Tom Kunich <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 28, 2022 at 11:02:37 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 9/28/2022 11:19 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, September 28, 2022 at 5:59:32 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 9/27/2022 10:47 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>> On Tuesday, September 27, 2022 at 9:32:35 PM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>> On 9/27/2022 8:18 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Andrew, you're an expert at mining the lowest tail of a
>>>>>>> normal curve.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To paraphrase one of your frequent statements: It's a big
>>>>>>> world. There's at least one of every kind of opinion.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I agree and that's my point exactly.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We cannot separate science from policy now, as both areas
>>>>>> are filled with dissent, counterpoints and stubborn facts.
>>>>>
>>>>> Your "now" sounds like you think there was a time when science was unanimous.
>>>>> But there never was such a time. While evidence pointed to the existence
>>>>> of bacteria and viruses, there were still "scientists" who believed in things like
>>>>> curses, miasma, or "bad air" as causes of disease.
>>>>>
>>>>>> To administratively decree any particular 'scientific'
>>>>>> analysis as 'truth' and promote it over reasonably credible
>>>>>> dissent serves no one well in the end.
>>>>>
>>>>> What's "reasonably credible" depends VERY heavily on who is doing the reasoning.
>>>>> There are people who believe in the curative power of flowers. (See "Bach Flower
>>>>> Remedies.") Others believe in the healing power of crystals. And of course, we now
>>>>> "know" that CBD oil cures damn near everything. Should insurance companies
>>>>> and governments really throw money at those beliefs? Personally, I don't think so.
>>>>>
>>>>> Rational policy decisions almost always depend on the consensus of _not_ just
>>>>> any Tom, Dick and Harry (or whoever). Instead, it makes sense to pay attention
>>>>> to consensus among people who have recognized credentials and expertise.
>>>>>
>>>>>> To stymie, stifle,
>>>>>> ban and persecute dissent is worse and ought to offend even
>>>>>> those who have no particular opinion on the issue at hand.
>>>>>
>>>>> Science, and consequently science based policy decisions, _must_ ignore
>>>>> outlier opinions. It's obviously impossible to base policy on every weird opinion that
>>>>> gets generated by every weird mind.
>>>>>
>>>>> I haven't heard about Bach Flower Remedies for Covid, but I bet they've been proposed.
>>>>> You may disagree, but I don't think we should promote or fund those proposals.
>>>>>
>>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>>>
>>>> Yesterday's 22 second video "because Science! "
>>>>
>>>> https://710wor.iheart.com/featured/mark-simone/content/2022-09-27-watch-joe-biden-give-the-weirdest-hurricane-advice-ever/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> A shot which doesn't prevent infection nor reduce contagion
>>>> is now called a 'vaccine'. I rest my case.
>>>
>>> Since no doubt the stupid six are going to deny everything EVEN the CDC
>>> admits that the Vaccines are killing people
>>> https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/myocarditis.html?s_cid537:%2Bmyocarditis%20%2Bcovid%20%2Bvaccine:sem.b:p:RG:GM:gen:PTN:FY21
>>>
>>>
>>> I especially like the part that if you die as a result of being
>>> vaccinated you should report it to VAERS.
>>>
>> Or else... what?
>
> Now isn't that exactly the question. The stupid six pretend that the
> vaccines actually work when by now the entire world knows that they do
> nothing. Denmark, Sweden and Finland had absolutely NO difference in the
> per capita incidence of covid-19 despite Denmark making it a privately
> paid for vaccination meaning that no one got it.

Denmark vaccines rate is higher mildly than USA don’t believe stuff written
by folks like Toby young and then pushed on ie conspiracy stuff.

The Scandinavia countries where and remain mid pack, even Swedish light
touch early on didn’t seem to hurt too badly though did hurt it’s
vulnerable population.
>
> The vaccines were no such thing, they didn't prevent the disease, they
> didn't reduce the symptoms and they didn't prevent transmission of the
> disease. They did cause countless deaths for reasons like heart swelling
> to VAIDS. I can't believe that VAIDS would ever become a major problem
> but time will tell. Though if there is one group that could really do to
> be silenced by their own false beliefs it is the stupid six.
>
> To my mind, the vaccination of 6 year old's should be considered a
> criminal act and the vaccine manufacturers held to account.
>
Roger Merriman

On 9/28/2022 2:04 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 9/28/2022 2:00 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 9/28/2022 10:55 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 9/28/2022 9:55 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>
>>>> But all of the studies are showing that [the Covid
>>>> vaccine] DOES cause a high percentage of Myocarditis and
>>>> Pericarditis and it increases the possibility of Alzheimer
>>>> dementia by 60%.
>>>
>>> Bullshit.
>>>
>>> If you have credible citations, post them.
>>>
>>
>> They're well reported with increasing frequency. This
>> specialist MD was interviewed in my paper yesterday:
>>
>> https://gcsmaui.org/news/update-on-myocarditis-by-pediatric-cardiologist-kirk-milhoan-md-phd-faap-facc/
>>
>
> I'll skip listening to a 45 minute video, if you don't mind.
> The synopsis doesn't seem to contain much data on the
> frequency of myocarditis among those vaccinated, and it
> didn't seem to mention Alzheimer's at all.
>
> Data elsewhere claims about 2000 myocarditis cases out of
> 350 million vaccination doses.
> https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2788346
> And those few cases typically resolved quickly after no meds
> beyond pain killers. How is that an emergency?
>
>> https://www.dailywire.com/news/admirals-demand-answers-over-coast-guard-cadets-allegedly-expelled-for-vaccine-exemption-requests
>>
>
> That seems to be entirely about religious (or
> quasi-religious) refusals of the vaccine. It always amazes
> me that there are military people who are religiously
> opposed to _this_ vaccine, when they normally get so many
> other vaccines.
>
> I thought for a while that it might be because they worship
> Trump as their god. But that makes no sense. He's the guy
> that bragged about how fast he got the vaccine produced.
>
> (Oh, and he actually did call it a "vaccine"!)
>
> https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-renews-praise-covid-vaccines-one-greatest-achievements-mankind-n1286551
>
>
> In general, "Here's something vaguely related" doesn't
> really work as corroboration.
>
>

I didn't forget your question. Now I have a moment to
retrieve that paper.

Dr Kirk Milhoan is a board-certified pediatric cardiologist.
He reports that myocarditis is the only serious side effect
publicly recognized by FDA and CDC after the Pfizer or
Moderna mRNA shot. Both agencies describe the events as 'rare'.

