On 9/3/2022 4:13 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Sat, 03 Sep 2022 12:24:28 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 3 Sep 2022 11:27:08 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute
>> <fiultra1@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Friday, September 2, 2022 at 2:46:54 PM UTC+1, Andre Jute wrote:
>>>> Free speech is the existential root of liberty. The Founders, thoughtful men, knew this, which is why they gave free speech Constitutional protection. That makes the Biden Administration a criminal enterprise. Here is the evidence:
>>>>
>>>> https://townhall.com/tipsheet/spencerbrown/2022/09/01/gop-ags-uncover-bombshell-proof-of-collusion-between-big-tech--biden-admin-n2612555
>>>>
>>>> Applying RICO to the White House and the DOJ and their gestapo the FBI until an impeachment can get going would probably be a good start.
>>>>
>>>> Enjoy.
>>>>
>>>> Andre Jute
>>>> If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.
>>
>>> Unless you want to share another reason why the Biden Administration is a criminal enterprise, why don't you navel watchers fuck off out of my thread and start your own.
>>>
>>> I'm not in your threads -- I don't even open them -- so what are you doing in mine? For that matter, what are you doing in Tom's threads. You're not contributing anything except disruption and a foul atmosphere. Piss off.
>>>
>>> Andre Jute
>>> Bored with these clowns.
>>
>> How am I suppose to identify that it's *YOUR* thread? I can safely
>> assume that you are the sole owner of a thread which you initiate. In
>> the recent wandering thread on "Condescending bike shop employees",
>> which you did not initiate, you added several comments. Does your
>> added comments make it your thread? If you would clearly mark your
>> claim to a particular thread, I will avoid adding my comments to them
>> in the future.
>>
>> However, if you find the topic drift, diverse opinions, anecdotes, and
>> facts which contradict your opinion to be offensive, it is possible
>> for you to establish a newsgroup with you as the sole moderator,
>> decision maker, judge, and inquisitor.
>>
>> "Create a group & choose group settings"
>> <https://support.google.com/groups/answer/2464926?hl=en>
>>
>> Incidentally, do you really run a 30,000 member writers group?
>> <https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/js-qqHYeuWw/m/nPyubE7uCgAJ>
>> Which of these writers groups on Google Groups is that?
>> <https://groups.google.com/search/groups?q=writers%20groups>
>> Hmmm... that's odd. None of the 4000+ groups found have any members
>> or activity. Three groups show last activity in 2012 or 2013.
>> Maybe on Facebook:
>> <https://www.facebook.com/groups/search/groups_home?q=writers%20group>
>> I couldn't produce a count of the number of Facebook writers groups
>> (public and private). The largest groups were:
>> Writers' Group 150,100 members
>> Writers group 51,000 members
>> Writers Group 19,000 members
>> The Writers Group 2,100 members
>> I searched all of Facebook (and these groups) for "Andre Jute" and
>> found your home page:
>> <https://www.facebook.com/andre.jute.5>
>> However, no mention of your writers group.
>>
>> So, where is your 30,000 member writers group hiding?
>>
>> "The surest sign of success is pollution and over subscription. I
>> guess Usenet is successful" (Me, about 1998).
>
> I may have found Andre's writers group(s):
> <https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/299033.Andre_Jute>
> The largest group is Amazon Kindle with 8889 members and 57 comments
> by Andre. The ROBUST group shows 4851 comments by Andre, but the last
> activity was in Apr 2019. Andre is the moderator of:
> ROBUST
> Andre's Editorial Menagerie
> Artist's Corner
> with a total of 214 members. That's hardly 30,000 members.
> So, where are the other 30,000 members hiding?

Ah yes, a writer of such international renown that he feels a need to
post off-topic insults in a bike tech discussion group just to see his
words in print! HA! :-)

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Sat, 3 Sep 2022 20:39:23 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 9/3/2022 6:19 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Sat, 03 Sep 2022 14:37:22 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>> It's a racket.
>>>
>>> For any given medical excursion, with a 'retail' price of,
>>> say, $30,000, an insurer would pay something around $10,000,
>>> a government program $6000 but the occasional poor sap with
>>> assets but not in a 'protected group' pays the otherwise
>>> fictional retail price[1]. Which leads to bizarre outcomes
>>> in which I've offered immediate cash payment at the
>>> 'insurer' rate, knowing that insurance billing runs 60 days
>>> and government billing twice that, but was refused.
>>>
>>> [1] uninsured indigents receive care and the provider writes
>>> off that 'retail' number as uncollectible debt. They have no
>>> incentive to change that system!
>>
>> All true. That was me in 2001. I had triple bypass heart surgery
>> without any insurance. I was 53 at the time. The total hospital bill
>> initially came to about $150,000. I asked from some relief and was
>> told that a nurse would look at the bill and delete anything that
>> wasn't actually done. Translation - the bill was padded. Amazingly,
>> that reduced the bill to about $130,000.
>>
>> I was then told that I could negotiate the bill with the hospital. The
>> problem was finding someone at the hospital who would actually do the
>> negotiations. About 2 weeks later, a newly hired clerk negotiated the
>> price down to $120,000. However, she informed me that if I paid cash,
>> the hospital would automatically agree to a 50% cash discount. The
>> catch was that I had to produce the cash in 30 days. That's because
>> patients without insurance usually default on the bill which then goes
>> to collections. The collection agency gets 50% of what they can
>> squeeze out of me and the hospital gets the remaining 50%. Either
>> way, the hospital gets half so they might was well keep the
>> collections agency out of the picture.
>>
>> I soon discovered that the doctors, surgeons, and others that bill
>> separately would also accept a 50% discount. The one exception was
>> the anesthesiology group, who wanted full price. I won't describe
>> refinancing my house and what it took to get about $75,000 together in
>> month, but I assure you that it was not fun, especially while I was
>> still recovering from surgery.
>>
>> Paying the bill was comical. It's quite rare when a patient pays cash
>> (actually a cashiers check) for their hospital bill. Not knowing to
>> whom to give the check, I have it to the lady who originally did the
>> admissions paperwork. The precipitated a rather odd dance in the
>> office and hallways, as my check was waved around by some rather
>> excited employees. Apparently, the hospital offers a commission to
>> anyone who collects such a payment. After about an hour, they finally
>> determined that it didn't apply to accounts where the hospital had
>> already applied a large discount.
>>
>> I was then introduced to a tiny cashiers office for payment. It took
>> about 30 minutes for someone to find the correct keys. I insisted on
>> a receipt and a copy of both sides of the check. Then they discovered
>> that not everyone had signed off on the 50% discount and I was
>> expected to run around obtaining two(?) additional signatures.
>> Fortunately, the required people appeared fairly quickly. Then the
>> rubber stamp used to endorse the check had run out of ink long ago.
>> One can speculate as to how often it was used to endorse cash
>> payments. After several tries, the correct color ink was found.
>>
>> There were later medical procedures that required similar cash
>> payments and dances. However, this 2001 version was the most
>> interesting.
>
>But I'm sure that exactly the same things happen in every country with
>nationalized health care, right? Because the convoluted American system
>is the best of all, right?
>
>(Of course, that was sarcastic.)

I wasn't going to post but the temptation is overwhelming.

My wife just had both breasts removed due to cancer. The Cost? 13,000
baht for 11 days, two operations, in a private room and food. about
$360 U.S. Had she been in a public ward there would have been no cost.
I just had my quarterly visit to the cardiologist. Total cost - 380
baht for the blood test and 50 baht for the "Nursing and Midwifery
Charge" About US$10.55 and $1.40.

To be honest this was at a "public" hospital and had I gone to a
"Private" hospital the cost would have been substantially greater.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sat, 3 Sep 2022 21:29:32 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 9/3/2022 3:24 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Sat, 3 Sep 2022 11:27:08 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute
>> <fiultra1@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm not in your threads -- I don't even open them -- so what are you doing in mine? ...
>>
>> How am I suppose to identify that it's *YOUR* thread?
>
>Jute is a troll, and not even an intelligent or interesting one. He
>doesn't deserve response.
>
>In the past, he's chided others who complained about his obnoxious
>posts, saying things like "Who appointed you Usenet policeman?" (Sorry
>if that's not precise. I barely glance at his posts and certainly don't
>try to remember them.)
>
>Anyway, the same bloviating ass who asks "Who appointed you?" now says
>to stay out of "his" thread. The man can't keep a thought straight in
>his head for a week. No wonder he considers Tom a soul mate.

