Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> writes:

> On 9/1/2022 11:14 PM, Richard Smith wrote:
>> Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> writes:
>>
>>> ...
>>
>> ...
>
>
>
> Its funny. I never wanted to learn to weld aluminum. I had a boat
> project all setup, and I took it over to a local pro welding shop. He
> told me, "No problem. Come pick it up in two weeks."
>
> In two weeks he said, "Well I had a big important government job
> in. Its going to be done in two weeks."
>
> Now at 4 weeks... "Sorry its harvest season and all these big
> important farmers are bringing in their stuff. Give me two weeks."
>
> I gave him a month.
>
> At 8 weeks I stopped by and he said,
> Something... something... something... two weeks."
>
> At a full 3 months it was finally done WRONG, and one thing that was
> supposed to be welded wasn't. I pointed that out, and he welded that
> wrong too, on the spot but atleast it would work until I ground it out
> a couple years later and re-welded it myself. I noted he had also used
> 4043 on my 5052 plates. By that time I had learned that much. Sigh!
>
> I had other aluminum boat projects I wanted to do, but I didn't want
> to wait two weeks for three months every time I was ready for
> something to be welded. I get it. My few hundred dollar weld job was
> always going to be less important than any big farmer or government
> agency. That's reality. I accept that. I started looking for a
> "better" welding machine for my shop that I could also use for
> aluminum boat projects. The dual gun Miller 212 seemed like a best
> compromise at the time. I thought aluminum would be a bit of a
> struggle and learning curve, and steel had to be easier than my little
> flux box. Little did I know I was only half right. LOL.
>
> Had that welding shop actually done my job in two weeks I would
> probably still be taking any aluminum welding work I had to them
> today. Many years later. Yes they are still in business.
>
> --
> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
> www.avg.com

Hi Bob

That's some background story.
There's a lot of determination and persistence in that, for sure.

I've no experience of this, but anyway...
5052 is the only 5000-series which can be welded with 4043 filler
wire.

It's due to its lower Mg content, which leaves it still corrosion
resistant but not susceptible to Stress Corrosion Cracking - at a cost
of being crack-susceptible in welding.

That Stress Corrosion Cracking - for lovely (?) higher-Mg alloys like
5083, there is the misfortune that it is SCC susceptible from 65C.
Which can be unfortunate if your boat/ship is in a hot place with the
sun beating down on it and seawater / salt on deck...

So, here is good comment:

https://www.thefabricator.com/thewelder/article/aluminumwelding/aluminum-workshop-where-in-the-world-is-the-5052-filler-alloy-
"Aluminum Workshop: Where in the world is the 5052 filler alloy?"

"
....
So what filler should you use? Not surprisingly, 5356 is a very good
choice. More surprisingly, 4043 also is a very good choice. In all
other base/filler combinations, it is never recommended to weld a 5XXX
alloy with 4043. However, the magnesium content of 5052 is low enough
that 4043 works just fine.
"

Also see Lincoln
c8100.pdf
"Aluminum GMAW - Gas Metal Arc Welding for Aluminum Guide"

I'm inviting comment here, everyone...
A reason for using 5356 is it's so stiff you can use a "conventional"
GMAW machine with a "push" wirefeeder. Although Al fitments. Polymer
guides and liner; U-groove drive-rolls.
I've never used 4043...

Anyway, boats...

Quite some driven endeavour...?!

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:tetr8e$12o2$1@gioia.aioe.org...
.....

Here's how to weld your boat with your milling machine:

https://www.mmsonline.com/articles/friction-stir-welding-machining-on-one-platform

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friction_stir_welding

No flux, filler or shielding gas required. It looks like an update to forge
welding, in which the metal softens to stickiness but doesn't melt. Who knew
you could join metal together by ripping it apart?

