Look at this unholy mess near LA:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I84IKGgPlZQ
Almost as bad as Florida.

Miami Beach condemned one atrocity and gave the residents 12 hours to pack their belongings and evacuate. More than a few others have been partially condemned. One aged joke building in Volusia County has rebar rust stains running the entire 5 story height of the building- do ya think their might be corrosion there? Residents from all over are posting video of exposed rebar and cracked columns, losing sleep over a possible imminent collapse, running the local building inspectors ragged.

"that kind of degradation could lead to collapse."

"Buildings don't fall down, ninny. Chicken Little!"

Too funny. The age of mindless alpha male denial is coming to an end.

On 7/3/2021 12:12 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> Look at this unholy mess near LA:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I84IKGgPlZQ Almost as bad as Florida.
>
> Miami Beach condemned one atrocity and gave the residents 12 hours to pack
> their belongings and evacuate. More than a few others have been partially
> condemned. One aged joke building in Volusia County has rebar rust stains
> running the entire 5 story height of the building- do ya think their might
> be corrosion there? Residents from all over are posting video of exposed
> rebar and cracked columns, losing sleep over a possible imminent collapse,
> running the local building inspectors ragged.

What will be interesting is the public's reaction when they discover that
inspectors are largely shielded from liability for their actions. Maybe
some will lose their jobs (or quit) but i doubt you'll see any formal
"charges" brought against even the most "obvious" (in the eyes of the public)
shortfalls.

> "that kind of degradation could lead to collapse."
>
> "Buildings don't fall down, ninny. Chicken Little!"
>
> Too funny. The age of mindless alpha male denial is coming to an end.
>

On Sunday, July 4, 2021 at 7:42:56 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
> On 7/3/2021 12:12 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > Look at this unholy mess near LA:
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I84IKGgPlZQ Almost as bad as Florida.
> >
> > Miami Beach condemned one atrocity and gave the residents 12 hours to pack
> > their belongings and evacuate. More than a few others have been partially
> > condemned. One aged joke building in Volusia County has rebar rust stains
> > running the entire 5 story height of the building- do ya think their might
> > be corrosion there? Residents from all over are posting video of exposed
> > rebar and cracked columns, losing sleep over a possible imminent collapse,
> > running the local building inspectors ragged.
> What will be interesting is the public's reaction when they discover that
> inspectors are largely shielded from liability for their actions. Maybe
> some will lose their jobs (or quit) but i doubt you'll see any formal
> "charges" brought against even the most "obvious" (in the eyes of the public)
> shortfalls.

Most of the developers (and inspectors too) are dead. Perhaps old buildings needs to carry higher insurance policies. The HOA liab insurance will pay this claim, just out of PR. It's not really HOA liab, if the developers were at fault.

On 7/4/2021 7:59 AM, Ed Lee wrote:
> On Sunday, July 4, 2021 at 7:42:56 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
>> On 7/3/2021 12:12 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
>>> Look at this unholy mess near LA:
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I84IKGgPlZQ Almost as bad as Florida.
>>>
>>> Miami Beach condemned one atrocity and gave the residents 12 hours to
>>> pack their belongings and evacuate. More than a few others have been
>>> partially condemned. One aged joke building in Volusia County has rebar
>>> rust stains running the entire 5 story height of the building- do ya
>>> think their might be corrosion there? Residents from all over are
>>> posting video of exposed rebar and cracked columns, losing sleep over a
>>> possible imminent collapse, running the local building inspectors
>>> ragged.
>> What will be interesting is the public's reaction when they discover that
>> inspectors are largely shielded from liability for their actions. Maybe
>> some will lose their jobs (or quit) but i doubt you'll see any formal
>> "charges" brought against even the most "obvious" (in the eyes of the
>> public) shortfalls.
>
> Most of the developers (and inspectors too) are dead. Perhaps old buildings

Inspectors don't just inspect a building when first erected. SOMEONE
inspected these all, recently.

> needs to carry higher insurance policies. The HOA liab insurance will pay
> this claim, just out of PR. It's not really HOA liab, if the developers
> were at fault.

The HOA is the owners. So, the very people who are screwed by these
"structural failures" are the ones who ultimately bear liability for
them.

