> >>>>>>>>>>>> cassette. I can buy a new ultegra for $80 with tax and
> >>>>>>>>>>>> shipping. I am cheap I keep looking ebay and facebood
> >>>>>>>>>>>> hoping someone has one to get rid of that is not bad. I
> >>>>>>>>>>>> don't spend huge money maybe less than $50. Cannot find.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Weird I would think 10 spd is gone and someone has one
> >>>>>>>>>>>> sitting around not in use. But can I find one?
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Deacon mark
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Â I made the mistake of buying a casette off ebay from a
> >>>>>>>>>>> private seller once. I barely made it out of my driveway
> >>>>>>>>>>> when the damn thing started skipping. Never ever buy a
> >>>>>>>>>>> used cassette/freewheel unless you've actually ridden the
> >>>>>>>>>>> wheel it came off of.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> New ones have a different set of failure modes now:
> >>>>>>>>>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/failcscn.jpg
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> because... china!
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Wow. Any word on how that failure happened? It seems really
> >>>>>>>>> weird.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Cracks all through the low gear sprocket support webs.
> >>>>>>>> Didn't look at the other sprockets. Whatever it is it looks
> >>>>>>>> a lot like steel, and it responds to a magnet, but it's not
> >>>>>>>> whatever material Shimano, SRAM, SunRace etc use.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> As the chinese say, 'Looks just like a product. Cheap too.'
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Chinese manufacturers are quite happy to deliver any quality level you are
> >>>>>>> willing to pay for AND CONTINUOUSLY VERIFY. It’s the last bit that catches
> >>>>>>> people.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Some years ago I was thinking of re-engineing a boat and someone
> >>>>>> suggested Cummins, made in China engines, as they were much cheaper
> >>>>>> then a Caterpillar engine. So I went to Cummins and "Yup! We can sell
> >>>>>> you an engine. Cheap!" But I, being a clever sort, sneakily asked,
> >>>>>> "Well, what about a guarantee" and was told that the guarantee was the
> >>>>>> same as their engines made in the U.S.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The secret is, of course, that the Cummins factory, in China is, or
> >>>>>> was in those days, managed by Cummins people from the U.S.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Which, by the way, is no different from the Caterpillar factory in
> >>>>>> Indonesia or even U.S. factories in Japan, back in the early days.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Shimano, by the way, has at least two major factories in China making
> >>>>>> bicycle parts (:-)
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> TO be clear the failed cassette in my link is not a Shimano
> >>>>> product.
> >>>> I think that we can all agree that Shimano and Campagnolo deliver
> >>>> superior products with high quality control. But when you want light
> >>>> weight for a reasonable price, close inspection isn't too high a price
> >>>> to pay. A Super Record cassette costs over 10 times as much as that set I showed.
> >>> Strange trying to save about 100 gr max on a wear item.
> >>>
> >>> Lou
> >> Well, I sort of agree with you. It is almost 300 grams difference and I
> >> get the same life out of the lightweight cassette as out of a Campy
> >> Record. Why buy a heavier Record that costs 10 ties as much?
> >
> > 300 grams difference? I don't believe that. Difference between Super
> > Record 11 speed cassette and a 11 speed Chorus cassette is the fact that
> > a Super Record cassette the largest three cogs are titanium. Titanium
> > cluster 91 grams, steel cluster 141 gr; difference 50 grams. If the three
> > largest cogs would be aluminum the different still would be less than 100
> > gr. I don't see all titanium cassettes (Campagnolo and Shimano) which
> > would even be more stupid let alone aluminum.
> >
> > Lou
> >
> Looking at Shimano road stuff so 12speed Dura Ace vs Ultegra is £200 pounds
> lighter wallet! Verse 100 grams saved.
>
> I rather suspect no one will notice that 100g!
>
> Roger Merriman

100 gr?
11-30 DA 12 sp = 223 gr and 350 euro
11-30 Ultegra 12 sp = 291 gr and 106 euro.

Ultegra or even 105 level for cassettes is a no brainer. If people want to save weight most people can save a 'lot' on saddles. Spend once and you are done.

Lou

Lou Holtman <lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 10:40:25 PM UTC+2, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Lou Holtman <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 8:02:00 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 8:51:07 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>> On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 5:09:11 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>> On Friday, April 29, 2022 at 8:10:36 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>> On 4/29/2022 7:45 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 23:43:30 -0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone
>>>>>>>> <ra...@invalid.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 4/29/2022 3:22 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/29/2022 3:15 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/29/2022 9:15 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 3:51:42 PM UTC-4,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> deaco...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am trying to find an 11-28 or 12-30 10 spd Shimano
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cassette. I can buy a new ultegra for $80 with tax and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> shipping. I am cheap I keep looking ebay and facebood
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hoping someone has one to get rid of that is not bad. I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't spend huge money maybe less than $50. Cannot find.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Weird I would think 10 spd is gone and someone has one
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sitting around not in use. But can I find one?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Deacon mark
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Â I made the mistake of buying a casette off ebay from a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> private seller once. I barely made it out of my driveway
>>>>>>>>>>>>> when the damn thing started skipping. Never ever buy a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> used cassette/freewheel unless you've actually ridden the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wheel it came off of.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> New ones have a different set of failure modes now:
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/failcscn.jpg
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> because... china!
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Wow. Any word on how that failure happened? It seems really
>>>>>>>>>>> weird.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Cracks all through the low gear sprocket support webs.
>>>>>>>>>> Didn't look at the other sprockets. Whatever it is it looks
>>>>>>>>>> a lot like steel, and it responds to a magnet, but it's not
>>>>>>>>>> whatever material Shimano, SRAM, SunRace etc use.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> As the chinese say, 'Looks just like a product. Cheap too.'
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Chinese manufacturers are quite happy to deliver any quality level you are
>>>>>>>>> willing to pay for AND CONTINUOUSLY VERIFY. It’s the last bit that catches
>>>>>>>>> people.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Some years ago I was thinking of re-engineing a boat and someone
>>>>>>>> suggested Cummins, made in China engines, as they were much cheaper
>>>>>>>> then a Caterpillar engine. So I went to Cummins and "Yup! We can sell
>>>>>>>> you an engine. Cheap!" But I, being a clever sort, sneakily asked,
>>>>>>>> "Well, what about a guarantee" and was told that the guarantee was the
>>>>>>>> same as their engines made in the U.S.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The secret is, of course, that the Cummins factory, in China is, or
>>>>>>>> was in those days, managed by Cummins people from the U.S.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Which, by the way, is no different from the Caterpillar factory in
>>>>>>>> Indonesia or even U.S. factories in Japan, back in the early days.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Shimano, by the way, has at least two major factories in China making
>>>>>>>> bicycle parts (:-)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> TO be clear the failed cassette in my link is not a Shimano
>>>>>>> product.
>>>>>> I think that we can all agree that Shimano and Campagnolo deliver
>>>>>> superior products with high quality control. But when you want light
>>>>>> weight for a reasonable price, close inspection isn't too high a price
>>>>>> to pay. A Super Record cassette costs over 10 times as much as that set I showed.
>>>>> Strange trying to save about 100 gr max on a wear item.
>>>>>
>>>>> Lou
>>>> Well, I sort of agree with you. It is almost 300 grams difference and I
>>>> get the same life out of the lightweight cassette as out of a Campy
>>>> Record. Why buy a heavier Record that costs 10 ties as much?
>>>
>>> 300 grams difference? I don't believe that. Difference between Super
>>> Record 11 speed cassette and a 11 speed Chorus cassette is the fact that
>>> a Super Record cassette the largest three cogs are titanium. Titanium
>>> cluster 91 grams, steel cluster 141 gr; difference 50 grams. If the three
>>> largest cogs would be aluminum the different still would be less than 100
>>> gr. I don't see all titanium cassettes (Campagnolo and Shimano) which
>>> would even be more stupid let alone aluminum.
>>>
>>> Lou
>>>
>> Looking at Shimano road stuff so 12speed Dura Ace vs Ultegra is £200 pounds
>> lighter wallet! Verse 100 grams saved.
>>
>> I rather suspect no one will notice that 100g!
>>
>> Roger Merriman
>
> 100 gr?
> 11-30 DA 12 sp = 223 gr and 350 euro
> 11-30 Ultegra 12 sp = 291 gr and 106 euro.
>
> Ultegra or even 105 level for cassettes is a no brainer. If people want
> to save weight most people can save a 'lot' on saddles. Spend once and you are done.
>
> Lou
>

11-34 I looked at so 253g vs 345g as the cassette size grows the so does
the weight and the difference between premium and mundane, MTB cassette can
get close to 700g! But a XTR will shave that back to 367g.

