Dawn Flood wrote:
>>>>
>>>> The positive claim imply the burden of proof.
>>>> The lack of belief is NOT a claim, no, there is nothing to
>>>> prove, hence, NO burden of proof.
>>>
>>> Well stated.
>>
>> Since DeMorgan allows a so-called positive statement to be
>> converted to negative, it's nonsense.
>
> As you talking about De Morgan's Theorem?  I have Bachelor of
> Science in Computer Science and have studied & read "Discrete
> Mathematics and Its Applications" by Professor Kenneth H. Rosen
> off and on for the past three decades, and so, I am not sure what
> you are talking about here!

(p^q) = ~(~p|~q)
(p|q) = ~(~p^~q)

This extends to quantifers
(some x)(px | qx) = ~(all x)(~px ^ ~qx)
(all x)(px ^ qx) = ~(some x)(~px | ~qx)

No map requires more than four colours.
= All maps require no more than four colours.

Which is the positive statement and which is negative?

>>> his book, "Dot, Dot, Dot...") compare God to The Force and decide
>>
>> 'He is a proponent of the right-wing LGBT grooming conspiracy
>> theory '
>
> Ad hominem.  Dr. Lindsay has some nutty ideas; this is true of
> many scholars.  Address the argument that he is making here, as
> opposed to some of his nutty political ideas.

You presented him as an authority. His qualifications are subject
to examination.

> As in the area of "subjective probability"?  Ever hear the joke,

Which is bad science fiction writing used to excuse the writer's
poor science knowledge.

> "What's the difference between an actuary and an accountant?"

Are you claiming your learned discourse is a joke?

> (Answer:  "About 50K".)  Read (or at least consider) the book
> written by Dr. Stephen Unwin, who used Bayesian analysis to
> calculate the probability of God's existence.  Other authors, such
> as Dr. Michael Shermer, have used the same formulas to get vastly
> different results.  Unlike risk analysis, no "lens model" exists
> for the supernatural that can provide any feedback on which to
> refine the model.  Unlike drivers who continually get into
> accidents, no probabilistic statements can be made about the
> existence of God beyond one's own subjective assessments.

Thanks for agreeing with me that yanking in fake probability is bogus.

> Theologians define "omnipotence", as does Merriam Webster:
>
> https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/omnipotence
>
> What is the problem here?

The god in the bible is shown to have limitations in actions. Any
definition of omnipotence that eschews all limitations is
inapplicable. That so-called proof that omnipotence makes god
impossible does so by inferring contradictions which turn out to
be limitations already expressed.

--
Siri Seal of Disavowal #000-001. Disavowed. Denied. @
'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' /|\
The Church of the Holey Apple .signature 3.2 / \
of Discordian Mysteries. This post insults Islam. Mohamed

On 3/24/2024 8:21 PM, Siri Cruise wrote:
> Dawn Flood wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> The positive claim imply the burden of proof.
>>>>> The lack of belief is NOT a claim, no, there is nothing to prove, hence, NO
>>>>> burden of proof.
>>>>
>>>> Well stated.
>>>
>>> Since DeMorgan allows a so-called positive statement to be converted to
>>> negative, it's nonsense.
>>
>> As you talking about De Morgan's Theorem?  I have Bachelor of Science in
>> Computer Science and have studied & read "Discrete Mathematics and Its
>> Applications" by Professor Kenneth H. Rosen off and on for the past three
>> decades, and so, I am not sure what you are talking about here!
>
> (p^q) = ~(~p|~q)
> (p|q) = ~(~p^~q)
>
> This extends to

Fuck off, phony polymath. You don't know this shit. You looked it up on Wikipedia.

Le 2024-03-24 à 21:44, Siri Cruise a écrit :
> Kualinar wrote:
>> WE created gods, thousands to millions of gods.
>
> What's your objective evidence?
>
History and theology.

Kualinar wrote:
> Le 2024-03-24 à 21:44, Siri Cruise a écrit :
>> Kualinar wrote:
>>> WE created gods, thousands to millions of gods.
>>
>> What's your objective evidence?
>>
> History and theology.

Cite the historical text.

Theology is now an objective science? Desperate much?

There is prehistoric evidence from paleoanthropology that our
genus has had some kind of religious musing for a long time.

--
Siri Seal of Disavowal #000-001. Disavowed. Denied. @
'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' /|\
The Church of the Holey Apple .signature 3.2 / \
of Discordian Mysteries. This post insults Islam. Mohamed

Rod Flanders wrote on 19/3/24 1:33 pm:
> Kualinar <kuakinar@videotron.ca> wrote:
>> Le 2024-03-16 à 15:36, Rod Flanders a écrit :

<Snip>

>>> Processes don't just happen, only a mind is can invent one.
>> Yes they do. ALL natural processes just happen, and they don't need
>> a mind to «invent» them. The mind is just there to discover,
>> identify, describe and explain them. The mind is required to NAME
>> the process, but not to «invent» them, as they are not invented.
>>>
>>> Natural selection is seen so we know God invented it.
>>>
>> Plugging your god of the gaps again.
>
> Natural Selection had to be imagined before it could be created.
>
> God created Natural Selection. God created logic. God created the
> internet too.

God created Free-Will ..... which gave US the ability to ignore or even
deny God!!
--
Daniel

On 3/24/2024 10:21 PM, Siri Cruise wrote:
> Dawn Flood wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> The positive claim imply the burden of proof.
>>>>> The lack of belief is NOT a claim, no, there is nothing to prove,
>>>>> hence, NO burden of proof.
>>>>
>>>> Well stated.
>>>
>>> Since DeMorgan allows a so-called positive statement to be converted
>>> to negative, it's nonsense.
>>
>> As you talking about De Morgan's Theorem?  I have Bachelor of Science
>> in Computer Science and have studied & read "Discrete Mathematics and
>> Its Applications" by Professor Kenneth H. Rosen off and on for the
>> past three decades, and so, I am not sure what you are talking about
>> here!
>
> (p^q) = ~(~p|~q)
> (p|q) = ~(~p^~q)
>
> This extends to quantifers
> (some x)(px | qx) = ~(all x)(~px ^ ~qx)
> (all x)(px ^ qx) = ~(some x)(~px | ~qx)
>
> No map requires more than four colours.
> = All maps require no more than four colours.
>
> Which is the positive statement and which is negative?
>

Both statements are positive.

