On Mon, 22 Aug 2022 18:23:16 -0700 (PDT), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, August 22, 2022 at 8:02:02 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> On Mon, 22 Aug 2022 15:20:44 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Sunday, August 21, 2022 at 10:08:11 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> >> On Sun, 21 Aug 2022 18:11:45 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>> >> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >On Sunday, August 21, 2022 at 7:55:49 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> >> >> On Sun, 21 Aug 2022 17:00:25 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >On 8/21/2022 4:43 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> >> >> >> On Sun, 21 Aug 2022 14:45:05 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> >> >> >> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>> On 8/20/2022 12:56 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> >> >> >>>> On Sat, 20 Aug 2022 18:48:26 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
>> >> >> >>>> wrote:
>> >> >> >>>>> (:-) I served my apprenticeship as a Machinist and worked at the
>> >> >> >>>>> trade for some years and had never heard of a "safety switch" for a
>> >> >> >>>>> drill press and had to look it up on Youtube. Amazing! (:-)
>> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >>>> Drill Press NVR (no voltage release) Switch:
>> >> >> >>>> <https://www.google.com/search?q=drill+press+nvr+switch>
>> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >>>> "Save Fingers, Save Lives With A No-Voltage Release For The Shop"
>> >> >> >>>> <https://hackaday.com/2018/09/06/save-fingers-save-lives-with-a-no-voltage-release-for-the-shop/>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Argh. I wasn't paying attention when I selected the above link as an
>> >> >> >> NVR example. The author installed the NVR on a power strip. That's
>> >> >> >> not going to work because if two or more loads are drawing current at
>> >> >> >> the same time, unplugging one load is not going to trip the NVR. Only
>> >> >> >> if *ALL* the loads are disconnected will the NVR trip. It has to be
>> >> >> >> one NVR per load.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>>> If someone trips over the power cord and unplugs the source of power,
>> >> >> >>>> the drill press will not spin if someone else plugs the cord back into
>> >> >> >>>> the wall receptacle. I've never heard of anyone experiencing a
>> >> >> >>>> similar problem with a drill press.
>> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >>>> A foot switch would have been a better solution. Also, requiring that
>> >> >> >>>> the on/off switch on a drill press be easily reachable, such as on the
>> >> >> >>>> FRONT of the drill press, where turning it off does now involve
>> >> >> >>>> passing one's arm near the rotating spindle. On/off switches on the
>> >> >> >>>> side of the head are dangerous.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>> Agreed. On my home drill press, I installed an extension for the head
>> >> >> >>> mounted toggle switch. It's still far from perfect, but at least it's
>> >> >> >>> much easier to locate and operate.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> I have a Craftsman 15 1/2 inch drill press. The motor and light
>> >> >> >> switches are on the front of the head. I have no plans to install an
>> >> >> >> NVR switch. It looks something like this:
>> >> >> >> <https://aarauctions.com/live/images/auction-2320/medium-128988.0_1.jpg>
>> >> >> >> My previous drill press had the switches on the left side and an SSR
>> >> >> >> (solid state relay) inside the head. Something like this:
>> >> >> >> <http://bedroom-workshop.com/drill-chio/0drill-chio.html>
>> >> >> >> <http://bedroom-workshop.com/drill-chio/done-8.jpg>
>> >> >> >> It was easier for me to sell it than to fix it.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >Ours have the switches on the left side of the head which,
>> >> >> >since you mention it, may be a hard reach when one's right
>> >> >> >arm is mangled in the work. Then again that situation has
>> >> >> >never presented itself. (we do habitually lock the vise to
>> >> >> >the plate)
>> >> >> Correct. If you use a drill press correctly there is no requirement
>> >> >> for emergency switches and those who feel an emergency switch a
>> >> >> necessity should learn how to use the machine properly.
>> >> >> --
>> >> >> Cheers,
>> >> >>
>> >> >> John B.
>> >> >
>> >> >Hmmmm. Don't know about drill presses, but with table saws, the blade can catch on the wood for no reason at all. And create a projectile to hit you in the head. Or pull your fingers into the blade. Now of course you should keep your hands away from the blade. But with a table saw, you have to guide the wood into the blade for it to cut. And if the wood is only 6 inches wide, your hands are going to be less than 6 inches from the wood. John, your logic suggests no safety device is ever needed ever on any machine on earth if a machine is operated correctly and nothing out of the ordinary ever happens. Yet we have seatbelts on cars. And airbags on cars. And headrests on cars. Those would never ever be used if a car is always driven properly by everyone driving every car. In my short time on earth, I have discovered that does not happen.
>> >> I think you have a very vivid imagination. Saws running at the proper
>> >> speed don't, assuming a competent operator, catch and throw the work
>> >> "clean across the room" quite simply because you feed the work into
>> >> the saw slowly and only increase pressure on the work piece as the
>> >> blade is taking a full cut. and as for feeding tiny little pieces into
>> >> the blade by hand... if you do that then you are an idiot and deserve
>> >> everything that is going to happen to you.
>> >>
>> >> I would even go so far as to state that "no power tool can be made
>> >> totally safe when operated by an fool".
>> >> --
>> >> Cheers,
>> >>
>> >> John B.
>> >
>> >John, you don't have much work with a table saw cutting wood then. Tension built into wood is common. The tension is there based on how the tree grew and was cut. A tree with a big bend in the trunk has built in tension within the wood. A crooked tree. It will still be processed at the mill into straight pieces of wood. But when you cut it at certain places, the built in tension will release. And one edge of the wood will be pushed against the side of the blade and the blade will fling it back at you. Safety devices such as kickback pawls and the inline splitter, riving knife on a table saw help to reduce, eliminate, this possibility.
>> In fact I've been doing "wood work" from my earliest days. My father
>> built one house, a barn, a large workshop/garage and probably other
>> structures that I've forgotten (with me to help him).My Maternal
>> Grandfather got rich running saw mills. And I have built a number of
>> "furniture" type of things. I also worked as a gunsmith from time to
>> time and made wooden stocks for rifles. Not to mention the two years
>> of wood working and pattern making I did as part of my apprenticeship.
>>
>> So, yes, I do have some experience with wood (:-)
>>
>> Your explanation of built in stresses for lumber is, to say the best,
>> a bit far fetched. While wood certainly does tend to resist bending,
>> or have natural bends, else the Long Bow wouldn't have worked, the
>> idea that if you dare to cut a piece of wood it will somehow leap up
>> and hit you in the mouth is about as fanciful an idea as many of
>> Tommy's assertions.
>> --
>> Cheers,
>>
>> John B.
>
>Wrong John. Picture for you. Illustrating how it is easy to get kickback from a table saw when the internal stress in a board, while ripping, causes the kerf to close behind the blade and force the wood into the blade itself. Resulting in a possibility of kickback. Launching the board into the sawyer.
>
>https://www.woodmagazine.com/materials-guide/lumber/lumber-stress
>"Powerful internal stresses in this walnut board closed the kerf tightly as the board came off the blade. Fortunately, the riving knife prevented binding, burning, motor strain, and kickback."
>
>Riving knives help to prevent the wood from closing into the back of the blade after being cut. But there is still a possibility of kickback.

On Monday, August 22, 2022 at 10:14:49 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> On Mon, 22 Aug 2022 18:23:16 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Monday, August 22, 2022 at 8:02:02 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> >> On Mon, 22 Aug 2022 15:20:44 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> >> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On Sunday, August 21, 2022 at 10:08:11 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> >> >> On Sun, 21 Aug 2022 18:11:45 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> >> >> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >On Sunday, August 21, 2022 at 7:55:49 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> >> >> >> On Sun, 21 Aug 2022 17:00:25 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >On 8/21/2022 4:43 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> >> >> >> >> On Sun, 21 Aug 2022 14:45:05 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> >> >> >> >> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>> On 8/20/2022 12:56 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> >> >> >> >>>> On Sat, 20 Aug 2022 18:48:26 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
> >> >> >> >>>> wrote:
> >> >> >> >>>>> (:-) I served my apprenticeship as a Machinist and worked at the
> >> >> >> >>>>> trade for some years and had never heard of a "safety switch" for a
> >> >> >> >>>>> drill press and had to look it up on Youtube. Amazing! (:-)
> >> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >> >>>> Drill Press NVR (no voltage release) Switch:
> >> >> >> >>>> <https://www.google.com/search?q=drill+press+nvr+switch>
> >> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >> >>>> "Save Fingers, Save Lives With A No-Voltage Release For The Shop"
> >> >> >> >>>> <https://hackaday.com/2018/09/06/save-fingers-save-lives-with-a-no-voltage-release-for-the-shop/>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Argh. I wasn't paying attention when I selected the above link as an
> >> >> >> >> NVR example. The author installed the NVR on a power strip. That's
> >> >> >> >> not going to work because if two or more loads are drawing current at
> >> >> >> >> the same time, unplugging one load is not going to trip the NVR. Only
> >> >> >> >> if *ALL* the loads are disconnected will the NVR trip. It has to be
> >> >> >> >> one NVR per load.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>>> If someone trips over the power cord and unplugs the source of power,
> >> >> >> >>>> the drill press will not spin if someone else plugs the cord back into
> >> >> >> >>>> the wall receptacle. I've never heard of anyone experiencing a
> >> >> >> >>>> similar problem with a drill press.
> >> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >> >>>> A foot switch would have been a better solution. Also, requiring that
> >> >> >> >>>> the on/off switch on a drill press be easily reachable, such as on the
> >> >> >> >>>> FRONT of the drill press, where turning it off does now involve
> >> >> >> >>>> passing one's arm near the rotating spindle. On/off switches on the
> >> >> >> >>>> side of the head are dangerous.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>> Agreed. On my home drill press, I installed an extension for the head
> >> >> >> >>> mounted toggle switch. It's still far from perfect, but at least it's
> >> >> >> >>> much easier to locate and operate.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> I have a Craftsman 15 1/2 inch drill press. The motor and light
> >> >> >> >> switches are on the front of the head. I have no plans to install an
> >> >> >> >> NVR switch. It looks something like this:
> >> >> >> >> <https://aarauctions.com/live/images/auction-2320/medium-128988.0_1.jpg>
> >> >> >> >> My previous drill press had the switches on the left side and an SSR
> >> >> >> >> (solid state relay) inside the head. Something like this:
> >> >> >> >> <http://bedroom-workshop.com/drill-chio/0drill-chio.html>
> >> >> >> >> <http://bedroom-workshop.com/drill-chio/done-8.jpg>
> >> >> >> >> It was easier for me to sell it than to fix it.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >Ours have the switches on the left side of the head which,
> >> >> >> >since you mention it, may be a hard reach when one's right
> >> >> >> >arm is mangled in the work. Then again that situation has
> >> >> >> >never presented itself. (we do habitually lock the vise to
> >> >> >> >the plate)
> >> >> >> Correct. If you use a drill press correctly there is no requirement
> >> >> >> for emergency switches and those who feel an emergency switch a
> >> >> >> necessity should learn how to use the machine properly.
> >> >> >> --
> >> >> >> Cheers,
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> John B.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Hmmmm. Don't know about drill presses, but with table saws, the blade can catch on the wood for no reason at all. And create a projectile to hit you in the head. Or pull your fingers into the blade. Now of course you should keep your hands away from the blade. But with a table saw, you have to guide the wood into the blade for it to cut. And if the wood is only 6 inches wide, your hands are going to be less than 6 inches from the wood. John, your logic suggests no safety device is ever needed ever on any machine on earth if a machine is operated correctly and nothing out of the ordinary ever happens. Yet we have seatbelts on cars. And airbags on cars. And headrests on cars. Those would never ever be used if a car is always driven properly by everyone driving every car. In my short time on earth, I have discovered that does not happen.
> >> >> I think you have a very vivid imagination. Saws running at the proper
> >> >> speed don't, assuming a competent operator, catch and throw the work
> >> >> "clean across the room" quite simply because you feed the work into
> >> >> the saw slowly and only increase pressure on the work piece as the
> >> >> blade is taking a full cut. and as for feeding tiny little pieces into
> >> >> the blade by hand... if you do that then you are an idiot and deserve
> >> >> everything that is going to happen to you.
> >> >>
> >> >> I would even go so far as to state that "no power tool can be made
> >> >> totally safe when operated by an fool".
> >> >> --
> >> >> Cheers,
> >> >>
> >> >> John B.
> >> >
> >> >John, you don't have much work with a table saw cutting wood then. Tension built into wood is common. The tension is there based on how the tree grew and was cut. A tree with a big bend in the trunk has built in tension within the wood. A crooked tree. It will still be processed at the mill into straight pieces of wood. But when you cut it at certain places, the built in tension will release. And one edge of the wood will be pushed against the side of the blade and the blade will fling it back at you. Safety devices such as kickback pawls and the inline splitter, riving knife on a table saw help to reduce, eliminate, this possibility.
> >> In fact I've been doing "wood work" from my earliest days. My father
> >> built one house, a barn, a large workshop/garage and probably other
> >> structures that I've forgotten (with me to help him).My Maternal
> >> Grandfather got rich running saw mills. And I have built a number of
> >> "furniture" type of things. I also worked as a gunsmith from time to
> >> time and made wooden stocks for rifles. Not to mention the two years
> >> of wood working and pattern making I did as part of my apprenticeship.
> >>
> >> So, yes, I do have some experience with wood (:-)
> >>
> >> Your explanation of built in stresses for lumber is, to say the best,
> >> a bit far fetched. While wood certainly does tend to resist bending,
> >> or have natural bends, else the Long Bow wouldn't have worked, the
> >> idea that if you dare to cut a piece of wood it will somehow leap up
> >> and hit you in the mouth is about as fanciful an idea as many of
> >> Tommy's assertions.
> >> --
> >> Cheers,
> >>
> >> John B.
> >
> >Wrong John. Picture for you. Illustrating how it is easy to get kickback from a table saw when the internal stress in a board, while ripping, causes the kerf to close behind the blade and force the wood into the blade itself. Resulting in a possibility of kickback. Launching the board into the sawyer.
> >
> >https://www.woodmagazine.com/materials-guide/lumber/lumber-stress
> >"Powerful internal stresses in this walnut board closed the kerf tightly as the board came off the blade. Fortunately, the riving knife prevented binding, burning, motor strain, and kickback."
> >
> >Riving knives help to prevent the wood from closing into the back of the blade after being cut. But there is still a possibility of kickback.
> Ayup....do you know what "set" in a saw blade is? Or why it is used"
> Or that depending on the blade use that it may vary?
> Or is that another forgotten fact?
> --
> Cheers,
>
> John B.

