Everything is perspective. If EVs were the norm with virtually every home having level 2 charging available and everyone using the same charging interface, imagine what it would be like to have to switch to ICE.

"Oil change? Why does the oil need to be changed, what's wrong with it? Isn't that a warranty repair?"

" I have to go where to find fuel for the car? That's at least 10 blocks!"

"Why does it make so much noise?"

"Why does it smell so bad? Can I just plug up that exhaust pipe? Maybe those fumes should be captured rather than set free in the air?"

I remember back in 2017 when I was looking at EVs and the Chevy dealer didn't have much to say about charging, "Yes, charging happens". Now GM is talking about an integrated network even though it is just a way to pay for electrons on multiple networks. It doesn't even include Electrify America. At one point GM was talking about working with Bechtel about a charging network.

I guess by the time they have a few serious contenders on the market this may be straightened out. At least the charging connector is semi-standardized now.

Imagine how bad it would be to drive a hydrogen powered car!

--

Rick C.

- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On 4/29/2021 12:46 PM, Rick C wrote:
> Everything is perspective. If EVs were the norm with virtually every home having level 2 charging available and everyone using the same charging interface, imagine what it would be like to have to switch to ICE.
>
> "Oil change? Why does the oil need to be changed, what's wrong with it? Isn't that a warranty repair?"
>
> " I have to go where to find fuel for the car? That's at least 10 blocks!"
>
> "Why does it make so much noise?"
>
> "Why does it smell so bad? Can I just plug up that exhaust pipe? Maybe those fumes should be captured rather than set free in the air?"
>
> I remember back in 2017 when I was looking at EVs and the Chevy dealer didn't have much to say about charging, "Yes, charging happens". Now GM is talking about an integrated network even though it is just a way to pay for electrons on multiple networks. It doesn't even include Electrify America. At one point GM was talking about working with Bechtel about a charging network.
>
> I guess by the time they have a few serious contenders on the market this may be straightened out. At least the charging connector is semi-standardized now.
>
> Imagine how bad it would be to drive a hydrogen powered car!
>

Chevy Bolt won some "Best of" award for 2021 which naturally infuriated
the Musk fan club.

Tesla is the best EV to get if you're spending $40,000+ on a new car
cash or finance, or want to lease a base trim Model 3 at $6000 down,
$359 a month. That is to say all their products are out of the price
range of 90% of car shoppers.

On 4/29/2021 2:25 PM, bitrex wrote:
> On 4/29/2021 12:46 PM, Rick C wrote:
>> Everything is perspective.  If EVs were the norm with virtually every
>> home having level 2 charging available and everyone using the same
>> charging interface, imagine what it would be like to have to switch to
>> ICE.
>>
>> "Oil change?  Why does the oil need to be changed, what's wrong with
>> it?  Isn't that a warranty repair?"
>>
>> " I have to go where to find fuel for the car?  That's at least 10
>> blocks!"
>>
>> "Why does it make so much noise?"
>>
>> "Why does it smell so bad?  Can I just plug up that exhaust pipe?
>> Maybe those fumes should be captured rather than set free in the air?"
>>
>> I remember back in 2017 when I was looking at EVs and the Chevy dealer
>> didn't have much to say about charging, "Yes, charging happens".  Now
>> GM is talking about an integrated network even though it is just a way
>> to pay for electrons on multiple networks.  It doesn't even include
>> Electrify America.  At one point GM was talking about working with
>> Bechtel about a charging network.
>>
>> I guess by the time they have a few serious contenders on the market
>> this may be straightened out.  At least the charging connector is
>> semi-standardized now.
>>
>> Imagine how bad it would be to drive a hydrogen powered car!
>>
>
> Chevy Bolt won some "Best of" award for 2021 which naturally infuriated
> the Musk fan club.
>
> Tesla is the best EV to get if you're spending $40,000+ on a new car
> cash or finance, or want to lease a base trim Model 3 at $6000 down,
> $359 a month. That is to say all their products are out of the price
> range of 90% of car shoppers.

Forgot to add that Tesla owners seem to prefer it this way, it's a
luxury brand.

On Thursday, April 29, 2021 at 9:46:15 AM UTC-7, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
> Everything is perspective. If EVs were the norm with virtually every home having level 2 charging available and everyone using the same charging interface, imagine what it would be like to have to switch to ICE.
>
> "Oil change? Why does the oil need to be changed, what's wrong with it? Isn't that a warranty repair?"
>
> " I have to go where to find fuel for the car? That's at least 10 blocks!"
>
> "Why does it make so much noise?"

Why doesn't it make some noise?

1. A young lady was walking slowly in the middle of the road. I had to drive as slowly as she walk.

2. An old lady was standing in front of my parked car, looking forward. I had to move slowly back and forth couple of time to catch her attention. Even my backing sound did not catch her attention.

I was told to resist using the horn, which is not too polite for pedestrian.

I need an ICE engine noise simulator.

