Very impressive. This guy 'Mr Karen' has developed something
even more pathetic and useless than government programs!

https://nypost.com/2022/09/25/nyc-activist-takes-on-central-parks-speeding-tour-de-france-cyclists/

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sunday, September 25, 2022 at 2:43:34 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> Very impressive. This guy 'Mr Karen' has developed something
> even more pathetic and useless than government programs!
>
> https://nypost.com/2022/09/25/nyc-activist-takes-on-central-parks-speeding-tour-de-france-cyclists/

Many traffic laws that cyclists are expected to obey are designed for automobiles. It is stupid to expect a cyclist to come to a complete stop when a pedestrian is entering a crosswalk on the other side of the street or to remained stopped or stop AFTER a pedestrian has crossed your section of a crosswalk.

On the other hand too many cyclists are rude and endanger other people in order to retain a high average speed as if that is somehow important. It may be important to them and if so perhaps they should go to open areas where it bothers no one else.

80% of the population of the US is east of the Mississippi. If you want to go really fast race the crits.

On Mon, 26 Sep 2022 08:31:42 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, September 25, 2022 at 2:43:34 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> Very impressive. This guy 'Mr Karen' has developed something
>> even more pathetic and useless than government programs!
>>
>> https://nypost.com/2022/09/25/nyc-activist-takes-on-central-parks-speeding-tour-de-france-cyclists/
>
>Many traffic laws that cyclists are expected to obey are designed for automobiles. It is stupid to expect a cyclist to come to a complete stop when a pedestrian is entering a crosswalk on the other side of the street or to remained stopped or stop AFTER a pedestrian has crossed your section of a crosswalk.
>
>On the other hand too many cyclists are rude and endanger other people in order to retain a high average speed as if that is somehow important. It may be important to them and if so perhaps they should go to open areas where it bothers no one else.
>
>80% of the population of the US is east of the Mississippi. If you want to go really fast race the crits.

And yet again the amazing (stupid) Tommy strikes out.

" an estimated population of 179,948,346 or 58.28% of the total U.S.
population of 331,745,358"

One thing about silly old Tommy, he is on no danger of exceeding his
current record of 3 true statements in 17 years.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Mon, 26 Sep 2022 08:31:42 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>80% of the population of the US is east of the Mississippi.

Wrong. In 1878, the climatic dividing line was the 100th meridian
(-100° longitude). Today, the line has moved eastward and is at the
98th meridian:
<https://www.earthmagazine.org/article/dividing-line-past-present-and-future-100th-meridian/>
The Mississippi River is at approximately the 90th meridian.

Please spend a few minutes verifying your numbers before posting.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Wednesday, September 28, 2022 at 11:04:47 PM UTC-4, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Mon, 26 Sep 2022 08:31:42 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >80% of the population of the US is east of the Mississippi.
> Wrong. In 1878, the climatic dividing line was the 100th meridian
> (-100° longitude). Today, the line has moved eastward and is at the
> 98th meridian:
> <https://www.earthmagazine.org/article/dividing-line-past-present-and-future-100th-meridian/>
> The Mississippi River is at approximately the 90th meridian.
>
> Please spend a few minutes verifying your numbers before posting.

Jeff, you're far too optimistic! Tom will never change.

- Frank Krygowski

On Monday, September 26, 2022 at 11:31:44 AM UTC-4, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, September 25, 2022 at 2:43:34 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > Very impressive. This guy 'Mr Karen' has developed something
> > even more pathetic and useless than government programs!
> >
> > https://nypost.com/2022/09/25/nyc-activist-takes-on-central-parks-speeding-tour-de-france-cyclists/
> Many traffic laws that cyclists are expected to obey are designed for automobiles. It is stupid to expect a cyclist to come to a complete stop when a pedestrian is entering a crosswalk on the other side of the street

I do. It's not that hard. It's called paying attention. I also stop for school busses picking up children on the other side of the street. Maybe you have problems braking at your 13 mph pace, but I don't have an issue stopping at 2o.

> or to remained stopped or stop AFTER a pedestrian has crossed your section of a crosswalk.

That's not the law here.

>
> On the other hand too many cyclists are rude and endanger other people in order to retain a high average speed as if that is somehow important. It may be important to them and if so perhaps they should go to open areas where it bothers no one else.
>
> 80% of the population of the US is east of the Mississippi.

"tom is right" - andrew mccoy

> If you want to go really fast race the crits.

I do...https://www.strava.com/activities/5610925094
https://www.strava.com/activities/5754188955

On 9/30/2022 8:05 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, September 26, 2022 at 11:31:44 AM UTC-4, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Sunday, September 25, 2022 at 2:43:34 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>> Very impressive. This guy 'Mr Karen' has developed something
>>> even more pathetic and useless than government programs!
>>>
>>> https://nypost.com/2022/09/25/nyc-activist-takes-on-central-parks-speeding-tour-de-france-cyclists/
>> Many traffic laws that cyclists are expected to obey are designed for automobiles. It is stupid to expect a cyclist to come to a complete stop when a pedestrian is entering a crosswalk on the other side of the street
>
> I do. It's not that hard. It's called paying attention. I also stop for school busses picking up children on the other side of the street. Maybe you have problems braking at your 13 mph pace, but I don't have an issue stopping at 2o.
>
>> or to remained stopped or stop AFTER a pedestrian has crossed your section of a crosswalk.
>
> That's not the law here.