>
> The god in the bible is shown to have limitations in actions. Any
> definition of omnipotence that eschews all limitations is inapplicable.
> That so-called proof that omnipotence makes god impossible does so by
> inferring contradictions which turn out to be limitations already
> expressed.
>

There is not "one God" of the Bible. The early Hebrews were henotheistic:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henotheism

Dawn

Le 2024-03-26 à 04:46, Daniel65 a écrit :
> Rod Flanders wrote on 19/3/24 1:33 pm:
>> Kualinar <kuakinar@videotron.ca> wrote:
>>> Le 2024-03-16 à 15:36, Rod Flanders a écrit :
>
> <Snip>
>
>>>> Processes don't just happen, only a mind is can invent one.
>>> Yes they do. ALL natural processes just happen, and they don't need
>>> a mind to «invent» them. The mind is just there to discover,
>>> identify, describe and explain them. The mind is required to NAME
>>> the process, but not to «invent» them, as they are not invented.
>>>>
>>>> Natural selection is seen so we know God invented it.
>>>>
>>> Plugging your god of the gaps again.
>>
>> Natural Selection had to be imagined before it could be created.
>>
>> God created Natural Selection. God created logic. God created the
>> internet too.
>
> God created Free-Will ..... which gave US the ability to ignore or even
> deny God!!

The god from the bible is said to be omniscient, to have exact and
perfect knowledge of EVERYTHING that have happened, is happening and
WILL EVER happen.
That makes free will positively impossible.

Kualinar wrote:
> Le 2024-03-26 à 04:46, Daniel65 a écrit :
>> Rod Flanders wrote on 19/3/24 1:33 pm:
>>> Kualinar <kuakinar@videotron.ca> wrote:
>>>> Le 2024-03-16 à 15:36, Rod Flanders a écrit :
>>
>> <Snip>
>>
>>>>> Processes don't just happen, only a mind is can invent one.
>>>> Yes they do. ALL natural processes just happen, and they don't need
>>>> a mind to «invent» them. The mind is just there to discover,
>>>> identify, describe and explain them. The mind is required to NAME
>>>> the process, but not to «invent» them, as they are not invented.
>>>>>
>>>>> Natural selection is seen so we know God invented it.
>>>>>
>>>> Plugging your god of the gaps again.
>>>
>>> Natural Selection had to be imagined before it could be created.
>>>
>>> God created Natural Selection. God created logic. God created the
>>> internet too.
>>
>> God created Free-Will ..... which gave US the ability to ignore or even
>> deny God!!
>
> The god from the bible is said to be omniscient, to have exact and
> perfect knowledge of EVERYTHING that have happened, is happening and
> WILL EVER happen.
> That makes free will positively impossible.

no. logically, foreknowledge of the result of a choice does not
preclude, restrict, or affect the ability to choose

--
“Atheism is the birth right of all human, remember that!”- hhyapster 7.4.23

"Christian beliefs cannot withstand reason, fact, and knowledge"

"Religion is not about truth, it's about lifestyle"

"God is a convenient explanation for what man does not understand.
The less that's inexplicable, the less need for a 'God' explanation."

"Religion is an evil who's goal is mind control"

"The problem with theism is that it never remains within
the realm of belief, but invariably proceeds to assertion"

Le 2024-03-26 à 20:49, Maximus a écrit :
> Kualinar wrote:
>> Le 2024-03-26 à 04:46, Daniel65 a écrit :
>>> Rod Flanders wrote on 19/3/24 1:33 pm:
>>>> Kualinar <kuakinar@videotron.ca> wrote:
>>>>> Le 2024-03-16 à 15:36, Rod Flanders a écrit :
>>>
>>> <Snip>
>>>
>>>>>> Processes don't just happen, only a mind is can invent one.
>>>>> Yes they do. ALL natural processes just happen, and they don't need
>>>>> a mind to «invent» them. The mind is just there to discover,
>>>>> identify, describe and explain them. The mind is required to NAME
>>>>> the process, but not to «invent» them, as they are not invented.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Natural selection is seen so we know God invented it.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Plugging your god of the gaps again.
>>>>
>>>> Natural Selection had to be imagined before it could be created.
>>>>
>>>> God created Natural Selection. God created logic. God created the
>>>> internet too.
>>>
>>> God created Free-Will ..... which gave US the ability to ignore or even
>>> deny God!!
>>
>> The god from the bible is said to be omniscient, to have exact and
>> perfect knowledge of EVERYTHING that have happened, is happening and
>> WILL EVER happen.
>> That makes free will positively impossible.
>
> no. logically, foreknowledge of the result of a choice does not
> preclude, restrict, or affect the ability to choose
>
The omniscience of the christian god, coupled with it's omnipotence,
mean that it DO know, must know, what everyone will choose in advance.
That mean that there are no real choice. That mean that the ability to
choose is an illusion. The existence of an entity that know the result
of all of our choices mean that those choices are predetermined. So, no
free will possible.

Kualinar <kuakinar@videotron.ca> wrote in
news:uu1kc1$2vcid$1@dont-email.me:

> Le 2024-03-26 à 20:49, Maximus a écrit :
>> Kualinar wrote:
>>> Le 2024-03-26 à 04:46, Daniel65 a écrit :
>>>> Rod Flanders wrote on 19/3/24 1:33 pm:
>>>>> Kualinar <kuakinar@videotron.ca> wrote:
>>>>>> Le 2024-03-16 à 15:36, Rod Flanders a écrit :
>>>>
>>>> <Snip>
>>>>
>>>>>>> Processes don't just happen, only a mind is can invent one.
>>>>>> Yes they do. ALL natural processes just happen, and they don't
>>>>>> need a mind to «invent» them. The mind is just there to
>>>>>> discover, identify, describe and explain them. The mind is
>>>>>> required to NAME the process, but not to «invent» them, as they
>>>>>> are not invented.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Natural selection is seen so we know God invented it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Plugging your god of the gaps again.
>>>>>
>>>>> Natural Selection had to be imagined before it could be created.
>>>>>
>>>>> God created Natural Selection. God created logic. God created the
>>>>> internet too.
>>>>
>>>> God created Free-Will ..... which gave US the ability to ignore or
>>>> even deny God!!
>>>
>>> The god from the bible is said to be omniscient, to have exact and
>>> perfect knowledge of EVERYTHING that have happened, is happening and
>>> WILL EVER happen.
>>> That makes free will positively impossible.
>>
>> no. logically, foreknowledge of the result of a choice does not
>> preclude, restrict, or affect the ability to choose
>>
> The omniscience of the christian god, coupled with it's omnipotence,
> mean that it DO know, must know, what everyone will choose in advance.
> That mean that there are no real choice. That mean that the ability to
> choose is an illusion. The existence of an entity that know the result
> of all of our choices mean that those choices are predetermined. So,
> no free will possible.
>