On Mon, 22 Aug 2022 22:50:25 -0700 (PDT), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, August 22, 2022 at 10:14:49 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> On Mon, 22 Aug 2022 18:23:16 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Monday, August 22, 2022 at 8:02:02 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> >> On Mon, 22 Aug 2022 15:20:44 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>> >> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >On Sunday, August 21, 2022 at 10:08:11 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> >> >> On Sun, 21 Aug 2022 18:11:45 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>> >> >> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >On Sunday, August 21, 2022 at 7:55:49 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> >> >> >> On Sun, 21 Aug 2022 17:00:25 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >On 8/21/2022 4:43 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> >> >> >> >> On Sun, 21 Aug 2022 14:45:05 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> >> >> >> >> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >>> On 8/20/2022 12:56 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> >> >> >> >>>> On Sat, 20 Aug 2022 18:48:26 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
>> >> >> >> >>>> wrote:
>> >> >> >> >>>>> (:-) I served my apprenticeship as a Machinist and worked at the
>> >> >> >> >>>>> trade for some years and had never heard of a "safety switch" for a
>> >> >> >> >>>>> drill press and had to look it up on Youtube. Amazing! (:-)
>> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >> >>>> Drill Press NVR (no voltage release) Switch:
>> >> >> >> >>>> <https://www.google.com/search?q=drill+press+nvr+switch>
>> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >> >>>> "Save Fingers, Save Lives With A No-Voltage Release For The Shop"
>> >> >> >> >>>> <https://hackaday.com/2018/09/06/save-fingers-save-lives-with-a-no-voltage-release-for-the-shop/>
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> Argh. I wasn't paying attention when I selected the above link as an
>> >> >> >> >> NVR example. The author installed the NVR on a power strip. That's
>> >> >> >> >> not going to work because if two or more loads are drawing current at
>> >> >> >> >> the same time, unplugging one load is not going to trip the NVR. Only
>> >> >> >> >> if *ALL* the loads are disconnected will the NVR trip. It has to be
>> >> >> >> >> one NVR per load.
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >>>> If someone trips over the power cord and unplugs the source of power,
>> >> >> >> >>>> the drill press will not spin if someone else plugs the cord back into
>> >> >> >> >>>> the wall receptacle. I've never heard of anyone experiencing a
>> >> >> >> >>>> similar problem with a drill press.
>> >> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >> >>>> A foot switch would have been a better solution. Also, requiring that
>> >> >> >> >>>> the on/off switch on a drill press be easily reachable, such as on the
>> >> >> >> >>>> FRONT of the drill press, where turning it off does now involve
>> >> >> >> >>>> passing one's arm near the rotating spindle. On/off switches on the
>> >> >> >> >>>> side of the head are dangerous.
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >>> Agreed. On my home drill press, I installed an extension for the head
>> >> >> >> >>> mounted toggle switch. It's still far from perfect, but at least it's
>> >> >> >> >>> much easier to locate and operate.
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> I have a Craftsman 15 1/2 inch drill press. The motor and light
>> >> >> >> >> switches are on the front of the head. I have no plans to install an
>> >> >> >> >> NVR switch. It looks something like this:
>> >> >> >> >> <https://aarauctions.com/live/images/auction-2320/medium-128988.0_1.jpg>
>> >> >> >> >> My previous drill press had the switches on the left side and an SSR
>> >> >> >> >> (solid state relay) inside the head. Something like this:
>> >> >> >> >> <http://bedroom-workshop.com/drill-chio/0drill-chio.html>
>> >> >> >> >> <http://bedroom-workshop.com/drill-chio/done-8.jpg>
>> >> >> >> >> It was easier for me to sell it than to fix it.
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >Ours have the switches on the left side of the head which,
>> >> >> >> >since you mention it, may be a hard reach when one's right
>> >> >> >> >arm is mangled in the work. Then again that situation has
>> >> >> >> >never presented itself. (we do habitually lock the vise to
>> >> >> >> >the plate)
>> >> >> >> Correct. If you use a drill press correctly there is no requirement
>> >> >> >> for emergency switches and those who feel an emergency switch a
>> >> >> >> necessity should learn how to use the machine properly.
>> >> >> >> --
>> >> >> >> Cheers,
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> John B.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >Hmmmm. Don't know about drill presses, but with table saws, the blade can catch on the wood for no reason at all. And create a projectile to hit you in the head. Or pull your fingers into the blade. Now of course you should keep your hands away from the blade. But with a table saw, you have to guide the wood into the blade for it to cut. And if the wood is only 6 inches wide, your hands are going to be less than 6 inches from the wood. John, your logic suggests no safety device is ever needed ever on any machine on earth if a machine is operated correctly and nothing out of the ordinary ever happens. Yet we have seatbelts on cars. And airbags on cars. And headrests on cars. Those would never ever be used if a car is always driven properly by everyone driving every car. In my short time on earth, I have discovered that does not happen.
>> >> >> I think you have a very vivid imagination. Saws running at the proper
>> >> >> speed don't, assuming a competent operator, catch and throw the work
>> >> >> "clean across the room" quite simply because you feed the work into
>> >> >> the saw slowly and only increase pressure on the work piece as the
>> >> >> blade is taking a full cut. and as for feeding tiny little pieces into
>> >> >> the blade by hand... if you do that then you are an idiot and deserve
>> >> >> everything that is going to happen to you.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I would even go so far as to state that "no power tool can be made
>> >> >> totally safe when operated by an fool".
>> >> >> --
>> >> >> Cheers,
>> >> >>
>> >> >> John B.
>> >> >
>> >> >John, you don't have much work with a table saw cutting wood then. Tension built into wood is common. The tension is there based on how the tree grew and was cut. A tree with a big bend in the trunk has built in tension within the wood. A crooked tree. It will still be processed at the mill into straight pieces of wood. But when you cut it at certain places, the built in tension will release. And one edge of the wood will be pushed against the side of the blade and the blade will fling it back at you. Safety devices such as kickback pawls and the inline splitter, riving knife on a table saw help to reduce, eliminate, this possibility.
>> >> In fact I've been doing "wood work" from my earliest days. My father
>> >> built one house, a barn, a large workshop/garage and probably other
>> >> structures that I've forgotten (with me to help him).My Maternal
>> >> Grandfather got rich running saw mills. And I have built a number of
>> >> "furniture" type of things. I also worked as a gunsmith from time to
>> >> time and made wooden stocks for rifles. Not to mention the two years
>> >> of wood working and pattern making I did as part of my apprenticeship.
>> >>
>> >> So, yes, I do have some experience with wood (:-)
>> >>
>> >> Your explanation of built in stresses for lumber is, to say the best,
>> >> a bit far fetched. While wood certainly does tend to resist bending,
>> >> or have natural bends, else the Long Bow wouldn't have worked, the
>> >> idea that if you dare to cut a piece of wood it will somehow leap up
>> >> and hit you in the mouth is about as fanciful an idea as many of
>> >> Tommy's assertions.
>> >> --
>> >> Cheers,
>> >>
>> >> John B.
>> >
>> >Wrong John. Picture for you. Illustrating how it is easy to get kickback from a table saw when the internal stress in a board, while ripping, causes the kerf to close behind the blade and force the wood into the blade itself. Resulting in a possibility of kickback. Launching the board into the sawyer.
>> >
>> >https://www.woodmagazine.com/materials-guide/lumber/lumber-stress
>> >"Powerful internal stresses in this walnut board closed the kerf tightly as the board came off the blade. Fortunately, the riving knife prevented binding, burning, motor strain, and kickback."
>> >
>> >Riving knives help to prevent the wood from closing into the back of the blade after being cut. But there is still a possibility of kickback.
>> Ayup....do you know what "set" in a saw blade is? Or why it is used"
>> Or that depending on the blade use that it may vary?
>> Or is that another forgotten fact?
>> --
>> Cheers,
>>
>> John B.
>
>If by set you mean handsaws. Then it is the offset to each side of a handsaw's teeth. As for varying the set, I would assume a crosscut saw, crosscut teeth that are sharp and cutting the fibers, the set would be wider. And for a rip blade, where the teeth are chiseling the wood, the set would be closer together. Crosscut teeth are pointy to cut the fibers. Rip teeth are chisels to scoop the wood fibers. Rip teeth make a trough in the wood when cutting.