Narcissistic personality disorder --

A mental condition in which people have an
inflated sense of their own importance, a deep need for excessive
attention and admiration, troubled relationships, and a lack of
empathy for others. But behind this mask of extreme confidence lies a
fragile self-esteem that's vulnerable to the slightest criticism and
frequently respond to what they perceive as criticism with insults and
threats of physical assault.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 9/3/2022 2:49 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> The causes of inflation are not only written in 95% of the books on the subject, but when the other 5% get a chance to use their mindless methods the results are high inflation and recession.

https://theweek.com/political-satire/1011477/its-bidens-fault

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Sat, 3 Sep 2022 21:31:50 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 9/3/2022 4:13 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Sat, 03 Sep 2022 12:24:28 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, 3 Sep 2022 11:27:08 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute
>>> <fiultra1@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Friday, September 2, 2022 at 2:46:54 PM UTC+1, Andre Jute wrote:
>>>>> Free speech is the existential root of liberty. The Founders, thoughtful men, knew this, which is why they gave free speech Constitutional protection. That makes the Biden Administration a criminal enterprise. Here is the evidence:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://townhall.com/tipsheet/spencerbrown/2022/09/01/gop-ags-uncover-bombshell-proof-of-collusion-between-big-tech--biden-admin-n2612555
>>>>>
>>>>> Applying RICO to the White House and the DOJ and their gestapo the FBI until an impeachment can get going would probably be a good start.
>>>>>
>>>>> Enjoy.
>>>>>
>>>>> Andre Jute
>>>>> If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.
>>>
>>>> Unless you want to share another reason why the Biden Administration is a criminal enterprise, why don't you navel watchers fuck off out of my thread and start your own.
>>>>
>>>> I'm not in your threads -- I don't even open them -- so what are you doing in mine? For that matter, what are you doing in Tom's threads. You're not contributing anything except disruption and a foul atmosphere. Piss off.
>>>>
>>>> Andre Jute
>>>> Bored with these clowns.
>>>
>>> How am I suppose to identify that it's *YOUR* thread? I can safely
>>> assume that you are the sole owner of a thread which you initiate. In
>>> the recent wandering thread on "Condescending bike shop employees",
>>> which you did not initiate, you added several comments. Does your
>>> added comments make it your thread? If you would clearly mark your
>>> claim to a particular thread, I will avoid adding my comments to them
>>> in the future.
>>>
>>> However, if you find the topic drift, diverse opinions, anecdotes, and
>>> facts which contradict your opinion to be offensive, it is possible
>>> for you to establish a newsgroup with you as the sole moderator,
>>> decision maker, judge, and inquisitor.
>>>
>>> "Create a group & choose group settings"
>>> <https://support.google.com/groups/answer/2464926?hl=en>
>>>
>>> Incidentally, do you really run a 30,000 member writers group?
>>> <https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/js-qqHYeuWw/m/nPyubE7uCgAJ>
>>> Which of these writers groups on Google Groups is that?
>>> <https://groups.google.com/search/groups?q=writers%20groups>
>>> Hmmm... that's odd. None of the 4000+ groups found have any members
>>> or activity. Three groups show last activity in 2012 or 2013.
>>> Maybe on Facebook:
>>> <https://www.facebook.com/groups/search/groups_home?q=writers%20group>
>>> I couldn't produce a count of the number of Facebook writers groups
>>> (public and private). The largest groups were:
>>> Writers' Group 150,100 members
>>> Writers group 51,000 members
>>> Writers Group 19,000 members
>>> The Writers Group 2,100 members
>>> I searched all of Facebook (and these groups) for "Andre Jute" and
>>> found your home page:
>>> <https://www.facebook.com/andre.jute.5>
>>> However, no mention of your writers group.
>>>
>>> So, where is your 30,000 member writers group hiding?
>>>
>>> "The surest sign of success is pollution and over subscription. I
>>> guess Usenet is successful" (Me, about 1998).
>>
>> I may have found Andre's writers group(s):
>> <https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/299033.Andre_Jute>
>> The largest group is Amazon Kindle with 8889 members and 57 comments
>> by Andre. The ROBUST group shows 4851 comments by Andre, but the last
>> activity was in Apr 2019. Andre is the moderator of:
>> ROBUST
>> Andre's Editorial Menagerie
>> Artist's Corner
>> with a total of 214 members. That's hardly 30,000 members.
>> So, where are the other 30,000 members hiding?
>
>Ah yes, a writer of such international renown that he feels a need to
>post off-topic insults in a bike tech discussion group just to see his
>words in print! HA! :-)

Well.... I suppose it is one way to be noticed. "Hey Honey! Somebody
noticed me today!" "That's two this week!"
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sunday, September 4, 2022 at 2:29:39 AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 9/3/2022 3:24 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> > On Sat, 3 Sep 2022 11:27:08 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute
> > <fiul...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >> I'm not in your threads -- I don't even open them -- so what are you doing in mine? ...
> >
> > How am I suppose to identify that it's *YOUR* thread?
> Jute is a troll, and not even an intelligent or interesting one. He
> doesn't deserve response.
>
> In the past, he's chided others who complained about his obnoxious
> posts, saying things like "Who appointed you Usenet policeman?" (Sorry
> if that's not precise. I barely glance at his posts and certainly don't
> try to remember them.)
>
> Anyway, the same bloviating ass who asks "Who appointed you?" now says
> to stay out of "his" thread. The man can't keep a thought straight in
> his head for a week. No wonder he considers Tom a soul mate.
>
>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski
>
You're still in my thread, Franki-boy. So why don't you fuck off and, if you ever have an idea of your own, start your own threads instead of ruining everyone else? If you can't do it out of common courtesy, then do it to prove you have some ideas of your own, a highly doubtful proposition.
>
Unsigned out of contempt for a pompous ass, who can't even work out that anyone who wants him, Krygowski, and his unsavoury sidekicks out of the first party's threads cannot be a "troll". Krygowski is too dumb to know that every here knows that a "troll" is merely someone whose arguments the slack-brained cannot counter. Stop trolling in my threads, Krygowski, and I won't even know that you exist.
>

On Sunday, September 4, 2022 at 2:38:34 AM UTC+1, John B. wrote:
> On Sat, 3 Sep 2022 21:29:32 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> >On 9/3/2022 3:24 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> >> On Sat, 3 Sep 2022 11:27:08 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute
> >> <fiul...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> I'm not in your threads -- I don't even open them -- so what are you doing in mine? ...
> >>
> >> How am I suppose to identify that it's *YOUR* thread?
> >
> >Jute is a troll, and not even an intelligent or interesting one. He
> >doesn't deserve response.
> >
> >In the past, he's chided others who complained about his obnoxious
> >posts, saying things like "Who appointed you Usenet policeman?" (Sorry
> >if that's not precise. I barely glance at his posts and certainly don't
> >try to remember them.)
> >
> >Anyway, the same bloviating ass who asks "Who appointed you?" now says
> >to stay out of "his" thread. The man can't keep a thought straight in
> >his head for a week. No wonder he considers Tom a soul mate.
> Narcissistic personality disorder --
>
> A mental condition in which people have an
> inflated sense of their own importance, a deep need for excessive
> attention and admiration, troubled relationships, and a lack of
> empathy for others. But behind this mask of extreme confidence lies a
> fragile self-esteem that's vulnerable to the slightest criticism and
> frequently respond to what they perceive as criticism with insults and
> threats of physical assault.
> --
> Cheers,
>
> John B.
>
Tell us then, Slow Johnny, how is someone who tells you to fuck out of his threads a narcissist seeking attention? Are you starting to see why I call you a slow shortass?
>
I might also ask why are Krygowski, Slow Johnny, Russell WETF, Lieberman, doing seeking attention in my threads? Why are you trolling in my threads, Shorts? Is it because you know I won't come to your threads and give you the attention you crave.
>

On Sat, 3 Sep 2022 20:39:23 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>But I'm sure that exactly the same things happen in every country with
>nationalized health care, right? Because the convoluted American system
>is the best of all, right?
>
>(Of course, that was sarcastic.)

I've only lived with the American health care system so I can't
compare it with any of the others. However, I have noticed that none
of the other countries are scrambling to adopt or copy the American
system.

"How Does the U.S. Healthcare System Compare to Other Countries?"
<https://www.pgpf.org/blog/2022/07/how-does-the-us-healthcare-system-compare-to-other-countries>

"Health Care in the U.S. Compared to Other High-Income Countries"
<https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/fund-reports/2021/aug/mirror-mirror-2021-reflecting-poorly>

Anecdote: In 2007, I needed prostate surgery. I actively pursued the
possibility of medical tourism and have the surgery in Mexico, India
or Malaysia(?). I hired a someone in India to work through the
details and provide an estimate. Initially, the cost of the surgery
and hospital stay would have been about 10% of the cost in the US.
However, because I needed to have someone with me to handle the money,
and because I would be stuck there until the hospital and airline
declared that it was safe for me to travel, the price started to
quickly increase. In addition, things are done rather differently in
offshore hospitals. In the US, a surgery is essentially flat rate
with extra charges only if something goes wrong. With medical
tourism, everything is ala carte, where everything is billed
individually including tips and bribes. It soon became apparent that
the savings were not sufficient to justify the expense. Only Mexico
looked good because I didn't need to pay for airline transport. Even
so, the total cost was estimated at about 80% of the US cost. It
wasn't worth it, so I went with a local hospital.

<https://www.patientsbeyondborders.com>

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Sun, 04 Sep 2022 07:19:01 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:
>Along those lines I've got a book, somewhere, titled "You are what you
>wear", which gives some examples. Two blokes on the bus, on one side
>of the isle the chap has a medium length haircut, neatly trimmed
>mustache, three piece suit with gold watch chain and shined shoes.
>On the other side, the bloke has hair down this back and an untrimmed
>beard and mustache, dirty tee shirt and blue jeans barely hanging on
>his arse and rubber flip-flops.
>
>The question? Which individual would you be most likely to loan $100?

Neither. In the US, using public transportation is considered an
indication that they do not have sufficient funds to purchase a car or
hire a taxi. At least it's like that on the left coast and there are
enough exceptions to make transportation mode a marginal criteria for
financial reliability.