"But what about the Divine Plan?"
- George Carlin -

On 2024-03-27, Kualinar <kuakinar@videotron.ca> opined as follows:

>>>>>>> Processes don't just happen, only a mind is can invent one.
>>>>>> Yes they do. ALL natural processes just happen, and they don't need
>>>>>> a mind to «invent» them. The mind is just there to discover,
>>>>>> identify, describe and explain them. The mind is required to NAME
>>>>>> the process, but not to «invent» them, as they are not invented.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Natural selection is seen so we know God invented it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Plugging your god of the gaps again.
>>>>>
>>>>> Natural Selection had to be imagined before it could be created.
>>>>>
>>>>> God created Natural Selection. God created logic. God created the
>>>>> internet too.
>>>>
>>>> God created Free-Will ..... which gave US the ability to ignore or even
>>>> deny God!!
>>>
>>> The god from the bible is said to be omniscient, to have exact and
>>> perfect knowledge of EVERYTHING that have happened, is happening and
>>> WILL EVER happen.
>>> That makes free will positively impossible.
>>
>> no. logically, foreknowledge of the result of a choice does not
>> preclude, restrict, or affect the ability to choose
>>
> The omniscience of the christian god, coupled with it's omnipotence,
> mean that it DO know, must know, what everyone will choose in advance.
> That mean that there are no real choice. That mean that the ability to
> choose is an illusion. The existence of an entity that know the result
> of all of our choices mean that those choices are predetermined. So, no
> free will possible.

Yeah, nah, that doesn't follow, friend. Let's say I'm on a high peak. I
see two cars approaching from opposite directions around a bend. They are
in the same lane, say. I see that they are going to crash. Then they
crash. The fact that I foreknew they were going to crash in no way
diminishes the free will of the drivers. It simply points to my higher
vantage point. God's perception is outside space and time, and outside
causality. That in no way negates the free will of people living *in* time.

--
'Many have sought in vain to tell joyously of the Most Joyous. Now at last It declares
Itself to me, now in this misery.' - Holderlin
____
/. \
___________< |___________
\___________ ___________/
\___________ ___________/
\___________ ___________/
| |
^^^ ^^^
_________
| R W |
| (*) |
|____U____|

Kualinar wrote:
> Le 2024-03-26 à 20:49, Maximus a écrit :
>> Kualinar wrote:
>>> Le 2024-03-26 à 04:46, Daniel65 a écrit :
>>>> Rod Flanders wrote on 19/3/24 1:33 pm:
>>>>> Kualinar <kuakinar@videotron.ca> wrote:
>>>>>> Le 2024-03-16 à 15:36, Rod Flanders a écrit :
>>>>
>>>> <Snip>
>>>>
>>>>>>> Processes don't just happen, only a mind is can invent one.
>>>>>> Yes they do. ALL natural processes just happen, and they don't need
>>>>>> a mind to «invent» them. The mind is just there to discover,
>>>>>> identify, describe and explain them. The mind is required to NAME
>>>>>> the process, but not to «invent» them, as they are not invented.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Natural selection is seen so we know God invented it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Plugging your god of the gaps again.
>>>>>
>>>>> Natural Selection had to be imagined before it could be created.
>>>>>
>>>>> God created Natural Selection. God created logic. God created the
>>>>> internet too.
>>>>
>>>> God created Free-Will ..... which gave US the ability to ignore or
>>>> even
>>>> deny God!!
>>>
>>> The god from the bible is said to be omniscient, to have exact and
>>> perfect knowledge of EVERYTHING that have happened, is happening and
>>> WILL EVER happen.
>>> That makes free will positively impossible.
>>
>> no. logically, foreknowledge of the result of a choice does not
>> preclude, restrict, or affect the ability to choose
>>
> The omniscience of the christian god, coupled with it's omnipotence,
> mean that it DO know, must know, what everyone will choose in advance.
> That mean that there are no real choice. That mean that the ability to
> choose is an illusion. The existence of an entity that know the result
> of all of our choices mean that those choices are predetermined. So,
> no free will possible.

no, you're wrong. it doesn't logically follow that the knowledge of the
outcome of a choice can affect or determine the choice, when the entity
with the knowledge has, and can have, no influence the choice.

--
“Atheism is the birth right of all human, remember that!”- hhyapster 7.4.23

"Christian beliefs cannot withstand reason, fact, and knowledge"

"Religion is not about truth, it's about lifestyle"

"God is a convenient explanation for what man does not understand.
The less that's inexplicable, the less need for a 'God' explanation."

"Religion is an evil who's goal is mind control"

"The problem with theism is that it never remains within
the realm of belief, but invariably proceeds to assertion"

Le 2024-03-27 à 20:10, Rockinghorse Winner a écrit :
> On 2024-03-27, Kualinar <kuakinar@videotron.ca> opined as follows:
>
>>>>>>>> Processes don't just happen, only a mind is can invent one.
>>>>>>> Yes they do. ALL natural processes just happen, and they don't need
>>>>>>> a mind to «invent» them. The mind is just there to discover,
>>>>>>> identify, describe and explain them. The mind is required to NAME
>>>>>>> the process, but not to «invent» them, as they are not invented.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Natural selection is seen so we know God invented it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Plugging your god of the gaps again.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Natural Selection had to be imagined before it could be created.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> God created Natural Selection. God created logic. God created the
>>>>>> internet too.
>>>>>
>>>>> God created Free-Will ..... which gave US the ability to ignore or even
>>>>> deny God!!
>>>>
>>>> The god from the bible is said to be omniscient, to have exact and
>>>> perfect knowledge of EVERYTHING that have happened, is happening and
>>>> WILL EVER happen.
>>>> That makes free will positively impossible.
>>>
>>> no. logically, foreknowledge of the result of a choice does not
>>> preclude, restrict, or affect the ability to choose
>>>
>> The omniscience of the christian god, coupled with it's omnipotence,
>> mean that it DO know, must know, what everyone will choose in advance.
>> That mean that there are no real choice. That mean that the ability to
>> choose is an illusion. The existence of an entity that know the result
>> of all of our choices mean that those choices are predetermined. So, no
>> free will possible.
>
> Yeah, nah, that doesn't follow, friend. Let's say I'm on a high peak. I
> see two cars approaching from opposite directions around a bend. They are
> in the same lane, say. I see that they are going to crash. Then they
> crash. The fact that I foreknew they were going to crash in no way
> diminishes the free will of the drivers. It simply points to my higher
> vantage point. God's perception is outside space and time, and outside
> causality. That in no way negates the free will of people living *in* time.
>
>