In California, once the pedestrian goes past you then you can go,
whether in a car or on a bicycle.

If a pedestrian steps off the curb and into the crosswalk on the
opposite side of the street, and you're wanting to turn right, you have
to wait until they are all the way across, even if it's an eight-lane
road with a median. Lately, that's something that the sheriff's deputies
in my city have been enforcing at one intersection
<https://goo.gl/maps/nu7v5VT6YLKL2XBe7>. A lot of drivers break this law
so it's very easy to issue tickets for this infraction.

Personally I think that they should be enforcing the epidemic of cars
running red lights, and that only when a pedestrian has passed the
median on a six to eight lane divided road should they ticket drivers
for turning right in front of the pedestrian.

As to "California Stops," the reality is that while they are not legal,
either for vehicles or pedestrians, many of those stop signs should
really be yield signs, buy yield signs have gone out of fashion. Many
stop signs are put in just to slow traffic, and there are other ways to
do this that don't cause so much unnecessary starting and stopping. But
in the U.S., a lot of drivers really don't like roundabouts. The Costco
in Santa Clara recently replaced a nightmare four-way stop, that snarled
traffic, with a roundabout, and there have been many complaints about it
<https://www.mercurynews.com/2022/09/20/i-saw-people-driving-over-the-roundabout-trying-to-get-out-roadshow/>.

On Friday, September 30, 2022 at 11:47:50 AM UTC-4, sms wrote:
> On 9/30/2022 8:05 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > On Monday, September 26, 2022 at 11:31:44 AM UTC-4, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On Sunday, September 25, 2022 at 2:43:34 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >>> Very impressive. This guy 'Mr Karen' has developed something
> >>> even more pathetic and useless than government programs!
> >>>
> >>> https://nypost.com/2022/09/25/nyc-activist-takes-on-central-parks-speeding-tour-de-france-cyclists/
> >> Many traffic laws that cyclists are expected to obey are designed for automobiles. It is stupid to expect a cyclist to come to a complete stop when a pedestrian is entering a crosswalk on the other side of the street
> >
> > I do. It's not that hard. It's called paying attention. I also stop for school busses picking up children on the other side of the street. Maybe you have problems braking at your 13 mph pace, but I don't have an issue stopping at 2o.
> >
> >> or to remained stopped or stop AFTER a pedestrian has crossed your section of a crosswalk.
> >
> > That's not the law here.
> In California, once the pedestrian goes past you then you can go,
> whether in a car or on a bicycle.
>
> If a pedestrian steps off the curb and into the crosswalk on the
> opposite side of the street, and you're wanting to turn right, you have
> to wait until they are all the way across, even if it's an eight-lane
> road with a median. Lately, that's something that the sheriff's deputies
> in my city have been enforcing at one intersection
> <https://goo.gl/maps/nu7v5VT6YLKL2XBe7>. A lot of drivers break this law
> so it's very easy to issue tickets for this infraction.
>
> Personally I think that they should be enforcing the epidemic of cars
> running red lights, and that only when a pedestrian has passed the
> median on a six to eight lane divided road should they ticket drivers
> for turning right in front of the pedestrian.
>
> As to "California Stops," the reality is that while they are not legal,
> either for vehicles or pedestrians, many of those stop signs should
> really be yield signs, buy yield signs have gone out of fashion. Many
> stop signs are put in just to slow traffic, and there are other ways to
> do this that don't cause so much unnecessary starting and stopping. But
> in the U.S., a lot of drivers really don't like roundabouts. The Costco
> in Santa Clara recently replaced a nightmare four-way stop, that snarled
> traffic, with a roundabout, and there have been many complaints about it
> <https://www.mercurynews.com/2022/09/20/i-saw-people-driving-over-the-roundabout-trying-to-get-out-roadshow/>.
Give it time:
https://www.iihs.org/topics/roundabouts
" - In three communities where single-lane roundabouts replaced stop sign-controlled intersections, 31 percent of drivers supported the roundabouts before construction, compared with 63 percent shortly after (Retting et al., 2002).
- In three other communities where a one- or two-lane roundabout replaced stop signs or traffic signals, 36 percent of drivers supported the roundabouts before construction compared with 50 percent shortly after (Retting et al., 2006).
- Follow-up surveys conducted in these six communities after roundabouts had been in place for more than one year found the level of public support increased to about 70 percent on average (Retting et al., 2007).
- When two intersections near Bellingham, Washington, were converted to two-lane roundabouts, support for the roundabouts went from 34 percent before construction to 51 percent six months after and 70 percent more than one year after (Hu et al., 2014)."