In about 1965, I had a summer job working a local TV and Hi-Fi store.
We were somewhat close to Venice Beach, which supported a fair number
of wealthy, but very strange people. I was instructed not to judge
the customers by their appearance, but rather by their smell. If they
smelled like the inside of a garbage dumpster, they were genuinely
impoverished. However, if they smelled reasonably clean, they were
likely to be fashionably impoverished. I would say this observation
was quite accurate. I also learned quite a bit by looking at their
shoes, but I'll save that for another rant.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 9/3/2022 6:19 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Sat, 03 Sep 2022 14:37:22 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>> It's a racket.
>>>
>>> For any given medical excursion, with a 'retail' price of,
>>> say, $30,000, an insurer would pay something around $10,000,
>>> a government program $6000 but the occasional poor sap with
>>> assets but not in a 'protected group' pays the otherwise
>>> fictional retail price[1]. Which leads to bizarre outcomes
>>> in which I've offered immediate cash payment at the
>>> 'insurer' rate, knowing that insurance billing runs 60 days
>>> and government billing twice that, but was refused.
>>>
>>> [1] uninsured indigents receive care and the provider writes
>>> off that 'retail' number as uncollectible debt. They have no
>>> incentive to change that system!
>>
>> All true. That was me in 2001. I had triple bypass heart surgery
>> without any insurance. I was 53 at the time. The total hospital bill
>> initially came to about $150,000. I asked from some relief and was
>> told that a nurse would look at the bill and delete anything that
>> wasn't actually done. Translation - the bill was padded. Amazingly,
>> that reduced the bill to about $130,000.
>>
>> I was then told that I could negotiate the bill with the hospital. The
>> problem was finding someone at the hospital who would actually do the
>> negotiations. About 2 weeks later, a newly hired clerk negotiated the
>> price down to $120,000. However, she informed me that if I paid cash,
>> the hospital would automatically agree to a 50% cash discount. The
>> catch was that I had to produce the cash in 30 days. That's because
>> patients without insurance usually default on the bill which then goes
>> to collections. The collection agency gets 50% of what they can
>> squeeze out of me and the hospital gets the remaining 50%. Either
>> way, the hospital gets half so they might was well keep the
>> collections agency out of the picture.
>>
>> I soon discovered that the doctors, surgeons, and others that bill
>> separately would also accept a 50% discount. The one exception was
>> the anesthesiology group, who wanted full price. I won't describe
>> refinancing my house and what it took to get about $75,000 together in
>> month, but I assure you that it was not fun, especially while I was
>> still recovering from surgery.
>>
>> Paying the bill was comical. It's quite rare when a patient pays cash
>> (actually a cashiers check) for their hospital bill. Not knowing to
>> whom to give the check, I have it to the lady who originally did the
>> admissions paperwork. The precipitated a rather odd dance in the
>> office and hallways, as my check was waved around by some rather
>> excited employees. Apparently, the hospital offers a commission to
>> anyone who collects such a payment. After about an hour, they finally
>> determined that it didn't apply to accounts where the hospital had
>> already applied a large discount.
>>
>> I was then introduced to a tiny cashiers office for payment. It took
>> about 30 minutes for someone to find the correct keys. I insisted on
>> a receipt and a copy of both sides of the check. Then they discovered
>> that not everyone had signed off on the 50% discount and I was
>> expected to run around obtaining two(?) additional signatures.
>> Fortunately, the required people appeared fairly quickly. Then the
>> rubber stamp used to endorse the check had run out of ink long ago.
>> One can speculate as to how often it was used to endorse cash
>> payments. After several tries, the correct color ink was found.
>>
>> There were later medical procedures that required similar cash
>> payments and dances. However, this 2001 version was the most
>> interesting.
>
> But I'm sure that exactly the same things happen in every country with
> nationalized health care, right? Because the convoluted American system
> is the best of all, right?
>
> (Of course, that was sarcastic.)
>
>

During my recent medical woes, which resulted in two surgeries, a month in
a hospital bed, meds and blood tests every day, and a couple weeks of
gastric tube and IV feeding (I’m much better now, thank you), I paid maybe
$100 for dispensing fees at the pharmacy afterwards and parking while my
wife was visiting. I couldn’t imagine having to mortgage my house to pay
for it.

On Saturday, September 3, 2022 at 1:16:08 AM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> On Fri, 2 Sep 2022 22:27:42 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Friday, September 2, 2022 at 7:46:43 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> >> On Fri, 2 Sep 2022 17:21:50 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> >> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On Friday, September 2, 2022 at 6:52:18 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> >> >> On Fri, 2 Sep 2022 15:06:39 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> >> >> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >On Friday, September 2, 2022 at 12:07:53 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> >> >> On Friday, September 2, 2022 at 6:46:54 AM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
> >> >> >> > Free speech is the existential root of liberty. The Founders, thoughtful men, knew this, which is why they gave free speech Constitutional protection. That makes the Biden Administration a criminal enterprise. Here is the evidence:
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > https://townhall.com/tipsheet/spencerbrown/2022/09/01/gop-ags-uncover-bombshell-proof-of-collusion-between-big-tech--biden-admin-n2612555
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > Applying RICO to the White House and the DOJ and their gestapo the FBI until an impeachment can get going would probably be a good start.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > Enjoy.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > Andre Jute
> >> >> >> > If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.
> >> >> >> It is quite clear that the FBI IS nothing more than a Gestapo and the stupid six absolutely LOVE the idea. This is what is so annoying about them. When I read the quotes from these creeps in the headers of other messages it is absolutely incredible. I don't make up the laws of economics and inflation and its causes are in dozens of books clearly available over the counter and they say nothing more than I do. Exactly where does that brain dead example of a failed education Seaton get off not having the slightest idea what he is talking about and yet continuing to sound like nothing more than a fool? Do you suppose he is impressing people with his vast and unstoppable knowledge of, what exactly? Trump spent more money in his term than Biden has so far? Or Obama. What sort of pretend economics major wouldn't even THINK of looking up the GDP figures and seeing large increases from Trump over Obama and an almost entire loss of jobs under Biden?
> >> >> >https://usafacts.org/data/topics/economy/economic-indicators/#gdp The noise coming out of him is the same for every queer. Do you suppose he is fooling anyone?
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >You are a funny one Tommy.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Your comment about Trump spending more money than Biden is in reference to the annual budget deficit I believe. Trump increased the budget deficit in total dollars and as a percentage of GDP every year he was in office. Trump spent more than Obama. Now, I will give you that Obama spent lots in the first years of his first term. Trying to overcome the Bush2 recession. That was Bush2's parting gift to Obama. Put the USA into a recession in his final years. Good job Bush2. So Obama had to overcome those bad times. But then he made things better. And then Trump came along and reversed that. Of course.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >https://www.thebalance.com/us-deficit-by-year-3306306
> >> >> >Year Deficit Debt Inc Deficit-GDP
> >> >> >2009 $1,413 $1,885 9.80%
> >> >> >2010 $1,294 $1,652 8.60%
> >> >> >2011 $1,300 $1,229 8.30%
> >> >> >2012 $1,077 $1,276 6.60%
> >> >> >2013 $680 $672 4.00%
> >> >> >2014 $485 $1,086 2.80%
> >> >> >2015 $442 $327 2.40%
> >> >> >2016 $585 $1,423 3.10%
> >> >> >2017 $665 $671 3.40%
> >> >> >2018 $779 $1,271 3.80%
> >> >> >2019 $984 $1,203 4.60%
> >> >> >2020 $3,132 $4,226 15.00%
> >> >> >2021 $2,772 $1,484 12.10%
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Hopefully the copied table above will come out OK. Columns are Fiscal Year, Deficit in Billions/Trillions, Debt Increase, and Deficit to GDP ratio percentage. Obama's first years were high deficits to correct Bush2 recession. But by the end of his terms in 2014-2015-2016, he had gotten the deficit down. Trump takes over in 2017 and immediately increases the deficit his first three years in office. And then in 2020, Trump blows the deficit out of the water and spends like a drunken sailor on shore leave at a cathouse. Trump could not throw money out the door any faster in 2020. And then Biden comes in 2021 and lowers the deficit in his first year. Improving upon Trump. Not really difficult to improve upon Trump. And its easy to see that Deficit as a percentage of GDP was highest for Trump in 2020. But that is the Republican way. Ever since Reagan. More debt, more debt, more debt.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >This is a really funny one from our Tommy.
> >> >> >"an almost entire loss of jobs under Biden"
> >> >> >Have you been smoking the crack again Tommy? Popping the quaaludes? Smoking the Mary Jane?
> >> >> >
> >> >> >https://www.statista.com/statistics/269959/employment-in-the-united-states/
> >> >> >Job gains under Trump were in line with the job gains under Obama. During the first three Trump years, he just maintained Obama's phenomenal growth. Trump did not F it up too much. But then 2020. And Trump SLAUGHTERED employment in the USA. You will notice that Trump LOST 9.72 million jobs in his last year. Trump LOST jobs. But then Biden came along in 2021 and added an extra 4.77 million jobs. Biden added jobs.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/05/business/economy/july-jobs-report-gains.html
> >> >> >Title is "With Surge in July, U.S. Recovers the Jobs Lost in the Pandemic". See Tommy, Joe Biden has recovered all of the jobs Trump lost in 2020. It took a year and a half of his presidency to recover all the jobs Trump threw in the toilet. But Joe did it. Go Joe Go!!!!!!
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Another good one from our Tommy boy.
> >> >> >"The noise coming out of him is the same for every queer."
> >> >> >Trying to insult people by making up sexual innuendo. Tommy, simply calling people names is not a way to win an argument based upon facts and knowledge and reasoning. If you had an education, you would know this.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >And the final funny comment from our dear Tommy.
> >> >> >"I don't make up the laws of economics and inflation and its causes are in dozens of books clearly available over the counter and they say nothing more than I do."
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Here is what our Tommy boy said about inflation earlier:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Bikes on Caraigslist thread
> >> >> >cycl...@gmail.com
> >> >> >Aug 31, 2022, 4:16:57 PM (2 days ago)
> >> >> >to
> >> >> >I think that you don't understand the reasons for inflation. I argue with Janet Yellen for two days on Facebook before they suspended me for arguing with an "acknowledged expert". Inflation occurs when the money supply expands more rapidly that the good to buy (Gross National Product or GDP) This is hard and fast rule and it has occurred in every society in the world all the way back to Rome.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >And here is what the experts say causes inflation:
> >> >> >https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/111314/what-causes-inflation-and-does-anyone-gain-it.asp#:~:text=Inflation%20can%20occur%20when%20prices,pay%20more%20for%20the%20product.
> >> >> >Inflation can occur when prices rise due to increases in production costs, such as raw materials and wages.
> >> >> >A surge in demand for products and services can cause inflation as consumers are willing to pay more for the product.
> >> >> The simplest explanation is the more money sloshing around in the
> >> >> economy the higher the prices rise. The "modern"$10,000 bicycle, for
> >> >> example. when I was growing up in a little New England town where
> >> >> salaries were in the $1.00 an hour range no one would have even
> >> >> thought of buying such a thing, why, you could buy a small house for
> >> >> that much money.
> >> >>
> >> >> Today, with $15.00 an hour wages and easy credit, it's no problem at
> >> >> all.
> >> >> --
> >> >> Cheers,
> >> >>
> >> >> John B.
> >> >
> >> >John, I don't know about Thailand. But here in the USA, if you are making $15 an hour, I doubt you are the target market for $10,000 bicycles. As for buying a $10,000 bicycle on credit and paying it off over time, I am not sure there are finance plans for bicycles. At least not any widely available ones like for cars and homes. I guess you could buy a $10,000 bicycle on your credit card and pay off the credit card over time. 20% interest rate. Your bike would end up costing you about $25,000 by the time you paid it off.
> >> Granted, I haven't been in U.S. for years and years and my only real
> >> contact with the place is the Internet but I'm reading that "As of
> >> 2020, the average American has $92,727 of debt", I reckoned that if a
> >> chap was an enthusiastic cyclist he might have spent a tiny bit of
> >> that on a new bike.
> >> https://oportun.com/financial-education/how-much-debt-does-the-average-american-have/
> >>
> >> --
> >> Cheers,
> >>
> >> John B.
> >
> >John, when I read your reply I went What the F!!!!! $92,727 average debt?????? But then I clicked on the link and saw it included mortgages. OK. That makes sense. Mortgages are the big dollar debts. But I think of mortgage debt as different than the other debts. Like credit card, student loans, personal loans, car loans. With all the other debts, they are for things that are gone or worth less than what you borrowed. Whereas with home mortgage, more than likely, hopefully, your debt is on an asset that you can sell for more than your loan, pay the debt off, and walk away with cash in your pocket. Kind of like a good stock investment. You can sell it, get your money back, and walk away with cash in your pocket. So mortgages are usually a different kind of debt. Assuming you did not buy a house on mortgage that is now worth less.
> But, whatever the load is for you still owe someone money.
>
> You seem to be justifying some loans but really? Why not pay cash? My
> father never bought a car "on time" I've never bought a car "on time".
> And while my parents did borrow $1,000, once, to buy some property it
> was an interest free loan from my grandfather. Nether I, or my wife,
> has ever had a "credit" card and we've owned, lets see, two houses in
> Bangkok and one here "up country", bought for cash. We sold one
> Bangkok house so we only have two houses now.
>
> Are USians really so poor that they have to live in debt? Or are they
> just greedy people that must have what they can't afford?
>
> And, yes, I do understand the theory that it is better to buy then to
> rent but that doesn't account for such, at least to me, mammoth debt.
> --
> Cheers,
>
> John B.