On Sunday, July 4, 2021 at 8:11:51 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
> On 7/4/2021 7:59 AM, Ed Lee wrote:
> > On Sunday, July 4, 2021 at 7:42:56 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
> >> On 7/3/2021 12:12 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> >>> Look at this unholy mess near LA:
> >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I84IKGgPlZQ Almost as bad as Florida.
> >>>
> >>> Miami Beach condemned one atrocity and gave the residents 12 hours to
> >>> pack their belongings and evacuate. More than a few others have been
> >>> partially condemned. One aged joke building in Volusia County has rebar
> >>> rust stains running the entire 5 story height of the building- do ya
> >>> think their might be corrosion there? Residents from all over are
> >>> posting video of exposed rebar and cracked columns, losing sleep over a
> >>> possible imminent collapse, running the local building inspectors
> >>> ragged.
> >> What will be interesting is the public's reaction when they discover that
> >> inspectors are largely shielded from liability for their actions. Maybe
> >> some will lose their jobs (or quit) but i doubt you'll see any formal
> >> "charges" brought against even the most "obvious" (in the eyes of the
> >> public) shortfalls.
> >
> > Most of the developers (and inspectors too) are dead. Perhaps old buildings
> Inspectors don't just inspect a building when first erected. SOMEONE
> inspected these all, recently.

Follow-up inspectors only look at things out of ordinary. Design issues such as not enough slab thickness, column diameters or rebars are supposed to be resolved by original construction inspectors, whom are all dead by now.

> > needs to carry higher insurance policies. The HOA liab insurance will pay
> > this claim, just out of PR. It's not really HOA liab, if the developers
> > were at fault.
> The HOA is the owners. So, the very people who are screwed by these
> "structural failures" are the ones who ultimately bear liability for
> them.

Current insurance co. will pay the tiny $5M liab insurance. It's good PR, even if they can win in court. In the future, other buildings will have to buy higher general insurance to cover collapsed building.

On 7/4/2021 8:22 AM, Ed Lee wrote:
> On Sunday, July 4, 2021 at 8:11:51 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
>> On 7/4/2021 7:59 AM, Ed Lee wrote:
>>> On Sunday, July 4, 2021 at 7:42:56 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
>>>> On 7/3/2021 12:12 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
>>>>> Look at this unholy mess near LA:
>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I84IKGgPlZQ Almost as bad as
>>>>> Florida.
>>>>>
>>>>> Miami Beach condemned one atrocity and gave the residents 12 hours
>>>>> to pack their belongings and evacuate. More than a few others have
>>>>> been partially condemned. One aged joke building in Volusia County
>>>>> has rebar rust stains running the entire 5 story height of the
>>>>> building- do ya think their might be corrosion there? Residents from
>>>>> all over are posting video of exposed rebar and cracked columns,
>>>>> losing sleep over a possible imminent collapse, running the local
>>>>> building inspectors ragged.
>>>> What will be interesting is the public's reaction when they discover
>>>> that inspectors are largely shielded from liability for their actions.
>>>> Maybe some will lose their jobs (or quit) but i doubt you'll see any
>>>> formal "charges" brought against even the most "obvious" (in the eyes
>>>> of the public) shortfalls.
>>>
>>> Most of the developers (and inspectors too) are dead. Perhaps old
>>> buildings
>> Inspectors don't just inspect a building when first erected. SOMEONE
>> inspected these all, recently.
>
> Follow-up inspectors only look at things out of ordinary. Design issues
> such as not enough slab thickness, column diameters or rebars are supposed
> to be resolved by original construction inspectors, whom are all dead by
> now.

I suspect we're going to find that these aren't "original design" flaws
(or, if so, will still have been compliant with the Code in effect at
the time). Instead, these are going to be "maintenance" issues...
problems that weren't identified by subsequent inspections (some of
which will have been conducted at the behest of *insurers*).

>>> needs to carry higher insurance policies. The HOA liab insurance will
>>> pay this claim, just out of PR. It's not really HOA liab, if the
>>> developers were at fault.
>> The HOA is the owners. So, the very people who are screwed by these
>> "structural failures" are the ones who ultimately bear liability for
>> them.
>
> Current insurance co. will pay the tiny $5M liab insurance. It's good PR,
> even if they can win in court. In the future, other buildings will have to
> buy higher general insurance to cover collapsed building.

Claims will easily exceed the coverage purchased by the HOAs.
What value 100+ deaths?