A May 2021 CDC advisory states, "Rare cases of myocarditis
and pericarditis have occurred most frequently, although not
exclusively, in young adult males within the first week
after receiving the second dose or the booster dose of an
mRNA COVID-19 vaccine [sic]".

Dr Milhoan says that myocarditis in otherwise healthy young
males can be asymptomatic but may be observed with CMR
imaging. He notes a JAMA published study of Big Ten athletes
with a COVID diagnosis which showed 37 of 1597 athletes with
myocarditis.

He mentions various smallish (100, 300 people) studies, then
cites a Danish large study of 4,931,771 people age 12 and up
who were monitored for 28 days after their first shot. 269
developed myocarditis in that period which breaks down as 48
of 3,482,295 (1.4 per 100K) for Pfizer and 21 of 498,814
(4.2 per 100K) for Moderna.

I'm not rapid or passionate about the subject but it's not
nothing and Mr Kunich did not make it up entirely.

whic I gnore here

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 13:00:58 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 9/28/2022 10:55 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 9/28/2022 9:55 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>
>>> But all of the studies are showing that [the Covid
>>> vaccine] DOES cause a high percentage of Myocarditis and
>>> Pericarditis and it increases the possibility of Alzheimer
>>> dementia by 60%.
>>
>> Bullshit.
>>
>> If you have credible citations, post them.
>>
>
>They're well reported with increasing frequency. This
>specialist MD was interviewed in my paper yesterday:
>
>https://gcsmaui.org/news/update-on-myocarditis-by-pediatric-cardiologist-kirk-milhoan-md-phd-faap-facc/
>
>https://www.dailywire.com/news/admirals-demand-answers-over-coast-guard-cadets-allegedly-expelled-for-vaccine-exemption-requests

Perhaps a bit of research on the references
https://www.mauinews.com/news/local-news/2021/08/board-files-complaints-against-maui-health-officer-physician/
And
https://tinyurl.com/2p8md8bj
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 09:19:23 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

(chomp)
>Since no doubt the stupid six are going to deny everything EVEN the CDC admits that the Vaccines are killing people https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/myocarditis.html?s_cid=11537:%2Bmyocarditis%20%2Bcovid%20%2Bvaccine:sem.b:p:RG:GM:gen:PTN:FY21

Where in that article does it day vaccines are killing people? Quote
the specific line. If you can't find it, apologize to your readers
for lying.

What the article does say is:
- Most patients with myocarditis or pericarditis who received care
responded well to medicine and rest and felt better quickly.
- Patients can usually return to their normal daily activities after
their symptoms improve.

>I especially like the part that if you die as a result of being vaccinated you should report it to VAERS.

Nope. What is actually says is:
"If you have any health problems after vaccination, report them
to VAERS"

Please stop lying (again).

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 17:11:19 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>I'm not rapid or passionate about the subject but it's not
>nothing and Mr Kunich did not make it up entirely.

See my two replies to Tom's comments in this thread. If Tom would
kindly provide sources for his amazing information, it might be
possible to fact check more of his amazing facts.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 06:55:50 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>But all of the studies are showing that it DOES cause a high percentage of Myocarditis and Pericarditis and it increases the possibility of Alzheimer dementia by 60%.

Source for these amazing facts? If "all of the studies" show this, it
should be easy for you to find a suitable reference to substantiate
your claim. Or did you just conjure your amazing facts out of thin
air? Please, no articles based on VAERS data.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 15:04:43 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 9/28/2022 2:00 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 9/28/2022 10:55 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 9/28/2022 9:55 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>
>>>> But all of the studies are showing that [the Covid
>>>> vaccine] DOES cause a high percentage of Myocarditis and
>>>> Pericarditis and it increases the possibility of Alzheimer
>>>> dementia by 60%.
>>>
>>> Bullshit.
>>>
>>> If you have credible citations, post them.
>>>
>>
>> They're well reported with increasing frequency. This specialist MD was
>> interviewed in my paper yesterday:
>>
>> https://gcsmaui.org/news/update-on-myocarditis-by-pediatric-cardiologist-kirk-milhoan-md-phd-faap-facc/
>
>I'll skip listening to a 45 minute video, if you don't mind. The
>synopsis doesn't seem to contain much data on the frequency of
>myocarditis among those vaccinated, and it didn't seem to mention
>Alzheimer's at all.
>
>Data elsewhere claims about 2000 myocarditis cases out of 350 million
>vaccination doses.
>https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2788346 And those few
>cases typically resolved quickly after no meds beyond pain killers. How
>is that an emergency?
>
>> https://www.dailywire.com/news/admirals-demand-answers-over-coast-guard-cadets-allegedly-expelled-for-vaccine-exemption-requests
>
>That seems to be entirely about religious (or quasi-religious) refusals
>of the vaccine. It always amazes me that there are military people who
>are religiously opposed to _this_ vaccine, when they normally get so
>many other vaccines.
>
I actually researched that and the truth is that the Defense
Department issued an order that ALL military personal would be
vaccinated. The Cadets refused the order on some sort of religious
grounds and they were discharged. Which, I might add, is a rather soft
decision as they could have been court martialed for failure to obey
an order.
https://www.mcmilitarylaw.com/articles-of-ucmj/article-92-failure-to-obey-an-order/