On 10/4/2022 8:17 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, September 30, 2022 at 11:47:50 AM UTC-4, sms wrote:
>> But
>> in the U.S., a lot of drivers really don't like roundabouts. The Costco
>> in Santa Clara recently replaced a nightmare four-way stop, that snarled
>> traffic, with a roundabout, and there have been many complaints about it
>> <https://www.mercurynews.com/2022/09/20/i-saw-people-driving-over-the-roundabout-trying-to-get-out-roadshow/>.
>
> Give it time:
> https://www.iihs.org/topics/roundabouts
> " - In three communities where single-lane roundabouts replaced stop sign-controlled intersections, 31 percent of drivers supported the roundabouts before construction, compared with 63 percent shortly after (Retting et al., 2002).
> - In three other communities where a one- or two-lane roundabout replaced stop signs or traffic signals, 36 percent of drivers supported the roundabouts before construction compared with 50 percent shortly after (Retting et al., 2006).
> - Follow-up surveys conducted in these six communities after roundabouts had been in place for more than one year found the level of public support increased to about 70 percent on average (Retting et al., 2007).
> - When two intersections near Bellingham, Washington, were converted to two-lane roundabouts, support for the roundabouts went from 34 percent before construction to 51 percent six months after and 70 percent more than one year after (Hu et al., 2014)."

+1. One was installed on my former bike commute route. It replace a
traffic light that had sometimes given me trouble (I had to call to get
the loop detector sensitivity raised) and that often caused backups of
20 or more cars.

Some people were very skeptical ahead of time, some people were slightly
confused afterward. But traffic flow has improved tremendously.

There are some minor downsides. I think it's made it a bit harder for
the few pedestrians at that location. And when I'm on a different route,
it's made my left turn harder at an intersection about a quarter mile
away. I used to make that turn during the break between traffic
"platoons" generated by the traffic light. Now traffic is more
continuous, so it takes more patience to wait for a break I can use.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Tue, 4 Oct 2022 05:17:58 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
<funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Give it time:
>https://www.iihs.org/topics/roundabouts
>" - In three communities where single-lane roundabouts replaced stop sign-controlled intersections, 31 percent of drivers supported the roundabouts before construction, compared with 63 percent shortly after (Retting et al., 2002).
> - In three other communities where a one- or two-lane roundabout replaced stop signs or traffic signals, 36 percent of drivers supported the roundabouts before construction compared with 50 percent shortly after (Retting et al., 2006).
> - Follow-up surveys conducted in these six communities after roundabouts had been in place for more than one year found the level of public support increased to about 70 percent on average (Retting et al., 2007).
> - When two intersections near Bellingham, Washington, were converted to two-lane roundabouts, support for the roundabouts went from 34 percent before construction to 51 percent six months after and 70 percent more than one year after (Hu et al., 2014)."

Ummm... My guess(tm) is that the local drivers that hated the
roundabout decided to use other routes after they were built. A
survey of the remaining riders would predictably have a higher
percentage of favorable opinions.

The dates on the 4 surveys mentioned were 2002, 2006, 2007, and 2014.
Besides being rather old surveys, they also have a rather wide spread
in years, which suggest that there may have been some cherry picking
of favorable surveys.

All 4 surveys require filling out a form in order to obtain a copy of
the report. No thanks.

The 2014 report is interesting in that last line of the report
suggests that drivers over 70 might be responsible for higher crash
rates by using alternate routes:
<https://www.iihs.org/topics/bibliography/ref/2033>
"However, it seemed the greater complexity of double-lane roundabouts
may present challenges as some confusion persisted one year after
construction, there was evidence that some older drivers may have
taken an alternative route to avoid them, and property damage-only
crash rates increased."

Partial disclosure: I'm over 70 and I hate roundabouts and similar
obstacle courses.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Tuesday, October 4, 2022 at 1:33:16 p.m. UTC-4, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tue, 4 Oct 2022 05:17:58 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
> <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Give it time:
> >https://www.iihs.org/topics/roundabouts
> >" - In three communities where single-lane roundabouts replaced stop sign-controlled intersections, 31 percent of drivers supported the roundabouts before construction, compared with 63 percent shortly after (Retting et al.., 2002).
> > - In three other communities where a one- or two-lane roundabout replaced stop signs or traffic signals, 36 percent of drivers supported the roundabouts before construction compared with 50 percent shortly after (Retting et al., 2006).
> > - Follow-up surveys conducted in these six communities after roundabouts had been in place for more than one year found the level of public support increased to about 70 percent on average (Retting et al., 2007).
> > - When two intersections near Bellingham, Washington, were converted to two-lane roundabouts, support for the roundabouts went from 34 percent before construction to 51 percent six months after and 70 percent more than one year after (Hu et al., 2014)."
> Ummm... My guess(tm) is that the local drivers that hated the
> roundabout decided to use other routes after they were built. A
> survey of the remaining riders would predictably have a higher
> percentage of favorable opinions.
>
> The dates on the 4 surveys mentioned were 2002, 2006, 2007, and 2014.
> Besides being rather old surveys, they also have a rather wide spread
> in years, which suggest that there may have been some cherry picking
> of favorable surveys.
>
> All 4 surveys require filling out a form in order to obtain a copy of
> the report. No thanks.
>
> The 2014 report is interesting in that last line of the report
> suggests that drivers over 70 might be responsible for higher crash
> rates by using alternate routes:
> <https://www.iihs.org/topics/bibliography/ref/2033>
> "However, it seemed the greater complexity of double-lane roundabouts
> may present challenges as some confusion persisted one year after
> construction, there was evidence that some older drivers may have
> taken an alternative route to avoid them, and property damage-only
> crash rates increased."
>
> Partial disclosure: I'm over 70 and I hate roundabouts and similar
> obstacle courses.
> --
> Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
> PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
> Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

I find a lot of the roundabouts hereabouts are extremely dangerous for bicyclists or pedestrians. Pedestrian crossings are located exactly where the auto traffic is speeding up to exit the roundabout. Those crossing places are a fantastic place to get the rundown feeling and unfortunately Geritol won't get rid of that rundown feeling.