On Saturday, September 3, 2022 at 11:27:04 AM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 9/3/2022 2:15 AM, John B. wrote:
> >
> > Are USians really so poor that they have to live in debt? Or are they
> > just greedy people that must have what they can't afford?
> I think we've been over this before, but my answer is: Yes.
>
> This is a culture that seeks contentment through possession. It's a
> culture that's glued to its media which, regrettably, is not Usenet, and
> which is financed by advertising.
>
> The advertising invariably shows pleasant looking people smiling with
> joy because the massive SUV they just bought has magically made all
> traffic disappear; or has teleported them to some desert where they can
> raise huge clouds of dust by sliding their vehicle sideways. Or perhaps
> their joy comes from getting their texts on an even better iPhone, for
> only $1000. Or their joy comes from replacing all the windows in their
> home,

Three months ago, early June, my Mom replaced the windows in her current house. Much better windows. Easy to open. Double pane glass for better insulation. No leaks. Definite improvement. Not sure why you would not want to do something like replacing windows in your home if it makes your life and house better. Higher resale value. Better comfort. What's not to like?

> or getting a new couch and carpet. Or from getting a new home
> security system to prevent all their expensive possessions from being
> stolen.
>
> People see all those handsome, smiling people in TV land and want to be
> just like them. When they try buying happiness that way, it's easy to
> get out ahead of actual cash flow. So here come the loans with easy
> monthly terms, or the credit card that allows you to not even think
> about the interest.
>
> (I know of a guy that does that with bicycles. He's never very happy,
> but he's always hoping that the _next_ bike, or handlebar, or
> derailleur, or crankset will bring true meaning to his life.)

Gosh. Can't imagine who this might be. Ha Ha.

>
>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski

On Saturday, September 3, 2022 at 8:35:15 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> On Sat, 3 Sep 2022 20:39:23 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> >On 9/3/2022 6:19 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> >> On Sat, 03 Sep 2022 14:37:22 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >>> It's a racket.
> >>>
> >>> For any given medical excursion, with a 'retail' price of,
> >>> say, $30,000, an insurer would pay something around $10,000,
> >>> a government program $6000 but the occasional poor sap with
> >>> assets but not in a 'protected group' pays the otherwise
> >>> fictional retail price[1]. Which leads to bizarre outcomes
> >>> in which I've offered immediate cash payment at the
> >>> 'insurer' rate, knowing that insurance billing runs 60 days
> >>> and government billing twice that, but was refused.
> >>>
> >>> [1] uninsured indigents receive care and the provider writes
> >>> off that 'retail' number as uncollectible debt. They have no
> >>> incentive to change that system!
> >>
> >> All true. That was me in 2001. I had triple bypass heart surgery
> >> without any insurance. I was 53 at the time. The total hospital bill
> >> initially came to about $150,000. I asked from some relief and was
> >> told that a nurse would look at the bill and delete anything that
> >> wasn't actually done. Translation - the bill was padded. Amazingly,
> >> that reduced the bill to about $130,000.
> >>
> >> I was then told that I could negotiate the bill with the hospital. The
> >> problem was finding someone at the hospital who would actually do the
> >> negotiations. About 2 weeks later, a newly hired clerk negotiated the
> >> price down to $120,000. However, she informed me that if I paid cash,
> >> the hospital would automatically agree to a 50% cash discount. The
> >> catch was that I had to produce the cash in 30 days. That's because
> >> patients without insurance usually default on the bill which then goes
> >> to collections. The collection agency gets 50% of what they can
> >> squeeze out of me and the hospital gets the remaining 50%. Either
> >> way, the hospital gets half so they might was well keep the
> >> collections agency out of the picture.
> >>
> >> I soon discovered that the doctors, surgeons, and others that bill
> >> separately would also accept a 50% discount. The one exception was
> >> the anesthesiology group, who wanted full price. I won't describe
> >> refinancing my house and what it took to get about $75,000 together in
> >> month, but I assure you that it was not fun, especially while I was
> >> still recovering from surgery.
> >>
> >> Paying the bill was comical. It's quite rare when a patient pays cash
> >> (actually a cashiers check) for their hospital bill. Not knowing to
> >> whom to give the check, I have it to the lady who originally did the
> >> admissions paperwork. The precipitated a rather odd dance in the
> >> office and hallways, as my check was waved around by some rather
> >> excited employees. Apparently, the hospital offers a commission to
> >> anyone who collects such a payment. After about an hour, they finally
> >> determined that it didn't apply to accounts where the hospital had
> >> already applied a large discount.
> >>
> >> I was then introduced to a tiny cashiers office for payment. It took
> >> about 30 minutes for someone to find the correct keys. I insisted on
> >> a receipt and a copy of both sides of the check. Then they discovered
> >> that not everyone had signed off on the 50% discount and I was
> >> expected to run around obtaining two(?) additional signatures.
> >> Fortunately, the required people appeared fairly quickly. Then the
> >> rubber stamp used to endorse the check had run out of ink long ago.
> >> One can speculate as to how often it was used to endorse cash
> >> payments. After several tries, the correct color ink was found.
> >>
> >> There were later medical procedures that required similar cash
> >> payments and dances. However, this 2001 version was the most
> >> interesting.
> >
> >But I'm sure that exactly the same things happen in every country with
> >nationalized health care, right? Because the convoluted American system
> >is the best of all, right?
> >
> >(Of course, that was sarcastic.)
> I wasn't going to post but the temptation is overwhelming.
>
> My wife just had both breasts removed due to cancer. The Cost? 13,000
> baht for 11 days, two operations, in a private room and food. about
> $360 U.S. Had she been in a public ward there would have been no cost.
> I just had my quarterly visit to the cardiologist. Total cost - 380
> baht for the blood test and 50 baht for the "Nursing and Midwifery
> Charge" About US$10.55 and $1.40.
>
> To be honest this was at a "public" hospital and had I gone to a
> "Private" hospital the cost would have been substantially greater.
> --
> Cheers,
>
> John B.

John, you mean like DOUBLE the price? Like $21.10 and $2.80!!!!!!!!!!!! Outrageous. 100% mark up.