On 4/29/2021 3:14 PM, Ed Lee wrote:
> On Thursday, April 29, 2021 at 9:46:15 AM UTC-7, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
>> Everything is perspective. If EVs were the norm with virtually every home having level 2 charging available and everyone using the same charging interface, imagine what it would be like to have to switch to ICE.
>>
>> "Oil change? Why does the oil need to be changed, what's wrong with it? Isn't that a warranty repair?"
>>
>> " I have to go where to find fuel for the car? That's at least 10 blocks!"
>>
>> "Why does it make so much noise?"
>
> Why doesn't it make some noise?
>
> 1. A young lady was walking slowly in the middle of the road. I had to drive as slowly as she walk.
>
> 2. An old lady was standing in front of my parked car, looking forward. I had to move slowly back and forth couple of time to catch her attention. Even my backing sound did not catch her attention.
>
> I was told to resist using the horn, which is not too polite for pedestrian.
>
> I need an ICE engine noise simulator.
>
>

First gen Chevy Volt had a "polite horn" on the end of the turn signal
lever that just went "Beep beep boop" instead of the typically
aggressive Chevy horn.

It was removed for the second gen IDK why, nobody hears the "air
conditioner" generated noise very well.

In the final model year they again changed it to some kind of New Age music:

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63_i3mZ7Rkk>

I'd still like the beep-booper back though. Move on, move on, move on:

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63_i3mZ7Rkk>

But as engineers we can install something like that ourselves:

<https://youtu.be/lv8wqnk_TsA>

On 4/29/2021 3:33 PM, bitrex wrote:
> On 4/29/2021 3:14 PM, Ed Lee wrote:
>> On Thursday, April 29, 2021 at 9:46:15 AM UTC-7,
>> gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> Everything is perspective. If EVs were the norm with virtually every
>>> home having level 2 charging available and everyone using the same
>>> charging interface, imagine what it would be like to have to switch
>>> to ICE.
>>>
>>> "Oil change? Why does the oil need to be changed, what's wrong with
>>> it? Isn't that a warranty repair?"
>>>
>>> " I have to go where to find fuel for the car? That's at least 10
>>> blocks!"
>>>
>>> "Why does it make so much noise?"
>>
>> Why doesn't it make some noise?
>>
>> 1. A young lady was walking slowly in the middle of the road.  I had
>> to drive as slowly as she walk.
>>
>> 2. An old lady was standing in front of my parked car, looking
>> forward.  I had to move slowly back and forth couple of time to catch
>> her attention.  Even my backing sound did not catch her attention.
>>
>> I was told to resist using the horn, which is not too polite for
>> pedestrian.
>>
>> I need an ICE engine noise simulator.
>>
>
> First gen Chevy Volt had a "polite horn" on the end of the turn signal
> lever that just went "Beep beep boop" instead of the typically
> aggressive Chevy horn.
>
> It was removed for the second gen IDK why, nobody hears the "air
> conditioner" generated noise very well.
>
> In the final model year they again changed it to some kind of New Age
> music:
>
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63_i3mZ7Rkk>
>
> I'd still like the beep-booper back though. Move on, move on, move on:
>
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63_i3mZ7Rkk>

Sorry this link should be: <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKC0k-Luzxw>

On Thu, 29 Apr 2021 12:14:43 -0700 (PDT), Ed Lee
<edward.ming.lee@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, April 29, 2021 at 9:46:15 AM UTC-7, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
>> Everything is perspective. If EVs were the norm with virtually every home having level 2 charging available and everyone using the same charging interface, imagine what it would be like to have to switch to ICE.
>>
>> "Oil change? Why does the oil need to be changed, what's wrong with it? Isn't that a warranty repair?"
>>
>> " I have to go where to find fuel for the car? That's at least 10 blocks!"
>>
>> "Why does it make so much noise?"
>
>Why doesn't it make some noise?
>
>1. A young lady was walking slowly in the middle of the road. I had to drive as slowly as she walk.
>
>2. An old lady was standing in front of my parked car, looking forward. I had to move slowly back and forth couple of time to catch her attention. Even my backing sound did not catch her attention.
>
>I was told to resist using the horn, which is not too polite for pedestrian.
>
>I need an ICE engine noise simulator.
>

I read that about 20% of electric car owners buy a ic-engine
replacement.

I wonder if the Tesla is an enthusiasts car, like the PT Cruiser. Once
everyone who wanted a Cruiser had one, sales stopped. Other cars, like
Smarts and Miatas, had similar popularity/fad dynamics. And those
halfway pickup truck things.

There's an electric Harley, which is silent. Don't people buy hogs to
make noise?

On 4/29/2021 3:36 PM, John Larkin wrote:
> On Thu, 29 Apr 2021 12:14:43 -0700 (PDT), Ed Lee
> <edward.ming.lee@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Thursday, April 29, 2021 at 9:46:15 AM UTC-7, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> Everything is perspective. If EVs were the norm with virtually every home having level 2 charging available and everyone using the same charging interface, imagine what it would be like to have to switch to ICE.
>>>
>>> "Oil change? Why does the oil need to be changed, what's wrong with it? Isn't that a warranty repair?"
>>>
>>> " I have to go where to find fuel for the car? That's at least 10 blocks!"
>>>
>>> "Why does it make so much noise?"
>>
>> Why doesn't it make some noise?
>>
>> 1. A young lady was walking slowly in the middle of the road. I had to drive as slowly as she walk.
>>
>> 2. An old lady was standing in front of my parked car, looking forward. I had to move slowly back and forth couple of time to catch her attention. Even my backing sound did not catch her attention.
>>
>> I was told to resist using the horn, which is not too polite for pedestrian.
>>
>> I need an ICE engine noise simulator.
>>
>
> I read that about 20% of electric car owners buy a ic-engine
> replacement.

