Le 08/07/2021 à 01:51, Tom Gardner a écrit :
> This is an interesting study, since they compared MRI scans of the
> brain of many people, before and after having covid.
> Obviously the availability of pre-infection imaging data helps
> avoid the danger of pre-existing risk factors or clinical
> conditions being mis-interpreted as disease effects.

OTOH, it looks rather clear that Covid has caused significant changes in
many people's brain, even those that were never actually infected. :)

On Fri, 9 Jul 2021 19:13:56 +0200, Guillaume <message@bottle.org>
wrote:

>Le 08/07/2021 à 01:51, Tom Gardner a écrit :
>> This is an interesting study, since they compared MRI scans of the
>> brain of many people, before and after having covid.
>> Obviously the availability of pre-infection imaging data helps
>> avoid the danger of pre-existing risk factors or clinical
>> conditions being mis-interpreted as disease effects.
>
>OTOH, it looks rather clear that Covid has caused significant changes in
>many people's brain, even those that were never actually infected. :)

Yes. Years of panic-level fear can't be healthy.

Some people will alter their behavior for the rest of their lives.
Some will wear masks forever. Maybe they will stay at home and free up
some parking.

On Friday, July 9, 2021 at 10:48:23 AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:

> Yes. Years of panic-level fear can't be healthy.

Depends. Fear is normal for prey animals, and 'panic-level' just indicates
adrenaline (which is ALSO useful) response.

> Some people will alter their behavior for the rest of their lives.

You can shorten that to 'Some people will learn'.
And you could add, 'Some people won't learn'.

On 7/9/2021 20:48, John Larkin wrote:
> On Fri, 9 Jul 2021 19:13:56 +0200, Guillaume <message@bottle.org>
> wrote:
>
>> Le 08/07/2021 à 01:51, Tom Gardner a écrit :
>>> This is an interesting study, since they compared MRI scans of the
>>> brain of many people, before and after having covid.
>>> Obviously the availability of pre-infection imaging data helps
>>> avoid the danger of pre-existing risk factors or clinical
>>> conditions being mis-interpreted as disease effects.
>>
>> OTOH, it looks rather clear that Covid has caused significant changes in
>> many people's brain, even those that were never actually infected. :)
>
> Yes. Years of panic-level fear can't be healthy.
>
> Some people will alter their behavior for the rest of their lives.
> Some will wear masks forever. Maybe they will stay at home and free up
> some parking.
>
>
>

Wearing masks in closed spaces full of people is more hygienic, with
or without a pandemic.
However it works if the vast majority of the people are willing
to protect the others - and thus hope to be protected themselves - from
the various seasonal infections, which may be not as deadly but are
disruptive and unpleasant all right. Given the not so receding number
of people keen to look different by not complying to such an
easy to do requirement chances are we'll be back to prepandemic
figures of flu, running noses etc. colds before we know.

Dimiter

On Fri, 9 Jul 2021 11:03:06 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Friday, July 9, 2021 at 10:48:23 AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
>
>> Yes. Years of panic-level fear can't be healthy.
>
>Depends. Fear is normal for prey animals, and 'panic-level' just indicates
>adrenaline (which is ALSO useful) response.
>
>> Some people will alter their behavior for the rest of their lives.
>
>You can shorten that to 'Some people will learn'.
>And you could add, 'Some people won't learn'.

And "Some people are wusses."

On 09/07/21 18:13, Guillaume wrote:
> Le 08/07/2021 à 01:51, Tom Gardner a écrit :
>> This is an interesting study, since they compared MRI scans of the
>> brain of many people, before and after having covid.
>> Obviously the availability of pre-infection imaging data helps
>> avoid the danger of pre-existing risk factors or clinical
>> conditions being mis-interpreted as disease effects.
>
> OTOH, it looks rather clear that Covid has caused significant changes in many
> people's brain, even those that were never actually infected. :)

Evidence from an MRI scan (or similar solid data)? :)

On Fri, 9 Jul 2021 21:04:30 +0300, Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com>
wrote:

>On 7/9/2021 20:48, John Larkin wrote:
>> On Fri, 9 Jul 2021 19:13:56 +0200, Guillaume <message@bottle.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Le 08/07/2021 à 01:51, Tom Gardner a écrit :
>>>> This is an interesting study, since they compared MRI scans of the
>>>> brain of many people, before and after having covid.
>>>> Obviously the availability of pre-infection imaging data helps
>>>> avoid the danger of pre-existing risk factors or clinical
>>>> conditions being mis-interpreted as disease effects.
>>>
>>> OTOH, it looks rather clear that Covid has caused significant changes in
>>> many people's brain, even those that were never actually infected. :)
>>
>> Yes. Years of panic-level fear can't be healthy.
>>
>> Some people will alter their behavior for the rest of their lives.
>> Some will wear masks forever. Maybe they will stay at home and free up
>> some parking.
>>
>>
>>
>
>Wearing masks in closed spaces full of people is more hygienic, with
>or without a pandemic.
>However it works if the vast majority of the people are willing
>to protect the others - and thus hope to be protected themselves - from
>the various seasonal infections, which may be not as deadly but are
>disruptive and unpleasant all right. Given the not so receding number
>of people keen to look different by not complying to such an
>easy to do requirement chances are we'll be back to prepandemic
>figures of flu, running noses etc. colds before we know.
>
>Dimiter
>
>

Colds confer immunity against other colds. So isolation probably means
a person will get fewer and more severe colds.