On Saturday, September 3, 2022 at 9:45:57 PM UTC-5, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sun, 04 Sep 2022 07:19:01 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >Along those lines I've got a book, somewhere, titled "You are what you
> >wear", which gives some examples. Two blokes on the bus, on one side
> >of the isle the chap has a medium length haircut, neatly trimmed
> >mustache, three piece suit with gold watch chain and shined shoes.
> >On the other side, the bloke has hair down this back and an untrimmed
> >beard and mustache, dirty tee shirt and blue jeans barely hanging on
> >his arse and rubber flip-flops.
> >
> >The question? Which individual would you be most likely to loan $100?
> Neither. In the US, using public transportation is considered an
> indication that they do not have sufficient funds to purchase a car or
> hire a taxi. At least it's like that on the left coast and there are
> enough exceptions to make transportation mode a marginal criteria for
> financial reliability.

I'm guessing its a bit different in New York City. The wealthy (not the billionaires, just the millionaires) and poor both use the subway. I'm sure most personnel working on the New York Stock Exchange get there on the subway. There are two subway stops a couple blocks away from the NYSE building..

>
> In about 1965, I had a summer job working a local TV and Hi-Fi store.
> We were somewhat close to Venice Beach, which supported a fair number
> of wealthy, but very strange people. I was instructed not to judge
> the customers by their appearance, but rather by their smell. If they
> smelled like the inside of a garbage dumpster, they were genuinely
> impoverished. However, if they smelled reasonably clean, they were
> likely to be fashionably impoverished. I would say this observation
> was quite accurate. I also learned quite a bit by looking at their
> shoes, but I'll save that for another rant.
> --
> Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
> PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
> Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Sat, 3 Sep 2022 22:54:09 -0700 (PDT), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, September 3, 2022 at 8:35:15 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> On Sat, 3 Sep 2022 20:39:23 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>> >On 9/3/2022 6:19 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> >> On Sat, 03 Sep 2022 14:37:22 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> >>> It's a racket.
>> >>>
>> >>> For any given medical excursion, with a 'retail' price of,
>> >>> say, $30,000, an insurer would pay something around $10,000,
>> >>> a government program $6000 but the occasional poor sap with
>> >>> assets but not in a 'protected group' pays the otherwise
>> >>> fictional retail price[1]. Which leads to bizarre outcomes
>> >>> in which I've offered immediate cash payment at the
>> >>> 'insurer' rate, knowing that insurance billing runs 60 days
>> >>> and government billing twice that, but was refused.
>> >>>
>> >>> [1] uninsured indigents receive care and the provider writes
>> >>> off that 'retail' number as uncollectible debt. They have no
>> >>> incentive to change that system!
>> >>
>> >> All true. That was me in 2001. I had triple bypass heart surgery
>> >> without any insurance. I was 53 at the time. The total hospital bill
>> >> initially came to about $150,000. I asked from some relief and was
>> >> told that a nurse would look at the bill and delete anything that
>> >> wasn't actually done. Translation - the bill was padded. Amazingly,
>> >> that reduced the bill to about $130,000.
>> >>
>> >> I was then told that I could negotiate the bill with the hospital. The
>> >> problem was finding someone at the hospital who would actually do the
>> >> negotiations. About 2 weeks later, a newly hired clerk negotiated the
>> >> price down to $120,000. However, she informed me that if I paid cash,
>> >> the hospital would automatically agree to a 50% cash discount. The
>> >> catch was that I had to produce the cash in 30 days. That's because
>> >> patients without insurance usually default on the bill which then goes
>> >> to collections. The collection agency gets 50% of what they can
>> >> squeeze out of me and the hospital gets the remaining 50%. Either
>> >> way, the hospital gets half so they might was well keep the
>> >> collections agency out of the picture.
>> >>
>> >> I soon discovered that the doctors, surgeons, and others that bill
>> >> separately would also accept a 50% discount. The one exception was
>> >> the anesthesiology group, who wanted full price. I won't describe
>> >> refinancing my house and what it took to get about $75,000 together in
>> >> month, but I assure you that it was not fun, especially while I was
>> >> still recovering from surgery.
>> >>
>> >> Paying the bill was comical. It's quite rare when a patient pays cash
>> >> (actually a cashiers check) for their hospital bill. Not knowing to
>> >> whom to give the check, I have it to the lady who originally did the
>> >> admissions paperwork. The precipitated a rather odd dance in the
>> >> office and hallways, as my check was waved around by some rather
>> >> excited employees. Apparently, the hospital offers a commission to
>> >> anyone who collects such a payment. After about an hour, they finally
>> >> determined that it didn't apply to accounts where the hospital had
>> >> already applied a large discount.
>> >>
>> >> I was then introduced to a tiny cashiers office for payment. It took
>> >> about 30 minutes for someone to find the correct keys. I insisted on
>> >> a receipt and a copy of both sides of the check. Then they discovered
>> >> that not everyone had signed off on the 50% discount and I was
>> >> expected to run around obtaining two(?) additional signatures.
>> >> Fortunately, the required people appeared fairly quickly. Then the
>> >> rubber stamp used to endorse the check had run out of ink long ago.
>> >> One can speculate as to how often it was used to endorse cash
>> >> payments. After several tries, the correct color ink was found.
>> >>
>> >> There were later medical procedures that required similar cash
>> >> payments and dances. However, this 2001 version was the most
>> >> interesting.
>> >
>> >But I'm sure that exactly the same things happen in every country with
>> >nationalized health care, right? Because the convoluted American system
>> >is the best of all, right?
>> >
>> >(Of course, that was sarcastic.)
>> I wasn't going to post but the temptation is overwhelming.
>>
>> My wife just had both breasts removed due to cancer. The Cost? 13,000
>> baht for 11 days, two operations, in a private room and food. about
>> $360 U.S. Had she been in a public ward there would have been no cost.
>> I just had my quarterly visit to the cardiologist. Total cost - 380
>> baht for the blood test and 50 baht for the "Nursing and Midwifery
>> Charge" About US$10.55 and $1.40.
>>
>> To be honest this was at a "public" hospital and had I gone to a
>> "Private" hospital the cost would have been substantially greater.
>> --
>> Cheers,
>>
>> John B.
>
>John, you mean like DOUBLE the price? Like $21.10 and $2.80!!!!!!!!!!!! Outrageous. 100% mark up.

If you are referring to my comment about a Private hospital being more
expensive, it isn't 100% markup (:-)

When I had the pacemaker installed they cut a sort of flap in my chest
installed the device and then sewed the "flap" back in place over it
which meant that I had an "L" shaped incision in my chest, maybe 3
inches on a side, and the doctor told me that the dressing should be
changed every day so the incision could be checked for infection.

I had been getting it done at the local Government Hospital here and
the cost was 70 baht... about $2.30 US. We went to Bangkok one weekend
and I went to a private hospital to have the bandage changed and the
cost was 1,400 baht... about $46.66 U.S..

And the difference? Well at the government hospital nobody speaks
English and you get in line and when it's your turn you get up on the
table and they change your bandage. In the private hospital a "Sweet
Young Thing" meets you at the door, "Yes Sir,can I help you sir", and
leads you down to the treatment room and you get right up on the table
and your bandage gets changed and then your SYT leads you right to the
Cashier, and after you pay she leads you back to the front door and
says something like "Come back any time, Sir".