Sounds like nonsense. Does it pull data from the CANBUS on "throttle"
position, motor load, velocity and torque etc. and run a virtual engine
blending sound files to generate the audio?

Not an unsolvable problem and It's likely some automaker has a patent on
an implementation but doesn't sound cheap as an aftermarket product.

> I wonder if the Tesla is an enthusiasts car, like the PT Cruiser. Once
> everyone who wanted a Cruiser had one, sales stopped. Other cars, like
> Smarts and Miatas, had similar popularity/fad dynamics. And those
> halfway pickup truck things.
>
> There's an electric Harley, which is silent. Don't people buy hogs to
> make noise?
>

Like probably not the _only_ reason...

In article <553a90fe-bd2d-43b8-aba9-091ddadfe170n@googlegroups.com>,
edward.ming.lee@gmail.com says...
>
> On Thursday, April 29, 2021 at 9:46:15 AM UTC-7, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Everything is perspective. If EVs were the norm with virtually every home having level 2 charging available and everyone using the same charging interface, imagine what it would be like to have to switch to ICE.
> >
> > "Oil change? Why does the oil need to be changed, what's wrong with it? Isn't that a warranty repair?"
> >
> > " I have to go where to find fuel for the car? That's at least 10 blocks!"
> >
> > "Why does it make so much noise?"
>
> Why doesn't it make some noise?
>
> 1. A young lady was walking slowly in the middle of the road. I had to drive as slowly as she walk.
>
> 2. An old lady was standing in front of my parked car, looking forward. I had to move slowly back and forth couple of time to catch her attention. Even my backing sound did not catch her attention.
>
> I was told to resist using the horn, which is not too polite for pedestrian.
>
> I need an ICE engine noise simulator.
>

Why can't the "horn" make an apologetic cough? I'm sure I've had engines
do something similar...

On Thursday, April 29, 2021 at 1:18:14 PM UTC-7, Mike Coon wrote:
> In article <553a90fe-bd2d-43b8...@googlegroups.com>,
> edward....@gmail.com says...
> >
> > On Thursday, April 29, 2021 at 9:46:15 AM UTC-7, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > Everything is perspective. If EVs were the norm with virtually every home having level 2 charging available and everyone using the same charging interface, imagine what it would be like to have to switch to ICE.
> > >
> > > "Oil change? Why does the oil need to be changed, what's wrong with it? Isn't that a warranty repair?"
> > >
> > > " I have to go where to find fuel for the car? That's at least 10 blocks!"
> > >
> > > "Why does it make so much noise?"
> >
> > Why doesn't it make some noise?
> >
> > 1. A young lady was walking slowly in the middle of the road. I had to drive as slowly as she walk.
> >
> > 2. An old lady was standing in front of my parked car, looking forward. I had to move slowly back and forth couple of time to catch her attention. Even my backing sound did not catch her attention.
> >
> > I was told to resist using the horn, which is not too polite for pedestrian.
> >
> > I need an ICE engine noise simulator.
> >
> Why can't the "horn" make an apologetic cough? I'm sure I've had engines
> do something similar...

Or just adjustable volume. At close range, horn is very annoying for pedestrian. I am aware of an assault with a deadly weapon case from pedestrian started with the driver horning.

On Thu, 29 Apr 2021 14:52:33 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

>On 4/29/2021 2:25 PM, bitrex wrote:
>> On 4/29/2021 12:46 PM, Rick C wrote:
>>> Everything is perspective.  If EVs were the norm with virtually every
>>> home having level 2 charging available and everyone using the same
>>> charging interface, imagine what it would be like to have to switch to
>>> ICE.
>>>
>>> "Oil change?  Why does the oil need to be changed, what's wrong with
>>> it?  Isn't that a warranty repair?"
>>>
>>> " I have to go where to find fuel for the car?  That's at least 10
>>> blocks!"
>>>
>>> "Why does it make so much noise?"
>>>
>>> "Why does it smell so bad?  Can I just plug up that exhaust pipe?
>>> Maybe those fumes should be captured rather than set free in the air?"
>>>
>>> I remember back in 2017 when I was looking at EVs and the Chevy dealer
>>> didn't have much to say about charging, "Yes, charging happens".  Now
>>> GM is talking about an integrated network even though it is just a way
>>> to pay for electrons on multiple networks.  It doesn't even include
>>> Electrify America.  At one point GM was talking about working with
>>> Bechtel about a charging network.
>>>
>>> I guess by the time they have a few serious contenders on the market
>>> this may be straightened out.  At least the charging connector is
>>> semi-standardized now.
>>>
>>> Imagine how bad it would be to drive a hydrogen powered car!
>>>
>>
>> Chevy Bolt won some "Best of" award for 2021 which naturally infuriated
>> the Musk fan club.
>>
>> Tesla is the best EV to get if you're spending $40,000+ on a new car
>> cash or finance, or want to lease a base trim Model 3 at $6000 down,
>> $359 a month. That is to say all their products are out of the price
>> range of 90% of car shoppers.
>
>Forgot to add that Tesla owners seem to prefer it this way, it's a
>luxury brand.