IF the future is known exactly in advance, then, every choice is
predetermined.
If every choice is predetermined, then, those are not actual choices.
The christian god is claimed to have PERFECT foreknowledge of
EVERYTHING. This imply that ALL choices are but illusions.
So, there can be NO free will.
In your example, you don't know that the cars will collide, you make an
educated guess that they will very probably collide. An omniscient god
actually KNOW. It knew that those two cars will collide before cars
where invented.
Then, add that the christian god is also claimed to be omnipotent, all
powerful, can do literally ANYTHING.
Placing god «outside space and time» is a fallacy. It's the special
pleading fallacy. Placing an omniscient and omnipotent, all loving, god
outside space and time, and not having it prevent a collision greatly
diminish it's attributes.

How can that entity save those distracted drivers ?
1) Have one of the car slip so that they miss each other.
2) Have one of the car encounter something that delays it.
3) Make sure that both drivers are fully aware of their surrounding, and
thus, stay in their respective lines.
And, there are many other possibilities.

Again, the attributed of the god from the bible make free will
impossible, imply that free will is nothing but an illusion.

Kualinar wrote:
> Le 2024-03-27 à 20:10, Rockinghorse Winner a écrit :
>> On 2024-03-27, Kualinar <kuakinar@videotron.ca> opined as follows:
>>
>>>>>>>>> Processes don't just happen, only a mind is can invent one.
>>>>>>>> Yes they do. ALL natural processes just happen, and they don't
>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>> a mind to «invent» them. The mind is just there to discover,
>>>>>>>> identify, describe and explain them. The mind is required to NAME
>>>>>>>> the process, but not to «invent» them, as they are not invented.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Natural selection is seen so we know God invented it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Plugging your god of the gaps again.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Natural Selection had to be imagined before it could be created.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> God created Natural Selection. God created logic. God created the
>>>>>>> internet too.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> God created Free-Will ..... which gave US the ability to ignore
>>>>>> or even
>>>>>> deny God!!
>>>>>
>>>>> The god from the bible is said to be omniscient, to have exact and
>>>>> perfect knowledge of EVERYTHING that have happened, is happening and
>>>>> WILL EVER happen.
>>>>> That makes free will positively impossible.
>>>>
>>>> no. logically, foreknowledge of the result of a choice does not
>>>> preclude, restrict, or affect the ability to choose
>>>>
>>> The omniscience of the christian god, coupled with it's omnipotence,
>>> mean that it DO know, must know, what everyone will choose in advance.
>>> That mean that there are no real choice. That mean that the ability to
>>> choose is an illusion. The existence of an entity that know the result
>>> of all of our choices mean that those choices are predetermined. So, no
>>> free will possible.
>>
>> Yeah, nah, that doesn't follow, friend.  Let's say I'm on a high
>> peak.  I
>> see two cars approaching from opposite directions around a bend. 
>> They are
>> in the same lane, say.  I see that they are going to crash. Then they
>> crash.  The fact that I foreknew they were going to crash in no way
>> diminishes the free will of the drivers.  It simply points to my higher
>> vantage point.  God's perception is outside space and time, and outside
>> causality.  That in no way negates the free will of people living
>> *in* time.
>>
>>
>
> IF the future is known exactly in advance, then, every choice is
> predetermined.

no. as I've already told you, it doesn't logically follow that the
knowledge of the outcome of a choice can affect or determine the choice,
when the entity with the knowledge is not influencing the choice.

> If every choice is predetermined, then, those are not actual choices.
> The christian god is claimed to have PERFECT foreknowledge of
> EVERYTHING. This imply that ALL choices are but illusions.
> So, there can be NO free will.
> In your example, you don't know that the cars will collide, you make
> an educated guess that they will very probably collide. An omniscient
> god actually KNOW. It knew that those two cars will collide before
> cars where invented.
> Then, add that the christian god is also claimed to be omnipotent, all
> powerful, can do literally ANYTHING.
> Placing god «outside space and time» is a fallacy. It's the special
> pleading fallacy. Placing an omniscient and omnipotent, all loving,
> god outside space and time, and not having it prevent a collision
> greatly diminish it's attributes.
>
> How can that entity save those distracted drivers ?
> 1) Have one of the car slip so that they miss each other.
> 2) Have one of the car encounter something that delays it.
> 3) Make sure that both drivers are fully aware of their surrounding,
> and thus, stay in their respective lines.
> And, there are many other possibilities.
>
> Again, the attributed of the god from the bible make free will
> impossible, imply that free will is nothing but an illusion.

--
“Atheism is the birth right of all human, remember that!”- hhyapster 7.4.23

"Christian beliefs cannot withstand reason, fact, and knowledge"

"Religion is not about truth, it's about lifestyle"

"God is a convenient explanation for what man does not understand.
The less that's inexplicable, the less need for a 'God' explanation."

"The problem with theism is that it never remains within
the realm of belief, but invariably proceeds to assertion"