A population that hasn't had any colds for a decade or so would be
fuel for a wildfire; one spark will set it off.

Vaccines are the proper solution to this dilemma.

On 7/9/2021 22:04, John Larkin wrote:
> On Fri, 9 Jul 2021 21:04:30 +0300, Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 7/9/2021 20:48, John Larkin wrote:
>>> On Fri, 9 Jul 2021 19:13:56 +0200, Guillaume <message@bottle.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Le 08/07/2021 à 01:51, Tom Gardner a écrit :
>>>>> This is an interesting study, since they compared MRI scans of the
>>>>> brain of many people, before and after having covid.
>>>>> Obviously the availability of pre-infection imaging data helps
>>>>> avoid the danger of pre-existing risk factors or clinical
>>>>> conditions being mis-interpreted as disease effects.
>>>>
>>>> OTOH, it looks rather clear that Covid has caused significant changes in
>>>> many people's brain, even those that were never actually infected. :)
>>>
>>> Yes. Years of panic-level fear can't be healthy.
>>>
>>> Some people will alter their behavior for the rest of their lives.
>>> Some will wear masks forever. Maybe they will stay at home and free up
>>> some parking.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Wearing masks in closed spaces full of people is more hygienic, with
>> or without a pandemic.
>> However it works if the vast majority of the people are willing
>> to protect the others - and thus hope to be protected themselves - from
>> the various seasonal infections, which may be not as deadly but are
>> disruptive and unpleasant all right. Given the not so receding number
>> of people keen to look different by not complying to such an
>> easy to do requirement chances are we'll be back to prepandemic
>> figures of flu, running noses etc. colds before we know.
>>
>> Dimiter
>>
>>
>
> Colds confer immunity against other colds. So isolation probably means
> a person will get fewer and more severe colds.
>
> A population that hasn't had any colds for a decade or so would be
> fuel for a wildfire; one spark will set it off.
>
> Vaccines are the proper solution to this dilemma.
>

Oh reducing colds and flu infections by a factor of 2 or 3 because of
better hygiene achievable by such a cheap way like people wearing a mask
when needed won't reduce anybody's immune response. Most people have
had years without a single cold and years with more than one.
Suggesting "keep on eating shit so you can tolerate it when you
are served it" is not the brightest of all ideas, I can assure you.

If only people who want to demonstrate courage they do not have
by not wearing a mask in crowded spaces were fewer the work hours lost
because of being ill would drop at least by a half.

Vaccines against colds - good luck with that one.
I am not so sure I like the idea of people spitting in my face because
they are vaccinated but well, it is a personal preference I suppose.

Dimiter

On 7/9/2021 12:04 PM, John Larkin wrote:
> Colds confer immunity against other colds. So isolation probably means
> a person will get fewer and more severe colds.
>
> A population that hasn't had any colds for a decade or so would be
> fuel for a wildfire; one spark will set it off.
>
> Vaccines are the proper solution to this dilemma.

Wow, it's obvious that you're not an epidemiologist!

Do you sleep with HIV infected people to protect yourself from HIV/AIDS?

You catch a cold from fomites transfered from an infected person
*to* a surface that you later come in contact with and then transfer
to your mucous membrane(s).

Or, from particles aspirated when an infected person speaks, coughs or sneezes
being inhaled or otherwise transfered to your mucosa.

I've not had a cold in *years* (touch wood) -- because I avoid people who
have colds! By your reason, when/if I next contract one, I will
likely DIE because my body will be so completely unprepared for
this HOSTILE virus!

<rolls eyes>

Do you think health care professionals (prepandemic) wear masks because
they want to LOOK COOL? By your reasoning, they should eagerly SHARE
anything that they've been exposed to with EVERYONE that they come in contact
with TO BETTER PREPARE THOSE FOLKS FOR THESE BUGS, LATER!

On Fri, 9 Jul 2021 14:49:10 -0700, Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid>
wrote:

>On 7/9/2021 12:04 PM, John Larkin wrote:
>> Colds confer immunity against other colds. So isolation probably means
>> a person will get fewer and more severe colds.
>>
>> A population that hasn't had any colds for a decade or so would be
>> fuel for a wildfire; one spark will set it off.
>>
>> Vaccines are the proper solution to this dilemma.
>
>Wow, it's obvious that you're not an epidemiologist!
>
>Do you sleep with HIV infected people to protect yourself from HIV/AIDS?
>
>You catch a cold from fomites transfered from an infected person
>*to* a surface that you later come in contact with and then transfer
>to your mucous membrane(s).
>
>Or, from particles aspirated when an infected person speaks, coughs or sneezes
>being inhaled or otherwise transfered to your mucosa.
>
>I've not had a cold in *years* (touch wood) -- because I avoid people who
>have colds! By your reason, when/if I next contract one, I will
>likely DIE because my body will be so completely unprepared for
>this HOSTILE virus!
>
><rolls eyes>
>
>Do you think health care professionals (prepandemic) wear masks because
>they want to LOOK COOL? By your reasoning, they should eagerly SHARE
>anything that they've been exposed to with EVERYONE that they come in contact
>with TO BETTER PREPARE THOSE FOLKS FOR THESE BUGS, LATER!