"These guys are losing money selling cars."

Tesla makes money reselling regulatory credits and gambling on
bitcoins.

On 4/29/2021 8:56 PM, John Larkin wrote:
> On Thu, 29 Apr 2021 14:52:33 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
>
>> On 4/29/2021 2:25 PM, bitrex wrote:
>>> On 4/29/2021 12:46 PM, Rick C wrote:
>>>> Everything is perspective.  If EVs were the norm with virtually every
>>>> home having level 2 charging available and everyone using the same
>>>> charging interface, imagine what it would be like to have to switch to
>>>> ICE.
>>>>
>>>> "Oil change?  Why does the oil need to be changed, what's wrong with
>>>> it?  Isn't that a warranty repair?"
>>>>
>>>> " I have to go where to find fuel for the car?  That's at least 10
>>>> blocks!"
>>>>
>>>> "Why does it make so much noise?"
>>>>
>>>> "Why does it smell so bad?  Can I just plug up that exhaust pipe?
>>>> Maybe those fumes should be captured rather than set free in the air?"
>>>>
>>>> I remember back in 2017 when I was looking at EVs and the Chevy dealer
>>>> didn't have much to say about charging, "Yes, charging happens".  Now
>>>> GM is talking about an integrated network even though it is just a way
>>>> to pay for electrons on multiple networks.  It doesn't even include
>>>> Electrify America.  At one point GM was talking about working with
>>>> Bechtel about a charging network.
>>>>
>>>> I guess by the time they have a few serious contenders on the market
>>>> this may be straightened out.  At least the charging connector is
>>>> semi-standardized now.
>>>>
>>>> Imagine how bad it would be to drive a hydrogen powered car!
>>>>
>>>
>>> Chevy Bolt won some "Best of" award for 2021 which naturally infuriated
>>> the Musk fan club.
>>>
>>> Tesla is the best EV to get if you're spending $40,000+ on a new car
>>> cash or finance, or want to lease a base trim Model 3 at $6000 down,
>>> $359 a month. That is to say all their products are out of the price
>>> range of 90% of car shoppers.
>>
>> Forgot to add that Tesla owners seem to prefer it this way, it's a
>> luxury brand.
>
> "These guys are losing money selling cars."
>
> Tesla makes money reselling regulatory credits and gambling on
> bitcoins.
>

You can stay in business a long time losing money on selling luxury
cars, though. Lamborghini lost money selling high-end cars for years or
decades, maybe, before VW Gruppe finally bought them out.

On 4/29/2021 8:56 PM, John Larkin wrote:
> On Thu, 29 Apr 2021 14:52:33 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
>
>> On 4/29/2021 2:25 PM, bitrex wrote:
>>> On 4/29/2021 12:46 PM, Rick C wrote:
>>>> Everything is perspective.  If EVs were the norm with virtually every
>>>> home having level 2 charging available and everyone using the same
>>>> charging interface, imagine what it would be like to have to switch to
>>>> ICE.
>>>>
>>>> "Oil change?  Why does the oil need to be changed, what's wrong with
>>>> it?  Isn't that a warranty repair?"
>>>>
>>>> " I have to go where to find fuel for the car?  That's at least 10
>>>> blocks!"
>>>>
>>>> "Why does it make so much noise?"
>>>>
>>>> "Why does it smell so bad?  Can I just plug up that exhaust pipe?
>>>> Maybe those fumes should be captured rather than set free in the air?"
>>>>
>>>> I remember back in 2017 when I was looking at EVs and the Chevy dealer
>>>> didn't have much to say about charging, "Yes, charging happens".  Now
>>>> GM is talking about an integrated network even though it is just a way
>>>> to pay for electrons on multiple networks.  It doesn't even include
>>>> Electrify America.  At one point GM was talking about working with
>>>> Bechtel about a charging network.
>>>>
>>>> I guess by the time they have a few serious contenders on the market
>>>> this may be straightened out.  At least the charging connector is
>>>> semi-standardized now.
>>>>
>>>> Imagine how bad it would be to drive a hydrogen powered car!
>>>>
>>>
>>> Chevy Bolt won some "Best of" award for 2021 which naturally infuriated
>>> the Musk fan club.
>>>
>>> Tesla is the best EV to get if you're spending $40,000+ on a new car
>>> cash or finance, or want to lease a base trim Model 3 at $6000 down,
>>> $359 a month. That is to say all their products are out of the price
>>> range of 90% of car shoppers.
>>
>> Forgot to add that Tesla owners seem to prefer it this way, it's a
>> luxury brand.
>
> "These guys are losing money selling cars."
>
> Tesla makes money reselling regulatory credits and gambling on
> bitcoins.
>

A real Marxist would be uninterested in what car any particular person
drives; whether they drive a zero-emissions luxury Tesla that makes them
feel good about saving the Earth or an F-450 that gets 4 mpg, or whether
they use paper or plastic at the store because the glossy sign tells
them it's better to use paper. It's of no interest to them. "Fuck the
machines, we want the machines that are making them" is an expression.

