On Saturday, June 12, 2021 at 3:00:59 PM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
> On Sat, 12 Jun 2021 08:08:46 -0700 (PDT), Ed Lee
> <edward....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >I am saying we need to keep social distancing and wearing masks until new cases get close to zero.
> The daily case rate in California is about 2% of peak. That's close to
> zero. Maybe false positives.
>
> The daily death rate is now about 1 PPM per day, but that may be
> over-stated too, as in covid-asigned gunshot and motorcycle wreck
> deaths.

Comparing to the peak rate is meaningless. What if the peak had seen was 10 times higher? Would that mean a "low" rate would be 150,000 per day instead of 15,000 per day? The current death rate is still over 400 per day. With gun shot deaths per day being around 100 per day, it's hard to hand wave away the COVID numbers as misreporting. Of course, you actually knew that, but chose to make the statement anyway.

> About twice as many people are dying from fentanyl in SF as from
> covid; the fantanyl is going up and the covid is going down. But our
> DA won't prosecute "low level" mass murderers.

Is that somehow relevant? Do fentanyl uses have a way of causing a significant proportion of the remaining population to start using fentanyl against their will? You have to have a very strange sense of reason to think the two have anything to do with one another.

--

Rick C.

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On 6/12/2021 3:21 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
> lørdag den 12. juni 2021 kl. 23.49.08 UTC+2 skrev jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com:
>> On Sat, 12 Jun 2021 14:43:06 -0700 (PDT), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
>> <lang...@fonz.dk> wrote:
>>>> About twice as many people are dying from fentanyl in SF as from
>>>> covid; the fantanyl is going up and the covid is going down. But our
>>>> DA won't prosecute "low level" mass murderers.
>>>
>>> that would mean the government prosecuting themselves, because the
>>> main reason fentanyl is in circulation and people OD on random concentrations
>>> is the war on drugs
>> Makes no sense to me, unless you mean that the war on drugs isn't
>> being pursued hard enough.
>
> it is because of the war on drugs that drugs are something people get in the street
> with no idea what it contains, spiked with fentanyl because it is cheap and easy
> to transport.

We have laws against a substance -- then develop (and pay for!)
other substances to save the lives of folks who ABUSE those
ILLEGAL substances.

Should we have special rebates available for people who have gambling
addictions?

IV drug use is largely illegal. Though folks will advocate for
making "needles" available, free of charge (to reduce the risk
of blood borne disease spread). Should we make young children
available for paedophiles?

OTOH, you will see the exact opposite restrictions put in place
in other "jurisdictions" -- e.g., making the distribution of
"needles" a crime, itself. ("If they want to shoot up, LET
them get sick and die!")

What Americans naively forget is this isn't a single, homogenous
country with a universal set of laws, regulations, social norms,
etc. Those folks look at things with the mindset of a *simpleton*.

It would be like expecting laws (and social customs!) in DK to be
identical to those in DE! Or IL. Yeah. Sure.

E.g., here (AZ), laws are intended to "protect" us in ways that
are completely contrary to what they might be in, e.g., MA. And,
ID is even more "different". Within each there will also be
very different approaches to the role of government, individual
responsibilities, etc. E.g., Austin and Dallas (both in TX) are
very different worlds!

Early in the pandemic, our goobernor issued an executive order
FORBIDDING local jurisdictions from issuing orders to close
businesses (in THEIR jurisdictions). I'm sure he was miffed
that he couldn't FORCE businesses to stay open -- but relied
on the business owners' desire to make money to incentivize them
to do so. To their chagrin, customers largely stayed home
(so, if you stayed open, you likely ended up in worse shape
than a competitor who opted to close!)

Businesses are now free to impose mask mandates, if they want.
Many will do so -- and not enforce them. Folks who have been
vaccinated feel they don't NEED to wear a mask -- and folks
who haven't don't WANT to wear a mask.

[My neighbor collapsed, yesterday, while we were chatting on my front
porch. I informed the 911 operator that we had all been vaccinated.
Yet, she insisted we all "mask up" before help arrived. When the
"first responders" (here, that's the fire department) arrived, *none*
of them were wearing masks (hmmm... I have to wear a mask to protect
YOU but you don't have to wear one to protect ME?). Despite everyone
being in close quarters (within a couple of feet of each other to
"render aid"). OTOH, when the ambulance arrived, THEY were masked.
You'd think there would be some sort of consistency -- or, does everyone
just do what they want?]

> same thing happened during prohibition

People will acquire whatever they feel they "need" by whatever means
possible. "Reason" doesn't enter into the equation as their "need"
is already irrational (in the eyes of The Public, at large).

Sterno, anyone?