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 09:19:23 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, September 28, 2022 at 5:59:32 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 9/27/2022 10:47 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> > On Tuesday, September 27, 2022 at 9:32:35 PM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
>> >> On 9/27/2022 8:18 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Andrew, you're an expert at mining the lowest tail of a
>> >>> normal curve.
>> >>>
>> >>> To paraphrase one of your frequent statements: It's a big
>> >>> world. There's at least one of every kind of opinion.
>> >>>
>> >> I agree and that's my point exactly.
>> >>
>> >> We cannot separate science from policy now, as both areas
>> >> are filled with dissent, counterpoints and stubborn facts.
>> >
>> > Your "now" sounds like you think there was a time when science was unanimous.
>> > But there never was such a time. While evidence pointed to the existence
>> > of bacteria and viruses, there were still "scientists" who believed in things like
>> > curses, miasma, or "bad air" as causes of disease.
>> >
>> >> To administratively decree any particular 'scientific'
>> >> analysis as 'truth' and promote it over reasonably credible
>> >> dissent serves no one well in the end.
>> >
>> > What's "reasonably credible" depends VERY heavily on who is doing the reasoning.
>> > There are people who believe in the curative power of flowers. (See "Bach Flower
>> > Remedies.") Others believe in the healing power of crystals. And of course, we now
>> > "know" that CBD oil cures damn near everything. Should insurance companies
>> > and governments really throw money at those beliefs? Personally, I don't think so.
>> >
>> > Rational policy decisions almost always depend on the consensus of _not_ just
>> > any Tom, Dick and Harry (or whoever). Instead, it makes sense to pay attention
>> > to consensus among people who have recognized credentials and expertise.
>> >
>> >> To stymie, stifle,
>> >> ban and persecute dissent is worse and ought to offend even
>> >> those who have no particular opinion on the issue at hand.
>> >
>> > Science, and consequently science based policy decisions, _must_ ignore
>> > outlier opinions. It's obviously impossible to base policy on every weird opinion that
>> > gets generated by every weird mind.
>> >
>> > I haven't heard about Bach Flower Remedies for Covid, but I bet they've been proposed.
>> > You may disagree, but I don't think we should promote or fund those proposals.
>> >
>> > - Frank Krygowski
>> >
>> Yesterday's 22 second video "because Science! "
>>
>> https://710wor.iheart.com/featured/mark-simone/content/2022-09-27-watch-joe-biden-give-the-weirdest-hurricane-advice-ever/
>>
>> A shot which doesn't prevent infection nor reduce contagion
>> is now called a 'vaccine'. I rest my case.
>
>Since no doubt the stupid six are going to deny everything EVEN the CDC admits that the Vaccines are killing people https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/myocarditis.html?s_cid=11537:%2Bmyocarditis%20%2Bcovid%20%2Bvaccine:sem.b:p:RG:GM:gen:PTN:FY21
>
>I especially like the part that if you die as a result of being vaccinated you should report it to VAERS.

Did you actually read your reference" I ask as even a casual glance
tells the reader that:
"Myocarditis and pericarditis have rarely been reported..."

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 15:04:43 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 9/28/2022 2:00 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>Data elsewhere claims about 2000 myocarditis cases out of 350 million
>vaccination doses.
>https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2788346 And those few
>cases typically resolved quickly after no meds beyond pain killers. How
>is that an emergency?

The Jama article also uses highly unreliable crowd sourced VAERS data:

"Design, Setting, and Participants: Descriptive study of reports of
myocarditis to the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) that
occurred after mRNA-based COVID-19 vaccine administration between
December 2020 and August 2021 in 192 405 448 individuals older than 12
years of age in the US; data were processed by VAERS as of September
30, 2021."

Interesting that they should use data for 12 years old and up, when
those affected were 12 to 17 years old. Hmmmm...

<https://vaers.hhs.gov/about.html>
"VAERS is not designed to determine if a vaccine caused a health
problem..."

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 9/28/2022 10:25 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 15:04:43 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> On 9/28/2022 2:00 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> Data elsewhere claims about 2000 myocarditis cases out of 350 million
>> vaccination doses.
>> https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2788346 And those few
>> cases typically resolved quickly after no meds beyond pain killers. How
>> is that an emergency?
>
> The Jama article also uses highly unreliable crowd sourced VAERS data:
>
> "Design, Setting, and Participants: Descriptive study of reports of
> myocarditis to the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) that
> occurred after mRNA-based COVID-19 vaccine administration between
> December 2020 and August 2021 in 192 405 448 individuals older than 12
> years of age in the US; data were processed by VAERS as of September
> 30, 2021."
>
> Interesting that they should use data for 12 years old and up, when
> those affected were 12 to 17 years old. Hmmmm...
>
> <https://vaers.hhs.gov/about.html>
> "VAERS is not designed to determine if a vaccine caused a health
> problem..."
>
>

+1
I have hesitated to draw conclusions because the data is
messy, including both omissions and false reports aggregated
into piles of unreliable, as you note. And not only for side
effects but also for infection, contagion and death. There
are too many actors with too many agenda all busily trying
their best to force the data into various models and ideologies.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 9/28/2022 6:11 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>
>
> I'm not rapid or passionate about the subject but it's not nothing and
> Mr Kunich did not make it up entirely.

Andrew, I'm sorry, but that sounds like the weakest possible
justification for Tom's biased outrage. Tom implied myocarditis from
vaccination was common and serious. In actual fact, that paper found one
mild event in almost 200,000 doses.

Your justification "it's not nothing" would apply to just ONE occurrence
out of hundreds of millions. That justification has zero value.

And of course Tom didn't make it up "entirely." As with most propaganda,
he took a tiny kernel of truth and distorted it grossly. That behavior
deserves no defense.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 9/29/2022 11:09 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 9/28/2022 6:11 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>
>>
>> I'm not rapid or passionate about the subject but it's not
>> nothing and Mr Kunich did not make it up entirely.
>
> Andrew, I'm sorry, but that sounds like the weakest possible
> justification for Tom's biased outrage. Tom implied
> myocarditis from vaccination was common and serious. In
> actual fact, that paper found one mild event in almost
> 200,000 doses.
>
> Your justification "it's not nothing" would apply to just
> ONE occurrence out of hundreds of millions. That
> justification has zero value.
>
> And of course Tom didn't make it up "entirely." As with most
> propaganda, he took a tiny kernel of truth and distorted it
> grossly. That behavior deserves no defense.
>

As is evident (and explicitly noted by you among others), Mr
Kunich often embellishes or exaggerates or whatever beyond
credibility but there's usually something basically true at
the root of it. This is not to excuse the fantastic
hyperbole, just to note that something odd is at its root.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Thu, 29 Sep 2022 07:59:22 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 9/28/2022 10:25 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 15:04:43 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 9/28/2022 2:00 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>> Data elsewhere claims about 2000 myocarditis cases out of 350 million
>>> vaccination doses.
>>> https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2788346 And those few
>>> cases typically resolved quickly after no meds beyond pain killers. How
>>> is that an emergency?
>>
>> The Jama article also uses highly unreliable crowd sourced VAERS data:
>>
>> "Design, Setting, and Participants: Descriptive study of reports of
>> myocarditis to the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) that
>> occurred after mRNA-based COVID-19 vaccine administration between
>> December 2020 and August 2021 in 192 405 448 individuals older than 12
>> years of age in the US; data were processed by VAERS as of September
>> 30, 2021."
>>
>> Interesting that they should use data for 12 years old and up, when
>> those affected were 12 to 17 years old. Hmmmm...
>>
>> <https://vaers.hhs.gov/about.html>
>> "VAERS is not designed to determine if a vaccine caused a health
>> problem..."