I personally am still on 10s so things are still in stock and cheap!

Roger Merriman

On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 11:18:17 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 8:02:00 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 8:51:07 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 5:09:11 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > On Friday, April 29, 2022 at 8:10:36 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > > > > On 4/29/2022 7:45 PM, John B. wrote:
> > > > > > On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 23:43:30 -0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone
> > > > > > <ra...@invalid.com> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> > > > > >>> On 4/29/2022 3:22 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > > > >>>> On 4/29/2022 3:15 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> > > > > >>>>> On 4/29/2022 9:15 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > > > >>>>>> On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 3:51:42 PM UTC-4,
> > > > > >>>>>> deaco...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > >>>>>>> I am trying to find an 11-28 or 12-30 10 spd Shimano
> > > > > >>>>>>> cassette. I can buy a new ultegra for $80 with tax and
> > > > > >>>>>>> shipping. I am cheap I keep looking ebay and facebood
> > > > > >>>>>>> hoping someone has one to get rid of that is not bad. I
> > > > > >>>>>>> don't spend huge money maybe less than $50. Cannot find.
> > > > > >>>>>>> Weird I would think 10 spd is gone and someone has one
> > > > > >>>>>>> sitting around not in use. But can I find one?
> > > > > >>>>>>> Deacon mark
> > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>> Â I made the mistake of buying a casette off ebay from a
> > > > > >>>>>> private seller once. I barely made it out of my driveway
> > > > > >>>>>> when the damn thing started skipping. Never ever buy a
> > > > > >>>>>> used cassette/freewheel unless you've actually ridden the
> > > > > >>>>>> wheel it came off of.
> > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>> New ones have a different set of failure modes now:
> > > > > >>>>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/failcscn.jpg
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>> because... china!
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> Wow. Any word on how that failure happened? It seems really
> > > > > >>>> weird.
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> Cracks all through the low gear sprocket support webs.
> > > > > >>> Didn't look at the other sprockets. Whatever it is it looks
> > > > > >>> a lot like steel, and it responds to a magnet, but it's not
> > > > > >>> whatever material Shimano, SRAM, SunRace etc use.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> As the chinese say, 'Looks just like a product. Cheap too.'
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Chinese manufacturers are quite happy to deliver any quality level you are
> > > > > >> willing to pay for AND CONTINUOUSLY VERIFY. It’s the last bit that catches
> > > > > >> people.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Some years ago I was thinking of re-engineing a boat and someone
> > > > > > suggested Cummins, made in China engines, as they were much cheaper
> > > > > > then a Caterpillar engine. So I went to Cummins and "Yup! We can sell
> > > > > > you an engine. Cheap!" But I, being a clever sort, sneakily asked,
> > > > > > "Well, what about a guarantee" and was told that the guarantee was the
> > > > > > same as their engines made in the U.S.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The secret is, of course, that the Cummins factory, in China is, or
> > > > > > was in those days, managed by Cummins people from the U.S.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Which, by the way, is no different from the Caterpillar factory in
> > > > > > Indonesia or even U.S. factories in Japan, back in the early days.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Shimano, by the way, has at least two major factories in China making
> > > > > > bicycle parts (:-)
> > > > > >
> > > > > TO be clear the failed cassette in my link is not a Shimano
> > > > > product.
> > > > I think that we can all agree that Shimano and Campagnolo deliver superior products with high quality control. But when you want light weight for a reasonable price, close inspection isn't too high a price to pay. A Super Record cassette costs over 10 times as much as that set I showed.
> > > Strange trying to save about 100 gr max on a wear item.
> > >
> > > Lou
> > Well, I sort of agree with you. It is almost 300 grams difference and I get the same life out of the lightweight cassette as out of a Campy Record.. Why buy a heavier Record that costs 10 ties as much?
> 300 grams difference? I don't believe that. Difference between Super Record 11 speed cassette and a 11 speed Chorus cassette is the fact that a Super Record cassette the largest three cogs are titanium. Titanium cluster 91 grams, steel cluster 141 gr; difference 50 grams. If the three largest cogs would be aluminum the different still would be less than 100 gr. I don't see all titanium cassettes (Campagnolo and Shimano) which would even be more stupid let alone aluminum.
Well, I don't have a way of showing you a picture of my scale

On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 1:40:25 PM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Lou Holtman <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 8:02:00 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >> On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 8:51:07 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> >>> On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 5:09:11 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>> On Friday, April 29, 2022 at 8:10:36 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>> On 4/29/2022 7:45 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>>>>> On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 23:43:30 -0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone
> >>>>>> <ra...@invalid.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On 4/29/2022 3:22 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On 4/29/2022 3:15 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> On 4/29/2022 9:15 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 3:51:42 PM UTC-4,
> >>>>>>>>>>> deaco...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I am trying to find an 11-28 or 12-30 10 spd Shimano
> >>>>>>>>>>>> cassette. I can buy a new ultegra for $80 with tax and
> >>>>>>>>>>>> shipping. I am cheap I keep looking ebay and facebood
> >>>>>>>>>>>> hoping someone has one to get rid of that is not bad. I
> >>>>>>>>>>>> don't spend huge money maybe less than $50. Cannot find.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Weird I would think 10 spd is gone and someone has one
> >>>>>>>>>>>> sitting around not in use. But can I find one?
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Deacon mark
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Â I made the mistake of buying a casette off ebay from a
> >>>>>>>>>>> private seller once. I barely made it out of my driveway
> >>>>>>>>>>> when the damn thing started skipping. Never ever buy a
> >>>>>>>>>>> used cassette/freewheel unless you've actually ridden the
> >>>>>>>>>>> wheel it came off of.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> New ones have a different set of failure modes now:
> >>>>>>>>>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/failcscn.jpg
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> because... china!
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Wow. Any word on how that failure happened? It seems really
> >>>>>>>>> weird.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Cracks all through the low gear sprocket support webs.
> >>>>>>>> Didn't look at the other sprockets. Whatever it is it looks
> >>>>>>>> a lot like steel, and it responds to a magnet, but it's not
> >>>>>>>> whatever material Shimano, SRAM, SunRace etc use.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> As the chinese say, 'Looks just like a product. Cheap too.'
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Chinese manufacturers are quite happy to deliver any quality level you are
> >>>>>>> willing to pay for AND CONTINUOUSLY VERIFY. It’s the last bit that catches
> >>>>>>> people.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Some years ago I was thinking of re-engineing a boat and someone
> >>>>>> suggested Cummins, made in China engines, as they were much cheaper
> >>>>>> then a Caterpillar engine. So I went to Cummins and "Yup! We can sell
> >>>>>> you an engine. Cheap!" But I, being a clever sort, sneakily asked,
> >>>>>> "Well, what about a guarantee" and was told that the guarantee was the
> >>>>>> same as their engines made in the U.S.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The secret is, of course, that the Cummins factory, in China is, or
> >>>>>> was in those days, managed by Cummins people from the U.S.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Which, by the way, is no different from the Caterpillar factory in
> >>>>>> Indonesia or even U.S. factories in Japan, back in the early days.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Shimano, by the way, has at least two major factories in China making
> >>>>>> bicycle parts (:-)
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> TO be clear the failed cassette in my link is not a Shimano
> >>>>> product.
> >>>> I think that we can all agree that Shimano and Campagnolo deliver
> >>>> superior products with high quality control. But when you want light
> >>>> weight for a reasonable price, close inspection isn't too high a price
> >>>> to pay. A Super Record cassette costs over 10 times as much as that set I showed.
> >>> Strange trying to save about 100 gr max on a wear item.
> >>>
> >>> Lou
> >> Well, I sort of agree with you. It is almost 300 grams difference and I
> >> get the same life out of the lightweight cassette as out of a Campy
> >> Record. Why buy a heavier Record that costs 10 ties as much?
> >
> > 300 grams difference? I don't believe that. Difference between Super
> > Record 11 speed cassette and a 11 speed Chorus cassette is the fact that
> > a Super Record cassette the largest three cogs are titanium. Titanium
> > cluster 91 grams, steel cluster 141 gr; difference 50 grams. If the three
> > largest cogs would be aluminum the different still would be less than 100
> > gr. I don't see all titanium cassettes (Campagnolo and Shimano) which
> > would even be more stupid let alone aluminum.
> >
> > Lou
> >
> Looking at Shimano road stuff so 12speed Dura Ace vs Ultegra is £200 pounds
> lighter wallet! Verse 100 grams saved.
>
> I rather suspect no one will notice that 100g!