On 9/2/2022 7:02 PM, Richard Smith wrote:
> Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> writes:
>
>> On 9/1/2022 11:14 PM, Richard Smith wrote:
>>> Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> writes:
>>>
>>>> ...
>>>
>>> ...
>>
>>
>>
>> Its funny. I never wanted to learn to weld aluminum. I had a boat
>> project all setup, and I took it over to a local pro welding shop. He
>> told me, "No problem. Come pick it up in two weeks."
>>
>> In two weeks he said, "Well I had a big important government job
>> in. Its going to be done in two weeks."
>>
>> Now at 4 weeks... "Sorry its harvest season and all these big
>> important farmers are bringing in their stuff. Give me two weeks."
>>
>> I gave him a month.
>>
>> At 8 weeks I stopped by and he said,
>> Something... something... something... two weeks."
>>
>> At a full 3 months it was finally done WRONG, and one thing that was
>> supposed to be welded wasn't. I pointed that out, and he welded that
>> wrong too, on the spot but atleast it would work until I ground it out
>> a couple years later and re-welded it myself. I noted he had also used
>> 4043 on my 5052 plates. By that time I had learned that much. Sigh!
>>
>> I had other aluminum boat projects I wanted to do, but I didn't want
>> to wait two weeks for three months every time I was ready for
>> something to be welded. I get it. My few hundred dollar weld job was
>> always going to be less important than any big farmer or government
>> agency. That's reality. I accept that. I started looking for a
>> "better" welding machine for my shop that I could also use for
>> aluminum boat projects. The dual gun Miller 212 seemed like a best
>> compromise at the time. I thought aluminum would be a bit of a
>> struggle and learning curve, and steel had to be easier than my little
>> flux box. Little did I know I was only half right. LOL.
>>
>> Had that welding shop actually done my job in two weeks I would
>> probably still be taking any aluminum welding work I had to them
>> today. Many years later. Yes they are still in business.
>>
>> --
>> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
>> www.avg.com
>
> Hi Bob
>
> That's some background story.
> There's a lot of determination and persistence in that, for sure.
>

Its kind of funny. Some years back a friend went over to that same
shop. He asked me first, but I didn't want to have somebody else trust
their life to my welding. After quite some time he picked his boat up
and dropped it in my driveway. "Bob, I don't care if you aren't as
good. I just want to get it done before I die so I can go fishing." I
told him my limitations and that it could well break again because I
didn't know what I was doing, but I fixed it. Many years later my
friend has died (I sat with him for a couple hours the day he died), but
he got to fishing out of his boat many times before that. The boat now
sits in my driveway. My welds didn't break and the boat didn't sink.

> I've no experience of this, but anyway...
> 5052 is the only 5000-series which can be welded with 4043 filler
> wire.
>
> It's due to its lower Mg content, which leaves it still corrosion
> resistant but not susceptible to Stress Corrosion Cracking - at a cost
> of being crack-susceptible in welding.
>
> That Stress Corrosion Cracking - for lovely (?) higher-Mg alloys like
> 5083, there is the misfortune that it is SCC susceptible from 65C.
> Which can be unfortunate if your boat/ship is in a hot place with the
> sun beating down on it and seawater / salt on deck...
>
> So, here is good comment:
>
> https://www.thefabricator.com/thewelder/article/aluminumwelding/aluminum-workshop-where-in-the-world-is-the-5052-filler-alloy-
> "Aluminum Workshop: Where in the world is the 5052 filler alloy?"
>
> "
> ...
> So what filler should you use? Not surprisingly, 5356 is a very good
> choice. More surprisingly, 4043 also is a very good choice. In all
> other base/filler combinations, it is never recommended to weld a 5XXX
> alloy with 4043. However, the magnesium content of 5052 is low enough
> that 4043 works just fine.
> "

I had always been told to use 5356 with 5052. Multiple references
seemed to back that up including other people in this group and the SEJW
group which was more active at the time. I did run across an article
about a guy who was building a submarine using 4043 and 6061 because he
liked the way it welded better, but I never followed up on it to see if
his boat sank like it was supposed to or if it just sank. I seem to
recall also that (for TIG anyway) there are some other alloy fillers
that are suitable for a wider range of alloys, but again. Never
followed up on it. At the time I was told 5052 for all things boat
except heavy structural.

> Also see Lincoln
> c8100.pdf
> "Aluminum GMAW - Gas Metal Arc Welding for Aluminum Guide"
>
>
> I'm inviting comment here, everyone...
> A reason for using 5356 is it's so stiff you can use a "conventional"
> GMAW machine with a "push" wirefeeder. Although Al fitments. Polymer
> guides and liner; U-groove drive-rolls.
> I've never used 4043...

I did not know that. Imagine my consternation if I had tried to run
5356 aluminum in my regular MIG stinger back when I first bought the
Miller 212. LOL. Thank goodness it was dual stinger with a spool gun
or I might have completely given up on the machine.

>
> Anyway, boats...
>
> Quite some driven endeavour...?!

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:

> "Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:tetr8e$12o2$1@gioia.aioe.org...
> ....
>
> Here's how to weld your boat with your milling machine:
>
> https://www.mmsonline.com/articles/friction-stir-welding-machining-on-one-platform
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friction_stir_welding
>
> No flux, filler or shielding gas required. It looks like an update to
> forge welding, in which the metal softens to stickiness but doesn't
> melt. Who knew you could join metal together by ripping it apart?