>+1

Thanks.

>I have hesitated to draw conclusions because the data is
>messy, including both omissions and false reports aggregated
>into piles of unreliable, as you note.

Yep. Have you looked at the actual data? About 2 months ago, I
downloaded the entire database (spreadsheet) and was rather horrified
by the contents:
<https://vaers.hhs.gov/data.html>
A fairly large number of reported incidents are medical mistakes
(wrong dose, wrong type of vaccine, expired vaccine, improper timing,
etc) which would be an adverse cause rather than an adverse reaction.
Many of the symptoms observed are hardly medical conditions. The
problem has been kicked around on the web since Covid-19 started in
Jan 2020:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=whats+wrong+with+vaers+data>
For example:
"VAERS data distorted to falsely link vaccines and miscarriage"
<https://apnews.com/article/fact-check-VAERS-data-misrepresented-miscarriage-969408592649>
Incidentally, reading the APnews web page also displays a number of
advertisements on the right edge of the page. The "medical"
advertisements shown are as bogus as the medical "facts" that the AP
fact checker hopes to debunk. "Do as I say, not as I do".

>And not only for side
>effects but also for infection, contagion and death.

VAERS has made some effort in organizing the data by symptoms and
vaccine type:
<https://vaers.hhs.gov/data/datasets.html>
I was lost in the abrevs until I found the decryption document:
<https://vaers.hhs.gov/docs/VAERSDataUseGuide_en_September2021.pdf>
I don't really blame the general public for not knowing the medical
codes. However, I do blame them for leaving out essential information
such as age, sex, vaccine type, etc. Many of the fields in the
database are blank.

If you have the time and interest, or are having difficulties
sleeping, I recommend downloading the 2022 data and giving yourself a
tour. I have some time today, so I just grabbed the latest 2022 data:
<https://vaers.hhs.gov/eSubDownload/index.jsp?fn=2022VAERSData.zip>
Expanding the Symptom spreadsheet, I find 250,128 records, including
large numbers of medical mistakes. Quite a few reports of chest pain,
pericarditis and myocarditis. I don't have an easy way to do a word
count in Excel 2010. Oddly, there are many records that indicated
COVID-19 or a SARS-CoV-2 test as a symptom. I guess many people don't
know the difference between a cause and a symptom. Sorting by
Symptom_1, there are quite a few records that are suspiciously
identical for all 5 columns of symptoms. I smell a bot. Anyway, it's
a mess.

>There
>are too many actors with too many agenda all busily trying
>their best to force the data into various models and ideologies.

Very true. The nice thing about random (garbage) data is that there
are so many ways it can be interpreted. That was also the problem
with early global warming research, when the data was little better
than the VAERS mess. Just filter out the inconvenient data, adjust
calculations and parameters for maximum desired effect, garnish with
celebrity proponents and we have amazing facts and universal truths.
I've mentioned this a few times, but it's still an interesting
example:
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/slv-wx/SLV-rainfall-forecast.jpg>
That's the annual rainfall totals for my area from 1888 to 2006. In
theory, I can use this data to produce a trend line and therefore
predict if the following years are going to be a deluge, normal, or a
drought. If I use an even order polynomial expansion trend line, it
increasing rain. If I use an odd order, I get a drought. Given the
right tools, I can take any mass of data and produce a desired result.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 9/29/2022 1:44 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Thu, 29 Sep 2022 07:59:22 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> On 9/28/2022 10:25 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>> On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 15:04:43 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 9/28/2022 2:00 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> Data elsewhere claims about 2000 myocarditis cases out of 350 million
>>>> vaccination doses.
>>>> https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2788346 And those few
>>>> cases typically resolved quickly after no meds beyond pain killers. How
>>>> is that an emergency?
>>>
>>> The Jama article also uses highly unreliable crowd sourced VAERS data:
>>>
>>> "Design, Setting, and Participants: Descriptive study of reports of
>>> myocarditis to the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) that
>>> occurred after mRNA-based COVID-19 vaccine administration between
>>> December 2020 and August 2021 in 192 405 448 individuals older than 12
>>> years of age in the US; data were processed by VAERS as of September
>>> 30, 2021."
>>>
>>> Interesting that they should use data for 12 years old and up, when
>>> those affected were 12 to 17 years old. Hmmmm...
>>>
>>> <https://vaers.hhs.gov/about.html>
>>> "VAERS is not designed to determine if a vaccine caused a health
>>> problem..."
>
>> +1
>
> Thanks.
>
>> I have hesitated to draw conclusions because the data is
>> messy, including both omissions and false reports aggregated
>> into piles of unreliable, as you note.
>
> Yep. Have you looked at the actual data? About 2 months ago, I
> downloaded the entire database (spreadsheet) and was rather horrified
> by the contents:
> <https://vaers.hhs.gov/data.html>
> A fairly large number of reported incidents are medical mistakes
> (wrong dose, wrong type of vaccine, expired vaccine, improper timing,
> etc) which would be an adverse cause rather than an adverse reaction.
> Many of the symptoms observed are hardly medical conditions. The
> problem has been kicked around on the web since Covid-19 started in
> Jan 2020:
> <https://www.google.com/search?q=whats+wrong+with+vaers+data>
> For example:
> "VAERS data distorted to falsely link vaccines and miscarriage"
> <https://apnews.com/article/fact-check-VAERS-data-misrepresented-miscarriage-969408592649>
> Incidentally, reading the APnews web page also displays a number of
> advertisements on the right edge of the page. The "medical"
> advertisements shown are as bogus as the medical "facts" that the AP
> fact checker hopes to debunk. "Do as I say, not as I do".
>
>> And not only for side
>> effects but also for infection, contagion and death.
>
> VAERS has made some effort in organizing the data by symptoms and
> vaccine type:
> <https://vaers.hhs.gov/data/datasets.html>
> I was lost in the abrevs until I found the decryption document:
> <https://vaers.hhs.gov/docs/VAERSDataUseGuide_en_September2021.pdf>
> I don't really blame the general public for not knowing the medical
> codes. However, I do blame them for leaving out essential information
> such as age, sex, vaccine type, etc. Many of the fields in the
> database are blank.
>
> If you have the time and interest, or are having difficulties
> sleeping, I recommend downloading the 2022 data and giving yourself a
> tour. I have some time today, so I just grabbed the latest 2022 data:
> <https://vaers.hhs.gov/eSubDownload/index.jsp?fn=2022VAERSData.zip>
> Expanding the Symptom spreadsheet, I find 250,128 records, including
> large numbers of medical mistakes. Quite a few reports of chest pain,
> pericarditis and myocarditis. I don't have an easy way to do a word
> count in Excel 2010. Oddly, there are many records that indicated
> COVID-19 or a SARS-CoV-2 test as a symptom. I guess many people don't
> know the difference between a cause and a symptom. Sorting by
> Symptom_1, there are quite a few records that are suspiciously
> identical for all 5 columns of symptoms. I smell a bot. Anyway, it's
> a mess.
>
>> There
>> are too many actors with too many agenda all busily trying
>> their best to force the data into various models and ideologies.
>
> Very true. The nice thing about random (garbage) data is that there
> are so many ways it can be interpreted. That was also the problem
> with early global warming research, when the data was little better
> than the VAERS mess. Just filter out the inconvenient data, adjust
> calculations and parameters for maximum desired effect, garnish with
> celebrity proponents and we have amazing facts and universal truths.
> I've mentioned this a few times, but it's still an interesting
> example:
> <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/slv-wx/SLV-rainfall-forecast.jpg>
> That's the annual rainfall totals for my area from 1888 to 2006. In
> theory, I can use this data to produce a trend line and therefore
> predict if the following years are going to be a deluge, normal, or a
> drought. If I use an even order polynomial expansion trend line, it
> increasing rain. If I use an odd order, I get a drought. Given the
> right tools, I can take any mass of data and produce a desired result.
>
>
>