Ed Lee wrote:
> On Sunday, July 4, 2021 at 8:11:51 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
>> On 7/4/2021 7:59 AM, Ed Lee wrote:
>>> On Sunday, July 4, 2021 at 7:42:56 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
>>>> On 7/3/2021 12:12 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
>>>>> Look at this unholy mess near LA:
>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I84IKGgPlZQ Almost as bad as
>>>>> Florida.
>>>>>
>>>>> Miami Beach condemned one atrocity and gave the residents 12
>>>>> hours to pack their belongings and evacuate. More than a few
>>>>> others have been partially condemned. One aged joke building
>>>>> in Volusia County has rebar rust stains running the entire 5
>>>>> story height of the building- do ya think their might be
>>>>> corrosion there? Residents from all over are posting video of
>>>>> exposed rebar and cracked columns, losing sleep over a
>>>>> possible imminent collapse, running the local building
>>>>> inspectors ragged.
>>>> What will be interesting is the public's reaction when they
>>>> discover that inspectors are largely shielded from liability
>>>> for their actions. Maybe some will lose their jobs (or quit)
>>>> but i doubt you'll see any formal "charges" brought against
>>>> even the most "obvious" (in the eyes of the public)
>>>> shortfalls.
>>>
>>> Most of the developers (and inspectors too) are dead. Perhaps old
>>> buildings
>> Inspectors don't just inspect a building when first erected.
>> SOMEONE inspected these all, recently.
>
> Follow-up inspectors only look at things out of ordinary. Design
> issues such as not enough slab thickness, column diameters or rebars
> are supposed to be resolved by original construction inspectors,
> whom are all dead by now.
>
>>> needs to carry higher insurance policies. The HOA liab insurance
>>> will pay this claim, just out of PR. It's not really HOA liab,
>>> if the developers were at fault.
>> The HOA is the owners. So, the very people who are screwed by
>> these "structural failures" are the ones who ultimately bear
>> liability for them.
>
> Current insurance co. will pay the tiny $5M liab insurance. It's
> good PR, even if they can win in court. In the future, other
> buildings will have to buy higher general insurance to cover
> collapsed building.
>

Given its age and location, the Champlain South property was probably
worth more as a vacant lot than as a building anyway, so the survivors
should eventually come out OK (financially at least).

I saw one report that the HOA insurance had a limit of $1M per
occurrence, $2M total, and that the IC had pointed out that one building
falling down is one occurrence. Dunno if that's true.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

On Sunday, July 4, 2021 at 9:20:16 AM UTC-7, Phil Hobbs wrote:
> Ed Lee wrote:
> > On Sunday, July 4, 2021 at 8:11:51 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
> >> On 7/4/2021 7:59 AM, Ed Lee wrote:
> >>> On Sunday, July 4, 2021 at 7:42:56 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
> >>>> On 7/3/2021 12:12 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> >>>>> Look at this unholy mess near LA:
> >>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I84IKGgPlZQ Almost as bad as
> >>>>> Florida.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Miami Beach condemned one atrocity and gave the residents 12
> >>>>> hours to pack their belongings and evacuate. More than a few
> >>>>> others have been partially condemned. One aged joke building
> >>>>> in Volusia County has rebar rust stains running the entire 5
> >>>>> story height of the building- do ya think their might be
> >>>>> corrosion there? Residents from all over are posting video of
> >>>>> exposed rebar and cracked columns, losing sleep over a
> >>>>> possible imminent collapse, running the local building
> >>>>> inspectors ragged.
> >>>> What will be interesting is the public's reaction when they
> >>>> discover that inspectors are largely shielded from liability
> >>>> for their actions. Maybe some will lose their jobs (or quit)
> >>>> but i doubt you'll see any formal "charges" brought against
> >>>> even the most "obvious" (in the eyes of the public)
> >>>> shortfalls.
> >>>
> >>> Most of the developers (and inspectors too) are dead. Perhaps old
> >>> buildings
> >> Inspectors don't just inspect a building when first erected.
> >> SOMEONE inspected these all, recently.
> >
> > Follow-up inspectors only look at things out of ordinary. Design
> > issues such as not enough slab thickness, column diameters or rebars
> > are supposed to be resolved by original construction inspectors,
> > whom are all dead by now.
> >
> >>> needs to carry higher insurance policies. The HOA liab insurance
> >>> will pay this claim, just out of PR. It's not really HOA liab,
> >>> if the developers were at fault.
> >> The HOA is the owners. So, the very people who are screwed by
> >> these "structural failures" are the ones who ultimately bear
> >> liability for them.
> >
> > Current insurance co. will pay the tiny $5M liab insurance. It's
> > good PR, even if they can win in court. In the future, other
> > buildings will have to buy higher general insurance to cover
> > collapsed building.
> >
> Given its age and location, the Champlain South property was probably
> worth more as a vacant lot than as a building anyway, so the survivors
> should eventually come out OK (financially at least).
>
> I saw one report that the HOA insurance had a limit of $1M per
> occurrence, $2M total, and that the IC had pointed out that one building
> falling down is one occurrence. Dunno if that's true.