On Saturday, August 20, 2022 at 4:48:36 AM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
> On Sat, 20 Aug 2022 02:43:41 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Friday, August 19, 2022 at 4:22:20 PM UTC+2, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 8/19/2022 9:12 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >> > Two days ago my wife and I rode our tandem to my doctor's
> >> > office for a routine visit. When I mentioned that to a nurse
> >> > as we left, she said "Oh! Be safe!"
> >> >
> >> > And last night on TV I happened to see a short bit of a
> >> > lecture by travel writer Rick Steves. He said nowadays,
> >> > people leaving on a vacation seldom hear "Bon Voyage" or its
> >> > equivalent. Instead it's "Oh, have a safe trip!" - unless
> >> > it's "Really? You're going to Europe despite everything
> >> > that's going on?"
> >> >
> >> > People drive three ton vehicles with exploding inflatable
> >> > interiors to get their groceries because they are "safer."
> >> > Doorbells have been replaced by security cameras backed up
> >> > by semi-automatic weapons. Playgrounds don't have grass,
> >> > they have rubber surfaces and security cameras. Some kids
> >> > are not allowed out of their yards, and very few are allowed
> >> > to roam and explore the neighborhood or the woods.
> >> >
> >> > And of course, people wear body armor for ordinary bike
> >> > rides, and are told riding on an ordinary street is terribly
> >> > dangerous.
> >> >
> >> > So many fearful people!
> >> >
> >> +1
> >>
> >> And almost all of it is theater.
> >> Self defense training and/or a personal defense weapon is
> >> security. Video is data not security.
> >
> >At work we use those hobby knives a lot, like this one:
> >
> >https://www.bol.com/nl/nl/p/pard-afbreekmes-b-25-mm-pa69826/9200000128399327/?Referrer=ADVNLPPcef1a600cdbf9297004e301f08001126362&utm_source=1126362&utm_medium=Affiliates&utm_campaign=CPS&utm_content=txl
> >
> >One day I found a whole box of them on a table near my desk with a sign 'you may take these home'. I asked why. The answer was that you may not use them anymore at work and were replaced by knives with a automatic retractable blade. You have to hold down a button to be able to cut. WTF. They are awful to work with and 10 times more expensive. I asked if I was still allowed to eat with a metal knife and fork. I put 5 of them in my drawer of my desk en took two home. . We have a special department for this nonsense. They were also responsible for the 'safety' switch' on the drill press which makes drilling a hole more dangerous. It is crazy. It is all about liability.
> >
> >Lou
> (:-) I served my apprenticeship as a Machinist and worked at the
> trade for some years and had never heard of a "safety switch" for a
> drill press and had to look it up on Youtube. Amazing! (:-)
>
> --
> Cheers,
>
> John B.
I didn't know you were a trained machinist, John. That's really cool. I wish I had become a machinist rather than a lawyer. I went to law school only because I was young, lacked common sense and didn't know what else to do. I am sure I would have enjoyed being a machinist much more than practicing law.

On 8/22/2022 9:47 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 8/22/2022 9:43 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Mon, 22 Aug 2022 18:06:42 -0700 (PDT),
>> "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
>> <ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Monday, August 22, 2022 at 7:30:16 PM UTC-5, John B.
>>> wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 22 Aug 2022 15:49:13 -0700 (PDT),
>>>> "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Monday, August 22, 2022 at 2:24:42 AM UTC-5, John B.
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> On Sun, 21 Aug 2022 22:27:56 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
>>>>>> <je...@cruzio.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sun, 21 Aug 2022 18:11:45 -0700 (PDT),
>>>>>>> "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>>>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hmmmm. Don't know about drill presses, but with
>>>>>>>> table saws, the blade can catch on the wood for no
>>>>>>>> reason at all.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There's usually a reason. Nails, knot holes,
>>>>>>> misaligned work piece,
>>>>>>> loose guard rail, etc.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And create a projectile to hit you in the head.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yep. I use a push stick or block and try to stay out
>>>>>>> of the line of
>>>>>>> fire.
>>>>>>> <https://www.google.com/search?q=table+saw+push+stick&tbm=isch>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This video does a good job of explaining what can go
>>>>>>> wrong and what to
>>>>>>> do to prevent problems with a table saw:
>>>>>>> "How table saw kickback injuries occur, and how to
>>>>>>> STOP them!"
>>>>>>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8f8VWwtaudU> (8:22)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Your video is an example of someone that apparently
>>>>>> doesn't know what
>>>>>> he is doing. Example: you don't have the blade higher
>>>>>> above the table
>>>>>> then just a tiny bit above the thickness of the wood
>>>>>> you are sawing.
>>>>>
>>>>> I learned it is one full tooth including its gullet
>>>>> above the top of the wood. That is what I use. About
>>>>> 1/4 to 3/8 inch.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> You always use a guide and push stick, if necessary,
>>>>>> when sawing with
>>>>>> the grain and a (not sure of the name, maybe angle
>>>>>> bracket) which
>>>>>> slides in a slot in the table top and can be adjusted
>>>>>> to various
>>>>>> angles when cutting cross grain.
>>>>>
>>>>> Miter Sled. The slot/groove/channel is called a Miter
>>>>> Slot.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you are ripping a straight edge on a piece of oak.
>>>>> And you are ripping it down to 8 inches wide. You will
>>>>> almost certainly not be using a push stick nor a push
>>>>> block. When you are trying to rip a 10 foot long by 10
>>>>> inch wide board down to 10 feet by 8 inches wide. You
>>>>> will be moving your hands many times during the
>>>>> process. You cannot smoothly, continuously push the
>>>>> board into the blade if you are juggling a push block
>>>>> or stick and moving your hands at the same time. It
>>>>> will be hands only. Your hand will be within 2-3-4
>>>>> inches of the blade. Should be safe. Unless there is
>>>>> tension in the board and you release it when you are
>>>>> cutting into the board. And then it moves into the
>>>>> blade itself. And the blade throws the whole board back
>>>>> at you. But you are off to the side so do not get
>>>>> punched in the gut with the board. But the board flying
>>>>> backwards may also bump your arm and slide your
>>>>> fingers, which were 2-3 inches from the blade, into the
>>>>> blade.
>>>>>
>>>> Well, a 10 ft by, say 1 inch, by 10 inch oak board would
>>>> be quite
>>>> heavy,,, cured oak is in the vicinity of 45 lbs/cu. ft.
>>>> -- so
>>>> probably... (120 x 10)/144= 8 cu ft = 360 lbs.... I
>>>> would guess that
>>>> you will have a helper so one bloke would push the slab
>>>> into the saw
>>>> and the other bloke would pull it through and neither
>>>> would get closer
>>>> then a foot, or even further, of the saw blade.
>>>
>>> Your numbers or math are way way way off.
>>>
>>> 45 pounds per cubic foot.
>>>
>>> 10 feet long (120 inches)
>>> 1 inch thick, 0.08333333
>>> 10 inches wide, 0.833333
>>>
>>> 10 * 0.0833333 * 0.833333 = 0.694444 cubic feet of oak in
>>> a 10 foot x 10 inch x 1 inch board
>>> 0.694444 * 45 lbs/cuft = 31.25 pounds
>>>
>> Where are you getting those numbers" 1 cu.ft. = 144 sq in.
>>
>>> I own several oak boards that are 4/4 and about 10 feet
>>> long by 8 inches or so wide. I can easily pick them off
>>> the floor and move them around. It does take some
>>> muscle. But any teenage kid or older can easily move them.
>>>
>>> You messed up by converting the 10 feet into 120 when you
>>> multiplied it by 12 inches per foot. Don't do that when
>>> you are using cubic foot pounds. You already have feet,
>>> or foots to start with. No conversion necessary. Its
>>> the inches measurements than need converting to feet, foots.
>>
>> Yup (:-( I calculated a cubic foot as 12 inches x 12
>> inches which,
>> blushingly, is square inches (:-(
>
> That's why I always taught students to show units on every
> number in a calculation, and show the units on any
> conversion factor they used. Cancel the units algebraically
> to be sure your answer comes out with the intended units.
>
>

There's some prior history on that:
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1999-oct-01-mn-17288-story.html

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:

> On 8/22/2022 10:25 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>> Are plastic straws still banned where you live? From what I see,
>> that's
>> one "current thing" that sank without a trace. Plastic straws are given
>> away like in the old days, and the turtles are forgotten.
>> On the other hand, I miss plastic grocery bags, they were very handy
>> for
>> garbage. Now the wife actually buys plastic garbage bags for the
>> kitchen, which cost money and are twice the size needed.
>
> No, plastic straws were never banned here. I ran into only one man,
> then one married couple, who publicly eschewed straws.

I think there were some towns here that actually banned them, but I'm
not sure. Many restaurants stopped giving away plastic straws, some
substituting paper straws, which really don't work very well. I hardly
ever use a straw, so handing me one with a water glass is really a
waste.

Several years later, plastic straws have mysteriously been rehabilitated.

> The couple (a poet and an engineer, to my surprise) were the ones who
> carried anodized stainless steel straws. I immediately thought "Were
> those things made with zero environmental harm? Really?" But I said
> nothing. I want to maintain good relations.

Could be useful in case of emergency tracheotomy (bring a good sharp
pocket knife, not one of those worthless things Mr Holtman has to deal
with). Just saying.

> Regarding plastic bags: Apparently, the alternatives (cloth or paper)
> need to be reused many, many times before their benefits outweigh
> their costs. See
> https://education.nationalgeographic.org/resource/sustainable-shoppingwhich-bag-best
>
> or
>
> https://stanfordmag.org/contents/paper-plastic-or-reusable

Almost all of the towns in my vicinity have outlawed plastic bags for
grocery stores, so the choice is no longer mine. I typically do use
reusable bags, but my wife does not, so we accumulate a lot of paper
bags. Good for starting fires, I guess.