I once had a tenant who wrote curve smoothing software for
statistical modelling. Just as pollsters note, he said he
could 'predict' whatever results were required from any data
set.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Wednesday, September 28, 2022 at 3:11:20 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 9/28/2022 2:04 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 9/28/2022 2:00 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 9/28/2022 10:55 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>> On 9/28/2022 9:55 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> But all of the studies are showing that [the Covid
> >>>> vaccine] DOES cause a high percentage of Myocarditis and
> >>>> Pericarditis and it increases the possibility of Alzheimer
> >>>> dementia by 60%.
> >>>
> >>> Bullshit.
> >>>
> >>> If you have credible citations, post them.
> >>>
> >>
> >> They're well reported with increasing frequency. This
> >> specialist MD was interviewed in my paper yesterday:
> >>
> >> https://gcsmaui.org/news/update-on-myocarditis-by-pediatric-cardiologist-kirk-milhoan-md-phd-faap-facc/
> >>
> >
> > I'll skip listening to a 45 minute video, if you don't mind.
> > The synopsis doesn't seem to contain much data on the
> > frequency of myocarditis among those vaccinated, and it
> > didn't seem to mention Alzheimer's at all.
> >
> > Data elsewhere claims about 2000 myocarditis cases out of
> > 350 million vaccination doses.
> > https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2788346
> > And those few cases typically resolved quickly after no meds
> > beyond pain killers. How is that an emergency?
> >
> >> https://www.dailywire.com/news/admirals-demand-answers-over-coast-guard-cadets-allegedly-expelled-for-vaccine-exemption-requests
> >>
> >
> > That seems to be entirely about religious (or
> > quasi-religious) refusals of the vaccine. It always amazes
> > me that there are military people who are religiously
> > opposed to _this_ vaccine, when they normally get so many
> > other vaccines.
> >
> > I thought for a while that it might be because they worship
> > Trump as their god. But that makes no sense. He's the guy
> > that bragged about how fast he got the vaccine produced.
> >
> > (Oh, and he actually did call it a "vaccine"!)
> >
> > https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-renews-praise-covid-vaccines-one-greatest-achievements-mankind-n1286551
> >
> >
> > In general, "Here's something vaguely related" doesn't
> > really work as corroboration.
> >
> >
>
> I didn't forget your question. Now I have a moment to
> retrieve that paper.
>
> Dr Kirk Milhoan is a board-certified pediatric cardiologist.
> He reports that myocarditis is the only serious side effect
> publicly recognized by FDA and CDC after the Pfizer or
> Moderna mRNA shot. Both agencies describe the events as 'rare'.
>
> A May 2021 CDC advisory states, "Rare cases of myocarditis
> and pericarditis have occurred most frequently, although not
> exclusively, in young adult males within the first week
> after receiving the second dose or the booster dose of an
> mRNA COVID-19 vaccine [sic]".
>
> Dr Milhoan says that myocarditis in otherwise healthy young
> males can be asymptomatic but may be observed with CMR
> imaging. He notes a JAMA published study of Big Ten athletes
> with a COVID diagnosis which showed 37 of 1597 athletes with
> myocarditis.
>
> He mentions various smallish (100, 300 people) studies, then
> cites a Danish large study of 4,931,771 people age 12 and up
> who were monitored for 28 days after their first shot. 269
> developed myocarditis in that period which breaks down as 48
> of 3,482,295 (1.4 per 100K) for Pfizer and 21 of 498,814
> (4.2 per 100K) for Moderna.
>
> I'm not rapid or passionate about the subject but it's not
> nothing and Mr Kunich did not make it up entirely.
>
> whic I gnore here

Claiming that it is "rare" and then saying that it can be asymptomatic really should give you pause to think.

On Thursday, September 29, 2022 at 5:59:21 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 9/28/2022 10:25 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> > On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 15:04:43 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> > <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >
> >> On 9/28/2022 2:00 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> >> Data elsewhere claims about 2000 myocarditis cases out of 350 million
> >> vaccination doses.
> >> https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2788346 And those few
> >> cases typically resolved quickly after no meds beyond pain killers. How
> >> is that an emergency?
> >
> > The Jama article also uses highly unreliable crowd sourced VAERS data:
> >
> > "Design, Setting, and Participants: Descriptive study of reports of
> > myocarditis to the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) that
> > occurred after mRNA-based COVID-19 vaccine administration between
> > December 2020 and August 2021 in 192 405 448 individuals older than 12
> > years of age in the US; data were processed by VAERS as of September
> > 30, 2021."
> >
> > Interesting that they should use data for 12 years old and up, when
> > those affected were 12 to 17 years old. Hmmmm...
> >
> > <https://vaers.hhs.gov/about.html>
> > "VAERS is not designed to determine if a vaccine caused a health
> > problem..."
> >
> >
> +1
> I have hesitated to draw conclusions because the data is
> messy, including both omissions and false reports aggregated
> into piles of unreliable, as you note. And not only for side
> effects but also for infection, contagion and death. There
> are too many actors with too many agenda all busily trying
> their best to force the data into various models and ideologies.