OK, wear a mask everywhere for the rest of your life.

Stay out of restaurants and supermarkets and bars and classrooms too.
Can't be too careful!

On 7/9/2021 5:49 PM, John Larkin wrote:
> On Fri, 9 Jul 2021 14:49:10 -0700, Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> On 7/9/2021 12:04 PM, John Larkin wrote:
>>> Colds confer immunity against other colds. So isolation probably means
>>> a person will get fewer and more severe colds.
>>>
>>> A population that hasn't had any colds for a decade or so would be
>>> fuel for a wildfire; one spark will set it off.
>>>
>>> Vaccines are the proper solution to this dilemma.
>>
>> Wow, it's obvious that you're not an epidemiologist!
>>
>> Do you sleep with HIV infected people to protect yourself from HIV/AIDS?
>>
>> You catch a cold from fomites transfered from an infected person
>> *to* a surface that you later come in contact with and then transfer
>> to your mucous membrane(s).
>>
>> Or, from particles aspirated when an infected person speaks, coughs or sneezes
>> being inhaled or otherwise transfered to your mucosa.
>>
>> I've not had a cold in *years* (touch wood) -- because I avoid people who
>> have colds! By your reason, when/if I next contract one, I will
>> likely DIE because my body will be so completely unprepared for
>> this HOSTILE virus!
>>
>> <rolls eyes>
>>
>> Do you think health care professionals (prepandemic) wear masks because
>> they want to LOOK COOL? By your reasoning, they should eagerly SHARE
>> anything that they've been exposed to with EVERYONE that they come in contact
>> with TO BETTER PREPARE THOSE FOLKS FOR THESE BUGS, LATER!
>
> OK, wear a mask everywhere for the rest of your life.

Binary thinking, eh? Doesn't seem to be indicative of very sophisticated
thinking process!

> Stay out of restaurants and supermarkets and bars and classrooms too.
> Can't be too careful!

Snarky remarks? Gee, John, you sure don't like your OPINIONS being
challenged, do you? Advice: get a job in one of the marshmallow "sciences"
(psychology) where you can have damn near any opinion you want and feel
safe hiding behind it! (in the hard sciences, things have to be *proven*)

How's that gesture recognizer circuit coming? I'll be curious to see how many
actives you've got, how much board space it takes, how big a supply and,
of course, if it actually *works*!

Please hurry! I'd like to see how you'll tackle the speech synthesizer,
the haptic display, the speaker identifier and speech recognizer! I can't
WAIT to see your design prowess in action!! All without ropes or sticks!
Gonna be AMAZING!!!

On 7/9/2021 2:30 PM, Dimiter_Popoff wrote:
> On 7/9/2021 22:04, John Larkin wrote:
>> On Fri, 9 Jul 2021 21:04:30 +0300, Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 7/9/2021 20:48, John Larkin wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 9 Jul 2021 19:13:56 +0200, Guillaume <message@bottle.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Le 08/07/2021 à 01:51, Tom Gardner a écrit :
>>>>>> This is an interesting study, since they compared MRI scans of the
>>>>>> brain of many people, before and after having covid.
>>>>>> Obviously the availability of pre-infection imaging data helps
>>>>>> avoid the danger of pre-existing risk factors or clinical
>>>>>> conditions being mis-interpreted as disease effects.
>>>>>
>>>>> OTOH, it looks rather clear that Covid has caused significant changes in
>>>>> many people's brain, even those that were never actually infected. :)
>>>>
>>>> Yes. Years of panic-level fear can't be healthy.
>>>>
>>>> Some people will alter their behavior for the rest of their lives.
>>>> Some will wear masks forever. Maybe they will stay at home and free up
>>>> some parking.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Wearing masks in closed spaces full of people is more hygienic, with
>>> or without a pandemic.
>>> However it works if the vast majority of the people are willing
>>> to protect the others - and thus hope to be protected themselves - from
>>> the various seasonal infections, which may be not as deadly but are
>>> disruptive and unpleasant all right. Given the not so receding number
>>> of people keen to look different by not complying to such an
>>> easy to do requirement chances are we'll be back to prepandemic
>>> figures of flu, running noses etc. colds before we know.
>>>
>>> Dimiter
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Colds confer immunity against other colds. So isolation probably means
>> a person will get fewer and more severe colds.
>>
>> A population that hasn't had any colds for a decade or so would be
>> fuel for a wildfire; one spark will set it off.
>>
>> Vaccines are the proper solution to this dilemma.
>
> Oh reducing colds and flu infections by a factor of 2 or 3 because of
> better hygiene achievable by such a cheap way like people wearing a mask
> when needed won't reduce anybody's immune response. Most people have
> had years without a single cold and years with more than one.