John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> writes:

> On Mon, 22 Aug 2022 18:06:42 -0700 (PDT), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
> <ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Monday, August 22, 2022 at 7:30:16 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>>> On Mon, 22 Aug 2022 15:49:13 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> >On Monday, August 22, 2022 at 2:24:42 AM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>>> >> On Sun, 21 Aug 2022 22:27:56 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
>>> >> wrote:
>>> >> >On Sun, 21 Aug 2022 18:11:45 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>> >> ><ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >> >
>>> >> >>Hmmmm. Don't know about drill presses, but with table saws,
>>> >> >> the blade can catch on the wood for no reason at all.
>>> >> >
>>> >> >There's usually a reason. Nails, knot holes, misaligned work piece,
>>> >> >loose guard rail, etc.
>>> >> >
>>> >> >>And create a projectile to hit you in the head.
>>> >> >
>>> >> >Yep. I use a push stick or block and try to stay out of the line of
>>> >> >fire.
>>> >> ><https://www.google.com/search?q=table+saw+push+stick&tbm=isch>
>>> >> >
>>> >> >This video does a good job of explaining what can go wrong and what to
>>> >> >do to prevent problems with a table saw:
>>> >> >"How table saw kickback injuries occur, and how to STOP them!"
>>> >> ><https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8f8VWwtaudU> (8:22)
>>> >> >
>>> >> Your video is an example of someone that apparently doesn't know what
>>> >> he is doing. Example: you don't have the blade higher above the table
>>> >> then just a tiny bit above the thickness of the wood you are sawing.
>>> >
>>> >I learned it is one full tooth including its gullet above the top
>>> > of the wood. That is what I use. About 1/4 to 3/8 inch.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >> You always use a guide and push stick, if necessary, when sawing with
>>> >> the grain and a (not sure of the name, maybe angle bracket) which
>>> >> slides in a slot in the table top and can be adjusted to various
>>> >> angles when cutting cross grain.
>>> >
>>> >Miter Sled. The slot/groove/channel is called a Miter Slot.
>>> >
>>> >If you are ripping a straight edge on a piece of oak. And you are
>>> > ripping it down to 8 inches wide. You will almost certainly not
>>> > be using a push stick nor a push block. When you are trying to
>>> > rip a 10 foot long by 10 inch wide board down to 10 feet by 8
>>> > inches wide. You will be moving your hands many times during the
>>> > process. You cannot smoothly, continuously push the board into
>>> > the blade if you are juggling a push block or stick and moving
>>> > your hands at the same time. It will be hands only. Your hand
>>> > will be within 2-3-4 inches of the blade. Should be safe. Unless
>>> > there is tension in the board and you release it when you are
>>> > cutting into the board. And then it moves into the blade
>>> > itself. And the blade throws the whole board back at you. But you
>>> > are off to the side so do not get punched in the gut with the
>>> > board. But the board flying backwards may also bump your arm and
>>> > slide your fingers, which were 2-3 inches from the blade, into
>>> > the blade.
>>> >
>>> Well, a 10 ft by, say 1 inch, by 10 inch oak board would be quite
>>> heavy,,, cured oak is in the vicinity of 45 lbs/cu. ft. -- so
>>> probably... (120 x 10)/144= 8 cu ft = 360 lbs.... I would guess that
>>> you will have a helper so one bloke would push the slab into the saw
>>> and the other bloke would pull it through and neither would get closer
>>> then a foot, or even further, of the saw blade.
>>
>>Your numbers or math are way way way off.
>>
>>45 pounds per cubic foot.
>>
>>10 feet long (120 inches)
>>1 inch thick, 0.08333333
>>10 inches wide, 0.833333
>>
>>10 * 0.0833333 * 0.833333 = 0.694444 cubic feet of oak in a 10 foot x
>> 10 inch x 1 inch board
>>0.694444 * 45 lbs/cuft = 31.25 pounds
>>
> Where are you getting those numbers" 1 cu.ft. = 144 sq in.

Give it up, Mr. Slocomb, 114 square inches equals 1 square foot. It
cannot equal any number of cubic feet, that's a category error.

Not to mention your thinking that a reasonably fit person would have
trouble lifting a 4/4 x 10" x 10' oak board makes me wonder a bit about
your practical woodworking experience.

On 8/23/2022 9:09 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 8/22/2022 9:47 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 8/22/2022 9:43 PM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Mon, 22 Aug 2022 18:06:42 -0700 (PDT),
>>> "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
>>> <ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Monday, August 22, 2022 at 7:30:16 PM UTC-5, John B.
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 22 Aug 2022 15:49:13 -0700 (PDT),
>>>>> "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Monday, August 22, 2022 at 2:24:42 AM UTC-5, John B.
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sun, 21 Aug 2022 22:27:56 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
>>>>>>> <je...@cruzio.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Sun, 21 Aug 2022 18:11:45 -0700 (PDT),
>>>>>>>> "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>>>>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hmmmm. Don't know about drill presses, but with
>>>>>>>>> table saws, the blade can catch on the wood for no
>>>>>>>>> reason at all.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There's usually a reason. Nails, knot holes,
>>>>>>>> misaligned work piece,
>>>>>>>> loose guard rail, etc.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And create a projectile to hit you in the head.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yep. I use a push stick or block and try to stay out
>>>>>>>> of the line of
>>>>>>>> fire.
>>>>>>>> <https://www.google.com/search?q=table+saw+push+stick&tbm=isch>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This video does a good job of explaining what can go
>>>>>>>> wrong and what to
>>>>>>>> do to prevent problems with a table saw:
>>>>>>>> "How table saw kickback injuries occur, and how to
>>>>>>>> STOP them!"
>>>>>>>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8f8VWwtaudU> (8:22)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Your video is an example of someone that apparently
>>>>>>> doesn't know what
>>>>>>> he is doing. Example: you don't have the blade higher
>>>>>>> above the table
>>>>>>> then just a tiny bit above the thickness of the wood
>>>>>>> you are sawing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I learned it is one full tooth including its gullet
>>>>>> above the top of the wood. That is what I use. About
>>>>>> 1/4 to 3/8 inch.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You always use a guide and push stick, if necessary,
>>>>>>> when sawing with
>>>>>>> the grain and a (not sure of the name, maybe angle
>>>>>>> bracket) which
>>>>>>> slides in a slot in the table top and can be adjusted
>>>>>>> to various
>>>>>>> angles when cutting cross grain.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Miter Sled. The slot/groove/channel is called a Miter
>>>>>> Slot.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you are ripping a straight edge on a piece of oak.
>>>>>> And you are ripping it down to 8 inches wide. You will
>>>>>> almost certainly not be using a push stick nor a push
>>>>>> block. When you are trying to rip a 10 foot long by 10
>>>>>> inch wide board down to 10 feet by 8 inches wide. You
>>>>>> will be moving your hands many times during the
>>>>>> process. You cannot smoothly, continuously push the
>>>>>> board into the blade if you are juggling a push block
>>>>>> or stick and moving your hands at the same time. It
>>>>>> will be hands only. Your hand will be within 2-3-4
>>>>>> inches of the blade. Should be safe. Unless there is
>>>>>> tension in the board and you release it when you are
>>>>>> cutting into the board. And then it moves into the
>>>>>> blade itself. And the blade throws the whole board back
>>>>>> at you. But you are off to the side so do not get
>>>>>> punched in the gut with the board. But the board flying
>>>>>> backwards may also bump your arm and slide your
>>>>>> fingers, which were 2-3 inches from the blade, into the
>>>>>> blade.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Well, a 10 ft by, say 1 inch, by 10 inch oak board would
>>>>> be quite
>>>>> heavy,,, cured oak is in the vicinity of 45 lbs/cu. ft.
>>>>> -- so
>>>>> probably... (120 x 10)/144= 8 cu ft = 360 lbs.... I
>>>>> would guess that
>>>>> you will have a helper so one bloke would push the slab
>>>>> into the saw
>>>>> and the other bloke would pull it through and neither
>>>>> would get closer
>>>>> then a foot, or even further, of the saw blade.
>>>>
>>>> Your numbers or math are way way way off.
>>>>
>>>> 45 pounds per cubic foot.
>>>>
>>>> 10 feet long (120 inches)
>>>> 1 inch thick, 0.08333333
>>>> 10 inches wide, 0.833333
>>>>
>>>> 10 * 0.0833333 * 0.833333 = 0.694444 cubic feet of oak in
>>>> a 10 foot x 10 inch x 1 inch board
>>>> 0.694444 * 45 lbs/cuft = 31.25 pounds
>>>>
>>> Where are you getting those numbers" 1 cu.ft. = 144 sq in.
>>>
>>>> I own several oak boards that are 4/4 and about 10 feet
>>>> long by 8 inches or so wide.  I can easily pick them off
>>>> the floor and move them around.  It does take some
>>>> muscle.  But any teenage kid or older can easily move them.
>>>>
>>>> You messed up by converting the 10 feet into 120 when you
>>>> multiplied it by 12 inches per foot.  Don't do that when
>>>> you are using cubic foot pounds.  You already have feet,
>>>> or foots to start with.  No conversion necessary.  Its
>>>> the inches measurements than need converting to feet, foots.
>>>
>>> Yup (:-( I calculated a cubic foot as 12 inches x 12
>>> inches which,
>>> blushingly, is square inches (:-(
>>
>> That's why I always taught students to show units on every
>> number in a calculation, and show the units on any
>> conversion factor they used. Cancel the units algebraically
>> to be sure your answer comes out with the intended units.
>>
>>
>
> There's some prior history on that:
> https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1999-oct-01-mn-17288-story.html

Oh yes! That made for good class discussion!

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 8/23/2022 4:48 AM, William Crowell wrote:
>
> I didn't know you were a trained machinist, John. That's really cool. I wish I had become a machinist rather than a lawyer. I went to law school only because I was young, lacked common sense and didn't know what else to do. I am sure I would have enjoyed being a machinist much more than practicing law.

Many times I (like other faculty) taught the "Introduction" course for
our department, required for Mechanical, Electrical and Civil majors. I
always began with information on what the jobs were like, plus a healthy
dose of "do you really want to do this?" I offered information on the
Occupational Outlook Handbooks, U.S. government publications that went
into great detail about the nature of work, working conditions and
prospects for almost every profession one can imagine. (For example, who
knew locksmiths use contortionist skills?)

But about machinists: I think like most jobs, it varies. Some do mind
numbing work. Others, such as the machinist assigned as our engineering
support guy, get really good equipment to use on interesting and varied
projects. I was a bit jealous of that guy.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Tue, 23 Aug 2022 10:36:03 -0400, Radey Shouman
<shouman@comcast.net> wrote:

>Give it up, Mr. Slocomb, 114 square inches equals 1 square foot.

Ummm... 12 * 12 = 144.
Please adjust your slide rule or lubricate your mechanical calculator.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Tue, 23 Aug 2022 10:21:30 -0400, Radey Shouman
<shouman@comcast.net> wrote:

>I think there were some towns here that actually banned them, but I'm
>not sure. Many restaurants stopped giving away plastic straws, some
>substituting paper straws, which really don't work very well. I hardly
>ever use a straw, so handing me one with a water glass is really a
>waste.
>
>Several years later, plastic straws have mysteriously been rehabilitated.

This list is from May 2019 and is likely to be out of date. I
couldn't find anything more recent:
<https://www.orbitz.com/blog/noplastics/>

About a year ago, I received a few stainless steel drinking straws as
a present:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=stainless+steel+straws&tbm=isch>
I liked the idea, so I bought more in different styles and sizes. I
also discovered that the silicone rubber tips are a good idea.
Unfortunately, my motivations to try straws were not ecologically
motivated. I'm accumulating calcium deposits in various places,
including the bones of the neck (cervical spondylosis). At this time,
I'm having some difficulties tilting my head back, as is necessary to
properly empty a glass or cup when the rim of the glass hits my nose.
A straw makes drinking easier.