Oh, I agree with you Roger, but I'm not buying in for the weight savings but for the price. And the weight savings is simply a nice addition.

On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 11:45:26 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 11:18:17 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 8:02:00 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 8:51:07 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 5:09:11 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > > On Friday, April 29, 2022 at 8:10:36 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > > > > > On 4/29/2022 7:45 PM, John B. wrote:
> > > > > > > On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 23:43:30 -0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone
> > > > > > > <ra...@invalid.com> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >> AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> > > > > > >>> On 4/29/2022 3:22 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > > > > >>>> On 4/29/2022 3:15 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> > > > > > >>>>> On 4/29/2022 9:15 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > >>>>>> On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 3:51:42 PM UTC-4,
> > > > > > >>>>>> deaco...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > >>>>>>> I am trying to find an 11-28 or 12-30 10 spd Shimano
> > > > > > >>>>>>> cassette. I can buy a new ultegra for $80 with tax and
> > > > > > >>>>>>> shipping. I am cheap I keep looking ebay and facebood
> > > > > > >>>>>>> hoping someone has one to get rid of that is not bad. I
> > > > > > >>>>>>> don't spend huge money maybe less than $50. Cannot find..
> > > > > > >>>>>>> Weird I would think 10 spd is gone and someone has one
> > > > > > >>>>>>> sitting around not in use. But can I find one?
> > > > > > >>>>>>> Deacon mark
> > > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>> Â I made the mistake of buying a casette off ebay from a
> > > > > > >>>>>> private seller once. I barely made it out of my driveway
> > > > > > >>>>>> when the damn thing started skipping. Never ever buy a
> > > > > > >>>>>> used cassette/freewheel unless you've actually ridden the
> > > > > > >>>>>> wheel it came off of.
> > > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>> New ones have a different set of failure modes now:
> > > > > > >>>>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/failcscn.jpg
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>> because... china!
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>> Wow. Any word on how that failure happened? It seems really
> > > > > > >>>> weird.
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>> Cracks all through the low gear sprocket support webs.
> > > > > > >>> Didn't look at the other sprockets. Whatever it is it looks
> > > > > > >>> a lot like steel, and it responds to a magnet, but it's not
> > > > > > >>> whatever material Shimano, SRAM, SunRace etc use.
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> As the chinese say, 'Looks just like a product. Cheap too.'
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Chinese manufacturers are quite happy to deliver any quality level you are
> > > > > > >> willing to pay for AND CONTINUOUSLY VERIFY. It’s the last bit that catches
> > > > > > >> people.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Some years ago I was thinking of re-engineing a boat and someone
> > > > > > > suggested Cummins, made in China engines, as they were much cheaper
> > > > > > > then a Caterpillar engine. So I went to Cummins and "Yup! We can sell
> > > > > > > you an engine. Cheap!" But I, being a clever sort, sneakily asked,
> > > > > > > "Well, what about a guarantee" and was told that the guarantee was the
> > > > > > > same as their engines made in the U.S.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The secret is, of course, that the Cummins factory, in China is, or
> > > > > > > was in those days, managed by Cummins people from the U.S.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Which, by the way, is no different from the Caterpillar factory in
> > > > > > > Indonesia or even U.S. factories in Japan, back in the early days.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Shimano, by the way, has at least two major factories in China making
> > > > > > > bicycle parts (:-)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > TO be clear the failed cassette in my link is not a Shimano
> > > > > > product.
> > > > > I think that we can all agree that Shimano and Campagnolo deliver superior products with high quality control. But when you want light weight for a reasonable price, close inspection isn't too high a price to pay. A Super Record cassette costs over 10 times as much as that set I showed.
> > > > Strange trying to save about 100 gr max on a wear item.
> > > >
> > > > Lou
> > > Well, I sort of agree with you. It is almost 300 grams difference and I get the same life out of the lightweight cassette as out of a Campy Record. Why buy a heavier Record that costs 10 ties as much?
> > 300 grams difference? I don't believe that. Difference between Super Record 11 speed cassette and a 11 speed Chorus cassette is the fact that a Super Record cassette the largest three cogs are titanium. Titanium cluster 91 grams, steel cluster 141 gr; difference 50 grams. If the three largest cogs would be aluminum the different still would be less than 100 gr. I don't see all titanium cassettes (Campagnolo and Shimano) which would even be more stupid let alone aluminum.
> Well, I don't have a way of showing you a picture of my scale

Of course not. For reference a whole cassette weighs around or less than 300 gr. How can the difference be 300 grams? Using some of the Mickey Mouse units?

Lou

On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 11:18:17 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 8:02:00 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 8:51:07 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 5:09:11 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > On Friday, April 29, 2022 at 8:10:36 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > > > > On 4/29/2022 7:45 PM, John B. wrote:
> > > > > > On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 23:43:30 -0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone
> > > > > > <ra...@invalid.com> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> > > > > >>> On 4/29/2022 3:22 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > > > >>>> On 4/29/2022 3:15 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> > > > > >>>>> On 4/29/2022 9:15 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > > > >>>>>> On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 3:51:42 PM UTC-4,
> > > > > >>>>>> deaco...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > >>>>>>> I am trying to find an 11-28 or 12-30 10 spd Shimano
> > > > > >>>>>>> cassette. I can buy a new ultegra for $80 with tax and
> > > > > >>>>>>> shipping. I am cheap I keep looking ebay and facebood
> > > > > >>>>>>> hoping someone has one to get rid of that is not bad. I
> > > > > >>>>>>> don't spend huge money maybe less than $50. Cannot find.
> > > > > >>>>>>> Weird I would think 10 spd is gone and someone has one
> > > > > >>>>>>> sitting around not in use. But can I find one?
> > > > > >>>>>>> Deacon mark
> > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>> Â I made the mistake of buying a casette off ebay from a
> > > > > >>>>>> private seller once. I barely made it out of my driveway
> > > > > >>>>>> when the damn thing started skipping. Never ever buy a
> > > > > >>>>>> used cassette/freewheel unless you've actually ridden the
> > > > > >>>>>> wheel it came off of.
> > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>> New ones have a different set of failure modes now:
> > > > > >>>>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/failcscn.jpg
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>> because... china!
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> Wow. Any word on how that failure happened? It seems really
> > > > > >>>> weird.
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>> Cracks all through the low gear sprocket support webs.
> > > > > >>> Didn't look at the other sprockets. Whatever it is it looks
> > > > > >>> a lot like steel, and it responds to a magnet, but it's not
> > > > > >>> whatever material Shimano, SRAM, SunRace etc use.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> As the chinese say, 'Looks just like a product. Cheap too.'
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Chinese manufacturers are quite happy to deliver any quality level you are
> > > > > >> willing to pay for AND CONTINUOUSLY VERIFY. It’s the last bit that catches
> > > > > >> people.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Some years ago I was thinking of re-engineing a boat and someone
> > > > > > suggested Cummins, made in China engines, as they were much cheaper
> > > > > > then a Caterpillar engine. So I went to Cummins and "Yup! We can sell
> > > > > > you an engine. Cheap!" But I, being a clever sort, sneakily asked,
> > > > > > "Well, what about a guarantee" and was told that the guarantee was the
> > > > > > same as their engines made in the U.S.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The secret is, of course, that the Cummins factory, in China is, or
> > > > > > was in those days, managed by Cummins people from the U.S.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Which, by the way, is no different from the Caterpillar factory in
> > > > > > Indonesia or even U.S. factories in Japan, back in the early days.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Shimano, by the way, has at least two major factories in China making
> > > > > > bicycle parts (:-)
> > > > > >
> > > > > TO be clear the failed cassette in my link is not a Shimano
> > > > > product.
> > > > I think that we can all agree that Shimano and Campagnolo deliver superior products with high quality control. But when you want light weight for a reasonable price, close inspection isn't too high a price to pay. A Super Record cassette costs over 10 times as much as that set I showed.
> > > Strange trying to save about 100 gr max on a wear item.
> > >
> > > Lou
> > Well, I sort of agree with you. It is almost 300 grams difference and I get the same life out of the lightweight cassette as out of a Campy Record.. Why buy a heavier Record that costs 10 ties as much?
> 300 grams difference? I don't believe that. Difference between Super Record 11 speed cassette and a 11 speed Chorus cassette is the fact that a Super Record cassette the largest three cogs are titanium. Titanium cluster 91 grams, steel cluster 141 gr; difference 50 grams. If the three largest cogs would be aluminum the different still would be less than 100 gr. I don't see all titanium cassettes (Campagnolo and Shimano) which would even be more stupid let alone aluminum.