Roundabouts are yet another thing built for the Almighty Car.

Cheers

On 2022-10-04, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 4 Oct 2022 05:17:58 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
><funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Give it time:
>>https://www.iihs.org/topics/roundabouts
>>" - In three communities where single-lane roundabouts replaced stop sign-controlled intersections, 31 percent of drivers supported the roundabouts before construction, compared with 63 percent shortly after (Retting et al., 2002).
>> - In three other communities where a one- or two-lane roundabout replaced stop signs or traffic signals, 36 percent of drivers supported the roundabouts before construction compared with 50 percent shortly after (Retting et al., 2006).
>> - Follow-up surveys conducted in these six communities after roundabouts had been in place for more than one year found the level of public support increased to about 70 percent on average (Retting et al., 2007).
>> - When two intersections near Bellingham, Washington, were converted to two-lane roundabouts, support for the roundabouts went from 34 percent before construction to 51 percent six months after and 70 percent more than one year after (Hu et al., 2014)."
>
> Ummm... My guess(tm) is that the local drivers that hated the
> roundabout decided to use other routes after they were built. A
> survey of the remaining riders would predictably have a higher
> percentage of favorable opinions.
>
> The dates on the 4 surveys mentioned were 2002, 2006, 2007, and 2014.
> Besides being rather old surveys, they also have a rather wide spread
> in years, which suggest that there may have been some cherry picking
> of favorable surveys.
>
> All 4 surveys require filling out a form in order to obtain a copy of
> the report. No thanks.
>
> The 2014 report is interesting in that last line of the report
> suggests that drivers over 70 might be responsible for higher crash
> rates by using alternate routes:
><https://www.iihs.org/topics/bibliography/ref/2033>
> "However, it seemed the greater complexity of double-lane roundabouts
> may present challenges as some confusion persisted one year after
> construction, there was evidence that some older drivers may have
> taken an alternative route to avoid them, and property damage-only
> crash rates increased."
>
> Partial disclosure: I'm over 70 and I hate roundabouts and similar
> obstacle courses.
>

When my mom was in an assisted living home in Napa I would go there via
bicycle and had to negotiate two round-a-bouts along the way which also
happened to have the least traffic and bike lanes along the rest of the
route.

I found the single lane round-a-bout (is "roundabout" the proper spelling?)
to be simple but the two-lane one was a different animal and invariably
involved stopping for differing long times and planning my assault on
crossing each arterial (even just one).

I can only imagine the three-lane European ones...it must be gruesome.

Maybe Roger M. or Andre J. can clue us in on how easy or hard it is.

I use my electric assist bike when I'm in Napa so I guess I lose points for
that.

I find you put in just as much effort as a 'normal' bike, you just go
faster. I built it from a kit in anticipation of $5/gallon gas and the wife
being the one w/ the car back when I was working.

we're there w/ $5+ gas, aren't we?

pH in Aptos

pH <wNOSPAMp@gmail.org> writes:

> On 2022-10-04, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, 4 Oct 2022 05:17:58 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
>><funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Give it time:
>>>https://www.iihs.org/topics/roundabouts
>>>" - In three communities where single-lane roundabouts replaced stop sign-controlled intersections, 31 percent of drivers supported the roundabouts before construction, compared with 63 percent shortly after (Retting et al., 2002).
>>> - In three other communities where a one- or two-lane roundabout replaced stop signs or traffic signals, 36 percent of drivers supported the roundabouts before construction compared with 50 percent shortly after (Retting et al., 2006).
>>> - Follow-up surveys conducted in these six communities after roundabouts had been in place for more than one year found the level of public support increased to about 70 percent on average (Retting et al., 2007).
>>> - When two intersections near Bellingham, Washington, were converted to two-lane roundabouts, support for the roundabouts went from 34 percent before construction to 51 percent six months after and 70 percent more than one year after (Hu et al., 2014)."
>>
>> Ummm... My guess(tm) is that the local drivers that hated the
>> roundabout decided to use other routes after they were built. A
>> survey of the remaining riders would predictably have a higher
>> percentage of favorable opinions.
>>
>> The dates on the 4 surveys mentioned were 2002, 2006, 2007, and 2014.
>> Besides being rather old surveys, they also have a rather wide spread
>> in years, which suggest that there may have been some cherry picking
>> of favorable surveys.
>>
>> All 4 surveys require filling out a form in order to obtain a copy of
>> the report. No thanks.
>>
>> The 2014 report is interesting in that last line of the report
>> suggests that drivers over 70 might be responsible for higher crash
>> rates by using alternate routes:
>><https://www.iihs.org/topics/bibliography/ref/2033>
>> "However, it seemed the greater complexity of double-lane roundabouts
>> may present challenges as some confusion persisted one year after
>> construction, there was evidence that some older drivers may have
>> taken an alternative route to avoid them, and property damage-only
>> crash rates increased."
>>
>> Partial disclosure: I'm over 70 and I hate roundabouts and similar
>> obstacle courses.
>>
>
> When my mom was in an assisted living home in Napa I would go there via
> bicycle and had to negotiate two round-a-bouts along the way which also
> happened to have the least traffic and bike lanes along the rest of the
> route.
>
> I found the single lane round-a-bout (is "roundabout" the proper spelling?)
> to be simple but the two-lane one was a different animal and invariably
> involved stopping for differing long times and planning my assault on
> crossing each arterial (even just one).