That's why they went after the liab. ins., which is $5M. Some equivalent buildings carry $25M.

On Sunday, July 4, 2021 at 11:36:46 AM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
> On 7/4/2021 8:22 AM, Ed Lee wrote:
> > On Sunday, July 4, 2021 at 8:11:51 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
> >> On 7/4/2021 7:59 AM, Ed Lee wrote:
> >>> On Sunday, July 4, 2021 at 7:42:56 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
> >>>> On 7/3/2021 12:12 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> >>>>> Look at this unholy mess near LA:
> >>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I84IKGgPlZQ Almost as bad as
> >>>>> Florida.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Miami Beach condemned one atrocity and gave the residents 12 hours
> >>>>> to pack their belongings and evacuate. More than a few others have
> >>>>> been partially condemned. One aged joke building in Volusia County
> >>>>> has rebar rust stains running the entire 5 story height of the
> >>>>> building- do ya think their might be corrosion there? Residents from
> >>>>> all over are posting video of exposed rebar and cracked columns,
> >>>>> losing sleep over a possible imminent collapse, running the local
> >>>>> building inspectors ragged.
> >>>> What will be interesting is the public's reaction when they discover
> >>>> that inspectors are largely shielded from liability for their actions.
> >>>> Maybe some will lose their jobs (or quit) but i doubt you'll see any
> >>>> formal "charges" brought against even the most "obvious" (in the eyes
> >>>> of the public) shortfalls.
> >>>
> >>> Most of the developers (and inspectors too) are dead. Perhaps old
> >>> buildings
> >> Inspectors don't just inspect a building when first erected. SOMEONE
> >> inspected these all, recently.
> >
> > Follow-up inspectors only look at things out of ordinary. Design issues
> > such as not enough slab thickness, column diameters or rebars are supposed
> > to be resolved by original construction inspectors, whom are all dead by
> > now.
> I suspect we're going to find that these aren't "original design" flaws
> (or, if so, will still have been compliant with the Code in effect at
> the time). Instead, these are going to be "maintenance" issues...
> problems that weren't identified by subsequent inspections (some of
> which will have been conducted at the behest of *insurers*).
> >>> needs to carry higher insurance policies. The HOA liab insurance will
> >>> pay this claim, just out of PR. It's not really HOA liab, if the
> >>> developers were at fault.
> >> The HOA is the owners. So, the very people who are screwed by these
> >> "structural failures" are the ones who ultimately bear liability for
> >> them.
> >
> > Current insurance co. will pay the tiny $5M liab insurance. It's good PR,
> > even if they can win in court. In the future, other buildings will have to
> > buy higher general insurance to cover collapsed building.
> Claims will easily exceed the coverage purchased by the HOAs.
> What value 100+ deaths?

Florida is a comparative negligence state, meaning the award to the claimant is reduced in proportion to their part in the loss. Not doing anything after three full years of receiving notice of major structural damage, pretty much makes the condo 100% at fault for the collapse. The insurance industry is not a charity, and fair is fair, the whole mess is on the condo board and the people who elected them.

On 7/4/2021 3:27 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> Florida is a comparative negligence state, meaning the award to the claimant
> is reduced in proportion to their part in the loss. Not doing anything after
> three full years of receiving notice of major structural damage, pretty much
> makes the condo 100% at fault for the collapse. The insurance industry is
> not a charity, and fair is fair, the whole mess is on the condo board and
> the people who elected them.

"Condos All Over America" likely includes places OTHER THAN Florida, no?

What will be interesting is the public's reaction when they
discover that inspectors are largely shielded from liability for
their actions. Maybe some will lose their jobs (or quit) but i
doubt you'll see any formal "charges" brought against even the
most "obvious" (in the eyes of the public) shortfalls.

People tend to think they are "protected" by rules, regulations,
etc. AND that there is an implied liability on the part of the party
that is making these "certifications". My point (above) is that
there is no recourse against the entities that were supposed to
be assuring/enforcing these regulations.

Like suing the weather man cuz it rained despite his forecast for
clear skies!