Perhaps you are misunderstanding me. I am comparing a $30 cassette with a Centaur and a Chorus that I have laying about. The Centaur 11 speed with cap is 900 grams! So the 300 gram $32 ultralight simply makes that look silly. Wouldn't you agree?

As you say, these are wear items and I can't tell much difference in shifting from the Chorus to the Chinese copy.

On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 12:28:09 AM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 11:18:17 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 8:02:00 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 8:51:07 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 5:09:11 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > > On Friday, April 29, 2022 at 8:10:36 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > > > > > On 4/29/2022 7:45 PM, John B. wrote:
> > > > > > > On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 23:43:30 -0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone
> > > > > > > <ra...@invalid.com> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >> AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> > > > > > >>> On 4/29/2022 3:22 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > > > > >>>> On 4/29/2022 3:15 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> > > > > > >>>>> On 4/29/2022 9:15 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > >>>>>> On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 3:51:42 PM UTC-4,
> > > > > > >>>>>> deaco...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > >>>>>>> I am trying to find an 11-28 or 12-30 10 spd Shimano
> > > > > > >>>>>>> cassette. I can buy a new ultegra for $80 with tax and
> > > > > > >>>>>>> shipping. I am cheap I keep looking ebay and facebood
> > > > > > >>>>>>> hoping someone has one to get rid of that is not bad. I
> > > > > > >>>>>>> don't spend huge money maybe less than $50. Cannot find..
> > > > > > >>>>>>> Weird I would think 10 spd is gone and someone has one
> > > > > > >>>>>>> sitting around not in use. But can I find one?
> > > > > > >>>>>>> Deacon mark
> > > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>> Â I made the mistake of buying a casette off ebay from a
> > > > > > >>>>>> private seller once. I barely made it out of my driveway
> > > > > > >>>>>> when the damn thing started skipping. Never ever buy a
> > > > > > >>>>>> used cassette/freewheel unless you've actually ridden the
> > > > > > >>>>>> wheel it came off of.
> > > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>> New ones have a different set of failure modes now:
> > > > > > >>>>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/failcscn.jpg
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>> because... china!
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>> Wow. Any word on how that failure happened? It seems really
> > > > > > >>>> weird.
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>> Cracks all through the low gear sprocket support webs.
> > > > > > >>> Didn't look at the other sprockets. Whatever it is it looks
> > > > > > >>> a lot like steel, and it responds to a magnet, but it's not
> > > > > > >>> whatever material Shimano, SRAM, SunRace etc use.
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> As the chinese say, 'Looks just like a product. Cheap too.'
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Chinese manufacturers are quite happy to deliver any quality level you are
> > > > > > >> willing to pay for AND CONTINUOUSLY VERIFY. It’s the last bit that catches
> > > > > > >> people.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Some years ago I was thinking of re-engineing a boat and someone
> > > > > > > suggested Cummins, made in China engines, as they were much cheaper
> > > > > > > then a Caterpillar engine. So I went to Cummins and "Yup! We can sell
> > > > > > > you an engine. Cheap!" But I, being a clever sort, sneakily asked,
> > > > > > > "Well, what about a guarantee" and was told that the guarantee was the
> > > > > > > same as their engines made in the U.S.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The secret is, of course, that the Cummins factory, in China is, or
> > > > > > > was in those days, managed by Cummins people from the U.S.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Which, by the way, is no different from the Caterpillar factory in
> > > > > > > Indonesia or even U.S. factories in Japan, back in the early days.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Shimano, by the way, has at least two major factories in China making
> > > > > > > bicycle parts (:-)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > TO be clear the failed cassette in my link is not a Shimano
> > > > > > product.
> > > > > I think that we can all agree that Shimano and Campagnolo deliver superior products with high quality control. But when you want light weight for a reasonable price, close inspection isn't too high a price to pay. A Super Record cassette costs over 10 times as much as that set I showed.
> > > > Strange trying to save about 100 gr max on a wear item.
> > > >
> > > > Lou
> > > Well, I sort of agree with you. It is almost 300 grams difference and I get the same life out of the lightweight cassette as out of a Campy Record. Why buy a heavier Record that costs 10 ties as much?
> > 300 grams difference? I don't believe that. Difference between Super Record 11 speed cassette and a 11 speed Chorus cassette is the fact that a Super Record cassette the largest three cogs are titanium. Titanium cluster 91 grams, steel cluster 141 gr; difference 50 grams. If the three largest cogs would be aluminum the different still would be less than 100 gr. I don't see all titanium cassettes (Campagnolo and Shimano) which would even be more stupid let alone aluminum.
> Perhaps you are misunderstanding me. I am comparing a $30 cassette with a Centaur and a Chorus that I have laying about. The Centaur 11 speed with cap is 900 grams! So the 300 gram $32 ultralight simply makes that look silly. Wouldn't you agree?
>
> As you say, these are wear items and I can't tell much difference in shifting from the Chorus to the Chinese copy.

A Centaur 11 sp cassette weight 900 grams? A Rohloff speedhub weighs 1500 gr. This is getting ridiculous and I would advise you to get another scale. A Centaur cassette weighs about the same (steel lock ring) as a Chorus cassette (aluminum lock ring) that is listed at 230 gr for a 11-23 cassette.

Lou

On Wed, 04 May 2022 11:42:41 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 5/4/2022 10:51 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 5:09:11 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> On Friday, April 29, 2022 at 8:10:36 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 4/29/2022 7:45 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 23:43:30 -0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone
>>>>> <ra...@invalid.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 4/29/2022 3:22 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 4/29/2022 3:15 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 4/29/2022 9:15 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 3:51:42 PM UTC-4,
>>>>>>>>>> deaco...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> I am trying to find an 11-28 or 12-30 10 spd Shimano
>>>>>>>>>>> cassette. I can buy a new ultegra for $80 with tax and
>>>>>>>>>>> shipping. I am cheap I keep looking ebay and facebood
>>>>>>>>>>> hoping someone has one to get rid of that is not bad. I
>>>>>>>>>>> don't spend huge money maybe less than $50. Cannot find.
>>>>>>>>>>> Weird I would think 10 spd is gone and someone has one
>>>>>>>>>>> sitting around not in use. But can I find one?
>>>>>>>>>>> Deacon mark
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Â I made the mistake of buying a casette off ebay from a
>>>>>>>>>> private seller once. I barely made it out of my driveway
>>>>>>>>>> when the damn thing started skipping. Never ever buy a
>>>>>>>>>> used cassette/freewheel unless you've actually ridden the
>>>>>>>>>> wheel it came off of.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> New ones have a different set of failure modes now:
>>>>>>>>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/failcscn.jpg
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> because... china!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Wow. Any word on how that failure happened? It seems really
>>>>>>>> weird.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cracks all through the low gear sprocket support webs.
>>>>>>> Didn't look at the other sprockets. Whatever it is it looks
>>>>>>> a lot like steel, and it responds to a magnet, but it's not
>>>>>>> whatever material Shimano, SRAM, SunRace etc use.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As the chinese say, 'Looks just like a product. Cheap too.'
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Chinese manufacturers are quite happy to deliver any quality level you are
>>>>>> willing to pay for AND CONTINUOUSLY VERIFY. It’s the last bit that catches
>>>>>> people.
>>>>>
>>>>> Some years ago I was thinking of re-engineing a boat and someone
>>>>> suggested Cummins, made in China engines, as they were much cheaper
>>>>> then a Caterpillar engine. So I went to Cummins and "Yup! We can sell
>>>>> you an engine. Cheap!" But I, being a clever sort, sneakily asked,
>>>>> "Well, what about a guarantee" and was told that the guarantee was the
>>>>> same as their engines made in the U.S.
>>>>>
>>>>> The secret is, of course, that the Cummins factory, in China is, or
>>>>> was in those days, managed by Cummins people from the U.S.
>>>>>
>>>>> Which, by the way, is no different from the Caterpillar factory in
>>>>> Indonesia or even U.S. factories in Japan, back in the early days.
>>>>>
>>>>> Shimano, by the way, has at least two major factories in China making
>>>>> bicycle parts (:-)
>>>>>
>>>> TO be clear the failed cassette in my link is not a Shimano
>>>> product.
>>> I think that we can all agree that Shimano and Campagnolo deliver superior products with high quality control. But when you want light weight for a reasonable price, close inspection isn't too high a price to pay. A Super Record cassette costs over 10 times as much as that set I showed.
>>
>>
>> Strange trying to save about 100 gr max on a wear item.
>>
>> Lou
>>
>
>+1
>Or, in the photo above, save $30 on unknown chinese
>material. Standard cassettes enjoy many iterations and much
>engineering attention. Substandard or 'super duper' can have
>diminishing returns.