I agree -- I don't mind the single lane ones on a bike, even if they are
fairly large. They are difficult for pedestrians if there is any
traffic to speak of.

On the other hand there is a two lane rotary near me (in Concord MA, on
route 2) that I will not ride for love nor money. Route 2 is an
arterial that really wants to be a limited access highway, and a few
minor streets cross it at the rotary. Cars enter two abreast, and the
guy on the left confidently expects to stay in his lane and exit in it.
Too bad for anyone on his right that might want to stay in the rotary.
One of my former co-workers had a car crash in just that way, and the
cop told him it was his fault, although I'm not sure how a person
figures that out.

> I can only imagine the three-lane European ones...it must be gruesome.
>
> Maybe Roger M. or Andre J. can clue us in on how easy or hard it is.
>
> I use my electric assist bike when I'm in Napa so I guess I lose points for
> that.
>
> I find you put in just as much effort as a 'normal' bike, you just go
> faster. I built it from a kit in anticipation of $5/gallon gas and the wife
> being the one w/ the car back when I was working.
>
> we're there w/ $5+ gas, aren't we?
>
> pH in Aptos

--

On 10/4/2022 3:47 PM, pH wrote:
> On 2022-10-04, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, 4 Oct 2022 05:17:58 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
>> <funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Give it time:
>>> https://www.iihs.org/topics/roundabouts
>>> " - In three communities where single-lane roundabouts replaced stop sign-controlled intersections, 31 percent of drivers supported the roundabouts before construction, compared with 63 percent shortly after (Retting et al., 2002).
>>> - In three other communities where a one- or two-lane roundabout replaced stop signs or traffic signals, 36 percent of drivers supported the roundabouts before construction compared with 50 percent shortly after (Retting et al., 2006).
>>> - Follow-up surveys conducted in these six communities after roundabouts had been in place for more than one year found the level of public support increased to about 70 percent on average (Retting et al., 2007).
>>> - When two intersections near Bellingham, Washington, were converted to two-lane roundabouts, support for the roundabouts went from 34 percent before construction to 51 percent six months after and 70 percent more than one year after (Hu et al., 2014)."
>>
>> Ummm... My guess(tm) is that the local drivers that hated the
>> roundabout decided to use other routes after they were built. A
>> survey of the remaining riders would predictably have a higher
>> percentage of favorable opinions.
>>
>> The dates on the 4 surveys mentioned were 2002, 2006, 2007, and 2014.
>> Besides being rather old surveys, they also have a rather wide spread
>> in years, which suggest that there may have been some cherry picking
>> of favorable surveys.
>>
>> All 4 surveys require filling out a form in order to obtain a copy of
>> the report. No thanks.
>>
>> The 2014 report is interesting in that last line of the report
>> suggests that drivers over 70 might be responsible for higher crash
>> rates by using alternate routes:
>> <https://www.iihs.org/topics/bibliography/ref/2033>
>> "However, it seemed the greater complexity of double-lane roundabouts
>> may present challenges as some confusion persisted one year after
>> construction, there was evidence that some older drivers may have
>> taken an alternative route to avoid them, and property damage-only
>> crash rates increased."
>>
>> Partial disclosure: I'm over 70 and I hate roundabouts and similar
>> obstacle courses.
>>
>
> When my mom was in an assisted living home in Napa I would go there via
> bicycle and had to negotiate two round-a-bouts along the way which also
> happened to have the least traffic and bike lanes along the rest of the
> route.
>
> I found the single lane round-a-bout (is "roundabout" the proper spelling?)
> to be simple but the two-lane one was a different animal and invariably
> involved stopping for differing long times and planning my assault on
> crossing each arterial (even just one).
>
> I can only imagine the three-lane European ones...it must be gruesome.
>
> Maybe Roger M. or Andre J. can clue us in on how easy or hard it is.
>
> I use my electric assist bike when I'm in Napa so I guess I lose points for
> that.
>
> I find you put in just as much effort as a 'normal' bike, you just go
> faster. I built it from a kit in anticipation of $5/gallon gas and the wife
> being the one w/ the car back when I was working.
>
> we're there w/ $5+ gas, aren't we?
>
> pH in Aptos
>

One proven solution to antipersonnel barricades is artillery.