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sat, 3 Sep 2022 22:38:40 -0700 (PDT), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, September 3, 2022 at 1:16:08 AM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> On Fri, 2 Sep 2022 22:27:42 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Friday, September 2, 2022 at 7:46:43 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> >> On Fri, 2 Sep 2022 17:21:50 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>> >> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >On Friday, September 2, 2022 at 6:52:18 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> >> >> On Fri, 2 Sep 2022 15:06:39 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>> >> >> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >On Friday, September 2, 2022 at 12:07:53 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> >> >> >> On Friday, September 2, 2022 at 6:46:54 AM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
>> >> >> >> > Free speech is the existential root of liberty. The Founders, thoughtful men, knew this, which is why they gave free speech Constitutional protection. That makes the Biden Administration a criminal enterprise. Here is the evidence:
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > https://townhall.com/tipsheet/spencerbrown/2022/09/01/gop-ags-uncover-bombshell-proof-of-collusion-between-big-tech--biden-admin-n2612555
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > Applying RICO to the White House and the DOJ and their gestapo the FBI until an impeachment can get going would probably be a good start.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > Enjoy.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > Andre Jute
>> >> >> >> > If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.
>> >> >> >> It is quite clear that the FBI IS nothing more than a Gestapo and the stupid six absolutely LOVE the idea. This is what is so annoying about them. When I read the quotes from these creeps in the headers of other messages it is absolutely incredible. I don't make up the laws of economics and inflation and its causes are in dozens of books clearly available over the counter and they say nothing more than I do. Exactly where does that brain dead example of a failed education Seaton get off not having the slightest idea what he is talking about and yet continuing to sound like nothing more than a fool? Do you suppose he is impressing people with his vast and unstoppable knowledge of, what exactly? Trump spent more money in his term than Biden has so far? Or Obama. What sort of pretend economics major wouldn't even THINK of looking up the GDP figures and seeing large increases from Trump over Obama and an almost entire loss of jobs under Biden?
>> >> >> >https://usafacts.org/data/topics/economy/economic-indicators/#gdp The noise coming out of him is the same for every queer. Do you suppose he is fooling anyone?
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >You are a funny one Tommy.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >Your comment about Trump spending more money than Biden is in reference to the annual budget deficit I believe. Trump increased the budget deficit in total dollars and as a percentage of GDP every year he was in office. Trump spent more than Obama. Now, I will give you that Obama spent lots in the first years of his first term. Trying to overcome the Bush2 recession. That was Bush2's parting gift to Obama. Put the USA into a recession in his final years. Good job Bush2. So Obama had to overcome those bad times. But then he made things better. And then Trump came along and reversed that. Of course.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >https://www.thebalance.com/us-deficit-by-year-3306306
>> >> >> >Year Deficit Debt Inc Deficit-GDP
>> >> >> >2009 $1,413 $1,885 9.80%
>> >> >> >2010 $1,294 $1,652 8.60%
>> >> >> >2011 $1,300 $1,229 8.30%
>> >> >> >2012 $1,077 $1,276 6.60%
>> >> >> >2013 $680 $672 4.00%
>> >> >> >2014 $485 $1,086 2.80%
>> >> >> >2015 $442 $327 2.40%
>> >> >> >2016 $585 $1,423 3.10%
>> >> >> >2017 $665 $671 3.40%
>> >> >> >2018 $779 $1,271 3.80%
>> >> >> >2019 $984 $1,203 4.60%
>> >> >> >2020 $3,132 $4,226 15.00%
>> >> >> >2021 $2,772 $1,484 12.10%
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >Hopefully the copied table above will come out OK. Columns are Fiscal Year, Deficit in Billions/Trillions, Debt Increase, and Deficit to GDP ratio percentage. Obama's first years were high deficits to correct Bush2 recession. But by the end of his terms in 2014-2015-2016, he had gotten the deficit down. Trump takes over in 2017 and immediately increases the deficit his first three years in office. And then in 2020, Trump blows the deficit out of the water and spends like a drunken sailor on shore leave at a cathouse. Trump could not throw money out the door any faster in 2020. And then Biden comes in 2021 and lowers the deficit in his first year. Improving upon Trump. Not really difficult to improve upon Trump. And its easy to see that Deficit as a percentage of GDP was highest for Trump in 2020. But that is the Republican way. Ever since Reagan. More debt, more debt, more debt.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >This is a really funny one from our Tommy.
>> >> >> >"an almost entire loss of jobs under Biden"
>> >> >> >Have you been smoking the crack again Tommy? Popping the quaaludes? Smoking the Mary Jane?
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >https://www.statista.com/statistics/269959/employment-in-the-united-states/
>> >> >> >Job gains under Trump were in line with the job gains under Obama. During the first three Trump years, he just maintained Obama's phenomenal growth. Trump did not F it up too much. But then 2020. And Trump SLAUGHTERED employment in the USA. You will notice that Trump LOST 9.72 million jobs in his last year. Trump LOST jobs. But then Biden came along in 2021 and added an extra 4.77 million jobs. Biden added jobs.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/05/business/economy/july-jobs-report-gains.html
>> >> >> >Title is "With Surge in July, U.S. Recovers the Jobs Lost in the Pandemic". See Tommy, Joe Biden has recovered all of the jobs Trump lost in 2020. It took a year and a half of his presidency to recover all the jobs Trump threw in the toilet. But Joe did it. Go Joe Go!!!!!!
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >Another good one from our Tommy boy.
>> >> >> >"The noise coming out of him is the same for every queer."
>> >> >> >Trying to insult people by making up sexual innuendo. Tommy, simply calling people names is not a way to win an argument based upon facts and knowledge and reasoning. If you had an education, you would know this.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >And the final funny comment from our dear Tommy.
>> >> >> >"I don't make up the laws of economics and inflation and its causes are in dozens of books clearly available over the counter and they say nothing more than I do."
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >Here is what our Tommy boy said about inflation earlier:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >Bikes on Caraigslist thread
>> >> >> >cycl...@gmail.com
>> >> >> >Aug 31, 2022, 4:16:57 PM (2 days ago)
>> >> >> >to
>> >> >> >I think that you don't understand the reasons for inflation. I argue with Janet Yellen for two days on Facebook before they suspended me for arguing with an "acknowledged expert". Inflation occurs when the money supply expands more rapidly that the good to buy (Gross National Product or GDP) This is hard and fast rule and it has occurred in every society in the world all the way back to Rome.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >And here is what the experts say causes inflation:
>> >> >> >https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/111314/what-causes-inflation-and-does-anyone-gain-it.asp#:~:text=Inflation%20can%20occur%20when%20prices,pay%20more%20for%20the%20product.
>> >> >> >Inflation can occur when prices rise due to increases in production costs, such as raw materials and wages.
>> >> >> >A surge in demand for products and services can cause inflation as consumers are willing to pay more for the product.
>> >> >> The simplest explanation is the more money sloshing around in the
>> >> >> economy the higher the prices rise. The "modern"$10,000 bicycle, for
>> >> >> example. when I was growing up in a little New England town where
>> >> >> salaries were in the $1.00 an hour range no one would have even
>> >> >> thought of buying such a thing, why, you could buy a small house for
>> >> >> that much money.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Today, with $15.00 an hour wages and easy credit, it's no problem at
>> >> >> all.
>> >> >> --
>> >> >> Cheers,
>> >> >>
>> >> >> John B.
>> >> >
>> >> >John, I don't know about Thailand. But here in the USA, if you are making $15 an hour, I doubt you are the target market for $10,000 bicycles. As for buying a $10,000 bicycle on credit and paying it off over time, I am not sure there are finance plans for bicycles. At least not any widely available ones like for cars and homes. I guess you could buy a $10,000 bicycle on your credit card and pay off the credit card over time. 20% interest rate. Your bike would end up costing you about $25,000 by the time you paid it off.
>> >> Granted, I haven't been in U.S. for years and years and my only real
>> >> contact with the place is the Internet but I'm reading that "As of
>> >> 2020, the average American has $92,727 of debt", I reckoned that if a
>> >> chap was an enthusiastic cyclist he might have spent a tiny bit of
>> >> that on a new bike.
>> >> https://oportun.com/financial-education/how-much-debt-does-the-average-american-have/
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Cheers,
>> >>
>> >> John B.
>> >
>> >John, when I read your reply I went What the F!!!!! $92,727 average debt?????? But then I clicked on the link and saw it included mortgages. OK. That makes sense. Mortgages are the big dollar debts. But I think of mortgage debt as different than the other debts. Like credit card, student loans, personal loans, car loans. With all the other debts, they are for things that are gone or worth less than what you borrowed. Whereas with home mortgage, more than likely, hopefully, your debt is on an asset that you can sell for more than your loan, pay the debt off, and walk away with cash in your pocket. Kind of like a good stock investment. You can sell it, get your money back, and walk away with cash in your pocket. So mortgages are usually a different kind of debt. Assuming you did not buy a house on mortgage that is now worth less.
>> But, whatever the load is for you still owe someone money.
>>
>> You seem to be justifying some loans but really? Why not pay cash? My
>> father never bought a car "on time" I've never bought a car "on time".
>> And while my parents did borrow $1,000, once, to buy some property it
>> was an interest free loan from my grandfather. Nether I, or my wife,
>> has ever had a "credit" card and we've owned, lets see, two houses in
>> Bangkok and one here "up country", bought for cash. We sold one
>> Bangkok house so we only have two houses now.
>>
>> Are USians really so poor that they have to live in debt? Or are they
>> just greedy people that must have what they can't afford?
>>
>> And, yes, I do understand the theory that it is better to buy then to
>> rent but that doesn't account for such, at least to me, mammoth debt.
>> --
>> Cheers,
>>
>> John B.
>
>John, if you go over to Google and type in history of mortgages. You will see that mortgages for houses and property have existed for thousands of years. Ancient Rome and Greece and before too. In the USA, mortgages have been around since the founding of the country. But they really took off after WW2. All the returning GIs buying new houses in the suburbs. It is also very common in the USA for farmers to get a loan at the beginning of the season to buy and plant crops. Then repay it at the end of the season after harvest. That might be more of a business loan. But borrowing money has been common in the USA and everywhere else in the world for thousands of years.

On 9/3/2022 9:30 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Sat, 3 Sep 2022 20:39:23 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> But I'm sure that exactly the same things happen in every country with
>> nationalized health care, right? Because the convoluted American system
>> is the best of all, right?
>>
>> (Of course, that was sarcastic.)
>
> I've only lived with the American health care system so I can't
> compare it with any of the others. However, I have noticed that none
> of the other countries are scrambling to adopt or copy the American
> system.
>
> "How Does the U.S. Healthcare System Compare to Other Countries?"
> <https://www.pgpf.org/blog/2022/07/how-does-the-us-healthcare-system-compare-to-other-countries>
>
> "Health Care in the U.S. Compared to Other High-Income Countries"
> <https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/fund-reports/2021/aug/mirror-mirror-2021-reflecting-poorly>
>
> Anecdote: In 2007, I needed prostate surgery. I actively pursued the
> possibility of medical tourism and have the surgery in Mexico, India
> or Malaysia(?). I hired a someone in India to work through the
> details and provide an estimate. Initially, the cost of the surgery
> and hospital stay would have been about 10% of the cost in the US.
> However, because I needed to have someone with me to handle the money,
> and because I would be stuck there until the hospital and airline
> declared that it was safe for me to travel, the price started to
> quickly increase. In addition, things are done rather differently in
> offshore hospitals. In the US, a surgery is essentially flat rate
> with extra charges only if something goes wrong. With medical
> tourism, everything is ala carte, where everything is billed
> individually including tips and bribes. It soon became apparent that
> the savings were not sufficient to justify the expense. Only Mexico
> looked good because I didn't need to pay for airline transport. Even
> so, the total cost was estimated at about 80% of the US cost. It
> wasn't worth it, so I went with a local hospital.
>
> <https://www.patientsbeyondborders.com>
>
>