On Sunday, July 4, 2021 at 3:27:33 PM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> On Sunday, July 4, 2021 at 11:36:46 AM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
> > On 7/4/2021 8:22 AM, Ed Lee wrote:
> > > On Sunday, July 4, 2021 at 8:11:51 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
> > >> On 7/4/2021 7:59 AM, Ed Lee wrote:
> > >>> On Sunday, July 4, 2021 at 7:42:56 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
> > >>>> On 7/3/2021 12:12 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > >>>>> Look at this unholy mess near LA:
> > >>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I84IKGgPlZQ Almost as bad as
> > >>>>> Florida.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Miami Beach condemned one atrocity and gave the residents 12 hours
> > >>>>> to pack their belongings and evacuate. More than a few others have
> > >>>>> been partially condemned. One aged joke building in Volusia County
> > >>>>> has rebar rust stains running the entire 5 story height of the
> > >>>>> building- do ya think their might be corrosion there? Residents from
> > >>>>> all over are posting video of exposed rebar and cracked columns,
> > >>>>> losing sleep over a possible imminent collapse, running the local
> > >>>>> building inspectors ragged.
> > >>>> What will be interesting is the public's reaction when they discover
> > >>>> that inspectors are largely shielded from liability for their actions.
> > >>>> Maybe some will lose their jobs (or quit) but i doubt you'll see any
> > >>>> formal "charges" brought against even the most "obvious" (in the eyes
> > >>>> of the public) shortfalls.
> > >>>
> > >>> Most of the developers (and inspectors too) are dead. Perhaps old
> > >>> buildings
> > >> Inspectors don't just inspect a building when first erected. SOMEONE
> > >> inspected these all, recently.
> > >
> > > Follow-up inspectors only look at things out of ordinary. Design issues
> > > such as not enough slab thickness, column diameters or rebars are supposed
> > > to be resolved by original construction inspectors, whom are all dead by
> > > now.
> > I suspect we're going to find that these aren't "original design" flaws
> > (or, if so, will still have been compliant with the Code in effect at
> > the time). Instead, these are going to be "maintenance" issues...
> > problems that weren't identified by subsequent inspections (some of
> > which will have been conducted at the behest of *insurers*).
> > >>> needs to carry higher insurance policies. The HOA liab insurance will
> > >>> pay this claim, just out of PR. It's not really HOA liab, if the
> > >>> developers were at fault.
> > >> The HOA is the owners. So, the very people who are screwed by these
> > >> "structural failures" are the ones who ultimately bear liability for
> > >> them.
> > >
> > > Current insurance co. will pay the tiny $5M liab insurance. It's good PR,
> > > even if they can win in court. In the future, other buildings will have to
> > > buy higher general insurance to cover collapsed building.
> > Claims will easily exceed the coverage purchased by the HOAs.
> > What value 100+ deaths?
> Florida is a comparative negligence state, meaning the award to the claimant is reduced in proportion to their part in the loss. Not doing anything after three full years of receiving notice of major structural damage, pretty much makes the condo 100% at fault for the collapse. The insurance industry is not a charity, and fair is fair, the whole mess is on the condo board and the people who elected them.

Well, we still have to wait for the final words, after they reconstruct the bits of metal and concrete. The video you linked show that the concrete slab failed before the columns, but why and how? The notice reported structural damages in columns that sound more serious, as with all reports looking for repair work, but no indication of immediate collapse. HOA needs to go through the motion of owner approval and funding. If the owners refused to fund the repairs, HOA can't do much. If it's the owners' (and benefiters') fault, how can they receive compensation as a result of their fault? For example, most life insurance don't cover suicide.

Insurance companies will be reviewing their liab. policy. If it includes construction defects, premiums will be much higher. If the design failed to account for load margin with corrosion, it's also construction defect. They have been building concrete buildings in FL for decades, they should know rebar corrode.

On Sunday, July 4, 2021 at 10:42:56 AM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
> On 7/3/2021 12:12 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > Look at this unholy mess near LA:
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I84IKGgPlZQ Almost as bad as Florida.
> >
> > Miami Beach condemned one atrocity and gave the residents 12 hours to pack
> > their belongings and evacuate. More than a few others have been partially
> > condemned. One aged joke building in Volusia County has rebar rust stains
> > running the entire 5 story height of the building- do ya think their might
> > be corrosion there? Residents from all over are posting video of exposed
> > rebar and cracked columns, losing sleep over a possible imminent collapse,
> > running the local building inspectors ragged.
> What will be interesting is the public's reaction when they discover that
> inspectors are largely shielded from liability for their actions. Maybe
> some will lose their jobs (or quit) but i doubt you'll see any formal
> "charges" brought against even the most "obvious" (in the eyes of the public)
> shortfalls.
> > "that kind of degradation could lead to collapse."
> >
> > "Buildings don't fall down, ninny. Chicken Little!"
> >
> > Too funny. The age of mindless alpha male denial is coming to an end.
> >