>> Some day we'll have an IV drug that is incredible pleasurable and
>> instantly addictive and cheap to make. Fentanyl is a step in that
>> direction.
>
> and people will use it no matter what you do

Exactly. You can't legislate morality. You can sit on a high horse
and look down your nose at those who "do things that you abhor"
(and ASSUME that nothing YOU do is abhorred by others!) or you
can wrap your head around the idea that people (and places) are
different.

I like to look at things from a standpoint of intellectual curiosity;
what is it that folks so crave about gambling, porn, drug abuse,
smoking/vaping, book reading, sports, etc. that makes it so
appealing? E.g., the idea of WATCHING someone play a ball game
is anathema to me -- wouldn't *I* want to play the game? (sort
of like watching people have sex... what's up with that?)

I spent a day (entertaining an out-of-town visitor) driving from
one pizzeria to another -- LITERALLY -- (and having a pie at each).
It was delightful! (good pizza is always delightful). But, I'd
not relish doing it... often! (It *is* possible to "OD" on too
much pizza!)

On Sunday, June 13, 2021 at 3:50:39 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
>
> E.g., here (AZ), laws are intended to "protect" us in ways that
> are completely contrary to what they might be in, e.g., MA.

Nobody cares what happens in AZ these days, the state that can't even run an election without everlasting doubt about the accuracy of the result. Jeez, until that mess is cleared up nothing that AZ does is worth hearing about.

--

Rick C.

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On 2021-06-13, Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Saturday, June 12, 2021 at 11:47:12 AM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
>> On 6/12/2021 8:08 AM, Ed Lee wrote:
>>
>> > I am saying we need to keep social distancing and wearing masks until new cases get close to zero.
>> And I'm saying you're going to have an EXTREMELY hard time trying to get
>> fully vaccinated people to continue wearing masks, socially distancing, etc.
>
> Hardly. We have many laws on the books that protect the public from themselves, this is just another one that you obey or be fined or go to jail.
>
>
>> "But, I got the vaccination so I didn't HAVE TO do so!
>> Were they LYING when they used THAT as an incentive to
>> get me to take the vaccination???"
>
> WTF are you talking about? No one has promised that if you get vaccinated you won't have to wear a mask.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/fully-vaccinated.html

..
.. If you are fully vaccinated, you can resume activities that you
..did prior to the pandemic.
.. Fully vaccinated people can resume activities without wearing a
..mask or physically distancing, except where required by federal,
..state, local, tribal, or territorial laws, rules, and regulations,
..including local business and workplace guidance.
..

Yeah seems there's still room for local legistlature and site operators to require masks.

--
Jasen.

On Sunday, June 13, 2021 at 7:30:50 PM UTC-4, Jasen Betts wrote:
> On 2021-06-13, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Saturday, June 12, 2021 at 11:47:12 AM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
> >> On 6/12/2021 8:08 AM, Ed Lee wrote:
> >>
> >> > I am saying we need to keep social distancing and wearing masks until new cases get close to zero.
> >> And I'm saying you're going to have an EXTREMELY hard time trying to get
> >> fully vaccinated people to continue wearing masks, socially distancing, etc.
> >
> > Hardly. We have many laws on the books that protect the public from themselves, this is just another one that you obey or be fined or go to jail.
> >
> >
> >> "But, I got the vaccination so I didn't HAVE TO do so!
> >> Were they LYING when they used THAT as an incentive to
> >> get me to take the vaccination???"
> >
> > WTF are you talking about? No one has promised that if you get vaccinated you won't have to wear a mask.
> https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/fully-vaccinated.html

I take it English is not your first language? "Fully vaccinated people can resume activities without wearing a mask or physically distancing, except where required by federal, state, local, tribal, or territorial laws, rules, and regulations, including local business and workplace guidance."

Do you see where they mention the exceptions for following the laws and other rules?

> . If you are fully vaccinated, you can resume activities that you
> .did prior to the pandemic.
> . Fully vaccinated people can resume activities without wearing a
> .mask or physically distancing, except where required by federal,
> .state, local, tribal, or territorial laws, rules, and regulations,
> .including local business and workplace guidance.
> .
>
> Yeah seems there's still room for local legistlature and site operators to require masks.

Oh, so you can read English, but the comprehension is a bit lacking. Laws and business regulations are the only restrictions we've ever had in effect. What else is there?

So nothing regarding wearing masks was "promised" to anyone getting the vaccine.

This is the typical BS that spews from some of the malcontents regarding this disease. It's a disease with potential to continue killing many people. But the BS artists are so preoccupied with bringing down any regulation or restriction regarding this they forget there are consequences to "opening" up... life altering consequences. Getting this disease now is a bit like being the last guy to die in a war while the word of the cease fire is being distributed. Even if you don't die, the potential health impacts are huge.

So continue to wear masks even if you are the only person in the room doing it. Let someone else be the Sgt. Anthony Marchione of COVID.

--

Rick C.