For every day carry, I have a telescoping (collapsible) version
because the bent tip variety doesn't quite fit in my crowded pocket
protector:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=telescoping+collapsible+stainless+steel+straws&tbm=isch>
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/drivel/index.html#img=pocket_protector.jpg>

I haven't contrived any uses for stainless straws in bicycling, yet.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Monday, August 22, 2022 at 10:47:21 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 8/22/2022 9:43 PM, John B. wrote:
> > On Mon, 22 Aug 2022 18:06:42 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> > <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Monday, August 22, 2022 at 7:30:16 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> >>> On Mon, 22 Aug 2022 15:49:13 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> >>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On Monday, August 22, 2022 at 2:24:42 AM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> >>>>> On Sun, 21 Aug 2022 22:27:56 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>> On Sun, 21 Aug 2022 18:11:45 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> >>>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Hmmmm. Don't know about drill presses, but with table saws, the blade can catch on the wood for no reason at all.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> There's usually a reason. Nails, knot holes, misaligned work piece,
> >>>>>> loose guard rail, etc.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> And create a projectile to hit you in the head.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Yep. I use a push stick or block and try to stay out of the line of
> >>>>>> fire.
> >>>>>> <https://www.google.com/search?q=table+saw+push+stick&tbm=isch>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> This video does a good job of explaining what can go wrong and what to
> >>>>>> do to prevent problems with a table saw:
> >>>>>> "How table saw kickback injuries occur, and how to STOP them!"
> >>>>>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8f8VWwtaudU> (8:22)
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> Your video is an example of someone that apparently doesn't know what
> >>>>> he is doing. Example: you don't have the blade higher above the table
> >>>>> then just a tiny bit above the thickness of the wood you are sawing..
> >>>>
> >>>> I learned it is one full tooth including its gullet above the top of the wood. That is what I use. About 1/4 to 3/8 inch.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> You always use a guide and push stick, if necessary, when sawing with
> >>>>> the grain and a (not sure of the name, maybe angle bracket) which
> >>>>> slides in a slot in the table top and can be adjusted to various
> >>>>> angles when cutting cross grain.
> >>>>
> >>>> Miter Sled. The slot/groove/channel is called a Miter Slot.
> >>>>
> >>>> If you are ripping a straight edge on a piece of oak. And you are ripping it down to 8 inches wide. You will almost certainly not be using a push stick nor a push block. When you are trying to rip a 10 foot long by 10 inch wide board down to 10 feet by 8 inches wide. You will be moving your hands many times during the process. You cannot smoothly, continuously push the board into the blade if you are juggling a push block or stick and moving your hands at the same time. It will be hands only. Your hand will be within 2-3-4 inches of the blade. Should be safe. Unless there is tension in the board and you release it when you are cutting into the board. And then it moves into the blade itself. And the blade throws the whole board back at you. But you are off to the side so do not get punched in the gut with the board. But the board flying backwards may also bump your arm and slide your fingers, which were 2-3 inches from the blade, into the blade.
> >>>>
> >>> Well, a 10 ft by, say 1 inch, by 10 inch oak board would be quite
> >>> heavy,,, cured oak is in the vicinity of 45 lbs/cu. ft. -- so
> >>> probably... (120 x 10)/144= 8 cu ft = 360 lbs.... I would guess that
> >>> you will have a helper so one bloke would push the slab into the saw
> >>> and the other bloke would pull it through and neither would get closer
> >>> then a foot, or even further, of the saw blade.
> >>
> >> Your numbers or math are way way way off.
> >>
> >> 45 pounds per cubic foot.
> >>
> >> 10 feet long (120 inches)
> >> 1 inch thick, 0.08333333
> >> 10 inches wide, 0.833333
> >>
> >> 10 * 0.0833333 * 0.833333 = 0.694444 cubic feet of oak in a 10 foot x 10 inch x 1 inch board
> >> 0.694444 * 45 lbs/cuft = 31.25 pounds
> >>
> > Where are you getting those numbers" 1 cu.ft. = 144 sq in.
> >
> >> I own several oak boards that are 4/4 and about 10 feet long by 8 inches or so wide. I can easily pick them off the floor and move them around. It does take some muscle. But any teenage kid or older can easily move them.
> >>
> >> You messed up by converting the 10 feet into 120 when you multiplied it by 12 inches per foot. Don't do that when you are using cubic foot pounds.. You already have feet, or foots to start with. No conversion necessary. Its the inches measurements than need converting to feet, foots.
> >
> > Yup (:-( I calculated a cubic foot as 12 inches x 12 inches which,
> > blushingly, is square inches (:-(
> That's why I always taught students to show units on every number in a
> calculation, and show the units on any conversion factor they used.
> Cancel the units algebraically to be sure your answer comes out with the
> intended units.
>

On the first day of my ninth-grade wood-shop, the teacher told us points would be taken off our project if he didn't see measurements from both endpoints on the piece. For example - If a 6-inch dowel was to be cut from a piece of stock 36 inches long, We would have to show a 6-inch measurement from one end, then a 30-inch measurement from the other end. If the two marks were not aligned, you've already made a mistake. I'm not sure if my shop teacher was aware of it, but he was echoing a concept by Charles Babbage who wrote if a mathematical problem could be calculated by rearranging the formula in different ways and give the same answer, the result could be considered to be accurate.

This is actually a concept in redundant microprocessor architecture, which the company I'm at now implements for safety control systems in the petrochemical industry called N-version programming. The idea is that you have multiple _different_ microprocessors running code developed by different teams.. Each team will be given the functional requirements and develop the algorithms independent from each other. The operational system then operates with a Boolean AND such that if the different processor systems don't agree then the system is shut down. This prevents systemic failures from a bug in the code or the hardware that a simple redundant system duplicates. The possibility of two independent systems coming up with simultaneous failures that would allow an unsafe process to continue is infinitesimally small. Note these aren't life support systems that need to be kept running, it's the opposite. These system monitor processes that are inherently dangerous, so if one system senses a failure, the process is stopped through a "safe" shut down process.

On 8/19/2022 8:59 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Fri, 19 Aug 2022 07:39:21 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> You don't live in Oakland. https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/violent-night-in-oakland-homicide-sideshows-pot-dispensary-shootout/ During Trump this had almost stopped. All of the illegals knew that if they were caught at anything that they would be deported to their countries of origin. Under Biden murder is acceptable.
>
> "Trump's Promise of Millions of Deportations Is Yet to Be Fulfilled"
> <https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/trump-deportations-unfinished-mission>
> Oct 29, 2020.
>
> Sources of funding for migrationpolicy.org:
> <https://www.migrationpolicy.org/about/funders>

Since Obama deported about five times as many people, per year, than
Trump, I guess that Tom must have been a big Obama fan.

Under Biden, the deportation percentage of convicted criminals has gone
up versus under Trump, plus the number of arrests of those with felony
convictions has doubled under Biden. As a result, Tom must also like Biden.

What has fallen, under Biden, is the deportation of non-criminals, but
not necessarily. What changed is that the U.S. is rapidly expelling
unlawful border crossers under Title 42 of the public health code, and
those explulsions don't count as deportations. Detentions of border
crossers reached an all-time high under Biden.

On 8/19/2022 8:59 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Fri, 19 Aug 2022 07:39:21 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> You don't live in Oakland. https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/violent-night-in-oakland-homicide-sideshows-pot-dispensary-shootout/ During Trump this had almost stopped. All of the illegals knew that if they were caught at anything that they would be deported to their countries of origin. Under Biden murder is acceptable.
>
> "Trump's Promise of Millions of Deportations Is Yet to Be Fulfilled"
> <https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/trump-deportations-unfinished-mission>
> Oct 29, 2020.

"Compared to native-born citizens, undocumented immigrants are roughly
half as likely to be arrested for homicide, felonious assault, and
sexual assault. The gaps for robbery, burglary, theft, and arson are
considerably larger, whereby native-born citizens are between 3 and 5
times more likely to be arrested for these criminal offenses. For most
crimes, the criminality of legal immigrants tends to be less than that
of native-born citizens. The exceptions to this pattern are homicide,
where the rates are roughly equal, and sexual assault, where arrest
rates for legal immigrants are considerably higher."
<https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.2014704117>

Based on this data, I think Tom will soon be advocating for more
undocumented immigrants.

On Tue, 23 Aug 2022 13:01:39 -0700, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com>
wrote:

>On 8/19/2022 8:59 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Fri, 19 Aug 2022 07:39:21 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>> <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> You don't live in Oakland. https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/violent-night-in-oakland-homicide-sideshows-pot-dispensary-shootout/ During Trump this had almost stopped. All of the illegals knew that if they were caught at anything that they would be deported to their countries of origin. Under Biden murder is acceptable.
>>
>> "Trump's Promise of Millions of Deportations Is Yet to Be Fulfilled"
>> <https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/trump-deportations-unfinished-mission>
>> Oct 29, 2020.
>
>"Compared to native-born citizens, undocumented immigrants are roughly
>half as likely to be arrested for homicide, felonious assault, and
>sexual assault. The gaps for robbery, burglary, theft, and arson are
>considerably larger, whereby native-born citizens are between 3 and 5
>times more likely to be arrested for these criminal offenses. For most
>crimes, the criminality of legal immigrants tends to be less than that
>of native-born citizens. The exceptions to this pattern are homicide,
>where the rates are roughly equal, and sexual assault, where arrest
>rates for legal immigrants are considerably higher."
><https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.2014704117>
>
>Based on this data, I think Tom will soon be advocating for more
>undocumented immigrants.

Not so fast. From the above source:
"The limited information we do have about undocumented criminality is
not only conspicuously scant but also highly inconsistent."

Worse, the source of the information on undocument aliens (footnote
12) came from the Cato Institute which only covered the state of
Texas.
<https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3501078>
"This Immigration Research and Policy Brief was updated in August 2018
after the Texas Department of Public Safety (DPS) confirmed that their
first release of convictions data was incorrect because of a coding
error. As a result, Nowrasteh updated this brief’s findings to reflect
the accurate data released by DPS after they admitted their original
error."

Swell. I can't tell if PNAS used the original erronious report or the
revised report. It's also a bad idea to extrapolate data from Texas
to reflect the arrest rates in the remaining states and territories.

Observation: The deeper we dig, the dirtier it becomes.

It's also possible that undocumented immigrants are better at avoiding
arrest and are more difficult to find. An undocumented alien is not
likely to have a permanent address. The authorities can't just obtain
an arrest warrant, drive to their place of residense, and arrest them.
They have to find where they're living. Documented aliens and
citizens will probably have an address where they can be arrested.

Dumb question: Is the arrest rate by the number of people actually
arrested, or does it also include those where an arrest warrant is
issued but not served or where nobody is arrested?