VAERS is GENERALLY ignored. Doctors have better things to do than write up reports to the government. So the numbers are unreliable.

On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 17:11:19 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>I didn't forget your question. Now I have a moment to
>retrieve that paper.

Do you have the URL of that paper?

>Dr Kirk Milhoan is a board-certified pediatric cardiologist.
>He reports that myocarditis is the only serious side effect
>publicly recognized by FDA and CDC after the Pfizer or
>Moderna mRNA shot. Both agencies describe the events as 'rare'.

"Board files complaints against Maui health officer, physician"
"Both have supported COVID-19 treatments that federal agencies warn
against" (September 28, 2022)
<https://www.mauinews.com/news/local-news/2021/08/board-files-complaints-against-maui-health-officer-physician/>

"I understand I’m going to be investigated. I thought this might
happen," Milhoan said Friday. "Usually people who suggest early
treatment come under some type of scrutiny for what they’re doing. I’m
not anti-vaxxer. I’m pro-vaccine. I’m not asking people not to get
vaccinated. All I’m trying to do is, I see people who are infected,
now what do I do? It’s too late (at that point) to say, ‘Go get
vaccinated.’ "

Retaliation by the Hawaii Medical Board? Methinks probably yes.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Thu, 29 Sep 2022 13:18:16 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 9/29/2022 11:09 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 9/28/2022 6:11 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm not rapid or passionate about the subject but it's not
>>> nothing and Mr Kunich did not make it up entirely.
>>
>> Andrew, I'm sorry, but that sounds like the weakest possible
>> justification for Tom's biased outrage. Tom implied
>> myocarditis from vaccination was common and serious. In
>> actual fact, that paper found one mild event in almost
>> 200,000 doses.
>>
>> Your justification "it's not nothing" would apply to just
>> ONE occurrence out of hundreds of millions. That
>> justification has zero value.
>>
>> And of course Tom didn't make it up "entirely." As with most
>> propaganda, he took a tiny kernel of truth and distorted it
>> grossly. That behavior deserves no defense.
>>
>
>As is evident (and explicitly noted by you among others), Mr
>Kunich often embellishes or exaggerates or whatever beyond
>credibility but there's usually something basically true at
>the root of it. This is not to excuse the fantastic
>hyperbole, just to note that something odd is at its root.

You mean like his wild eyed tale about how difficult it was to live
where the Monsoon winds blow?
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 9/29/2022 5:44 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 17:11:19 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> I didn't forget your question. Now I have a moment to
>> retrieve that paper.
>
> Do you have the URL of that paper?
>
>> Dr Kirk Milhoan is a board-certified pediatric cardiologist.
>> He reports that myocarditis is the only serious side effect
>> publicly recognized by FDA and CDC after the Pfizer or
>> Moderna mRNA shot. Both agencies describe the events as 'rare'.
>
> "Board files complaints against Maui health officer, physician"
> "Both have supported COVID-19 treatments that federal agencies warn
> against" (September 28, 2022)
> <https://www.mauinews.com/news/local-news/2021/08/board-files-complaints-against-maui-health-officer-physician/>
>
> "I understand I’m going to be investigated. I thought this might
> happen," Milhoan said Friday. "Usually people who suggest early
> treatment come under some type of scrutiny for what they’re doing. I’m
> not anti-vaxxer. I’m pro-vaccine. I’m not asking people not to get
> vaccinated. All I’m trying to do is, I see people who are infected,
> now what do I do? It’s too late (at that point) to say, ‘Go get
> vaccinated.’ "
>
> Retaliation by the Hawaii Medical Board? Methinks probably yes.
>

It was the 20 September Epoch Times dead tree edition.
I get them second hand a week or so after pub date.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 9/29/2022 5:48 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Thu, 29 Sep 2022 13:18:16 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> On 9/29/2022 11:09 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 9/28/2022 6:11 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm not rapid or passionate about the subject but it's not
>>>> nothing and Mr Kunich did not make it up entirely.
>>>
>>> Andrew, I'm sorry, but that sounds like the weakest possible
>>> justification for Tom's biased outrage. Tom implied
>>> myocarditis from vaccination was common and serious. In
>>> actual fact, that paper found one mild event in almost
>>> 200,000 doses.
>>>
>>> Your justification "it's not nothing" would apply to just
>>> ONE occurrence out of hundreds of millions. That
>>> justification has zero value.
>>>
>>> And of course Tom didn't make it up "entirely." As with most
>>> propaganda, he took a tiny kernel of truth and distorted it
>>> grossly. That behavior deserves no defense.
>>>
>>
>> As is evident (and explicitly noted by you among others), Mr
>> Kunich often embellishes or exaggerates or whatever beyond
>> credibility but there's usually something basically true at
>> the root of it. This is not to excuse the fantastic
>> hyperbole, just to note that something odd is at its root.
>
> You mean like his wild eyed tale about how difficult it was to live
> where the Monsoon winds blow?
>