My Doctoral research supervisor described Wayne Thomas (credited
inventor of Friction Stir Welding(?)) coming by that workshop and
trying out his ideal - using the milling machine I was using to
machine steel plate into samples - with "tools" they improvised as
they went along - and finding - it works!!!

On 9/3/2022 12:01 PM, Richard Smith wrote:
> "Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> "Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:tetr8e$12o2$1@gioia.aioe.org...
>> ....
>>
>> Here's how to weld your boat with your milling machine:
>>
>> https://www.mmsonline.com/articles/friction-stir-welding-machining-on-one-platform
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friction_stir_welding
>>
>> No flux, filler or shielding gas required. It looks like an update to
>> forge welding, in which the metal softens to stickiness but doesn't
>> melt. Who knew you could join metal together by ripping it apart?
>
> My Doctoral research supervisor described Wayne Thomas (credited
> inventor of Friction Stir Welding(?)) coming by that workshop and
> trying out his ideal - using the milling machine I was using to
> machine steel plate into samples - with "tools" they improvised as
> they went along - and finding - it works!!!

I've seen some friction welding vids (using lathe) on YouTube, but I
never wanted to put that much heat into my machine. It looks neat, but
I suspect if you aren't running 5 ton or heavier machine to sink the
excess it will heat up things that should remain room temperature.
Maybe not, but it gives me the willies given that all my machines came
out of my pocket.

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:tf0eff$1pgk$1@gioia.aioe.org...

I've seen some friction welding vids (using lathe) on YouTube, but I
never wanted to put that much heat into my machine. It looks neat, but
I suspect if you aren't running 5 ton or heavier machine to sink the
excess it will heat up things that should remain room temperature.
Maybe not, but it gives me the willies given that all my machines came
out of my pocket.

---------------------

I wasn't willing to push my old 10" lathe hard enough to make friction
welding succeed.

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lyilm4z3i6.fsf@void.com...

My Doctoral research supervisor described Wayne Thomas (credited
inventor of Friction Stir Welding(?)) coming by that workshop and
trying out his ideal - using the milling machine I was using to
machine steel plate into samples - with "tools" they improvised as
they went along - and finding - it works!!!

---------------

I heard a story from someone likely to know that laser eye surgery was
perfected on various tissues of hamsters strapped to a milling machine.

Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> writes:

> On 9/3/2022 12:01 PM, Richard Smith wrote:
>> "Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> "Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:tetr8e$12o2$1@gioia.aioe.org...
>>> ....
>>>
>>> Here's how to weld your boat with your milling machine:
>>>
>>> ...
>>
>> My Doctoral research supervisor described Wayne Thomas (credited
>> inventor of Friction Stir Welding(?)) coming by that workshop and
>> trying out his ideal - using the milling machine I was using to
>> machine steel plate into samples - with "tools" they improvised as
>> they went along - and finding - it works!!!
>
>
> I've seen some friction welding vids (using lathe) on YouTube, but I
> never wanted to put that much heat into my machine. It looks neat,
> but I suspect if you aren't running 5 ton or heavier machine to sink
> the excess it will heat up things that should remain room
> temperature. Maybe not, but it gives me the willies given that all my
> machines came out of my pocket.

This is "general" friction-welding? Heating up the entire area to be
fused by acting on the entire area at once.
Friction Stir Welding is working progressively with a "local" tool
along the joint being made.
The essence of friction stir welding is a plastic zone - a region
where the metal is flowing/shearing. Heat/temperature is only a
secondary effect, and the efficiency of the process keeps that low
(?).

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lyr10r1y0q.fsf@void.com...

This is "general" friction-welding? Heating up the entire area to be
fused by acting on the entire area at once.
Friction Stir Welding is working progressively with a "local" tool
along the joint being made.
The essence of friction stir welding is a plastic zone - a region
where the metal is flowing/shearing. Heat/temperature is only a
secondary effect, and the efficiency of the process keeps that low
(?).

Will it work on 0.5~1.5mm aluminium on a lower power machine?

"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> writes:

> "Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lyr10r1y0q.fsf@void.com...
>
> This is "general" friction-welding? Heating up the entire area to be
> fused by acting on the entire area at once.
> Friction Stir Welding is working progressively with a "local" tool
> along the joint being made.
> The essence of friction stir welding is a plastic zone - a region
> where the metal is flowing/shearing. Heat/temperature is only a
> secondary effect, and the efficiency of the process keeps that low
> (?).

--------------------------------
>
> Will it work on 0.5~1.5mm aluminium on a lower power machine?

I assume so, if you scale the tool to be proportionate to the small
thickness.