This may be applicable to loopy-loop traffic obstacles and
would find support from me.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Tuesday, October 4, 2022 at 5:27:21 PM UTC-4, Radey Shouman wrote:
> pH <wNOS...@gmail.org> writes:
>
> > On 2022-10-04, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
> >> On Tue, 4 Oct 2022 05:17:58 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
> >><funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>>Give it time:
> >>>https://www.iihs.org/topics/roundabouts
> >>>" - In three communities where single-lane roundabouts replaced stop sign-controlled intersections, 31 percent of drivers supported the roundabouts before construction, compared with 63 percent shortly after (Retting et al., 2002).
> >>> - In three other communities where a one- or two-lane roundabout replaced stop signs or traffic signals, 36 percent of drivers supported the roundabouts before construction compared with 50 percent shortly after (Retting et al., 2006).
> >>> - Follow-up surveys conducted in these six communities after roundabouts had been in place for more than one year found the level of public support increased to about 70 percent on average (Retting et al., 2007).
> >>> - When two intersections near Bellingham, Washington, were converted to two-lane roundabouts, support for the roundabouts went from 34 percent before construction to 51 percent six months after and 70 percent more than one year after (Hu et al., 2014)."
> >>
> >> Ummm... My guess(tm) is that the local drivers that hated the
> >> roundabout decided to use other routes after they were built. A
> >> survey of the remaining riders would predictably have a higher
> >> percentage of favorable opinions.
> >>
> >> The dates on the 4 surveys mentioned were 2002, 2006, 2007, and 2014.
> >> Besides being rather old surveys, they also have a rather wide spread
> >> in years, which suggest that there may have been some cherry picking
> >> of favorable surveys.
> >>
> >> All 4 surveys require filling out a form in order to obtain a copy of
> >> the report. No thanks.
> >>
> >> The 2014 report is interesting in that last line of the report
> >> suggests that drivers over 70 might be responsible for higher crash
> >> rates by using alternate routes:
> >><https://www.iihs.org/topics/bibliography/ref/2033>
> >> "However, it seemed the greater complexity of double-lane roundabouts
> >> may present challenges as some confusion persisted one year after
> >> construction, there was evidence that some older drivers may have
> >> taken an alternative route to avoid them, and property damage-only
> >> crash rates increased."
> >>
> >> Partial disclosure: I'm over 70 and I hate roundabouts and similar
> >> obstacle courses.
> >>
> >
> > When my mom was in an assisted living home in Napa I would go there via
> > bicycle and had to negotiate two round-a-bouts along the way which also
> > happened to have the least traffic and bike lanes along the rest of the
> > route.
> >
> > I found the single lane round-a-bout (is "roundabout" the proper spelling?)
> > to be simple but the two-lane one was a different animal and invariably
> > involved stopping for differing long times and planning my assault on
> > crossing each arterial (even just one).
> I agree -- I don't mind the single lane ones on a bike, even if they are
> fairly large. They are difficult for pedestrians if there is any
> traffic to speak of.
>
> On the other hand there is a two lane rotary near me (in Concord MA, on
> route 2) that I will not ride for love nor money. Route 2 is an
> arterial that really wants to be a limited access highway, and a few
> minor streets cross it at the rotary. Cars enter two abreast, and the
> guy on the left confidently expects to stay in his lane and exit in it.

I'm well-acquainted with that one as well, and completely agree with you. I actually think it's pretty ridiculous that it isn't a limited access highway at that point. I suppose during rush hour it would be navigable since traffic is barely moving at that point, but I know I've taken that rotary at 50 in a sports car when traffic was light.

> Too bad for anyone on his right that might want to stay in the rotary.
> One of my former co-workers had a car crash in just that way, and the
> cop told him it was his fault, although I'm not sure how a person
> figures that out.
> > I can only imagine the three-lane European ones...it must be gruesome.
> >
> > Maybe Roger M. or Andre J. can clue us in on how easy or hard it is.
> >
> > I use my electric assist bike when I'm in Napa so I guess I lose points for
> > that.
> >
> > I find you put in just as much effort as a 'normal' bike, you just go
> > faster. I built it from a kit in anticipation of $5/gallon gas and the wife
> > being the one w/ the car back when I was working.
> >
> > we're there w/ $5+ gas, aren't we?
> >
> > pH in Aptos
> --

On 10/4/2022 4:47 PM, pH wrote:
> On 2022-10-04, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, 4 Oct 2022 05:17:58 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
>> <funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Give it time:
>>> https://www.iihs.org/topics/roundabouts
>>> " - In three communities where single-lane roundabouts replaced stop sign-controlled intersections, 31 percent of drivers supported the roundabouts before construction, compared with 63 percent shortly after (Retting et al., 2002).
>>> - In three other communities where a one- or two-lane roundabout replaced stop signs or traffic signals, 36 percent of drivers supported the roundabouts before construction compared with 50 percent shortly after (Retting et al., 2006).
>>> - Follow-up surveys conducted in these six communities after roundabouts had been in place for more than one year found the level of public support increased to about 70 percent on average (Retting et al., 2007).
>>> - When two intersections near Bellingham, Washington, were converted to two-lane roundabouts, support for the roundabouts went from 34 percent before construction to 51 percent six months after and 70 percent more than one year after (Hu et al., 2014)."
>>
>> Ummm... My guess(tm) is that the local drivers that hated the
>> roundabout decided to use other routes after they were built. A
>> survey of the remaining riders would predictably have a higher
>> percentage of favorable opinions.
>>
>> The dates on the 4 surveys mentioned were 2002, 2006, 2007, and 2014.
>> Besides being rather old surveys, they also have a rather wide spread
>> in years, which suggest that there may have been some cherry picking
>> of favorable surveys.
>>
>> All 4 surveys require filling out a form in order to obtain a copy of
>> the report. No thanks.
>>
>> The 2014 report is interesting in that last line of the report
>> suggests that drivers over 70 might be responsible for higher crash
>> rates by using alternate routes:
>> <https://www.iihs.org/topics/bibliography/ref/2033>
>> "However, it seemed the greater complexity of double-lane roundabouts
>> may present challenges as some confusion persisted one year after
>> construction, there was evidence that some older drivers may have
>> taken an alternative route to avoid them, and property damage-only
>> crash rates increased."
>>
>> Partial disclosure: I'm over 70 and I hate roundabouts and similar
>> obstacle courses.
>>
>
> When my mom was in an assisted living home in Napa I would go there via
> bicycle and had to negotiate two round-a-bouts along the way which also
> happened to have the least traffic and bike lanes along the rest of the
> route.
>
> I found the single lane round-a-bout (is "roundabout" the proper spelling?)
> to be simple but the two-lane one was a different animal and invariably
> involved stopping for differing long times and planning my assault on
> crossing each arterial (even just one).
>
> I can only imagine the three-lane European ones...it must be gruesome.
> pH in Aptos