Come visit Wisconsin in January and we'll swap hardship stories.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Thu, 29 Sep 2022 13:50:08 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 9/29/2022 1:44 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Thu, 29 Sep 2022 07:59:22 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 9/28/2022 10:25 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 15:04:43 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 9/28/2022 2:00 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>> Data elsewhere claims about 2000 myocarditis cases out of 350 million
>>>>> vaccination doses.
>>>>> https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2788346 And those few
>>>>> cases typically resolved quickly after no meds beyond pain killers. How
>>>>> is that an emergency?
>>>>
>>>> The Jama article also uses highly unreliable crowd sourced VAERS data:
>>>>
>>>> "Design, Setting, and Participants: Descriptive study of reports of
>>>> myocarditis to the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) that
>>>> occurred after mRNA-based COVID-19 vaccine administration between
>>>> December 2020 and August 2021 in 192 405 448 individuals older than 12
>>>> years of age in the US; data were processed by VAERS as of September
>>>> 30, 2021."
>>>>
>>>> Interesting that they should use data for 12 years old and up, when
>>>> those affected were 12 to 17 years old. Hmmmm...
>>>>
>>>> <https://vaers.hhs.gov/about.html>
>>>> "VAERS is not designed to determine if a vaccine caused a health
>>>> problem..."
>>
>>> +1
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>>> I have hesitated to draw conclusions because the data is
>>> messy, including both omissions and false reports aggregated
>>> into piles of unreliable, as you note.
>>
>> Yep. Have you looked at the actual data? About 2 months ago, I
>> downloaded the entire database (spreadsheet) and was rather horrified
>> by the contents:
>> <https://vaers.hhs.gov/data.html>
>> A fairly large number of reported incidents are medical mistakes
>> (wrong dose, wrong type of vaccine, expired vaccine, improper timing,
>> etc) which would be an adverse cause rather than an adverse reaction.
>> Many of the symptoms observed are hardly medical conditions. The
>> problem has been kicked around on the web since Covid-19 started in
>> Jan 2020:
>> <https://www.google.com/search?q=whats+wrong+with+vaers+data>
>> For example:
>> "VAERS data distorted to falsely link vaccines and miscarriage"
>> <https://apnews.com/article/fact-check-VAERS-data-misrepresented-miscarriage-969408592649>
>> Incidentally, reading the APnews web page also displays a number of
>> advertisements on the right edge of the page. The "medical"
>> advertisements shown are as bogus as the medical "facts" that the AP
>> fact checker hopes to debunk. "Do as I say, not as I do".
>>
>>> And not only for side
>>> effects but also for infection, contagion and death.
>>
>> VAERS has made some effort in organizing the data by symptoms and
>> vaccine type:
>> <https://vaers.hhs.gov/data/datasets.html>
>> I was lost in the abrevs until I found the decryption document:
>> <https://vaers.hhs.gov/docs/VAERSDataUseGuide_en_September2021.pdf>
>> I don't really blame the general public for not knowing the medical
>> codes. However, I do blame them for leaving out essential information
>> such as age, sex, vaccine type, etc. Many of the fields in the
>> database are blank.
>>
>> If you have the time and interest, or are having difficulties
>> sleeping, I recommend downloading the 2022 data and giving yourself a
>> tour. I have some time today, so I just grabbed the latest 2022 data:
>> <https://vaers.hhs.gov/eSubDownload/index.jsp?fn=2022VAERSData.zip>
>> Expanding the Symptom spreadsheet, I find 250,128 records, including
>> large numbers of medical mistakes. Quite a few reports of chest pain,
>> pericarditis and myocarditis. I don't have an easy way to do a word
>> count in Excel 2010. Oddly, there are many records that indicated
>> COVID-19 or a SARS-CoV-2 test as a symptom. I guess many people don't
>> know the difference between a cause and a symptom. Sorting by
>> Symptom_1, there are quite a few records that are suspiciously
>> identical for all 5 columns of symptoms. I smell a bot. Anyway, it's
>> a mess.
>>
>>> There
>>> are too many actors with too many agenda all busily trying
>>> their best to force the data into various models and ideologies.
>>
>> Very true. The nice thing about random (garbage) data is that there
>> are so many ways it can be interpreted. That was also the problem
>> with early global warming research, when the data was little better
>> than the VAERS mess. Just filter out the inconvenient data, adjust
>> calculations and parameters for maximum desired effect, garnish with
>> celebrity proponents and we have amazing facts and universal truths.
>> I've mentioned this a few times, but it's still an interesting
>> example:
>> <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/slv-wx/SLV-rainfall-forecast.jpg>
>> That's the annual rainfall totals for my area from 1888 to 2006. In
>> theory, I can use this data to produce a trend line and therefore
>> predict if the following years are going to be a deluge, normal, or a
>> drought. If I use an even order polynomial expansion trend line, it
>> increasing rain. If I use an odd order, I get a drought. Given the
>> right tools, I can take any mass of data and produce a desired result.
>>
>>
>>
>
>I once had a tenant who wrote curve smoothing software for
>statistical modelling. Just as pollsters note, he said he
>could 'predict' whatever results were required from any data
>set.

As I have mentioned a good friend made his living from financial
studies and as part of these did "surveys" and once told me, "Tell me
what you want to prove and I'll design a survey to prove it".
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Thu, 29 Sep 2022 18:03:45 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 9/29/2022 5:44 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 17:11:19 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> I didn't forget your question. Now I have a moment to
>>> retrieve that paper.
>>
>> Do you have the URL of that paper?
>>
>>> Dr Kirk Milhoan is a board-certified pediatric cardiologist.
>>> He reports that myocarditis is the only serious side effect
>>> publicly recognized by FDA and CDC after the Pfizer or
>>> Moderna mRNA shot. Both agencies describe the events as 'rare'.
>>
>> "Board files complaints against Maui health officer, physician"
>> "Both have supported COVID-19 treatments that federal agencies warn
>> against" (September 28, 2022)
>> <https://www.mauinews.com/news/local-news/2021/08/board-files-complaints-against-maui-health-officer-physician/>
>>
>> "I understand I’m going to be investigated. I thought this might
>> happen," Milhoan said Friday. "Usually people who suggest early
>> treatment come under some type of scrutiny for what they’re doing. I’m
>> not anti-vaxxer. I’m pro-vaccine. I’m not asking people not to get
>> vaccinated. All I’m trying to do is, I see people who are infected,
>> now what do I do? It’s too late (at that point) to say, ‘Go get
>> vaccinated.’ "
>>
>> Retaliation by the Hawaii Medical Board? Methinks probably yes.

>It was the 20 September Epoch Times dead tree edition.
>I get them second hand a week or so after pub date.

Foundit:

"Doctors: COVID Vaccinations for Children Is Criminal, Must Stop"
(June 13, 2022)
<https://www.theepochtimes.com/covid-vaccinations-for-children-is-criminal-must-stop_4529512.html?welcomeuser=1>
I had to go through a registration ordeal process to obtain 30 days of
free access.

In the MauiNews article (URL above) Dr Milhoan claims not to be an
anti-vaxxer. However, in the Epoch Times article he's very much
against vaccinations for children. The article seems legit, until I
trace back the sources of his statements. For example, footnote (4)
cites:
"Thrombocytopenia following Pfizer and Moderna SARS-CoV-2
vaccination." (Mar 9, 2021)
<https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8014568/>
which once again uses the VAERS data as the source of the authors
claims. He found 17 likely cases:
<https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8014568/bin/AJH-96-534-s001.tif>
Notice that the youngest is 22 years old, 3 of them had existing
thrombocytopenia (low platelet blood count) conditions, and that there
were no fatalities.