Le 2024-03-29 à 23:15, Maximus a écrit :
> Kualinar wrote:
>> Le 2024-03-27 à 20:10, Rockinghorse Winner a écrit :
>>> On 2024-03-27, Kualinar <kuakinar@videotron.ca> opined as follows:
>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Processes don't just happen, only a mind is can invent one.
>>>>>>>>> Yes they do. ALL natural processes just happen, and they don't
>>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>>> a mind to «invent» them. The mind is just there to discover,
>>>>>>>>> identify, describe and explain them. The mind is required to NAME
>>>>>>>>> the process, but not to «invent» them, as they are not invented.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Natural selection is seen so we know God invented it.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Plugging your god of the gaps again.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Natural Selection had to be imagined before it could be created.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> God created Natural Selection. God created logic. God created the
>>>>>>>> internet too.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> God created Free-Will ..... which gave US the ability to ignore
>>>>>>> or even
>>>>>>> deny God!!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The god from the bible is said to be omniscient, to have exact and
>>>>>> perfect knowledge of EVERYTHING that have happened, is happening and
>>>>>> WILL EVER happen.
>>>>>> That makes free will positively impossible.
>>>>>
>>>>> no. logically, foreknowledge of the result of a choice does not
>>>>> preclude, restrict, or affect the ability to choose
>>>>>
>>>> The omniscience of the christian god, coupled with it's omnipotence,
>>>> mean that it DO know, must know, what everyone will choose in advance.
>>>> That mean that there are no real choice. That mean that the ability to
>>>> choose is an illusion. The existence of an entity that know the result
>>>> of all of our choices mean that those choices are predetermined. So, no
>>>> free will possible.
>>>
>>> Yeah, nah, that doesn't follow, friend.  Let's say I'm on a high
>>> peak.  I
>>> see two cars approaching from opposite directions around a bend. They
>>> are
>>> in the same lane, say.  I see that they are going to crash. Then they
>>> crash.  The fact that I foreknew they were going to crash in no way
>>> diminishes the free will of the drivers.  It simply points to my higher
>>> vantage point.  God's perception is outside space and time, and outside
>>> causality.  That in no way negates the free will of people living
>>> *in* time.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> IF the future is known exactly in advance, then, every choice is
>> predetermined.
>
> no. as I've already told you, it doesn't logically follow that the
> knowledge of the outcome of a choice can affect or determine the choice,
> when the entity with the knowledge is not influencing the choice.
> The ONLY way for an entity to know everything one will ever do in
advance, BEFORE one is even born mean that there is NO free will. The
ability to influence the outcome is NOT the issue.
Complete fore knowledge preclude the possibility of any free will. Any
actual fore knowledge imply that the future is as unchanging as the
past. If the future is unchanging, then, all choices are predetermined,
meaning NO free will.
Complete fore knowledge is one of the attributes of the biblical god. It
imply that it already knew what you, and every humans, will do a year
from now, BEFORE it started creating anythings. That imply that the
bible is wrong about human having free will.

Kualinar wrote:
> Le 2024-03-29 à 23:15, Maximus a écrit :
>> Kualinar wrote:
>>> Le 2024-03-27 à 20:10, Rockinghorse Winner a écrit :
>>>> On 2024-03-27, Kualinar <kuakinar@videotron.ca> opined as follows:
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Processes don't just happen, only a mind is can invent one.
>>>>>>>>>> Yes they do. ALL natural processes just happen, and they
>>>>>>>>>> don't need
>>>>>>>>>> a mind to «invent» them. The mind is just there to discover,
>>>>>>>>>> identify, describe and explain them. The mind is required to
>>>>>>>>>> NAME
>>>>>>>>>> the process, but not to «invent» them, as they are not invented.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Natural selection is seen so we know God invented it.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Plugging your god of the gaps again.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Natural Selection had to be imagined before it could be created.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> God created Natural Selection. God created logic. God created the
>>>>>>>>> internet too.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> God created Free-Will ..... which gave US the ability to ignore
>>>>>>>> or even
>>>>>>>> deny God!!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The god from the bible is said to be omniscient, to have exact and
>>>>>>> perfect knowledge of EVERYTHING that have happened, is happening
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> WILL EVER happen.
>>>>>>> That makes free will positively impossible.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> no. logically, foreknowledge of the result of a choice does not
>>>>>> preclude, restrict, or affect the ability to choose
>>>>>>
>>>>> The omniscience of the christian god, coupled with it's omnipotence,
>>>>> mean that it DO know, must know, what everyone will choose in
>>>>> advance.
>>>>> That mean that there are no real choice. That mean that the
>>>>> ability to
>>>>> choose is an illusion. The existence of an entity that know the
>>>>> result
>>>>> of all of our choices mean that those choices are predetermined.
>>>>> So, no
>>>>> free will possible.
>>>>
>>>> Yeah, nah, that doesn't follow, friend.  Let's say I'm on a high
>>>> peak.  I
>>>> see two cars approaching from opposite directions around a bend.
>>>> They are
>>>> in the same lane, say.  I see that they are going to crash. Then they
>>>> crash.  The fact that I foreknew they were going to crash in no way
>>>> diminishes the free will of the drivers.  It simply points to my
>>>> higher
>>>> vantage point.  God's perception is outside space and time, and
>>>> outside
>>>> causality.  That in no way negates the free will of people living
>>>> *in* time.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> IF the future is known exactly in advance, then, every choice is
>>> predetermined.
>>
>> no. as I've already told you, it doesn't logically follow that the
>> knowledge of the outcome of a choice can affect or determine the
>> choice, when the entity with the knowledge is not influencing the
>> choice.
> The ONLY way for an entity to know everything one will ever do in
> advance, BEFORE one is even born mean that there is NO free will. The
> ability to influence the outcome is NOT the issue.

it's precisely the issue.

> Complete fore knowledge preclude the possibility of any free will. Any
> actual fore knowledge imply that the future is as unchanging as the
> past. If the future is unchanging, then, all choices are
> predetermined, meaning NO free will.

suppose you go to buy a car, and the model you choose is available in
green, blue, and red. so you have a choice of colour, and the choice is
entirely yours alone. but by some magic the salesman knows you will
choose red, and you do choose red. how had the salesman's knowledge
affected your choice and free will to choose the colour? you could have
chosen any of the three. but had you chosen green the salesman would
have known you'd choose green, because the salesman knows the colour you
will choose. the salesman's knowledge of the choice in no way restricted
the choice. the buyer had free will to choose.

> Complete fore knowledge is one of the attributes of the biblical god.
> It imply that it already knew what you, and every humans, will do a
> year from now, BEFORE it started creating anythings. That imply that
> the bible is wrong about human having free will.

--
“Atheism is the birth right of all human, remember that!”- hhyapster 7.4.23

"Christian beliefs cannot withstand reason, fact, and knowledge"

"Religion is not about truth, it's about lifestyle"

"God is a convenient explanation for what man does not understand.
The less that's inexplicable, the less need for a 'God' explanation."