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 8/23/2022 3:52 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Tue, 23 Aug 2022 13:01:39 -0700, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 8/19/2022 8:59 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>> On Fri, 19 Aug 2022 07:39:21 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>>> <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> You don't live in Oakland. https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/violent-night-in-oakland-homicide-sideshows-pot-dispensary-shootout/ During Trump this had almost stopped. All of the illegals knew that if they were caught at anything that they would be deported to their countries of origin. Under Biden murder is acceptable.
>>>
>>> "Trump's Promise of Millions of Deportations Is Yet to Be Fulfilled"
>>> <https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/trump-deportations-unfinished-mission>
>>> Oct 29, 2020.
>>
>> "Compared to native-born citizens, undocumented immigrants are roughly
>> half as likely to be arrested for homicide, felonious assault, and
>> sexual assault. The gaps for robbery, burglary, theft, and arson are
>> considerably larger, whereby native-born citizens are between 3 and 5
>> times more likely to be arrested for these criminal offenses. For most
>> crimes, the criminality of legal immigrants tends to be less than that
>> of native-born citizens. The exceptions to this pattern are homicide,
>> where the rates are roughly equal, and sexual assault, where arrest
>> rates for legal immigrants are considerably higher."
>> <https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.2014704117>
>>
>> Based on this data, I think Tom will soon be advocating for more
>> undocumented immigrants.
>
> Not so fast. From the above source:
> "The limited information we do have about undocumented criminality is
> not only conspicuously scant but also highly inconsistent."
>
> Worse, the source of the information on undocument aliens (footnote
> 12) came from the Cato Institute which only covered the state of
> Texas.
> <https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3501078>
> "This Immigration Research and Policy Brief was updated in August 2018
> after the Texas Department of Public Safety (DPS) confirmed that their
> first release of convictions data was incorrect because of a coding
> error. As a result, Nowrasteh updated this brief’s findings to reflect
> the accurate data released by DPS after they admitted their original
> error."
>
> Swell. I can't tell if PNAS used the original erronious report or the
> revised report. It's also a bad idea to extrapolate data from Texas
> to reflect the arrest rates in the remaining states and territories.
>
> Observation: The deeper we dig, the dirtier it becomes.
>
> It's also possible that undocumented immigrants are better at avoiding
> arrest and are more difficult to find. An undocumented alien is not
> likely to have a permanent address. The authorities can't just obtain
> an arrest warrant, drive to their place of residense, and arrest them.
> They have to find where they're living. Documented aliens and
> citizens will probably have an address where they can be arrested.
>
> Dumb question: Is the arrest rate by the number of people actually
> arrested, or does it also include those where an arrest warrant is
> issued but not served or where nobody is arrested?
>
>

Good question. Ask Kate Steinle.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Monday, August 22, 2022 at 3:50:11 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 8/22/2022 5:13 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Sunday, August 21, 2022 at 8:22:49 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 8/21/2022 8:05 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>> On Sunday, August 21, 2022 at 7:51:54 PM UTC-5, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>>> On Sunday, August 21, 2022 at 7:32:06 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> >>>>> On Sun, 21 Aug 2022 11:38:23 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> >>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On 8/21/2022 11:18 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>>>> On 8/20/2022 10:10 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On 8/20/2022 12:49 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On 8/20/2022 11:05 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Self defense training might, and some variants even have
> >>>>>>>>>> benefits that
> >>>>>>>>>> don't have much to do with self defense, like for example
> >>>>>>>>>> Judo. Personal
> >>>>>>>>>> defense weapons are not. If your society needs this or
> >>>>>>>>>> makes it look
> >>>>>>>>>> like a necessity, it is broken.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Video is data not security.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Right. A police force that is not criminal itself and is
> >>>>>>>>>> able to resolve
> >>>>>>>>>> conflicts mostly without the use of weapons _is_ security.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> You may call our society broken but here we are, by
> >>>>>>>>> whatever name.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> As with the Milwaukee mother cited here recently, a
> >>>>>>>>> citizen has to choose defense or death. Or as we say here,
> >>>>>>>>> 'When seconds matter, 911 is just twenty minutes away.'
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> If very many people have to choose between defense or death,
> >>>>>>>> it's an indication of a broken society.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> One might say that makes all societies broken to a degree.
> >>>>>>>> But one can find data on the relative degree of such
> >>>>>>>> "brokenness" among nations. It tends to make the U.S. look bad.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Some societies lock up habitual criminals as a preventative measure and
> >>>>>>> a service to citizens. Some don't:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> https://cwbchicago.com/2022/08/man-who-allegedly-committed-murder-while-on-felony-bail-also-committed-two-carjackings-federal-prosecutors-allege.html
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> "Murder while out on bail" is far from common. I'm pretty sure that if
> >>>>>> you subtracted all such cases, U.S. data would still look dismal
> >>>>>> compared to other modern developed countries.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Don't we lead the world in incarceration rates?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I've heard that doing the same thing over and over while expecting a
> >>>>>> different result is a symptom of insanity.
> >>>>> https://www.brookings.edu/opinions/the-numbers-dont-lie-its-the-hard-core-doing-hard-time/
> >>>>> "in 1991 alone some 45 percent of state prisoners were criminals who,
> >>>>> at the very moment they committed their latest crimes, were on
> >>>>> probation or parole. While under supervision in the community, these
> >>>>> prisoners had committed at least 218,000 violent crimes including
> >>>>> 13,200 murders and 11,600 rapes (more than half of the rapes against
> >>>>> children)."
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> John B.
> >>>> Your reference is from 1991. Old history now. After 1991 (and a little earlier too) the USA instituted more mandatory sentence laws. More minor drug possession laws to "Stop the Crime".
> >>>>
> >>>> This shows total US prison population from 1925 to 2017. You'll notice it was pretty level up until about 1980. Increase due to population increases of course. Same incarceration rate for about 60 years. Then Reagan and the Republicans took over government. And it started to skyrocket in number of prisoners. Peaking in about 2007-2008 at the end of Bush2 Republican's term.
> >>>> https://www.sentencingproject.org/publications/u-s-prison-population-trends-massive-buildup-and-modest-decline/
> >>>
> >>> Sorry I forgot to add this to the prior post. The US also began its policy of "3 strikes and you are out". Anyone who commits three crimes is locked up for life or minimum 25-50 years. Doesn't matter if the crimes are minor or not. Get caught using crack cocaine three times, you are sent to prison for a mandatory life sentence without parole ever. Note this is not just for dealers and sellers, but the users. The ones who are harming themselves by using crack cocaine. Same laws apply to the speed amphetamine users too. And the synthetic opioids users too.
> >>>
> >> Although those States who adopted the '3 strikes' protocol
> >> wrote statutes which vary greatly in particulars, all AFAIK
> >> apply to felonies, not simple possession.
> >> --
> >> Andrew Muzi
> >> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> >> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> >
> > https://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/crime-penalties/federal/Possession-Controlled-Substance.htm#:~:text=Jail%20or%20prison%20time%20is,years%20or%20more%20in%20prison.
> > "Drug possession charges are subject to an incredibly broad range of penalties, depending on the state in which the crime occurs or if federal charges are involved. The severity of the penalty depends upon a number of factors, such as the specific type of drug involved, the circumstances surrounding the possession, and the criminal history of the person possessing the drugs. Penalties for possession of Schedule I drugs are the most severe and Schedule V the least severe."
> > "Incarceration. Jail or prison time is also possible when a person is convicted of possession of a controlled substance. Jail sentences range widely depending on the crime charged, the type of drugs involved, and the state's laws, but can range from a few days or weeks to 10 years or more in prison."
> >
> > Misdemeanor results in 10 years in prison. Not much misdemeanor about that.
> >
> > https://www.justia.com/criminal/offenses/drug-crimes/drug-possession/#:~:text=Drug%20possession%20is%20the%20crime,to%20the%20Department%20of%20Justice.
> > "Punishment for Drug Possession
> > Drug possession is criminalized under both state and federal laws, and it is typically broken down into two categories: simple possession and possession with intent to distribute. While simple possession is often a misdemeanor, possession with intent to distribute typically carries much harsher sentences."
> >
> > Please note it says "is OFTEN a misdemeanor". OFTEN. Not 100%, not automatic. Felony is more than possible. And as this website and the prior one notes, there are MANY variables in play.
> >
> > "Sentencing for drug possession crimes has been under scrutiny in recent years for the high number of offenders sent to prison and rising prison populations. For this reason, some states have created alternative drug courts to deal with defendants charged with felony drug crimes."
> >
> > Note, it says "felony drug crimes". Felony. Not Misdemeanor. Now they may only be talking about the possession with intent to distribute people. Not the simple users category. Maybe.
> >
> > I suspect the felony and misdemeanor classification is highly dependent on all of the variables involved in the arrest and possession. A white attractive college girl picked up for using various drugs, likely misdemeanor and thousand dollar fine and drug rehabilitation program. Poor black boy arrested for the same drugs in the ghetto, felony and many years in state penitentiary.
> >
> We don't disagree but the immortal trope that 'a gazillion
> guys doing hard time for a joint' is BS. Simple possession
> hasn't been a felony in years and sentences are light,
> incarceration rare and short.
>
> That said, possession with intent is a different matter. We
> could argue about those statutes but they have resisted
> change in most States despite much discussion, weeping and
> moaning lo these many years.
>
> Back to '3 strikes', where this branched, life is not
> sentenced for simple possession in this country. Period.

On Monday, August 22, 2022 at 3:51:48 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 8/22/2022 5:20 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Sunday, August 21, 2022 at 10:08:11 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> >> On Sun, 21 Aug 2022 18:11:45 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> >> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Sunday, August 21, 2022 at 7:55:49 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> >>>> On Sun, 21 Aug 2022 17:00:25 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> On 8/21/2022 4:43 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> >>>>>> On Sun, 21 Aug 2022 14:45:05 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> >>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On 8/20/2022 12:56 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On Sat, 20 Aug 2022 18:48:26 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> (:-) I served my apprenticeship as a Machinist and worked at the
> >>>>>>>>> trade for some years and had never heard of a "safety switch" for a
> >>>>>>>>> drill press and had to look it up on Youtube. Amazing! (:-)
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Drill Press NVR (no voltage release) Switch:
> >>>>>>>> <https://www.google.com/search?q=drill+press+nvr+switch>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> "Save Fingers, Save Lives With A No-Voltage Release For The Shop"
> >>>>>>>> <https://hackaday.com/2018/09/06/save-fingers-save-lives-with-a-no-voltage-release-for-the-shop/>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Argh. I wasn't paying attention when I selected the above link as an
> >>>>>> NVR example. The author installed the NVR on a power strip. That's
> >>>>>> not going to work because if two or more loads are drawing current at
> >>>>>> the same time, unplugging one load is not going to trip the NVR. Only
> >>>>>> if *ALL* the loads are disconnected will the NVR trip. It has to be
> >>>>>> one NVR per load.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> If someone trips over the power cord and unplugs the source of power,
> >>>>>>>> the drill press will not spin if someone else plugs the cord back into
> >>>>>>>> the wall receptacle. I've never heard of anyone experiencing a
> >>>>>>>> similar problem with a drill press.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> A foot switch would have been a better solution. Also, requiring that
> >>>>>>>> the on/off switch on a drill press be easily reachable, such as on the
> >>>>>>>> FRONT of the drill press, where turning it off does now involve
> >>>>>>>> passing one's arm near the rotating spindle. On/off switches on the
> >>>>>>>> side of the head are dangerous.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Agreed. On my home drill press, I installed an extension for the head
> >>>>>>> mounted toggle switch. It's still far from perfect, but at least it's
> >>>>>>> much easier to locate and operate.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I have a Craftsman 15 1/2 inch drill press. The motor and light
> >>>>>> switches are on the front of the head. I have no plans to install an
> >>>>>> NVR switch. It looks something like this:
> >>>>>> <https://aarauctions.com/live/images/auction-2320/medium-128988.0_1.jpg>
> >>>>>> My previous drill press had the switches on the left side and an SSR
> >>>>>> (solid state relay) inside the head. Something like this:
> >>>>>> <http://bedroom-workshop.com/drill-chio/0drill-chio.html>
> >>>>>> <http://bedroom-workshop.com/drill-chio/done-8.jpg>
> >>>>>> It was easier for me to sell it than to fix it.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Ours have the switches on the left side of the head which,
> >>>>> since you mention it, may be a hard reach when one's right
> >>>>> arm is mangled in the work. Then again that situation has
> >>>>> never presented itself. (we do habitually lock the vise to
> >>>>> the plate)
> >>>> Correct. If you use a drill press correctly there is no requirement
> >>>> for emergency switches and those who feel an emergency switch a
> >>>> necessity should learn how to use the machine properly.
> >>>> --
> >>>> Cheers,
> >>>>
> >>>> John B.
> >>>
> >>> Hmmmm. Don't know about drill presses, but with table saws, the blade can catch on the wood for no reason at all. And create a projectile to hit you in the head. Or pull your fingers into the blade. Now of course you should keep your hands away from the blade. But with a table saw, you have to guide the wood into the blade for it to cut. And if the wood is only 6 inches wide, your hands are going to be less than 6 inches from the wood. John, your logic suggests no safety device is ever needed ever on any machine on earth if a machine is operated correctly and nothing out of the ordinary ever happens. Yet we have seatbelts on cars. And airbags on cars. And headrests on cars. Those would never ever be used if a car is always driven properly by everyone driving every car. In my short time on earth, I have discovered that does not happen.
> >> I think you have a very vivid imagination. Saws running at the proper
> >> speed don't, assuming a competent operator, catch and throw the work
> >> "clean across the room" quite simply because you feed the work into
> >> the saw slowly and only increase pressure on the work piece as the
> >> blade is taking a full cut. and as for feeding tiny little pieces into
> >> the blade by hand... if you do that then you are an idiot and deserve
> >> everything that is going to happen to you.
> >>
> >> I would even go so far as to state that "no power tool can be made
> >> totally safe when operated by an fool".
> >> --
> >> Cheers,
> >>
> >> John B.
> >
> > John, you don't have much work with a table saw cutting wood then. Tension built into wood is common. The tension is there based on how the tree grew and was cut. A tree with a big bend in the trunk has built in tension within the wood. A crooked tree. It will still be processed at the mill into straight pieces of wood. But when you cut it at certain places, the built in tension will release. And one edge of the wood will be pushed against the side of the blade and the blade will fling it back at you. Safety devices such as kickback pawls and the inline splitter, riving knife on a table saw help to reduce, eliminate, this possibility.
> >
> OMG I had no idea. Thank you.
>
> I stay away from wood - it doesn't like me and you can't
> weld it.