If this type of "research" is what drives Dr Milhoan, I would question
his ability to provide authoritative statements on medicine.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Thu, 29 Sep 2022 18:03:45 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 9/29/2022 5:44 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 17:11:19 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> I didn't forget your question. Now I have a moment to
>>> retrieve that paper.
>>
>> Do you have the URL of that paper?
>>
>>> Dr Kirk Milhoan is a board-certified pediatric cardiologist.
>>> He reports that myocarditis is the only serious side effect
>>> publicly recognized by FDA and CDC after the Pfizer or
>>> Moderna mRNA shot. Both agencies describe the events as 'rare'.
>>
>> "Board files complaints against Maui health officer, physician"
>> "Both have supported COVID-19 treatments that federal agencies warn
>> against" (September 28, 2022)
>> <https://www.mauinews.com/news/local-news/2021/08/board-files-complaints-against-maui-health-officer-physician/>
>>
>> "I understand I’m going to be investigated. I thought this might
>> happen," Milhoan said Friday. "Usually people who suggest early
>> treatment come under some type of scrutiny for what they’re doing. I’m
>> not anti-vaxxer. I’m pro-vaccine. I’m not asking people not to get
>> vaccinated. All I’m trying to do is, I see people who are infected,
>> now what do I do? It’s too late (at that point) to say, ‘Go get
>> vaccinated.’ "
>>
>> Retaliation by the Hawaii Medical Board? Methinks probably yes.
>>
>
>It was the 20 September Epoch Times dead tree edition.
>I get them second hand a week or so after pub date.

I looked it up.
https://www.mauinews.com/news/local-news/2021/08/board-files-complaints-against-maui-health-officer-physician/
The Hawaii Medical Board has filed complaints against Maui’s top
health official and a Valley Isle physician following reports that
they backed COVID-19 treatments that state and federal health agencies
advise against.

https://www.mauinews.com/news/local-news/2022/04/doctors-cleared-of-covid-19-misinformation-allegations/
“Upon careful review of all available information, it appears that
there is insufficient evidence to support violation of the Statutes
regarding the practice of medicine,” Kavan Saiki, a supervising
investigator for RICO, said in a letter sent to Pang’s attorney. “We
will therefore be closing this case and no further action will be
taken.”

The complaint seems to have arise from "expressed support for
treating COVID-19 with hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin, two drugs
that both the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and the
Food and Drug Administration have urged residents not to take to treat
the virus."
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Thu, 29 Sep 2022 18:04:48 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 9/29/2022 5:48 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Thu, 29 Sep 2022 13:18:16 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 9/29/2022 11:09 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 9/28/2022 6:11 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not rapid or passionate about the subject but it's not
>>>>> nothing and Mr Kunich did not make it up entirely.
>>>>
>>>> Andrew, I'm sorry, but that sounds like the weakest possible
>>>> justification for Tom's biased outrage. Tom implied
>>>> myocarditis from vaccination was common and serious. In
>>>> actual fact, that paper found one mild event in almost
>>>> 200,000 doses.
>>>>
>>>> Your justification "it's not nothing" would apply to just
>>>> ONE occurrence out of hundreds of millions. That
>>>> justification has zero value.
>>>>
>>>> And of course Tom didn't make it up "entirely." As with most
>>>> propaganda, he took a tiny kernel of truth and distorted it
>>>> grossly. That behavior deserves no defense.
>>>>
>>>
>>> As is evident (and explicitly noted by you among others), Mr
>>> Kunich often embellishes or exaggerates or whatever beyond
>>> credibility but there's usually something basically true at
>>> the root of it. This is not to excuse the fantastic
>>> hyperbole, just to note that something odd is at its root.
>>
>> You mean like his wild eyed tale about how difficult it was to live
>> where the Monsoon winds blow?
>>
>
>
>Come visit Wisconsin in January and we'll swap hardship stories.

I don't believe that you have Monsoon Winds in Wisconsin....
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 9/29/2022 7:57 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Thu, 29 Sep 2022 18:03:45 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> On 9/29/2022 5:44 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>> On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 17:11:19 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I didn't forget your question. Now I have a moment to
>>>> retrieve that paper.
>>>
>>> Do you have the URL of that paper?
>>>
>>>> Dr Kirk Milhoan is a board-certified pediatric cardiologist.
>>>> He reports that myocarditis is the only serious side effect
>>>> publicly recognized by FDA and CDC after the Pfizer or
>>>> Moderna mRNA shot. Both agencies describe the events as 'rare'.
>>>
>>> "Board files complaints against Maui health officer, physician"
>>> "Both have supported COVID-19 treatments that federal agencies warn
>>> against" (September 28, 2022)
>>> <https://www.mauinews.com/news/local-news/2021/08/board-files-complaints-against-maui-health-officer-physician/ " rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://www.mauinews.com/news/local-news/2021/08/board-files-complaints-against-maui-health-officer-physician/>
>>>
>>> "I understand I’m going to be investigated. I thought this might
>>> happen," Milhoan said Friday. "Usually people who suggest early
>>> treatment come under some type of scrutiny for what they’re doing. I’m
>>> not anti-vaxxer. I’m pro-vaccine. I’m not asking people not to get
>>> vaccinated. All I’m trying to do is, I see people who are infected,
>>> now what do I do? It’s too late (at that point) to say, ‘Go get
>>> vaccinated.’ "
>>>
>>> Retaliation by the Hawaii Medical Board? Methinks probably yes.
>>>
>>
>> It was the 20 September Epoch Times dead tree edition.
>> I get them second hand a week or so after pub date.
>
> I looked it up.
> https://www.mauinews.com/news/local-news/2021/08/board-files-complaints-against-maui-health-officer-physician/
> The Hawaii Medical Board has filed complaints against Maui’s top
> health official and a Valley Isle physician following reports that
> they backed COVID-19 treatments that state and federal health agencies
> advise against.
>
> https://www.mauinews.com/news/local-news/2022/04/doctors-cleared-of-covid-19-misinformation-allegations/
> “Upon careful review of all available information, it appears that
> there is insufficient evidence to support violation of the Statutes
> regarding the practice of medicine,” Kavan Saiki, a supervising
> investigator for RICO, said in a letter sent to Pang’s attorney. “We
> will therefore be closing this case and no further action will be
> taken.”
>
> The complaint seems to have arise from "expressed support for
> treating COVID-19 with hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin, two drugs
> that both the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and the
> Food and Drug Administration have urged residents not to take to treat
> the virus."
>

Exactly, which is where this conversation turned earlier:

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/apr/7/michigan-democrat-thanks-trump-hydroxychloroquine-/

Actual practice of medicine or other scientific inquiries
are OK until they run smack up against someone's ideology.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971