"The problem with theism is that it never remains within
the realm of belief, but invariably proceeds to assertion"

Kualinar wrote:
> Le 2024-03-29 à 23:15, Maximus a écrit :
>> Kualinar wrote:
>>> Le 2024-03-27 à 20:10, Rockinghorse Winner a écrit :
>>>> On 2024-03-27, Kualinar <kuakinar@videotron.ca> opined as
>>>> follows:
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Processes don't just happen, only a mind is can invent
>>>>>>>>>>> one.
>>>>>>>>>> Yes they do. ALL natural processes just happen, and they
>>>>>>>>>> don't need
>>>>>>>>>> a mind to «invent» them. The mind is just there to
>>>>>>>>>> discover,
>>>>>>>>>> identify, describe and explain them. The mind is
>>>>>>>>>> required to NAME
>>>>>>>>>> the process, but not to «invent» them, as they are not
>>>>>>>>>> invented.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Natural selection is seen so we know God invented it.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Plugging your god of the gaps again.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Natural Selection had to be imagined before it could be
>>>>>>>>> created.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> God created Natural Selection. God created logic. God
>>>>>>>>> created the
>>>>>>>>> internet too.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> God created Free-Will ..... which gave US the ability to
>>>>>>>> ignore or even
>>>>>>>> deny God!!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The god from the bible is said to be omniscient, to have
>>>>>>> exact and
>>>>>>> perfect knowledge of EVERYTHING that have happened, is
>>>>>>> happening and
>>>>>>> WILL EVER happen.
>>>>>>> That makes free will positively impossible.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> no. logically, foreknowledge of the result of a choice does not
>>>>>> preclude, restrict, or affect the ability to choose
>>>>>>
>>>>> The omniscience of the christian god, coupled with it's
>>>>> omnipotence,
>>>>> mean that it DO know, must know, what everyone will choose in
>>>>> advance.
>>>>> That mean that there are no real choice. That mean that the
>>>>> ability to
>>>>> choose is an illusion. The existence of an entity that know
>>>>> the result
>>>>> of all of our choices mean that those choices are
>>>>> predetermined. So, no
>>>>> free will possible.
>>>>
>>>> Yeah, nah, that doesn't follow, friend.  Let's say I'm on a
>>>> high peak.  I
>>>> see two cars approaching from opposite directions around a
>>>> bend. They are
>>>> in the same lane, say.  I see that they are going to crash.
>>>> Then they
>>>> crash.  The fact that I foreknew they were going to crash in
>>>> no way
>>>> diminishes the free will of the drivers.  It simply points to
>>>> my higher
>>>> vantage point.  God's perception is outside space and time,
>>>> and outside
>>>> causality.  That in no way negates the free will of people
>>>> living *in* time.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> IF the future is known exactly in advance, then, every choice
>>> is predetermined.
>>
>> no. as I've already told you, it doesn't logically follow that
>> the knowledge of the outcome of a choice can affect or determine
>> the choice, when the entity with the knowledge is not
>> influencing the choice.
>> The ONLY way for an entity to know everything one will ever do in
> advance, BEFORE one is even born mean that there is NO free will.
> The ability to influence the outcome is NOT the issue.
> Complete fore knowledge preclude the possibility of any free will.
> Any actual fore knowledge imply that the future is as unchanging
> as the past. If the future is unchanging, then, all choices are
> predetermined, meaning NO free will.
> Complete fore knowledge is one of the attributes of the biblical
> god. It imply that it already knew what you, and every humans,
> will do a year from now, BEFORE it started creating anythings.
> That imply that the bible is wrong about human having free will.

That's quite a quandry you've made for yourself.

Now that you've convinced yourself of whatever you wanted to, be
sure to ask who else wants to join you.

--
Siri Seal of Disavowal #000-001. Disavowed. Denied. @
'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' /|\
The Church of the Holey Apple .signature 3.2 / \
of Discordian Mysteries. This post insults Islam. Mohamed

Le 2024-03-30 à 11:10, Siri Cruise a écrit :
> Kualinar wrote:
>> Le 2024-03-29 à 23:15, Maximus a écrit :
>>> Kualinar wrote:
>>>> Le 2024-03-27 à 20:10, Rockinghorse Winner a écrit :
>>>>> On 2024-03-27, Kualinar <kuakinar@videotron.ca> opined as follows:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Processes don't just happen, only a mind is can invent one.
>>>>>>>>>>> Yes they do. ALL natural processes just happen, and they
>>>>>>>>>>> don't need
>>>>>>>>>>> a mind to «invent» them. The mind is just there to discover,
>>>>>>>>>>> identify, describe and explain them. The mind is required to
>>>>>>>>>>> NAME
>>>>>>>>>>> the process, but not to «invent» them, as they are not invented.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Natural selection is seen so we know God invented it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Plugging your god of the gaps again.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Natural Selection had to be imagined before it could be created.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> God created Natural Selection. God created logic. God created the
>>>>>>>>>> internet too.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> God created Free-Will ..... which gave US the ability to ignore
>>>>>>>>> or even
>>>>>>>>> deny God!!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The god from the bible is said to be omniscient, to have exact and
>>>>>>>> perfect knowledge of EVERYTHING that have happened, is happening
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> WILL EVER happen.
>>>>>>>> That makes free will positively impossible.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> no. logically, foreknowledge of the result of a choice does not
>>>>>>> preclude, restrict, or affect the ability to choose
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> The omniscience of the christian god, coupled with it's omnipotence,
>>>>>> mean that it DO know, must know, what everyone will choose in
>>>>>> advance.
>>>>>> That mean that there are no real choice. That mean that the
>>>>>> ability to
>>>>>> choose is an illusion. The existence of an entity that know the
>>>>>> result
>>>>>> of all of our choices mean that those choices are predetermined.
>>>>>> So, no
>>>>>> free will possible.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yeah, nah, that doesn't follow, friend.  Let's say I'm on a high
>>>>> peak.  I
>>>>> see two cars approaching from opposite directions around a bend.
>>>>> They are
>>>>> in the same lane, say.  I see that they are going to crash. Then they
>>>>> crash.  The fact that I foreknew they were going to crash in no way
>>>>> diminishes the free will of the drivers.  It simply points to my
>>>>> higher
>>>>> vantage point.  God's perception is outside space and time, and
>>>>> outside
>>>>> causality.  That in no way negates the free will of people living
>>>>> *in* time.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> IF the future is known exactly in advance, then, every choice is
>>>> predetermined.
>>>
>>> no. as I've already told you, it doesn't logically follow that the
>>> knowledge of the outcome of a choice can affect or determine the
>>> choice, when the entity with the knowledge is not influencing the
>>> choice.
>>> The ONLY way for an entity to know everything one will ever do in
>> advance, BEFORE one is even born mean that there is NO free will. The
>> ability to influence the outcome is NOT the issue.
>> Complete fore knowledge preclude the possibility of any free will. Any
>> actual fore knowledge imply that the future is as unchanging as the
>> past. If the future is unchanging, then, all choices are
>> predetermined, meaning NO free will.
>> Complete fore knowledge is one of the attributes of the biblical god.
>> It imply that it already knew what you, and every humans, will do a
>> year from now, BEFORE it started creating anythings. That imply that
>> the bible is wrong about human having free will.
>
> That's quite a quandry you've made for yourself.
>
> Now that you've convinced yourself of whatever you wanted to, be sure to
> ask who else wants to join you.
>
I don't believe in any god. I'm not even sure that a god, any god, can
even exist. Then, IF some god or gods can exist, I'm pretty sure that
those can't have all of the attributes that the bible and theists claim
their god possess.
My point is essentially that the existence of a god like that of the
bible make free will impossible, an illusion at best, contrary to what
is written in the bible about us having free will.
So, no quandary. Just an illustration of one of the many biblical
contradictions.