But since I would be unlikely to be a very good Marxist by any measure I
will continue to drive my "budget"-priced not-electric, not-gas sedan
like the snob I am. or whatever.

On Thursday, April 29, 2021 at 3:36:39 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
> On Thu, 29 Apr 2021 12:14:43 -0700 (PDT), Ed Lee
> <edward....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Thursday, April 29, 2021 at 9:46:15 AM UTC-7, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> Everything is perspective. If EVs were the norm with virtually every home having level 2 charging available and everyone using the same charging interface, imagine what it would be like to have to switch to ICE.
> >>
> >> "Oil change? Why does the oil need to be changed, what's wrong with it? Isn't that a warranty repair?"
> >>
> >> " I have to go where to find fuel for the car? That's at least 10 blocks!"
> >>
> >> "Why does it make so much noise?"
> >
> >Why doesn't it make some noise?
> >
> >1. A young lady was walking slowly in the middle of the road. I had to drive as slowly as she walk.
> >
> >2. An old lady was standing in front of my parked car, looking forward. I had to move slowly back and forth couple of time to catch her attention. Even my backing sound did not catch her attention.
> >
> >I was told to resist using the horn, which is not too polite for pedestrian.
> >
> >I need an ICE engine noise simulator.
> >
> I read that about 20% of electric car owners buy a ic-engine
> replacement.
>
> I wonder if the Tesla is an enthusiasts car, like the PT Cruiser. Once
> everyone who wanted a Cruiser had one, sales stopped. Other cars, like
> Smarts and Miatas, had similar popularity/fad dynamics. And those
> halfway pickup truck things.
>
> There's an electric Harley, which is silent. Don't people buy hogs to
> make noise?

Exactly. It is just a matter of time before gas stations no longer sell gas, truck stops will not sell diesel, the air will clear and the silence of life will settle over the land. Well, except for the yahoos raising hell a few doors down with their loud music the entire cove has to listen to.

But it won't be Harleys. In ten years or so you'll have to drive so far to buy gas that a Harley can't make it from one station to another. Motorcycles usually don't have much range. I guess one could tow a gas trailer behind.

--

Rick C.

- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Thursday, April 29, 2021 at 3:48:29 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
> On 4/29/2021 3:36 PM, John Larkin wrote:
> >
> > There's an electric Harley, which is silent. Don't people buy hogs to
> > make noise?
> >
> Like probably not the _only_ reason...

For plenty of them it is. Absolutely.

--

Rick C.

+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Rick C wrote:

> John Larkin wrote:

>> I read that about 20% of electric car owners buy a ic-engine
>> replacement.
>>
>> I wonder if the Tesla is an enthusiasts car, like the PT Cruiser. Once
>> everyone who wanted a Cruiser had one, sales stopped. Other cars, like
>> Smarts and Miatas, had similar popularity/fad dynamics. And those
>> halfway pickup truck things.
>>
>> There's an electric Harley, which is silent. Don't people buy hogs to
>> make noise?
>
> Exactly. It is just a matter of time before gas stations no longer sell
> gas, truck stops will not sell diesel, the air will clear and the
> silence of life will settle over the land. Well, except for the yahoos
> raising hell a few doors down with their loud music the entire cove has
> to listen to.
>
> But it won't be Harleys. In ten years or so you'll have to drive so far
> to buy gas that a Harley can't make it from one station to another.
> Motorcycles usually don't have much range. I guess one could tow a gas
> trailer behind.

That's weird...

On Thursday, April 29, 2021 at 10:48:58 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
> >
> A real Marxist would be uninterested in what car any particular person
> drives; whether they drive a zero-emissions luxury Tesla that makes them
> feel good about saving the Earth or an F-450 that gets 4 mpg, or whether
> they use paper or plastic at the store because the glossy sign tells
> them it's better to use paper. It's of no interest to them. "Fuck the
> machines, we want the machines that are making them" is an expression.
>
> But since I would be unlikely to be a very good Marxist by any measure I
> will continue to drive my "budget"-priced not-electric, not-gas sedan
> like the snob I am. or whatever.

Whenever people talk about driving a Tesla because they want to "virtue signal" or whatever, I realize they have never driven a Tesla, not in a meaningful way. I'm looking at relocation to Puerto Rico and I was thinking I'd leave the car here, but transporting the car is not that much money. It's a nice car in so many ways. By the time the Harleys can't find a gas station within range EVs will be under $20,000 and the fuel savings will be enough that no one can afford to drive an ICE.

--

Rick C.

-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Rick C wrote:

> I'm looking at relocation to Puerto Rico

That sounds fun, to hear about.