This looks like an 80 year old building. The inspectors gave the residents 5 minutes to get out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyrQ3US7H-4

On 7/5/2021 6:18 AM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> On Sunday, July 4, 2021 at 10:42:56 AM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
>> On 7/3/2021 12:12 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
>>> Look at this unholy mess near LA:
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I84IKGgPlZQ Almost as bad as Florida.
>>>
>>> Miami Beach condemned one atrocity and gave the residents 12 hours to pack
>>> their belongings and evacuate. More than a few others have been partially
>>> condemned. One aged joke building in Volusia County has rebar rust stains
>>> running the entire 5 story height of the building- do ya think their might
>>> be corrosion there? Residents from all over are posting video of exposed
>>> rebar and cracked columns, losing sleep over a possible imminent collapse,
>>> running the local building inspectors ragged.
>> What will be interesting is the public's reaction when they discover that
>> inspectors are largely shielded from liability for their actions. Maybe
>> some will lose their jobs (or quit) but i doubt you'll see any formal
>> "charges" brought against even the most "obvious" (in the eyes of the public)
>> shortfalls.
>>> "that kind of degradation could lead to collapse."
>>>
>>> "Buildings don't fall down, ninny. Chicken Little!"
>>>
>>> Too funny. The age of mindless alpha male denial is coming to an end.
>>>
>
> This looks like an 80 year old building. The inspectors gave the residents 5 minutes to get out.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyrQ3US7H-4

Doesn't it make you wonder how they knew *5* was the right number -- and
not 50 or 5 hrs?

And, how they were able to determine that it should be 5 *now* -- and not
a week/day/month ago?

On Monday, July 5, 2021 at 9:52:11 AM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
> On 7/5/2021 6:18 AM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > On Sunday, July 4, 2021 at 10:42:56 AM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
> >> On 7/3/2021 12:12 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> >>> Look at this unholy mess near LA:
> >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I84IKGgPlZQ Almost as bad as Florida.
> >>>
> >>> Miami Beach condemned one atrocity and gave the residents 12 hours to pack
> >>> their belongings and evacuate. More than a few others have been partially
> >>> condemned. One aged joke building in Volusia County has rebar rust stains
> >>> running the entire 5 story height of the building- do ya think their might
> >>> be corrosion there? Residents from all over are posting video of exposed
> >>> rebar and cracked columns, losing sleep over a possible imminent collapse,
> >>> running the local building inspectors ragged.
> >> What will be interesting is the public's reaction when they discover that
> >> inspectors are largely shielded from liability for their actions. Maybe
> >> some will lose their jobs (or quit) but i doubt you'll see any formal
> >> "charges" brought against even the most "obvious" (in the eyes of the public)
> >> shortfalls.
> >>> "that kind of degradation could lead to collapse."
> >>>
> >>> "Buildings don't fall down, ninny. Chicken Little!"
> >>>
> >>> Too funny. The age of mindless alpha male denial is coming to an end.
> >>>
> >
> > This looks like an 80 year old building. The inspectors gave the residents 5 minutes to get out.
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyrQ3US7H-4
> Doesn't it make you wonder how they knew *5* was the right number -- and
> not 50 or 5 hrs?
>
> And, how they were able to determine that it should be 5 *now* -- and not
> a week/day/month ago?

Drawing the line vs. not drawing the line. If you draw a line, how do you justify that particular line? If you can't justify any particular line to draw, do just not draw any line and ignore the issue?

We encounter this in virtually every line we draw in life. There is almost never a proper justification for where to draw a line. It's almost always a matter of white fading to black over a range.

--

Rick C.

- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Sat, 3 Jul 2021 12:12:46 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
<bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

>Look at this unholy mess near LA:
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I84IKGgPlZQ
>Almost as bad as Florida.
>
>Miami Beach condemned one atrocity and gave the residents 12 hours to pack their belongings and evacuate. More than a few others have been partially condemned. One aged joke building in Volusia County has rebar rust stains running the entire 5 story height of the building- do ya think their might be corrosion there? Residents from all over are posting video of exposed rebar and cracked columns, losing sleep over a possible imminent collapse, running the local building inspectors ragged.
>
>"that kind of degradation could lead to collapse."
>
>"Buildings don't fall down, ninny. Chicken Little!"
>
>Too funny. The age of mindless alpha male denial is coming to an end.