Yes, a complex decision and sometimes the critical factor is
not price differential:

https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/63-000-canadians-left-the-country-for-medical-treatment-last-year-fraser-institute-1.3486635

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 9/4/2022 12:44 AM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Saturday, September 3, 2022 at 11:27:04 AM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 9/3/2022 2:15 AM, John B. wrote:
>>>
>>> Are USians really so poor that they have to live in debt? Or are they
>>> just greedy people that must have what they can't afford?
>> I think we've been over this before, but my answer is: Yes.
>>
>> This is a culture that seeks contentment through possession. It's a
>> culture that's glued to its media which, regrettably, is not Usenet, and
>> which is financed by advertising.
>>
>> The advertising invariably shows pleasant looking people smiling with
>> joy because the massive SUV they just bought has magically made all
>> traffic disappear; or has teleported them to some desert where they can
>> raise huge clouds of dust by sliding their vehicle sideways. Or perhaps
>> their joy comes from getting their texts on an even better iPhone, for
>> only $1000. Or their joy comes from replacing all the windows in their
>> home,
>
> Three months ago, early June, my Mom replaced the windows in her current house. Much better windows. Easy to open. Double pane glass for better insulation. No leaks. Definite improvement. Not sure why you would not want to do something like replacing windows in your home if it makes your life and house better. Higher resale value. Better comfort. What's not to like?
>
>
>
>> or getting a new couch and carpet. Or from getting a new home
>> security system to prevent all their expensive possessions from being
>> stolen.
>>
>> People see all those handsome, smiling people in TV land and want to be
>> just like them. When they try buying happiness that way, it's easy to
>> get out ahead of actual cash flow. So here come the loans with easy
>> monthly terms, or the credit card that allows you to not even think
>> about the interest.
>>
>> (I know of a guy that does that with bicycles. He's never very happy,
>> but he's always hoping that the _next_ bike, or handlebar, or
>> derailleur, or crankset will bring true meaning to his life.)
>
> Gosh. Can't imagine who this might be. Ha Ha.
>
>
>>
>>
>> --
>> - Frank Krygowski

You do understand it, but like others in this thread, choose
to ignore actual cost of providing the service,
concentrating on nominal end user fee while ignoring those
who actually bear the expense.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 9/3/2022 9:45 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
> On Sunday, September 4, 2022 at 2:29:39 AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 9/3/2022 3:24 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>> On Sat, 3 Sep 2022 11:27:08 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute
>>> <fiul...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I'm not in your threads -- I don't even open them -- so what are you doing in mine? ...
>>>
>>> How am I suppose to identify that it's *YOUR* thread?
>> Jute is a troll, and not even an intelligent or interesting one. He
>> doesn't deserve response.
>>
>> In the past, he's chided others who complained about his obnoxious
>> posts, saying things like "Who appointed you Usenet policeman?" (Sorry
>> if that's not precise. I barely glance at his posts and certainly don't
>> try to remember them.)
>>
>> Anyway, the same bloviating ass who asks "Who appointed you?" now says
>> to stay out of "his" thread. The man can't keep a thought straight in
>> his head for a week. No wonder he considers Tom a soul mate.
>>
>>
>> --
>> - Frank Krygowski
>>
> You're still in my thread, Franki-boy.

<yawn> Boring.

"A troll is ‘A computer user who constructs the identity of sincerely
wishing to be part of the group in question . . . but whose real
intention is to cause disruption and/or trigger conflict for the
purposes of their own amusement."

— Dr. Claire Hardaker, academic researcher

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 9/3/2022 10:30 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Sat, 3 Sep 2022 20:39:23 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> But I'm sure that exactly the same things happen in every country with
>> nationalized health care, right? Because the convoluted American system
>> is the best of all, right?
>>
>> (Of course, that was sarcastic.)
>
> I've only lived with the American health care system so I can't
> compare it with any of the others. However, I have noticed that none
> of the other countries are scrambling to adopt or copy the American
> system.
>
> "How Does the U.S. Healthcare System Compare to Other Countries?"
> <https://www.pgpf.org/blog/2022/07/how-does-the-us-healthcare-system-compare-to-other-countries>
>
> "Health Care in the U.S. Compared to Other High-Income Countries"
> <https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/fund-reports/2021/aug/mirror-mirror-2021-reflecting-poorly>
>
> Anecdote: In 2007, I needed prostate surgery. I actively pursued the
> possibility of medical tourism and have the surgery in Mexico, India
> or Malaysia(?). I hired a someone in India to work through the
> details and provide an estimate. Initially, the cost of the surgery
> and hospital stay would have been about 10% of the cost in the US.
> However, because I needed to have someone with me to handle the money,
> and because I would be stuck there until the hospital and airline
> declared that it was safe for me to travel, the price started to
> quickly increase. In addition, things are done rather differently in
> offshore hospitals. In the US, a surgery is essentially flat rate
> with extra charges only if something goes wrong. With medical
> tourism, everything is ala carte, where everything is billed
> individually including tips and bribes. It soon became apparent that
> the savings were not sufficient to justify the expense. Only Mexico
> looked good because I didn't need to pay for airline transport. Even
> so, the total cost was estimated at about 80% of the US cost. It
> wasn't worth it, so I went with a local hospital.
>
> <https://www.patientsbeyondborders.com>

My wife and I have had only a tiny bit of experience with medical
treatments in Europe - once for me, twice for her, all quite minor. The
biggest expense, IIRC, was between $100 and $200 for a burn my wife
suffered. Since that was "emergency," that should have been 100% covered
by our really excellent medical coverage (we're lucky that way), but the
insurance company refused because all the documentation was not in
English! Two other visits were to clinics. One was free, IIRC, the other
cost less than $20.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 9/4/2022 1:44 AM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Saturday, September 3, 2022 at 11:27:04 AM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>
>> This is a culture that seeks contentment through possession. It's a
>> culture that's glued to its media which, regrettably, is not Usenet, and
>> which is financed by advertising.
>>
>> The advertising invariably shows pleasant looking people smiling with
>> joy because the massive SUV they just bought has magically made all
>> traffic disappear; or has teleported them to some desert where they can
>> raise huge clouds of dust by sliding their vehicle sideways. Or perhaps
>> their joy comes from getting their texts on an even better iPhone, for
>> only $1000. Or their joy comes from replacing all the windows in their
>> home,
>
> Three months ago, early June, my Mom replaced the windows in her current house. Much better windows. Easy to open. Double pane glass for better insulation. No leaks. Definite improvement. Not sure why you would not want to do something like replacing windows in your home if it makes your life and house better. Higher resale value. Better comfort. What's not to like?

Well, it depends. I know a young-ish couple whose house I used to visit
frequently. I even helped the guy with some home repairs.

Their windows were a bit funky. Nothing major by my standards, but
sometimes a bit of an irritation to them. If I were there more often, I
could have fixed all the problems a bit at a time.

One day they announced to me that they were investing in new windows.
The woman said "They're going to pay for themselves in energy savings."

I chose not to disagree, but I was sure she was wrong, and she was
believing a sales pitch. I used to be heavily into such calculations.
Absent actual air leaks, the energy efficiency gains from new windows
compared to traditional windows plus separate storm windows are marginal
at best.

Again, I worked this out on my own decades ago, referring to tables of U
values and R values. The facts are now easy to find on the internet:

https://www.thespruce.com/do-replacement-windows-pay-for-themselves-1822914

https://www.pvhvac.com/blog/replacing-your-windows-dont-do-it-for-the-energy-savings

https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=112451988 etc. etc.

Our house has (mostly) original double hung, leaded glass windoes from
1943. I've been very diligent over the years with weatherstripping,
caulking, insulating blinds, etc. Once air leaks are addressed, the
smart move is to ignore the windows and deal with greater sources of
energy loss.

Example: How many here have caulked the band joist above their basement
walls? I did that the first year we were in the house, using some smelly
but super-high-performance industrial caulk. I caulked from the outside,
and the basement was full of the smell - proof that the band joist was a
serious source of leakage.