Kualinar <kuakinar@videotron.ca> wrote in
news:uubrik$1r1e5$1@dont-email.me:

>
> My point is essentially that the existence of a god like that of the
> bible make free will impossible, an illusion at best, contrary to what
> is written in the bible about us having free will.

"And he always needs money!"
- George Carlin -

On 2024-03-30, Kualinar <kuakinar@videotron.ca> opined as follows:
> Le 2024-03-29 à 23:15, Maximus a écrit :
>> Kualinar wrote:
>>> Le 2024-03-27 à 20:10, Rockinghorse Winner a écrit :
>>>> On 2024-03-27, Kualinar <kuakinar@videotron.ca> opined as follows:
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Processes don't just happen, only a mind is can invent one.
>>>>>>>>>> Yes they do. ALL natural processes just happen, and they don't
>>>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>>>> a mind to «invent» them. The mind is just there to discover,
>>>>>>>>>> identify, describe and explain them. The mind is required to NAME
>>>>>>>>>> the process, but not to «invent» them, as they are not invented.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Natural selection is seen so we know God invented it.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Plugging your god of the gaps again.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Natural Selection had to be imagined before it could be created.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> God created Natural Selection. God created logic. God created the
>>>>>>>>> internet too.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> God created Free-Will ..... which gave US the ability to ignore
>>>>>>>> or even
>>>>>>>> deny God!!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The god from the bible is said to be omniscient, to have exact and
>>>>>>> perfect knowledge of EVERYTHING that have happened, is happening and
>>>>>>> WILL EVER happen.
>>>>>>> That makes free will positively impossible.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> no. logically, foreknowledge of the result of a choice does not
>>>>>> preclude, restrict, or affect the ability to choose
>>>>>>
>>>>> The omniscience of the christian god, coupled with it's omnipotence,
>>>>> mean that it DO know, must know, what everyone will choose in advance.
>>>>> That mean that there are no real choice. That mean that the ability to
>>>>> choose is an illusion. The existence of an entity that know the result
>>>>> of all of our choices mean that those choices are predetermined. So, no
>>>>> free will possible.
>>>>
>>>> Yeah, nah, that doesn't follow, friend.  Let's say I'm on a high
>>>> peak.  I
>>>> see two cars approaching from opposite directions around a bend. They
>>>> are
>>>> in the same lane, say.  I see that they are going to crash. Then they
>>>> crash.  The fact that I foreknew they were going to crash in no way
>>>> diminishes the free will of the drivers.  It simply points to my higher
>>>> vantage point.  God's perception is outside space and time, and outside
>>>> causality.  That in no way negates the free will of people living
>>>> *in* time.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> IF the future is known exactly in advance, then, every choice is
>>> predetermined.
>>
>> no. as I've already told you, it doesn't logically follow that the
>> knowledge of the outcome of a choice can affect or determine the choice,
>> when the entity with the knowledge is not influencing the choice.
>> The ONLY way for an entity to know everything one will ever do in
> advance, BEFORE one is even born mean that there is NO free will. The
> ability to influence the outcome is NOT the issue.
> Complete fore knowledge preclude the possibility of any free will.

That is an assertion that you keep repeating, without offering any
explanation of why, my friend.

> actual fore knowledge imply that the future is as unchanging as the
> past. If the future is unchanging, then, all choices are predetermined,
> meaning NO free will.

That is just an assertion. You have offered no convincing argument to
support it.

It sounds like you are defending free will against God. Is this the case? Do
you believe in free will, and do you claim the concept of an all knowing God
contradicts it?

> Complete fore knowledge is one of the attributes of the biblical god. It
> imply that it already knew what you, and every humans, will do a year
> from now, BEFORE it started creating anythings. That imply that the
> bible is wrong about human having free will.

--
'Many have sought in vain to tell joyously of the Most Joyous. Now at last It declares
Itself to me, now in this misery.' - Holderlin
____
/. \
___________< |___________
\___________ ___________/
\___________ ___________/
\___________ ___________/
| |
^^^ ^^^
_________
| R W |
| (*) |
|____U____|

On 2024-03-30, Maximus <gladiator@colosseum.rome> opined as follows:
> Kualinar wrote:
>> Le 2024-03-29 à 23:15, Maximus a écrit :
>>> Kualinar wrote:
>>>> Le 2024-03-27 à 20:10, Rockinghorse Winner a écrit :
>>>>> On 2024-03-27, Kualinar <kuakinar@videotron.ca> opined as follows:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Processes don't just happen, only a mind is can invent one.
>>>>>>>>>>> Yes they do. ALL natural processes just happen, and they
>>>>>>>>>>> don't need
>>>>>>>>>>> a mind to «invent» them. The mind is just there to discover,
>>>>>>>>>>> identify, describe and explain them. The mind is required to
>>>>>>>>>>> NAME
>>>>>>>>>>> the process, but not to «invent» them, as they are not invented.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Natural selection is seen so we know God invented it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Plugging your god of the gaps again.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Natural Selection had to be imagined before it could be created.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> God created Natural Selection. God created logic. God created the
>>>>>>>>>> internet too.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> God created Free-Will ..... which gave US the ability to ignore
>>>>>>>>> or even
>>>>>>>>> deny God!!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The god from the bible is said to be omniscient, to have exact and
>>>>>>>> perfect knowledge of EVERYTHING that have happened, is happening
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> WILL EVER happen.
>>>>>>>> That makes free will positively impossible.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> no. logically, foreknowledge of the result of a choice does not
>>>>>>> preclude, restrict, or affect the ability to choose
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> The omniscience of the christian god, coupled with it's omnipotence,
>>>>>> mean that it DO know, must know, what everyone will choose in
>>>>>> advance.
>>>>>> That mean that there are no real choice. That mean that the
>>>>>> ability to
>>>>>> choose is an illusion. The existence of an entity that know the
>>>>>> result
>>>>>> of all of our choices mean that those choices are predetermined.
>>>>>> So, no
>>>>>> free will possible.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yeah, nah, that doesn't follow, friend.  Let's say I'm on a high
>>>>> peak.  I
>>>>> see two cars approaching from opposite directions around a bend.
>>>>> They are
>>>>> in the same lane, say.  I see that they are going to crash. Then they
>>>>> crash.  The fact that I foreknew they were going to crash in no way
>>>>> diminishes the free will of the drivers.  It simply points to my
>>>>> higher
>>>>> vantage point.  God's perception is outside space and time, and
>>>>> outside
>>>>> causality.  That in no way negates the free will of people living
>>>>> *in* time.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> IF the future is known exactly in advance, then, every choice is
>>>> predetermined.
>>>
>>> no. as I've already told you, it doesn't logically follow that the
>>> knowledge of the outcome of a choice can affect or determine the
>>> choice, when the entity with the knowledge is not influencing the
>>> choice.
>> The ONLY way for an entity to know everything one will ever do in
>> advance, BEFORE one is even born mean that there is NO free will. The
>> ability to influence the outcome is NOT the issue.
>
> it's precisely the issue.
>
>> Complete fore knowledge preclude the possibility of any free will. Any
>> actual fore knowledge imply that the future is as unchanging as the
>> past. If the future is unchanging, then, all choices are
>> predetermined, meaning NO free will.
>
> suppose you go to buy a car, and the model you choose is available in
> green, blue, and red. so you have a choice of colour, and the choice is
> entirely yours alone. but by some magic the salesman knows you will
> choose red, and you do choose red. how had the salesman's knowledge
> affected your choice and free will to choose the colour? you could have
> chosen any of the three. but had you chosen green the salesman would
> have known you'd choose green, because the salesman knows the colour you
> will choose. the salesman's knowledge of the choice in no way restricted
> the choice. the buyer had free will to choose.