I think it all falls back on a very old saying, "You pays your money
and you takes your choice". Which can also be stated as "if you want
cheap then buy cheap and if you want quality then buy quality".
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 3:42:15 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 12:28:09 AM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 11:18:17 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 8:02:00 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 8:51:07 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > > > On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 5:09:11 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > > > On Friday, April 29, 2022 at 8:10:36 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > > > > > > On 4/29/2022 7:45 PM, John B. wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 23:43:30 -0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone
> > > > > > > > <ra...@invalid.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >> AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> > > > > > > >>> On 4/29/2022 3:22 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > > > > > >>>> On 4/29/2022 3:15 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> > > > > > > >>>>> On 4/29/2022 9:15 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > >>>>>> On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 3:51:42 PM UTC-4,
> > > > > > > >>>>>> deaco...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > >>>>>>> I am trying to find an 11-28 or 12-30 10 spd Shimano
> > > > > > > >>>>>>> cassette. I can buy a new ultegra for $80 with tax and
> > > > > > > >>>>>>> shipping. I am cheap I keep looking ebay and facebood
> > > > > > > >>>>>>> hoping someone has one to get rid of that is not bad. I
> > > > > > > >>>>>>> don't spend huge money maybe less than $50. Cannot find.
> > > > > > > >>>>>>> Weird I would think 10 spd is gone and someone has one
> > > > > > > >>>>>>> sitting around not in use. But can I find one?
> > > > > > > >>>>>>> Deacon mark
> > > > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>> Â I made the mistake of buying a casette off ebay from a
> > > > > > > >>>>>> private seller once. I barely made it out of my driveway
> > > > > > > >>>>>> when the damn thing started skipping. Never ever buy a
> > > > > > > >>>>>> used cassette/freewheel unless you've actually ridden the
> > > > > > > >>>>>> wheel it came off of.
> > > > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>> New ones have a different set of failure modes now:
> > > > > > > >>>>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/failcscn.jpg
> > > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>> because... china!
> > > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > > >>>> Wow. Any word on how that failure happened? It seems really
> > > > > > > >>>> weird.
> > > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > > >>> Cracks all through the low gear sprocket support webs.
> > > > > > > >>> Didn't look at the other sprockets. Whatever it is it looks
> > > > > > > >>> a lot like steel, and it responds to a magnet, but it's not
> > > > > > > >>> whatever material Shimano, SRAM, SunRace etc use.
> > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > >>> As the chinese say, 'Looks just like a product. Cheap too..'
> > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> Chinese manufacturers are quite happy to deliver any quality level you are
> > > > > > > >> willing to pay for AND CONTINUOUSLY VERIFY. It’s the last bit that catches
> > > > > > > >> people.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Some years ago I was thinking of re-engineing a boat and someone
> > > > > > > > suggested Cummins, made in China engines, as they were much cheaper
> > > > > > > > then a Caterpillar engine. So I went to Cummins and "Yup! We can sell
> > > > > > > > you an engine. Cheap!" But I, being a clever sort, sneakily asked,
> > > > > > > > "Well, what about a guarantee" and was told that the guarantee was the
> > > > > > > > same as their engines made in the U.S.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The secret is, of course, that the Cummins factory, in China is, or
> > > > > > > > was in those days, managed by Cummins people from the U.S.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Which, by the way, is no different from the Caterpillar factory in
> > > > > > > > Indonesia or even U.S. factories in Japan, back in the early days.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Shimano, by the way, has at least two major factories in China making
> > > > > > > > bicycle parts (:-)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > TO be clear the failed cassette in my link is not a Shimano
> > > > > > > product.
> > > > > > I think that we can all agree that Shimano and Campagnolo deliver superior products with high quality control. But when you want light weight for a reasonable price, close inspection isn't too high a price to pay. A Super Record cassette costs over 10 times as much as that set I showed.
> > > > > Strange trying to save about 100 gr max on a wear item.
> > > > >
> > > > > Lou
> > > > Well, I sort of agree with you. It is almost 300 grams difference and I get the same life out of the lightweight cassette as out of a Campy Record. Why buy a heavier Record that costs 10 ties as much?
> > > 300 grams difference? I don't believe that. Difference between Super Record 11 speed cassette and a 11 speed Chorus cassette is the fact that a Super Record cassette the largest three cogs are titanium. Titanium cluster 91 grams, steel cluster 141 gr; difference 50 grams. If the three largest cogs would be aluminum the different still would be less than 100 gr. I don't see all titanium cassettes (Campagnolo and Shimano) which would even be more stupid let alone aluminum.
> > Perhaps you are misunderstanding me. I am comparing a $30 cassette with a Centaur and a Chorus that I have laying about. The Centaur 11 speed with cap is 900 grams! So the 300 gram $32 ultralight simply makes that look silly. Wouldn't you agree?
> >
> > As you say, these are wear items and I can't tell much difference in shifting from the Chorus to the Chinese copy.
> A Centaur 11 sp cassette weight 900 grams? A Rohloff speedhub weighs 1500 gr. This is getting ridiculous and I would advise you to get another scale.. A Centaur cassette weighs about the same (steel lock ring) as a Chorus cassette (aluminum lock ring) that is listed at 230 gr for a 11-23 cassette.

You're correct, I made a mistake. The Centaur cassette is actually 360 grams. I had the scale on the lb scale and it was .900 pounds.