On 4/30/2021 1:15 AM, Rick C wrote:
> On Thursday, April 29, 2021 at 10:48:58 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
>>>
>> A real Marxist would be uninterested in what car any particular person
>> drives; whether they drive a zero-emissions luxury Tesla that makes them
>> feel good about saving the Earth or an F-450 that gets 4 mpg, or whether
>> they use paper or plastic at the store because the glossy sign tells
>> them it's better to use paper. It's of no interest to them. "Fuck the
>> machines, we want the machines that are making them" is an expression.
>>
>> But since I would be unlikely to be a very good Marxist by any measure I
>> will continue to drive my "budget"-priced not-electric, not-gas sedan
>> like the snob I am. or whatever.
>
> Whenever people talk about driving a Tesla because they want to "virtue signal" or whatever, I realize they have never driven a Tesla, not in a meaningful way. I'm looking at relocation to Puerto Rico and I was thinking I'd leave the car here, but transporting the car is not that much money. It's a nice car in so many ways. By the time the Harleys can't find a gas station within range EVs will be under $20,000 and the fuel savings will be enough that no one can afford to drive an ICE.
>

What makes you think anyone will ever make an EV under 20k for domestic
sale? The low end of the market particularly cars is a thankless job and
margins are thin.

Aside from some brands like Mitsubishi and Daewoo and some of the
Chinese and Indian producers for purchase in those countries that's a
market segment everyone else want to get out of, not get into. New car
prices for cutting-edge cars go _up_, they don't go _down_.

On 4/30/2021 1:15 AM, Rick C wrote:
> On Thursday, April 29, 2021 at 10:48:58 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
>>>
>> A real Marxist would be uninterested in what car any particular person
>> drives; whether they drive a zero-emissions luxury Tesla that makes them
>> feel good about saving the Earth or an F-450 that gets 4 mpg, or whether
>> they use paper or plastic at the store because the glossy sign tells
>> them it's better to use paper. It's of no interest to them. "Fuck the
>> machines, we want the machines that are making them" is an expression.
>>
>> But since I would be unlikely to be a very good Marxist by any measure I
>> will continue to drive my "budget"-priced not-electric, not-gas sedan
>> like the snob I am. or whatever.
>
> Whenever people talk about driving a Tesla because they want to "virtue signal" or whatever, I realize they have never driven a Tesla, not in a meaningful way. I'm looking at relocation to Puerto Rico and I was thinking I'd leave the car here, but transporting the car is not that much money. It's a nice car in so many ways. By the time the Harleys can't find a gas station within range EVs will be under $20,000 and the fuel savings will be enough that no one can afford to drive an ICE.
>

An alternative take that's not any more or less plausible than that Elon
Musk fever-dream: The age of the personal automobile is ending. Personal
automobiles will become the playthings of the very wealthy like horses
are today.

They'll be replaced for most people with transport-as-a-service,
self-driving taxis, mass transit, bicycles, or walking, depending. For
the majority of the world's population this will probably be an
improvement as they've never owned a personal automobile anyway and
chances are they never will.

On Friday, April 30, 2021 at 1:27:36 AM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
> On 4/30/2021 1:15 AM, Rick C wrote:
> > On Thursday, April 29, 2021 at 10:48:58 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
> >>>
> >> A real Marxist would be uninterested in what car any particular person
> >> drives; whether they drive a zero-emissions luxury Tesla that makes them
> >> feel good about saving the Earth or an F-450 that gets 4 mpg, or whether
> >> they use paper or plastic at the store because the glossy sign tells
> >> them it's better to use paper. It's of no interest to them. "Fuck the
> >> machines, we want the machines that are making them" is an expression.
> >>
> >> But since I would be unlikely to be a very good Marxist by any measure I
> >> will continue to drive my "budget"-priced not-electric, not-gas sedan
> >> like the snob I am. or whatever.
> >
> > Whenever people talk about driving a Tesla because they want to "virtue signal" or whatever, I realize they have never driven a Tesla, not in a meaningful way. I'm looking at relocation to Puerto Rico and I was thinking I'd leave the car here, but transporting the car is not that much money. It's a nice car in so many ways. By the time the Harleys can't find a gas station within range EVs will be under $20,000 and the fuel savings will be enough that no one can afford to drive an ICE.
> >
> What makes you think anyone will ever make an EV under 20k for domestic
> sale? The low end of the market particularly cars is a thankless job and
> margins are thin.

That is such a silly thing to say. If it's so terrible, why would anyone make low end cars at all? Simple, that's where the volume is. Very few car companies make only high end cars. For every $50,000 car sold there are a lot more $20,000 cars sold. Right now people are buying $35-$40,000 cars because there are none in the US at $20,000.

> Aside from some brands like Mitsubishi and Daewoo and some of the
> Chinese and Indian producers for purchase in those countries that's a
> market segment everyone else want to get out of, not get into. New car
> prices for cutting-edge cars go _up_, they don't go _down_.

Again, rather silly thing to say. It's very easy to get out of a car market, just stop making those cars!

You totally miss the point. In even just 5 years, EVs won't be "cutting edge" anymore and it will be about price points. In 10 years batteries will have advanced enough that an EV will be cheaper than an ICE for anything other than the lowest priced cars and the cost of operating an EV will more than make up for that easily.

That is the point where there are so few ICE left on the roads that half the gas stations will have turned into ice cream parlors or 7-11s. I would really like to be in the room when the big chain gas stations are planning their futures.