I also insulated that band joist, something I suspect very few people
do. You may have an R value of ~4 through band joist plus sheathing, and
it can easily be 100 square feet of area. With infiltration and
conduction/convection losses, it probably dwarfs the losses of any half
decently weatherstripped windows with storm windows.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Sunday, September 4, 2022 at 2:54:30 AM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> On Sat, 3 Sep 2022 22:54:09 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Saturday, September 3, 2022 at 8:35:15 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> >> On Sat, 3 Sep 2022 20:39:23 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> >> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On 9/3/2022 6:19 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> >> >> On Sat, 03 Sep 2022 14:37:22 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >> >>> It's a racket.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> For any given medical excursion, with a 'retail' price of,
> >> >>> say, $30,000, an insurer would pay something around $10,000,
> >> >>> a government program $6000 but the occasional poor sap with
> >> >>> assets but not in a 'protected group' pays the otherwise
> >> >>> fictional retail price[1]. Which leads to bizarre outcomes
> >> >>> in which I've offered immediate cash payment at the
> >> >>> 'insurer' rate, knowing that insurance billing runs 60 days
> >> >>> and government billing twice that, but was refused.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> [1] uninsured indigents receive care and the provider writes
> >> >>> off that 'retail' number as uncollectible debt. They have no
> >> >>> incentive to change that system!
> >> >>
> >> >> All true. That was me in 2001. I had triple bypass heart surgery
> >> >> without any insurance. I was 53 at the time. The total hospital bill
> >> >> initially came to about $150,000. I asked from some relief and was
> >> >> told that a nurse would look at the bill and delete anything that
> >> >> wasn't actually done. Translation - the bill was padded. Amazingly,
> >> >> that reduced the bill to about $130,000.
> >> >>
> >> >> I was then told that I could negotiate the bill with the hospital. The
> >> >> problem was finding someone at the hospital who would actually do the
> >> >> negotiations. About 2 weeks later, a newly hired clerk negotiated the
> >> >> price down to $120,000. However, she informed me that if I paid cash,
> >> >> the hospital would automatically agree to a 50% cash discount. The
> >> >> catch was that I had to produce the cash in 30 days. That's because
> >> >> patients without insurance usually default on the bill which then goes
> >> >> to collections. The collection agency gets 50% of what they can
> >> >> squeeze out of me and the hospital gets the remaining 50%. Either
> >> >> way, the hospital gets half so they might was well keep the
> >> >> collections agency out of the picture.
> >> >>
> >> >> I soon discovered that the doctors, surgeons, and others that bill
> >> >> separately would also accept a 50% discount. The one exception was
> >> >> the anesthesiology group, who wanted full price. I won't describe
> >> >> refinancing my house and what it took to get about $75,000 together in
> >> >> month, but I assure you that it was not fun, especially while I was
> >> >> still recovering from surgery.
> >> >>
> >> >> Paying the bill was comical. It's quite rare when a patient pays cash
> >> >> (actually a cashiers check) for their hospital bill. Not knowing to
> >> >> whom to give the check, I have it to the lady who originally did the
> >> >> admissions paperwork. The precipitated a rather odd dance in the
> >> >> office and hallways, as my check was waved around by some rather
> >> >> excited employees. Apparently, the hospital offers a commission to
> >> >> anyone who collects such a payment. After about an hour, they finally
> >> >> determined that it didn't apply to accounts where the hospital had
> >> >> already applied a large discount.
> >> >>
> >> >> I was then introduced to a tiny cashiers office for payment. It took
> >> >> about 30 minutes for someone to find the correct keys. I insisted on
> >> >> a receipt and a copy of both sides of the check. Then they discovered
> >> >> that not everyone had signed off on the 50% discount and I was
> >> >> expected to run around obtaining two(?) additional signatures.
> >> >> Fortunately, the required people appeared fairly quickly. Then the
> >> >> rubber stamp used to endorse the check had run out of ink long ago.
> >> >> One can speculate as to how often it was used to endorse cash
> >> >> payments. After several tries, the correct color ink was found.
> >> >>
> >> >> There were later medical procedures that required similar cash
> >> >> payments and dances. However, this 2001 version was the most
> >> >> interesting.
> >> >
> >> >But I'm sure that exactly the same things happen in every country with
> >> >nationalized health care, right? Because the convoluted American system
> >> >is the best of all, right?
> >> >
> >> >(Of course, that was sarcastic.)
> >> I wasn't going to post but the temptation is overwhelming.
> >>
> >> My wife just had both breasts removed due to cancer. The Cost? 13,000
> >> baht for 11 days, two operations, in a private room and food. about
> >> $360 U.S. Had she been in a public ward there would have been no cost.
> >> I just had my quarterly visit to the cardiologist. Total cost - 380
> >> baht for the blood test and 50 baht for the "Nursing and Midwifery
> >> Charge" About US$10.55 and $1.40.
> >>
> >> To be honest this was at a "public" hospital and had I gone to a
> >> "Private" hospital the cost would have been substantially greater.
> >> --
> >> Cheers,
> >>
> >> John B.
> >
> >John, you mean like DOUBLE the price? Like $21.10 and $2.80!!!!!!!!!!!! Outrageous. 100% mark up.
> If you are referring to my comment about a Private hospital being more
> expensive, it isn't 100% markup (:-)
>
> When I had the pacemaker installed they cut a sort of flap in my chest
> installed the device and then sewed the "flap" back in place over it
> which meant that I had an "L" shaped incision in my chest, maybe 3
> inches on a side, and the doctor told me that the dressing should be
> changed every day so the incision could be checked for infection.
>
> I had been getting it done at the local Government Hospital here and
> the cost was 70 baht... about $2.30 US. We went to Bangkok one weekend
> and I went to a private hospital to have the bandage changed and the
> cost was 1,400 baht... about $46.66 U.S..
>
> And the difference? Well at the government hospital nobody speaks
> English and you get in line and when it's your turn you get up on the
> table and they change your bandage. In the private hospital a "Sweet
> Young Thing" meets you at the door, "Yes Sir,can I help you sir", and
> leads you down to the treatment room and you get right up on the table
> and your bandage gets changed and then your SYT leads you right to the
> Cashier, and after you pay she leads you back to the front door and
> says something like "Come back any time, Sir".
>
> --
> Cheers,
>
> John B.

$44.36 to have a sweet young thing talk to you and look at. That might be worth it.

On Sun, 04 Sep 2022 08:59:28 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>Yes, a complex decision and sometimes the critical factor is
>not price differential:
>
>https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/63-000-canadians-left-the-country-for-medical-treatment-last-year-fraser-institute-1.3486635

One of my friends told me this story. His father lived in Canada and
needed some kind of surgery. After about 9(?) months of delays and
postponements, he died. He had the money and the option to have the
surgery done across the border in US, but for some unknown reason,
chose to wait. Wrong decision.

That was also part of my problem. I was monitoring my PSA score
trying to delay surgery as long as possible.
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/crud/psa.jpg>
(The big bump in Jan 2007 is from a kidney stone and can be ignored).
At 10.0 the procedures and risks change dramatically. That changed a
slow growing tumor into a crisis. Offshore surgery (when paying cash)
can be done almost immediately. Local hospital surgeries are
chronically delayed. I decided to cover my bets and do both. I threw
some money away getting things arranged to go to Mexico:
<https://www.angeleshealth.com>
After 5 postponements, the local hospital agreed to do the surgery
without further delays. They tried to delay surgery one more time but
that failed.

My urologist also gave me a tempting offer. He had just completed
training on the DaVinci robot assisted surgery machine:
<https://www.davincisurgery.com>
and wanted to try it on me as his first patient/victim. I had 15
seconds to make the decision. Because it was his first and because
the local hospital didn't have a machine causing us to burn more time
looking for an available machine, I declined his generous offer.

Moral: Nothing is simple or goes according the plan.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/crud/genesis.txt>
And the lord looked upon the usenet wasteland and proclaimed
"I have given unto thee a temple upon which thou may rant.
Instead, though hath turned my temple into a den of iniquity
and dung hole of misinformation. Unto thy ancestors, I
gave 10 commandments, but unto thee I shall give but one;
Thou shalt not post what thou also find unworthy of reading."

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Sunday, September 4, 2022 at 8:59:34 AM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> On 9/3/2022 9:30 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> > On Sat, 3 Sep 2022 20:39:23 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> > <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >
> >> But I'm sure that exactly the same things happen in every country with
> >> nationalized health care, right? Because the convoluted American system
> >> is the best of all, right?
> >>
> >> (Of course, that was sarcastic.)
> >
> > I've only lived with the American health care system so I can't
> > compare it with any of the others. However, I have noticed that none
> > of the other countries are scrambling to adopt or copy the American
> > system.
> >
> > "How Does the U.S. Healthcare System Compare to Other Countries?"
> > <https://www.pgpf.org/blog/2022/07/how-does-the-us-healthcare-system-compare-to-other-countries>
> >
> > "Health Care in the U.S. Compared to Other High-Income Countries"
> > <https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/fund-reports/2021/aug/mirror-mirror-2021-reflecting-poorly>
> >
> > Anecdote: In 2007, I needed prostate surgery. I actively pursued the
> > possibility of medical tourism and have the surgery in Mexico, India
> > or Malaysia(?). I hired a someone in India to work through the
> > details and provide an estimate. Initially, the cost of the surgery
> > and hospital stay would have been about 10% of the cost in the US.
> > However, because I needed to have someone with me to handle the money,
> > and because I would be stuck there until the hospital and airline
> > declared that it was safe for me to travel, the price started to
> > quickly increase. In addition, things are done rather differently in
> > offshore hospitals. In the US, a surgery is essentially flat rate
> > with extra charges only if something goes wrong. With medical
> > tourism, everything is ala carte, where everything is billed
> > individually including tips and bribes. It soon became apparent that
> > the savings were not sufficient to justify the expense. Only Mexico
> > looked good because I didn't need to pay for airline transport. Even
> > so, the total cost was estimated at about 80% of the US cost. It
> > wasn't worth it, so I went with a local hospital.
> >
> > <https://www.patientsbeyondborders.com>
> >
> >
> Yes, a complex decision and sometimes the critical factor is
> not price differential:
>
> https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/63-000-canadians-left-the-country-for-medical-treatment-last-year-fraser-institute-1.3486635
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Your link says 63,000 Canadians traveled to foreign countries for medical care in 2016. The supporters of the article claim it was all due to wait times for government provided health care. Canada had 36 million population in 2016. That is 0.175%. Or 1.75 patients out of 1000 patients. A hair under one in 500 chances. Don't know about you, but if I went to Las Vegas and the chance of winning a bet was less than one in 500, I probably would not bet.

The story also had this interesting quote: "Still, an Ontario mayor who went to Germany for an experimental cancer treatment he couldn't get in Canada called the Fraser Institute report "damning."
So an Ontario mayor is complaining about Canada not having the latest experimental medical procedures. Makes you wonder if back in 1953 when Jonas Salk invented the polio vaccine, if the mayor of Ontario, mayor of Toronto, mayor of Vancouver, mayor of London, mayor of Paris, mayor of Madrid, mayor of Brussels, mayor of Copenhagen, mayor of Oslo, didn't scream and yell at their government health workers about why they did not have a polio vaccine.. Why did they have to wait a few more years for the Americans to finally get the polio vaccine over to them.