Yes.

--
'Many have sought in vain to tell joyously of the Most Joyous. Now at last It declares
Itself to me, now in this misery.' - Holderlin
____
/. \
___________< |___________
\___________ ___________/
\___________ ___________/
\___________ ___________/
| |
^^^ ^^^
_________
| R W |
| (*) |
|____U____|

Rockinghorse Winner wrote:
> On 2024-03-30, Maximus <gladiator@colosseum.rome> opined as follows:
>> Kualinar wrote:
>>> Le 2024-03-29 à 23:15, Maximus a écrit :
>>>> Kualinar wrote:
>>>>> Le 2024-03-27 à 20:10, Rockinghorse Winner a écrit :
>>>>>> On 2024-03-27, Kualinar <kuakinar@videotron.ca> opined as follows:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Processes don't just happen, only a mind is can invent one.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes they do. ALL natural processes just happen, and they
>>>>>>>>>>>> don't need
>>>>>>>>>>>> a mind to «invent» them. The mind is just there to discover,
>>>>>>>>>>>> identify, describe and explain them. The mind is required to
>>>>>>>>>>>> NAME
>>>>>>>>>>>> the process, but not to «invent» them, as they are not invented.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Natural selection is seen so we know God invented it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Plugging your god of the gaps again.
>>>>>>>>>>> Natural Selection had to be imagined before it could be created.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> God created Natural Selection. God created logic. God created the
>>>>>>>>>>> internet too.
>>>>>>>>>> God created Free-Will ..... which gave US the ability to ignore
>>>>>>>>>> or even
>>>>>>>>>> deny God!!
>>>>>>>>> The god from the bible is said to be omniscient, to have exact and
>>>>>>>>> perfect knowledge of EVERYTHING that have happened, is happening
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> WILL EVER happen.
>>>>>>>>> That makes free will positively impossible.
>>>>>>>> no. logically, foreknowledge of the result of a choice does not
>>>>>>>> preclude, restrict, or affect the ability to choose
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The omniscience of the christian god, coupled with it's omnipotence,
>>>>>>> mean that it DO know, must know, what everyone will choose in
>>>>>>> advance.
>>>>>>> That mean that there are no real choice. That mean that the
>>>>>>> ability to
>>>>>>> choose is an illusion. The existence of an entity that know the
>>>>>>> result
>>>>>>> of all of our choices mean that those choices are predetermined.
>>>>>>> So, no
>>>>>>> free will possible.
>>>>>> Yeah, nah, that doesn't follow, friend.  Let's say I'm on a high
>>>>>> peak.  I
>>>>>> see two cars approaching from opposite directions around a bend.
>>>>>> They are
>>>>>> in the same lane, say.  I see that they are going to crash. Then they
>>>>>> crash.  The fact that I foreknew they were going to crash in no way
>>>>>> diminishes the free will of the drivers.  It simply points to my
>>>>>> higher
>>>>>> vantage point.  God's perception is outside space and time, and
>>>>>> outside
>>>>>> causality.  That in no way negates the free will of people living
>>>>>> *in* time.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> IF the future is known exactly in advance, then, every choice is
>>>>> predetermined.
>>>> no. as I've already told you, it doesn't logically follow that the
>>>> knowledge of the outcome of a choice can affect or determine the
>>>> choice, when the entity with the knowledge is not influencing the
>>>> choice.
>>> The ONLY way for an entity to know everything one will ever do in
>>> advance, BEFORE one is even born mean that there is NO free will. The
>>> ability to influence the outcome is NOT the issue.
>> it's precisely the issue.
>>
>>> Complete fore knowledge preclude the possibility of any free will. Any
>>> actual fore knowledge imply that the future is as unchanging as the
>>> past. If the future is unchanging, then, all choices are
>>> predetermined, meaning NO free will.
>> suppose you go to buy a car, and the model you choose is available in
>> green, blue, and red. so you have a choice of colour, and the choice is
>> entirely yours alone. but by some magic the salesman knows you will
>> choose red, and you do choose red. how had the salesman's knowledge
>> affected your choice and free will to choose the colour? you could have
>> chosen any of the three. but had you chosen green the salesman would
>> have known you'd choose green, because the salesman knows the colour you
>> will choose. the salesman's knowledge of the choice in no way restricted
>> the choice. the buyer had free will to choose.
> Yes.
>
>

thanks

--
“Atheism is the birth right of all human, remember that!”- hhyapster 7.4.23

"Christian beliefs cannot withstand reason, fact, and knowledge"

"Religion is not about truth, it's about lifestyle"

"God is a convenient explanation for what man does not understand.
The less that's inexplicable, the less need for a 'God' explanation."

"The problem with theism is that it never remains within
the realm of belief, but invariably proceeds to assertion"