It surprises not that the accountant now knows about wood working. Especially the part about grown-in stresses that will relieve themselves when cut. You'd almost think that he has cut a large enough timber to discover these stresses. Where are these anti-kickback protections in a cut-off saw? What actually happens is that wood has hard and soft spots due to wood growth. If you're pushing through soft wood you're cutting pretty fast and then when you hit the hard spots or knotholes the saw will sometimes catch and kick-back. This is not caused by grown-in stresses. Likewise cutting metal that has soft and hard areas can be troublesome.

On Tuesday, August 23, 2022 at 1:48:43 AM UTC-7, William Crowell wrote:
> On Saturday, August 20, 2022 at 4:48:36 AM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
> > On Sat, 20 Aug 2022 02:43:41 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
> > <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >On Friday, August 19, 2022 at 4:22:20 PM UTC+2, AMuzi wrote:
> > >> On 8/19/2022 9:12 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > >> > Two days ago my wife and I rode our tandem to my doctor's
> > >> > office for a routine visit. When I mentioned that to a nurse
> > >> > as we left, she said "Oh! Be safe!"
> > >> >
> > >> > And last night on TV I happened to see a short bit of a
> > >> > lecture by travel writer Rick Steves. He said nowadays,
> > >> > people leaving on a vacation seldom hear "Bon Voyage" or its
> > >> > equivalent. Instead it's "Oh, have a safe trip!" - unless
> > >> > it's "Really? You're going to Europe despite everything
> > >> > that's going on?"
> > >> >
> > >> > People drive three ton vehicles with exploding inflatable
> > >> > interiors to get their groceries because they are "safer."
> > >> > Doorbells have been replaced by security cameras backed up
> > >> > by semi-automatic weapons. Playgrounds don't have grass,
> > >> > they have rubber surfaces and security cameras. Some kids
> > >> > are not allowed out of their yards, and very few are allowed
> > >> > to roam and explore the neighborhood or the woods.
> > >> >
> > >> > And of course, people wear body armor for ordinary bike
> > >> > rides, and are told riding on an ordinary street is terribly
> > >> > dangerous.
> > >> >
> > >> > So many fearful people!
> > >> >
> > >> +1
> > >>
> > >> And almost all of it is theater.
> > >> Self defense training and/or a personal defense weapon is
> > >> security. Video is data not security.
> > >
> > >At work we use those hobby knives a lot, like this one:
> > >
> > >https://www.bol.com/nl/nl/p/pard-afbreekmes-b-25-mm-pa69826/9200000128399327/?Referrer=ADVNLPPcef1a600cdbf9297004e301f08001126362&utm_source=1126362&utm_medium=Affiliates&utm_campaign=CPS&utm_content=txl
> > >
> > >One day I found a whole box of them on a table near my desk with a sign 'you may take these home'. I asked why. The answer was that you may not use them anymore at work and were replaced by knives with a automatic retractable blade. You have to hold down a button to be able to cut. WTF. They are awful to work with and 10 times more expensive. I asked if I was still allowed to eat with a metal knife and fork. I put 5 of them in my drawer of my desk en took two home. . We have a special department for this nonsense. They were also responsible for the 'safety' switch' on the drill press which makes drilling a hole more dangerous. It is crazy. It is all about liability.
> > >
> > >Lou
> > (:-) I served my apprenticeship as a Machinist and worked at the
> > trade for some years and had never heard of a "safety switch" for a
> > drill press and had to look it up on Youtube. Amazing! (:-)
> >
> > --
> > Cheers,
> >
> > John B.
> I didn't know you were a trained machinist, John. That's really cool. I wish I had become a machinist rather than a lawyer. I went to law school only because I was young, lacked common sense and didn't know what else to do. I am sure I would have enjoyed being a machinist much more than practicing law.

Believe me, a retired lawyer has a better life than a retired machinist.

On Tuesday, August 23, 2022 at 7:21:34 AM UTC-7, Radey Shouman wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> writes:
>
> > On 8/22/2022 10:25 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
> >> Are plastic straws still banned where you live? From what I see,
> >> that's
> >> one "current thing" that sank without a trace. Plastic straws are given
> >> away like in the old days, and the turtles are forgotten.
> >> On the other hand, I miss plastic grocery bags, they were very handy
> >> for
> >> garbage. Now the wife actually buys plastic garbage bags for the
> >> kitchen, which cost money and are twice the size needed.
> >
> > No, plastic straws were never banned here. I ran into only one man,
> > then one married couple, who publicly eschewed straws.
>
> I think there were some towns here that actually banned them, but I'm
> not sure. Many restaurants stopped giving away plastic straws, some
> substituting paper straws, which really don't work very well. I hardly
> ever use a straw, so handing me one with a water glass is really a
> waste.
>
> Several years later, plastic straws have mysteriously been rehabilitated.
>
> > The couple (a poet and an engineer, to my surprise) were the ones who
> > carried anodized stainless steel straws. I immediately thought "Were
> > those things made with zero environmental harm? Really?" But I said
> > nothing. I want to maintain good relations.
>
> Could be useful in case of emergency tracheotomy (bring a good sharp
> pocket knife, not one of those worthless things Mr Holtman has to deal
> with). Just saying.
>
> > Regarding plastic bags: Apparently, the alternatives (cloth or paper)
> > need to be reused many, many times before their benefits outweigh
> > their costs. See
> > https://education.nationalgeographic.org/resource/sustainable-shoppingwhich-bag-best
> >
> > or
> >
> > https://stanfordmag.org/contents/paper-plastic-or-reusable
>
> Almost all of the towns in my vicinity have outlawed plastic bags for
> grocery stores, so the choice is no longer mine. I typically do use
> reusable bags, but my wife does not, so we accumulate a lot of paper
> bags. Good for starting fires, I guess.

Plastic straws were the bane of the environmentalists who said that we had satellite photos of a great floating pile of plastic in the mid-Pacific Ocean
.. They proved if with photos of floating piles of plastic garbage not taken from a satellite but from a surface boat. Well, that pile of floating plastic garbage had just been dumped by a Vietnamese garbage scow that drove just outside of the continental limits and then dropped it off. And in the place of the so-called floating island of plastic this pile of plastic garbage was one cubic millimeter of plastic per cubic meter of surface ocean and NONE below the surface 30 meters.

In short - plastic is eaten by a type of bacteria and as usual everything that the "environmentalists;" said was third hand from a pack of liars. Greta Thunberg couldn't be prouder.

On Tuesday, August 23, 2022 at 7:36:07 AM UTC-7, Radey Shouman wrote:
> John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > On Mon, 22 Aug 2022 18:06:42 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> > <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >>On Monday, August 22, 2022 at 7:30:16 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> >>> On Mon, 22 Aug 2022 15:49:13 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> >>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> >On Monday, August 22, 2022 at 2:24:42 AM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> >>> >> On Sun, 21 Aug 2022 22:27:56 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
> >>> >> wrote:
> >>> >> >On Sun, 21 Aug 2022 18:11:45 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> >>> >> ><ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> >>Hmmmm. Don't know about drill presses, but with table saws,
> >>> >> >> the blade can catch on the wood for no reason at all.
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> >There's usually a reason. Nails, knot holes, misaligned work piece,
> >>> >> >loose guard rail, etc.
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> >>And create a projectile to hit you in the head.
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> >Yep. I use a push stick or block and try to stay out of the line of
> >>> >> >fire.
> >>> >> ><https://www.google.com/search?q=table+saw+push+stick&tbm=isch>
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> >This video does a good job of explaining what can go wrong and what to
> >>> >> >do to prevent problems with a table saw:
> >>> >> >"How table saw kickback injuries occur, and how to STOP them!"
> >>> >> ><https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8f8VWwtaudU> (8:22)
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> Your video is an example of someone that apparently doesn't know what
> >>> >> he is doing. Example: you don't have the blade higher above the table
> >>> >> then just a tiny bit above the thickness of the wood you are sawing.
> >>> >
> >>> >I learned it is one full tooth including its gullet above the top
> >>> > of the wood. That is what I use. About 1/4 to 3/8 inch.
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >> You always use a guide and push stick, if necessary, when sawing with
> >>> >> the grain and a (not sure of the name, maybe angle bracket) which
> >>> >> slides in a slot in the table top and can be adjusted to various
> >>> >> angles when cutting cross grain.
> >>> >
> >>> >Miter Sled. The slot/groove/channel is called a Miter Slot.
> >>> >
> >>> >If you are ripping a straight edge on a piece of oak. And you are
> >>> > ripping it down to 8 inches wide. You will almost certainly not
> >>> > be using a push stick nor a push block. When you are trying to
> >>> > rip a 10 foot long by 10 inch wide board down to 10 feet by 8
> >>> > inches wide. You will be moving your hands many times during the
> >>> > process. You cannot smoothly, continuously push the board into
> >>> > the blade if you are juggling a push block or stick and moving
> >>> > your hands at the same time. It will be hands only. Your hand
> >>> > will be within 2-3-4 inches of the blade. Should be safe. Unless
> >>> > there is tension in the board and you release it when you are
> >>> > cutting into the board. And then it moves into the blade
> >>> > itself. And the blade throws the whole board back at you. But you
> >>> > are off to the side so do not get punched in the gut with the
> >>> > board. But the board flying backwards may also bump your arm and
> >>> > slide your fingers, which were 2-3 inches from the blade, into
> >>> > the blade.
> >>> >
> >>> Well, a 10 ft by, say 1 inch, by 10 inch oak board would be quite
> >>> heavy,,, cured oak is in the vicinity of 45 lbs/cu. ft. -- so
> >>> probably... (120 x 10)/144= 8 cu ft = 360 lbs.... I would guess that
> >>> you will have a helper so one bloke would push the slab into the saw
> >>> and the other bloke would pull it through and neither would get closer
> >>> then a foot, or even further, of the saw blade.
> >>
> >>Your numbers or math are way way way off.
> >>
> >>45 pounds per cubic foot.
> >>
> >>10 feet long (120 inches)
> >>1 inch thick, 0.08333333
> >>10 inches wide, 0.833333
> >>
> >>10 * 0.0833333 * 0.833333 = 0.694444 cubic feet of oak in a 10 foot x
> >> 10 inch x 1 inch board
> >>0.694444 * 45 lbs/cuft = 31.25 pounds
> >>
> > Where are you getting those numbers" 1 cu.ft. = 144 sq in.
> Give it up, Mr. Slocomb, 114 square inches equals 1 square foot. It
> cannot equal any number of cubic feet, that's a category error.
>
> Not to mention your thinking that a reasonably fit person would have
> trouble lifting a 4/4 x 10" x 10' oak board makes me wonder a bit about
> your practical woodworking experience.