I've ridden quite a few roundabouts and driven even more in France. I
had no problems either biking or driving them, although I hated to see
bike lanes painted in roundabouts in Troyes. Those turn a single lane
roundabout into a multi lane roundabout, and I don't like those. The
biggest hazard is a right hook by an exiting motorist, and bike lanes
increase the odds of right hooks.

The most extreme roundabout I recall was the one surrounding the Arc de
Triomphe in Paris. You can't count the lanes, because there aren't any -
it's more like a huge circular plaza with everyone negotiating
constantly. If the were to mark lanes, there would probably be ten of them.

I didn't ride that roundabout on the bike, although we rode many other
places in Paris (both on our bikes and on their "share" bikes). But I
saw other people riding it, apparently without problems.
https://goo.gl/maps/2fbzajMyL8Cx3kfm8

--
- Frank Krygowski

One roundabout in Wuerzburg Germany scared me. 3 lanes plus bikes, and bikes had right of way. I did not want to get involved with Polizei and knew I'd be wrong no matter what.

I recently drove in Minneapolis and was surprised by the number of new roundabouts. I was told that since they've been in, accidents are down 66% and fatalities 86% at those intersections.

On 10/7/2022 5:38 PM, Tim R wrote:
> One roundabout in Wuerzburg Germany scared me. 3 lanes plus bikes, and bikes had right of way. I did not want to get involved with Polizei and knew I'd be wrong no matter what.
>
> I recently drove in Minneapolis and was surprised by the number of new roundabouts. I was told that since they've been in, accidents are down 66% and fatalities 86% at those intersections.
>

I not only go out of my way to avoid them by bicycle but
also with a car. I suspect I am not alone in that which may
contribute to fewer crashes at those intersections.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Fri, 07 Oct 2022 18:59:30 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 10/7/2022 5:38 PM, Tim R wrote:
>> One roundabout in Wuerzburg Germany scared me. 3 lanes plus bikes, and bikes had right of way. I did not want to get involved with Polizei and knew I'd be wrong no matter what.
>>
>> I recently drove in Minneapolis and was surprised by the number of new roundabouts. I was told that since they've been in, accidents are down 66% and fatalities 86% at those intersections.
>>
>
>I not only go out of my way to avoid them by bicycle but
>also with a car. I suspect I am not alone in that which may
>contribute to fewer crashes at those intersections.

I was surprised by the number of roundabouts in the Madison area after
going there last month.

AMuzi wrote:
> On 10/7/2022 5:38 PM, Tim R wrote:
>> One roundabout in Wuerzburg Germany scared me. 3 lanes plus bikes,
>> and bikes had right of way. I did not want to get involved with
>> Polizei and knew I'd be wrong no matter what.

It's a matter of priorites. The latest badly crushed cyclist there
seems to have happened in 2017.
<https://www.wuerzburgerleben.de/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/01/BerlinerRing_01-1067x800.jpg>
The unoccupied inner lane looks safest. The straighter my line, the
less nauseating! :-)

>> I recently drove in Minneapolis and was surprised by the number of
>> new roundabouts. I was told that since they've been in, accidents
>> are down 66% and fatalities 86% at those intersections.
> > I not only go out of my way to avoid them by bicycle but also with a
> car. I suspect I am not alone in that which may contribute to fewer
> crashes at those intersections.

Just take the bus! Oh, wait -- ten injured, tree killed, this Thursday!
https://www.wuerzburgerleben.de/2022/10/06/verkehrsunfall-mit-linienbus-<am-berliner-ring/>
Bus driver experienced unspecified medical problems ... no way this
might have been Pfizertoxin-related, but *must* be due to climate change.