Just because you didn't "get sick" today doesn't mean your immune
system wasn't *challenged*. It's not like it's ON or OFF and
"on" is indicated only when it allows a pathogen to get a foothold!

> Suggesting "keep on eating shit so you can tolerate it when you
> are served it" is not the brightest of all ideas, I can assure you.

It ensures you will always be sick -- so, you'll never "get" sick
(as you'll never have recovered!)

> If only people who want to demonstrate courage they do not have
> by not wearing a mask in crowded spaces were fewer the work hours lost
> because of being ill would drop at least by a half.

I've advocated the covid deniers start helping out in hospitals to
ease the burden on health care workers. Heck, we can even PAY them
to do so (clean bedpans, change bed linens, run errands, etc -- anything
to take some mundane task off of a provider's plate!)

> Vaccines against colds - good luck with that one.
> I am not so sure I like the idea of people spitting in my face because
> they are vaccinated but well, it is a personal preference I suppose.

The sad part is that folks who have been told they could drop the mask
(as a "reward" for getting vaccinated) will feel betrayed when the
old mitigations come back (lock downs, business closures, masking
requirements, etc.).

Perhaps we need to make it *harder* for folks to get a vaccine so
they need to pursue it more aggressively? ("As the US has all
of this EXCESS vaccine that folks don't want, we've decided to
donate it to other countries... Hereafter, contact your family
physician if you want a vaccination and he can request doses
from the federal government -- a week or two delayed")

Le 09/07/2021 à 20:03, whit3rd a écrit :
> On Friday, July 9, 2021 at 10:48:23 AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
>
>> Yes. Years of panic-level fear can't be healthy.
>
> Depends. Fear is normal for prey animals, and 'panic-level' just indicates
> adrenaline (which is ALSO useful) response.

That's stress. Stress is useful in emergency situations indeed. But it
was never meant to be chronic and unresolved. Normal stress you're
mentioning is acute and supposed to help you quickly get out of the
stressful situation.

We now know pretty well the deleterious effects of chronic stress on
human's health in our current modern society. This isn't good.

On Sat, 10 Jul 2021 00:30:24 +0300, Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com>
wrote:

>On 7/9/2021 22:04, John Larkin wrote:
>> On Fri, 9 Jul 2021 21:04:30 +0300, Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 7/9/2021 20:48, John Larkin wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 9 Jul 2021 19:13:56 +0200, Guillaume <message@bottle.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Le 08/07/2021 à 01:51, Tom Gardner a écrit :
>>>>>> This is an interesting study, since they compared MRI scans of the
>>>>>> brain of many people, before and after having covid.
>>>>>> Obviously the availability of pre-infection imaging data helps
>>>>>> avoid the danger of pre-existing risk factors or clinical
>>>>>> conditions being mis-interpreted as disease effects.
>>>>>
>>>>> OTOH, it looks rather clear that Covid has caused significant changes in
>>>>> many people's brain, even those that were never actually infected. :)
>>>>
>>>> Yes. Years of panic-level fear can't be healthy.
>>>>
>>>> Some people will alter their behavior for the rest of their lives.
>>>> Some will wear masks forever. Maybe they will stay at home and free up
>>>> some parking.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Wearing masks in closed spaces full of people is more hygienic, with
>>> or without a pandemic.
>>> However it works if the vast majority of the people are willing
>>> to protect the others - and thus hope to be protected themselves - from
>>> the various seasonal infections, which may be not as deadly but are
>>> disruptive and unpleasant all right. Given the not so receding number
>>> of people keen to look different by not complying to such an
>>> easy to do requirement chances are we'll be back to prepandemic
>>> figures of flu, running noses etc. colds before we know.
>>>
>>> Dimiter
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Colds confer immunity against other colds. So isolation probably means
>> a person will get fewer and more severe colds.
>>
>> A population that hasn't had any colds for a decade or so would be
>> fuel for a wildfire; one spark will set it off.
>>
>> Vaccines are the proper solution to this dilemma.
>>
>
>Oh reducing colds and flu infections by a factor of 2 or 3 because of
>better hygiene achievable by such a cheap way like people wearing a mask
>when needed won't reduce anybody's immune response. Most people have
>had years without a single cold and years with more than one.
>Suggesting "keep on eating shit so you can tolerate it when you
>are served it" is not the brightest of all ideas, I can assure you.
>
>If only people who want to demonstrate courage they do not have
>by not wearing a mask in crowded spaces were fewer the work hours lost
>because of being ill would drop at least by a half.
>
>Vaccines against colds - good luck with that one.
>I am not so sure I like the idea of people spitting in my face because
>they are vaccinated but well, it is a personal preference I suppose.
>
>Dimiter

The original rationale for masks, the cough/fomite/touch-a-surface/
touch-your-eyes/six-foot-radius thing has been, what's the word,
deprecated. The viruses seem to be tiny particles that float all over
the place for hours. They rarely see the weave of the cloth mask as
they cruise through.

--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

The best designs are necessarily accidental.

On Sat, 10 Jul 2021 04:05:12 +0200, Guillaume <message@bottle.org>
wrote:

>Le 09/07/2021 à 20:03, whit3rd a écrit :
>> On Friday, July 9, 2021 at 10:48:23 AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
>>
>>> Yes. Years of panic-level fear can't be healthy.
>>
>> Depends. Fear is normal for prey animals, and 'panic-level' just indicates
>> adrenaline (which is ALSO useful) response.
>
>That's stress. Stress is useful in emergency situations indeed. But it
>was never meant to be chronic and unresolved. Normal stress you're
>mentioning is acute and supposed to help you quickly get out of the
>stressful situation.
>
>We now know pretty well the deleterious effects of chronic stress on
>human's health in our current modern society. This isn't good.

What's ironic is that we live in a world that is far safer than the
ones our ancestors evolved in, but we seem to be more afraid.

The fear is an evolutionary, vestigial legacy.

Maybe it's like kids who get allergies because their houses are too
clean, an immune AGC thing.

--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

The best designs are necessarily accidental.

On Friday, July 9, 2021 at 3:04:49 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
> On Fri, 9 Jul 2021 21:04:30 +0300, Dimiter_Popoff <d...@tgi-sci.com>
> wrote:
> >On 7/9/2021 20:48, John Larkin wrote:
> >> On Fri, 9 Jul 2021 19:13:56 +0200, Guillaume <mes...@bottle.org>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Le 08/07/2021 à 01:51, Tom Gardner a écrit :
> >>>> This is an interesting study, since they compared MRI scans of the
> >>>> brain of many people, before and after having covid.
> >>>> Obviously the availability of pre-infection imaging data helps
> >>>> avoid the danger of pre-existing risk factors or clinical
> >>>> conditions being mis-interpreted as disease effects.
> >>>
> >>> OTOH, it looks rather clear that Covid has caused significant changes in
> >>> many people's brain, even those that were never actually infected. :)
> >>
> >> Yes. Years of panic-level fear can't be healthy.
> >>
> >> Some people will alter their behavior for the rest of their lives.
> >> Some will wear masks forever. Maybe they will stay at home and free up
> >> some parking.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Wearing masks in closed spaces full of people is more hygienic, with
> >or without a pandemic.
> >However it works if the vast majority of the people are willing
> >to protect the others - and thus hope to be protected themselves - from
> >the various seasonal infections, which may be not as deadly but are
> >disruptive and unpleasant all right. Given the not so receding number
> >of people keen to look different by not complying to such an
> >easy to do requirement chances are we'll be back to prepandemic
> >figures of flu, running noses etc. colds before we know.
> >
> >Dimiter
> >
> >
> Colds confer immunity against other colds. So isolation probably means
> a person will get fewer and more severe colds.
>
> A population that hasn't had any colds for a decade or so would be
> fuel for a wildfire; one spark will set it off.
>
> Vaccines are the proper solution to this dilemma.

Amazing how little understanding is contained in such statements. Colds vary for the same reason COVID varies, people get infected and with a large enough base of infections new strains develop. If cold pandemics are prevented globally, as we are attempting to do with COVID, there will be little mutation and colds won't spread like wildfire.

With colds, it's not like there's really much difference in the harm they do from year to year. So not having a cold for a decade or two does not make you vulnerable in dangerous ways when you finally catch a cold. I wish we could say the same for COVID. We don't have much evidence as yet, but the newer, more infectious strains appear to be capable of causing more harm and in a wider segment of the population.

I was looking at state by state data in the US and it seems the increasing infection rates are pretty widespread. Many reports seem to be saying it is a few states with low vaccination rates that are causing the uptick in numbers at the national level, but many states are seeing and upswing in the last week or two. Some smaller, but clear, while others are very pronounced with up to 200% increases.

Sure, vaccinations help a lot, but since we have so many idiots who refuse to be vaccinated we need to continue with the masks and distancing.

--

Rick C.

-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Friday, July 9, 2021 at 11:05:42 AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
> On Fri, 9 Jul 2021 11:03:06 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >On Friday, July 9, 2021 at 10:48:23 AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
> >
> >> Yes. Years of panic-level fear can't be healthy.
> >
> >Depends. Fear is normal for prey animals, and 'panic-level' just indicates
> >adrenaline (which is ALSO useful) response.
> >
> >> Some people will alter their behavior for the rest of their lives.
> >
> >You can shorten that to 'Some people will learn'.
> >And you could add, 'Some people won't learn'.

> And "Some people are wusses."

Some people are dismissive. Learning is defined by change of behavior,
and it's vitally important to a human (with a long lifespan) not to waste those
years of experience. That's just common sense.

"Experience keeps a dear school, but fools will learn in
no other" -- Ben Franklin

On Friday, July 9, 2021 at 7:16:55 PM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

> The original rationale for masks, the cough/fomite/touch-a-surface/
> touch-your-eyes/six-foot-radius thing has been, what's the word,
> deprecated. The viruses seem to be tiny particles that float all over
> the place for hours. They rarely see the weave of the cloth mask as
> they cruise through.

How hopelessly naiive. The viruses ARE tiny, but cannot travel alone, only occasionally
tagging along with aspirated small droplets of moisture. Stopping most of those droplets
is better than stopping none, and the smallest ones are less likely to carry a viable
virus than the largest.

Van der Waals forces mean that the smallest particles DO stick to nearby fibers rather than pass
by. It ain't a noninteracting dilute gas.

On Saturday, July 10, 2021 at 12:22:38 PM UTC+10, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
> On Sat, 10 Jul 2021 04:05:12 +0200, Guillaume <mes...@bottle.org>
> wrote:
> >Le 09/07/2021 à 20:03, whit3rd a écrit :
> >> On Friday, July 9, 2021 at 10:48:23 AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
> >>
> >>> Yes. Years of panic-level fear can't be healthy.
> >>
> >> Depends. Fear is normal for prey animals, and 'panic-level' just indicates adrenaline (which is ALSO useful) response.
> >
> >That's stress. Stress is useful in emergency situations indeed. But it was never meant to be chronic and unresolved.
> > Normal stress you're mentioning is acute and supposed to help you quickly get out of the stressful situation.
> >
> >We now know pretty well the deleterious effects of chronic stress on human's health in our current modern society. This isn't good.
> What's ironic is that we live in a world that is far safer than the ones our ancestors evolved in, but we seem to be more afraid.

Being more knowledgeable gives us more things to be afraid of. John Larkin doesn't know much (and much of what he thinks he knows is wrong) and glories in his ignorance.
> The fear is an evolutionary, vestigial legacy.

The capacity to feel fear evolved for a reason. We now have different things that we need to be careful about, but the mechanism that concentrates our attention on aspects of environment is still extremely useful and anything but vestigial.

> Maybe it's like kids who get allergies because their houses are too clean, an immune AGC thing.

Probably not.

https://www.aihw.gov.au/reports/australias-health/causes-of-death

The leading cause of death in Australia for people aged between 25 and 44 is suicide. If people were frightened of getting depressed enough to kill themselves, they might get help earlier.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

On 7/9/2021 7:38 PM, whit3rd wrote:
> On Friday, July 9, 2021 at 7:16:55 PM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>
>> The original rationale for masks, the cough/fomite/touch-a-surface/
>> touch-your-eyes/six-foot-radius thing has been, what's the word,
>> deprecated. The viruses seem to be tiny particles that float all over
>> the place for hours. They rarely see the weave of the cloth mask as
>> they cruise through.
>
> How hopelessly naiive. The viruses ARE tiny, but cannot travel alone, only occasionally
> tagging along with aspirated small droplets of moisture. Stopping most of those droplets
> is better than stopping none, and the smallest ones are less likely to carry a viable
> virus than the largest.
>
> Van der Waals forces mean that the smallest particles DO stick to nearby fibers rather than pass
> by. It ain't a noninteracting dilute gas.

This is why non-woven materials are superior to cloth -- there's no "straight
through" path that avoids the mask material (as is more likely in a woven
fabric)

And, there's nothing stopping you from wearing an N95 mask! If they offer
*better* protection for healthcare workers (which was the reason behind
DISCOURAGING widespread consumption when the supply was inadequate), then
they will likely afford better protection for average folk, too -- assuming,
of course, you know how to fit a mask and don't just slap something over
your mouth/nose!

I feel sorry for all the low-end wage earners doing menial jobs (supermarkets,
restaurants, etc.) where they are stuck wearing a possibly ineffective face
covering for many hours at a time, several days in a row!

(health care workers are exposed to infectious agents ALL DAY LONG; how many
hours do you spend out in public among "people of uncertain health/vaccination
status?)

On Saturday, July 10, 2021 at 5:04:49 AM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
> On Fri, 9 Jul 2021 21:04:30 +0300, Dimiter_Popoff <d...@tgi-sci.com>
> wrote:
> >On 7/9/2021 20:48, John Larkin wrote:
> >> On Fri, 9 Jul 2021 19:13:56 +0200, Guillaume <mes...@bottle.org>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Le 08/07/2021 à 01:51, Tom Gardner a écrit :
> >>>> This is an interesting study, since they compared MRI scans of the
> >>>> brain of many people, before and after having covid.
> >>>> Obviously the availability of pre-infection imaging data helps
> >>>> avoid the danger of pre-existing risk factors or clinical
> >>>> conditions being mis-interpreted as disease effects.
> >>>
> >>> OTOH, it looks rather clear that Covid has caused significant changes in
> >>> many people's brain, even those that were never actually infected. :)
> >>
> >> Yes. Years of panic-level fear can't be healthy.

It wouldn't be. But there's no evidence that being realistically anxious about getting infected by Covid-19 looks anything like "panic-level fear". We don't see panic-striken mobs fleeing from somebody who has just sneezed.
> >> Some people will alter their behavior for the rest of their lives.
> >> Some will wear masks forever. Maybe they will stay at home and free up some parking.
> >
> >Wearing masks in closed spaces full of people is more hygienic, with or without a pandemic.
> >However it works if the vast majority of the people are willing to protect the others - and thus hope to be protected themselves - from
> >the various seasonal infections, which may be not as deadly but are disruptive and unpleasant all right.
> >Given the not so receding number of people keen to look different by not complying with such an-easy-to-do requirement chances are we'll be back to pre-pandemic
> >figures of flu, running noses etc. colds before we know.
> >
> Colds confer immunity against other colds.

Some other colds. Viruses can mutate whenever they reproduce, so there are lots of different kinds of cold virus in circulation - about a quarter of them are corona viruses - and eventually they mutate into something that evades the immune response that worked against their ancestor.

> So isolation probably means a person will get fewer and more severe colds.

Why should they be more severe?

> A population that hasn't had any colds for a decade or so would be fuel for a wildfire; one spark will set it off.

If the new virus is unusually infectious. SARS wasn't. SARS-2 - Covid-19 is..

> Vaccines are the proper solution to this dilemma.

You need to know what the infectious agent is before you can develop a vaccine to solve the problem. Early detection of new infections is the critical precaution. Obama and Biden had set that up in the US before Trump came to power, and Trump dismantled it shortly after he moved into the White House.

John Larkin worships Trump, so he hasn't realised that this was a mistake.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

On 10/07/21 03:22, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
> On Sat, 10 Jul 2021 04:05:12 +0200, Guillaume <message@bottle.org>
> wrote:
>
>> Le 09/07/2021 à 20:03, whit3rd a écrit :
>>> On Friday, July 9, 2021 at 10:48:23 AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
>>>
>>>> Yes. Years of panic-level fear can't be healthy.
>>>
>>> Depends. Fear is normal for prey animals, and 'panic-level' just indicates
>>> adrenaline (which is ALSO useful) response.
>>
>> That's stress. Stress is useful in emergency situations indeed. But it
>> was never meant to be chronic and unresolved. Normal stress you're
>> mentioning is acute and supposed to help you quickly get out of the
>> stressful situation.
>>
>> We now know pretty well the deleterious effects of chronic stress on
>> human's health in our current modern society. This isn't good.
>
> What's ironic is that we live in a world that is far safer than the
> ones our ancestors evolved in, but we seem to be more afraid.

In some ways it is far safer, but...

It also is more dangerous in many ways, principally because
we have a far wider range of things we can do and experience.

> The fear is an evolutionary, vestigial legacy.

Evolutionary yes, vestigial no.

> Maybe it's like kids who get allergies because their houses are too
> clean, an immune AGC thing.

That is still, I believe, a hypothesis, albeit an
interesting one.

But analogies are dangerous and often generate more
smoke than light.

On 7/10/2021 5:16, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
> On Sat, 10 Jul 2021 00:30:24 +0300, Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 7/9/2021 22:04, John Larkin wrote:
>>> On Fri, 9 Jul 2021 21:04:30 +0300, Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 7/9/2021 20:48, John Larkin wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 9 Jul 2021 19:13:56 +0200, Guillaume <message@bottle.org>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Le 08/07/2021 à 01:51, Tom Gardner a écrit :
>>>>>>> This is an interesting study, since they compared MRI scans of the
>>>>>>> brain of many people, before and after having covid.
>>>>>>> Obviously the availability of pre-infection imaging data helps
>>>>>>> avoid the danger of pre-existing risk factors or clinical
>>>>>>> conditions being mis-interpreted as disease effects.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> OTOH, it looks rather clear that Covid has caused significant changes in
>>>>>> many people's brain, even those that were never actually infected. :)
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes. Years of panic-level fear can't be healthy.
>>>>>
>>>>> Some people will alter their behavior for the rest of their lives.
>>>>> Some will wear masks forever. Maybe they will stay at home and free up
>>>>> some parking.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Wearing masks in closed spaces full of people is more hygienic, with
>>>> or without a pandemic.
>>>> However it works if the vast majority of the people are willing
>>>> to protect the others - and thus hope to be protected themselves - from
>>>> the various seasonal infections, which may be not as deadly but are
>>>> disruptive and unpleasant all right. Given the not so receding number
>>>> of people keen to look different by not complying to such an
>>>> easy to do requirement chances are we'll be back to prepandemic
>>>> figures of flu, running noses etc. colds before we know.
>>>>
>>>> Dimiter
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Colds confer immunity against other colds. So isolation probably means
>>> a person will get fewer and more severe colds.
>>>
>>> A population that hasn't had any colds for a decade or so would be
>>> fuel for a wildfire; one spark will set it off.
>>>
>>> Vaccines are the proper solution to this dilemma.
>>>
>>
>> Oh reducing colds and flu infections by a factor of 2 or 3 because of
>> better hygiene achievable by such a cheap way like people wearing a mask
>> when needed won't reduce anybody's immune response. Most people have
>> had years without a single cold and years with more than one.
>> Suggesting "keep on eating shit so you can tolerate it when you
>> are served it" is not the brightest of all ideas, I can assure you.
>>
>> If only people who want to demonstrate courage they do not have
>> by not wearing a mask in crowded spaces were fewer the work hours lost
>> because of being ill would drop at least by a half.
>>
>> Vaccines against colds - good luck with that one.
>> I am not so sure I like the idea of people spitting in my face because
>> they are vaccinated but well, it is a personal preference I suppose.
>>
>> Dimiter
>
> The original rationale for masks, the cough/fomite/touch-a-surface/
> touch-your-eyes/six-foot-radius thing has been, what's the word,
> deprecated. The viruses seem to be tiny particles that float all over
> the place for hours. They rarely see the weave of the cloth mask as
> they cruise through.
>
>
>

I would have expected someone with engineering background to not fall
for such an illiterate suggestion made up by liars from political
camps.
Try the following: stand in front of a clean mirror at 10cm distance
and recite out loud for a minute something of your choice.
Look at the part of the mirror in front of your mouth.
Wipe it clean, then put on a mask.
Repeat the reciting exercise from the same distance.
Look at the mirror again.

And *NO*, viruses have neither feet nor wings, the do not float,
fly or walk around. They spread embedded in *droplets*.

Ask yourself why surgeons wear masks during open surgery.

I really cannot believe someone like you can fall for that kind of
outright stupid propaganda.

Dimiter

On Saturday, July 10, 2021 at 7:53:00 PM UTC+10, Dimiter Popoff wrote:
> On 7/10/2021 5:16, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
> > On Sat, 10 Jul 2021 00:30:24 +0300, Dimiter_Popoff <d...@tgi-sci.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> On 7/9/2021 22:04, John Larkin wrote:
> >>> On Fri, 9 Jul 2021 21:04:30 +0300, Dimiter_Popoff <d...@tgi-sci.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On 7/9/2021 20:48, John Larkin wrote:
> >>>>> On Fri, 9 Jul 2021 19:13:56 +0200, Guillaume <mes...@bottle.org>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Le 08/07/2021 à 01:51, Tom Gardner a écrit :

<snip>

> And *NO*, viruses have neither feet nor wings, the do not float,
> fly or walk around. They spread embedded in *droplets*.
>
> Ask yourself why surgeons wear masks during open surgery.
>
> I really cannot believe someone like you can fall for that kind of
> outright stupid propaganda.

John Larkin's stupid opinion about climate change are taken - word-for-work - from stupid climate change denial propaganda. He knows a lot more about electronics than most, but isn't great at understanding what he knows. He looks very like a gullible twit, as I've been pointing out for years now, in what John Larkin perceives as tedious stream of boring insults.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

On 7/10/2021 15:23, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> On Saturday, July 10, 2021 at 7:53:00 PM UTC+10, Dimiter Popoff wrote:
>> On 7/10/2021 5:16, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>> On Sat, 10 Jul 2021 00:30:24 +0300, Dimiter_Popoff <d...@tgi-sci.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 7/9/2021 22:04, John Larkin wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 9 Jul 2021 21:04:30 +0300, Dimiter_Popoff <d...@tgi-sci.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 7/9/2021 20:48, John Larkin wrote:
>>>>>>> On Fri, 9 Jul 2021 19:13:56 +0200, Guillaume <mes...@bottle.org>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Le 08/07/2021 à 01:51, Tom Gardner a écrit :
>
> <snip>
>
>> And *NO*, viruses have neither feet nor wings, the do not float,
>> fly or walk around. They spread embedded in *droplets*.
>>
>> Ask yourself why surgeons wear masks during open surgery.
>>
>> I really cannot believe someone like you can fall for that kind of
>> outright stupid propaganda.
>
> John Larkin's stupid opinion about climate change are taken - word-for-work - from stupid climate change denial propaganda. He knows a lot more about electronics than most, but isn't great at understanding what he knows. He looks very like a gullible twit, as I've been pointing out for years now, in what John Larkin perceives as tedious stream of boring insults.
>

Well I am quite sure calling him "stupid" is just a ridiculous thing
to do. I think I remember him since the CPU32 mailing list of Motorola
SPS, Charlie Melear maintained it back during the 90-s, and I know John
is a smart bloke.
Now why he chooses to stick to obviously stupid propaganda cliches like
that one about the masks and the viruses being so tiny I do not
know, perhaps he just does not want to betray the rest
in his camp to which he wants to belong, but I am quite sure he
knows this particular one is nonsense.

Dimiter