Keep watching, you'll see a whole lot more from people like Frank who never fell down on a bicycle or John, whose entire knowledge of the world around him comes from Google which is entirely volunteer information from people like Scharf or Russell. Why has it never bothered anyone that John supposedly lives in Thailand and has never mentioned the Monsoons where it is likely to rain continuously for two or three months?

On Tue, 23 Aug 2022 11:25:11 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 8/23/2022 4:48 AM, William Crowell wrote:
>>
>> I didn't know you were a trained machinist, John. That's really cool. I wish I had become a machinist rather than a lawyer. I went to law school only because I was young, lacked common sense and didn't know what else to do. I am sure I would have enjoyed being a machinist much more than practicing law.
>
>Many times I (like other faculty) taught the "Introduction" course for
>our department, required for Mechanical, Electrical and Civil majors. I
>always began with information on what the jobs were like, plus a healthy
>dose of "do you really want to do this?" I offered information on the
>Occupational Outlook Handbooks, U.S. government publications that went
>into great detail about the nature of work, working conditions and
>prospects for almost every profession one can imagine. (For example, who
>knew locksmiths use contortionist skills?)
>
>But about machinists: I think like most jobs, it varies. Some do mind
>numbing work. Others, such as the machinist assigned as our engineering
>support guy, get really good equipment to use on interesting and varied
>projects. I was a bit jealous of that guy.

"Machinist" varies a lot. In some jobs it can mean repeatedly doing
the same thing day after day after day. In other jobs it can be doing
something different every day.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Tue, 23 Aug 2022 15:16:56 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>Plastic straws were the bane of the environmentalists who said that we had satellite photos of a great floating pile of plastic in the mid-Pacific Ocean
>. They proved if with photos of floating piles of plastic garbage not taken from a satellite but from a surface boat.

>Well, that pile of floating plastic garbage had just been dumped by a Vietnamese garbage scow that drove just outside of the continental limits and then dropped it off.

Got any links to articles that corroborate your amazing facts? Yes,
Vietnam is a major contributor to the plastic problem. However, it's
not from garbage in international waters. It's from dumping it on
their own beaches, or close to shore, which then floats out to sea or
on shore, depending on which way the currents are going:
<https://www.reuters.com/article/us-environment-day-vietnam/drastic-plastic-vietnam-beach-awash-with-tide-of-blue-waste-idUSKCN1J018X>

>And in the place of the so-called floating island of plastic this pile of plastic garbage was one cubic millimeter of plastic per cubic meter of surface ocean and NONE below the surface 30 meters.

Mostly wrong or misunderstood

There are no floating islands of plastic. Yes, the photos were not
from satellites:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garbage_patch>

"Despite the common public perception of the patch existing as giant
islands of floating garbage, its low density (4 particles per cubic
metre (3.1/cu yd)) prevents detection by satellite imagery..."

Yes, the plastic is very fine and widely dispersed. But there's a
very large amount of it:
"Estimated to be double the size of Texas, the area contains more than
3 million short tons (2.7 million metric tons) of plastic. The gyre
contains approximately six pounds of plastic for every pound of
plankton."

It also extends well below the surface of the water:
"In the Pacific... These garbage patches contain 90 million tonnes
(100 million short tons) of debris. The waste is not compact, and
although most of it is near the surface of the pacific, it can be
found up to more than 30 metres (100 ft) deep in the water."

>In short - plastic is eaten by a type of bacteria and as usual everything that the "environmentalists;" said was third hand from a pack of liars. Greta Thunberg couldn't be prouder.

Yep, except it's a big maybe. In one test, there was some reduction
in plastic mass (polyethylene 7%, polystyrene 11%) after 5 months.
However, there's no information on how well the bacteria might work on
a global scale:
"These tiny microbes are munching away at plastic waste in the ocean"
<https://www.science.org/content/article/these-tiny-microbes-are-munching-away-plastic-waste-ocean>

There are also enzymes that break down plastic. This article explains
why bacteria and enzymes haven't yet made any impact on the growing
mass of plastic in the oceans:
"Why haven’t plastic-eating bacteria fixed the ocean plastic pollution
problem?"
<https://bigthink.com/life/plastic-eating-bacteria-ocean-pollution/>

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Tue, 23 Aug 2022 10:21:30 -0400, Radey Shouman
<shouman@comcast.net> wrote:

>Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:
>
>> On 8/22/2022 10:25 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>> Are plastic straws still banned where you live? From what I see,
>>> that's
>>> one "current thing" that sank without a trace. Plastic straws are given
>>> away like in the old days, and the turtles are forgotten.
>>> On the other hand, I miss plastic grocery bags, they were very handy
>>> for
>>> garbage. Now the wife actually buys plastic garbage bags for the
>>> kitchen, which cost money and are twice the size needed.
>>
>> No, plastic straws were never banned here. I ran into only one man,
>> then one married couple, who publicly eschewed straws.
>
>I think there were some towns here that actually banned them, but I'm
>not sure. Many restaurants stopped giving away plastic straws, some
>substituting paper straws, which really don't work very well. I hardly
>ever use a straw, so handing me one with a water glass is really a
>waste.
>
>Several years later, plastic straws have mysteriously been rehabilitated.
>
>> The couple (a poet and an engineer, to my surprise) were the ones who
>> carried anodized stainless steel straws. I immediately thought "Were
>> those things made with zero environmental harm? Really?" But I said
>> nothing. I want to maintain good relations.
>
>Could be useful in case of emergency tracheotomy (bring a good sharp
>pocket knife, not one of those worthless things Mr Holtman has to deal
>with). Just saying.
>
>> Regarding plastic bags: Apparently, the alternatives (cloth or paper)
>> need to be reused many, many times before their benefits outweigh
>> their costs. See
>> https://education.nationalgeographic.org/resource/sustainable-shoppingwhich-bag-best
>>
>> or
>>
>> https://stanfordmag.org/contents/paper-plastic-or-reusable
>
>Almost all of the towns in my vicinity have outlawed plastic bags for
>grocery stores, so the choice is no longer mine. I typically do use
>reusable bags, but my wife does not, so we accumulate a lot of paper
>bags. Good for starting fires, I guess.

Here the stores are a bit more clever.
They announced that"from no on you have to pay to get a bag" (about 10
cents a bag) and every housewife in the village rared back her
shoulders. looked down here nose, and said things like. WELL! You Want
ME to pay for a bag?" And then next time went shopping with a large
shopping bag.

The difference is that in your case the shop keeper (the rotten SOB)
refused to give you a bag and in my case the housewife elected not to
buy a bag (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Tue, 23 Aug 2022 01:48:41 -0700 (PDT), William Crowell
<retroguybilly@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, August 20, 2022 at 4:48:36 AM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
>> On Sat, 20 Aug 2022 02:43:41 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
>> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Friday, August 19, 2022 at 4:22:20 PM UTC+2, AMuzi wrote:
>> >> On 8/19/2022 9:12 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> >> > Two days ago my wife and I rode our tandem to my doctor's
>> >> > office for a routine visit. When I mentioned that to a nurse
>> >> > as we left, she said "Oh! Be safe!"
>> >> >
>> >> > And last night on TV I happened to see a short bit of a
>> >> > lecture by travel writer Rick Steves. He said nowadays,
>> >> > people leaving on a vacation seldom hear "Bon Voyage" or its
>> >> > equivalent. Instead it's "Oh, have a safe trip!" - unless
>> >> > it's "Really? You're going to Europe despite everything
>> >> > that's going on?"
>> >> >
>> >> > People drive three ton vehicles with exploding inflatable
>> >> > interiors to get their groceries because they are "safer."
>> >> > Doorbells have been replaced by security cameras backed up
>> >> > by semi-automatic weapons. Playgrounds don't have grass,
>> >> > they have rubber surfaces and security cameras. Some kids
>> >> > are not allowed out of their yards, and very few are allowed
>> >> > to roam and explore the neighborhood or the woods.
>> >> >
>> >> > And of course, people wear body armor for ordinary bike
>> >> > rides, and are told riding on an ordinary street is terribly
>> >> > dangerous.
>> >> >
>> >> > So many fearful people!
>> >> >
>> >> +1
>> >>
>> >> And almost all of it is theater.
>> >> Self defense training and/or a personal defense weapon is
>> >> security. Video is data not security.
>> >
>> >At work we use those hobby knives a lot, like this one:
>> >
>> >https://www.bol.com/nl/nl/p/pard-afbreekmes-b-25-mm-pa69826/9200000128399327/?Referrer=ADVNLPPcef1a600cdbf9297004e301f08001126362&utm_source=1126362&utm_medium=Affiliates&utm_campaign=CPS&utm_content=txl
>> >
>> >One day I found a whole box of them on a table near my desk with a sign 'you may take these home'. I asked why. The answer was that you may not use them anymore at work and were replaced by knives with a automatic retractable blade. You have to hold down a button to be able to cut. WTF. They are awful to work with and 10 times more expensive. I asked if I was still allowed to eat with a metal knife and fork. I put 5 of them in my drawer of my desk en took two home. . We have a special department for this nonsense. They were also responsible for the 'safety' switch' on the drill press which makes drilling a hole more dangerous. It is crazy. It is all about liability.
>> >
>> >Lou
>> (:-) I served my apprenticeship as a Machinist and worked at the
>> trade for some years and had never heard of a "safety switch" for a
>> drill press and had to look it up on Youtube. Amazing! (:-)
>>
>> --
>> Cheers,
>>
>> John B.
>I didn't know you were a trained machinist, John. That's really cool. I wish I had become a machinist rather than a lawyer. I went to law school only because I was young, lacked common sense and didn't know what else to do. I am sure I would have enjoyed being a machinist much more than practicing law.

Well, I think the difference might be "how far up does the ladder go".
A machinist, if he stays in the trade may well become "the bull of the
woods", or "shop chief" in more common terms, while a lawyer *could*
become President of the U.S.
--
Cheers,

John B.