On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 5:29:54 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 3:42:15 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 12:28:09 AM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 11:18:17 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 8:02:00 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > > On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 8:51:07 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > > > > On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 5:09:11 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > > > > On Friday, April 29, 2022 at 8:10:36 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > > > > > > > On 4/29/2022 7:45 PM, John B. wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 23:43:30 -0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone
> > > > > > > > > <ra...@invalid.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >> AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >>> On 4/29/2022 3:22 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > > > > > > >>>> On 4/29/2022 3:15 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> > > > > > > > >>>>> On 4/29/2022 9:15 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > >>>>>> On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 3:51:42 PM UTC-4,
> > > > > > > > >>>>>> deaco...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > >>>>>>> I am trying to find an 11-28 or 12-30 10 spd Shimano
> > > > > > > > >>>>>>> cassette. I can buy a new ultegra for $80 with tax and
> > > > > > > > >>>>>>> shipping. I am cheap I keep looking ebay and facebood
> > > > > > > > >>>>>>> hoping someone has one to get rid of that is not bad. I
> > > > > > > > >>>>>>> don't spend huge money maybe less than $50. Cannot find.
> > > > > > > > >>>>>>> Weird I would think 10 spd is gone and someone has one
> > > > > > > > >>>>>>> sitting around not in use. But can I find one?
> > > > > > > > >>>>>>> Deacon mark
> > > > > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > > > > >>>>>> Â I made the mistake of buying a casette off ebay from a
> > > > > > > > >>>>>> private seller once. I barely made it out of my driveway
> > > > > > > > >>>>>> when the damn thing started skipping. Never ever buy a
> > > > > > > > >>>>>> used cassette/freewheel unless you've actually ridden the
> > > > > > > > >>>>>> wheel it came off of.
> > > > > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > > > >>>>> New ones have a different set of failure modes now:
> > > > > > > > >>>>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/failcscn.jpg
> > > > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > > > >>>>> because... china!
> > > > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > > > >>>> Wow. Any word on how that failure happened? It seems really
> > > > > > > > >>>> weird.
> > > > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > > > >>> Cracks all through the low gear sprocket support webs.
> > > > > > > > >>> Didn't look at the other sprockets. Whatever it is it looks
> > > > > > > > >>> a lot like steel, and it responds to a magnet, but it's not
> > > > > > > > >>> whatever material Shimano, SRAM, SunRace etc use.
> > > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > > >>> As the chinese say, 'Looks just like a product. Cheap too.'
> > > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> Chinese manufacturers are quite happy to deliver any quality level you are
> > > > > > > > >> willing to pay for AND CONTINUOUSLY VERIFY. It’s the last bit that catches
> > > > > > > > >> people.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Some years ago I was thinking of re-engineing a boat and someone
> > > > > > > > > suggested Cummins, made in China engines, as they were much cheaper
> > > > > > > > > then a Caterpillar engine. So I went to Cummins and "Yup! We can sell
> > > > > > > > > you an engine. Cheap!" But I, being a clever sort, sneakily asked,
> > > > > > > > > "Well, what about a guarantee" and was told that the guarantee was the
> > > > > > > > > same as their engines made in the U.S.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The secret is, of course, that the Cummins factory, in China is, or
> > > > > > > > > was in those days, managed by Cummins people from the U.S..
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Which, by the way, is no different from the Caterpillar factory in
> > > > > > > > > Indonesia or even U.S. factories in Japan, back in the early days.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Shimano, by the way, has at least two major factories in China making
> > > > > > > > > bicycle parts (:-)
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > TO be clear the failed cassette in my link is not a Shimano
> > > > > > > > product.
> > > > > > > I think that we can all agree that Shimano and Campagnolo deliver superior products with high quality control. But when you want light weight for a reasonable price, close inspection isn't too high a price to pay. A Super Record cassette costs over 10 times as much as that set I showed..
> > > > > > Strange trying to save about 100 gr max on a wear item.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Lou
> > > > > Well, I sort of agree with you. It is almost 300 grams difference and I get the same life out of the lightweight cassette as out of a Campy Record. Why buy a heavier Record that costs 10 ties as much?
> > > > 300 grams difference? I don't believe that. Difference between Super Record 11 speed cassette and a 11 speed Chorus cassette is the fact that a Super Record cassette the largest three cogs are titanium. Titanium cluster 91 grams, steel cluster 141 gr; difference 50 grams. If the three largest cogs would be aluminum the different still would be less than 100 gr. I don't see all titanium cassettes (Campagnolo and Shimano) which would even be more stupid let alone aluminum.
> > > Perhaps you are misunderstanding me. I am comparing a $30 cassette with a Centaur and a Chorus that I have laying about. The Centaur 11 speed with cap is 900 grams! So the 300 gram $32 ultralight simply makes that look silly. Wouldn't you agree?
> > >
> > > As you say, these are wear items and I can't tell much difference in shifting from the Chorus to the Chinese copy.
> > A Centaur 11 sp cassette weight 900 grams? A Rohloff speedhub weighs 1500 gr. This is getting ridiculous and I would advise you to get another scale. A Centaur cassette weighs about the same (steel lock ring) as a Chorus cassette (aluminum lock ring) that is listed at 230 gr for a 11-23 cassette..
> You're correct, I made a mistake. The Centaur cassette is actually 360 grams. I had the scale on the lb scale and it was .900 pounds.
..76 lbs I suppose. I must have weighed a different cassette than the one I have in the box in the front of the cabinet.

On Wed, 4 May 2022 17:29:53 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 3:42:15 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 12:28:09 AM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> > On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 11:18:17 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> > > On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 8:02:00 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> > > > On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 8:51:07 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> > > > > On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 5:09:11 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> > > > > > On Friday, April 29, 2022 at 8:10:36 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> > > > > > > On 4/29/2022 7:45 PM, John B. wrote:
>> > > > > > > > On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 23:43:30 -0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone
>> > > > > > > > <ra...@invalid.com> wrote:
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > >> AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> > > > > > > >>> On 4/29/2022 3:22 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> > > > > > > >>>> On 4/29/2022 3:15 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> > > > > > > >>>>> On 4/29/2022 9:15 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> > > > > > > >>>>>> On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 3:51:42 PM UTC-4,
>> > > > > > > >>>>>> deaco...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > > > > > > >>>>>>> I am trying to find an 11-28 or 12-30 10 spd Shimano
>> > > > > > > >>>>>>> cassette. I can buy a new ultegra for $80 with tax and
>> > > > > > > >>>>>>> shipping. I am cheap I keep looking ebay and facebood
>> > > > > > > >>>>>>> hoping someone has one to get rid of that is not bad. I
>> > > > > > > >>>>>>> don't spend huge money maybe less than $50. Cannot find.
>> > > > > > > >>>>>>> Weird I would think 10 spd is gone and someone has one
>> > > > > > > >>>>>>> sitting around not in use. But can I find one?
>> > > > > > > >>>>>>> Deacon mark
>> > > > > > > >>>>>>
>> > > > > > > >>>>>> Â I made the mistake of buying a casette off ebay from a
>> > > > > > > >>>>>> private seller once. I barely made it out of my driveway
>> > > > > > > >>>>>> when the damn thing started skipping. Never ever buy a
>> > > > > > > >>>>>> used cassette/freewheel unless you've actually ridden the
>> > > > > > > >>>>>> wheel it came off of.
>> > > > > > > >>>>>>
>> > > > > > > >>>>>
>> > > > > > > >>>>> New ones have a different set of failure modes now:
>> > > > > > > >>>>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/failcscn.jpg
>> > > > > > > >>>>>
>> > > > > > > >>>>> because... china!
>> > > > > > > >>>>
>> > > > > > > >>>> Wow. Any word on how that failure happened? It seems really
>> > > > > > > >>>> weird.
>> > > > > > > >>>>
>> > > > > > > >>>>
>> > > > > > > >>> Cracks all through the low gear sprocket support webs.
>> > > > > > > >>> Didn't look at the other sprockets. Whatever it is it looks
>> > > > > > > >>> a lot like steel, and it responds to a magnet, but it's not
>> > > > > > > >>> whatever material Shimano, SRAM, SunRace etc use.
>> > > > > > > >>>
>> > > > > > > >>> As the chinese say, 'Looks just like a product. Cheap too.'
>> > > > > > > >>>
>> > > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > > >> Chinese manufacturers are quite happy to deliver any quality level you are
>> > > > > > > >> willing to pay for AND CONTINUOUSLY VERIFY. It’s the last bit that catches
>> > > > > > > >> people.
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > Some years ago I was thinking of re-engineing a boat and someone
>> > > > > > > > suggested Cummins, made in China engines, as they were much cheaper
>> > > > > > > > then a Caterpillar engine. So I went to Cummins and "Yup! We can sell
>> > > > > > > > you an engine. Cheap!" But I, being a clever sort, sneakily asked,
>> > > > > > > > "Well, what about a guarantee" and was told that the guarantee was the
>> > > > > > > > same as their engines made in the U.S.
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > The secret is, of course, that the Cummins factory, in China is, or
>> > > > > > > > was in those days, managed by Cummins people from the U.S.
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > Which, by the way, is no different from the Caterpillar factory in
>> > > > > > > > Indonesia or even U.S. factories in Japan, back in the early days.
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > Shimano, by the way, has at least two major factories in China making
>> > > > > > > > bicycle parts (:-)
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > TO be clear the failed cassette in my link is not a Shimano
>> > > > > > > product.
>> > > > > > I think that we can all agree that Shimano and Campagnolo deliver superior products with high quality control. But when you want light weight for a reasonable price, close inspection isn't too high a price to pay. A Super Record cassette costs over 10 times as much as that set I showed.
>> > > > > Strange trying to save about 100 gr max on a wear item.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Lou
>> > > > Well, I sort of agree with you. It is almost 300 grams difference and I get the same life out of the lightweight cassette as out of a Campy Record. Why buy a heavier Record that costs 10 ties as much?
>> > > 300 grams difference? I don't believe that. Difference between Super Record 11 speed cassette and a 11 speed Chorus cassette is the fact that a Super Record cassette the largest three cogs are titanium. Titanium cluster 91 grams, steel cluster 141 gr; difference 50 grams. If the three largest cogs would be aluminum the different still would be less than 100 gr. I don't see all titanium cassettes (Campagnolo and Shimano) which would even be more stupid let alone aluminum.
>> > Perhaps you are misunderstanding me. I am comparing a $30 cassette with a Centaur and a Chorus that I have laying about. The Centaur 11 speed with cap is 900 grams! So the 300 gram $32 ultralight simply makes that look silly. Wouldn't you agree?
>> >
>> > As you say, these are wear items and I can't tell much difference in shifting from the Chorus to the Chinese copy.
>> A Centaur 11 sp cassette weight 900 grams? A Rohloff speedhub weighs 1500 gr. This is getting ridiculous and I would advise you to get another scale. A Centaur cassette weighs about the same (steel lock ring) as a Chorus cassette (aluminum lock ring) that is listed at 230 gr for a 11-23 cassette.
>
>You're correct, I made a mistake. The Centaur cassette is actually 360 grams. I had the scale on the lb scale and it was .900 pounds.