What I'm really wondering about is if this transition will be like the impact of quartz digital devices on the watch market. It didn't take long at all for the Swiss to lose dominance in the watch market. Something similar could happen with EVs where some automakers simply can't make the transition and fade away.

BTW, it is just plain silly to think the low end EV cost is going to rise in the next 40 years unless there is some major disaster affecting a vital resource. EVs will continue to drop in price for the foreseeable future.

--

Rick C.

-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Friday, April 30, 2021 at 1:38:55 AM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
> On 4/30/2021 1:15 AM, Rick C wrote:
> > On Thursday, April 29, 2021 at 10:48:58 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
> >>>
> >> A real Marxist would be uninterested in what car any particular person
> >> drives; whether they drive a zero-emissions luxury Tesla that makes them
> >> feel good about saving the Earth or an F-450 that gets 4 mpg, or whether
> >> they use paper or plastic at the store because the glossy sign tells
> >> them it's better to use paper. It's of no interest to them. "Fuck the
> >> machines, we want the machines that are making them" is an expression.
> >>
> >> But since I would be unlikely to be a very good Marxist by any measure I
> >> will continue to drive my "budget"-priced not-electric, not-gas sedan
> >> like the snob I am. or whatever.
> >
> > Whenever people talk about driving a Tesla because they want to "virtue signal" or whatever, I realize they have never driven a Tesla, not in a meaningful way. I'm looking at relocation to Puerto Rico and I was thinking I'd leave the car here, but transporting the car is not that much money. It's a nice car in so many ways. By the time the Harleys can't find a gas station within range EVs will be under $20,000 and the fuel savings will be enough that no one can afford to drive an ICE.
> >
> An alternative take that's not any more or less plausible than that Elon
> Musk fever-dream: The age of the personal automobile is ending. Personal
> automobiles will become the playthings of the very wealthy like horses
> are today.

That is entirely realistic. There are no small number of people in cities who don't have cars and use one of the car services to share cars for shopping or whatever. Once cars are self driving this will be greatly enhanced by the cars not needing to sit around waiting for someone in the local area to come to them like rental vehicles. Instead the cars will operate like taxis coming to the user.

Not saying this will be any time soon. I think Elon said it would be the end of 2020 which was BS clearly. But maybe in 5 or 10 years. It's not an easy problem to solve.

> They'll be replaced for most people with transport-as-a-service,
> self-driving taxis, mass transit, bicycles, or walking, depending. For
> the majority of the world's population this will probably be an
> improvement as they've never owned a personal automobile anyway and
> chances are they never will.

Maybe. But if you can't afford to own a car, you likely can't afford to use/share a car very often either. Mass transit is about the low cost end of transportation and that's still not inexpensive. But in comparison to owning a car it is cheaper.

--

Rick C.

+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On 4/30/2021 3:11 AM, Rick C wrote:
> On Friday, April 30, 2021 at 1:38:55 AM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
>> On 4/30/2021 1:15 AM, Rick C wrote:
>>> On Thursday, April 29, 2021 at 10:48:58 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
>>>>>
>>>> A real Marxist would be uninterested in what car any particular person
>>>> drives; whether they drive a zero-emissions luxury Tesla that makes them
>>>> feel good about saving the Earth or an F-450 that gets 4 mpg, or whether
>>>> they use paper or plastic at the store because the glossy sign tells
>>>> them it's better to use paper. It's of no interest to them. "Fuck the
>>>> machines, we want the machines that are making them" is an expression.
>>>>
>>>> But since I would be unlikely to be a very good Marxist by any measure I
>>>> will continue to drive my "budget"-priced not-electric, not-gas sedan
>>>> like the snob I am. or whatever.
>>>
>>> Whenever people talk about driving a Tesla because they want to "virtue signal" or whatever, I realize they have never driven a Tesla, not in a meaningful way. I'm looking at relocation to Puerto Rico and I was thinking I'd leave the car here, but transporting the car is not that much money. It's a nice car in so many ways. By the time the Harleys can't find a gas station within range EVs will be under $20,000 and the fuel savings will be enough that no one can afford to drive an ICE.
>>>
>> An alternative take that's not any more or less plausible than that Elon
>> Musk fever-dream: The age of the personal automobile is ending. Personal
>> automobiles will become the playthings of the very wealthy like horses
>> are today.
>
> That is entirely realistic. There are no small number of people in cities who don't have cars and use one of the car services to share cars for shopping or whatever. Once cars are self driving this will be greatly enhanced by the cars not needing to sit around waiting for someone in the local area to come to them like rental vehicles. Instead the cars will operate like taxis coming to the user.
>
> Not saying this will be any time soon. I think Elon said it would be the end of 2020 which was BS clearly. But maybe in 5 or 10 years. It's not an easy problem to solve.

Sort of assumes there's anyone really trying to solve any kind of
overarching "problem" in the auto industry. There are car companies,
they make cars and they want to sell cars. The one that make gas cars
and electric cars would like to sell a lot of gas and electric cars. The
ones that just make electric cars like Tesla would like to sell a lot of
those. The "problem" is how do we make next year's model so that we make
more money on it than the previous one, or for Tesla just how do we
consistently make some cash selling cars.