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On 6/13/2021 4:10 PM, Jasen Betts wrote:
> https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/fully-vaccinated.html
>
> . If you are fully vaccinated, you can resume activities that you
> .did prior to the pandemic.
> . Fully vaccinated people can resume activities without wearing a
> .mask or physically distancing, except where required by federal,
> .state, local, tribal, or territorial laws, rules, and regulations,
> .including local business and workplace guidance.
>
> Yeah seems there's still room for local legistlature and site operators to require masks.

The more significant aspect is that legislatures/goobernors can
work to PREVENT remedies that might reduce the spread of the
disease.

Anyone think Texas's governor is going to issue a mask mandate?
Even if TX sees a dramatic uptick in cases? Instead, you see
actions that PREVENT local communities from deciding what's
right IN THEIR EYES.

GA? IA? ID? MT? WY? Half of the map is "red" and few of those
legislatures will be eager to "restrict personal liberties".
They might give mealy mouth support to "correct" policies but
they surely won't enact/enforce laws that force the populace to
comply.

To *expect* "the correct remedies" to happen is just naivite.

And, how are you going to prevent folks from those places from
entering YOUR state/jurisdiction? Prevent interstate commerce?
Block flights in? Roadblocks on all highways: "Your papers please"

Yup. pure fantasy.

Now we'll see lawsuits over businesses demanding evidence of
vaccination (how will they handle counterfeit vaccination cards?
subject employees to random screenings with threat of termination?).
Likewise colleges and other school systems.

Some clown nurse on TV claiming she doesn't want to be FORCED
to be vaccinated: "The vaccine is EXPERIMENTAL!" "OK, if the
FDA grants full approval, will you get vaccinated, then?" "No"

Ah, so the "experimental" is just a dodge. What if you infect
a patient? Should they be able to sue you, personally, for
KNOWINGLY putting their health/life at risk?

Should an employer allow you to possibly sideline some of his
workforce because of your perceived RIGHT to refuse the vaccine?

Seems like this bottom is pretty hard having gone on for nearly two weeks. The good news is there's no sign of an uptick.

It seems the vaccinations are becoming even more important with the Delta variant spreading in the US. It's now around 10% of the cases and will become the dominant strain in due course being the most contagious variant of this virus we have seen. The Delta variant is reported to cause a more severe disease with viral loads rising faster and persisting longer.

It seems pretty clearly we are not out of the woods yet with this pandemic. The virus is just taking a breather with our half way efforts only slowing the virus while it gathers strength. It is fortunate that the US vaccines seem to be effective against these new variants. However, if we don't continue to vaccinate the general population, we are creating selection conditions for the virus to become even more contagious and potentially more deadly.

The US just has too many who don't understand the nature of a pandemic and/or don't care about anyone other than themselves and their silly beliefs that their personal liberties are being trampled. This is a public health emergency. This virus needs to be wiped out before it mutates into even more dangerous forms. Just like typhoid Mary, those who put the all of us at risk should be separated and not allowed to mix with the general public. Otherwise, come next fall we may see another half million die.

--

Rick C.

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On Monday, June 14, 2021 at 9:18:38 PM UTC+10, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
> Seems like this bottom is pretty hard having gone on for nearly two weeks.. The good news is there's no sign of an uptick.
>
> It seems the vaccinations are becoming even more important with the Delta variant spreading in the US. It's now around 10% of the cases and will become the dominant strain in due course being the most contagious variant of this virus we have seen. The Delta variant is reported to cause a more severe disease with viral loads rising faster and persisting longer.
>
> It seems pretty clearly we are not out of the woods yet with this pandemic. The virus is just taking a breather with our half way efforts only slowing the virus while it gathers strength.

The virus is just taking every chance it can get to infect new victims and multiply. Ever time it reproduces it has a new chance to mutate - usually into something less effective, but more infective strains do appear from time to time.

> It is fortunate that the US vaccines seem to be effective against these new variants. However, if we don't continue to vaccinate the general population, we are creating selection conditions for the virus to become even more contagious and potentially more deadly.

The selection conditions as just the same as they've always been - if the virus can find new victims to infect, where it can reproduce and occasionally come up with a new variants it's eventually going to come up with a more infectious strain. There's no selection to make it deadlier, but it can happen just by random chance.
> The US just has too many who don't understand the nature of a pandemic and/or don't care about anyone other than themselves and their silly beliefs that their personal liberties are being trampled. This is a public health emergency. This virus needs to be wiped out before it mutates into even more dangerous forms. Just like typhoid Mary, those who put the all of us at risk should be separated and not allowed to mix with the general public. Otherwise, come next fall we may see another half million die.

The analogy with Typhoid Mary is false - she could host the typhoid bacterium in her gut indefinitely without getting sick. People who are careless about getting infected with Covid-19 are showing the same kind of irresponsibility but don't have the chance to be as dangerous for as long as Typhoid Mary was.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney