On Monday, July 5, 2021 at 7:54:29 PM UTC-7, Phil Hobbs wrote:
> Ed Lee wrote:
> > On Monday, July 5, 2021 at 7:21:37 PM UTC-7, Phil Hobbs wrote:
> >> dca...@krl.org wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Insurance companies will be reviewing their liab. policy. If it
> >>>> includes construction defects, premiums will be much higher. If
> >>>> the design failed to account for load margin with corrosion,
> >>>> it's also construction defect. They have been building concrete
> >>>> buildings in FL for decades, they should know rebar corrode.
> >>>
> >>> Stainless rebar is available. But that is a fairly new thing.
> >>>
> >>> Dan
> >>>
> >> Chloride ion from salt eats the concrete irrespective of the
> >> condition of the steel. Concrete breakwaters and so on are made
> >> from very low-porosity concrete, which slows that process down by a
> >> lot, but AFAICT nobody builds buildings with that stuff.
> >
> > Not sure if the reported water damages are from seawater, or just
> > rain, or from the pool. The building doesn't seem to be too close to
> > the sea.
> >
> The former Champlain South building was reported to have chronic
> saltwater flooding in the parking garage. I sort of doubt there was a
> lot of salt water on the pool deck.

They expected more underground damages when they dig it up for repair, but the visible damages were mostly above-ground.

On Monday, July 5, 2021 at 12:30:48 PM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology..com wrote:
> On Sat, 3 Jul 2021 12:12:46 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
> <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Look at this unholy mess near LA:
> >https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I84IKGgPlZQ
> >Almost as bad as Florida.
> >
> >Miami Beach condemned one atrocity and gave the residents 12 hours to pack their belongings and evacuate. More than a few others have been partially condemned. One aged joke building in Volusia County has rebar rust stains running the entire 5 story height of the building- do ya think their might be corrosion there? Residents from all over are posting video of exposed rebar and cracked columns, losing sleep over a possible imminent collapse, running the local building inspectors ragged.
> >
> >"that kind of degradation could lead to collapse."
> >
> >"Buildings don't fall down, ninny. Chicken Little!"
> >
> >Too funny. The age of mindless alpha male denial is coming to an end.
> "Scared to death" is a common theme these days. The very concept is
> absurd.
>
> Hundreds of years ago, when death was far more probable, people
> weren't so frightened.
>
> Your chances of dying in a building collapse in the USA is parts per
> million. But people still drive cars and smoke substances and get fat
> and lazy.
>
> The age of mindless wussy male neurotics is here.
>

Surfside catastrophe raises concerns about San Francisco's sinking Millennium Tower
https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/05/us/san-francisco-millennium-tower-sinking/index.html

> --
>
> John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
>
> The best designs are necessarily accidental.

On Monday, July 5, 2021 at 1:24:09 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
> On Monday, July 5, 2021 at 10:16:34 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
> > On 7/5/2021 9:57 AM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
> > > mandag den 5. juli 2021 kl. 18.50.14 UTC+2 skrev Don Y:
> > >> On 7/5/2021 9:40 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
> > >>> It always amazes me that around 35,000 people are killed in cars every
> > >>> year and hard telling how many are injured enought to spend one or more
> > >>> nights in the hospital, no one is interisted in that.
> > >>>
> > >>> Let just one building a year with around 250 people fall down and it
> > >>> makes the news for weeks.
> > >> The relative frequencies of the events -- and the intuitive
> > >> expectations that follow -- is likely a large factor.
> > >>
> > >> Look at how many die to heart attack, cancer, obesity-related issues,
> > >> gun violence, etc. Yet, we don't do anything about any of THOSE things.
> > >>
> > >> OTOH, think of how INFREQUENTLY planes fall out of the sky or buildings
> > >> fall down...
> > >>
> > >> Know anyone who died as the result of a lightning strike? Or,
> > >> bit of space debris falling on them while they slept?
> > >
> > > afaik noone has ever been killed by space debris and only one known case of someone being hit ;)
> > It's relative unlikeliness is why it would "make headlines".
> Concrete crack and rebar rust all the time. They just don't fall apart completely and bring the whole building down with it.
>
> There are now reports of insufficient rebars at the slab/column junctions and total separation of concrete from rebar. All pointing to potential construction defects.

There are no such reports. That bit of misinformation comes from Kilsheimer speculatively talking to NYT reporters, none of it is fact. The forensics evidence is buried under 40 ft of rubble and is therefore unavailable as yet. And when they get in the vicinity of the broken slab and critical 3-column failure that caused the south facade to collapse, they need to treat it as an archeological dig with kid gloves.
From what I see, the building was constructed to specification and it was a job well done. The design had a major flaw in water management at the pool deck, and the maintenance was bad.

On Tuesday, July 6, 2021 at 8:28:19 AM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> On Monday, July 5, 2021 at 1:24:09 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
> > On Monday, July 5, 2021 at 10:16:34 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
> > > On 7/5/2021 9:57 AM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
> > > > mandag den 5. juli 2021 kl. 18.50.14 UTC+2 skrev Don Y:
> > > >> On 7/5/2021 9:40 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
> > > >>> It always amazes me that around 35,000 people are killed in cars every
> > > >>> year and hard telling how many are injured enought to spend one or more
> > > >>> nights in the hospital, no one is interisted in that.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Let just one building a year with around 250 people fall down and it
> > > >>> makes the news for weeks.
> > > >> The relative frequencies of the events -- and the intuitive
> > > >> expectations that follow -- is likely a large factor.
> > > >>
> > > >> Look at how many die to heart attack, cancer, obesity-related issues,
> > > >> gun violence, etc. Yet, we don't do anything about any of THOSE things.
> > > >>
> > > >> OTOH, think of how INFREQUENTLY planes fall out of the sky or buildings
> > > >> fall down...
> > > >>
> > > >> Know anyone who died as the result of a lightning strike? Or,
> > > >> bit of space debris falling on them while they slept?
> > > >
> > > > afaik noone has ever been killed by space debris and only one known case of someone being hit ;)
> > > It's relative unlikeliness is why it would "make headlines".
> > Concrete crack and rebar rust all the time. They just don't fall apart completely and bring the whole building down with it.
> >
> > There are now reports of insufficient rebars at the slab/column junctions and total separation of concrete from rebar. All pointing to potential construction defects.
> There are no such reports. That bit of misinformation comes from Kilsheimer speculatively talking to NYT reporters, none of it is fact. The forensics evidence is buried under 40 ft of rubble and is therefore unavailable as yet. And when they get in the vicinity of the broken slab and critical 3-column failure that caused the south facade to collapse, they need to treat it as an archeological dig with kid gloves.
> From what I see, the building was constructed to specification and it was a job well done. The design had a major flaw in water management at the pool deck, and the maintenance was bad.

From the picture of the columns still standing, there are two rebars sticking out. The plan called for four, in the middle of the column. The outer two rebar might be placed too far out of the column and sheared off. So, technically, only two supporting the slab/column join.

The columns seem to broke off at the third floor, still intact at the second (pool) slab.

On Tue, 6 Jul 2021 08:09:22 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
<bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, July 5, 2021 at 12:30:48 PM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>> On Sat, 3 Jul 2021 12:12:46 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
>> <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Look at this unholy mess near LA:
>> >https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I84IKGgPlZQ
>> >Almost as bad as Florida.
>> >
>> >Miami Beach condemned one atrocity and gave the residents 12 hours to pack their belongings and evacuate. More than a few others have been partially condemned. One aged joke building in Volusia County has rebar rust stains running the entire 5 story height of the building- do ya think their might be corrosion there? Residents from all over are posting video of exposed rebar and cracked columns, losing sleep over a possible imminent collapse, running the local building inspectors ragged.
>> >
>> >"that kind of degradation could lead to collapse."
>> >
>> >"Buildings don't fall down, ninny. Chicken Little!"
>> >
>> >Too funny. The age of mindless alpha male denial is coming to an end.
>> "Scared to death" is a common theme these days. The very concept is
>> absurd.
>>
>> Hundreds of years ago, when death was far more probable, people
>> weren't so frightened.
>>
>> Your chances of dying in a building collapse in the USA is parts per
>> million. But people still drive cars and smoke substances and get fat
>> and lazy.
>>
>> The age of mindless wussy male neurotics is here.
>>
>
>Surfside catastrophe raises concerns about San Francisco's sinking Millennium Tower
>https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/05/us/san-francisco-millennium-tower-sinking/index.html

It's just tilting a little. The big concern is how ugly it is.
Unfortunately, it will be fixed.

--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

The best designs are necessarily accidental.

On Tuesday, July 6, 2021 at 11:36:09 AM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 6, 2021 at 8:28:19 AM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > On Monday, July 5, 2021 at 1:24:09 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
> > > On Monday, July 5, 2021 at 10:16:34 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
> > > > On 7/5/2021 9:57 AM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
> > > > > mandag den 5. juli 2021 kl. 18.50.14 UTC+2 skrev Don Y:
> > > > >> On 7/5/2021 9:40 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
> > > > >>> It always amazes me that around 35,000 people are killed in cars every
> > > > >>> year and hard telling how many are injured enought to spend one or more
> > > > >>> nights in the hospital, no one is interisted in that.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Let just one building a year with around 250 people fall down and it
> > > > >>> makes the news for weeks.
> > > > >> The relative frequencies of the events -- and the intuitive
> > > > >> expectations that follow -- is likely a large factor.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Look at how many die to heart attack, cancer, obesity-related issues,
> > > > >> gun violence, etc. Yet, we don't do anything about any of THOSE things.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> OTOH, think of how INFREQUENTLY planes fall out of the sky or buildings
> > > > >> fall down...
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Know anyone who died as the result of a lightning strike? Or,
> > > > >> bit of space debris falling on them while they slept?
> > > > >
> > > > > afaik noone has ever been killed by space debris and only one known case of someone being hit ;)
> > > > It's relative unlikeliness is why it would "make headlines".
> > > Concrete crack and rebar rust all the time. They just don't fall apart completely and bring the whole building down with it.
> > >
> > > There are now reports of insufficient rebars at the slab/column junctions and total separation of concrete from rebar. All pointing to potential construction defects.
> > There are no such reports. That bit of misinformation comes from Kilsheimer speculatively talking to NYT reporters, none of it is fact. The forensics evidence is buried under 40 ft of rubble and is therefore unavailable as yet. And when they get in the vicinity of the broken slab and critical 3-column failure that caused the south facade to collapse, they need to treat it as an archeological dig with kid gloves.
> > From what I see, the building was constructed to specification and it was a job well done. The design had a major flaw in water management at the pool deck, and the maintenance was bad.
> From the picture of the columns still standing, there are two rebars sticking out. The plan called for four, in the middle of the column. The outer two rebar might be placed too far out of the column and sheared off. So, technically, only two supporting the slab/column join.
>
> The columns seem to broke off at the third floor, still intact at the second (pool) slab.

The critical failure was the slab that formed the garage ceiling. That part is buried and not visible. The rebar reinforcement being talked about is the usual double reinforcement of the slab in the vicinity of its supporting column, not the column steel. The rebar at that location is actually set a distance from the column. It's purpose is to prevent angular stress cracks that form in the slab from bottom to top at about 60o off horizontal, and prevent a shear (perpendicular to slab cross-section) failure. First Kilsheimer speculated that the rebar was not the specified size (cross-section), then he said the cement was weak, not a proper mix (one of his favorite failure modes), then he said the shear failure double reinforcement was not done. How he would know any of that without getting his hands on it is anyone's guess. None of that is true. The building was constructed to specification.

On Tuesday, July 6, 2021 at 12:10:32 PM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
> On Tue, 6 Jul 2021 08:09:22 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
> <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Monday, July 5, 2021 at 12:30:48 PM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
> >> On Sat, 3 Jul 2021 12:12:46 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
> >> <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >Look at this unholy mess near LA:
> >> >https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I84IKGgPlZQ
> >> >Almost as bad as Florida.
> >> >
> >> >Miami Beach condemned one atrocity and gave the residents 12 hours to pack their belongings and evacuate. More than a few others have been partially condemned. One aged joke building in Volusia County has rebar rust stains running the entire 5 story height of the building- do ya think their might be corrosion there? Residents from all over are posting video of exposed rebar and cracked columns, losing sleep over a possible imminent collapse, running the local building inspectors ragged.
> >> >
> >> >"that kind of degradation could lead to collapse."
> >> >
> >> >"Buildings don't fall down, ninny. Chicken Little!"
> >> >
> >> >Too funny. The age of mindless alpha male denial is coming to an end.
> >> "Scared to death" is a common theme these days. The very concept is
> >> absurd.
> >>
> >> Hundreds of years ago, when death was far more probable, people
> >> weren't so frightened.
> >>
> >> Your chances of dying in a building collapse in the USA is parts per
> >> million. But people still drive cars and smoke substances and get fat
> >> and lazy.
> >>
> >> The age of mindless wussy male neurotics is here.
> >>
> >
> >Surfside catastrophe raises concerns about San Francisco's sinking Millennium Tower
> >https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/05/us/san-francisco-millennium-tower-sinking/index.html
> It's just tilting a little. The big concern is how ugly it is.
> Unfortunately, it will be fixed.
> --
>
> John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
>
> The best designs are necessarily accidental.

18 inches is a huge settlement- and unlikely to be even. Last I read the underpinning project with new piers was $200M. It would have been so much easier to do it right the first time. It takes an unimaginable lack of judgment and idiocy to use an experimental pier technology on a building of that size. Experiments are reserved for cheap builds if at all.

On Monday, July 5, 2021 at 7:47:30 PM UTC-7, Ed Lee wrote:
> On Monday, July 5, 2021 at 7:21:37 PM UTC-7, Phil Hobbs wrote:
> > dca...@krl.org wrote:

> > Chloride ion from salt eats the concrete irrespective of the condition
> > of the steel. Concrete breakwaters and so on are made from very
> > low-porosity concrete, which slows that process down by a lot, but
> > AFAICT nobody builds buildings with that stuff.

> Not sure if the reported water damages are from seawater, or just rain, or from the pool. The building doesn't seem to be too close to the sea.

The water table under much of Florida is salt water (porous coral geology). So,
in a storm surge, salt water rises from the ground into basements and onto streets...

Chlorinated pool water may have been the major problem in this case, if the
reported 'pool deck' breakage was the initiating event.

On Tue, 6 Jul 2021 10:37:11 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
<bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, July 6, 2021 at 12:10:32 PM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>> On Tue, 6 Jul 2021 08:09:22 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
>> <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Monday, July 5, 2021 at 12:30:48 PM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>> >> On Sat, 3 Jul 2021 12:12:46 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
>> >> <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >Look at this unholy mess near LA:
>> >> >https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I84IKGgPlZQ
>> >> >Almost as bad as Florida.
>> >> >
>> >> >Miami Beach condemned one atrocity and gave the residents 12 hours to pack their belongings and evacuate. More than a few others have been partially condemned. One aged joke building in Volusia County has rebar rust stains running the entire 5 story height of the building- do ya think their might be corrosion there? Residents from all over are posting video of exposed rebar and cracked columns, losing sleep over a possible imminent collapse, running the local building inspectors ragged.
>> >> >
>> >> >"that kind of degradation could lead to collapse."
>> >> >
>> >> >"Buildings don't fall down, ninny. Chicken Little!"
>> >> >
>> >> >Too funny. The age of mindless alpha male denial is coming to an end.
>> >> "Scared to death" is a common theme these days. The very concept is
>> >> absurd.
>> >>
>> >> Hundreds of years ago, when death was far more probable, people
>> >> weren't so frightened.
>> >>
>> >> Your chances of dying in a building collapse in the USA is parts per
>> >> million. But people still drive cars and smoke substances and get fat
>> >> and lazy.
>> >>
>> >> The age of mindless wussy male neurotics is here.
>> >>
>> >
>> >Surfside catastrophe raises concerns about San Francisco's sinking Millennium Tower
>> >https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/05/us/san-francisco-millennium-tower-sinking/index.html
>> It's just tilting a little. The big concern is how ugly it is.
>> Unfortunately, it will be fixed.
>> --
>>
>> John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
>>
>> The best designs are necessarily accidental.
>
>18 inches is a huge settlement- and unlikely to be even. Last I read the underpinning project with new piers was $200M. It would have been so much easier to do it right the first time. It takes an unimaginable lack of judgment and idiocy to use an experimental pier technology on a building of that size. Experiments are reserved for cheap builds if at all.

Most engineering things have a real-life feedback loop. Things have to
go wrong before standards and enforcement ensure that they won't go
wrong again.

Newer buildings here are anchored on bedrock. Lesson learned.

There are places where driving down to bedrock just isn't possible.
New Orleans. Venice.

Ed Lee wrote:
> On Monday, July 5, 2021 at 7:21:37 PM UTC-7, Phil Hobbs wrote:
>> dca...@krl.org wrote:
>>>
>>>> Insurance companies will be reviewing their liab. policy. If it includes construction defects, premiums will be much higher. If the design failed to account for load margin with corrosion, it's also construction defect. They have been building concrete buildings in FL for decades, they should know rebar corrode.
>>>
>>> Stainless rebar is available. But that is a fairly new thing.
>>>
>>> Dan
>>>
>> Chloride ion from salt eats the concrete irrespective of the condition
>> of the steel. Concrete breakwaters and so on are made from very
>> low-porosity concrete, which slows that process down by a lot, but
>> AFAICT nobody builds buildings with that stuff.
>
> Not sure if the reported water damages are from seawater, or just rain, or from the pool. The building doesn't seem to be too close to the sea.
>

The pool guy reported talking to a janitor who said that the garage
flooded with sea water so often that they had to replace the pumps every
couple of years. Surfside is on a barrier island, so there's no
groundwater flow from the mainland to keep the salt water out of the
soil. Dunno if it retains enough rainwater to do that reliably.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

On Wed, 7 Jul 2021 05:35:48 -0400, Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

>Ed Lee wrote:
>> On Monday, July 5, 2021 at 7:21:37 PM UTC-7, Phil Hobbs wrote:
>>> dca...@krl.org wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Insurance companies will be reviewing their liab. policy. If it includes construction defects, premiums will be much higher. If the design failed to account for load margin with corrosion, it's also construction defect. They have been building concrete buildings in FL for decades, they should know rebar corrode.
>>>>
>>>> Stainless rebar is available. But that is a fairly new thing.
>>>>
>>>> Dan
>>>>
>>> Chloride ion from salt eats the concrete irrespective of the condition
>>> of the steel. Concrete breakwaters and so on are made from very
>>> low-porosity concrete, which slows that process down by a lot, but
>>> AFAICT nobody builds buildings with that stuff.
>>
>> Not sure if the reported water damages are from seawater, or just rain, or from the pool. The building doesn't seem to be too close to the sea.
>>
>
>The pool guy reported talking to a janitor who said that the garage
>flooded with sea water so often that they had to replace the pumps every
>couple of years. Surfside is on a barrier island, so there's no
>groundwater flow from the mainland to keep the salt water out of the
>soil. Dunno if it retains enough rainwater to do that reliably.
>
>Cheers
>
>Phil Hobbs

People are building expensive things on beaches, islands, sandy
places, filled swamps that are vulnerable to tides and subsidance and
corrosion and storms. When they get trashed, they blame climate
change, collect insurance, and rebuild.

Out west, we have a similar effect, only with fires.

--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

The best designs are necessarily accidental.