Errr.... TOMMY!
From what I read 0.900 pounds is equal to 408.2331 grams or to put it
another way, 360 grams is equal to 0.7936641 pounds
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=convert+pounds+to+grams&ia=answer

Apparently you have a problem with numbers. Try taking your shoes off
when you get to numbers more then 10.

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 5:29:54 PM UTC-7, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 3:42:15 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> >
> > A Centaur 11 sp cassette weight 900 grams? A Rohloff speedhub weighs 1500 gr. This is getting ridiculous and I would advise you to get another scale. A Centaur cassette weighs about the same (steel lock ring) as a Chorus cassette (aluminum lock ring) that is listed at 230 gr for a 11-23 cassette..
> You're correct, I made a mistake. The Centaur cassette is actually 360 grams. I had the scale on the lb scale and it was .900 pounds.

So many mistakes. So many problems.

- Frank Krygowski

On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 8:27:13 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> On Wed, 4 May 2022 17:29:53 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 3:42:15 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> >> On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 12:28:09 AM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >> > On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 11:18:17 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> >> > > On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 8:02:00 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >> > > > On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 8:51:07 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> >> > > > > On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 5:09:11 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >> > > > > > On Friday, April 29, 2022 at 8:10:36 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >> > > > > > > On 4/29/2022 7:45 PM, John B. wrote:
> >> > > > > > > > On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 23:43:30 -0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone
> >> > > > > > > > <ra...@invalid.com> wrote:
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > >> AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >> > > > > > > >>> On 4/29/2022 3:22 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >> > > > > > > >>>> On 4/29/2022 3:15 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> >> > > > > > > >>>>> On 4/29/2022 9:15 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >> > > > > > > >>>>>> On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 3:51:42 PM UTC-4,
> >> > > > > > > >>>>>> deaco...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> > > > > > > >>>>>>> I am trying to find an 11-28 or 12-30 10 spd Shimano
> >> > > > > > > >>>>>>> cassette. I can buy a new ultegra for $80 with tax and
> >> > > > > > > >>>>>>> shipping. I am cheap I keep looking ebay and facebood
> >> > > > > > > >>>>>>> hoping someone has one to get rid of that is not bad. I
> >> > > > > > > >>>>>>> don't spend huge money maybe less than $50. Cannot find.
> >> > > > > > > >>>>>>> Weird I would think 10 spd is gone and someone has one
> >> > > > > > > >>>>>>> sitting around not in use. But can I find one?
> >> > > > > > > >>>>>>> Deacon mark
> >> > > > > > > >>>>>>
> >> > > > > > > >>>>>> Â I made the mistake of buying a casette off ebay from a
> >> > > > > > > >>>>>> private seller once. I barely made it out of my driveway
> >> > > > > > > >>>>>> when the damn thing started skipping. Never ever buy a
> >> > > > > > > >>>>>> used cassette/freewheel unless you've actually ridden the
> >> > > > > > > >>>>>> wheel it came off of.
> >> > > > > > > >>>>>>
> >> > > > > > > >>>>>
> >> > > > > > > >>>>> New ones have a different set of failure modes now:
> >> > > > > > > >>>>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/failcscn.jpg
> >> > > > > > > >>>>>
> >> > > > > > > >>>>> because... china!
> >> > > > > > > >>>>
> >> > > > > > > >>>> Wow. Any word on how that failure happened? It seems really
> >> > > > > > > >>>> weird.
> >> > > > > > > >>>>
> >> > > > > > > >>>>
> >> > > > > > > >>> Cracks all through the low gear sprocket support webs.
> >> > > > > > > >>> Didn't look at the other sprockets. Whatever it is it looks
> >> > > > > > > >>> a lot like steel, and it responds to a magnet, but it's not
> >> > > > > > > >>> whatever material Shimano, SRAM, SunRace etc use.
> >> > > > > > > >>>
> >> > > > > > > >>> As the chinese say, 'Looks just like a product. Cheap too.'
> >> > > > > > > >>>
> >> > > > > > > >>
> >> > > > > > > >> Chinese manufacturers are quite happy to deliver any quality level you are
> >> > > > > > > >> willing to pay for AND CONTINUOUSLY VERIFY. It’s the last bit that catches
> >> > > > > > > >> people.
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > Some years ago I was thinking of re-engineing a boat and someone
> >> > > > > > > > suggested Cummins, made in China engines, as they were much cheaper
> >> > > > > > > > then a Caterpillar engine. So I went to Cummins and "Yup! We can sell
> >> > > > > > > > you an engine. Cheap!" But I, being a clever sort, sneakily asked,
> >> > > > > > > > "Well, what about a guarantee" and was told that the guarantee was the
> >> > > > > > > > same as their engines made in the U.S.
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > The secret is, of course, that the Cummins factory, in China is, or
> >> > > > > > > > was in those days, managed by Cummins people from the U.S.
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > Which, by the way, is no different from the Caterpillar factory in
> >> > > > > > > > Indonesia or even U.S. factories in Japan, back in the early days.
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > Shimano, by the way, has at least two major factories in China making
> >> > > > > > > > bicycle parts (:-)
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > TO be clear the failed cassette in my link is not a Shimano
> >> > > > > > > product.
> >> > > > > > I think that we can all agree that Shimano and Campagnolo deliver superior products with high quality control. But when you want light weight for a reasonable price, close inspection isn't too high a price to pay. A Super Record cassette costs over 10 times as much as that set I showed.
> >> > > > > Strange trying to save about 100 gr max on a wear item.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > Lou
> >> > > > Well, I sort of agree with you. It is almost 300 grams difference and I get the same life out of the lightweight cassette as out of a Campy Record. Why buy a heavier Record that costs 10 ties as much?
> >> > > 300 grams difference? I don't believe that. Difference between Super Record 11 speed cassette and a 11 speed Chorus cassette is the fact that a Super Record cassette the largest three cogs are titanium. Titanium cluster 91 grams, steel cluster 141 gr; difference 50 grams. If the three largest cogs would be aluminum the different still would be less than 100 gr. I don't see all titanium cassettes (Campagnolo and Shimano) which would even be more stupid let alone aluminum.
> >> > Perhaps you are misunderstanding me. I am comparing a $30 cassette with a Centaur and a Chorus that I have laying about. The Centaur 11 speed with cap is 900 grams! So the 300 gram $32 ultralight simply makes that look silly. Wouldn't you agree?
> >> >
> >> > As you say, these are wear items and I can't tell much difference in shifting from the Chorus to the Chinese copy.
> >> A Centaur 11 sp cassette weight 900 grams? A Rohloff speedhub weighs 1500 gr. This is getting ridiculous and I would advise you to get another scale. A Centaur cassette weighs about the same (steel lock ring) as a Chorus cassette (aluminum lock ring) that is listed at 230 gr for a 11-23 cassette.
> >
> >You're correct, I made a mistake. The Centaur cassette is actually 360 grams. I had the scale on the lb scale and it was .900 pounds.
> Errr.... TOMMY!
> From what I read 0.900 pounds is equal to 408.2331 grams or to put it
> another way, 360 grams is equal to 0.7936641 pounds
> https://duckduckgo.com/?q=convert+pounds+to+grams&ia=answer
>
> Apparently you have a problem with numbers. Try taking your shoes off
> when you get to numbers more then 10.
> --
> Cheers,
>
> John B.