IMO they're not really deeply invested in this long term
shift-the-paradigm stuff despite all the PR to the contrary, they wanna
sell cars. That's what they do. If at some point it seems more
profitable to do something else they may do that but not before. If the
paradigm shifts then it shifts, if it don't it don't, they finally don't
have the power to shape how the future goes as much as is popularly
imagined by the PR-bedazzled public.

>> They'll be replaced for most people with transport-as-a-service,
>> self-driving taxis, mass transit, bicycles, or walking, depending. For
>> the majority of the world's population this will probably be an
>> improvement as they've never owned a personal automobile anyway and
>> chances are they never will.
>
> Maybe. But if you can't afford to own a car, you likely can't afford to use/share a car very often either. Mass transit is about the low cost end of transportation and that's still not inexpensive. But in comparison to owning a car it is cheaper.
>

On Fri, 30 Apr 2021 00:02:40 -0700 (PDT), Rick C
<gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, April 30, 2021 at 1:27:36 AM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:

>> What makes you think anyone will ever make an EV under 20k for domestic
>> sale? The low end of the market particularly cars is a thankless job and
>> margins are thin.

What makes you think that in the long run the EV would be more
expensive than an ICE ?

The EV drive train can be much simpler. You just need two or four
motors directly at the wheels, driven by 2-4 VFDs. Ultimately a VFD
can be made with a single IC controlling a few big IGBT/FETs. A few
more power transistors are required for charging.

At least in some pictures of Tesla electronics contained big PCBs full
with components, no wonder it costs so much, Most of it could be
integrated into a single chip.

>
>That is such a silly thing to say. If it's so terrible, why would anyone make low end cars at all? Simple, that's where the volume is. Very few car companies make only high end cars. For every $50,000 car sold there are a lot more $20,000 cars sold. Right now people are buying $35-$40,000 cars because there are none in the US at $20,000.
>
>
>> Aside from some brands like Mitsubishi and Daewoo and some of the
>> Chinese and Indian producers for purchase in those countries that's a
>> market segment everyone else want to get out of, not get into. New car
>> prices for cutting-edge cars go _up_, they don't go _down_.
>
>Again, rather silly thing to say. It's very easy to get out of a car market, just stop making those cars!
>
>You totally miss the point. In even just 5 years, EVs won't be "cutting edge" anymore and it will be about price points. In 10 years batteries will have advanced enough that an EV will be cheaper than an ICE for anything other than the lowest priced cars and the cost of operating an EV will more than make up for that easily.

The most expensive component in an EV is the battery, but I expect the
price will go down, when new mines and battery factories are currently
being activated or at least planned.

On Friday, April 30, 2021 at 3:43:47 AM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
> On 4/30/2021 3:11 AM, Rick C wrote:
> > On Friday, April 30, 2021 at 1:38:55 AM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
> >> An alternative take that's not any more or less plausible than that Elon
> >> Musk fever-dream: The age of the personal automobile is ending. Personal
> >> automobiles will become the playthings of the very wealthy like horses
> >> are today.
> >
> > That is entirely realistic. There are no small number of people in cities who don't have cars and use one of the car services to share cars for shopping or whatever. Once cars are self driving this will be greatly enhanced by the cars not needing to sit around waiting for someone in the local area to come to them like rental vehicles. Instead the cars will operate like taxis coming to the user.
> >
> > Not saying this will be any time soon. I think Elon said it would be the end of 2020 which was BS clearly. But maybe in 5 or 10 years. It's not an easy problem to solve.
> Sort of assumes there's anyone really trying to solve any kind of
> overarching "problem" in the auto industry. There are car companies,
> they make cars and they want to sell cars. The one that make gas cars
> and electric cars would like to sell a lot of gas and electric cars. The
> ones that just make electric cars like Tesla would like to sell a lot of
> those. The "problem" is how do we make next year's model so that we make
> more money on it than the previous one, or for Tesla just how do we
> consistently make some cash selling cars.
>
> IMO they're not really deeply invested in this long term
> shift-the-paradigm stuff despite all the PR to the contrary, they wanna
> sell cars.

Yes, that's why I mentioned the paradigm shift example of watches in the first place. There will be auto companies (and other, auto related businesses) that simply do not shift weight onto the other foot quickly enough and end up stuck in the mud. The automotive industry has many, many failed companies that get bought up or just disappear. Usually it is the smaller ones, but sometimes the large ones don't keep up and become small ones that are swallowed up.

Pretty much the entire auto industry was caught on the wrong foot once by not having serious design efforts into battery EVs and they continue to play catch up in the rest of the EV paradigm. Even GM who brought an affordable EV to market ahead of Tesla's model 3 did it without the faintest glimmer of charging support by GM. That's why I talk about my visit to the Chevy dealer and the mention of "charging happens" as their lack of support. Here it is three years later and GM is finally grasping the concept that an EV requires a *total* solution. Auto makers have to be involved in the charging as well as the manufacturing and servicing.

One of the nice things about being in California is the way the state supports EV charging. Some locations have regulations that an apartment renter has the right to install an EV charger if they pay for it. With time this won't be required as it will become an expected feature of apartment living like the laundry room. It will only be after charging is routine that EVs will dominate.

--

Rick C.

++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209