On 10/8/2022 11:33 AM, Sepp Ruf wrote:
> AMuzi wrote:
>> On 10/7/2022 5:38 PM, Tim R wrote:
>>> One roundabout in Wuerzburg Germany scared me. 3 lanes
>>> plus bikes,
>>> and bikes had right of way. I did not want to get
>>> involved with
>>> Polizei and knew I'd be wrong no matter what.
>
> It's a matter of priorites. The latest badly crushed
> cyclist there seems to have happened in 2017.
> <https://www.wuerzburgerleben.de/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/01/BerlinerRing_01-1067x800.jpg>
>
> The unoccupied inner lane looks safest. The straighter my
> line, the less nauseating! :-)
>
>>> I recently drove in Minneapolis and was surprised by the
>>> number of
>>> new roundabouts. I was told that since they've been in,
>>> accidents
>>> are down 66% and fatalities 86% at those intersections.
>> > I not only go out of my way to avoid them by bicycle but
>> also with a
>> car. I suspect I am not alone in that which may contribute
>> to fewer
>> crashes at those intersections.
>
> Just take the bus! Oh, wait -- ten injured, tree killed,
> this Thursday!
> https://www.wuerzburgerleben.de/2022/10/06/verkehrsunfall-mit-linienbus-<am-berliner-ring/>
>
> Bus driver experienced unspecified medical problems ... no
> way this might have been Pfizertoxin-related, but *must* be
> due to climate change.

A nice analysis!

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Friday, October 7, 2022 at 3:38:07 PM UTC-7, timoth...@gmail.com wrote:
> One roundabout in Wuerzburg Germany scared me. 3 lanes plus bikes, and bikes had right of way. I did not want to get involved with Polizei and knew I'd be wrong no matter what.
>
> I recently drove in Minneapolis and was surprised by the number of new roundabouts. I was told that since they've been in, accidents are down 66% and fatalities 86% at those intersections.

Roundabouts replace traffic lights. People often run traffic lights but they can't run a roundabout. If they are designed properly the turns are sharp enough to force traffic to slow to safe speeds. But often car drivers complain about proper roundabouts so they make them larger and faster. But any place that has properly designed roundabouts will always have lower accidents and injuries.

On Saturday, October 8, 2022 at 9:33:10 AM UTC-7, Sepp Ruf wrote:
> AMuzi wrote:
> > On 10/7/2022 5:38 PM, Tim R wrote:
> >> One roundabout in Wuerzburg Germany scared me. 3 lanes plus bikes,
> >> and bikes had right of way. I did not want to get involved with
> >> Polizei and knew I'd be wrong no matter what.
> It's a matter of priorites. The latest badly crushed cyclist there
> seems to have happened in 2017.
> <https://www.wuerzburgerleben.de/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/01/BerlinerRing_01-1067x800.jpg>
> The unoccupied inner lane looks safest. The straighter my line, the
> less nauseating! :-)
> >> I recently drove in Minneapolis and was surprised by the number of
> >> new roundabouts. I was told that since they've been in, accidents
> >> are down 66% and fatalities 86% at those intersections.
> > > I not only go out of my way to avoid them by bicycle but also with a
> > car. I suspect I am not alone in that which may contribute to fewer
> > crashes at those intersections.
> Just take the bus! Oh, wait -- ten injured, tree killed, this Thursday!
> https://www.wuerzburgerleben.de/2022/10/06/verkehrsunfall-mit-linienbus-<am-berliner-ring/>
> Bus driver experienced unspecified medical problems ... no way this
> might have been Pfizertoxin-related, but *must* be due to climate change.

These covid-19 vaccines have been huge failures. The only people that like them are the investors who have made three fortunes off of them. That is about to end.
https://fortune.com/well/2022/10/03/new-covid-drug-antiviral-turns-virus-against-itself-coronavirus-prevent-spread-nmt5-scripps-paxlovid/

Note that this pill isn't yet FDA certified even though both components of this drug are used and both certified. Questions have to be put to the FDA pretty soon.

In <ae932353-48c5-4c4d-88aa-9eb999461a25n@googlegroups.com> Tom Kunich <cyclintom@gmail.com> writes:

[snip]
>These covid-19 vaccines have been huge failures. The only people that
>like them are the investors who have made three fortunes off of them.
>That is about to end.

Hey, deathcultist. Stop with these bumdass half measures. Show
your fellow crazies "you mean business".

I'll cheerfully spot you the bus fare to the Koresh compound
in Waco, TX. Or to Applewhite's facility.

It's been decades since they've had any new recruits join
them. They'd be elated to see you.

Follow your Destiny. Don't be a pathetic coward.

--
_____________________________________________________
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
dannyb@panix.com
[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]

On Saturday, October 8, 2022 at 4:37:43 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, October 7, 2022 at 3:38:07 PM UTC-7, timoth...@gmail.com wrote:
> > One roundabout in Wuerzburg Germany scared me. 3 lanes plus bikes, and bikes had right of way. I did not want to get involved with Polizei and knew I'd be wrong no matter what.
> >
> > I recently drove in Minneapolis and was surprised by the number of new roundabouts. I was told that since they've been in, accidents are down 66% and fatalities 86% at those intersections.
> Roundabouts replace traffic lights. People often run traffic lights but they can't run a roundabout. If they are designed properly the turns are sharp enough to force traffic to slow to safe speeds. But often car drivers complain about proper roundabouts so they make them larger and faster. But any place that has properly designed roundabouts will always have lower accidents and injuries.

Not for a lack of trying to go straight thru at high speed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQw9HcvIo_o