"Scared to death" is a common theme these days. The very concept is
absurd.

Hundreds of years ago, when death was far more probable, people
weren't so frightened.

Your chances of dying in a building collapse in the USA is parts per
million. But people still drive cars and smoke substances and get fat
and lazy.

The age of mindless wussy male neurotics is here.

--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

The best designs are necessarily accidental.

In article <qcc6egtht8l8amiik1egp6vmiagj6bkro4@4ax.com>,
jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com says...
>
> Your chances of dying in a building collapse in the USA is parts per
> million. But people still drive cars and smoke substances and get fat
> and lazy.
>
> The age of mindless wussy male neurotics is here.
>
>
>
>

It always amazes me that around 35,000 people are killed in cars every
year and hard telling how many are injured enought to spend one or more
nights in the hospital, no one is interisted in that.

Let just one building a year with around 250 people fall down and it
makes the news for weeks.

On 7/5/2021 9:40 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
> It always amazes me that around 35,000 people are killed in cars every
> year and hard telling how many are injured enought to spend one or more
> nights in the hospital, no one is interisted in that.
>
> Let just one building a year with around 250 people fall down and it
> makes the news for weeks.

The relative frequencies of the events -- and the intuitive
expectations that follow -- is likely a large factor.

Look at how many die to heart attack, cancer, obesity-related issues,
gun violence, etc. Yet, we don't do anything about any of THOSE things.

OTOH, think of how INFREQUENTLY planes fall out of the sky or buildings
fall down...

Know anyone who died as the result of a lightning strike? Or,
bit of space debris falling on them while they slept?

mandag den 5. juli 2021 kl. 18.50.14 UTC+2 skrev Don Y:
> On 7/5/2021 9:40 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
> > It always amazes me that around 35,000 people are killed in cars every
> > year and hard telling how many are injured enought to spend one or more
> > nights in the hospital, no one is interisted in that.
> >
> > Let just one building a year with around 250 people fall down and it
> > makes the news for weeks.
> The relative frequencies of the events -- and the intuitive
> expectations that follow -- is likely a large factor.
>
> Look at how many die to heart attack, cancer, obesity-related issues,
> gun violence, etc. Yet, we don't do anything about any of THOSE things.
>
> OTOH, think of how INFREQUENTLY planes fall out of the sky or buildings
> fall down...
>
> Know anyone who died as the result of a lightning strike? Or,
> bit of space debris falling on them while they slept?

afaik noone has ever been killed by space debris and only one known case of someone being hit ;)

On 7/5/2021 9:57 AM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
> mandag den 5. juli 2021 kl. 18.50.14 UTC+2 skrev Don Y:
>> On 7/5/2021 9:40 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
>>> It always amazes me that around 35,000 people are killed in cars every
>>> year and hard telling how many are injured enought to spend one or more
>>> nights in the hospital, no one is interisted in that.
>>>
>>> Let just one building a year with around 250 people fall down and it
>>> makes the news for weeks.
>> The relative frequencies of the events -- and the intuitive
>> expectations that follow -- is likely a large factor.
>>
>> Look at how many die to heart attack, cancer, obesity-related issues,
>> gun violence, etc. Yet, we don't do anything about any of THOSE things.
>>
>> OTOH, think of how INFREQUENTLY planes fall out of the sky or buildings
>> fall down...
>>
>> Know anyone who died as the result of a lightning strike? Or,
>> bit of space debris falling on them while they slept?
>
> afaik noone has ever been killed by space debris and only one known case of someone being hit ;)

It's relative unlikeliness is why it would "make headlines".
Yet another bloke grasping his chest and dying from heart attack
would be "ho-hum"...