On Wed, 4 May 2022 20:31:34 -0700 (PDT), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 8:27:13 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> On Wed, 4 May 2022 17:29:53 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 3:42:15 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> >> On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 12:28:09 AM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> >> > On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 11:18:17 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> >> > > On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 8:02:00 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> >> > > > On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 8:51:07 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> >> > > > > On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 5:09:11 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> >> > > > > > On Friday, April 29, 2022 at 8:10:36 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> >> > > > > > > On 4/29/2022 7:45 PM, John B. wrote:
>> >> > > > > > > > On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 23:43:30 -0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone
>> >> > > > > > > > <ra...@invalid.com> wrote:
>> >> > > > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > > >> AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> >> > > > > > > >>> On 4/29/2022 3:22 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> >> > > > > > > >>>> On 4/29/2022 3:15 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> >> > > > > > > >>>>> On 4/29/2022 9:15 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> >> > > > > > > >>>>>> On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 3:51:42 PM UTC-4,
>> >> > > > > > > >>>>>> deaco...@gmail.com wrote:
>> >> > > > > > > >>>>>>> I am trying to find an 11-28 or 12-30 10 spd Shimano
>> >> > > > > > > >>>>>>> cassette. I can buy a new ultegra for $80 with tax and
>> >> > > > > > > >>>>>>> shipping. I am cheap I keep looking ebay and facebood
>> >> > > > > > > >>>>>>> hoping someone has one to get rid of that is not bad. I
>> >> > > > > > > >>>>>>> don't spend huge money maybe less than $50. Cannot find.
>> >> > > > > > > >>>>>>> Weird I would think 10 spd is gone and someone has one
>> >> > > > > > > >>>>>>> sitting around not in use. But can I find one?
>> >> > > > > > > >>>>>>> Deacon mark
>> >> > > > > > > >>>>>>
>> >> > > > > > > >>>>>> Â I made the mistake of buying a casette off ebay from a
>> >> > > > > > > >>>>>> private seller once. I barely made it out of my driveway
>> >> > > > > > > >>>>>> when the damn thing started skipping. Never ever buy a
>> >> > > > > > > >>>>>> used cassette/freewheel unless you've actually ridden the
>> >> > > > > > > >>>>>> wheel it came off of.
>> >> > > > > > > >>>>>>
>> >> > > > > > > >>>>>
>> >> > > > > > > >>>>> New ones have a different set of failure modes now:
>> >> > > > > > > >>>>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/failcscn.jpg
>> >> > > > > > > >>>>>
>> >> > > > > > > >>>>> because... china!
>> >> > > > > > > >>>>
>> >> > > > > > > >>>> Wow. Any word on how that failure happened? It seems really
>> >> > > > > > > >>>> weird.
>> >> > > > > > > >>>>
>> >> > > > > > > >>>>
>> >> > > > > > > >>> Cracks all through the low gear sprocket support webs.
>> >> > > > > > > >>> Didn't look at the other sprockets. Whatever it is it looks
>> >> > > > > > > >>> a lot like steel, and it responds to a magnet, but it's not
>> >> > > > > > > >>> whatever material Shimano, SRAM, SunRace etc use.
>> >> > > > > > > >>>
>> >> > > > > > > >>> As the chinese say, 'Looks just like a product. Cheap too.'
>> >> > > > > > > >>>
>> >> > > > > > > >>
>> >> > > > > > > >> Chinese manufacturers are quite happy to deliver any quality level you are
>> >> > > > > > > >> willing to pay for AND CONTINUOUSLY VERIFY. It’s the last bit that catches
>> >> > > > > > > >> people.
>> >> > > > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > > > Some years ago I was thinking of re-engineing a boat and someone
>> >> > > > > > > > suggested Cummins, made in China engines, as they were much cheaper
>> >> > > > > > > > then a Caterpillar engine. So I went to Cummins and "Yup! We can sell
>> >> > > > > > > > you an engine. Cheap!" But I, being a clever sort, sneakily asked,
>> >> > > > > > > > "Well, what about a guarantee" and was told that the guarantee was the
>> >> > > > > > > > same as their engines made in the U.S.
>> >> > > > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > > > The secret is, of course, that the Cummins factory, in China is, or
>> >> > > > > > > > was in those days, managed by Cummins people from the U.S.
>> >> > > > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > > > Which, by the way, is no different from the Caterpillar factory in
>> >> > > > > > > > Indonesia or even U.S. factories in Japan, back in the early days.
>> >> > > > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > > > Shimano, by the way, has at least two major factories in China making
>> >> > > > > > > > bicycle parts (:-)
>> >> > > > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > > TO be clear the failed cassette in my link is not a Shimano
>> >> > > > > > > product.
>> >> > > > > > I think that we can all agree that Shimano and Campagnolo deliver superior products with high quality control. But when you want light weight for a reasonable price, close inspection isn't too high a price to pay. A Super Record cassette costs over 10 times as much as that set I showed.
>> >> > > > > Strange trying to save about 100 gr max on a wear item.
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > > Lou
>> >> > > > Well, I sort of agree with you. It is almost 300 grams difference and I get the same life out of the lightweight cassette as out of a Campy Record. Why buy a heavier Record that costs 10 ties as much?
>> >> > > 300 grams difference? I don't believe that. Difference between Super Record 11 speed cassette and a 11 speed Chorus cassette is the fact that a Super Record cassette the largest three cogs are titanium. Titanium cluster 91 grams, steel cluster 141 gr; difference 50 grams. If the three largest cogs would be aluminum the different still would be less than 100 gr. I don't see all titanium cassettes (Campagnolo and Shimano) which would even be more stupid let alone aluminum.
>> >> > Perhaps you are misunderstanding me. I am comparing a $30 cassette with a Centaur and a Chorus that I have laying about. The Centaur 11 speed with cap is 900 grams! So the 300 gram $32 ultralight simply makes that look silly. Wouldn't you agree?
>> >> >
>> >> > As you say, these are wear items and I can't tell much difference in shifting from the Chorus to the Chinese copy.
>> >> A Centaur 11 sp cassette weight 900 grams? A Rohloff speedhub weighs 1500 gr. This is getting ridiculous and I would advise you to get another scale. A Centaur cassette weighs about the same (steel lock ring) as a Chorus cassette (aluminum lock ring) that is listed at 230 gr for a 11-23 cassette.
>> >
>> >You're correct, I made a mistake. The Centaur cassette is actually 360 grams. I had the scale on the lb scale and it was .900 pounds.
>> Errr.... TOMMY!
>> From what I read 0.900 pounds is equal to 408.2331 grams or to put it
>> another way, 360 grams is equal to 0.7936641 pounds
>> https://duckduckgo.com/?q=convert+pounds+to+grams&ia=answer
>>
>> Apparently you have a problem with numbers. Try taking your shoes off
>> when you get to numbers more then 10.
>> --
>> Cheers,
>>
>> John B.
>
>But John, once Tommy gets up to 10 with his fingers, how will he be able to take off his shoes? All of his fingers will be busy. I am assuming Tommy uses regular shoes with laces and he has tied his shoes. Usually kids learn to tie their shoes before starting school. Kindergarten teachers have enough to teach the kids without adding shoe tying to it. So even though Tommy never graduated/attended school, he should have learned how to tie his shoes before school. So Tommy's solution may be to never ever wear shoes again as long as he lives. Then he could master the complexities of mathematics clear up to 20. That may be all Tommy's brain can handle.