On Monday, July 5, 2021 at 10:16:34 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
> On 7/5/2021 9:57 AM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
> > mandag den 5. juli 2021 kl. 18.50.14 UTC+2 skrev Don Y:
> >> On 7/5/2021 9:40 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
> >>> It always amazes me that around 35,000 people are killed in cars every
> >>> year and hard telling how many are injured enought to spend one or more
> >>> nights in the hospital, no one is interisted in that.
> >>>
> >>> Let just one building a year with around 250 people fall down and it
> >>> makes the news for weeks.
> >> The relative frequencies of the events -- and the intuitive
> >> expectations that follow -- is likely a large factor.
> >>
> >> Look at how many die to heart attack, cancer, obesity-related issues,
> >> gun violence, etc. Yet, we don't do anything about any of THOSE things.
> >>
> >> OTOH, think of how INFREQUENTLY planes fall out of the sky or buildings
> >> fall down...
> >>
> >> Know anyone who died as the result of a lightning strike? Or,
> >> bit of space debris falling on them while they slept?
> >
> > afaik noone has ever been killed by space debris and only one known case of someone being hit ;)
> It's relative unlikeliness is why it would "make headlines".

Concrete crack and rebar rust all the time. They just don't fall apart completely and bring the whole building down with it.

There are now reports of insufficient rebars at the slab/column junctions and total separation of concrete from rebar. All pointing to potential construction defects.

On 7/5/2021 10:24 AM, Ed Lee wrote:
>> It's relative unlikeliness is why it would "make headlines".
>
> Concrete crack and rebar rust all the time. They just don't fall apart
> completely and bring the whole building down with it.

The goal is for this to be NOTICED and ACTED UPON before that
happens. Just like noticing cracks in an engine turbine on
an aircraft BEFORE it flies apart in flight!

> There are now reports of insufficient rebars at the slab/column junctions
> and total separation of concrete from rebar. All pointing to potential
> construction defects.

That reporting appears to be "preliminary". No one has been able
to confirm that there aren't bars that were sheared off at the edges
of the columns.

The media are looking for things to chat about as they gain ears/eyes
NOW that they'll never have to "apologize to", later (when more details
are in evidence).

> Insurance companies will be reviewing their liab. policy. If it includes construction defects, premiums will be much higher. If the design failed to account for load margin with corrosion, it's also construction defect. They have been building concrete buildings in FL for decades, they should know rebar corrode.

Stainless rebar is available. But that is a fairly new thing.

Dan

dcaster@krl.org wrote:
>
>> Insurance companies will be reviewing their liab. policy. If it includes construction defects, premiums will be much higher. If the design failed to account for load margin with corrosion, it's also construction defect. They have been building concrete buildings in FL for decades, they should know rebar corrode.
>
> Stainless rebar is available. But that is a fairly new thing.
>
> Dan
>

Chloride ion from salt eats the concrete irrespective of the condition
of the steel. Concrete breakwaters and so on are made from very
low-porosity concrete, which slows that process down by a lot, but
AFAICT nobody builds buildings with that stuff.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

On Monday, July 5, 2021 at 7:21:37 PM UTC-7, Phil Hobbs wrote:
> dca...@krl.org wrote:
> >
> >> Insurance companies will be reviewing their liab. policy. If it includes construction defects, premiums will be much higher. If the design failed to account for load margin with corrosion, it's also construction defect. They have been building concrete buildings in FL for decades, they should know rebar corrode.
> >
> > Stainless rebar is available. But that is a fairly new thing.
> >
> > Dan
> >
> Chloride ion from salt eats the concrete irrespective of the condition
> of the steel. Concrete breakwaters and so on are made from very
> low-porosity concrete, which slows that process down by a lot, but
> AFAICT nobody builds buildings with that stuff.

Not sure if the reported water damages are from seawater, or just rain, or from the pool. The building doesn't seem to be too close to the sea.

Ed Lee wrote:
> On Monday, July 5, 2021 at 7:21:37 PM UTC-7, Phil Hobbs wrote:
>> dca...@krl.org wrote:
>>>
>>>> Insurance companies will be reviewing their liab. policy. If it
>>>> includes construction defects, premiums will be much higher. If
>>>> the design failed to account for load margin with corrosion,
>>>> it's also construction defect. They have been building concrete
>>>> buildings in FL for decades, they should know rebar corrode.
>>>
>>> Stainless rebar is available. But that is a fairly new thing.
>>>
>>> Dan
>>>
>> Chloride ion from salt eats the concrete irrespective of the
>> condition of the steel. Concrete breakwaters and so on are made
>> from very low-porosity concrete, which slows that process down by a
>> lot, but AFAICT nobody builds buildings with that stuff.
>
> Not sure if the reported water damages are from seawater, or just
> rain, or from the pool. The building doesn't seem to be too close to
> the sea.
>

The former Champlain South building was reported to have chronic
saltwater flooding in the parking garage. I sort of doubt there was a
lot of salt water on the pool deck.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com